Nen's Thief Bible - Do we need a "Victim RP Guide?"

[witchman]

I'm thinking that most of the abuse I've seen when it comes to RPing a thief is from the victims - and perhaps this is broader than just thievery and should apply to playing a victim in general.

Things like: don't automatically assume the nearest PC is the thief, don't refer to a PC by his exact short desc, don't post on boards saying you were attacked by the badger-eyed, half-mul - you know.

Thoughts?

[Carnage]

If there's only one other PC in the room and you're in the Gaj, DON'T start screaming, 'THIEF! THIEF!' and point to them. There's a myriad of NPCs and VNPCs in there. It can be any one of them.

And to add onto the point: If you had equipment stolen and someone else has the same piece, maybe with the same flags (bloodied or sweat-stained), it doesn't necessarily mean that they're your thief. A, most people probably carry around the equipment. B, the blood's probably in a different pattern. That just gets to me, too. I could see if it was something personalized, but when people start pointing fingers and saying, 'He stole my a bone breastplate!' it gets ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

I think my number one beef is sudden scan orgies because one person emoted looking in a certain direction and then scanning the room.

Unless there is an audible sound made by people when they scan a room I don't see how you would notice someone at a table looking around and you divine that they are up to something.

[Lazloth]

Easier solution than hoping people play along consistently is to simply remove the echo on scan.

[Midland]

Or...............

The blue-eyed, auburn-haired woman looks at someone as she glances over the room.

*everyone oocly jumps up, scans, draws weapons and starts to guard*

[Sanvean]

I'd love to see "A Victim's Guide to Roleplaying Out A Crime", if people want to suggest what should go in it.

[Cyrian20]

Yeah Rule number one. I see it sometimes but ultra rarely. Arm is fun if your winning or losing, as long as the rp is good. People should learn that sometimes although code says you catch the person or whatnot, That is code wise and you can still dictate it.

Example You catch the four-eyed dwarf with a hand in your pocket
Now as the player you know you just caught them but you can decide.

Would it be more fun to shout thief. Or have a little fun rp. Example Egan inspired me to use was when I caught a guy pickpocketing a female pc of mine instead of shouting thief he got a good smack across the face cause he tried to sneak a quick feel.

To make a short point have a little fun, Let things get stolen...on occasion anyways and remember that rp is more fun than point, shout, watch militia kill elf.

[Anonymous]

I've been playing a theif who emotes tons before and after each theft. I don't know what it was like when this post went up, or where the poster was playing. I do know that now, where I'm playing, people are good about playing along.

Maybe it's posts like this that raise awareness than are making the difference.

[John]

Wow, I never considered having a "Guide to RPing a Victim" but it's a great idea.

I think everything that's been mentioned here should be put into it, but also on ways on how a person would react to being stolen from. ICly was the item stolen important to the character? Is he the sort to start foaming at the mouth when his mug of ale goes missing, or is he likely to shrug it off and just order another one? Was that 2 'sid broken sword that was just stolen the only possession he has of his dead father? If so how is he going to react? Is he going to demand the militia start looking for a dingy, banged up old sword? Or is he likely to just get really depressed?

Also, I remember a while back a thread about going to the militia was brought up. I think some of the things from that should be in the document. Things like the fact that the law is corrupt and will help whoever offers the biggest advantage to the militia-man or Templar, and also to re-consider going to the militia when something bad has happened. Does your character have a fear of the militia? Do you have enough evidence for the militia to do something. I remember in the thread people saying how when they're in the militia, they're constantly getting people coming up to them to say "The tall elf stole my non-descript sword" and expect something to be done about it. So IMO that should definetly be emphasised in the document.

Also emphasising that while losing an item is annoying both IC and OOC, you shouldn't get angry about it OOCly and just go with the flow, is important I think.

I love all of the new documentation that's about lately. I especially loved the Roleplaying a Linguist document. It gave me several ideas on how to feasibly pull off certain roles.

[krelin]

I personally think the thief does have some responsibility to not being caught (even within the boundaries of the code).  For example, if you're robbing from someone in an empty tavern (devoid of PCs), AND they know you're there (ie. you didn't sneak in, aren't hiding), then you really haven't planned out your crime very well.  Much wiser, imho, is to wait until the tavern is busy, lots of PCs are wandering around AND they're distracted.  That way, when you make off with their steel sword, they -really- won't ever know it was you (ICly or OOCly)....

Also, I think in general people do fairly well with reacting/failing to react to peeks and failed "steal" attempts (as long as the failure is "You cover your mistake"...  the ones where you're caught red-handed...   I think people should RP as "caught red-handed", frankly.  If I found a guy (or even a gal, maybe...  maybe not) with his hand in my pocket, I'd be lookin' for a cop...

[John]

For example, if you're robbing from someone in an empty tavern (devoid of PCs), AND they know you're there (ie. you didn't sneak in, aren't hiding), then you really haven't planned out your crime very well.  Much wiser, imho, is to wait until the tavern is busy, lots of PCs are wandering around AND they're distracted.  That way, when you make off with their steel sword, they -really- won't ever know it was you (ICly or OOCly)....

I have to disagree with that. I don't think it's valid to say "if there are only 2 PCs in the Gaj and it's nighttime, then when something goes missing it's the other PC" cause it's meant to be busy with tons of VNPCs. True it's up to the thief to make sure they're not going to get caught ICly, but IMO it's up to the victim not to abuse OOC knowledge (e.g. there is only one other person in the room).

ALSO on that specific example (cause it happens often enough) JUST because there's only one other visible PC in the room, don't assume it's them. If I was a thief who had Hide, Sneak and Steal at a high-enough level to steal without anyone seeing me and I saw only 2 PCs in a tavern, I'd ask myself if it's IC to steal from one of the guys, and watch as the other PC gets the blame for it. Again, doing that is also abusing OOC knowledge, but with things the way they use to be  (and from the postings here I'd say it doesn't happen as often nowadays) you'd have to trick the person both ICly and OOCly to successfully steal from them. It's good to see that's not as common.

[krelin]

I think that's part of the game of playing a thief...  you have to plan your attacks....  If you're forced to do so by an ooc constraint, that's fine, frankly.  For me, playing a thief character, that makes the thing all that much more fun.  If I can sneak, hide, and steal, then I can basically take whatever I want...  but if I can only sneak -- or worse, if I can only steal...  hmm, that makes for a more interesting challenge.  Now I have to arrange for ways to get in and out without being seen (or noticed), and I have to take into account IC and OOC limitations.

I think thieves are pretty powerful.  It sucks having a 1000 coin sword stolen.  Or the key to your house.  Or your pack.  Or that bag of jewelery you were going to show that nobleman.  Forcing victims to RP around a thief's poor planning seems a lot to ask.

[Carnage]

I think thieves are pretty powerful. It sucks having a 1000 coin sword stolen. Or the key to your house. Or your pack. Or that bag of jewelery you were going to show that nobleman. Forcing victims to RP around a thief's poor planning seems a lot to ask.

I can do the same thing with a ranger. Poison you and steal your crap when you're knocked out. Or I can do the same thing as a thug subclass. Sap you, then steal your crap. No matter what, if I want the stuff, I'm going to get it. The only reason you're picking out thieves is because they're the most frustrating. They can take all that time you worked to get that shiny new crossbow and toss it all away.

The thing is that you just need to be a good sport. I think it peeves everyone off when they get stolen from. The only difference is that some people can control it, and some don't. Hell, just take a walk in their shoes. I've played a thief before. It's hard. You can barely stay alive if you try to work freelance.

[krelin]

If what I'm saying comes off as an attack on thieves, I certainly don't mean it that way.  I've played a thief, and found it (as you suggest) remarkably difficult (especially in Allanak, especially since the Labyrinth is totally unlivable now).  All I'm saying is...  the coded limitations on thieves are fine.  Their coded strengths are fine.  No additional tweaking is needed by forcing players to act as though they -can't- figure out who was after their stuff...  If "the tall figure in the dark, hooded cloak" is standing near you when you feel a hand in your cloak...  umm, gee, who could it be?  Imagining up VNPCs or accusing NPCs who have never attempted to rob me before seems -really- silly and unnecessary.  If you're a thief and you get caught, you're caught.  So what?  You give back anything you've stolen and go to jail, worst case, or make a potent enemy, perhaps?  Maybe you shouldn't have been in Lord Templar Hard Nose's pocket in the first place?

As for

I can do the same thing with a ranger. Poison you and steal your crap when you're knocked out. Or I can do the same thing as a thug subclass. Sap you, then steal your crap. No matter what, if I want the stuff, I'm going to get it.

This is a LOT easier and lower risk for thieves, imho.  A ranger is putting his ass on the line trying to attack you like this, and would probably be an idiot to do so in a crowded tavern.  Same for the thug.  By contrast a pick-pocket SHOULD be working in a crowded tavern.

The trick to being a thief, imho, is not minding some time in jail, and not minding when people look at you funny, or cover their stuff up when you're nearby...  and imho, those people are playing pretty correctly.

[John]

Okay, here's another way to look at the same issue. Is it fine for a burglar to wait until hardly is logged on before going and stealing from all the houses? IMO Hell no. It's fine to break into houses during off-peak times, but to deliberately wait until off-peak times before doing it so you don't get caught, IMO is being twinky.

Can you see how that's similar to a victim blaming PC X because they're the only PC in the room/only one online? Saying it's not fine for burglars to wait until off-peak times before breaking into homes but it being fine to blame PC X because they're the only one online, IMO is unfair.

But then again, you might be fine with burglars waiting until off-peak times before breaking into houses. If you are, that's fine. Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

[krelin]

...is it fine for a burglar to wait until hardly is logged on...

I think so, yup.  This is the same as robbing people's houses at Christmas, when they have a higher chance of being on vacation.  The RL parallels here (in both cases) are perfect.  It is both the curse and the blessing of the burglar that people leave their houses at certain times.  It's a curse if you happen to find them inside, and a blessing if you happen to find them outside.  That said, I don't think I'd go out of my way to wait for "There are 5 people in the world, including yourself." that definitely seems OOC.  However, waiting until an evening when no one seems to be around, or when everyone's gathered for a performance...  that doesn't  seem OOC at all.  It's your job as a thief to not get caught.  BTW, on the other side of this, I -certainly- wouldn't expect a burglar from Australia NOT to work, simply because they played at non-peak times.

[John]

waiting until everyone's gathered for a performance...  that doesn't  seem OOC at all.

That isn't OOC at all. That's actually completely IC. But waiting until you spot Person X log off before going and robbing their house IMO is OOC (breaking into someone's house when their logged off is fine, but waiting for them to log off to do it, isn't fine IMO). When people are logged off they're still around in the game.

I -certainly- wouldn't expect a burglar from Australia NOT to work, simply because they played at non-peak times.

As I said before, breaking into houses during off-peak times is fine, but waiting until off-peak times to do it so you don't get caught IMO isn't fine.

All IMO.

[krelin]

So you're saying logging off isn't an IC event?

[John]

IMO definetly not. When you log off, your still in the game. Your sleeping, eating, running small errands for Lord fancypants. Whatever it is you do when your logged in, to an extent that's what your doing when your logged out. If you log out in your house, that doesn't mean you have to stay in your house the entire time your logged out. Your probably also going to the bazaar, and buying stuff, and going to wherever you work and doing the normal jobs.

Having said that you have to be careful with what you say your character has done when your logged out. Saying you went to the bazaar is fine, but there are some things that you shouldn't claim you did when logged out. Claiming you sold gold to a tribe of elves isn't something you should claim you did, unless you sell gold to tribe's of elves on a regular basis.

[krelin]

Okay...  but you're doing those things -away from your house-.  Now.  If you logged out IN your house, then I would definitely see difficulties in raiding the place.

[Carnage]

This is a LOT easier and lower risk for thieves, imho. A ranger is putting his ass on the line trying to attack you like this, and would probably be an idiot to do so in a crowded tavern. Same for the thug. By contrast a pick-pocket SHOULD be working in a crowded tavern.

A lot easier? There's nothing 'easy' about it. Players abuse OOC knowledge that you're the only PC there. One critical failure and the PC knows for sure that it's you. Chances are it'll get reported to a templar. Then you're dead. Every steal attempt is a risk in itself.

You don't see many great thieves about because they're dead. The ones that ARE good are the ones that rarely, if ever, use steal. Stealing a sword off of someone's belt isn't easy. It took a lot of time to get there.

Thieves do what they're meant to do. The only reason there's a big problem with them is because they have to target players, rather than NPCs. If there weren't any NPCs for warriors to kill in game, people would be griping about how warriors were so great at killing things because their skills affected them. People would be complaining about how good guard was and say that they should get a better chance, because they're creeping up.

You really want thieves to tone down on going after PCs? Then start campaigning for it to be easier to pickpocket NPCs.

[krelin]

Wow...  there are a -lot- of easy-mark NPCs around...  you haven't run into them?  Gotta look harder.

[Kronus]

I wouldn't say a LOT. I'd say there's quite a few, but I'd also say that after an industrious elf sweeps through the city hitting all his usual marks after reboot, and the weapon shop suddenly inflates its stock of wavy-bladed bone daggers, that the rest of the pickpockets trying to make a living are pretty much screwed, or have to go after PCs.

Other than the odd dagger hanging off a belt, there is very little out there that's worth stealing from NPCs. You simply can't take their shirt or boots, especially just starting off, and in most cases, it's hardly worth the effort even if you do. With some notable exceptions, PCs are vastly better inventoried than NPCs from the thief point of view. They actually carry coins in their belts, stable tickets in their cloaks, and if they lose a weapon, they replace it fairly quickly.

Unfortunately, this doesn't only hurt the PC thieves. It hurts the rest of the PCs. For a very long time, after all the 'naki templars got killed off, I simply refused to go into any public rooms because it was almost guaranteed there'd be an accomplished thief hiding, not emoting, and stealing my things. After about the third or fourth kank, it honestly just got boring.
The problem is intensified when it comes to burglars. There's probably less than fifty coded residences in the city of Allanak, especially ones that don't have armies of NPC guards outside the door 9 hours a day, 11 days a week. Many of them are assumed to be just one mudbrick building in a line of 500 mudbrick buildings. But because they're the only one you get to by walking north, and they're the only one with a door that can be picked, they're the ones that get robbed every three days.

It really would be nice if there was some way to give PC thieves more NPC targets, to better reflect that, at least in the major cities, there's hundreds of thousands of people walking around. That sort of anonymity alone would vastly reduce the chances of a certain person ever being robbed, even once in his life. But at the same time, I have no idea how to accomplish this without major headaches and creating even more potential for abuse.

[Barzalene]

But more npc targets would mean less pc interaction. It's more fun to steal from a pc.

I don't see -too- much of a problem with it being hard to start a thief character... let alone become a good one. I mean, Warriors, one can train with other people to improve, to work on technique etc. Now... theoretically a pair of thieves could do this as well. Whether it be by blatant "You turn your back and tell me if you feel this" or be it an arrangement between the two that if you see the other, you try to swipe something, then give it back. Of course I see that being a little difficult for thieves due to their slightly chaotic nature (Not that I'm saying fighters -aren't- chaotic, but you know)

I forgot where I was going with this... Oh.. yeah, it should be kinda hard to be a thief, it's a tough life. And when you get good at it, you sure do reap the benefits.