Cardinal direction discussion derail

[Quirk]

While off topic, just thought I'd toss in my thought. How should you be able to look in a direction and not be able to travel in that direction? Also, it shouldn't make any difference at all whether you see a bahamet to the nw or it being nw of your location, as the bahamet would be able to see you at the same time if you were able to see it.

If you see a bahamet on the horizon you can take avoiding action by not going that way. The bahamet however is unlikely to wear itself out pursuing things seen in the far distance. Just because it can see you doesn't mean it will chase you; it's quite possible to see a bahamet in game even without it setting out after you.

I don't think it would be fair to just be able to see the huge thing and run away, without allowing the huge thing to see you and come after you.

You can already see things in the distance without them coming after you. This is perfectly logical, as a predator is not going to waste energy hurrying toward the skyline towards something it saw there.

(What -would- be more likely would be for more hidden, skulking predators to be dotted about the sands; most solitary land-bound predators stalk their prey from cover, even the fast-running ones).

It would be exactly the same if you went west and saw the bahamet to the north, with being able to look(travel) diagonally and seeing a bahamet diagonally. And if you were able to travel diagonally, that still wouldn't solve being able to see huge objects nnw or your location, as if you travel diagonally, you'll still be jumped by the huge thing from the north in the new room anyways.

Again, you can look north and see things two rooms away, that will take you two commands entered to reach. Think of the northwest room as two rooms away as well, and it comes to the same thing.

So, basically, the current system of the four primary cardinal directions works well as it is.

No, it doesn't. If you're lucky, you go east, say, and look north, and see something huge and horrid three rooms away. It's far off in the distance, and is unlikely to waste energy chasing across the desert after you given your head start; however, you've plenty of warning so you can steer clear.

If you're unlucky, you go east, and you've all but stepped on the huge creature, and it charges in on you. In most places, this makes no sense. Not seeing it before it gets that close in an empty desert is a code quirk devoid of a sensible IC explanation.

[Halaster]

I agree that being able to look northeast and such would be great.  Personally, though, I wouldn't want to see it implemented halfway like that. Because no sooner than you can type 'look northeast' will people start asking "Why can't I shoot that direction?  Why can't I move that direction?", which are valid questions.

In my mind, if this were to be done, it should be done all the way, and simply just make them actual, usuable directions.  I saw some other mud that did this, and it worked out nice.

However, I know that such a project would be a rather huge undertaking.  First the code would have to be updated in big ways.  Then, the entire world would have to be updated to add all the links.  I'm not saying it's impossible or not doable, just.. a huge project.  And as usual, the bigger the project, the less likely it is to happen.

But anyway, that's my thoughts.  Great idea - not worth the effort.

[Beux]

I would -not- want to be the builder assigned to the job of adding all the room directions.

[Agent_137]

i call shens, halaster.

If adding a diagonal look is simple, but adding diagonal usable directions is hard, then we should add the diagonal look first and soon.

Why? Because it helps and doesn't hurt.

You act like people complaining that they can't shoot and walk nw is a problem for the mud. It's not. People always complain about something, and that's because they want more. Nothing changes that.

Don't wait 7 years to put in diagonal looks just so you can do diagonal moves at the same time and avoid people asking for more.

Thanks.
~robert

[Dalmeth]

It would still take a good deal of work.  Like differentiating between open areas and closed off areas like tunnels and canyons.

In the end though, Forty Winks did bring up a good point.  However, increasing the chances of avoiding something nasty would just take a bit more work.  It would be much easier than current methods.

Maybe the best interim solution would be a sort of "survey" command which would inform you of the prominent features (large, significant landmarks or creatures) within a 5x5 room radius of yourself.  Maybe it could even be extended to 7x7, and shrink based on the weather.

It'd probably better if it the command was assoiciated with a direction, so the view in the opposite direction could be cut off in some manner, forcing the person to actually concentrate on looking to their back.

[Beux]

Maybe the best interim solution would be a sort of "survey" command which would inform you of the prominent features (large, significant landmarks or creatures) within a 5x5 room radius of yourself.  Maybe it could even be extended to 7x7, and shrink based on the weather..

That would be very cool.

[Rhyden]

There are ways to get over not being able to see that deadly creature who's north and east of you so long as you're in an open place.

Do the math.

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* You
! Threat

(Say you don't know there's a threat to the northeast. You've came from the west side of this little map. Instead of going north or east and finding this dude, back up one step west, where you've already looked and seen no threats and walk 3 south, look east for each room, go back, walk 3 north, look east for each room, see the threat and avoid)

It may take more stamina, it may tire your mount out more, but it is possible in a wide area to never have to run into a big bad monster cause he was NE, NW, SE or SW of you. Call me crazy, but it works.

[Rhyden]

dubble post  :cry:

[Beux]

Mobs move. A mob could easily have walked into one of the previously safe areas.

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N = New deadly mob that you may now bump into on your backwards scouting journey.

[Rhyden]

Well, that's pretty rare. This is where our friendly commands 'run' and flee (if it comes down to it) come in.

[jstorrie]

I very much like Dalmeth's survey suggestion.

>survey
A large stone spire juts out several leagues to your northwest.
A flying mekillot is shooting lasers, a league to youe southeast.
A ruined fortress lies two leagues to the south.

>think "Fort... tress."

[jmordetsky]

I like that you can't see in every direction.

[Dakkon Black]

I like that you can't see in every direction.

half of tactical of strategy on arm seems to be trying to blindside your opponent by arriving from a room he wasn't expecting.

I like the survey idea, or even something just for the super big guys.

Salt flats, NESW

blah blah blah, lots of salt.

There is a scrab here.
There is a mekillot just north-east of here.


If that could happen in rooms to show npc's nearby, that might work. Perhaps we could set Watch for Watch Angles.


That would stop you from watching west, or watching elf,  but you'd be able to see your angles when entering a room? *shrugs*

[Vessol]

I agree that a survay command to give a 3by3 room examination of where you are would work out well, just looking around your directions fully. Of course other problems could exsist like doors that would have to block it, ect. It would be hard to impliment.

[jstorrie]

I doubt it would be particularly difficult to implement. For one thing, it could be easily set to not tell you things about indoor/undeground/city rooms. It's meant for when you're outside and gazing to the horizon.

[Dalmeth]

I agree that a survay command to give a 3by3 room examination of where you are would work out well, just looking around your directions fully. Of course other problems could exsist like doors that would have to block it, ect. It would be hard to impliment.

The issue is that it is a lot less difficult than implementing that grand prize, the other four directions mentioned on the compass.

Besides, given the idea is for a quick glance around you, I'd say denying vision into all indoor areas makes sense.  Also, if watch can detect such obstacles, so could this, potentially.

[Quirk]

There are ways to get over not being able to see that deadly creature who's north and east of you so long as you're in an open place.

Do the math.

There are ways to see the creature safely, provided you know where it is. If you don't know where it is, you can't guarantee safety. In the example you've just given, the room that has been entered unsafely is the one you're currently in.

Let us say you've entered this open area, coming west through a canyon opening out into it. (The same logic as follows would be true if you were dumped randomly in the middle of an open area, it's just mirrored in that case.)

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You have no way of determining where these threats are without exposing yourself to danger; that much is obvious. A single threat positioned in either of those spots is impossible to foresee. Obviously a threat directly adjacent to the * to north or south is also impossible to foresee on the turn before.

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Here, we have two threats, differently positioned, and a simple scanning algorithm of going up the side first will fail. The modified make-one-step then retreat and scan that you suggested will work in this instance.

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In this case it will not. You cannot go south far enough to distinguish the threat to the east. Now, if you modify it again to go north out of sight of the threat, you expose yourself to new hidden dangers (marked by the ?). The method you propose does work against a single threat, provided it's not within one of the rooms near the entrance marked at the start, but is not failsafe against multiple threats. Unfortunately, most Arm deserts have more than one predator.

Being able to look south-east and north-west, however, you'd be able to foresee whether or not you'd be jumped with perfect accuracy, provided the threats didn't move.

I'd actually prefer that instead of a "look northwest", we had something more like the "survey" command suggested, perhaps even in a "watch" context. You could double-check that the rooms at the corners were in an open space and then that no cliff corners were in the way by verifying firstly the terrain type and secondly that the rooms could each be reached by two routes - north-east and east-north, south-west and west-south, etc. The player would never have to type "northwest" (and possibly get heretical notions about shooting in that direction), but would be informed of the presence of large and noticeable predators skulking about in those directions.

[Armaddict]

I don't view this as a priority at -all-.

Particularly considering the amount of time it will drag however many immortals away from other tasks that are far more important.

Seriously.

[Quirk]

I don't view this as a priority at -all-.

Particularly considering the amount of time it will drag however many immortals away from other tasks that are far more important.

Seriously.

I'm pretty certain the survey command as suggested wouldn't take more than one coder to implement, nor necessarily take that coder long at all. Whether it should be done is maybe an issue; it's worth asking whether it's the best way to handle the issues raised here, or whether any coder wants to implement it, but it's not a solution that's going to suck up resources in an alarming fashion.

Redoing the whole mud to handle northeast, northwest, etc as directions would be an alarmingly large task, but no-one's advocating doing that in this thread.

[Halaster]

Whether it should be done is maybe an issue; it's worth asking whether it's the best way to handle the issues raised here...

See, that's the thing.  Some people (like me) probably don't view this as a problem of any kind.  I'm perfectly fine with not being able to look northeast.  Oh, I think it'd be really swell if it was doable, but I think we're just fine without it, too.  The fact you can't look in those directions is, in my mind, offset by other factors such as easily being able to outrun a creature 50 times your size who's legs are bigger than your entire body.

I'm not saying your idea is bad, Quirk.  I do like it.  I'm just saying uh.. what Armaddict said.  Not really a big issue and shouldn't, IMO, be a high priority at all.

[Vessol]

I agree Halaster, but it should be in some list of things to be looked at I think.

[Dalmeth]

The fact you can't look in those directions is, in my mind, offset by other factors such as easily being able to outrun a creature 50 times your size who's legs are bigger than your entire body.

I don't like the logic there.  Creatures fifty times my size are generally considered impossible on land, due to being crushed under their own weight.  There's also the fact that no one would consider the animals fifty times my character's size in the game to be lean, speedy hunters.  Most know them as heavily armored and simply unstoppable.  Bahamets are scavengers and mekillots dig through the ground for salt worms.

One thing future opening that an idea like the proposed command allows is more active predators.  No more dangers just lurking in one spot that experienced players can memorize.  With the way more animals are being moved to SimDesert Lite and behaviors are becoming more complex, it seems like a good way of making an alert mind more important when outside.

[Rhyden]

What I'm saying, Quirk, is that there's ways around it.

If you're surrounded by bad guys like in your situation, you're surrounded by bad guys. Tough luck. You'll probably find out then you'll have to deal with it. Doesn't look like the survey command would really help even if it was implemented. There's ways around it.

I've seen all cardinal directions on other muds. Personally, I don't like it.

I do like the survey command, the only iffy part to me would be if you're in a tavern able to look northeast and northwest outside along the road. Arm's mapping system isn't ideal in all places for the survey command.

[jhunter]

It's realistic but not a huge issue. I'm fine with things the way they are currently and can live with it. In fact, on some muds with all the diagonal directions covered, I found it to be a little cumbersome and kind of a pain in the butt.

[Halaster]

Creatures fifty times my size are generally considered impossible on land, due to being crushed under their own weight.

DINOSAURS!!  RAWR!!

[Quirk]

The fact you can't look in those directions is, in my mind, offset by other factors such as easily being able to outrun a creature 50 times your size who's legs are bigger than your entire body.

Well, I'd also like to see creatures that do begin hunting you to speed up to a run - you shouldn't be able to spamwalk away from anything. To address your point, though, huge creatures often aren't capable of sustaining a high speed over a distance, if we look at our knowledge of larger mammals on Earth. A 7000 kg African male elephant may be 70 times the mass of a large human male, but cannot run 70 times as fast, nor even twice as fast, and it can sustain its top speed of approximately 40 km/h or 25 mph for only about 100 metres.

This was in fact my initial complaint - that you can outrun creatures given a lag-free connection and a lack of typos, but being careful cannot preserve you from unlikely situations IC such as stumbling within chasing distance of a mekillot on an open plain without seeing it as you approach. The way I'd like to think of desert travel would be a party navigating carefully across the sands, keeping a weather eye on the horizon and suspicious-looking dunes for potential dangers, instead of that party walking their kanks speedily under the noses of large predators and away again before the predator has a chance to react. At present, the second behaviour seems to be better rewarded by the code. Making predators move faster in pursuit but be easier to spot would shift the balance, I feel.

If you're surrounded by bad guys like in your situation, you're surrounded by bad guys. Tough luck. You'll probably find out then you'll have to deal with it. Doesn't look like the survey command would really help even if it was implemented. There's ways around it.

Actually, if you look more closely at my last example, you'd be able to use the survey command to navigate the one clear route through quite easily. And the entire point of my somewhat detailed explanation was to demonstrate that there isn't any generalised "way around it" that won't get you jumped in an open space for some configuration of threats even when a way through exists. With the survey command, however, you'd only be at risk of being jumped on corners, not open spaces, if you were careful, and if no clear path through existed you'd be aware of this before you stumbled into an unsafe area.

I do like the survey command, the only iffy part to me would be if you're in a tavern able to look northeast and northwest outside along the road. Arm's mapping system isn't ideal in all places for the survey command.

Already covered this in the method I suggested in my response to you. Firstly, it would fail under the proposed terrain type test - you wouldn't be able to "survey" indoors. Secondly, you wouldn't be able to access the rooms north-east or north-west out of the tavern by going both north, east and east, north, or north, west and west, north, which would clue the algorithm in to the fact you weren't in an open space.

Also, I'm not agitating for the addition of northwest and northeast as moveable or targetable directions; I'm just suggesting that it would be nice to see what's there when you're in a wide open space, given that creatures will charge at you from one room away and you can see them from three.

[rufus]

Creatures fifty times my size are generally considered impossible on land, due to being crushed under their own weight.

DINOSAURS!!  RAWR!!

I am inclined to concur.
I like the current system.

[Halaster]

Well, I'd also like to see creatures that do begin hunting you to speed up to a run - you shouldn't be able to spamwalk away from anything.
This was in fact my initial complaint - that you can outrun creatures given a lag-free connection and a lack of typos

Yeah, I think that's what I was trying to say.  You can get away from them easier than you should be able to.  However, that's offset by not being able to look northeast, etc.

I'm not saying it's the best system.  I would like to see both improved, but, because they balance each other (in my mind at least), I'm not concerned enough that I think it requires immediate attention.  One day, maybe.

[Pale Horse]

Now correct me if Im wrong(and I'm sure that I can count on you guys to do just that), but I seem to recall that the listen skill, once worked to a high enough level, alows one to get an occational message of things that happen in other rooms, other than just the say commands..

Once, some time ago, I had a ranger that continued to get occational messages of something that had arrived into a room just off of is own, and on several instances, it told me when something had arrived north and east of my position.

Either this was a figment of my imagination(but the things were actually there when I looked after the message), a rememberance from a different mud(couldn't be..I havn't played another mud in years), a staff memeber was messing with my bRaiInnZzzZ, or this is no longer an actualy effect of the listen skill...

Has anyone else run into this, or am I just out of my mind(a valid possability in it's self)?

[rufus]

Solution - Armageddon: The Third Dimension.

[Synthesis]

RE: Pale Horse

The room you were in was coded to be a "lookout" room.

There are several (many?) rooms in the game that you can sit in and the game will echo entrance and departure messages to you from the surrounding area.

It's not based on any skill, though.

[Pale Horse]

RE: Synthesis

Oh, I'm aware of the lookout rooms and such, but in the instances that I remember this happening, I was out in the middle of the desert riding a kank and I got a message of a sand raptor moving into the area north west of me.

Another time I was in the grasslands and I kept getting messages of tandu moving into and out of areas just one room away.  Got really confusing for a moment.

Perhapse I was simply on a higher section of land that got coded as a "lookout" area...it would make sense.

Thanks for the correction.

[Dalmeth]

DINOSAURS!!  RAWR!!

I tend to think of the largest predators being somewhere around 30 times my size.  I mean by volume, not weight.  It's my guess that weight increases at a rate far faster than size as far as land creatures go.  Maybe some of the larger herbivores would be about that size. but no one confuses those things as fast.

[Armaddict]

I'm perfectly fine with not being able to look northeast. Oh, I think it'd be really swell if it was doable, but I think we're just fine without it, too. The fact you can't look in those directions is, in my mind, offset by other factors such as easily being able to outrun a creature 50 times your size who's legs are bigger than your entire body.

This pretty much mirrors how I feel.  The factor stated aside...this is just simply not a big deal at all.

Things have been pretty much built around the system as is.  I'll say that statement again that everyone hates and rails on...we've always just done things this way.

You can say that always doing things that way doesn't mean it doesn't warrant a change or what have you, but really...we've dealt with things in this way for SO long that it really has become unnecessary to change or modify it.

[Agent_137]

You can say that always doing things that way doesn't mean it doesn't warrant a change or what have you, but really...we've dealt with things in this way for SO long that it really has become unnecessary to change or modify it.

bullshit.

daze.
changes to sneak and hide.
stop.
bloody weapons.
the future of northern nobility.
addkeyword
nosave options
scan vs invisible altered
watch
rest and stand on mounts
stamina drain added to ranged combat
disengage

I stopped flipping through "staff announcements" at the end of page three.

Don't ever shoot down an idea just because "we've dealt with things in htis way for SO long that it really has beome unecessary to change or modify it."

Again, bullshit.

[Armaddict]

I didn't say that changes shouldn't occur, Agent.  Please read more carefully.

What I said was that this, considering the workload with the benefit, is not something I would like to see as a huge priority.

I'll say that statement again that everyone hates and rails on...we've always just done things this way.

Considering I called out that it was a hated statement, I'm surprised at how violent you sounded.

Don't ever shoot down an idea just because "we've dealt with things in htis way for SO long that it really has beome unecessary to change or modify it."

That was perfect support for the above quoted statement.

I did not say that Armageddon should be in a perpetual state of non-change.  But when you move into projects that immortals, and not you, will be working on...I merely tried to offer my input, and my opinion, on where the priority should stand on such idea.

[spawnloser]

Basically, Agent, you gotta understand one thing...

Halaster has told us that this would be a MAJOR CODE CHANGE, HOLY CRAP, THAT'S A LOT OF WORK!!!11!1!1!!11one11!

Maybe not in those words...but changes to the code?  Okay, maybe not huge.  Going from room to room to room to room...all immensely huge number of rooms, figuring out if ne, se, sw, nw should be added?  That's a LOT of work.  A lot of tedious work, I'd wager.

I wouldn't want to ask the staff to do that unless one of the staff members REALLY wanted to take that on as a project.

[Quirk]

Basically, Agent, you gotta understand one thing...

Halaster has told us that this would be a MAJOR CODE CHANGE, HOLY CRAP, THAT'S A LOT OF WORK!!!11!1!1!!11one11!

Maybe not in those words...but changes to the code?  Okay, maybe not huge.  Going from room to room to room to room...all immensely huge number of rooms, figuring out if ne, se, sw, nw should be added?  That's a LOT of work.  A lot of tedious work, I'd wager.

I wouldn't want to ask the staff to do that unless one of the staff members REALLY wanted to take that on as a project.

As has already been explained, however, the survey command would be near-trivial to implement and I gave a brief possible algorithm detailing how. Changing the mud so that ne, nw, se, sw links were added to every open area - yes, that would be a hard task, but no-one in this entire thread has suggested doing that, except for Halaster pointing it out as the "complete" solution which would be too much work.

It's slightly frustrating to see someone repeating a misconception that came up on the last page and was answered there. Please, please read the whole thread before you post?

[spawnloser]

Hey, I didn't know exactly what Agent was talking in regards to.  I know what's been suggested.  Survey?  Okay.  If a coder wants to pick it up, and the staff can decide how it would detect things.  I don't think it's that big of a deal that any pressure to do so should be used.