Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!

[Northlander]

There's an awful lot of bards around Tuluk now. I ought to know, I play one myself. I haven't a clue about Allanak but the "Characters You Don't See Often"-thread leapt in on a bard subtrack and I thought: "Hey! Maybe we can discuss bards over here instead!"

I don't like bards, not really. They give crappy ten-minute rhyme in the middle of a tavern and get me feeling constricted - I can't keep a conversation meanwhile because it'll piss off their player and also be hindered by the spam. And while a tall tale can put rumours into the game, the more common poem about the height of the Scaien, that's supposed to touch your character, rarely does - because you as the player don't think the poem's anything special. Let's face it, even with a six-stringed lute we're not Bob Dylan.

There was one point raised about too many bards having all their skills topped upon entering the game. I see this point, really, but the critique ought apply equally to Aides who don't need to go through cushion-school. And these off-the-street Sun Tzus. Like most all players, I went into the game thinking my character had learnt a little something already in his life. He'd have learnt one instrument quite good, I thought, and the basics of the common ones. The problem probably is that near all of us bard-players, with a few honoured exceptions, work as hard as we can with the rhymes and prose. Now, hear this. Few players are as good at making songs as they want their character to be, and you oughtn't care about their feelings but just send down the fly and take a piss at those your character doesn't like.

Actually, that's my full suggestion. When you see a bard you don't want to listen to, have your character not want to listen to him either. It's not far-fetched that your character thinks they suck despite their emotes about brilliant fingers. If they're Apprentices or Seekers, they're far from being so high-up you won't throw insults down the bar. When they emote about VNPC:s applauding, bring a few VNPC:s into your booing.

I have a suggestion for my fellow bards, as well. Try to do verse with long lines, or fit many lines into one 'sing'. This cuts down on the spam and length of your performance while it oughtn't hinder your creativity overly. Also, not everyone might actually be allowed to play inside a place like the Sanctuary or the Firestorm. According to the docs, bards past the apprentice stage but not yet master bards struggle with eachother for a spot outside the Lucky Ghaati. -Outside- the lucky Ghaati. Street-singing I adore from an OOC perspective because it always lets those who want to stay stay, and those who want to go, go.

Let's hear a few more thoughts on bards. Do they do anything for the game or is it just a circle-jerk of RL writer-wannabes? Got any suggestions for me and us prosaic tiddlers?

[Nakkibard]

You play a bard, but don't like them? Heh...

I don't know about the current situation in Tuluk, but if there are too many bards around, perhaps more players could consider the option of playing a bard in Allanak. I don't personally understand why everyone flocks to Tuluk, of course the culture and the bardic circle can enhance roleplay, but the (PC) competition is huge. And the noble houses in the south don't generally consider bardic arts as 'barbaric nonsense'. I believe Allanak has a greater musical tradition than it is given credit for, because of being  under-represented by artist PCs. The general language used in songs, style, and theme, would of course be quite different from Tuluk.

I agree that less bardic PCs should start as starlets who have nothing left to learn. I guess most players don't enjoy roleplaying poor performances - in Allanak, a crappy song could even bring death upon the unlucky bard. Perhaps they could specialize on one instrument or singing and learn the rest later on.

10 minute songs seems extreme to me. Mine generally last around 3 minutes, 5 at most, with perhaps 20 emotes / sing lines. I try to have 10 second intervals between each emote to not spam everyone to death, and I don't mind if other PCs talk and emote in between. What is the difference between a bard performance filling up some of your screen and talks / emotes of other PCs not currently interacting with you doing the same? If you can ignore the chatty PC couple at the other table, you could easily just overlook the bard as well. If there are many PCs filling the screen, I'll just not perform until things are a little quieter, unless I'm expected to perform at a specific event.

I disagree with booing a bard PC who is performing a well emoted song. The player put quite some effort into writing that up, and if you or your PC generally don't like music, just ignore him or roll your eyes and leave. I doubt booing would be a perfectly IC option in all cases. The bard might be an assassin, or have friends who won't do any more business with you. He could even be the special pet of the grumpy templar over there who is just looking for a reason to get rid of you. If you are a noble or a dwarf with a focus to boo any bard he sees, then I could see it as realistic.

[Medena]

They give crappy ten-minute rhyme in the middle of a tavern and get me feeling constricted - I can't keep a conversation meanwhile because it'll piss off their player and also be hindered by the spam.

I have a couple of points on this. First, I think you -can- keep a conversation going.  During the conversation, you could have an emote worked in to your dialogue of tapping a foot in time with the song, glancing over at the bard, or even scowling over at the bard. After all, the person has presumably started performing uninvited and why -should- they expect to get undivided attention from all those present in the tavern?  Secondly, while I think "crappy ten-minute rhyme" is unduly harsh, I do think that bards often do not pick appropriate material for tavern performances.  They should save the long epic tales interspersed with virtuoso instrumentals for the contests and use short, snappy stuff for taverns.

And while a tall tale can put rumours into the game, the more common poem about the height of the Scaien, that's supposed to touch your character, rarely does - because you as the player don't think the poem's anything special.

I think bards are really underutilized in the game for disseminating information, furthering political agendas, and other purposeful uses. It can be really tricky trying to do this though, mainly because of how fast moving the game is. The right opportunities don't come along that often, and when they do both the patron (in the loosest sense of the word, ie. not necessarily the formalized patrons of Tuluk) and bard have to move really quickly else the issue is no longer topical. It's wonderful when opportunities do come along though and I'd like to see more of them seized.

Few players are as good at making songs as they want their character to be, and you oughtn't care about their feelings but just send down the fly and take a piss at those your character doesn't like.

I have no illusions about my own poetry writing skills -- I write utter drivel. I like to believe though that it can still be entertaining drivel. Either entertaining IC'ly, where PC's enjoy it for other reasons than the exquisite metre or rhyme scheme or entertaining OOC'ly, where players enjoy it for how very bad it is. One of my bards was once booed by a group of PC's in the Tooth and I thought it was awesome!  My bard had a regular gig playing there and he couldn't have cared less about what he considered their boorish behaviour since he still got the 'sid anyway. And OOC'ly I found it wonderful not to just be ignored as if I had never performed.  Ignoring a performance is inconsiderate to the player, not reacting to it in-character.

Also, not everyone might actually be allowed to play inside a place like the Sanctuary or the Firestorm. According to the docs, bards past the apprentice stage but not yet master bards struggle with eachother for a spot outside the Lucky Ghaati. -Outside- the lucky Ghaati. Street-singing I adore from an OOC perspective because it always lets those who want to stay stay, and those who want to go, go.

I've done a fair amount of street performing both in Allanak and Tuluk. It can be fun but is generally not very rewarding, either from a monetary or an attention-garnering perspective, as people almost never stop to watch.

[Barzalene]

I agree with the originial poster, and if I too were in some way connected to the bardic scene. I worry that my feelings would be hurt as I do put ooc time and effort into my performances, but on the other hand... I have no delusions that I'm some sort of talented whatever anyway, so I supposed I could be pursuaded to suck up a little booing.

And for well emoted, as referred to by a nakkibard, what does that mean? Do we expect our pc's to be treated better if we emote better than the next guy? Or are we emoting that we're performing well, and in that case should be not spend more time saying what it is we do, not how well we do it?

[Spud]

I personally hate most bards, no offence to the players. When I do play in Tuluk I usually show this in some way or another. My character will probably ignore the bard, but I'll atleast throw out some emotes to show this.

[LoD]

Bards like to perform where the PC's are, taverns.  They want their RP to be witnessed, they want people to have some background, and they want the potential for recognization and reward.

There's a couple things that would be interesting to add:

Performance Stages

It might be interesting if each tavern had a "stage" that could be rented for a performances.  Anyone not using this stage would be asked to either rent the space, shut up, or take a hike.  The stage would work in similar fashion to the "back room" that some of the taverns already have.  People in the tavern could choose to "watch" or "listen" to the stage and see all of the echoes of the performance, or ignore them to keep the spam away from their table conversation.

The stage would also let everyone in the room quickly know:

:arrow: Someone is performing.
:arrow: Who exactly is performing.
:arrow: If they want to listen or discuss something else.

An example of this might be:

Code Select Expand



Rowdy Tavern [NES]
Warped boards and mud bricks form the walls of this ramshackle tavern,
permeated by a thousand tiny cracks and knotholes.  Running the length
of the western wall is an old bar, nicked and cut by years of faithful
service.  Suspicious stains dominate the worn floor of this establishment,
the footing as precarious as the temper of its patrons.  Flush with the
northwest corner of the room is a cramped stage, raised slightly from the
floor for a good view of the room.
A rugged, bushy-browed barkeep stands here, behind the bar.

>rent stage
A rugged, bushy-browed barkeep says, in sirihish:
   "Cost ya 30 'sid fer the stage, my friend."

<gets coins>

>rent stage
A rugged, bushy-browed barkeep collects your coins and shows you to the stage.

WHAT PEOPLE SEE IN THE ROOM
--------------------------------------

The lanky, fair-haired man steps onto the cramped stage.

>watch stage
You begin watching a cramped stage.

On the stage, the lanky, fair-haired man smooths a nervous hand over his silk vest.

On the stage, the lanky, fair-haired man says, in sirhishi:
   "For my first performance, I give you Faust's Fateful Day."

>watch none
You stop watching the stage.

This might accomplish a few things:

:arrow: Cut down on room spam.
:arrow: Cut down on the number of bards performing or trying to perform.
:arrow: Provide a better vehicle for performances in PC gathering spots.

-LoD

[spawnloser]

Booing a performance is giving the PLAYER attention, and if it is in character for your character for your character to boo, do it, I say.  The player is getting interaction and it is all IC interaction...but at least the player knows that you the player is paying attention even if your character isn't.

I also have to agree that most bards come out knowing everything and being perfect.  My most recent bard was a good performer, but not quite on with knowing what to perform when, and it was fun as hell, the trouble I got into for what I performed.  Screwing up is fun as hell.

[EonBlueApocalypse]

Bards like to perform where the PC's are, taverns.  They want their RP to be witnessed, they want people to have some background, and they want the potential for recognization and reward.

There's a couple things that would be interesting to add:

Performance Stages

It might be interesting if each tavern had a "stage" that could be rented for a performances.  Anyone not using this stage would be asked to either rent the space, shut up, or take a hike.  The stage would work in similar fashion to the "back room" that some of the taverns already have.  People in the tavern could choose to "watch" or "listen" to the stage and see all of the echoes of the performance, or ignore them to keep the spam away from their table conversation.

The stage would also let everyone in the room quickly know:

:arrow: Someone is performing.
:arrow: Who exactly is performing.
:arrow: If they want to listen or discuss something else.

An example of this might be:

Code Select Expand



Rowdy Tavern [NES]
Warped boards and mud bricks form the walls of this ramshackle tavern,
permeated by a thousand tiny cracks and knotholes.  Running the length
of the western wall is an old bar, nicked and cut by years of faithful
service.  Suspicious stains dominate the worn floor of this establishment,
the footing as precarious as the temper of its patrons.  Flush with the
northwest corner of the room is a cramped stage, raised slightly from the
floor for a good view of the room.
A rugged, bushy-browed barkeep stands here, behind the bar.

>rent stage
A rugged, bushy-browed barkeep says, in sirihish:
   "Cost ya 30 'sid fer the stage, my friend."

<gets coins>

>rent stage
A rugged, bushy-browed barkeep collects your coins and shows you to the stage.

WHAT PEOPLE SEE IN THE ROOM
--------------------------------------

The lanky, fair-haired man steps onto the cramped stage.

>watch stage
You begin watching a cramped stage.

On the stage, the lanky, fair-haired man smooths a nervous hand over his silk vest.

On the stage, the lanky, fair-haired man says, in sirhishi:
   "For my first performance, I give you Faust's Fateful Day."

>watch none
You stop watching the stage.

This might accomplish a few things:

:arrow: Cut down on room spam.
:arrow: Cut down on the number of bards performing or trying to perform.
:arrow: Provide a better vehicle for performances in PC gathering spots.

-LoD

Neat idea.

[Dresan]

I'm just going to copy and paste what i wrote earlier because i think it applies here:

Now the following applies only for me, everyone else is different.

Coming up with a non-twinkish ways of training my PC with emotes, living his life in general and/or coming up with a clever way to kill lord fancy pants junior is not hard for me, however coming up with a song, poem or story is. A simple heart felt poem alone can take me more then a week.(Damn you Valantines Day!!).

I've had one or two of my characters (never actually played a bard PC) tell stories these are usually adventures that happened icly or adapted from other stories i have heard and while they are generally liked i still find it hard...very hard to pull it off.

I mean it doesn't take me very long to come up with a few "colourful" emote when sparring, i do it on the go, however i don't think i can go into a bar and compose a short song, story or poem without couple of hours of work and preperation before hand.

Like i said i can go and make a dumass character and make a fool out of myself in a tavern anytime i want, a competent bard with few good songs, poems or stories under its belt is alot tougher...for me at least.

Too many magickers, too many free muls, too many whatever...maybe, its possible...
Too many bards though? I personally don't think its possible. While some may argue its better to go out and live out adventures and stories, i still think those that put the time into coming up with stories, poems and songs add alot to the culture of the world.

I kinda like LoD idea but on the other hand i rather people not have the options of ignoring the bards. Alot of things in this game are spammy, i rarely find bards to be one of those. That said, how someone tells a story or song is just as important as what they are telling, so asking people to do write it a certain way so it can be less spammy can take away from what is being told.

On the topic of bards and risking slight derailment i'd like to remind people of that idea of documenting old plots, in-game stories and other things for special apped bard, sages and historians...so my character can learn ICly what actually happened during the occupation, who was involved? what did they do? Or few RL years from now a player might be able to learn ICly, the amazing plot the imms told him or her was behind a loved PC death. History should be passed down though bard and sages and alot of stuff should have been recorded somewhere but players move on and everything seems to be quickly forgotten ICly and OOCly at least.

Again its probably just an appreciation for something that is very hard for me to do, but i have no problems with there being good or 'perfect' bards around.

[jstorrie]

Playing a song is all right, if you're a bard, but generally (for Tuluki bards at least) your bardic tradition suggests you focus on another activity: storytelling, loregathering, conversation, satire, etc. Generally speaking, these are much more involving of other players and much more interesting than a quick rhyme.

If you don't like a PC bard's work, you should pan them, with a caveat - that being that in Tuluk the bard PC may be higher on the social ladder than you are and could cause trouble for you. That doesn't mean you shouldn't still gossip quietly or insult them out of earshot - or in earshot, after a few drinks. The disconnect is that just as many bard PCs seem to be more skilled than they should be, because of the player's own writing skill, many bard PCs will seem much more awful than they should be because of their player's own writing skill. That is to say that the PC, having trained and performed poetry for years, should not write as poorly as the player who's just dabbling.

One of my few big pet peeves with bards is seeing someone's songs go up on the local bulletin boards after a performance or two. Odds are that Random Amos is not going to memorize your stuff after a few listens and start spreading it around, not even in Tuluk. If you're proud of a new piece that you've written, find more excuses to perform it in-game. There are generally few times that you should have VNPCs spread your song/poem/story for you.

And finally, read read read the documentation, especially those on music, and if you have access, the Poet's Circle docs. Each city has distinctive forms which most players are not really taking the time to build on. Most PCs should also have a repertoire of the most common basics - like Ladies Love A Stone Mage, in 'Nak, or Wind Blows Over the Plains, in Tuluk - and be prepared to play them often.

[jstorrie]

OH, also, also!

There is nothing that I find more aggravating than seeing someone recite a poem in-game like

say So I got up on my kank,
say And things smelled really rank,
say My buddy asked, hew what was it?
say Whoops my boots were caked with shit

Maybe this is a bad example because as a jokey limerick you would emphasize the beats, but you never ever read real poetry like that. You read it just as grammar would dictate, so even if you're reading like

Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

you would just read that as two normal sentences and not give extra pause-time two the commas at the ends of lines. So similarly, if you're reciting poetry in-game, and you don't want it to sound like a bawdy street-limerick, don't 'split up the lines.' The whole business of iambs, meter, and all that is so that you can have some rhythm in your rhyme without awkwardly pausing all of the time. A well-written piece - at least a well-written piece of the type Zalanthans would be familiar with - has its rhythm built into the internal sequence of rhyme and sonance, not put in as an afterthought with line breaks. Because you don't read out the line breaks.

Anyway, this has been a bit of a roundabout way of saying a pretty simple thing, but if your Zalanthan poetry sounds like a Hallmark card you're on the wrong track. Don't be too sing-songy, if you're trying to play a classy poet.

[bardbard#4]

I definitely agree with what you're saying about bards being too skilled from the beginning.  I played a bard recently-ish and tried to address this issue consciously.  At his first competition, I had him emoting some nervousness, fuck-ups on his instrument, missed pitches with his voice, and I think a few other things.

What was the result?

HE GOT MOTHERFUCKING REAMED OUT BY THE NPC JUDGES AND LOST THE COMPETITION.

It was one of the best atmospheric scenes I have ever played, and I really am thankful that the staff jumped all over what I was trying to do and actually came down hard on the poor sod.  I wish more people would follow my example but...meh.

[Dresan]

OH, also, also!

There is nothing that I find more aggravating than seeing someone recite a poem in-game like

say So I got up on my kank,
say And things smelled really rank,
say My buddy asked, hew what was it?
say Whoops my boots were caked with shit

Maybe this is a bad example because as a jokey limerick you would emphasize the beats, but you never ever read real poetry like that. You read it just as grammar would dictate, so even if you're reading like

Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

you would just read that as two normal sentences and not give extra pause-time two the commas at the ends of lines. So similarly, if you're reciting poetry in-game, and you don't want it to sound like a bawdy street-limerick, don't 'split up the lines.' The whole business of iambs, meter, and all that is so that you can have some rhythm in your rhyme without awkwardly pausing all of the time. A well-written piece - at least a well-written piece of the type Zalanthans would be familiar with - has its rhythm built into the internal sequence of rhyme and sonance, not put in as an afterthought with line breaks. Because you don't read out the line breaks.

Anyway, this has been a bit of a roundabout way of saying a pretty simple thing, but if your Zalanthan poetry sounds like a Hallmark card you're on the wrong track. Don't be too sing-songy, if you're trying to play a classy poet.

I don't mind poems sounding like zlanthian halmark cards, i like hallmark cards. I don't think the person is on the 'wrong track' i think the person has another style of writting. I can understand someone's RP being critiqued but not writting styles.

I don't know about anyone else but all this thread has done is possibly ensure i never attempt to play a bard.

[Anonymous kank with wings]

Here was a post made by someone in another thread that I think has some merit:

Some people mention the difficulty of listening to long "songs".

I suggest that the sing command be remedied to use the slash character / as a divider. The bard could then opt (NOT BE FORCED TO) to sing verse by verse.

So instead of,

Code Select Expand


The multi-hued bard sings, in sirihish:
   "A young apprentice, you hold me to be.."

<bunches of stuff happens>

The multi-hued bard sings, in sirihish:
   "caught between a mek and the Silt Sea."

<more random conversation, people drinking and eating>

The multi-hued bard sings, in sirihish, trying to rise above the crowd:
   "Hypnotized by you if I should linger.."

<even more messages, as if the crowd is making an attempt to fight back>

The multi-hued bard sings, in sirihish, at the top of his voice:
   "staring at the ring about your finger."


There could be:

>sing A young apprentice, you hold me to be../caught between a mek and the Silt Sea./(softly) Hypnotized by you if I should linger../(softly) staring at the ring about your finger.

Code Select Expand


The multi-hued bard sings, in sirihish:
   "A young apprentice, you hold me to be.."
   "caught between a mek and the Silt Sea."
The multi-hued bard sings, in sirihish, softly:
   "Hypnotized by you if I should linger.."
The multi-hued bard sings, in sirihish, softly:
   "staring at the ring about your finger."

>

The code could limit this to 4 or 6 lines of verse to avoid scrolling others' screens intolerably.

[Nao]

I find it a lot easier to listen to the style of songs that the bard int he barrel plays - they actually tell a story than to the typical tuluki ones that keep telling you how great tuluk, wine or sex with a kank is and go on for another 20 lines without really saying anything else.

[Anonymous Bard]

[One of my bards was once booed by a group of PC's in the Tooth and I thought it was awesome!  My bard had a regular gig playing there and he couldn't have cared less about what he considered their boorish behaviour since he still got the 'sid anyway. And OOC'ly I found it wonderful not to just be ignored as if I had never performed.  Ignoring a performance is inconsiderate to the player, not reacting to it in-character.

I agree with this, the only part (in the OP's post) I disagree with is booing a bard simply because of OOC dislike, and supporting this with VNPCs.

[jstorrie]

I don't mind poems sounding like zlanthian halmark cards, i like hallmark cards. I don't think the person is on the 'wrong track' i think the person has another style of writting. I can understand someone's RP being critiqued but not writting styles.

I wouldn't mind having a unicorn, but I doubt it'll happen. Poetry is simply not recited that way by actual poets and seeing it done is jarring. This isn't a question of writing style - Zalanthan bards aren't even literate. It's a question of speaking style and living human beings do not insert line and page breaks when they speak.

[jcarter]

I ignore musicians -constantly-. There's a local cafe here that I usually go to that's a constant hangout of my friends. Whenever I go and there's a musician playing, they're the last thing on my mind. Ignoring a bard isn't OOC or anything. If anything, it's more realistic than sitting there and listening intently to their every word.

[Quirk]

I'm going to venture a "hell yeah" here. Now, I haven't played in Tuluk since my return, but I remember bards well from back in the day. Once, playing a noble, I had to judge a bardic competition. Only supreme self-control prevented me from emoting gnawing off a limb to escape.

I've always found it very rare that a bard coming into a relatively busy tavern, sitting down, and starting to sing leads to a positive RP experience for me. Firstly, there's the extra spam. Secondly, there's the problem that even well-written song lyrics can be dull to read, and are usually distracting from whatever I was focused on getting my character to do. Thirdly, many of the song lyrics that assault my screen are not well-written. And fourth and worst of all is that some bards are power-emoters who call up rapturous VNPC applause and leave me in no doubt through their emotes that I'm hearing the most beautiful song ever. I think Northlander's suggestion of introducing a few booing VNPCs to balance matters against those last mentioned has sincere merit.

(There are exceptions, of course. My fondest bard-related memory took place shortly after the Rebellion. A bard came into the Sanctuary, sat down, and inflicted a butchered, "Zalanthanised" version of U2's "Sunday, Bloody Sunday" on us. Questions were asked about what exactly he was trying to say, and he responded by condemning the violence of the terrorist rebels. The bar was full of ex-Rebels, many of whom post-Rebellion held important civic posts. The bard was taken outside and disposed of brutally, with full militia sanction. Seeing a crappy bard get a deserved and on-the-spot comeuppance was hugely OOCly gratifying.)

LoD's idea makes a lot of sense to me, providing a convenient way of letting us filter out bad bards. Northlander's suggestion of street music I applaud likewise.

Yes, playing a bard is OOCly far harder than it should be. You as a player have to be entertaining to the rest of us as players, not just as characters. It's unfair, but if you're going to turn our characters from actors in a scene into spectators, you need to put on a show worth seeing. A few bards are capable of this. The rest we need to jeer and boo until their bards stop making music or become better. It's harsh, but if it preserves the rest of the PC population from having their conversations hijacked by Hallmark rhymes and emoted perfect pitch, it's very necessary.

I'm done with criticism; now it's time for the constructive part.

Ballads are the way forward for singers. If you can tell a story in your song, particularly an interesting story your audience don't know, you justify your existence, and we all suddenly become more inclined to tip. We come to Arm for narrative, not introspection. Songs that have us wondering what will happen in the next verse just don't seem as long, and might just encourage us to stand outside a tavern to find out.

It doesn't have to be a song. Offer your services as a storyteller, and sit at a table with people, and tell them a story. Please don't fall back on the Zalanthan equivalent of Goldilocks, but be imaginative, be satirical. If it helps, write down a few story seeds to get you started and keep them around - e.g. the adventurer who found Steinal, and what followed him home; the elf who was a templar for a day; the feud between the gurths and the tregils.

Heck, if you can satirise current events with impromptu short bursts of theatre, go to it. But make them short, and collect your wages from the people who wish you to get across their point of view, not the bar patrons. (And, if you want to live a while, be careful you don't attach the characters of your scurrilous story too closely to their real Zalanthan counterparts).

Edited: because Quirk is an incurable grammatical pedant

[Dresan]

I wouldn't mind having a unicorn.

I'm happy for you, really i am.

Poetry is simply not recited that way by actual poets and seeing it done is jarring. This isn't a question of writing style - Zalanthan bards aren't even literate. It's a question of speaking style and living human beings do not insert line and page breaks when they speak.

You are critiquing the way information is OOCLY being inputing into a text  Mud. Therefore it is the writing style of the player, who has taken the time to write a piece for the game, not their roleplaying you are talking about.

How actual poets recite things in RL? I Don't know. Depends the poet, the poem...what i do know is that in the game it would be more or less done through 'writting' emotes and descriptions, describing the voice and the body movements. Again you were describing how you think someone should be writting things into the text mud meaning you aren't judging their roleplaying your judging their writting style.

That said if someone has taken the time to write something, and they think splitting the lines will give what they wrote some more effect or make it clearer...then they should go for it. I prefer seeing "halmark' type verses with some emotes as opposed to having to wait a while and getting hit by a large chunk of data. Its easier to read and follow along that way.

If a character wants to ignore a bard, thats icly (and oocly) their business, i have no problem with that but some of us do want to listen. Bards of any type have always been more entertaining while sitting at a tavern then being spammed by people playing footsies or worse... the angry brooding non social PC sitting in the corner.

[Quirk]

Bards of any type have always been more entertaining while sitting at a tavern then being spammed by people playing footsies or worse... the angry brooding non social PC sitting in the corner.

To espouse a contrary view, in my eyes bad poetry really is worse, much worse, than no poetry at all (this goes double for "Zalanthan" versions of songs I recognise). I would love having greater ability to ignore bards I dislike. They do a lot more harm to my RP experience than brooding antisocial PCs do.

[jstorrie]

Dresan, are you suggesting that if I have my PCs split up all of their sentences in strange and jarring ways, for no roleplaying reason, with unnecessarily bad grammar, that's fine because it's just my writing style?

Portioning your poetry into one or two sentences isn't wall-of-text, it's properly conveying how your character is speaking. I have no IC recourse when I see something split along artificial line breaks than to have my PCs think 'krath's fires, that one sure doesn't know how to recite a poem. what a stupid amateur.' I think it is likely that not everyone is aiming to play a perpetually stupid amateur. This is why I am pointing out that poems are not recited with line breaks. I am not suggesting that they are bad writers (maybe they are, maybe they aren't). I'm saying that the way that they are having their characters act is not consistent with what they are trying to do and as such if they wish to improve the quality of their roleplaying they may wish to refine their PCs' actions so as to more accurately communicate what they are trying to do.

PCs generally don't recite poetry very often, though, so this is mostly a moot point. I was just trying to inject a bit more information into the dicussion for other peoples' benefits.

[Dresan]

Dresan, are you suggesting that if I have my PCs split up all of their sentences in strange and jarring ways, for no roleplaying reason, with unnecessarily bad grammar, that's fine because it's just my writing style?

Portioning your poetry into one or two sentences isn't wall-of-text, it's properly conveying how your character is speaking. I have no IC recourse when I see something split along artificial line breaks than to have my PCs think 'krath's fires, that one sure doesn't know how to recite a poem. what a stupid amateur.' I think it is likely that not everyone is aiming to play a perpetually stupid amateur. This is why I am pointing out that poems are not recited with line breaks. I am not suggesting that they are bad writers (maybe they are, maybe they aren't). I'm saying that the way that they are having their characters act is not consistent with what they are trying to do and as such if they wish to improve the quality of their roleplaying they may wish to refine their PCs' actions so as to more accurately communicate what they are trying to do.

PCs generally don't recite poetry very often, though, so this is mostly a moot point. I was just trying to inject a bit more information into the dicussion for other peoples' benefits.

Usually people start new lines to emulate pauses in speech. What i'm saying is seeing a poem being conveyed(this one is short but hopefully portrays the general idea):

say Roses are red.
say Voilets are blue.
say Sugar is sweet.
say And you are you.

say Roses are red, voilets are blue
say Sugar is sweet and so are you.

say Roses are red, voilets are blue, sugar is sweet and so are you.

does not bother bother me at all since being a bard is hard enough, everyone seems to be a critic, on top of the usual is the piece too long or too boring or too spammy hardships some bards go through. Either way it is not bad gammer to me, one seems to have more pauses thats about it.

Though jstorrie i do understand what your saying...its just that how a piece is oocly being inputting does not distract me from enjoying it or icly thinking less of the poet. Apparently thats not the same for everyone, but   thats life, everyone is different.

Now i'm just thinking of the stories my PCs has told, thinking of going back through the logs, were they too long, too boring, was i focing PCs to shut up and listen...were they just fucking idle and ignored it. Were the sentences grammatically correct or just plain jarring.None of them left til the story was done and thanked my PC for telling it so thats something but eh.  

EDITTED Bit of grammer.

[elvenchipmunk]

I typically am annoyed whenever a bard interrupts what I'm doing in a tavern. That's just me. I only see 'songs' IG as spam, yet I still almost always play in Tuluk.

Something I seem to remember reading about in the OP's post was something about being rude and booing the character off the stage etc.

Thing is, often the bards playing the songs have 'connections' (or claim to) with templars, nobles, bad-ass winged demons who can spit liquid nitrogen into your eye sockets, etc. Therefore making it unfeasible to do this unless your character wishes for a swift head-chopping (or subtle one...work that one around your brain).

While I don't think having lots of bards in the game hurts it, I certainly -do think that having the amount of...classy? beautiful? picturesque? (however you'd like to describe it) in game as can be seen with our current situation can indeed hurt the game. Although I realize that sounds harsh and I seem like a heartless jack-ass, keep in mind that I simply mean it hurts the game only a little, and only in one aspect; It takes grittiness from the game, Tuluk specifically, which leads to people calling Tuluk the 'pussy-town' or what-have-you.

I would just like to see more of the 'har har har kankin's fun let's go kill ourselves a skinny' bards in the game. You know, the ones with rotten teeth, funny accents, funnily pronounced words and very little talent. It's the effort that counts, sometimes.

That's my take on it. ENJOY.

[Reiloth]

Having played bards in the past, and playing one currently, its really distressing to see all these harsh criticisms of poetry IG and bards in general.

I think Quirk had the most constructive things to say. Ballads, Storytelling, and straying away from singing about how sad you are that your mate died of the pox.

I think that bards, both in the North and the South, add a considerable amount to Armageddon. If the game on a day to day basis is prose, then Bards add the poetry. I love sitting and listening to a bard tell a good story, hell I love sitting and watching a Kuraci veteran tell a story. I love listening to poetry and what have you.

I agree that it is ridiculous for an Apprentice or even Seeker bard to enter a tavern, thinking s/he is the shit, and perform a song, and throw down the mic, expecting people to jump up in racous applause and throw money at them. I think a tenative bard, being asked by a Noble to perform, doing so, and humbly thanking those who appreciated it, and averting his gaze from the PC's, NPC's, and VNPC's who booed him or are talking shit about him, is just as plausible, and i think even more realistic.

I also think that Bards really shouldn't start out as know-it-alls. I love bards that fuck up. I fuck up all the time. I'm not an ego-maniac that thinks he can learn no more. I think it would be silly to play an Apprentice of the Circle who can play at the level of a Master Bard, according to his emotes and those amazing songs that bring people to tears.

i'm just a bit perturbed that theres such a harsh view of Bards, which I think add a great deal to the oral history and culture of both Allanak and Tuluk.

I think putting on IC boards in a City (A CITY) of people, of your "really popular songs" is tooting your own horn. If I wrote a song called "Shitty shit mc shitty shit and his travelling banjo kazoo" and decided "Hell, this song is fucking the SHIT. LITERALLY." and then decided "Well, Everyone in (city) LOVES this SHIT. ITS FUGGIN AWESOME!! THEY LOVE IT SO MUCH, THEY MEMORIZE THE LYRICS, EVEN THOUGH THEY CAN'T WRITE!" Thats ridic. pure ridic. Even if a Master Bard wrote an amazing song, the plebians of Tuluk would not worship him or her enough to memorize every word of this Masterpiece.

In sum, I think if Bards, particularly in Tuluk, read the Docs a bit closer, stuck to the basics, sang more of the classics, made mistakes just as people in combat get hit from time to time, and weren't automatically the shit at a competition especially, all y'all would want us around.

just a bit of rambling thought.

EDIT: I think watching a Bard in a Tavern is comprable in annoyingness to a half-giant RPing that he's "slightly slow but not retarded". There's lots of room for improvement in all of our roleplay, but i'd rather listen to a Bard sing a song he spent two hours writing, then listen to hunters talk about sandstorms.