Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!

[LoD]

The best part about an ambiguous statement like this is that Seeker has totally divorced himself of any real responsibility.  By wielding an opinion as a fact, as if there was some universally "good" bard, he's ensured that he could pretty much all of them and have individuals like yourself defending him over it.  Good job.

What fact?  He claims that HE dislikes most bards and would choose to reward talent that appeals to him.  He hasn't made any claim whatsoever that this is how everyone should play.  And I'm not defending his stance, I'm defending him from your misrepresentation.  He hasn't attacked you, yet you seem intent on going for the jugular using any methods available, including plain lies.

It might do you well to stop explaining what other people have said, and stick to your own thoughts and opinions.  We can read for ourselves what is written, and likewise recognize poor attempts to cover up one's lies.

What I've seen are ungrateful posters being snide throughout this entire thread.  Yes, you've been doing your level best to whine about a group of people you had to tolerate in game and didn't get to choose whether or not they were the cultural foundation of the new civilization you've been playing in.

Ungrateful, whining people?  We must be reading different threads.  Most of the posts have been constructive, if opinionated.  Get your facts straight before you start punching keys.  The largest "trantrums" have come from yourself and the others who have reacted strongly to what they perceive is an attack upon the "role" of the bard when it's been stated many times that it's much less about a bard's material than the presentation and present inability to tune them out if one so desires.

Disuade people from playing bards because a handful of people on the GDB have mentioned that OOCly they don't like some of the material people have written?  That's your own choice to make if you feel beaten by a few opinions, but I've certainly seen nothing in game to make me believe that any majority of players are acting inappropriately toward bardic performances.  Heck, I've even paid some and my character is probably on the bottom of the list as far as "who should be supporting these bards" goes.  Many players do have the ability to separate their OOC opinions from the IC game regardless of what you believe.

THAT is a fact.  

-LoD

[Gimfalisette]

It is true that there are some players who cannot separate their OOC dislike for bards, or for a particular bard's style of performance/composition, from their IC feelings and actions. There are many of these.

However, it is also true that there are many players who are quite good at separating their OOC likes/dislikes from how their characters act ICly. I have been told point-blank "I don't like your stuff OOCly, because I prefer modern music" but then I see the character act a different way. It's very cool that there are some people who can do that.

Truth be told, -I- wouldn't always (or even often) choose in the Real World to listen to the kinds of music/poetry/whatever that are created for this game. My personal preference is toward a fairly driving kind of alternative rock played on nifty electric instruments. But the fact that my preferred music style and genre doesn't exist in the game (and even if it did I couldn't "hear" it) doesn't stop me from ICly enjoying the creations that are good and appropriate in the game world.

I'd also ask that no one take it as their personal mission to dissuade people from playing bards. Instead, please point anyone who might be interested toward experienced players of bards (Cuusardo, for example) so they can get good information on the challenges and rewards of doing so.

[Cuusardo]

Despite the hardships of playing a bard, and the OOC dislikes there are out there, playing a bard can be a lot of fun and very rewarding.  Part of this is because bards are so versatile, and can work with just about any concept out there.

To all of you people who are considering it, don't let the bickering and OOC crap dissuade you from giving it a try.

[Intrepid]

What fact?  He claims that HE dislikes most bards and would choose to reward talent that appeals to him.  He hasn't made any claim whatsoever that this is how everyone should play.  And I'm not defending his stance, I'm defending him from your misrepresentation.  He hasn't attacked you, yet you seem intent on going for the jugular using any methods available, including plain lies.

So now you've stooped low enough to claim I'm lying for stating that his viewpoint regarding what is "talent", as you put it, is nothing more than an opinion rather than a black and white fact?  The fact that you also can't seperate an opinion from fact is also present here as well, and the inability to see past that because you think I'm misrepresenting him.  Yes, LoD, you're right, I must somehow be going for the jugular because I think he should be more compassionate toward other players on an ooc level.  Pardon-fucking-me for having a conscience.

It might do you well to stop explaining what other people have said, and stick to your own thoughts and opinions.  We can read for ourselves what is written, and likewise recognize poor attempts to cover up one's lies.

Wow, you've uncovered my fiendish master plan.  My true motives behind getting you to get your head out of your own ass is just a flimsy cover for world domination.  I am caught.  In all seriousness, the fact that I'm not the only person seeing it this way hasn't even dawned on you, because since I said it, and I disagree with you, it must be lies and misinterpretation?  So tell me, Sherlock: What exactly is my true modus operandi here?  I mean, I sure as hell thought it was to point out ooc feelings intruding on ic play for no other reason than a lack of appreciation for people trying to contribute to the game in a less cro-magnon manner, but I guess I have no way of understanding my own thoughts in the matter and need you to translate them for me.

Ungrateful, whining people?  We must be reading different threads.  Most of the posts have been constructive, if opinionated.  Get your facts straight before you start punching keys.  The largest "tantrums" have come from yourself and the others who have reacted strongly to what they perceive is an attack upon the "role" of the bard when it's been stated many times that it's much less about a bard's material than the presentation and present inability to tune them out if one so desires.

Again: Lack of agreement with you does not equate to a lack of understanding of the facts in the thread.  And yes, even some of the people claiming the problems with presentation are still showing an overall resentment toward the material and the class.  If you're feeling threatened by the statement, it might be pangs of guilt creeping in.  If you're not, then maybe it doesn't apply to you.  From what I'm seeing at the moment, you seem to feel it applies to you.

Disuade people from playing bards because a handful of people on the GDB have mentioned that OOCly they don't like some of the material people have written?  That's your own choice to make if you feel beaten by a few opinions, but I've certainly seen nothing in game to make me believe that any majority of players are acting inappropriately toward bardic performances.  Heck, I've even paid some and my character is probably on the bottom of the list as far as "who should be supporting these bards" goes.  Many players do have the ability to separate their OOC opinions from the IC game regardless of what you believe.

Again, I'm specifically referring to people on the board who have said they didn't like bards in general or indicated such in their posts the way Seeker did.  And honestly, it takes only a few people acting like morons to spoil an rp experience like this, unfortunately.  Again, it doesn't matter if you agree with me or not; contrary to your belief, the world is not going to end as a result of our disagreement on the matter.  Many players have the ability to seperate ooc opinions, yes.  Many apparently do not, as indicated by this thread and the one on the commonality of mages.  Funny how that thread comes back to haunt, isn't it?

THAT is a fact.

You just love to set yourself up for disagreement, don't you?

[LoD]

So tell me, Sherlock: What exactly is my true modus operandi here?

Elementary, my dear Watson.  To complain.  Which is what most of us are doing, in one way or another.  You just choose to be nasty about it.  Your reply to Seeker was insulting, personal, and exaggerated.  There was no attempt to be constructive, which is a clear sign that you're here to fight, not talk.

Bards are a wonderful part of the game, and its culture.  They have the opportunity to entertain, embolden, persuade, disseminate information, glorify, damn, idolize, and critcize our world and its people.  The role of the bard is perfectly alive and well within the game, but it can be a slippery slope to climb due to most depending upon the player populace for financial gain.

Some players are more resourceful than others, but the model is rather unkind to the bard because the goodwill of the common people, of which there are many, extends only as far as their pockets are deep.  When you make a salary of 300 coins a month, and drinks are 20 'sid apiece, feeding the hungry mouth of a bard almost borders on a lack of self preservation.

Yet, this has been the case for many years and I've seen no signs that the "bard" is to become an endangered species.  Constructive criticism implies a desire to see its subject improve.  Whether it needs improvement or not is a personal decision for each individual player and Immortal; both are empowered to make changes through several vehicles.  I know that I try to support bardic activities when I can, and indirectly improve them if I see someone that seems to struggle, whether it be IC or OOC.

The major complaints have been around the presentation of the bard's material, not the material itself nor the role of the bard in Armageddon.  It's relatively safe to assume that we will see more bards, despite what pessimistic efforts may be made to disuade future players.  I'm sure there are people that hate mundane characters, or magick characters, or half-giants, or muls, or any other character combination that you can put together, but that doesn't warrant an outburst - merely discussion.

So what I request of you, Intrepid, and others who feel empassioned by this subject, is to be more topical than personal, more critical than arguementative, and more approachable than defensive while stating your opinions and your case.  And I plan to do the same.

-LoD

[Intrepid]

Elementary, my dear Watson.  To complain.  Which is what most of us are doing, in one way or another.  You just choose to be nasty about it.  Your reply to Seeker was insulting, personal, and exaggerated.  There was no attempt to be constructive, which is a clear sign that you're here to fight, not talk.

Actually, all I did was state surprise in my initial post in this thread.  I implied in the statement that I thought you guys were being overly critical, and that was it.  A couple of well-meaning individuals stated that there were was not a dislike for bards.  I was being sarcastic and flippant to Seeker's post, but he pretty much summed up for me what was the epitome of my feelings toward anti-bards and their motives.  I was actually all done with my point and this thread until you posted.

Bards are a wonderful part of the game, and its culture.  They have the opportunity to entertain, embolden, persuade, disseminate information, glorify, damn, idolize, and critcize our world and its people.  The role of the bard is perfectly alive and well within the game, but it can be a slippery slope to climb due to most depending upon the player populace for financial gain.

There's nothing wrong with a slippery slope as long as it's not completely vertical.  I believe that an undisclosed number of people are unable to keep their ooc feelings seperate from their ic ones on this matter, and it's based on this and the thread on mages becoming commonplace recently.  I would like to add that, before these threads, I had no major opinions one way or another on the topic.  You guys changed that, it wasn't something I developed out of the blue.

Some players are more resourceful than others, but the model is rather unkind to the bard because the goodwill of the common people, of which there are many, extends only as far as their pockets are deep.  When you make a salary of 300 coins a month, and drinks are 20 'sid apiece, feeding the hungry mouth of a bard almost borders on a lack of self preservation.

To which I cannot disagree in the slightest.  Of course, I never believed it should easy for bards.  I'm only arguing that a number of people think it should be impossible based on their personal resentment as players.  In fact, the Bard class in Dark Sun was geared primarily toward dealings with nobles, templars and dynastic merchants, not commoners.  It seems to me like a patron would be vital.

Yet, this has been the case for many years and I've seen no signs that the "bard" is to become an endangered species.  Constructive criticism implies a desire to see its subject improve.  Whether it needs improvement or not is a personal decision for each individual player and Immortal; both are empowered to make changes through several vehicles.  I know that I try to support bardic activities when I can, and indirectly improve them if I see someone that seems to struggle, whether it be IC or OOC.

The playerbase opinions change over time, either because the players change in roster or because they change in mindset.  I said I would discourage players from playing bards.  I have contact with a grand total of one player outside of the game, and she isn't all that influenced by me.  If I end up discussing this matter on the forums or make a few more online friends, and this topic emerges in conversation again, my stance would be what I've been stating all along: Bards are not a player-friendly class at the moment.  My statement that I personally would not be making the bard I'd been planning to make was just that: a statement concerning my own intentions.  If you think I'm somehow going to start a pro-culture revolution in the playerbase at some point soon, you're definitely overestimating my interests and resourcefulness in this matter.

The major complaints have been around the presentation of the bard's material, not the material itself nor the role of the bard in Armageddon.  It's relatively safe to assume that we will see more bards, despite what pessimistic efforts may be made to disuade future players.  I'm sure there are people that hate mundane characters, or magick characters, or half-giants, or muls, or any other character combination that you can put together, but that doesn't warrant an outburst - merely discussion.

More power to them; better them than me.  My main statement was that I would not be playing one after having read this thread and would discourage others if it came up in conversation.  You decided you were going to attack me about this after you took it upon yourself to take the non-existent moral high ground in what you believed was defending Seeker, an individual I'm fairly certain doesn't care either way what my viewpoint on the situation is.

So what I request of you, Intrepid, and others who feel empassioned by this subject, is to be more topical than personal, more critical than arguementative, and more approachable than defensive while stating your opinions and your case.  And I plan to do the same.

It's refreshing to see you taking co-ownership of this exchange with me for a change, rather than trying to place it squarely on my shoulders.

[spawnloser]

Intrepid, I'd like to point out one thing.  In this thread, so far, noone has said they want no bards in game.  In fact, most people have actually said they really want good bards, and then say what they see as a common bad thing bards do.  Sure, some people have said some strong things in one way...but they have never attacked people for their defense of bards, while you and a few others have attacked people for their dislike of certain aspects of how bards are played.

My suggestion, stop it.  You're not making things any better.  As I've been reading your back and forth with LoD, images of how you both look while typing has been coming into my mind.  I picture LoD sighing and shaking his head as he reads through what you type...and you screaming at the monitor as you respond in turn.  That's from the tone of your writing.  I'll let you draw your own conclusions about what the tone in the different writings does for an argument.

[NotJesus]

you took it upon yourself to take the non-existent moral high ground

Though probably taken out of context i just want to chime in there and apologizing in advance for derailment.

I feel that lately there has been a serious lack of respect for fellow players. This seems to have gone beyond this thread and seems present in others. Now because of this, holier-then-thou comments tend to be emerging, while possibly posted with good intentions they will still either feed the trolling or worse are nothing but be a form of trolling itself. It doesn't help and your usually just making people angrier.

From my point of view, no one including myself can really criticize other without being a hypocrite in this GDB. Maybe the imms but its not because they shown in the past that their any better (no offense) but because its their job to maintain order.

Please note this is coming from someone who is no better, but the suggestion i have for myself and others is learn some humility and to at least try to have some respect for other players and their feelings.

[Seeker]

I stand by my original post, word for word, but I am not interested in the aggressive hostility.  Intrepid, if you wish to continue in that direction, I would request you use PMs.  I will answer them privately and politely.  Apparently we strongly disagree on precisely what I think.... which is interesting and mildly amusing.

I will state again that I enjoy bards immensely, but my point was clear.

If someone plays a bard very poorly, I will not enjoy her.  Its that simple.  The same is true of a poorly played dwarf, a poorly played Templar, or a poorly played brainless merc.  The amount of effort the player spends is invisible and therefore irrelevant to me.

My personal opinion cannot be the prime determinate in how my character will react, though.  It doesn't  mean that anyone else in the game will or should agree with my opinion on any particular bard, either.

Circle Bards, in the Northlands, have a unique situation.  Like magickers, there is a set of rules affecting everyone else's RP around them.  Documentation mandates that loyal Tulukis', through their appreciation of art, give bards some measure of support, attention, and/or admiration.  

I'd ask Northern bards to be courteous of this special status.  I just don't always want my PC to be commandeered to play a bard's appreciative audience.  Especially if I think the bard is crappy.  Sometimes, there are other things I want to do IG when in public.  My PCs beg bards I enjoy to perform; I know others do to.  


Seeker

[Anonymous]

It should be noted that it isn't WHAT people are saying (not everything at least)  thats making other 'react' harshly its HOW they are saying it.

[Shalooonsh]

A badly played good bard is a travesty.

A well played horrible bard is a thing to treasure.


Get this thread back on track.  Stop the escalation.

kthx.

[Intrepid]

I stand by my original post, word for word, but I am not interested in the aggressive hostility.  Intrepid, if you wish to continue in that direction, I would request you use PMs.  I will answer them privately and politely.  Apparently we strongly disagree on precisely what I think.... which is interesting and mildly amusing.

I didn't expect you to change your viewpoint nor agree with me.  In fact, I'm surprised you were concerned enough to respond.  My interest level in the thread did not go beyond my third post, in fact.  All posts since then have been obligatory responses to LoD and now you.

Intrepid, I'd like to point out one thing. In this thread, so far, noone has said they want no bards in game. In fact, most people have actually said they really want good bards, and then say what they see as a common bad thing bards do. Sure, some people have said some strong things in one way...but they have never attacked people for their defense of bards, while you and a few others have attacked people for their dislike of certain aspects of how bards are played.

Actually, the notion that there is a set formula for what makes a bard "good" is what I've had issue with from the beginning here.  Anyone or anything being good at what they do is incidental and entirely subjective.  It's a lot like saying: "I'll only eat good strawberries."  How do you seperate those people who are biased toward liking all strawberries versus someone who hates strawberries?  Preferences are just that; they're not fact.  My original intent in all of this was to point out that you guys were overly critical enough that I didn't consider playing a bard to be a feasible option any longer.  I keep bringing up the subjective nature of an opinion, yet it continues to be responded to as black and white truth.  I believe this misunderstanding alone is a good enough indicator to cause undue negativity toward anyone in the role due to ooc bias.  I think Tlaloc put it rather well in a previous thread: We're ok with someone being an ic prick, but not with someone being an ooc prick.  Unfortunately, I think the lines are too blurred here for practicality's sake.

[Jherlen]

I'm more inclined to agree with Seeker's 'controversial' post (I skipped the massive exchange between Intrepid/LoD entirely).

You can play a bard (and be an entertaining one) without inflicting badly "Zalanthised" pop lyrics on the playerbase, without inflicting poorly constructed poetry, without outright copying songs from fantasy novels (I once saw a bard sing the lyrics from the song Pippin sings in Return of the King verbatim), and without acting like every single person in the town loves you.

If you recognise your skills at composing original poetry are not so great (which is nothing to be ashamed of), you could either have your character recognise this fact ICly as well, or focus on different aspects of bardery.

Bards can tell jokes, stories, record histories and events, spread rumors, and plenty of other things without requiring as much creative talent in composition. I'd love to see more bards focusing just on charisma and personality rather than trying to base a reputation off of songs and performances which some people don't seem to read anyway.

[spawnloser]

Noone ever said what made a good bard...there are so many things to do so.  There are a few glaring things that stand out about bad bards.  It is often easier to point out what is wrong than what is right after all...and that's what people are doing.  If this is what's wrong, than what's right must include what's not mentioned.

There is, however, something to be said about using captivating writing, which is a skill...and there is a non-objective way to rate it.  There is good writing and bad writing, regardless of style and preference on style.  Preference on style is a matter of opinion.  For example, there is such a thing as a good movie that I wouldn't care to see...and a bad movie that I would love to...simply because I love the style.  I can still recognize whether it is a good or bad piece of art.

[Intrepid]

(I skipped the massive exchange between Intrepid/LoD entirely).

Don't worry.  You didn't miss much.  I was there.

You can play a bard (and be an entertaining one) without inflicting badly "Zalanthised" pop lyrics on the playerbase, without inflicting poorly constructed poetry, without outright copying songs from fantasy novels (I once saw a bard sing the lyrics from the song Pippin sings in Return of the King verbatim), and without acting like every single person in the town loves you.

Has anyone tried talking to these people about it?  While the forum can reach a good many people, not everyone logs in here.

If you recognise your skills at composing original poetry are not so great (which is nothing to be ashamed of), you could either have your character recognise this fact ICly as well, or focus on different aspects of bardery.

Bards can tell jokes, stories, record histories and events, spread rumors, and plenty of other things without requiring as much creative talent in composition. I'd love to see more bards focusing just on charisma and personality rather than trying to base a reputation off of songs and performances which some people don't seem to read anyway.

I think the fixation with music is an unfortunate symptom of the Bard's Circle requirements.  No matter which type of Bard you hail from, you have to know at least one instrument.  Maybe if the docs were changed to reflect Bards who are not singers and not poets.  Thespians, jesters and numerous others could have their time in the limelight.

There is, however, something to be said about using captivating writing, which is a skill...and there is a non-objective way to rate it. There is good writing and bad writing, regardless of style and preference on style. Preference on style is a matter of opinion. For example, there is such a thing as a good movie that I wouldn't care to see...and a bad movie that I would love to...simply because I love the style. I can still recognize whether it is a good or bad piece of art.

To bring a close analogy to the fore, I hate Ernest Hemingway's writing.  I can't even begin to imagine how so many of my English teachers enjoyed him.  He was descriptive, but he was verbose and boring.  On the other hand, I love Anne Rice's earlier work.  She was descriptive, but many other people found her to be verbose and boring.

[Gimfalisette]

I think the fixation with music is an unfortunate symptom of the Bard's Circle requirements.  No matter which type of Bard you hail from, you have to know at least one instrument.  Maybe if the docs were changed to reflect Bards who are not singers and not poets.  Thespians, jesters and numerous others could have their time in the limelight.

The fixation is not just in the documentation, though. It's in the player base also. Nine times out of ten, if a character asks a bard to perform something, it's a song they're asking for. Jokes are almost never requested, stories a bit more frequently, current news/events more frequently than that. Competitions and commissions from Important People also tend to focus almost exclusively on songs.

Players could help change this, perhaps, by adding more jokes/stories/whatever to the general game documentation. Then bards who don't have a ready store of these things in their heads would have something to pull from.

I don't think it's the Arcs or other documentation and tradition of the Circle that needs to change, at all. There is plenty of "other stuff" in the Arcs and in the various sub-Circles. But if the player base was more aware that not all bards (not even most of them, necessarily) are primarily singer/songwriters, then bards would get asked to do more of a variety of things, so bards would respond by creating a better variety of things, and different stuff would be available to bards of the future.

Ask your local bard today for a joke or story or bit of news. Be the change you want to see

[Intrepid]

I actually didn't get my point across very well, so I went back to the Bard documentation and skimmed it to find what I was originally referring to.

Most bards, in theory, would like to become master bards--or I assume they would--despite their intended rarity.  To become a master bard, no matter which division of the Circle you're from, you have to complete the Arcs of Learning.  These arcs are like standardized tests of fitness, so certain types of bards will be better suited than others.  Two out of the six arcs have to do with music and singing, respectively.  The tests are set to promote a certain type of bard rather than an atypical one.

[Jherlen]

I have seen (and hosted) storytelling/joke competitions that were a riot -- and MUCH more memorable than competitions based on songs. Would encourage more people to host these also.

[Gimfalisette]

To become a master bard, no matter which division of the Circle you're from, you have to complete the Arcs of Learning.  These arcs are like standardized tests of fitness, so certain types of bards will be better suited than others.  Two out of the six arcs have to do with music and singing, respectively.  The tests are set to promote a certain type of bard rather than an atypical one.

And the other four Arcs have nothing at all to do with music. Even the two music-slanted Arcs are not entirely about playing/singing music, as instrument crafting is encompassed as well. Also the Arcs are really more about competency, not virtuosity. A bard needs to be competent in song and instrumental, yes, but isn't required to excel in those areas. Notice too that there's no requirement for composition beyond the impromptu song. The Arcs promote a well-rounded bard, not just a typical one. Anyone who's interested could ask around to various Circle bards and find out--there will be those who specialize in dance, humor, composition, acting, instrument making, sculpting, painting, and lots of different kinds of arts at different points in time. They just won't mention it all that often, because non-bard characters are expecting them to just sing.

[Intrepid]

I realize that.  My point is that the docs do encourage a certain bent for bards who wish to become Master Bards someday, and that may account for the large number of budding musicians referred to.

[Medena]

A bard delivering an instrumental performance while people sat at a table in the Atrium talking.

These were very long and intricate emotes. No vocals. A virtuoso performance.  It didn't demand attention though and somehow seemed to blend in as "background music". It lent a rich layer of atmosphere to the scene and I was in awe of the detailed visual images this bard's player was able to create.

A bard improvising a song about my PC while we sat on a couch in the Barrel.

Very short lines. Rotten poetry. Emotes which involved a bit of lute playing but were fairly short. He made it up on the spot! I was impressed and my PC was totally smitten with his charms.

An Anyali woman singing in the Bard's Barrel.

Medium length lines. So-so poetry but nice images. Emotes involving smiling and playing a stringed instrument. The song itself was not memorable (sorry to the player), in fact I can't even remember its subject matter. It was how the character of this PC was so richly conveyed. She was warm and charming, in a low-key sort of way. I believed she had a nice voice. I believed she had a decent technique on the instrument.

These are a sampling of the performances which stick out in my mind as well done. And my point in writing them was to show how it is not the length of line, nor the quality of the poetry nor what is presented in emotes that make for a good performance.  I cannot sum up what makes for a good performance other than to say that I believed in that moment. I believed the RP.

There are lots of sorts of technical considerations bards can do to assist in drawing people into believing in their moment such as considering line length, timing, accompanying emotes, etc. But there is no one universal way that is best. It depends upon the material, the venue, those present, the situation and so on.

When I write a piece I spend probably just as much time in planning the presentation as I do on the words themselves.  If I want the piece to have a bouncy, rollicking feel to it I will opt for short lines and deliver them as fast as I can get them out so that the effect is not lost. If I want it to feel like a haunting, soft melody with a real flow,  I'll make long lines which combine many of my poem's lines into just one "sing".  I consider how much  other stuff is going to be going on in the place, ie. in terms of intervening action when I plan presentation. In a busy tavern I am probably going to do pretty short emotes because the long ones get lost in the scrolling and a lot of people probably only just read the song lines.  If the piece is for a competition or other very specific occasion, I will dream up ways of making it into a total performance. Since I want people to appreciate the work I have written, I try to find ways that make it easy for them, and doesnt feel like work.  Sometimes I know that with all the other action going on, people just won't be able to take in every single line so I try to decide which parts are the most important for what I want to convey, then I figure out how to punch up those sections.

We all do try to please.

[Jherlen]

You can play a bard (and be an entertaining one) without inflicting badly "Zalanthised" pop lyrics on the playerbase, without inflicting poorly constructed poetry, without outright copying songs from fantasy novels (I once saw a bard sing the lyrics from the song Pippin sings in Return of the King verbatim), and without acting like every single person in the town loves you.

Has anyone tried talking to these people about it?  While the forum can reach a good many people, not everyone logs in here.

Just wanted to go back and add: I was tempted to OOC and say something, but decided against it for the sake of politeness and minimal use of the OOC channel. If anyone was going to address such things I think it would probably have to be staff. Such performances do often leave me not wanting as much to watch the same bard perform in the future, though.

[Northlander]

Hey. The thread was intended as a firestarter and I appreciate all the heated responses.

I think there's a place for bards in Armageddon just as there's a place for them in Zalanthas. There is a place for good bards, and there is a place for bad bards.
We should respect emotes detailing skill in song and instrumentation. If someone emotes of great awesomeness on the lute, then go with it no matter how little time you've seen him in-game. You might respect the player less, just as you'd respect a Byn backflipper less, but take the emote for the truth it is.
Lyrics must be judged by their own merit and not by the number of real-life hours spent by a player in their writing. Swiftness of composition is still laudable, but real-life concerns aren't a part of roleplaying.
I don't mind when songs are put onto the in-game boards. I like it very much, it gives me something to read when I'm bored. But you needn't have it hummed by VNPC fans. Give a specific bard - perhaps your own character - as singing it.
Don't blow your own trumpet too feverishly by putting wildly cheering VNPC:s into your emotes. A few odd heads turning, a small bit of coin being tossed your way, they all would work. Don't go above and beyond unless you play a well-known Master Bard.
I stand by my other advice to bards: sing out of doors. While you say you don't want to perform to VNPC:s alone, I don't think you want to force yourselves onto PC:s either. Put it in a competition or put it before those who stop outside a tavern or by an often-passed road as you give your best emote. Earlier today I was even far out of the way in the Eclectic Garden and a lovely newbie passed by, danced to my character's song (Thank you).

This piece of documentation, from General Documentation - Cities, I hadn't seen before: "The citizens of the North have a well-known hunger for art of any kind and of any quality."
I'll interpret this as if Tuluki citizens enjoy both applauding and booing.
Yes, there are people that would like poor poems, there are people that would like all poems, there are people that would like poor poems only if they're about his mother. If your character would like a poem, do please have him like it. I also ask that if your character would dislike a poem you have him do so as well. I hope it is not in the spirit of our harsh game that unaffiliated bards or even Apprentices and Seekers of any Circle should give verse worse than the common man and still be above his contempt.

Just for the hell of it, I thought I'd give my three favourite songs from the Original Submissions:
A Monologue, The Tilted Stool, and The Wind Blows Over The Plains.

Anyone want to comment my picks or join in with a few of their own?

[Barzalene]

I like the ones by that Barzalene chick...oh...never mind.

[tiny rainbow]

Bumping this with link to dancing *and songwriting* advice thread as well:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55440.msg1042879.html#msg1042879

Valeria might be the best player in the game at writing songs BTW, your challenge is to beat them