Coded caste tattoos

[JohnGalt]

With the WONDERFUL addition of this accent coding, I believe now is the time for coded caste tattoo's that you can choose at character generation for Tuluki citizens.  

The reasons are obvious and wide ranging.

[Tamarin]

I always thought that these should be added before this accent code came in, but meh.  I agree.

[Larrath]

The Newbie bazaar idea will get implemented eventually, I'm sure of it.  When it does, caste tattoos should be in.

More simply, I think that there is no reason why a tattooist NPC shouldn't start up shop upstairs in the Sanctuary.  It's a bit awkward perhaps, but it's far superior to newbies having to constantly look for the tattooists in-game until someone gives them the directions.

[Cuusardo]

I am all for Tuluki caste tattoos being available at character creation.  If the PC was born and raised in Tuluk, (s)he should start out with the proper tattoos from the get-go.

[JohnGalt]

The Newbie bazaar idea will get implemented eventually, I'm sure of it.  When it does, caste tattoos should be in.

More simply, I think that there is no reason why a tattooist NPC shouldn't start up shop upstairs in the Sanctuary.  It's a bit awkward perhaps, but it's far superior to newbies having to constantly look for the tattooists in-game until someone gives them the directions.

No.  These tattoos should be obtained at birth or a very young age.  Getting these tattoos as a grown man/woman should not be something easily done, as honest citizens would immediately question why you weren't tattooed already.

These tattoos should be obtainable after PC creation, but not from a normal npc in a place as easily locateable as a normal tavern.

I realize this limits people who might want to act as spies in Tuluk, but to be honest, spying between the two city-states should NOT be an easy ordeal.  They are completely different cultures, with different accents, and these caste tattoos add to the difficulty of infiltrating that culture.

[Larrath]

No.  These tattoos should be obtained at birth or a very young age.  Getting these tattoos as a grown man/woman should not be something easily done, as honest citizens would immediately question why you weren't tattooed already.

It is still possible, theoretically, for a Tuluki citizen to have no caste tattoos.  People that want that shouldn't be automatically slapped with tattoos.

These tattoos should be obtainable after PC creation, but not from a normal npc in a place as easily locateable as a normal tavern.

And why not?  Tattoos are an art, and a tattooist could have 'normal' non-caste tattoos together with the caste tattoos.  I don't see why it makes no sense for a tattoo artist to work in the Sanctuary, as long as he keeps his area clean.  This would also be vastly beneficial for new players, because a lot of them don't know that they need to find the tattooist in the Red Sun Commons.
Having a small blurb appear after they point at Tuluk in the Hall of Kings that normal Tulukis have the six-pointed star on their hands and the blue and purple neckband on the neck would really help there.

As much as harshness is awesome, one must always consider the new players.  New generations of players are important.

[Angela Christine]

More simply, I think that there is no reason why a tattooist NPC shouldn't start up shop upstairs in the Sanctuary.

Bah.  Change the newbie spawn point to the Firestorm tavern, then stick the tattooist to right outside the tavern.   :wink:  Poor newbies are always getting stuck inside the Sanctary, running round and round the rooms with no knowledge of "leave".  The Firestorm is much simpler.


Angela Christine

[amoeba]

:wink:  Poor newbies are always getting stuck inside the Sanctary, running round and round the rooms with no knowledge of "leave".  The Firestorm is much simpler.


Angela Christine

Needing to "leave" from Sanctuary was changed a long time ago. You go south.

[Seeker]

No.  These tattoos should be obtained at birth or a very young age.  Getting these tattoos as a grown man/woman should not be something easily done, as honest citizens would immediately question why you weren't tattooed already.

It is still possible, theoretically, for a Tuluki citizen to have no caste tattoos.  People that want that shouldn't be automatically slapped with tattoos.

I completely agree with JohnGalt, and absolutely disagree with Larrath.  

Anyone not displaying their tattoos is instantly identified as an "outsider", and subject to suspicion and scrutiny the entire time they are within the Ivory Walls.

Getting caste tattoos later in life should not be an easy affair.  Essentially they are the keys to admittance into Tuluki society.

I think the best set-up should be to have the commoner caste tattoos automagically slapped on the PC at creation if they point to Tuluk from the Hall of Kings, and have any modifications made by the rare IMM intervention.

The caste tattoos artist should be pulled out of the easily accessible areas of the city completely.  I would have two places where the caste tattoos might be applied to an already existing PC later in his life:  one, completely under the Faithful's control, and the other.... someplace very unlawful.

Seeker

[Jherlen]

Completely agree with Seeker. Disagreeing with Larrath... I'm not sure why any Tuluki citizen would ever not want tattoos. (Unless they just don't want to spend money on them, due to the way things are set up right now.)

[Maybe42or54]

What exactly is so hard about getting a caste tattoo that makes it only possible for one or two Tattooists in all of the known world to tattoo onto someone?

The only ones I can see that would be even semi difficult to replicate by every tattooist is the Ivory Guard tattoo.

Tattoos, in my opinion, should be some of the most replicated things used by spies in Zalanthas.

The hard part about being a spy is the culture, the different mindset, the different views, the way you fight, and so on and so on. Not so much something that is a simple tattoo.

[Larrath]

No.  These tattoos should be obtained at birth or a very young age.  Getting these tattoos as a grown man/woman should not be something easily done, as honest citizens would immediately question why you weren't tattooed already.

It is still possible, theoretically, for a Tuluki citizen to have no caste tattoos.  People that want that shouldn't be automatically slapped with tattoos.

I completely agree with JohnGalt, and absolutely disagree with Larrath.  

Oh.  Well, I spit in your general direction.
...*wipes his monitor*

Getting caste tattoos later in life should not be an easy affair.  Essentially they are the keys to admittance into Tuluki society.

Wrong.  You forget that Tulukis add caste tattoos all the time - they simply start with the neckband and the six-pronged star (or some other 'base' tattoo).  If they were to join the T'zai Byn, and then left and joined House Kadius for a year, and then became enslaved by the Templarate and were -then- given to a bard of the Poet's Circle, this Tuluki would have a grand total of six caste tattoos.  Yes, the major clans all have their own NPC tattooists, but this is not always the case ICly.  Small merchant companies could well have their own tattoos but not be able to afford a tattooist, at which case one would ICly describe the caste to the tattooist and, as long as it conforms to some basic principles, would get it inked..  This is how I see it, anyway.

I think the best set-up should be to have the commoner caste tattoos automagically slapped on the PC at creation if they point to Tuluk from the Hall of Kings, and have any modifications made by the rare IMM intervention.

I don't think that it's worth it to make such minor things require a special application or a wish to remove tattoos.  These things take time, and having no tattoos and getting them later is easier than having tattoos and having them vanish.  Newly generated PCs walk around in clothes that they ICly wouldn't wear some of the time, but people ignore that.  Why can't they ignore some missing tattoos?  Who said they only got those tattoos after chargen?  When I make a new character, I can go to the Bazaar, pick up a trinket from Kadius, and play that trinket as though it's been passed down through my PC's family through the past ten generations.

The caste tattoos artist should be pulled out of the easily accessible areas of the city completely.  I would have two places where the caste tattoos might be applied to an already existing PC later in his life:  one, completely under the Faithful's control, and the other.... someplace very unlawful.

First of all, just about the entire city of Tuluk is under the Faithful's control.  Who said that the tattooist isn't on their payroll, or that they don't have two people watching each tattooist and one person watching those two people?
Do we want commoners going back and forth through the Templar's Quarter in Tuluk because they just joined the Byn and want a tattoo?  Nonsense.  Though having a caste tattooist somewhere unlawful does make sense, people doing these tattoos should be very easy to find.  Otherwise, what do you do each time you have a baby?  Waste the Templarate's time?

Also, I'd like to second Maybe42or54's words.  There are some very skilled tattooists in Allanak and Red Storm, too, and the caste tattoos are usually rather simple - especially considering that live people are doing them and mess up every now and then, and people are probably used to that.

[Seeker]

What exactly is so hard about getting a caste tattoo that makes it only possible for one or two Tattooists in all of the known world to tattoo onto someone?

A technique that requires a little special knowledge, and, in my opinon, in this case, possibly Muk Utep's will?  Or his scads of freaky minions.


Seeker

[Maybe42or54]

Yea. Even if that was the case.
Tek has minions.
The Sandlord has minions.

I am sure Tek's minions have a book of every used northern caste tattoo known to them, including the original, confiscated tattoo (including skin) off of a commoner that had it.

[Jherlen]

By themselves, no, the tattoos aren't anything special.

But now people can learn to speak like a northerner. Who knows if people will be able to imitate accents perfectly, but if they can, some southerner or rinther who's learned a northern accent can walk into Tuluk, pay 50 sids to get the tattoos, and yeah, I'm a Tuluki! Yup! Meanwhile I'll just beam my secret spy stuff back to my Guild boss over the Way...

It works the other way, too. A Tuluki acting as a spy somewhere will be -forced- to cover his caste tattoos somehow, rather than just not getting them.

I'd think an untattooed Tuluki should need to be the special app, rather than the other way around.

Maybe the different clan tattoos are a different case, but the "major" tattoos - the blue and purple band and the commoner star - I see nothing wrong with making those hard to get. You either recieve them early in life, or you get them from the Faithful when you become a citizen, or you find someone illegal and shady willing to break the law and tattoo you.

Every citizen in Tuluk who wants to be a merchant, a thief, or an assassin wastes the Templarate's time already. May as well start bringing in the babies too. Besides, it's a good excuse for the Inquisition to "meet the people", huh? This way they know who you are right from birth.

[Larrath]

By themselves, no, the tattoos aren't anything special.

But now people can learn to speak like a northerner. Who knows if people will be able to imitate accents perfectly, but if they can, some southerner or rinther who's learned a northern accent can walk into Tuluk, pay 50 sids to get the tattoos, and yeah, I'm a Tuluki! Yup! Meanwhile I'll just beam my secret spy stuff back to my Guild boss over the Way...

This is realistic and fine.  Trust mansa.  I mean, me.  Trust me.  Larrath.  Not mansa.  Trust Larrath.  Yes.

It works the other way, too. A Tuluki acting as a spy somewhere will be -forced- to cover his caste tattoos somehow, rather than just not getting them.

Sure.  And if the spy doesn't want to get executed just because the templars asked to see his hands, he won't have those tattoos.  People aren't stupid.

I'd think an untattooed Tuluki should need to be the special app, rather than the other way around.
I think that's unneccesary, just like having a 'rinthi with a normal Allanaki accent.  Rare, but perfectly realistic and doable without staff help.  Why should the staff waste their time over this?

Maybe the different clan tattoos are a different case, but the "major" tattoos - the blue and purple band and the commoner star - I see nothing wrong with making those hard to get. You either recieve them early in life, or you get them from the Faithful when you become a citizen, or you find someone illegal and shady willing to break the law and tattoo you.

Every citizen in Tuluk who wants to be a merchant, a thief, or an assassin wastes the Templarate's time already. May as well start bringing in the babies too. Besides, it's a good excuse for the Inquisition to "meet the people", huh? This way they know who you are right from birth.

Tuluk is a city of around 500,000 people.  Let's say that, out of this figure, maybe two thousands don't have caste tattoos.  There can't be more than, at the very most, one thousand templars in all of Tuluk.  Giving licenses to thieves and assassins gives the templars control.  Hitting a baby with a rubber stamp five times a day does not.

Sorry, man, but no.  Caste tattoos should definitely be accessible.  Tuluk doesn't use super-magick-enhanced inks and tattooists for their caste as far as I'm aware, and even if they did Allanak would be able to mimick it.  I somehow doubt Muk Utep would waste his truly rare and unique magicks (rare enough that Tektolnes won't be able to copy) to enhance some ink.

[Seeker]

Getting caste tattoos later in life should not be an easy affair.  Essentially they are the keys to admittance into Tuluki society.

Wrong.  You forget that Tulukis add caste tattoos all the time - they simply start with the neckband and the six-pronged star (or some other 'base' tattoo)

I was not precise enough.  I was only referring to those specific tattoos you mentioned.  And we both agree that all PCs "start with" those commoner case tattoos if they are a citizen.

I think the best set-up should be to have the commoner caste tattoos automagically slapped on the PC at creation if they point to Tuluk from the Hall of Kings, and have any modifications made by the rare IMM intervention.

I don't think that it's worth it to make such minor things require a special application or a wish to remove tattoos.

I just see it is a bigger deal than you.  I'm not telling you how it is.  I'm just trying to refine my own understanding, by offering a nonstaff opinion for discussion. The way I believe its documented, presented on the GDB by staff, and played out when I have been through the northlands, citizenship is a pretty important deal.

The caste tattoos artist should be pulled out of the easily accessible areas of the city completely.  I would have two places where the caste tattoos might be applied to an already existing PC later in his life:  one, completely under the Faithful's control, and the other.... someplace very unlawful.

Do we want commoners going back and forth through the Templar's Quarter in Tuluk because they just joined the Byn and want a tattoo?Nonsense.

We already agree that characters born in the northlands have their commoner caste tattoos before play time, so someone getting a new one seems like a big deal to me.  A PC Faithful might do it.  The NPC tattooist already placed might be coded to only work if the character buying a commomer caste tattoo (the star and the band) has his "citizen of:" flag set to "Tuluk", perhaps.  There are other possibilities than the forced long march.

Seeker

[Seeker]

Yea. Even if that was the case.
I am sure Tek's minions have a book of every used northern caste tattoo known to them, including the original, confiscated tattoo (including skin) off of a commoner that had it.

Probably, but they aren't handing them out to every person in Allanak who walks up with fifty 'sids to their perpetually open stand in the Bazaar.

Seeker

[Larrath]

Getting caste tattoos later in life should not be an easy affair.  Essentially they are the keys to admittance into Tuluki society.

Wrong.  You forget that Tulukis add caste tattoos all the time - they simply start with the neckband and the six-pronged star (or some other 'base' tattoo)

I was not precise enough.  I was only referring to those specific tattoos you mentioned.  And we both agree that all PCs "start with" those commoner case tattoos if they are a citizen.

I agree that most Tuluki citizens will have their caste tattoos.  Some will not - they could have a mutation that prevents them, or they could have even lost it to some wound or sickness.  Hell, they might even be missing the wrist where it should go!  Or they never got their tattoo at all for some sinister reason.

I think the best set-up should be to have the commoner caste tattoos automagically slapped on the PC at creation if they point to Tuluk from the Hall of Kings, and have any modifications made by the rare IMM intervention.

I don't think that it's worth it to make such minor things require a special application or a wish to remove tattoos.

I just see it is a bigger deal than you.  I'm not telling you how it is.  I'm just trying to refine my own understanding, by offering a nonstaff opinion for discussion. The way I believe its documented, presented on the GDB by staff, and played out when I have been through the northlands, citizenship is a pretty important deal.

Citizenship is a big deal.  This does not mean that a Tuluki who wants to help the Faithful hit Allanak by sneaking in there and reporting would be stupid enough to get two tattoos in very visible locations that identify him as a northern spy.

The caste tattoos artist should be pulled out of the easily accessible areas of the city completely.  I would have two places where the caste tattoos might be applied to an already existing PC later in his life:  one, completely under the Faithful's control, and the other.... someplace very unlawful.

Do we want commoners going back and forth through the Templar's Quarter in Tuluk because they just joined the Byn and want a tattoo?Nonsense.

We already agree that characters born in the northlands have their commoner caste tattoos before play time, so someone getting a new one seems like a big deal to me.  A PC Faithful might do it.  The NPC tattooist already placed might be coded to only work if the character buying a commomer caste tattoo (the star and the band) has his "citizen of:" flag set to "Tuluk", perhaps.  There are other possibilities than the forced long march.

We agree that most of them do it.  Making the NPC tattooist only give the neck-band (a 'nakker gone to live in Tuluk could still get the star tattoo - it simply means he was born commoner) seems like a good idea at first, but I don't think I want NPCs to have such omniscience.  What, my PC can't bribe him or tell him I was a spy that had to get a southern accent and couldn't get a tattoo so far, or do some other thing?  I don't think it should be limited this way.

I think that southerners posing as Tulukis and becoming spies, especially now with the new accent code, is a good thing.  I don't think Tuluki caste tattoos are impossible to reproduce - in fact, I think they're quite simple.  I think that people abusing the caste tattoos should be reported and dealt with by the staff.
I don't think we need to make this a special app any more than a 'rinthi with a normal Allanaki accent.

[JohnGalt]

Larrath all the things you mentioned are rare exceptions.  Code should reflect the general rule.  In general PC's that are born and raised in Tuluk should have these tattoos, to not have one would make you suspicious.  Honestly, these are a big deal.  Think of it this way...

A Templar arrests you for stealing.  You have no caste tattoo.  He decides to execute you, as a foriegner, rather than use some lesser punishment because he figures you're tribal scum or an Allanaki sympathizer.  If you had that caste tattoo, he would have good reason to believe you're a citizen and might be more lenient.

The same is true for MANY situations.

I am not saying that every character who starts in Tuluk *must* start with one of these tattoos, but it should be a choice, and that choice should have consequences rather than be something that goes unnoticed for potentially OOC reasons.  Similar to choosing to use the nosave option or not.  You choose not to start with a caste tattoo expect to deal with the potential consequences of that choice.

[Seeker]

Larrath, you said a bunch of cool things that I agree with, then:

..I don't think it should be limited this way.

That's the crux of it.  A disagreement of opinion. I think it already should be.


Seeker

[Jherlen]

I agree that most Tuluki citizens will have their caste tattoos.  Some will not - they could have a mutation that prevents them, or they could have even lost it to some wound or sickness.  Hell, they might even be missing the wrist where it should go!  Or they never got their tattoo at all for some sinister reason.

Most of those reasons seem fairly contrived.  The vast, vast majority of PCs would be physically capable of bearing the tattoos. And even if -both- your hands are cut off (how are you playing a PC if that's the case), everybody is going to have a neck to place the band on. Let's not have "skin mutations that don't let me wear tattoos" become the new mutes as far as spying goes.

Citizenship is a big deal.  This does not mean that a Tuluki who wants to help the Faithful hit Allanak by sneaking in there and reporting would be stupid enough to get two tattoos in very visible locations that identify him as a northern spy.

The impression I've got from docs and GDB is that Tulukis don't get a choice as to whether they're tattooed as commoners or not. I don't think it's a voluntary decision to wear the tattoo. My understanding was that every citizen of Tuluk is tattooed, and you aren't considered a citizen unless you wear them.

If that assumption is correct, then the only way an untattooed Tuluki citizen would get away with it is if he were specifically brought up and trained by the Faithful to be an infiltrator of something - and it's very likely they'd have people like that.

As for controlled access to the (basic commoner) caste tatttoos - while I wasn't being totally serious in saying that rubber stamping babies gives templars control, I still think it makes sense that they wouldn't just let anybody tattoo anybody. City-administered tattooes aren't exactly a difficult thing to set up, either. You don't need templars tattooing people themselves, just places with one junior Faithful Lady watching things while some slave militia keep order and slave tattooists ink people. Tuluk has plenty of slaves to do that. And yes, it doesn't appear that the tattoos are magickal or unreproducable. I'm sure the Allanak templarate could raise and train people tattooed like Tulukis in the same way the Tuluki templarate could raise and train untattooed ones. That's fine. Make people go to either PC templarate instead of an NPC who brands anybody with 50 sid.

Nothing in any of this debate has addressed why it makes sense that any person should just be able to walk up to a tattoo artist and get painted up to look Tuluki, when nearly all citizens would have have their tattoos from long before. It just seems silly, unreasonable, and suspicious. The various caste/Circle/organization tattoos might be inked often, but the basic tattoos that say "I am Tuluki", seem fairly constant. You either got them because you were born in Tuluk, or you didn't, and if you didn't, then you either have a good reason to have them or you aren't a citizen. Again, this is assuming that wearing those tattoos isn't a voluntary choice a Tuluki would make, it's just something they all do. If the choice IS supposed to be voluntary, then I guess the tattoos should be treated as less important.

[Larrath]

The documentations don't say whether the caste tattoos are forced or not forced upon the commoners, but after having reread them I'm inclined to agree that it's not a voluntary choice.

...However I still would rather make the tattoos more accessible rather than force PCs to wear them.  Perhaps it could be an option when pointing at Tuluk - 'would you like standard commoner tattoos, Y/n?'.  I don't like automatic things like that, that's all.

[jstorrie]

Larrath, you say that some might forego getting their tattoos so that they could work as infiltrators for the Faithful. This really comes across as metagaming to me! Would they have decided at age two or three to become a career spy?

[JohnGalt]

Larrath, you say that some might forego getting their tattoos so that they could work as infiltrators for the Faithful. This really comes across as metagaming to me! Would they have decided at age two or three to become a career spy?

As I said earlier, make it a choice at character creation.  This will allow anyone to start in Tuluk without caste tattoos for whatever odd ball reason they dream up.  But it is a CHOICE and expect to pay the consequences of that choice, just like you would for choosing to play a race or class.