My Opinion of Tuluk

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yeah, I agree about the gender equality thing in that it is pushed too hard, I think, overall. It's pushed so hard at times by both the staff and many players that those players that want to make dainty damsels are literally discouraged too, and I can't say I like that. I play manly men, and I like dainty damsels. I also like the females (or males) that play the gritty women, too.

I also agree about the thief or assassin being celebrated. I don't like the idea that a thief or assassin could ever become a celebrated figure, whether he publicly acknowledges that he is or not. What I do think is that the skill itself with which the crime was commited should be the celebrated thing. I do understand the registering for these professions. It amounts to a pre-bribe, basically. I mean, you can still get in trouble, but you'll face less stiff penalties.

I could see the following conversation.

"Did you hear that Amos got robbed again last night?"
"Fuck, again? I thought he hired a couple of security persons for his House."
"He did! Two bigass fellows, he did. The thief musta climbed in a back window. He made off with Amos' most valuable vase."
"Wow, that took some talent. He's good, isn't he, to evade our Faithful so long? I hope -I- don't get robbed. I may have to take my gold dagger of +10 dragon slaying down to Nenyuk this afternoon. I can't have -that- missing."
"I'll drink to that."


To me, that would be celebration enough. I just can't see them having the same conversation and adding in that they wish they were him and the honor of being robbed by such a master and such.

[Nao]

Anyone ever read some Dicworld novels, the part where they talk about the Assassin guild in Ank-Morpork and the thieves that rob people but can only make a certain amoun of money per year and don'T rob anyone twice withtin a period of time?

That one isn't serious enough for arm, but he also gives sme reasons on why the system works and how it works - the Tuluki attitude towards thieves and assassins ould be somewhat like that, respected professins as long as you don't get caught..

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Let me do my standard thing.... just countering some of the many arguments I've heard.
If you don't like it, don't play there. Gladly. But as much as I love to close my eyes, hum, and pretend half of the game-world doesn't exist, it tends to cause some problems for me ICly. Like, for example, when my soldier character is stationed there for several IC years.
Tuluk needs to be different than Allanak. I'm aware of that. My post was not saying "make Tuluk exactly like Allanak". I was simply stating that I didn't like some of the changes made to Tuluk. Also, as one poster said, I think Allanak needs to be better defined than "Allanak is not Tuluk".
Tuluk's differences give players a chance to play in an environment different from Allanak. Choices are a good thing. Understandable, but I still think that some of Tuluk's differences are unrealistic, or un-Zalanthan, or were simply not based in IC occurrences. Just because a place is different, and offers a new setting, does not mean that it's a good addition to the gameworld. I hope you'll forgive me if I construct a little straw man to prove my point.
Let's say tomorrow that the Imms announce that a new city-state is appearing. It's called New York. It's similar to Tuluk and Allanak- it has crime, racial tension, politicking, backstabbing, a brutal police force... but they also made sure it was very different from any of the other starting locations. They decided to make New York incredibly technologically advanced, so now characters can run around with guns and drive SUVs. New York is different from the rest of the gameworld, and it offers a new, unique, and interesting setting, so it is therefore a good addition to the gameworld.
Now, replace "New York" with "Tuluk", "technologically advanced" with "culturally advanced", and "run around with guns and drive SUVs" with "be a super-rock-star bard and chill in the tavern with your betters". Hopefully, this facetious little scenario might explain my issues with Tuluk a little bit better.
Basically, just because a place is "different" and offers more options to players does not mean the place is a good addition, or even a justified one.
Tuluk is harsh, too. If you'll look at my original post carefully, you'll see that I never claimed that Tuluk was "not harsh". All I said was that the natural environment was slightly less harsh, and more realistic. This is a good thing, in my opinion.
Tuluk rocks. Allanak rocks harder.
If you don't like it, change it. I don't think anybody's actually said this yet, but I imagine it'll be coming soon. My response? Sure. By God, I'd love to.
I think what a lot of newer players don't realize is that when New Tuluk made its debut, it felt very imposed on the playerbase. I don't recall any "What should New Tuluk to be like" posts, I don't remember anyone asking for my opinion, or giving an address where I could send my opinion. Now, I doubt that this is the case... I'm sure lots of great players had a say in the formation of New Tuluk, but those were most likely the players that a hand in its formation ICly. All of us stuck with characters down in Luir's or Allanak just sort of had these Bards of the Poets Circle and infamous Tuluki subtlety shoved on to us.
Now, I'm seeing staff (Naiona and Tlaloc, specifically), actually asking for opinions on the state of Tuluk, and as you can see by this thread, I'm more than happy to give my opinion and try to rectify what I see as its problems. I have a number of suggestions on how to make Tuluk not only more different from Allanak, but more Zalanthan (in my view of what Zalanthas should be), as well. I'd be more than happy to share them, but first, I'm sort of testing the waters to see how responsive to change the staff and players might be.

[Armaddict]

as long as you don't get caught..

I have problems with the assassination/thievery as well.

By the logic, the -most- respected thieves and assassins would be the ones that literally should be unknown.  Yet, they're still supposed to register for their work?  That goes against the whole idea of being in a profession that targets your peers anyway.

Sure, it's legal there, they don't -have- to keep it secret.  Would you want to register, knowing that the templar you register it with now has the power to share that knowledge with anyone?  That they could now hire their own assassin, legally, to get YOU?

Meh.  Too ridiculous.  I say the 'art' of assassination and thievery is more exemplified in Allanak, where people don't even know that person -exists-.  They say people just disappear in Tuluk from the templarate?  People just disappear in Allanak from the criminals.  THAT is art in assassination and thievery.

[Tamarin]

I'm fairly responsive to change, but I'd have to see what your ideas are.  Do you think you could post them?

[Intrepid]

I have to say I disagree with the notion of unknown assassins.  A concept
long denied to this game before New Tuluk returned was the idea of an
assassin for hire.

It's just not all that practical in Allanak, since they'll execute the
individual.  Making it a respected part of society makes it possible for
that individual to be hired.  No one has to know his or her identity and
personal history, but now there is the option of finding and hiring that
person rather than just wishing The Assassin Faerie would fall from the
heavens.

In addition, for those of you who are about to say it's "un-Zalanthan", that
aspect of Tuluk existed in the old docs over a decade ago.  It's one of the
bardic traditions acquired from the old Dark Sun tabletop game.

The way it went was simple:

1] Hire bard (assassin) to kill target or thief to steal an item.
2] Bard/thief visit's target's house (usually a noble/templar/merchant).
3] Host cannot refuse but watches bard/thief like a hawk.
4] Noble either ends up dead or bard ends up caught/dead by morning.

Here's the clincher though: If a bard or thief confessed to the crime, it was
not the bard/thief who was punished, it was the noble who hired him/her.
Remember, the bard/thief was just the instrument.  Of course, while that
gets the bard/thief off the hook, it gains a blackmark for said character,
so many leave that as a last resort.  For practical reasons, this cannot be
done in game, obviously.

The Hlum/Surif noble system in Tuluk, as well as their infamous hunt, is
also right out of the pages of Dark Sun (see: Gulg citystate for details).  If
anything, I see more of the Dark Sun influence on Tuluk than I do on
Allanak, where culture and barbarism stand side by side.

I realize that Arm is not a direct reflection of Dark Sun and is, in fact,
very different from it, but the surface appearances we're so hooked on
for the game that people claim are in Allanak and not in Tuluk is just not
true.  They're in both locales, if you know the material well enough.

[bloodfromstone]

I would actually disagree that the assassin-for-hire is not practical in Allanak. Yes, they'll just execute the individual, if he gets caught. I'm not overly familiar with Tuluki laws, but I know it's a big dishonor, etc, if you get caught. That's the key to assassination. Don't get caught. I've known of several assassins that did pretty well for themselves in Allanak, for a time. Of course, all of these things come to an end, but I'd imagine that is true regardless of which City-State you're operating out of.

Host cannot refuse but watches bard/thief like a hawk.

Maybe I'm too used to playing in the South, but I think this is pretty silly. If there was a tradition of assassins inviting themselves to people's estates to kill them, and some bard invted himself over right after I made some rash political move, you can bet my guards would strike him down just inside the doorway. I can't imagine anyone in Zalanthas scoffing because Lord Winrothol had a glaringly obvious assassination/theft attempt brushed away.

Anyway, once again, this might be my southern experience or my lack of experience with the poets/registered rogues of Tuluk talking. It's just something I don't think will ever sit quite right with me.

[Intrepid]

I'm of two minds about it.

I do think it is silly and impractical for someone to willingly allow a bard
in, but one thing I did forget to mention is that the bard may have some
clues as to who he/she was sent by.

As for not striking the individual down or capturing/torturing them outright,
Allanaki nobles tend to have a case of "put your strongest foot forward"
in their actions.  That is to say, it's a show of strength to let the bard in
and defeat them with guile.

On the other hand, there does some to be a playability issue involved in
that aspect that always bothered me about the bard and thief classes.  But
then again, what we know of as "Assassin" on Armageddon was exactly
what Dark Sun called "Bard".  Kind of a catch-22 there.

[Pantoufle]

Visibly, Tuluk is a piece of art whereas Allanak is the type of place I wouldn't be surprised to find Fido the Dog NPCs running around. Allanak still has a feel of the bad old days and is in horrible need of OOC rennovation. If you look hard enough, you can still find NPCs who have descriptions which practically read:

A tall, gaunt elf

This elf is tall and gaunt. He looks very mean. I wouldn't mess with him if I were you.

A tall, gaunt elf is in excellent condition.

If you see an npc with a description like that, use the typo command please, because I sure don't see that in Allanak anywhere - but perhaps I've missed it.

You've made an oversight of my use of the word practically.  You're likely not seeing any NPCs such as the above example because I didn't said there are any.  I said there are some which aren't that far off.  I was indicating the lack of depth which some NPCs in Allanak possess and the fact that they are contradicted by their Tuluki counterparts.

[Ghost]

I have to say I disagree with the notion of unknown assassins. A concept
long denied to this game before New Tuluk returned was the idea of an
assassin for hire.

It's just not all that practical in Allanak, since they'll execute the
individual.

Not exactly.  In Allanak, a good assassin is always valued.  Even by the templarate. By a good assassin, I am not saying the one that has the maxed backstabbing, but a professional one.  If you know how to talk to a templar, how to talk to your employer, and that you are a successful assassin, you are  -almost- invincible in Allanak.  Even if you got caught, the templar is the law right?

Yes, I played a long lived assassin in Allanak.  It is quite possible to make another one outlive him.

[Kalden]

If you see an npc with a description like that, use the typo command please, because I sure don't see that in Allanak anywhere - but perhaps I've missed it.

Take a good long look at the Labyrinth. It's pretty damn stock, and it's not a good thing.

That said, I hate Tuluk and I probably always will.

[Yokunama]

PLEASE don't make Allanak all artistic and full of bards... Even if I like the 'naki songs much better.

Allanak has bards and poets, but they are not as popular as the arena fights.

[ibusoe]

When I first started playing, I used to think Tuluk was easier than Allanak.

Let's face it.  If you have a purse full of coins, it's easy to ride into Tuluk, hit a couple of bars, and grab some spice....hear a bard play.  No one will probably look at you funny.  

But if you hang around long enough, you'll likely run into trouble.  The difference that I've noticed is that in Allanak, people jump on the noobs first off.  In Tuluk, people seem to jump on anyone that doesn't fit in well.  So if you're only visiting for a couple of weeks, you probably won't pick up much notice.  

On a longer scale, Tuluk seems very dangerous if you make waves or tick off the wrong people.  As is often stated, the dangers of Tuluk are quite subtle and kept out of the public eye.  Additionally, there is a lot of tolerance for things that are taboo in other parts of the world -- e.g. thievery, minority races.

But just try playing an openly magic-character in Tuluk, or taking part in an openly inter-racial romance, or try to initiate a relationship with someone outside of your social station, and you'll run into trouble real quick.

It boils down to time scale in my opinion -- Allanak is dangerous to all new characters, but is not so bad provided you survive your first few conflicts.  Tuluk is dangerous to anyone who attracts attention, no matter how long they've been there.

Anyone else notice something like this?

[Ender]

I've been reading a lot of Post-Colonial literature lately and have done a great deal of thinking about the situation of Tuluk's rebirth.'

There aren't that many real life situations similiar to Tuluk's.  The only recent one I can think of would be France's liberation from Germany after WW2, and that occupation was only for about five years, but that period after their liberation sparked the French New Wave movement in Cinema which is highly regarded.

In Tuluk they are in a very distinct Post-Colonial situation.  They were conquered by a people with a very different and clashing culture.  They were dispersed and nearly had their culture stamped out.

When a society comes that close to the brink of destruction, when they do manage to not only survive but to get revenge against their oppressors the first thing that society does is try to reestablish its cultural identity.  This identity will undoubtedly be different than their original identity, and most likely an exaggeration to the point of hyperbole of their original identity in an attempt to completly differentiate themselves from the oppressor they hated.

Even in victory the scars run deep for Tuluk as they would for any society that has had to endure what they had to.

[Tlaloc]

If you see an npc with a description like that, use the typo command please, because I sure don't see that in Allanak anywhere - but perhaps I've missed it.

Take a good long look at the Labyrinth. It's pretty damn stock, and it's not a good thing.

That said, I hate Tuluk and I probably always will.

Bzzt. Try again. The Labyrinth, like all areas on Armageddon, was completely written from scratch, and it indeed went through a complete re-write during the last revamp of Allanak. There are no 'stock' areas on Armageddon.

[bardess]

ibusoe is really on the ball, I think.

In Allanak, you'll know if you piss of a noble or particularly, a templar.  In Tuluk, you'll never know.  In fact, you'll probably live for awhile and even forget that time when you said this or that.  But eventually, it comes back to haunt you.  I think that this would keep you more on your heels-- instead of knowing right away, you have to wait, wonder, and suck up.

Tuluk is also pretty discrimatory.  You could be a totally and completely, honest, just-making-a-living southron but if you look at someone wrong, they might go complain to His Faithful.  Or worse, a bard.  Pissing off a bard is not a good thing to do, because some turn out to be assassins, have assassin friends, or just plain have too many connections for anyone to compete with.

Things are different in Tuluk for one big reason.  Tulukis are living in His Light and 'nakis are living in His Shadow.  In Tuluk, the upper castes mingle and occasionally do things for the commoners.  They demand respect, but at the same time they offer a bit.  This trails back to the Occupation, when in the end, the commoners really did save the city.  But in Allanak, the method is to scare and oppress the people.

I, personally, don't see much wrong with Tuluk at all.  The fact that the authority has taken a completely different approach to controlling the population is a huge factor as to why, as you say, Tuluk is so easier or isn't harsh enough.

[Kalden]

Bzzt. Try again. The Labyrinth, like all areas on Armageddon, was completely written from scratch, and it indeed went through a complete re-write during the last revamp of Allanak. There are no 'stock' areas on Armageddon.

Then I guess it just wasn't very well-written.  :roll:

When I say stock area, I mean an area where ONE room has been written and then copy/pasted over and over and over. It's annoying. What's worse is that these rooms aren't very well-written in and of themselves. A dead-end with what? Sheer walls? Abandoned buildings with simply walls, no windows, no rubble in the corner? Up exits with no description of what is leading up - is it stairs? Is it a rope? Is it a magickal elevator?  :shock:

[Intrepid]

When I say stock area, I mean an area where ONE room has been written and then copy/pasted over and over and over. It's annoying. What's worse is that these rooms aren't very well-written in and of themselves. A dead-end with what? Sheer walls? Abandoned buildings with simply walls, no windows, no rubble in the corner? Up exits with no description of what is leading up - is it stairs? Is it a rope? Is it a magickal elevator?  :shock:

I think I understand where you're coming from on this, but...it's a maze,
so I think it's supposed to be redundant.  Granted, details could be added
that are also redundant, but the descriptions may have been done the
way they were to save the eyes of those who never use brief mode.

Like myself, come to think of it.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

When I say stock area, I mean an area where ONE room has been written and then copy/pasted over and over and over. It's annoying. What's worse is that these rooms aren't very well-written in and of themselves. A dead-end with what? Sheer walls? Abandoned buildings with simply walls, no windows, no rubble in the corner? Up exits with no description of what is leading up - is it stairs? Is it a rope? Is it a magickal elevator?  :shock:

You could always rewrite it for them. Maybe you'll capture the essense of the Rinth better.

[Hymwen]

When I say stock area, I mean an area where ONE room has been written and then copy/pasted over and over and over.

I think "stock" is the technical term for areas that are part of the raw, unworked MUD that you download and build on.

I.E, if you download a standard ROM MUD, and start building on it but keep the Mudschool area that all ROM MUDs come with, that area would be "stock", because it hasn't been changed from the "standard package" ROM MUD that you downloaded.

I'm pretty sure that's what it means.

[Larrath]

I think "stock" is the technical term for areas that are part of the raw, unworked MUD that you download and build on.

This is correct.

There is no technical term for an area composed of rooms with identical descriptions, though "void-like" is applicable for broad areas that are meant to be confusing - the Salt Flats may be a good example.
(A void area is an area where the room exists are seemingly random and sometimes looping, making it very easy to not get lost).

Anyhow, my understanding is that the rooms in the 'rinth intentionally look similar in order to make the place more confusing.  Like a labyrinth.

[Kalden]

Anyhow, my understanding is that the rooms in the 'rinth intentionally look similar in order to make the place more confusing. Like a labyrinth.

Perhaps. I know that it could be more confusing and less boring. More rooms with 4 exits would make it confusing(which it is currently not). Nooks and crannies every which way, ect. Abandoned buildings with a little flavor to them might make it a -little- less confusing but would add hugely to the environment. Ect.

[Folker]

My apologies if I am stating something that was already mentioned, since I read the first page, and skipped the other 3. Dont kill me, I dont do it 'that' often, it's just 2 am here.


To be honest, while I would love more documentation on 'Naki culture. There is an in theme reason why would Tuluki appear more culturally rich (or rich generally), then Allanak. The reason number one for it, would be the fact that ... Tuluki ground is richer then Allanki's desert. The only way to fix this, is to make the materials that can be found only in the desert aka ... obsidian. That would balance out the material richness of the two cities.

But material and cultural are two related things, and from what I read about Allanak, the city has been 'decaying' comercially and therefore culturally for centuries. Ever since Tektolnes failed to keep his hold over Tuluk, he's fucked. He and his city will last for a couple more centuries, decaying more and more in his conservative ways, and eventually Tuluki themselves would probably conquer them if there was any real reason to go into the desert.

While Tuluki is experiencing an upsurge of enthusiasm, something that is very natural of any country that managed to keep some of it's culture while under domination, and then suddenly been released. Tuluki culture and it's people has been reinvigorated by the massive calamity, shock, and sudden freedom that befell them. That is a very natural occurance, that happened numerious times within RL cultures aswell. That, and extremely rich territory, with both foodstuffs and building material should be a very good reason why Tuluki is thriving and Allanak isnt.

So, three things should happen to allow Allanak to regain atleast some commercial standings. Spice should be allowed back in, that would not fix the problem, but would boost things up commercially. Obsidian would suddenly turn from 'one' of the materials into 'the' material, one much better then wood in some unique way. Or ... an opening of iron mine right near the obsidian ones. Other then those, I dont really see what else can Allanak get out of a desert ... except maybe oil.

Note, availability of 'salt' would probably not help as much, because ... you cant equip armies or build/feed cities with it.

In short, the only reason why Allanak is important, is because Tek laid his eggs inside it, and he cant leave.

[John]

like the Bards of Poet's Circle

Allanak has the Arena and it's bloodthirsty gladiators, where people will cheer for a particular gladiator and boo for another. Where people go and place bets, and I imagine professional bookkeepers work out of.

or the caste tattoos.

I'll give you that.

Allanak, on the other hand, has very little to no documentation on their artistic traditions.

They have an entire Noble House who lives and dies by bards, constantly through festivals and parties. House Fale.

Now while this might not be in any offcial docs (and should probably make it's way there), I'd say bards in Allanak are seen to entertain. Whether they're entertaining nobles or entertaining commoners, they're entertaining. They're valued for how well they can entertain their audience. Whereas in Tuluk the knowledge of a bard is valued much more then simply because it will entertain the populace, but because it shows someone whose more knowledgable in their art. A Tuluki bard will be respected for how well they have composed a song, whereas an Allanaki bard will be valued for how entertaining their song was.

There is a "Tuluki Roleplay" document, for example, with no corresponding "Allanaki Roleplay" document.

You mean this one for Tuluki Nobles, which is definitely not a copy of the Allanaki Noble one? (note that the Allanaki one is much larger).

The result is that it seems like Tuluk simply has "better" art, or "more" art, or a "more refined" populace.

Better is subjective. Will an Allanaki like a Tulukie's art? Doubtful. Will a Tuluki like a nakkies art? Doubtful.

The problem is that Allanak should have the same level of detail, for the sake of realism if nothing else.

I'm ambivalent on this. I think in the desert it's carnivore against carnivore/scavenger. Up in Tuluk they actually have herbivores. Anything too weak dies too quickly.

And rangers can survive in Allanak, if they're smart. They don't have to be as smart in Tuluk, but a dumb ranger will die quickly no matter where. I know, I've played in both areas The learning curve isn't as steep in Tuluk.

I find it absolutely mind-boggling, and a touch unrealistic, that Tuluk could retain its cultural values (with such specifics as caste tattoos and bardic tradition) during years of oppression, in a harsh desert climate, with a largely illiterate populace.

Tattoos are fairly easy to remember and bards are traditionally the keepers of knowledge IRL, I imagine they play such a role in Tuluk.

But you're concentrating on what they kept, rather then what they lost. They lost the Great Hunt (name?), they lost Hlum nobles, an entire caste! They lost to a degree the superiority of the nobles. I believe Tuluki nobles and Allanaki nobles were once very similar, now the Tulukie nobles survived only because of the commoners. The gap between noble and commoner closed significantly. Although not entirely, so don't go around treating nobles as equals

I also imagine the noble Houses lost quite a bit of information. And didn't Tuluk also once be the richest city ever? What is their wealth like now?

they somehow managed to surpass Allanak in terms of cultural and artistic achievement during a very short span of time.

About 10 IC years. And I'd say it was extremely expensive. If Tuluk is in debt for a long while I wouldn't be surprised. Then again, who could have lent them the money?

I'd of used that stone for building roads, not commissioning statues... but I guess we should chalk that one up to the average Tuluki's fervent appreciation of the arts.

Or a Tulukie noble's understanding of the necessity of propaganda.

I personally think for all of Tuluk's supposed advanced status, it's actually quite crude. Sure thieves and assassins are legally recognized and for the experts, respected and have a high social position, there's no organized crime. Nowhere to learn the trade, no-one to turn to.

And while the bardic circles do seek to gain knowledge, I'd say they're enhancing the noble's ignorance. Noble's are actually sent to a bard, rather then have a bard hired by the noble House? That's a big difference there, and demonstrates just how the two cultures differ.

Oh, and while they have the bardic circles to gather knowledge and train, Allanak has the Atrium and the Tor Academy, which are much more accessible to players then the bardic circles I believe. Again, highlighting the difference (well, the Tor Academy does anyway). Where commoners go to Nobles to learn in Allanak, they go to other commoners to learn in Tuluk. That says the nobles are definitely lacking something

Oh, and as for art around the city's, I'd say it's about equal actually. Allanak got a fair bit of art recently (as in, over a year ago).

So for your points I don't refute:
* Caste tattoos
* Fauna and Flora being gentler up north then down south.

So I'd say Tuluk is hardly more developed then Allanak.

I would love to see more documentation about Allanaki culture, art, etc.

Where do you think it's lacking? I'm all for more documentation, but I can't say "I don't know as much about Allanak in respect to X as I do about Tuluk." I only brought up one point in my above post that isn't explicitly said in the docs.

and I have yet to meet any "evil" characters (such as 'rinthers in Allanak).

You aren't looking in the right places.

People are nicer

PCs are nicer. This can only change by playing mean bastards.

the environment is much more gentle, and food and water costs so much less than it does in Allanak. It doesn't portray Zalanthas' harshness and struggle like I personally think it should.

One's a desert, the other has a forest. How would you portray Zalanthas' harshness?

Allanak just seems to have more life, there's more little details like rooftops, alleys and things that make it seem like people live there. Interesting little out-of-the-way places, which I haven't seen in Tuluk at all.

So is Allanak more developed or less developed?

It would be nice if Allanak had more depth in its arts and music and general philosophies.

Do you think it's not as in depth as Tuluk? If so, how? Is it just the bardic circles?

What really needs to be done is several folks (I nominate me for one) need to sit down and hash out the culture and philosophy of the south.

Philosophy:
* Nobles are better then everyone else and the commoners copy them in everything, only making changes when they have to because of money.
* A good fighter is respected and admired.
* Thieving and murdering is terrible and shouldn't be done. Nobles of course have differing views when it suits them.
* Nobles and Templars are to be feared and obeyed no matter what.
* It is bad to show bare skin. To be attractive, it's much better to wear form-fitting clothing.
* It's better to do a job well then be flashy while doing a job.
* Allanakies are extremely superstitious about magickers, with many documented superstitions.
* Geometric shapes and stripes are preffered to adorn clothing, with trims having embroidery, bands of solid colors or patterned hems
* People's entertainment is more base. They love a good old fashioned execution.

Now that I think of it - one of the problems with Tuluk is that it seems to have been built around (literally) bards and the bardic circle.  Doing this has removed any sense of desperate struggle for the PCs and probably the NPCs.

Why? The bards are in their section, when they come and perform, great. Otherwise, life continues on. Your average Zalanthan still needs to eat and sleep.

When the bards have to go underground and play in secrete their national anthems of old....then you'll have music worth hearing.  Then you'll have poems worth repeating.

Been there done that. Is it really just a case of people wanting to go back to how the game use to be?

Actually. Are there PC Templars in Tuluk? This could be big part of the problem.

And Allanakies are kept happy through the Arena and Fail's bards. Unfortunately both of these things are fairly virtual most of the time.

Since known magickers will die almost on sight, people are more able to relax without having to worry about what the gemmer in table right next to you will do.

This is balanced by nobles and Templars hiring spies among any commoner. They should do so much more then Allanaki templars and nobles do. Which means the only difference is, in Allanak gemmers are the spies. In Tuluk anyone is the spy. However I imagine PCs don't do this too often. So do it! Just bribe any old commoner to rat on his friends. Everyone has a secret.

For players in Tuluk, it allows them to be imaginitive and express themselves through their characters more easily than in Allanak, while players in allanak really wouldn't have to worry about what to wear since what is worn is already necessary for the weather conditions.

Not really true. Someone who goes outside the city without proper protection is a fool. An Allanaki who doesn't leave the city will wear varying clothes, expressing themself. Go to a tavern (not the Gaj) if you don't believe me.

I think what a lot of newer players don't realize is that when New Tuluk made its debut, it felt very imposed on the playerbase.

I disagree.

I don't recall any "What should New Tuluk to be like" posts, I don't remember anyone asking for my opinion, or giving an address where I could send my opinion. Now, I doubt that this is the case... I'm sure lots of great players had a say in the formation of New Tuluk, but those were most likely the players that a hand in its formation ICly. All of us stuck with characters down in Luir's or Allanak just sort of had these Bards of the Poets Circle and infamous Tuluki subtlety shoved on to us.

Perfectly reasonable IMO. I don't see a problem with it. If the staff want to ask us players, great. But I don't have a problem with them changing things how they want, provided IC reasons are given (the retcons I do disagree with and are unfortunate IMO. I'd much rather it didn't happen).

Now, I'm seeing staff (Naiona and Tlaloc, specifically), actually asking for opinions on the state of Tuluk, and as you can see by this thread, I'm more than happy to give my opinion and try to rectify what I see as its problems. I have a number of suggestions on how to make Tuluk not only more different from Allanak, but more Zalanthan (in my view of what Zalanthas should be), as well. I'd be more than happy to share them, but first, I'm sort of testing the waters to see how responsive to change the staff and players might be.

You probably should have sent the e-mail when asked, not afterwards

1] Hire bard (assassin) to kill target or thief to steal an item.
2] Bard/thief visit's target's house (usually a noble/templar/merchant).
3] Host cannot refuse but watches bard/thief like a hawk.
4] Noble either ends up dead or bard ends up caught/dead by morning.

With all due respect, this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, and if ever an assassin or thief does this, they won't be respected. They'll be laughed at/scorned.

Having said all that, Tuluk isn't as gritty as Allanak, and I don't know why. And I don't know how to change it. I just disagree on all of the above points

I think a big problem is

In Allanak, you'll know if you piss of a noble or particularly, a templar.  In Tuluk, you'll never know.

This needs to change, and quickly. Being subtle doesn't mean not expressing displeasure. Find subtle ways to let someone know in no uncertain terms, your angry!

And everyone should know what happened. If someone's quietly dealt with, to show a noble's displeasure, that person should talk about it to everyone. Everyone should know "don't piss off Noble X, he did such and such to commoner Y" (rather then just "don't piss of Noble X cause he's such a swell guy"). Nobles should stop being so buddy buddy with commoners, and begin to widen the seperation.

At least, that's the opinion of someone who hasn't been in Tuluk for a while.

There is no technical term for an area composed of rooms with identical descriptions

I believe the technical term is "lazy"

Just kidding

[jcarter]

Tuluk has a lot of potential, and its surrounding area allows for a certain kind of player vs environment nature. In my opinion, the main problem with Tuluk is the playerbase is spread too thin, which really fucks things up. On the one hand, it's good as it forces diversity. On the other hand, you have the Poet's Circle, Sun Legions, Winrothol, Tenneshi, Kurac, Kadius, and Salarr all up there, as well as it being a haven for independents. This doesn't quite bode well for Tuluk, as it's really not as strong in numbers as Allanak.

Tuluk can be fun, and there is underhanded stuff that goes on. The problem also is that a lot of the characters in Tuluk, from what I've seen, tend to be somewhat more long-lived. New characters bring in flavor and spur certain things into action. Right now, the state of the Tuluk union is basically grab whatever PC you can for your clan.

The way I think things could be improved is just by either having more PCs made in Tuluk or closing down a couple of clans. The only clan I could really see being shut down is Tenneshi, as the pbase is small and, with all due respect to the players within it, I haven't really seen much contributed from it. Other than that, Tuluk really just needs more players.