Magick in game.

[LoD]

Ghost, as much as I love you, man, you are wrong on this.

Hrmm, that's a good arguement -- I think I'll use it.  Moab, you're wrong.

Doesn't that sound silly?  I agree that Ghost's statement that sorcerers "...do not have a problem with anything at all" is a bit of an exaggeration, but compared to the trials and tribulations of the average guild, they really don't.  With enough water and time, sorcerers can go into hiding and emerge a powerful and terrible force without having interacted with a single person.

The problem, as you suggest, emerges when a powerful entity suddenly emerges into the world (or at least, the emergence appears sudden because of the long, quiet gestation period) and wanders around wreaking havoc on mundane players and organizations without any purpose or focus. And yes, it does sometimes happen. And yes, I think it's a problem worth discussing.

No politics, no forced interaction, no built in system of checks and balances.  The sorcerer is one of the only powerful roles (i.e. noble, militia, templars) that does not have limitations built into the environment.  Templars, nobles and militia all have superiors, both PC and NPC, that will hold them accountable for their actions.  Now, perhaps some sorcerers are approached by beings that threaten them with the same, but it's not something that's inherently part of their world.

If there are no people that will accept the average sorcerer for who they are, and they will only ever be hunted down and killed as soon as they are known, then what possibilities stand before many of the players to assume the mantle of a sorc other than wanton death and destruction until some force greater than themselves, or often their own mistakes, is able to take them down? It seems a mistake to give a class, made shallow and limited in their inability to interact with the world by the documentation, the highest potential for power.

My overall feeling on this, though, as I mentioned before, is that at the point where a sorcerer crosses that imaginary line from annoyingly powerful to a force to be reckoned with, their goals also should shift. There should be more for them to do in the game than prey on the mundane PCs of other players. For the most part, a creatue so powerful as that simply shouldn't have any interest in the day-to-day life of even Zalanthas' greatest warrior.

As Xygax mentions, once a sorcerer reaches a certain level of power then the trivial lives of men shouldn't represent much of a concern to them or their master plans.  I would guess that one of the issues is a lack of development for that upper echelon of power.  There are only so many PC powers at that level, so who else do you HAVE to interact with once you reach the level of power where you have little to fear from the everyday person walking around?  Templars always have something going on that merits their attentions, and while they can be extremely powerful, they are still required to keep a visible presence which lets the world interact with them.

Consider if templars were allowed to simply roam wherever they wished, invisible and protected my magicks, destroying people in the tablelands, grasslands or other remote areas because they could.  Would be object?  Would the Imms object?  Probably.   And why?  Because those powerful roles are monitored and given strict guidelines as to what they should and shouldn't be doing.  It'd be nice to see all powerful guilds given this same system of checks and balances.

-LoD

[Halaster]

Ok, LoD, I'm confused.  Where did Xygax post that stuff?  Is there another thread I'm missing?  You're quoting him, but I didn't remember him posting in this thread, so .. where'd he say that stuff?  I'd like to read his post in its entirety.

Please help a lost and confused Shroud of Death.

[Larrath]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=146515#146515

[moab]

[Hrmm, that's a good arguement -- I think I'll use it.  Moab, you're wrong.

Well, to be fair, I used this argument because currently I know Ghost is wrong and don't really want to post anything more about it.  I know from first hand experience every time I log in.

Is that better?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

To be fair, are you or whoever is playing that sort of character playing realistically? Not only in not twinking the code, but also in taking the world into account?

If so, then you get your point, but consider the question carefully. I could play a hunter and never go hungry, be overflowing in silks and elite swords and such and do it within the realms of the code and truthfully without twinking at all, but it might not be realistic. Is that powerful character who never has to worry about anything following the same precepts of realism?

[moab]

I think that's a good point, 7DV.

Playing realistically as you can is important - and doing so generally means that whomever you are, you're not going to hole up in some dusty hole building your "forever DOOM" power.  

You gotta interact at some point.

The interaction is where it's at anyway.

As for Sorcs "not having anything to worry about" they got tons.  I mean think of it - every person who might even catch a wiff of them may well be looking to make themselves famous.  Additionally unless someone recently added "Summon Obsidian" and "Summon Whatever Object You Like" to the Sorc spell list, they will have needs that can't be met without working with someone.

And the interplay there is what makes them just like every other character.  All of the guilds - all of them - put their pants on one leg at a time.

[Agent_137]

and after that, the sorcs make gold records?

[Halaster]

You gotta interact at some point.

While I agree you need/should to interact, "realistically" you don't absolutely have to.  You have to eat, you have to drink.  You don't have to be social.  While uncommon, people can and do isolate themselves in RL and don't interact with others.

Understand, we don't encourage this in the game - we encourage people to mix it up and interact with other players.  I'm just pointing out that it's not unrealistic to be a hermit/loner under certain situations.

[LoD]

While I agree you need/should to interact, "realistically" you don't absolutely have to.  You have to eat, you have to drink.  You don't have to be social.  While uncommon, people can and do isolate themselves in RL and don't interact with others.

This is definitely one of my issues with the sorc class; how easy it is to play a hermit until such a time that one feels powerful enough to survive "interactions" with other people.  Only magick classes have the ability to access powers capable of killing other players with 0 potential interaction.  They can enter a room a fragile creature and emerge a proficient killer without risking anything other than being stumbled upon by someone.

Assassins aren't allowed to sit in a room with a sparring dummy and increase their backstab.  Warriors cannot increase their disarm and weapon proficiences against their shadow.  Rangers cannot shoot archery targets and expect significant skill improvement.  Pick pockets cannot steal from themselves and master the art.  In fact, all of these things would be considered bad form and poor play.

Yet sorcerers are capable of assuming most of their powers in just such a manner, and I consider it a flaw that discourages interaction and realistic play.  If they at least had to seek out a mentor to learn new spells it would force some degree of interaction at earlier stages of their development.  There should be more risk associated with their reward.

-LoD

[moab]

It's an interesting point, LoD.  I think this is probably pretty well-controlled by the staff.

First - I'm betting that few Sorcs make it to any level of real power.

Of those that do, I suspect they are monitored pretty closely by the staff.

Players allowed into trusted roles - be it magick or otherwise are closely monitored by the staff, so these characters are on a pretty short leash, really.

[RunningMountain]

While I agree you need/should to interact, "realistically" you don't absolutely have to.  You have to eat, you have to drink.  You don't have to be social.  While uncommon, people can and do isolate themselves in RL and don't interact with others.

What about gemmed magickers who spam cast in a temple to max then go out into the world to wreak havok? I think that's just as worse, and happens a lot too.

[Annoyed]

While I agree you need/should to interact, "realistically" you don't absolutely have to.  You have to eat, you have to drink.  You don't have to be social.  While uncommon, people can and do isolate themselves in RL and don't interact with others.

What about gemmed magickers who spam cast in a temple to max then go out into the world to wreak havok? I think that's just as worse, and happens a lot too.

So you have watched all gemmed in their temples to critique their play?  And you can judge that just because a gemmed character you see out on the wastes is powerful that means they've twinked their PCs?  How do you not know that character doesnt have 10-20 days and that's why they might be more powerful than a 5 day ranger or other mid-powered PC?

Don't assume you immediately know the history of every PC you encounter.  I trust that imms would monitor for that type of behavior and attempt to stop it, why don't you put some faith in staff as well?  And if you do clearly see this sort of behavior than email the mud, but if you just suspect it then you're probably dead wrong.

[Jherlen]

I wonder if everyone posting in this thread could say whether or not they have experience playing sorcerors and gemmed magickers. I don't, that's why I'm staying out of it. But I'd like to know who is posting from actual experience and who is posting from speculation.

[Larrath]

I've played a few magickers, both gemmed and not gemmed, and interacted at some length with a couple of Sorcerer characters.

I completely disagree with RunningMountain that gemmed magickers are unbalanced in a manner similar to sorcerers, but I don't want to elaborate on that.  Suffice to say that no one elementalist can do everything, and therein lies the balance.
Besides, it's all about who plays smarter and who's better prepared for the battle anyway.

[amoeba]

I have played a few magickers as well and interacted with higher level magickers including sorcerers.

Also I have been PK'ed three times, all by magickers.  All of them were perfectly IC and for the most part well done.  With all of the PK's I could have avoided them had I been smarter about my play.  I have never had a magicker do anything unreasonable to me and the sorcs I encountered behaved quite reasonably considering their power.  Each encounter was some of the most enjoyment and frustration I have gleaned from the game.

Allanaki gate guards, that's another story.

[RunningMountain]

While I agree you need/should to interact, "realistically" you don't absolutely have to.  You have to eat, you have to drink.  You don't have to be social.  While uncommon, people can and do isolate themselves in RL and don't interact with others.

What about gemmed magickers who spam cast in a temple to max then go out into the world to wreak havok? I think that's just as worse, and happens a lot too.

So you have watched all gemmed in their temples to critique their play?  And you can judge that just because a gemmed character you see out on the wastes is powerful that means they've twinked their PCs?  How do you not know that character doesnt have 10-20 days and that's why they might be more powerful than a 5 day ranger or other mid-powered PC?

Don't assume you immediately know the history of every PC you encounter.  I trust that imms would monitor for that type of behavior and attempt to stop it, why don't you put some faith in staff as well?  And if you do clearly see this sort of behavior than email the mud, but if you just suspect it then you're probably dead wrong.

Heh. The fact that I've talked to people who do it, prove that it happens. So I already know people do it.

[Dakurus]

As a note about magickers practicing, based on what I've seen it tends to be more of a solitary practice then one of interaction. That isn't to say that magickers don't cast together, RP learning from each other, and so on, because I'd say most interact at some point with others in just that way. However the majority of the time spent practicing, is a solitary art.

This isn't a large surprise based on how we've set up the gameworld to treat magickers. They are ostrasized by most of the PC population, which prevents them from hanging out with you practicing their spells. Magick itself isn't welcomed with open arms in most cases. Additionally, the act of using magicks isn't very conducive to learning it, even if you're accepted.

No templar wants to take that gemmed krathi out who is still only mediocre at flamestrike. Who wants to see, cast, fail, cast, fail, cast, little damage. Or that whiran that starts wandering with his invisibility at low levels. Uh oh, here comes a aggro baddie, fail, fail, fail, dead. So, unlike a runner in the byn, who learn together as a unit and can suck individually, but still have a great time doing missions, magickers are pretty much SOL.

I'd love to see this change, to make magickers more useful as they progress along their slow path to power, so that everyone else has an opportunity to share in their "experience" of growing. So that they can fail, and not die, have events that change their focus, and what not. I don't have any solutions to this currently, solutions that provide this opportunity but don't force it.

Until then, we'll likely see what we have today.

[Jakahri]

I like Dak's post.

I've played gemmed mages in the past and mildly enjoyed them. However, I once played a half-elf gemmed. That...was a big mistake. Unless you enjoy solo rp with a mage, I suggest not doing it. I was pretty much forced to sit within my temple and cast, cast, cast, and cast some more until a templar was ready to use me.

Very boring and stale. I'd admit to some degree that RM is right: some mages do spamcast all day. Perhaps in the future this can be remedied. I, for one, hope so.

[Gaare]

During first half-year of my gameplay, I thought there is really little magick in-game and I really really enjoyed it. Then, after a while of experience and learning where to look, I saw there are magickers here and there.

Now, I think magick density in game is good, though I still would like to see less magickers in game.

"For me"

Less supernatural = More fun.

(i.e. you can either send a whiran to spot a estate, or you may send a party composed of a ranger, warrior, a couple of sneakers)

                               ----------------------

About sorcerers.. With that power, I think they are watched by IMMs even more then some special roles like nobles, templars.

[Maybe42or54]

I think magick is too easily learned. By making it more useful, you make it more in the scenes. As I have seen, and heard it, by the time they get to 10 days of playing time, they can wipe out five people by casting spells that affect the whole group. Sure, that is interaction, but it isn't good when they can do that everytime they try.

As a warrior, it takes maybe 20 days of playing time before you can killed three moderately skilled mundane attackers.
As a magicker, I have seen a magicker at 5 or so days do practically the same damn thing.

Also, magickers just seem to branch a whole helluvalot more. I see new skills added a whole lot more for magickers than mundane characters. That has a natural habit of unbalancing the classes.

What may make it easier for magickers, is that they are outcasted. So they cast in the morning, hang out in a bar in the evenning, cast in the morning, hang out in the bar in the evenning. So they get damn good, real damn quick. And they don't slow down.

Mundane characters don't have the same amount of skills to practice, but they still practice the same amount of time. There are no nul powers for sap, backstab, slashing. Not to mention those are blacklisted as practicable skills. However, skills that can be cast 1-3 times can kill Pcs, and those are Ok to practice.

I have also heard of older magickers practicing various skills all day long IC. That isn't bad? Sounds bad.

This is all my point of view, though.

[Maybe42or54]

And tell me if I am wrong and this is balanced.
Now, take a magicker and a mundane character that have both played for 5 days. Make them practice the same amount of time. Morning until midday. After the first five days is up. Who is more powerful? The magicker, everytime.

Now, continue this on. That magicker takes a break and leaves for five days, the fighter continues to train and train and train for five days PT.

The magicker comes back, practices for five more days PT, the fighter practices for five days PT.
Who is more powerful? The magicker, everytime.


That doesn't sound balanced.

[Delirium]

Armageddon is not meant to be a 'balanced' game.

[Maybe42or54]

Then why have set guilds and subguilds?

There should be some balance to it.

[Jakahri]

The game is not supposed to be balanced in terms of magick friend. Overall, the game balances out in other ways.

Warriors can simply subdue/bash/sap a magicker and negate their potential. It all balances out in some form or fashion.

Your argument that magick unbalances the game, though, is not applicable to this discussion. Magick is supposed to be powerful. It's supposed to be scary. It's supposed to allow the player more potential than a meager warrior.

[Maybe42or54]

Doesn't make it very fun either. When a 10 day old magicker can come along and wipe the floor with your 15-20 day old born fighter either.

Editted to add, the last skill mundane characters got was in 2002. Still, magickers can get that one also.

Besides that, the last skill a main, mundane guild got was... Oh wait. I couldn't find one. Someone help me out?