Crime Code and Theft

[Larrath]

I'm sure everyone here has encountered at least one thief that would steal joyfully from your PC and just beg you to hit him so the NPC bodyguards come in and kick your ass.

Let's change this: a character that steals from another character, regardless of success, will become fair game for 1 IC hour as far as the crime code goes.  This means that if a pickpocket steals from my character and I draw a dagger and try to kill him, I won't get hit by the crime code unless the pickpocket is clanned Militia/Templarate or has a very high rank in another clan of good standing.  This also means a friend of mine could up and attack or subdue the pickpocket.

This will help encourage thieves to run the hell away after botching a theft attempt, removing the completely unreasonable crime-code protection they benefit from, and force them to be careful and reasonable with how much (and how subtly) they steal if they want to stay alive.

Edited to add: perhaps it could be done in such a way that the pickpocket could only be attacked with unarmed combat, so they could be knocked out safely but not murdered.
Since most theft in the later stages won't echo, this won't always put the thief in risk - if someone makes an OOC guess in order to attack a thief, they could easily get nailed by the crime code if they were wrong.  And if they weren't, perhaps the thief wasn't careful enough.

Discuss.

[spawnloser]

I love the idea, but have no idea how it would be implemented.

[Yang]

I'm under the impression that thieves aren't benefitting much from anything lately. Let's take it easy and see how the new changes really pan out before adding something that allows dumbass, powerless citizens to take the Law into their own hands and away from the state.

Or, why don't you attack them, and risk losing your weapons and some jail time. Take some initiative cowboy!

[mansa]

I can forsee lots of fighting in the taverns.

[spawnloser]

I can forsee lots of fighting in the taverns.

Perfect!

[Maybe42or54]

Well, it sounds good, but.. it limits the pock-pocket guild severely.

The soldiers would have to take your word for it that they did infact steal something from you, the attacker. Doesn't sound realistic.

[Morgenes]

The problem is this would assume that you know exactly who the thief is.  If the code made them susceptible to the crime code as you describe, you could use this to verify who the thief was in a completely OOC way.  Not to mention they could have stole something from someone else entirely, but still be susceptible.

I would much prefer this be handled IC by interacting with a templar or militia member if you have suspicions that someone stole from you.  I don't think any of the city states prefer it's citizens to take the law into their own hands regardless.  The watch code was put in place to allow you victims some ability to impact a pickpockets chance of succes without becoming vigilantes.

[mansa]

I can forsee lots of fighting in the taverns.

Perfect!

Is that what we want to promote?

Right now, you can steal keys off a noble, and dangle them in front of his face, and until -he- attacks you, you are a law abiding citizen.

If the noble's guards attack you, they are at fault.  (or so the story goes)

If the noble himself attacks you, then, you're in big trouble.  But that requires the noble to actually lower himself to trying to touch and/or fight and/or kill you himself.

Does the game need more fights with weapons in the taverns?  What about brawling?

[Larrath]

Well, it sounds good, but.. it limits the pock-pocket guild severely.

I don't look at it that way.  As I see it, once the thief botches the steal (either by code or by being noticed as a thief) he'll have to pack up and lay low for an hour until people start forgetting the whole thing.

The soldiers would have to take your word for it that they did infact steal something from you, the attacker. Doesn't sound realistic.

Crime code only really works in places where there are other people that could call the Militia.  If the pickpocket badly botches the steal attempt on you, or is accused as a thief, those people would also hear and see it and there's no reason why the soldier couldn't be told that.

[Larrath]

The problem is this would assume that you know exactly who the thief is.  If the code made them susceptible to the crime code as you describe, you could use this to verify who the thief was in a completely OOC way.  Not to mention they could have stole something from someone else entirely, but still be susceptible.

Making a bad guess on this verification would leave the attacker in jail with charges of attempted murder in a public tavern.
Edited to add: It's a little shady on an OOC/IC level, I admit, but this is the only way I can think of to effectively protect one's belongings from a twinking thief.

I would much prefer this be handled IC by interacting with a templar or militia member if you have suspicions that someone stole from you.  I don't think any of the city states prefer it's citizens to take the law into their own hands regardless.  The watch code was put in place to allow you victims some ability to impact a pickpockets chance of succes without becoming vigilantes.

Sometimes that cannot be done, especially with the cases of code-abusing twinks.  And while those twinks can be handled with an email, my understanding of the general game policy is that unless the case is extreme, the damage caused by the twinks will not be undone by staff.

And about the city-states and its citizens taking the law into their hands - citizens are still allowed to defend themselves if someone tries to gut them with a knife.  If someone is basically standing one foot away and keeps snatching their belongings, I don't see why the city-state should mind if the citizen responded with unarmed combat or even deadly force.

[Maybe42or54]

Uh.. I see a problem with that. If a guy is standing behind you and you know he is stealing from you. Why be there continually? Templars might have placed that pick-pocket there so they can kill you later on.


Personally, I think there should be chances for the common populace to not tell on you if you are a member of a noble house, or so. Since they don't want to attract attention, most of the time.

[Morgenes]

I would much prefer this be handled IC by interacting with a templar or militia member if you have suspicions that someone stole from you.  I don't think any of the city states prefer it's citizens to take the law into their own hands regardless.  The watch code was put in place to allow you victims some ability to impact a pickpockets chance of succes without becoming vigilantes.

Sometimes that cannot be done, especially with the cases of code-abusing twinks.  And while those twinks can be handled with an email, my understanding of the general game policy is that unless the case is extreme, the damage caused by the twinks will not be undone by staff.

And about the city-states and its citizens taking the law into their hands - citizens are still allowed to defend themselves if someone tries to gut them with a knife.  If someone is basically standing one foot away and keeps snatching their belongings, I don't see why the city-state should mind if the citizen responded with unarmed combat or even deadly force.

Use the watch command.  If they still manage to steal from you while being watched, get out of there, he's a master thief.

Edit: Or isn't the one stealing from you.

[Larrath]

Use the watch command.  If they still manage to steal from you while being watched, get out of there, he's a master thief.

Edit: Or isn't the one stealing from you.

Or he's a master twink.  Or there is a pair of thieves and they switch off who is doing the stealing as you juggle your Watch between them.

And as for getting out of there, the pickpocket could just Shadow my character and use Hide to keep stealing.

I would like to see an increase in what ordinary citizens can do against thieves.  This increase would maintain the game balance if thieves were given more abilities and a greater range in what they are capable of stealing, combating the problem described by the derailment in The Jester's thread.

[Naiona]

If someone is using their knowledge of the code to protect them in a circumstance where they should be getting their rump kicked - wish up or email the mud.  Like any other skill, pickpocketing is subject to realistic roleplay and we do pay attention when it is not used that way.

[marko]

And about the city-states and its citizens taking the law into their hands - citizens are still allowed to defend themselves if someone tries to gut them with a knife.  If someone is basically standing one foot away and keeps snatching their belongings, I don't see why the city-state should mind if the citizen responded with unarmed combat or even deadly force.

Allanak would toss anyone who attacked anyone publically in jail and maybe even execute them.

Tuluk would toss anyone who attacked anyone publically in jail and maybe even execute them.

In both cities it is illegal to fight publically.  It is illegal to attack someone.  It is illegal to cause disruption in the form of violence.  This is part of why I dislike the brawl code but that's a personal opinion.

Since this is the case the code already handles this matter effectively.  Your character attacks a pickpocket and goes to jail.  The pickpocket would go to jail as well (assuming they did critically fail).

[jstorrie]

On a side note it would be nice to see certain classes of people get away with certain crimes. If a noble's guard attacks an unclanned commoner, wouldn't the militia look the other way?

[Ghost]

On a side note it would be nice to see certain classes of people get away with certain crimes. If a noble's guard attacks an unclanned commoner, wouldn't the militia look the other way?

I always thought of it like that.  PC soldiers do it.  I would like NPC soldiers would do it as well.  That way, being a noble guard would be really badass and elite job, and only people who tries their best to stick to the etiquette of being a Noble guard would actually get it.  Now, to me, it looks like some PCs don't even want to join noble houses because it is just another clan.

[grog]

On a side note it would be nice to see certain classes of people get away with certain crimes. If a noble's guard attacks an unclanned commoner, wouldn't the militia look the other way?

I always thought of it like that.  PC soldiers do it.  I would like NPC soldiers would do it as well.  That way, being a noble guard would be really badass and elite job, and only people who tries their best to stick to the etiquette of being a Noble guard would actually get it.  Now, to me, it looks like some PCs don't even want to join noble houses because it is just another clan.

I hope I'm not giving away anything, but I think this is already in the game.   At least I got away with more shit while I was working for a noble house a year or two back.  Then again I could have just been lucky.

[jmordetsky]

I feel your pain on the problem, but don't think this is the solution.

My thoughts are, Watch really handles this.

However, as a possible code update, what I would really like to see is a penalty to stealing from the same person unless a set amount of time has expired.

If you steal my dagger, you should then cut tail and leave. You shouldn't then swipe a pouch from my backpack, another knife from my belt and coins from my cloak.

I'm actually guilty of having done that once. (sigh bad joe) Prior to watch. I think Watch is a good deterent but the multiple stealing penalty would help stop what Larrath is talking about to some extent.

As for someone stealing and showing you what they stole and you not being able to do anything about it, you should contact a PC law enforcer or wish up.

[Folker]

This is actually a real curious issue. Say you're a pickpocket, and as most pickpockets you are an absolutely talentless sob that was caught for stealing more then you actually stole. And then, Thank Highlord, you finally meet a fool. Someone who is really really really careless, and you find yourself confident that you can finally strip the man of all of his valuables. Would you really stop at a single dagger, knowing that once that golden fool leaves, you might never find that profitable a mark for months and months, even if you'll have the water to survive those months.

[Intrepid]

The problem with this code is that quite a few people cry "TWINK!" just
because a successful pickpocket strolled through and acquired some sid.
This code heavily favors a biased opinion that the pickpocket should
somehow not get away with their earnings.

What about the person being stolen from starting a brawl with everyone in
the tavern until he finds out which one stole from him?  All of this is
hanging precariously on an opinion from a pilfered pc.  It's not something
that would warrant a coded change.