Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!

[marko]

I'm not sure why there is so much distaste for bards.  Bards put a lot of energy into their characters and, in Tuluk, are rewarded by the general populace for that.   According to all documentation bards are well respected and liked by the general population - that means that even if you OOCly dislike bards your character should appreciate good performances and good attempts.  

Bards in Tuluk are encouraged to street perform (it is in their documentation) and are encouraged to use the stages already in the game.  Two of the five taverns in Tuluk have written stages and another two have virtual stages (at least from what I've seen done) - they should be used.  

I find that when a bard performs without being asked to then that leads to this sense of "disrupting" the roleplaying of a scene.  I would encourage bards to make use of the performance areas and to also make use of Poets' Circle (yes, I realize Poets' Circle is a bit out of the way and would be so much better in the red commons) but it is there to be used.  

When there are a bunch of bards in Tuluk it is nice to see them performing in the areas where there are stages set up - or doing some street performances.  

I always appreciate bards and all their efforts.  I think bards are a very challenging and difficult role - one of the hardest to play for any length of time in the game.  Anyone who sticks with a bardic character and perseveres through the 'hate' to achieve greatness... you have my utmost respect.

[veryalien]

pick a character that isn't very exciting and you'll generally get the adventuring sort that don't care.

not much to be done about it.

[Barzalene]

I think the hardest part is when you oocly know that you have no great talent to this barding stuff. So, I guess my question is, should only rl poets and great flowery emoters play bards, or is there room for those of us who think in sound bytes on the scene?

[jcarter]

I think the hardest part is when you oocly know that you have no great talent to this barding stuff. So, I guess my question is, should only rl poets and great flowery emoters play bards, or is there room for those of us who think in sound bytes on the scene?

I don't think anyone really wants poetry and flowery emotes for bards. They just want something that's actually interesting, be it a story or whatever.

I typically am annoyed whenever a bard interrupts what I'm doing in a tavern. That's just me. I only see 'songs' IG as spam, yet I still almost always play in Tuluk.

It just struck me how people always think they lay the only claim to "acceptable" activity in a tavern.  It's a TAVERN. Meetings. Singers (not just bards, maybe drunken Bynners). Brawls. Arguments.  NOISE. LOTS OF NOISE. To me, the only way a bard singing would -interrupt- you is if they sat down at your table and launched into Zalanthas' version of Moon River.

The way I see it is rather like someone putting money in the jukebox. You either say "Oh I like that one" and listen, or you say "Fuck I'm sick of that song!" and return to whatever you were doing.

I've never played a bard in Arm, but I have a rather well-lauded one in another MUD.  Having your efforts at roleplaying your profession (duh- bards perform, good bad or indifferent) dismissed as "SPAM" is discouraging and well... rude. It implies that reciting or singing is on the same level as spamming skills or taking fifty arrows out of your sack and putting them into your quiver.

Regardless of the player's talent level, they are at least -trying- to roleplay. Something all of us are trying to do as well, and we don't always hit the mark, either.

[Cuusardo]

Having played a bard in the past, I agree that it is probably one of the most  challenging roles in the game.  I personally wrote a lot of my bard's material, and let me tell you, the words don't just fly out of my head onto a piece of paper.  I worked VERY hard on these things.  Sometimes I was lazy and took existing songs (usually more obscure ones that the general population probably hasn't heard before) and Zalanthanized them.  It is a little disappointing to know that a lot of players regard such performances as nothing more than spam, because like myself, a lot of players of bards put a lot of thought and work into what they're doing.

I also feel that bards are seriously underutilized.  I found countless opportunities that people could have used my bard PC for things, but they did not.  And it's not as though I could have just flat out told these people, "Did it ever occur to you that you could ask me for this, or to do that for you?"  I think bards should be used more to further the political agendas of people, or pumped for information, or even just to make fun of someone that someone else doesn't like.  And that's only scratching the surface.  Bards have the potential to be the most versatile PCs in the game, and the general belief about bards is that they are simply performers and nothing more.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

Concerning Allanak, I too believe that people in general completely disregard the fact that there is indeed a following of the arts.  (Fale, anyone?)  I mean come on, there's a tavern called THE BARD'S BARREL.  I highly doubt it would be there if people didn't want it there.  I can understand that Allanakis would not consider the arts to be the life blood of their city, and would probably never give a bunch of bards their own piece of land, but they would still enjoy the occasional performance, as well as the other things a bard has to offer.  I for one would like to see more bards in Allanak, especially the smelly, gritty, bawdy bards who spin tales about the AoD Sergeant who killed a Gaj in the arena, or the Red Robe that captured a northern noble and made a slave out of him.

Something else I would really like to see in the game is more travelling bards.  In Tuluk, bards are encouraged to visit other places, and are rewarded for doing so.  I'd love to see more bards throw on their dirty armor, grab a sword, and hop on their kanks bound for some new and exciting place.  (I recall a pair of Tuluki bards who did this often, and had some great stories to tell about it.)  Bards that aren't afraid to get dirty and explore are awesome!

[Barzalene]

Having played a bard in the past, I agree that it is probably one of the most  challenging roles in the game.  I personally wrote a lot of my bard's material, and let me tell you, the words don't just fly out of my head onto a piece of paper.  I worked VERY hard on these things.  Sometimes I was lazy and took existing songs (usually more obscure ones that the general population probably hasn't heard before) and Zalanthanized them.  It is a little disappointing to know that a lot of players regard such performances as nothing more than spam, because like myself, a lot of players of bards put a lot of thought and work into what they're doing.

/quote]

I wouldn't feel too disappointed. If I were hypothetically playing a bard, and hypothetically working hard on my performances, I'd take satisfaction in knowing that I'd done the work. Whether others appreciated it or not is another matter. For instance, you couldn't pay me to listen to Enya, but s/he is well regarded and I have no doubt they work hard at their music. It's just not for me. That hardly invalidates his/her accomplishments.

[Cuusardo]

I'm not saying that it invalidates people and their work.  I am saying that a sense of disappointment comes when you work really hard at something and people just blow it off as spam.

[Barzalene]

I wouldn't feel too disappointed. If I were hypothetically playing a bard, and hypothetically working hard on my performances, I'd take satisfaction in knowing that I'd done the work. Whether others appreciated it or not is another matter. For instance, you couldn't pay me to listen to Enya, but s/he is well regarded and I have no doubt they work hard at their music. It's just not for me. That hardly invalidates his/her accomplishments.

I'm not saying that it invalidates people and their work.  I am saying that a sense of disappointment comes when you work really hard at something and people just blow it off as spam.

I don't get the distinction... but ok.

[jcarter]

I'm not saying that it invalidates people and their work.  I am saying that a sense of disappointment comes when you work really hard at something and people just blow it off as spam.

So what do you want people to do? Force themselves to be interested?

[spawnloser]

No, force them to roleplay their characters...and for example, characters from Tuluk have been raised KNOWING that art and bards are awesome.

[elvenchipmunk]

No, force them to roleplay their characters...and for example, characters from Tuluk have been raised KNOWING that art and bards are awesome.

(BTW my comment is not sarcastic in any way. I truthfully want the answer)

Can someone provide the help file saying this is indeed true? I thought I saw a Tuluki Roleplay helpfile and thought it might be in there, but couldn't find it. Is there another file I'm overlooking?

And also I don't think all characters in Tuluk were raised knowing bards are awesome. Some were raised to hate them and other such adjectives. It depends on your character.

[Tlaloc]

The General Documentation on Cities[/url]"]The society of Tuluk is based on strong ritual and symbolism. In all parts of its culture, levels of knowledge are unusually high, yet practical applications of knowledge were few. The citizens of the north have a well known hunger for art of any kind and of any quality. Magickers are shun like evil itself, and usually killed on sight.

Music, in this case, is an art form, and is, in fact, something most Tuluki enjoy like to have around. I'm sure not all Tuluki enjoy it, but it would be (in my opinion) a rare individual who didn't. This includes having an appreciation (at the very least) for crap art (or music), but those guys are passed over and live poor, impoverished lives.

[elvenchipmunk]

The General Documentation on Cities[/url]"]The society of Tuluk is based on strong ritual and symbolism. In all parts of its culture, levels of knowledge are unusually high, yet practical applications of knowledge were few. The citizens of the north have a well known hunger for art of any kind and of any quality. Magickers are shun like evil itself, and usually killed on sight.

Music, in this case, is an art form, and is, in fact, something most Tuluki enjoy like to have around. I'm sure not all Tuluki enjoy it, but it would be (in my opinion) a rare individual who didn't. This includes having an appreciation (at the very least) for crap art (or music), but those guys are passed over and live poor, impoverished lives.

Interesting. Of course, people can have very different likes in music, right? As in, not -everyone- likes the romantic/moving poems. Tulukis simply like art in one or many forms, but not necessarily music?

Edit: Could some citizens' like for music simply be that they envy bards because they're rich? As in, they don't particularly like the music, but they pretend to like it and smile and all that stuff because they wish they had the talent or something? I just find it hard to believe that Tulukis not liking music is such a rare occurence. I mean, they're all people, and people have likes and dislikes.

[Akaramu]

People who play Tulukis despite an OOC dislike for MUD art puzzle me.

Also, I don't see how music 'spam' is more disruptive than the spam other PCs generate.  :?

[Cuusardo]

The "spam" a performance generates adds to roleplay and atmosphere.  The "spam" created by someone sitting in a tavern that puts twenty chunks of stone, fifteen twigs, and twelve bolts of cloth into a container clutters up the screen.  Big difference.

[Tlaloc]

Interesting. Of course, people can have very different likes in music, right? As in, not -everyone- likes the romantic/moving poems. Tulukis simply like art in one or many forms, but not necessarily music?

Yes, and I was actually going to post on this very fact, after thinking about it for a bit. I think it's bit unrealistic (or at least, incredibly rare) for someone to 'not like music'. People aren't like that. How many people do you know actively hate music of all kinds? Instead, you usually get people who either love classical (and hate rock), love country (and hate rap), or love polkas (and hate taste).

On Zalanthas, this would be no different. Your character might hate singing, but is ready to get down and boogie at the next drum circle. A hard-core, fanatical Sun Legionairre might hate the political satire of the Elkinhym, thinking it walks too close to sedition, but might just love Irofel balads about how Allanak got its ass kicked that one time.

Edit: Could some citizens' like for music simply be that they envy bards because they're rich? As in, they don't particularly like the music, but they pretend to like it and smile and all that stuff because they wish they had the talent or something? I just find it hard to believe that Tulukis not liking music is such a rare occurence. I mean, they're all people, and people have likes and dislikes.

Uh, sure? This is entirelly possible, but again, I doubt there is a character in the world who hates all music. It's possible, just like it's possible to see an elf riding a kank...just very, very unlikley and I think there would have to be some exceptional circustances as to why someone would just hate music of all forms.

Edited to add: I should add that I think it -is- possible (and more likely) that someone in Tuluk could be born and raised a Tuluki, and just hate Tuluki music (maybe they love Arabet tunes, or secretly love those Allanaki dirges). However, it should be noted that musical tastes are often inherited through culture and upbringing...so again, there would  have to be some sort of exceptional circumstance to explain why a Tuluki born citizen who is patriotic in every other way hates Tuluki music.

I think muscial tastes are a great way to round out a character, and encourage everyone to consider what your character likes to listen to as a wonderful way to make a more three-dimensional character.

[elvenchipmunk]

I think that clears lots of things up, Tlaloc (for me). Thanks for the help file and clarification.

[Quirk]

Given that Tulukis are exposed to a much wider range of art and music than other people, you'd expect them to be more discriminating. A bard that wows them in Red Storm might not even rate a tip in Tuluk, and even the good bards will appeal to different tastes.

I don't personally rate bard spam on the whole as worse than spam-eating or spam-crafting in a tavern. It of course varies depending on the bard; some are producing great stuff, and you only regard it as "spam" when it's interfering with conversations that are important to your PC. It's not possible to tune it out as easily as real music; to borrow Allegory's example, it's as though someone puts coins in the jukebox, and it makes the person you're speaking to intersperse song lyrics into their sentences. We're somewhat more used to this in the context of the 'Net than in normal conversation, so it's tolerable, if irritating.

The worst bards, however, are up there with someone spamming an inappropriate command with a typo in the echo. Stilted butchery of rhyme and scansion is every bit as painful to those of us who happen to like poetry as typos are to grammar fetishists or wrong notes to musicians, and if the subject matter is also jarringly irrelevant to the character listening to it, then we swiftly end up with an Armageddon version of Cacofonix from Asterix.

Good poetry is astonishingly hard to write; the collected works of many of the great poets will fit in a book of a few hundred pages, with one poem per page, and that book, which represents a lifetime's effort, will for any individual reader contain poems that the reader does not care for. No-one should be ashamed of being unable to produce great poems, or even readable ones. And readable poetry is what you need if your song lyrics are unsupported by music - unless of course you've got the saving grace of the ballad, which is narrative. If the content of your song is interesting in its own right, and the song is being heard at a time when it's not a distraction, people won't care so much about technical polish. If however it's a song about how sad you feel at weekends, it had better be either funny or polished if we're to care.

[Quirk]

Oh, and an analogy came to mind.

Imagine if Armageddon were some sort of live action game, in which we all met up and acted out our characters. I'll give you a moment to recover from the hideous embarrassment that that mental image probably invokes.

Now, there are people in this live action fest who want to roleplay being musicians. They have instruments with them to play on. Unfortunately, many of them have never learned how to play those instruments. They are not deterred by this, but pluck discordant strings and make trumpets sound like damaged bagpipes. They then complain of other people's RP; it seems that everyone around them is making excuses to avoid their presence when they're playing, and they know for a fact that some of those characters avoiding them should love music.

Someone has to tell them that hard work on any particular song of theirs is not going to avail if they don't know how to make music. Someone has to tell them that the "atmosphere" they're creating doesn't make the rest of us feel more immersed in our RP, but distracts from it. Someone has to tell them that they have to find a way for their bard to be culturally relevant without trying to inveigle the rest of us into pretending that they know how to play their instrument. And all this has to be done without driving away the people wandering around with instruments they actually know how to play.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

I would like to hear more songs with historical material, such as about events that actually took place, great warriors and the like.

Start with Thrain Ironsword and make a drumming dwarvish warchant about him.

[Dresan]

Bards don't spam. Its really rude and insulting to be referring to someone's RP this way esspecially when often they took the time to create it.

Seriously, people go to tarverns they go to talk and interact, my interaction is no less important then anyone else's. If i'm talking to someone, we could be spamming away says and tells. That bothers you? That disrupt your 'important' conversation? Too stupid to keep up with the 'spam'? Tough. Deal with it or get up and go continue your oh so important RP somewhere else.

You don't like what the bard is playing. Deal with it ICly. Since it really does fall under the same catagory as my PC slaughtering a precious character of yours, the catagory being 'No One Gives A Shit'. Otherwise, while i understand that some of you are probably incapable of this, try to have some consideration for the fact that a bard's 'spam' probably took them longer to come up with then emote of walking up to the bar and sitting down.

[spawnloser]

I think the point Quirk was making was this: If you can't make your bard interesting, don't play a bard.

[Anonymous Bard]

Ironically, I got my first player kudos for a bardic performance.

[Quirk]

Bards don't spam. Its really rude and insulting to be referring to someone's RP this way esspecially when often they took the time to create it.

That was my intention, yes. If someone's going to inflict bad, self-indulgent poetry on me without my consent, I'm more than entitled to be acerbic. And as far as taking time goes, it may take you time and effort to evacuate your bowels, but I'm still not going to praise the result.

Please reread my musician analogy, and think about it. Are you really going to suggest we should sit around pretending jangling messes of wrong notes are music?

Seriously, people go to tarverns they go to talk and interact, my interaction is no less important then anyone else's.

Key word here: interaction. Unsolicited monologues aren't usually classed as interaction.

If i'm talking to someone, we could be spamming away says and tells. That bothers you? That disrupt your 'important' conversation?

If you're talking to somebody else, then even if it's irrelevant to my character, you've got a good enough reason to be inconveniencing me with screen scroll that I won't be grumpy. If, however, you enter a crowded tavern and start talking to yourself via "say" as fast as you can, yes, that would bother me too.

Too stupid to keep up with the 'spam'?

You seem to misunderstand badly. Spam is a needless inconvenience you have to work round. It can be worked around, and we all do it, but it doesn't make it less irritating.

You don't like what the bard is playing. Deal with it ICly.

And this brings us full circle back to Northlander's suggestion that we jeer and boo bards that OOCly annoy us. I take it that you are, after all, in accord with this idea?

Otherwise, while i understand that some of you are probably incapable of this, try to have some consideration for the fact that a bard's 'spam' probably took them longer to come up with then emote of walking up to the bar and sitting down.

Frankly, I don't care. If you come into a crowded tavern where people are trying to RP and spam-post some crappy poem you wrote earlier, you're still a nuisance to everyone around you, no matter how long it took you to write. It's disgustingly rude.

If, on the other hand, you check with people in advance, and have at least one person in the audience who wants to hear your song before you begin, then your behaviour becomes justifiable. Better still is to be playing in some place where opting out of hearing you doesn't require leaving the main RP hotspot.