The DEFINITIVE list of nouns that can be used in sdescs

[mansa]

I think it would help especially new players if every other NPC didn't have a word in their sdesc that PCs aren't allowed to use.

Well, NPCs don't change jobs.  NPCs remain doing what they do, for the rest of their lives.  That's the major different between PCs and NPCs.  That's part of the reason why you can have 'SOLDIER' NPCs, and 'BEGGAR' NPCs.  Because they won't change and they won't get rich.

PCs will.

[Anonymous]

So we have:

teen
teenager
boy
girl
youth
adolescent
lass
lad
mutant/freak -> special cases
child
man
woman
adult
male
female
human
dwarf
elf
half-elf
halfling
half-giant
harridan
hag
crone
giant
brute
youngster
chap
fellow
bloke
broad
dame
matron
blonde
brunette
red-head
tomboy
slave
adolescent
amputee
spinster - I would argue that only nobility can marry, thus anyone elderly could be considered a spinster

[Pantoufle]

That waif should be rejected is rather irksome.  I'm awfully curious on what grounds it's considered unacceptable.  Especially considering the keyword 'breed' (not half-breed, just breed) is somewhat common.  What on earth is a "breed"?  It's a colloquialism for half-breed but thereto again, half-breed could imply mul or half-elf interchangably.  As such, half-breed and breed should not be permitted.  Waif, on the other hand, is simply ... a waif.  Someone scrawny, frail and all that.  Consult your dictionaries, quibble at your leisure, but waif can and does mean a scrawny, underfed individual, as in: Look at that model, she's such a waif!

Half-giant should always be half-giant and never giant, since giants are legendary creatures in the game.

Kid and lad are slang words and logic therefore dictates that allowing these terms would be akin to allowing dude or bloke.  They aren't proper English words.  It's like using the word 'dunno' in an essay when you're trying to say 'do not know'.  I know a large majority of you are opposed to boy and child because it invokes cutesy images unbefitting with the ArmageddonMUD theme, but I'd rather see boy accepted and kid not since the former is a bonafide English word, the latter is slang.  By what logic is kid more acceptable than: the bodacious babe?

I also dislike "Krath-burned" or "Krath-dark" or "Krath-anything-else" because Krath is essentially a colloquialism, a shortening of Suk-Krath.

Maiden doesn't make a great deal of sense but it's been used so much that I think it a near hypocricy to suddenly begin rejecting the word.  We could always assume 'maiden' is synonymous with 'woman' by Zalanthas standards.

Elvish (or dwarvish or anything else -ish) is a reference to items, not people.  A person is elven, a rug made by elves is elvish.  A person is dwarven, a sword made by dwarves is dwarvish.

[Bluefae]

Wow?  Am I the only one that thinks this is really constricting?  To make an sdesc are we going to have to go over this list and choose from the ones there?

No, honey, you're not.  In both my life and my writting, I place a premium on consistency, but this strikes me as an area to make an exception.  

Part of the beauty of the game for me is in taking in and *enjoying* the rich descriptions I run across, in rooms, items, and especially with people.  I can certainly appreciate the frustration of inconsistency, which I generally loathe.  However, having a proscribed list that one can't deviate from would be akin to having other lists for hair-style, body type, hair color, etc.  I've seen these put forth on this forum before, and didn't care for those either, for the same, compelling reason:  they have the potential of limiting creativity, and creativity is the life-blood of Armageddon.

- Bluefae, who still has to finish her Goddess Archetype post...

[Cegar]

Yes urchin or scamp could specifically refer to someone who is actually active... but do you not see people who's features and overall appearence evoke to mind an urchin or scamp? Even when unconcious/sleeping, these terms can apply by simple physical appearence... we are not going for a strict dictionary definition, but rather the connotation of the word.

To me, maiden means that 1) a woman is young, or at least young looking and 2) she looks very chaste and pure, however that "look" may be defined. Now, I have some friends who look very chaste and very pure... however, they are not virgins by any stretch of the imagination. A maiden COULD mean someone who is a virgin, but it most likely means someone who LOOKS like a virgin - someone innocent looking... see what I mean?

[Hymwen]

I think it would help especially new players if every other NPC didn't have a word in their sdesc that PCs aren't allowed to use.

Well, NPCs don't change jobs.  NPCs remain doing what they do, for the rest of their lives.  That's the major different between PCs and NPCs.  That's part of the reason why you can have 'SOLDIER' NPCs, and 'BEGGAR' NPCs.  Because they won't change and they won't get rich.

PCs will.

I'm not talking about titles such as soldier and beggar, but adjectives such as 'stately' which I've seen on several NPCs (and PCs, for that matter) but was rejected when I tried it for one of my recent characters.

What bothers me the most isn't the amount of restriction, but the fact that you can get rejected for using a word that is apparently unacceptable, and the next day you might see some other PC with that same word in their sdesc because it's basically up to the personal opinion of whatever imm is reviewing your character.

[Bebop]

My last character needed one sentance tweaked in her background.  I still would have liked to keep things the way they were, but I wanted to play so I tweaked it and it wasn't long before it was approved.

What's next we're going to only put a few backgrounds to choose from or a few main desc we can choose from.  Or a list of words we are capable of using in those descriptions.  I for one think this is a terrible idea.  So what if an IMM rejects your app, just fix it.  A little difference between waif and woman/man isn't a big deal just roll with it or e-mail the account if you really have a problem with it.  I know it's crackageddon and you don't want to wait that long for your app but still.  Making a list of words we can and can't use seems really constricting.  I for one won't be using it, I will continue to use my creativity and see if I am approved or not.

As far as waif I have seen more then one NPC with this title if I'm not mistaken:

A homeless person, especially a forsaken or orphaned child.
An abandoned young animal.
Something found and unclaimed, as an object cast up by the sea.

I don't think by looking at you someone is going to be able to tell you are homless or cast away by the silt sea.  I can see why this would be acceptable to an NPC who's soul purpose is to stand there and be homeless and dirty, but I don't know about PCs.

However, I do see on the flip side how waif could be interpretable as someone rugged, and disheveled, unkempt that looks cast aside.  And I am all for creative long descs.  If we're going to start monitoring sdecs because everyone might not immediately no the word then we should get rid of sdescs that including Armageddon words like ginka, horta, jihae etc because newbs won't know what those are.  I'm not being serious of couse because I love armageddon based descriptions my point is where do you draw the line?  And I don't think this is it.

Instead of seeing some list that confines what kind of sdescs you can use what I would must rather leave it up to the IMMs or e-mail the account if I really had a problem with it.

Anyway, I hope this list will only be used as a solid reference whenever an imm is in question of whether they should approve a word or not an not some hard set and stone rule list that is going to be checked with militant accuracy.  I think also if an IMM has to go through the list everytime they approve an app they are going to not want to approve apps as much because looking over a huge list can be time consuming. Also I can see problems with the list not being checked militantly and someone still getting rejected for something someone else would approve.  The angry player goes back checks the list and sees that another player got accepted for using the word and then e-mails the imms about the other character.  Blah blah blah.

My point is I don't think this would entirely solve the problem.  Secondly I don't even think this is a big problem and there are two other much simpler ways to solve it.  And secondly I don't like the idea of only being able to pick out of predetermined words set by the players.

There will always be different IMMs checking different apps so it's never going to be a constant factor anyway.

[mansa]

...Instead of seeing some list that confines what kind of sdescs you can use what I would must rather leave it up to the IMMs or e-mail the account if I really had a problem with it.

Anyway, I hope this list will only be used as a solid reference whenever an imm is in question of whether they should approve a word or not an not some hard set and stone rule list that is going to be checked with militant accuracy.  I think also if an IMM has to go through the list everytime they approve an app they are going to not want to approve apps as much because looking over a huge list can be time consuming. Also I can see problems with the list not being checked militantly and someone still getting rejected for something someone else would approve.  The angry player goes back checks the list and sees that another player got accepted for using the word and then e-mails the imms about the other character.  Blah blah blah.

My point is I don't think this would entirely solve the problem.  Secondly I don't even think this is a big problem and there are two other much simpler ways to solve it.  And secondly I don't like the idea of only being able to pick out of predetermined words set by the players.

There will always be different IMMs checking different apps so it's never going to be a constant factor anyway.

What if this list isn't published for the players to see, (of course, after we discuss the pros and cons of each word on the GDB), and only kept on the immortal side, as a guideline?  I think that may solve some of your worried questions.

[Lizzie]

A waif is what you said, but waifish is a good word to use instead.

"A waifish green-skinned lass is here."

Waifish does exactly what you'd want it to do. It tells the player that the character looks like it was cast from the sea, unwanted, abandoned. It doesn't tell the player that the character 'is' cast from the sea, unwanted, or abandoned. That brings to my mind a young girl (with the lass) who is unkempt, dishevelled, dirty, with raggedy clothes and who smells bad. Someone who has no one to care for her and therefore has no understanding of caring about herself. All that with a single word, that isn't a questionable noun, but instead is an adjective describing what someone looks like instead of who she is.

Whorish can work instead of whore in the same way I think. A few others have adjectives that can replace them, to describe what someone looks like rather than what they actually are.  I found waifish in the dictionary under "waif, see also." Maybe other people can find lots of other alternatives to "inappropriate" words.

L. Stanson

[Medena]

I don't really have objections to any of the words being suggested here and wouldn't be too concerned over seeing them in the game. However, since some of the words clearly are contentious, as is evidenced by this discussion, I'd suggest that the final list be nothing more than uncontentious, neutral descriptors of race, gender and/or age.

The problem with most of the controversial words is not with their literal meaning but rather with what they connote - often leading to conclusions about status, condition, character or even how we ought to feel toward the person.  Harridan does not simply mean an old, mean woman; it suggests someone who scolds, is vicious and mean-spirited and so suggests what one ought to feel toward her before ever having interacted with the person.  We don't allow adjectives like "grumpy" or "nasty" or "shrill-voiced" so why should a noun which implies all that be any more permissible?  Waif does not simply mean a young, homeless orphan (and really, should denoting a living condition be acceptable?) but it also tells me ahead of time how my character is going to feel about this character.

So, yeah, let's stick to more neutral nouns and save the fancy stuff for the adjectives.

[Gaare]

Acceptable:
teen
teenager
boy
girl
youth
adolescent
urchin
lass
lad
breed
halfbreed
mutant/freak -> special cases

Unacceptable:
lady
maiden
maid
kid
hag
stumpy
titan
brat
child
ragamuffin

I think Larrath's list is pretty good.

About maiden: I do not like it in sdecs, not because I have some good reason.. it simply sounds to me like.. suits better in a medivial fantasy RPI or that kind.

[ale six]

When 90% of all characters in the game use racial nouns or just "man/woman" anyway, I really don't see the big deal here. But FWIW I don't think words that describe anything more than physical attributes belong in sdescs, which is why I don't like to see words like maiden, urchin, waif, hag, etc. They all have subjective connotations.

NPCs are different because they serve a role as scenery. An npc written as a waif will always be a waif, while a PC written as a waif may not always act or appear waifish.

[jstorrie]

DICKENS-WHELP

[path]

Personally, I think hag and maiden, off Larrath's list, are fine. They have stronger connontations which you get to deal with in game, and that can be really fun.

As far as the definition of maiden, I've heard it contended that since maiden means unmarried, in the world of Zalanthas, it equates naturally with commoners. Do you think it should be possible to tell if someone's from the nobility on first glance? I do.

As for hag:
1   An old woman considered ugly or frightful.

That's a fantastic descriptive, because it sums up so many different aspects all at once.

Waif, in my opinion, should be fine if the background and the description warrent it.

I don't want to lose any of the color of our game. I'm delighted when I see some of the over-the-top short descriptions. People are trying to conjure up a first impression and a briefly stated overview. It's not easy. It's a pleasure to see it finely done. It's a pleasure to see people trying.

I'm worried about seeing us further limited. The original posts on Ask the Staff which originated (as far as I know) this discussion, pertained more to a feeling of supression than one of what's inappropriate.  I'd much rather scowl at the occasionally absurd than limit the creativity of the majority.

I wish this discussion had sparked a desire to permit more literary freedom instead of the reverse.

[marko]

Speaking of hag... what about crone?

[moontug]

I support the expressive freedom of the players.

big time

[path]

Crone is awesome. Crone is superfly.

[mansa]

...
I don't want to lose any of the color of our game. I'm delighted when I see some of the over-the-top short descriptions. People are trying to conjure up a first impression and a briefly stated overview. It's not easy. It's a pleasure to see it finely done. It's a pleasure to see people trying.

I'm worried about seeing us further limited. The original posts on Ask the Staff which originated (as far as I know) this discussion, pertained more to a feeling of supression than one of what's inappropriate.  I'd much rather scowl at the occasionally absurd than limit the creativity of the majority.

I wish this discussion had sparked a desire to permit more literary freedom instead of the reverse.

There is a conflict of intrest on the immortal side of things, as to which is best nouns to use and not use.  I'm extremely thankful that they've come to us to ask us what is acceptable and what is not, rather than just voting on the words and then saying, 'this is how it is from now on'.

I think this list will be awesome.  You won't have people who apply for 'kid' and get rejected, and then see someone with 'kid' in game.  That makes players angry.  It also makes a conflict on the immortal side between the people who do the applications.

[rishenko]

The problem I have with restricting breed is that half-giants and half-elves lose a decent number of characters trying to cover their race in their sdesc.  I have a helluva time trying to come up with a good sdesc with the 36 character limit as it is - putting those in the sdesc just exacerbates the problem.

It would be nice if we had some racial names, actual names, for each of them.  Like "corval" for half-elves, and "gorags" for half-giant, or something far more eloquent than those. Heh.

However, if the imms were to show us some more love and bump the character limit on sdescs up to, say, 45 or 50... that would be wonderful too.

[Briarfox]

I really never cared much for teen/teenager in an sdesc. It just didn't quite seem to fit.

I have seen a few sdesc that were pretty much subjective with words such as radiant, vivacious, comely, regal, and a string of others that are mildly forcing. You read the mdesc and they are just hot, hot, hot from head to toe with words that push it. So when you play someone who shouldn't drool and yet here you go with being told her breasts or his package is unrivaled in eye-catching yumminess, what are your options?

I like the term 'breed' very much so because 'breed' isn't -that- slang in-game. You are a half-elf, right? You are a half-breed of some manner between elf/human/other half-breeds so you -are- a breed. I think it really fits in an sdesc, honestly.

I do like 'crone' and 'spinster' to an iffy level because both are generally -really- old women and I just don't see a large percentage of women making it that far because the world is harsh and life expectancy isn't all that high. I still like them though and smile when I get a chance to see them.

I like 'waif' and I think it fits in the MUD but I think the mdesc should very much support it. I see a 'waif' being diminutive and skinny, dirty with those distant, dull eyes of having seen a horrible existence. 'Waifish' is also a fitting term but 'whorish' is -really- not acceptable because your idea of a whore in look might not be Amos' idea of what a whore looks like. Besides, honestly, can anyone describe a PC whore in Zalanthas solely on their appearance? If you can it's probably your perception as a player, not as a character. So 'whorish' is way too subjective.

[Aldiel]

Unacceptable:
lady
maiden
maid
kid
hag
stumpy
titan
brat
child
ragamuffin

Ok, I'm not sure I understand why some of these are unacceptable.   Could you explain further, Larrath.  I could see Maid and Brat as being unacceptable, but what's wrong with Kid and Child?

[Zacharai]

Waif, in my opinion, should be fine if the background and the description warrent [sic] it.

I think a lot of people feel the same way.  I couldn't disagree more.

There is one huge thing implied in the word 'waif' that you can't tell by looking at someone -- that they are homeless.  The other definitions of 'waif' aren't worthwhile -- this isn't an object cast up from the sea (the silt sea?), and it's not an animal.  Therefore, it's a homeless person.  Whether or not a person has a home or shelter is something that should be discovered ICly.

If I step outside and I see two dirty children, what makes one a 'waif' and the other one not?  They could look the exact same, but one actually has a large and loving family and a palatial estate on the other side of the city.  She's just out playing in the mud.  By definition, she's not a waif.

If I can't look at you and see something about you (while you don't move a muscle), it shouldn't be in your description.  I like bright-line rules like that.

I recognize there needs to be flexibility here -- precise definitions are sometimes sacrificed for playability's sake.  Is this one of those times?

[Nao]

Waif, in my opinion, should be fine if the background and the description warrent [sic] it.

I think a lot of people feel the same way.  I couldn't disagree more.

There is one huge thing implied in the word 'waif' that you can't tell by looking at someone -- that they are homeless.  The other definitions of 'waif' aren't worthwhile -- this isn't an object cast up from the sea (the silt sea?), and it's not an animal.  Therefore, it's a homeless person.  Whether or not a person has a home or shelter is something that should be discovered ICly.

If I step outside and I see two dirty children, what makes one a 'waif' and the other one not?  They could look the exact same, but one actually has a large and loving family and a palatial estate on the other side of the city.  She's just out playing in the mud.  By definition, she's not a waif.

If I can't look at you and see something about you (while you don't move a muscle), it shouldn't be in your description.  I like bright-line rules like that.

I recognize there needs to be flexibility here -- precise definitions are sometimes sacrificed for playability's sake.  Is this one of those times?

Definitely depends on the dictionary you use, and dictionary.com doesn'T seem to list everything.
My dictionary simply says a waif is a bedraggled child...

[Zacharai]

Definitely depends on the dictionary you use, and dictionary.com doesn'T seem to list everything.
My dictionary simply says a waif is a bedraggled child...

The definitions I used were common among the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary (no date cited), American Heritage Dictionary (2000), and WordNet from Princeton (2003).  A Google for 'waif definition' seems pretty comprehensive.

[Sanvean]

The purpose of this exercise is to solve the problem of some words being allowed by some staff but not by others, meaning that the player faces the luck of the draw when getting approved, as well as frustrating people who have seen a word used in another PC's description but been turned down for it.

I will put the link to the definitive list on a webpage when I have a more complete version.

The aim is not to destroy creativity - people are welcome to keep trying to find new and interesting sdescs.

I want to restrict this to nouns, and leave adjectives for some other, more ambitious time.  I will note that people presenting sdescs like "the average human", "the nondescript elf" or "the average male" - this HAS been tried before and we don't accept it.  Try using common sdesc words if you really want to be nondescript, like "the tall, dark man".

Yes, some of the words on the unapproved list are used for NPCs and will cotninue to be used for NPCs for reasons explained elsewhere.

Generally the reasons I have been putting words on the unapproved list are: too slangy (breed, dude, kid, lady, stumpy), too reminscent of a non-Zalanthan concept (spinster, maid), too young (child, boy, girl), too incomprensible (dickens-whelp), too misleading (abomination, giant, titan), too job-related (warrior et al)