Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!

[Quirk]

I think the point Quirk was making was this: If you can't make your bard interesting, don't play a bard.

Nearly my point.

If you can't be sure your bard is interesting, please don't inflict your bard on us without asking first.

Code Select Expand

Parading up and down the tavern, the shaggy-bearded bard exclaims, in sirihish,
 "Hey! Who wants to hear a song? I've got a sly new song for you, a song about the Kuraci!"

Seizing onto a crust of bread, the fat-cheeked dwarf shouts, in sirihish,
 "Not me! Get your arse out of here!"

The fat-cheeked dwarf lobs a crust of bread at the shaggy-bearded bard.

Ducking to avoid the projectile, the shaggy-bearded bard says, in sirihish,
 "But you'll -love- this one!"

Scoffing, the fat-cheeked dwarf says to the shaggy-bearded bard, in sirihish,
 "That's what you said about the "Ballad of Grignr". Get out!"

[Spoon]

I think a lot of you people who are bashing bards really need to see what it's like on the other side. In the Bard's of the Poet's Circle, you are expected, almost pressured to roleplay public performances. It also requires a great deal of work and creativity to play a bard, so when I see threads like this the sheer lack of respect for the players of bards doesn't make me happy. It makes me not want to log in and be part of the armageddon community.

The most exciting and interesting characters I've ever run into were bards, and they made Arm much more interesting for me. I don't like sitting through hour long poems and songs, but I dealt with it, and still do, by myself without insulting anyone. These threads must make those players feel like crap, like their contribution isn't appreciated at all by the playerbase. Then they probably decide the playerbase is made up of a bunch of wankers, and don't log in ever again. This thread isn't going to solve any problems, it's just going to piss people off.

[Dresan]

Wow i wonder what you think goes through some people's heads when they are making character's then.

'Gee, i think i'll make a PCs that boring to me and to others. I'll put time into making a poem or song just to make sure its extra crappy, annoying and completely uninteresting. I better be carefully think my roleplaying might be interesting to some, can't have that.'

You seem to have missed a little bit of logic there. I don't think anyone wants to make a bard or any character thats not interesting to them or to others. I think people try their best, just that their best might not please everyone.

All i was trying to say is that their RPing has just as much right to be there as yours does, solo or not, and whether anyone OOCLY and ICLY likes it or not. I don't remember being asked if people could start their own little RPing in the room my PC was standing in, but guess what the world doesn't work that way.

That and the fact that people should take in consideration that the person did put some work into it, very likely attempting their best to make it good and enjoyable. However since it seems extreme hard for people to grasp the fact that a person may not intentionally have wanted to have make something that sounded crappy to a few....well i'm not holding my breathe.

Going elsewhere else to perform though? Maybe the day i can stand up go up to your PC and ask you to go RP somewhere else because I think that PC isn't very interesting and its RP is not only crappy but also spammy to me.  After that i'd probably have to ask for permission to backstab someone in a tavern, just in case the backstab and emotes is considered spammy and uninteresting by some or worse it disrupts someone's important RPing. :roll:

I digress though.

I think its almost a moot point your making since most Bards ask if its okay to perform and usually at least one person wants to hear it. However I have a feeling i'll have to be moving more and more to isolated rooms to see a performance. Oh well, guess i'll be missing more of that oh so interesting tavern RP consisting of idle PCs, flirting PCs and oh yeah the talk those god aweful sandstorms.

[LoD]

All i was trying to say is that their RPing has just as much right to be there as yours does, solo or not, and whether anyone OOCLY and ICLY likes it or not. I don't remember being asked if people could start their own little RPing in the room my PC was standing in, but guess what the world doesn't work that way.

First, Dresan, you should keep the passion of your posts and remove the exaggeration and sarcasm; they will be better received.  I understand you think bards, people that you enjoy (or perhaps just respect), are being attacked, but that's not quite the case.  Quirk isn't making blanket statements for every bard in the game.

He's talking about players of bards wishing to be liked, tolerated, and considered "talented artists" whether or not they have talent.  The lack of coded playing/singing skills makes it impossible for players to discern whether someone is practiced or talented by IC terms.  All they need are emotes.

I agree with several of the posters in that bards are a difficult role to play because they inherit a responsibility to entertain not only the characters, but the players as well.  And that's no small feat.  That requires paying specific attention not only to IC content of a performance, but also the OOC method of delivery.

Are my sentences too short?  Does the song run too long?  Have I lost the player's attention?  Is this dragging on?  Is my mispelling or poor grammar taking away from the presentation?  In RL, people can tune out music because it's appealing to only a couple senses (sound, and maybe touch if it's live).  In the game, people have to read every sentence of every line of every poem when a bard decides to perform, whether they want to or not.

Sometimes this can be 30-40 lines of one-sided text.

Tables can be used to stem the flow of overlapping conversation in a crowded room, but bards always seem to choose to deliver their pieces to the entire tavern.  Every single PC/NPC/VNPC is given the opportunity to listen to every word this person has to say, whether the character or player cares to listen.  Some people consider that abusive, irritating, and/or irresponsible on the part of the player.  And they're mostly the ones driving this conversation.

If measures aren't taken to allow bards a coded vehicle through which they can perform (i.e. stages, etc...) that allows players to tune them out if they so desire, then players like Quirk are asking bards to be a little more responsible in their estimates of:

:arrow: How good their character really is at singing/performing.
:arrow: How good their material is ICly/OOCly.
:arrow: How appropriate it is for their song to be heard by everyone.
:arrow: How important their bard is compared to the NPC/VNPC bards.
:arrow: How long should a given song/performance last.

I've played two successful bard characters, and written other bard songs that were preformed by others in game.  I've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly.  And while I don't think this is quite the epidemic some of posts make it out to be, there's certainly room for improvement.

-LoD

[Gimfalisette]

I have only one comment to this whole conversation:

While I'm not inherently opposed to LoD's idea of a coded stage that can be rented by a bard wanting to perform on it, I do think that if bards are required to do so and the stage costs money to rent, then bardic performances in Tuluk (other than those specifically requested by a powerful character) will probably stop altogether. 25 coin to rent a stage is not a small matter to a bard when most performances are not financially rewarded at all.

[Cuusardo]

I think a lot of you people who are bashing bards really need to see what it's like on the other side. In the Bard's of the Poet's Circle, you are expected, almost pressured to roleplay public performances. It also requires a great deal of work and creativity to play a bard

I could not agree more.

Playing a Circle bard is kind of like playing a leader, without a lot of the perks that a leader PC is entitled to.  The reality is you have to work a hell of a lot harder to earn your living and to earn respect from people.

[LoD]

While I'm not inherently opposed to LoD's idea of a coded stage that can be rented by a bard wanting to perform on it, I do think that if bards are required to do so and the stage costs money to rent, then bardic performances in Tuluk (other than those specifically requested by a powerful character) will probably stop altogether. 25 coin to rent a stage is not a small matter to a bard when most performances are not financially rewarded at all.

People always exaggerate how things will "stop altogether" when there's a proposed model change.

The stage idea is just that, an idea.  There are some interesting IC developments that could come about as a result of these stages.  For example, the stages could be manned by an NPC bouncer/guard.  Let's explore some of the possibilities:

1. Bards/Performers of no affiliation/sponsorship would pay a nominal fee for every desired use of the stage.

2. Bards/Performers who have reached a certain level of proficiency and rank in a sponsored role would be allowed to purchase a "Stage license" that would allow them to use common stages without a fee.

3. Great bards/performers that the Imms feel might have gained a certain level of fame/reputation could perhaps even be announced by the NPC bouncer/guard when they take the stage.

Ramshackle Tavern [NES]

Unaffiliated Bard

>enter stage
The stout, barrel chested man shakes his head, pushing you back.
The stout, barrel chested man says, in sirihish:
   "Use of the stage is 20 'sid, friend."

Circle/Sponsored Bard

>enter stage
The stout, barrel chested man checks your license, then nods.

Circle/Sponsored Bard of Great Fame/Rank

>enter stage
The stout, barrel chested man smiles, helping you to the stage.
Cupping his hands, the stout, barrel chested man says, in sirihish:
   "Ladies and gentleman, performing for you now -- Jacoba!"

Having a stage license might then become something important and desired by the bards of the city.  And if the requirements for attaining such a thing required a measure of control to ensure that the people granted these licenses had to achieve some IC goals/training would add an interesting layer to the bardic scene.

Bards without licenses might earn new nicknames or insults.  Earning your stage license might be a fun and exciting adventure.  Reputation and standing may be more quickly apparent if you notice a bard has a stage license, even moreso if the NPC's seem to know who they are enough to announce them.

Just some ideas to put it into perspective.

-LoD

[Tlaloc]

On the other side of the coin, LoD, I don't think that OOCly liking or disliking a bardic performance has to be the requirement of whether or not a bard is 'successful'. Like I was saying earlier, PCs should take into account their characters tastes in music.

A PC may espouse some poetry that I OOCly think is pure crap. ICly, my character might eat it all up. This is what roleplaying is all about: playing a role. Perhaps my character has bad taste, or maybe Zalanthan tastes typically differ from my own...but ICly, my character may love whatever crap the bard in question is spewing out.

Just as posted, I think audience members (like Quirk) could be more responsible in their estimates of:

:arrow: How the individual character views music, ICly and OOCly (do you hate the bard because they suck, or because you don't want to deal with 'spam'?)
:arrow: How good the material is ICly/OOCly. (would my character actually like this song, despite how I might feel about it OOCly?)
:arrow: How appropriate it is for their song to be heard by everyone. (Is my character sitting in a place where Bards and other tone-deaf drunkards are likely to start singing, such as...a tavern?)
:arrow: How important the bard is compared to the NPC/VNPC bards. (Is the bard the High Muck-a-muck Irofel, and are they actually ICly 'good', despite my OOC feelings)

[Gimfalisette]

People always exaggerate how things will "stop altogether" when there's a proposed model change.

That is why I said "if it costs money," LoD. It's already hard enough to get many bards of the Circle to perform publically, and the proportion of performance time to non-performance time in Tuluki taverns is quite low. Despite the stereotype of spamming Circle bards, a lot of them are reluctant to perform and will only do it if pressed/requested by a member of the upper castes or a merchant family member. I'm not speaking doomsday, I'm just saying what I honestly observe on the scene. Take the reluctance that's already there, add in a calculation on "do I perform today, or do I eat today," and there will be a change in human behavior.

I would love for there to be stages for bards to use if they didn't cost money or if there was a way for bards to get licensed to avoid fees and if the stages acted like tables do so that emotes were broadcast to the room.

[LoD]

On the other side of the coin, LoD, I don't think that OOCly liking or disliking a bardic performance has to be the requirement of whether or not a bard is 'successful'. Like I was saying earlier, PCs should take into account their characters tastes in music.

Nor do I, but what measures are we given to determine success?  I agree with everything you said about observers separating IC and OOC preferences for music, poetry, dancing, etc...  The problem I'm discussing, however, is the difficulty inherent in the system with determining IC talent.

If I want to punch someone in the face, make a piece of jewelry, bind a wound, poison a blade, climb a wall, remain unseen, or perform any number of role oriented tasks, then I have to be "skilled and practiced" to succeed.

If I want to play a bard who can play 10 instruments to perfection, sing with crystal clear tones, work my hips like Shakira, or have the audience clapping and asking for more -- all I have to do is emote and BAM - instant awesome.

Is that an exaggeration?  Sure.  However, bards have the power, which is why you're hearing observers posting their frustrations about bards and not bards posting their frustrations about observers.  Bards can waltz into a tavern, plop down, announce their song, and manipulate the audience and player's perceptions alike with nothing more than their will to emote.

When I see something like:

Code Select Expand

Several patrons clapping along, the svelte, dark skinned man strums his mandolin, nimble fingers moving over the strings with masterful timing as the melody fills the tavern with a lively pulse.

It makes me think of some newbie Bynners who do this:

Code Select Expand

The tall, muscular man backflips over your head and hits you from behind!

Really?  You're THAT good already?  You've been around for a few RL months and you're playing "masterful" songs that the audience is clapping along to and applauding?  Your material is being broadcast for all taverns to see on the rumor boards?

It's not the observers responsibility to keep things appropriate.  It's the bard's.  They're the ones controlling the emotes.  They're the ones determining the success or failure of their performance.  With absolutely no reliance on coded skill serving as a system of checks and balances for actual skill, they choose their skill level.

Is it all for good fun?  Usually.  Is it something that doesn't REALLY require something to be coded into the game?  Yes.  But does the completely abuseable freedom of expression result in some pretty lopsided performances?  Absolutely.  Is keeping that curbed in the responsibility of the observer?  Absolutely not.

-LoD

[Akaramu]

[Really?  You're THAT good already?  You've been around for a few RL months and you're playing "masterful" songs that the audience is clapping along to and applauding?  Your material is being broadcast for all taverns to see on the rumor boards?

It's not the observers responsibility to keep things appropriate.  It's the bard's.

I actually like the fact that there are a few professions ingame that do NOT rely on starting out as an utter nublet. It can get frustrating to play one role after the next and never reach any semi-successful level because the PC dies. I'm not a powergamer, mind you, but after several months of playing the clumsy newbie thief / newbie warrior / newbie mage it can be a nice, and very enjoyable change to enter the game and use your full creative potential without IC barriers before the freaking PC dies again.

Especially southern and off-peak bards could spend their entire life looking for a musical mentor and not find one. I might have all those songs in my head that I'd really like to share with others, but my PC simply dies again before I even see anyone who could teach them to do what I want to do.

The same is true for political and social knowledge of servant / merchant types. It is possible to run through the Atrium with a clueless, drink-spilling PC who bows to merchants, over and over again. But sometimes I'd rather have a headstart because the character will probably just die at under 10 days anyway, and I've been there, done that before.

I agree on the VNPC use and entire songs being posted on IC boards, though... thats silly and comes with a twinkish flavor.

[spawnloser]

But Akaramu, that's the way this game works.  We all start out as the proverbial SUCK.  Wanting to start as more?  Ask the staff if you can.  That's how it works for every other role, so why not for bards too?

[Akaramu]

Because its a game, it should be fun, and sometimes its fun for someone to use their full creative potential before the PC dies again?

It doesn't hurt anyone and does not break the rules.

Would you rather have more players in ArmageddonMUD who play their bards here, than have them check out other MUDs because they can play a role enjoyable to them there?

Also, other roles do not so much rely on finding a RARE (in the south) teacher so you can advance at all. Except maybe assassins.

[Gimfalisette]

But Akaramu, that's the way this game works.  We all start out as the proverbial SUCK.  Wanting to start as more?  Ask the staff if you can.  That's how it works for every other role, so why not for bards too?

Bards of the Poets' Circle do not start out as "the proverbial SUCK," though. If they are born into the Circle, they have been studying music, lore, and performance for the majority of their lives. A teenage or older Apprentice has enough practice, experience, and talent to perform competently on at least one musical instrument--which you will note when you look at the charms on that Circle bard's instrument. Every tiny instrument hanging there has been awarded by a Masterbard because the Circle bard has been judged proficient to perform on that instrument. To quote from http://www.armageddon.org/general/music/charms.html , these are "charms for instruments a bard has mastered."

Other bards might start out as "the proverbial SUCK," but mostly in this thread we're not talking about other bards, we're talking about Circle bards.

[jstorrie]

Conversely, however, in a city with dozens of dozens of Circle apprentices running around, not every random Circle bard is going to have every one of their songs for a month plastered around the local rumor-boards.

I don't think there's anything wrong with bards occasionally playing in a tavern, and I don't think there's anything wrong with them not consistently screwing up, either. Playing a song on a guitar is not, exactly, the hardest thing in the world. It doesn't take a lifetime of training to take it right. My counselors at kids camp could do it right.

Playing a song that makes all the tavern VNPCs weep and applaud and go around spreading the lyrics to the rest of the city, that's a bit odd. Maybe the top master bards would throw down a performance like that, once in a while, but most PC bards range from not-Circle-at-all (largely ignored) to one of the pre-master ranks (respected, but not awe-inspiring) and should play appropriately. Appropriately being 'okay, this PC has (no/some/quite a bit) of talent, but is not a Tuluki superstar.' There always seems to be one Tuluki bard playing the role of present superstar and it does irk me. You want to peg them down a notch, especially if OOC-wise, their material is bad. That just compounds the problem.

PCs strumming a nice song in a tavern isn't bad, but power-emoting and improperly using the rumourboards is. I don't think there needs to be any new code to stop that, players just need to moderate themselves.

[Jherlen]

Because its a game, it should be fun, and sometimes its fun for someone to use their full creative potential before the PC dies again?

No one is saying you have to start as someone who has never sung a note or plucked a lute string, but I think allowing a PC to evolve and grow through a period of medriocrity/uncertainty will be both more rewarding and more realistic.

Besides, city-based bards don't die THAT fast...

[Gimfalisette]

No one is saying you have to start as someone who has never sung a note or plucked a lute string, but I think allowing a PC to evolve and grow through a period of medriocrity/uncertainty will be both more rewarding and more realistic.

Circle-born bards will have mastered one instrument, but they must eventually master three in order to achieve the rank of Bard. They have to learn a crapload of other skills too, some of which are coded, some of which are virtual, and some of which are social/political. So growth, mediocrity, and uncertainty are givens for bards of the Circle who seek to achieve rank. Of course, if you don't ever roleplay closely with bards, you will not see this growth process much at all, because when bards are "on stage" they are putting their best performance forward. (Just like any performer in the real world.) If you're not interested in playing a bard yourself to see the reality of it, then I'd suggest ICly making a bard one of your best friends. You're likely to see an incredibly different side to barding than just "sits in the tavern performing with skill."

[EvilRoeSlade]

You know, I have seen bad musicians in bars, but I've never seen incompetent ones.

It's a good point that the majority of a bard's growth will take place off stage.

[Jherlen]

No one is saying you have to start as someone who has never sung a note or plucked a lute string, but I think allowing a PC to evolve and grow through a period of medriocrity/uncertainty will be both more rewarding and more realistic.

Circle-born bards will have mastered one instrument, but they must eventually master three in order to achieve the rank of Bard. They have to learn a crapload of other skills too, some of which are coded, some of which are virtual, and some of which are social/political. So growth, mediocrity, and uncertainty are givens for bards of the Circle who seek to achieve rank. Of course, if you don't ever roleplay closely with bards, you will not see this growth process much at all, because when bards are "on stage" they are putting their best performance forward. (Just like any performer in the real world.) If you're not interested in playing a bard yourself to see the reality of it, then I'd suggest ICly making a bard one of your best friends. You're likely to see an incredibly different side to barding than just "sits in the tavern performing with skill."

I wasn't speaking of Circle born bards specifically, and yes, most skills would be learned off stage, through either real or virtual practice. I was mainly addressing Akamaru's point about bards starting off already at their best.

[Dresan]

First, Dresan, you should keep the passion of your posts and remove the exaggeration and sarcasm; they will be better received.  

I'm not going to comment on this other then saying don't flatter yourselves.

Derailment aside, stages like LoD suggests is probably a better solution then having bards and listeners moving to different rooms all the time for performances.   I personally don't find that fair or considerate to someone attempting to be a bard so stages would be a good compromise. I would also agree they should be free at least.

That said from a social perspective all bards as well as nobles and merchants already start at the bottom of their social rank. I don't see many new merchants stuttering when they first meet a noble, most of the time they seem very smart and definately clever with words.  Again i don't see a big problem with 'perfect bards' because i really don't think there are any. ICly they probably practiced the song quite a few times to be confident enough to perform it infront of potentially dangerous people. OOCly they probably took the time to go over it, edit and spell check it. Even then as you can tell by this thread no matter how good the bard might think it is, some people still won't like it, ICly or OOCly.

[spawnloser]

You can still use your full creative potential.  Just don't emote that you're gods gift to music while doing so.  That's the abuse in my eyes.  Write a good song, but don't have your character play it on three instruments at the same time while singing through a range of 5 octaves.  Okay, that is an exaggeration, but when people emote that the entire crowd is singing along or clapping and cheering while they play divine music?  That's too much and has NOTHING to do with your creative potential.

[Malken]

If you want to see more flawed, crippled and mentaly unstable characters, stop killing them every single time they dare disturb or displease you. That goes for the Templars and Nobles that hire them and expect a 'perfect praising' song or poetry a week or two after the bard is hired. Or have them killed because they dared made fun of Aide Nobody #221 of your House in one of their songs..

[Akaramu]

If what generally bothers anti-bards is the use of cheering VNPC crowds and having mastered all instruments from start, then I agree, thats cheesy. I personally just want to have my PCs perform a song well enough that I can describe a melody I have on my mind, without having to think and ponder where I could add false notes and slips. Besides, I don't have much of a clue OOCly how to describe not so well done singing and instrument playing. There is plenty of information about how to do it right, but nothing about how to do it 'realistically wrong'  

You'd be surprised how quickly all 3 of my city bards died.

Okay... well... 2 of them were magickers.

(I'll shut up now.)

[ale six]

Malken - there's a wide gap between being a flawed or "not so good" bard, and being stupid/suicidal.

[spawnloser]

Make mistakes by describing your nimble fingerwork on the lute that is only marred by the occasional off note...or have your voice crack on the last note of a line.  It's not that bad.  My last bard was a great bard for low class sort of establishments, but when it came to working for nobility, fucked up left and right...but in different ways.  I'd pick the wrong song to sing on purpose...and you know what, it did kind of suck, rarely being used as a bard...but, well, I'll put it this way: there were issues with my character beyond the above which made it difficult.