Your preference for PKing

[Forty Winks]

I've been wondering lately what others view about PKing. Seeing how sometimes I hear or see instances where a PK death could have been avoided and still have good roleplay, I was wondering what the reason might be for having to kill another PC, in the view of other players/characters.

And, what do people think of having objectives that rely upon PKing, whether or not it brings good roleplay?

[Larrath]

I PK whenever it fits my character to kill someone.  I openly admit that I kill NPCs far more often than I do PCs.
It's difficult for me to be casual about killing other characters and my characters tend to look for an alternative rather than just kill people, but in the end of the day, when you have to die, you have to die.

[Marauder Moe]

I think it depends on the character.  Unless you're a psychopath, you shouldn't be killing every PC you can.  This goes double for magickers/sorcerors/mindbenders who are strong enough to kill with the blink of an eye.  If you're an important socialite with money and connections, though, I see nothing wrong with having someone killed just for insulting you, especially since that kind of PK tends to involve more people than just yourself and the victim (ie assassins and bribed law enforcement).

Objective and plots that can end in the death of PC are much more exciting, in my opinion.  It's such a great Armageddon rush to know that someone out there is trying to KILL YOU.

[Templar of the Kanks]

Just for fun or seeing worthless blood of poor commoners who does not have enough coins.

[Oxidised Lizard]

I kill when my character would, though if either knocking unconscious or killing serve my purpose equally well, I will leave the PC unconscious, not dead.

[Fnord]

I try to do what my character would do, without thinking about it OOC. Often easier said than done, but I try.

[jhunter]

I PK whenever it fits my character to kill someone.

Agreed.
It all depends on the character I'm playing and what the situation is. If it is IC to kill them, then I don't let my OOC feelings make me do otherwise.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I'm somewhat desensitized to PKing. I don't mind at all when some one does it me, so I sometimes forget how it can affect other players.
See, I really, thoroughly enjoy making new characters. I've been playing a lot of Guild Wars recently, for example, and Guild Wars has a function that allows you to instantly create a max-level, fully-developed character if you so choose, instead of starting from scratch. During a few hours of playing Guild Wars, I might go through about five or six of these characters, creating and deleting and recreating as I test out new appearances, skillsets and stratagems. I'm just a perfectionist oddball like that.
I get the same sort of enjoyment writing up a new character for Arm. I'm as eager to get back into the game as any, of course, but I look forward to the Mighty Mantis Head as an opportunity for a character with a better description, a more engaging background, more exciting objectives, more interesting quirks, and a new, mysterious skillset.
So, yeah.. this is an open invitation to kill any of my characters.
With that said, I do try to remember that not everbody loves playing God as much as I do. While I would not hesitate to kill a character for IC reasons, I do tend to make "nice" characters; ones that wouldn't kill unless absolutely neccesary.

[Maybe42or54]

I don't see it as "reverting to PK" I see it more as "A neccessary Evil, and a fun one."

[jmordetsky]

What happened to the "I kill n00bs" option?

[Maybe42or54]

Where is the "Whenever I get an easy chance" Option?

[jmordetsky]

Where is the "Whenever I get an easy chance" Option?

Valid point.

[RunningMountain]

I PK everbody regardless of whether my character would or not, how come that's not a pole option?

[Malifaxis]

There's no "Whenever the victim is mansa" option, either.

[Forty Winks]

Well, if you know the character being played is controlled by mansa, wouldn't that be a reason to PK? I think that option fits into all the catagories mentioned so far.  :wink:

Anyways, does anyone else think that it's strange to have a RPI mud that has most of it's playerbase into PKing? Maybe I'm reading that poll wrong, but it seems the emphasis upon extending enjoyable plots to as many people involved and letting PCs enjoy their character is a rather small percent when compared to getting the thrill of a dagger up someones back. Maybe I should start a poll on which kind of plots people enjoy: the plot with 3 people invovled, or the plot with 8+ people invovled.  :roll:

[amoeba]

Anyways, does anyone else think that it's strange to have a RPI mud that has most of it's playerbase into PKing? Maybe I'm reading that poll wrong, but it seems the emphasis upon extending enjoyable plots to as many people involved and letting PCs enjoy their character is a rather small percent when compared to getting the thrill of a dagger up someones back.

I think it's as much an indication of the people that read the GDB and fill out polls.

I voted the third option.  It's easy to rationalize a reason to kill.  I like plots, deep meaty stories.  The person that got away and is after -your- blood is so much more fun than a wham, bam , kill you ma'am.  :twisted:

[Seeker]

Of my PK's, I wish that several had narrowly escaped.  

Looking back on it, it would have been much cooler if those few had come back later into my PC's story more aware, burning with hate, and all ready to have another go 'round.

The rest just didn't suffer long enough before I closed the curtain on them.


Seeker

[Agent_137]

I think there are lots of PKs that are inefficient uses of material, espescially by those in power.

Why have some one killed when you can enslave them/turn them to spy, etc?

Just doesn't seem practically, ICly.

But the, as machiavelli said, "IF you are to injure some one, injure them so completely they may never strike back."

So, if I have power and are simply wielding it and are not threatened, I would refrain from PKs and think up more interesting and more effecient alternatives from both an IC and an OOC standpoint. But if I am TAKING power, then most often a PK would be necessary to prevent a knife in the back in a few RL months.

[Rindan]

I kill whenever my character would kill.  It is a simple enough policy that I think everyone should follow.  That said, I reconize that as the player, I control the luck of my character to a large extent.  My character might try his damndest to kill someone, but there have been times when I had my character screw up and let someone escape.  We can't be perfect all the time.  When do I have my character's botch a kill?  If someone role plays well and tries to draw out the scene I am a lot more likely to decide that on this day my character fails to get between them and the door.

[Rhyden]

Ok, this is how I PK.

Kill a noob.

Ok. Now that you have some starting 'sids, drop them anywhere on any busy road way. Leave them there and leave the room, but keep a careful watch on the room for your prey (helps if your character is sneaky). Once somebody walks by, jump out at them with your previously poisoned weapon and make sure to hit them.

Here's the tricky part. They're most likely going to run. That's why it helps if you have your uber night-knights of noob-doom stationed along the road side or if you're a fighty kind of character.

Once you've attacked them. Repeat. Add some emotes and stuff to flavor it up and you should be done in a few minutes. Simmer. Ok, you should be done by now. All you gotta do is get all body and toss that nekkid corpse off to the side.

:mrgreen:

[LauraMars]

Ok, this is how I PK.

Kill a noob.

Glad I didn't meet you when I first logged on, mister.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Just a quick something to add...
I'd far rather die to a PC than to gortok #594 or from "you try to climb up, but slip" or from Xygax's "slay all".

[Oxidised Lizard]

Where's the option:
"I kill Halaster, before he kills me."
or:
"I never get a chance to PK or be PKed, I suicide all my characters before Halasturd can kill them."
:?:

[Yokunama]

"Whenever there is a good, solid, IC reason"

I really do not PK new PCs, because it really brings things they had for that character to a complete, sudden stop. Also, I'd like to give the player behind the character a chance to roleplay with their character. Out of the time I've been playing here, only two PCs died to my fingertips and my character's blade.

[Note] I'm not a fan of mass PKing

[Asnoboy]

Well, i guess it's "kill just when it fits IC, regardless if it's a NPC or PC".

[joyofdiscord]

Anyways, does anyone else think that it's strange to have a RPI mud that has most of it's playerbase into PKing?

PK and RP are two acronyms that aren't mutually exclusive, not by a long shot.  People who think OMG, PK is bad RP are probably used to pseudo-RP muds where RP means sitting in the tavern to gab, while PK is what the loony H&Sers do with no reason outside the tavern.  In Arm, killing another character isn't "PK," it's murder.  Or execution.  Or assassination.  Or an unfortunate accident.  Or revenge.  Or a crime of passion.  Above all, it is, or should always be, at least, RP.  I don't think most players are in it for the rush of killing.

If it's IC for a character to kill another, I want them to do it.  That said, Rindan's idea about deciding your char makes a mistake ICly and gives someone a chance to live is a great one.  Your character should do what is IC, but that doesn't mean you can't bring the world alive and have your char trip over a branch when he's chasing someone.

What I wouldn't want to see is a character ICly saying "All right, I'll let you live," when it's not IC for that character.  No matter what the motivation.  Players whose characters are killed go on to make new characters.  Roleplay and interaction don't die when a character does.

[Forty Winks]

What I wouldn't want to see is a character ICly saying "All right, I'll let you live," when it's not IC for that character. No matter what the motivation. Players whose characters are killed go on to make new characters. Roleplay and interaction don't die when a character does.

I agree, but what I mean is that, while you might have a reason to PK (assassinate, murder, or whatever you wish to call) just because you have a reason to shouldn't always dictate if you do or not. While there will be cases when it would ICly reasonable to kill someone, if there are other possibilities besides PKing, would that not be a better alternative than to end someones character if by allowing that character to live furthers a plotline, no matter how small that plotline might become? The thing with PKing is that it will -end- that character's story, which in most cases cuts short potential plot-lines or ongoing plotlines that could be surrounding that character. While people can always revert to making new characters, that new character that is generated will -never- be the exact same as that old character (unless you purposefully make it so) and be included in the same plotlines, because if that was so, you'd have a favorite character every time you made a new char. I think what's important to realize is the impact that PKing actually does, and knowing that the person you are killing -could- be the one who initiates the take-down of Allanak (not that big, but I think you get the point).

And while I believe PKing should be the last alternative, I completely agree that there are times when PKing is necesary, to either continue or create a plot. But, simply PKing someone simply because your character has a good reason to (profit or maxing skills, whatever) seems to me as more a H&S type of mentality.

-FW

[Nao]

I kind of agree with FW.

I don't think it's good to seize the opportunity to kill someone every time you can think of an ic reason to do so... Because usually, there would be possibilities that are exactly as ic for your character as killing, I'd prefer that possibility over killing. Killing a character kills rp, it ends all the plotlones evolving around that character. Main the character instead of killing, torture him, use him for whatever, make him beg for his life, cut his nose off... All those leave the current plots open AND create new ones, and they are probably more cruel  :twisted: and interesting than just killing off someone because icly you do have a reason, but you also have a reason to do anything off the above to him instead. More rp is involved with letting someone live under certain conditions that the character  would not like (but the player would probably enjoy) that just typing 'kill man' and *beep*, that's it.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes a character just has to die... But unneccessary pk sucks, mostly for the player of the chracter that sees everything ended for something done for the sole purpose of having a little fun pking the character, but also for the rest of the gameworld cause all the plotlines around that character are lost. Sure, that person will make a new character, but it takes time to build stuff up again. And it's frustrating to have other people carry out some fun at your cost, just because one out of several ic solutions is murder.

[X-D]

Rindan

I kill whenever my character would kill. It is a simple enough policy that I think everyone should follow. That said, I reconize that as the player, I control the luck of my character to a large extent. My character might try his damndest to kill someone, but there have been times when I had my character screw up and let someone escape. We can't be perfect all the time. When do I have my character's botch a kill?If someone role plays well and tries to draw out the scene I am a lot more likely to decide that on this day my character fails to get between them and the door.

Rindan summed it up for me.

[halfhuman]

Sometimes people are nasty. There are no rules against being mean to others that you meet, be it cheating, stealing, killing, swindling, or otherwise making a fool out of them as long as the meanness is in-character (IC).
Complaints of unfairness on the part of other players will not be given an audience. If you think another character was mean to you, you're most likely right.

I'm gonna stick with that.

I love a good PK, though I'm rarely ever on the giving end of one.  I've been let off when I was undeserving, and I've been PK'd after multiple repentances for the most mundane of offences. But I haven't (as far as I can remember) had a bad PK. I always tried to stretch them out, and was usually obliged creating a good, long, fun scene that left me smiling. (and I never miss a chance to die in the Arena!  :twisted: )

I've had really, amazingly cool plots ruined by petty thuggery PKs. Not to be a cruel bastard, but I could care less how many plots I destroy with a PK, as long as I have a realistic reason to do so. Sure it's sad and I'm not gonna pretend like it doesn't irritate or dissapoint me when it happens to me, but at the end of the day it's a game with infinate retries. Find a better character concept and a thicker plot and try again.

For me, if I PK it's usually petty and not some master outlined plot involving warring factions or the like. My character's almost never ascend to a level of power where I can get away with maiming someone and letting them live, so for the vast majority of my characters I have no choice but to kill them and leave no witnesses.

I guess this does make me a cruel bastard.  :evil:

[eska]

I PK only for a good reason too.

You (OOC'ly) think:
"Hooray! There's another newb."

You  (IC'ly) think:
"Hmm, that fekker there seems to be new in the city and have lots of sid in his pack."

bs noob or sap noob..  :twisted:

Or.. You say the noob girl in sirihish:
"Hey, girlie. Wanna have mudsexx my uber-super-f me?"

Take her to the apartment, strip her and kill.   :twisted:

[Zharal]

Funny thing about PKing is, I dont have to look for players to slay.  Give enough time some idiot will put himself/herself in a position that warrents me removing there head.  Or in more cases then not, paying someone else to do it..  Why get your hands dirty when theres so many low lifes out there to do it for you.. cheap.

[Noah]

What I wouldn't want to see is a character ICly saying "All right, I'll let you live," when it's not IC for that character. No matter what the motivation. Players whose characters are killed go on to make new characters. Roleplay and interaction don't die when a character does.

I agree, but what I mean is that, while you might have a reason to PK (assassinate, murder, or whatever you wish to call) just because you have a reason to shouldn't always dictate if you do or not. While there will be cases when it would ICly reasonable to kill someone, if there are other possibilities besides PKing, would that not be a better alternative than to end someones character if by allowing that character to live furthers a plotline, no matter how small that plotline might become? The thing with PKing is that it will -end- that character's story, which in most cases cuts short potential plot-lines or ongoing plotlines that could be surrounding that character. While people can always revert to making new characters, that new character that is generated will -never- be the exact same as that old character (unless you purposefully make it so) and be included in the same plotlines, because if that was so, you'd have a favorite character every time you made a new char. I think what's important to realize is the impact that PKing actually does, and knowing that the person you are killing -could- be the one who initiates the take-down of Allanak (not that big, but I think you get the point).

And while I believe PKing should be the last alternative, I completely agree that there are times when PKing is necesary, to either continue or create a plot. But, simply PKing someone simply because your character has a good reason to (profit or maxing skills, whatever) seems to me as more a H&S type of mentality.

-FW

I agreed with pretty much your entire post until I got to the last paragraph.  You said "But, simply PKing someone simply because your character has a good reason to (profit or maxing skills, whatever) seems to me as more a H&S type of mentality.".   I just fail to see how maxing skills is a "good reason", it seems more like an OOC thing to me.  I've known some dwarves that had a focus "to become the best blah blah in the known world..." but I've always thought that just to be a lame excuse to powergame.  Still, not a "good" reason.

"good" reason to me would be...  say you're a guard and you're protecting a wagon and it gets attacked by 2 NPCs and 2 PCs.  I probably wouldn't have even thought about which ones were players and which were NPCs.  It's quite simply my IC directive to kill the attackers.

Now say I was still a guard protecting a wagon and I saw in the distance a pair of riders wearing expensive silks, etc.  Would I ride off from the wagon I'm protecting to kill this pair?  No.  Sure, I could justify it in a chinsy-IC way by saying...  "they look unprotected and it looks like they have a lot of money and it's a savage world and I really need the money so I can go kill them now", but is it really a good IC reason?  No.

Maybe we're all interpreting the answers to the poll differently, but I believe most people who voted "whenever I have good reason"" means that when they truly, truly have a strong in-character reason (whether it's firm direction, ic necessity, etc.) that they will simply play out the scene as appropriate without saying "hold on, if you were an NPC I'd kill you but since I OOCly know it's a player behind you, I'm going to pretend I missed stabbing your back so you can escape and further your plot.".  They didn't vote for that simply because they enjoy killing whenever they can justify it with a half-baked IC "reason".  So I disagree with the idea that it's a H&S mentality.  I still agree with many of the points that you make.

[Pantoufle]

I used to agree with the sentiment that killing a player halts all related plotlines.  Not anymore.

Killing a character can actually create plotlines.  Think about it.

And frankly, I would find a torture/maiming scene, as alternative to PKilling me, either offensive and vulgar or just plain boring.  Look, just kill my character and be over with it, please (I'll gladly return the favor).  Make your enemy into a spy instead of killing them, you say?  Why would I turn someone I want dead into a spy, of all things?  Clearly I don't trust them if I want them dead.  They're the last person I would turn into a spy.

There's always room for killing in this game.  What I find most unnerving are the -- what I call -- Impenetrables.  You know the type.  A high profile character that walks around with umpteen NPC-soldiers-on-a-stick to encapsule them in a nearly invincible forcefield, shielding them not only from attack but theft as well.  That shit bores the hell outta me.  I'd much prefer to see high profile roles get slain rather than simply retired.

[jhunter]

Sure, I could justify it in a chinsy-IC way by saying... "they look unprotected and it looks like they have a lot of money and it's a savage world and I really need the money so I can go kill them now", but is it really a good IC reason? No.

Nothing cheesy about that. In the real world people kill each other over money, drugs...etc.... All sorts of things that wouldn't necessarily constitute a "good reason" to those that wouldn't do such a thing. Seems like the person who did the killing thought it plenty good of a reason.

So long as it's IC it doesn't matter to me. Some people seem to think they have to do something wrong in order for their killing to be justified.

It sounds to me like some people are saying: "As long as I don't ever do anything to anybody, no one has a good reason to kill me."
Bullshit.
You are potentially in someone's way of getting what they want and that's reason enough realistically, for someone to want you dead. It just depends on whether or not the person you are a potential obstacle or danger to would go far enough to kill you.

In which case I believe it would be the solution to more people on Zalanthas than it is in the real world.

Killing a character can actually create plotlines. Think about it.

Got that right. I've been involved in some interesting stuff that's come about because of the death of a pc. Some of the most interesting stuff I've been involved in to date.

[Agent_137]

i think it has a lot to do with the OOC reason.

Is it OOCly distasteful for you to kill another PC, but ICly makes perfect sense? Good, kill.

Is it OOCly fun for you to kill another PC, and ICly you can come up with a half-decent reason? Rude, please spare them.


With something such as PKing that can so easily ruin some one else's fun, please make sure you are doing it for the strictest IC reasons only, and not just having fun at the expense of others with an IC excuse.

[Armaddict]

I completely disagree with the sentiment that alternatives should be created out of the blue to keep from killing someone because it happens to be a PC.

Yes, it sucks to lose a character.  Yes, PK battles often result in flaming and calling the other player a twink because they didn't emote often, or they subdued you and knocked you out to kill you.

Quite simply, I think coming up with ways not to kill someone just because they are another player is going into the OOC realm and harming the purity of the game.  I like courtesy to other players.  But part of that courtesy is keeping the gaming experience here as IC as possible.

If someone gives you a reason to kill them, and the chance is presented to do so, and there is no -immediate- use that -your character- would have for them...why let them live?  What IC sense does that make, unless your character is a pacifist or somesuch?

Just my thoughts.  I know I've voiced them before, but I figured you guys could bear listening to my psycho babble again.

[jhunter]

With something such as PKing that can so easily ruin some one else's fun, please make sure you are doing it for the strictest IC reasons only, and not just having fun at the expense of others with an IC excuse.

I agree with that part completely. That's the difference between it being killing for an IC reason and killing for OOC reasons.

I don't think it ruins fun though, sure it's upsetting at times but hey, new pcs are alot of fun too. No matter how much fun I'm having with a pc, I'm always thinking up new things to try out in the future.

[LoD]

I generally don't PK very much with my characters.

I've had one notable exception, with whom I PK'd more people than all of my previous characters put together.  The reason for that particular spike was because it was my goal to create a non-magickal "villain" PC that provided people with tense and potentially deadly RP situations.

This is not to say that I created the character to PK others, but that it happened many times over due to the nature of the game.  I would almost always first give the other player an attempt to get out alive.  Most often that situation was handing over about 50 'sid or something worth that much if they didn't happen to have that much money on them.

I will generally try to shy away from PK'ing if I can help it, or at least make the death interesting.  I agree that you shouldn't avoid PK if it's realistic for your character to move forward on it, however, people often rationalize PK'ing, so I don't consider rationalizing -not- PK'ing someone to be any worse.

The game is often more interesting with living adversaries.

-LoD

[IntuitiveApathy]

I agree that you shouldn't avoid PK if it's realistic for your character to move forward on it, however, people often rationalize PK'ing, so I don't consider rationalizing -not- PK'ing someone to be any worse.

I completely agree with this sentiment (which others have echoed).  We're here to RP a character in a dynamic gameworld that happens to also contain other PCs, not OOCly RP with those other players.  While OOCly RP'ing with other players is a nice bonus when it happens, I don't think it should ever take precedence over your character's motivations and subsequent actions.

This isn't to say that I think when a player of a guard-type character lets a thief go, that this is necessarily wrong.  But there are two types of 'excuses' a player could use to avoid PK'ing another PC and both have already been talked about: physical, gameworld reasons.. and the psyche of the character itself.  

If the physical circumstances of the gameworld permit an 'excuse' like the guard character got ran over by a speeding argosy before they could get to the door (a joke, lest you kids take that seriously.. though who says it couldn't happen?).. then sure, why not play it that way?  That could be fun too and create all sorts of plots and things, as long as it fits okay.  But if the abilities of the guard are such that the thief shouldn't get away most times, and there's nothing in the gameworld that should prevent that, then that's what should happen.  

But as far as the psyche of the character - unless there's a serious, genuine IC reason that character wants to -purposely- let the thief go (and there could be an infinite number of these, certainly), I don't think it should ever happen for some chintsy made-up reason so you as the player can OOCly let the other PC go - for whatever OOC reason, plots, rivalry, or what have you.

[Anonymous]

[I agreed with pretty much your entire post until I got to the last paragraph.  You said "But, simply PKing someone simply because your character has a good reason to (profit or maxing skills, whatever) seems to me as more a H&S type of mentality.".   I just fail to see how maxing skills is a "good reason", it seems more like an OOC thing to me.  I've known some dwarves that had a focus "to become the best blah blah in the known world..." but I've always thought that just to be a lame excuse to powergame.  Still, not a "good" reason.

"good" reason to me would be...  say you're a guard and you're protecting a wagon and it gets attacked by 2 NPCs and 2 PCs.  I probably wouldn't have even thought about which ones were players and which were NPCs.  It's quite simply my IC directive to kill the attackers.

How about if I said "BUT, PKing someone SIMPLY because your character has a "good" reason to ([reasons such as] profit or maxing skills) Seems to me as more of a H&S mentality.  :roll:

By stressing and adding a few words, I think what I really ment to say becomes more obvious. In the view of the player, if the player finds an OOC way of persuading him/her character, a reason to PK can always be 'good' enough to follow through with it.

Maybe we're all interpreting the answers to the poll differently, but I believe most people who voted "whenever I have good reason"" means that when they truly, truly have a strong in-character reason (whether it's firm direction, ic necessity, etc.) that they will simply play out the scene as appropriate without saying "hold on, if you were an NPC I'd kill you but since I OOCly know it's a player behind you, I'm going to pretend I missed stabbing your back so you can escape and further your plot.".  They didn't vote for that simply because they enjoy killing whenever they can justify it with a half-baked IC "reason".  So I disagree with the idea that it's a H&S mentality.  I still agree with many of the points that you make.

In those terms, I agree with you as well, up to a certain point.  I've already stated that I believe there are certain times when PKing is necesary, BUT, the manner in how you go about in accomplishing that can in most cases completely change the impact that death might have on the game world. If you attempt to extend a simple PK into a plot, there's alot more potential for roleplay and enjoyment than if you took the first opportunity you got to elliminate that PC, which ultimately accomplishes very little in the end. Don't get me wrong though, I still think PKs should be done as a last roleplay option, but if done in a well-planned and thoughtful manner, you could turn practically any PK into a complete story.

Taking Noah's second guard example, I think the guard wanting to go and kill a few people with silky clothes while he's on duty is okay on a certain level. By taking it in one direction and using that goal in mind to get more 'sid or practice your skills would be taking it too far. On the other hand, you can easily make that potential PK into a greater story by simply waiting for a more opportune moment. Perhaps the guard will decide to hire a mercenary to learn up on these "merchants", and perhaps even try to persuade a couple of his 'friends' to lay an ambush for the silk-clap folks when an opportunity presents itself. And, even if the guard is able to bring these merchants down, what would be the reason to PK them? Why not simply mug these individuals and let them live another day to get stolen from again?

Personally, I think there's only a few limited reasons to PK someone, and those are only when allowing someone to continue living will prevent a plot from continuing. Yes, I stressed that word for a reason. The reason I say that is because if a PK ends a plot, then there would be no real reason to murder that character other than to further your own character. There can likely be some exceptions, but from the top of my head, I find that there will always be some other way to either generate a new plot, or continue an existing plot besides murder.

After having said that, PK on a large scale such as battles and scirmishes are good, and are even an essential part of Zalanthas for its own various reasons. If there are more experienced characters due to the careful planning of "assassins", "murderers" and "thugs", these large-scale battles will become an even better experience than the spam-slaughter that might typically be seen. On both notes, leaving PKs as the last option benefits the game, and likely even you as the player.

[Forty Winks]

^The above was me.

I completely disagree with the sentiment that alternatives should be created out of the blue to keep from killing someone because it happens to be a PC.

Yes, it sucks to lose a character. Yes, PK battles often result in flaming and calling the other player a twink because they didn't emote often, or they subdued you and knocked you out to kill you.

Quite simply, I think coming up with ways not to kill someone just because they are another player is going into the OOC realm and harming the purity of the game. I like courtesy to other players. But part of that courtesy is keeping the gaming experience here as IC as possible.

If someone gives you a reason to kill them, and the chance is presented to do so, and there is no -immediate- use that -your character- would have for them...why let them live? What IC sense does that make, unless your character is a pacifist or somesuch?

It's unfortunate that you -completely- disagree, and because of that choice, I think it's limiting your thought to that opinion alone, and thus the manner in which your character behaves.

First of all, if you as a player attempts to limit PKs to the times when it is essential for a plot, there will be very little to no flaming and calling names due to the fact that, 1) there are less such PKs and 2) The PKs that are made will be a result of a plot, and many plots continue through the direct actions of the players involved, meaning that character would have chosen his own fate.

And your next point, that choosing a different route besides the initial destructive thoughts of your character, is bordering on OOC decisions? While I agree to that thought, there are -many- choices that you as a character might make throughout your character's life that is due to OOC considerations. How and when an RPT is set is due to OOC considerations for the RL schedules of players. Where your character decides to go for his free-time is through OOC considerations of where you as the player will have the most enjoyment. You can even take this to the extent that your own character is created as s/he is due to OOC considerations of your playability and preference. If you wish to stick to your statement, you'll be saying that you, as well as a very large portion of the playerbase, will be "harming the purity of the game" by doing these things. These are necessary decisions made for the enjoyment of the players invovled, and in the same manner, limiting PKs to the special cases they are required will help in adding to the excitement and addiction of the game when surrounded in a good plot.

If someone gives you a reason to kill them, and the chance is presented to do so, and there is no -immediate- use that -your character- would have for them...why let them live? What IC sense does that make, unless your character is a pacifist or somesuch?

I agreed with what you were saying up until you said "the chance is presented to do so". After that, you only refute your own point. Although "that someone" might have given you a reason to kill them, why would your character need to kill the character if there is no use for that character? You see, that is a large part of the reason why I started this thread. You kill a character simply because there is no need for that character on an IC and OOC point of view. Do you see what you actually said with that line? You made a reason up (that the PC gave you a reason to kill them) and since that sounded "good" to you, you decided it would be alright if you PKed him. Why let that character live? Because by allowing that character to live, you allow other plots to continue, and you create a new plot in the process. The real question should be, Why kill that character, and the answer shouldn't just be "because s/he gave me reason to".     :evil:  That would -definitely- be H&S mentality. I would ask, Why do you play Armageddon, if you said that.  

Anyways, while I continue to say "you should try to PK as a last option to further or create a new plot", I'll have to admit there's one condition that I fail to leave out. (<--- that's right, I'm going to challenge my own thinking, folks  :wink: ) Alot of how well you create a PK opportunity into a great and interesting story depends alot on your own ability to continue and generate plots. If you care little for starting your own plots, then I find it difficult to pull through with other options besides PKing. In other words, sometimes PKing really -is- the only option that you as a player can think of. If that is truly the case, then hopefully time and experience will help, and the roleplay and enjoyment that you get from PKing that character is as much as you expect it to be. But even after saying that, I can see that if done with a sincere reason to PK, that in itself will be enough to generate a plot.

History is made at night.
Character is what you are in the dark.
                                John Worfin
A story is, quite simply, a search for one's identity.
                                Daryl Cooper

-FW

[Forty Winks]

[But as far as the psyche of the character - unless there's a serious, genuine IC reason that character wants to -purposely- let the thief go (and there could be an infinite number of these, certainly), I don't think it should ever happen for some chintsy made-up reason so you as the player can OOCly let the other PC go - for whatever OOC reason, plots, rivalry, or what have you.

Just wanted to add that I will have to agree with that as well, but in the example given, a guard never needs to -kill- a thief unless that thief actually attempts something stupid. If that ever happens, I feel it's perfectly alright to act on the decision of the thief's player. Dragging off to jail or just even to an alley to beat the thief up and rob -him- of his equipment would, in my opinion, be a much MUCH better reason than to outright slay him for getting caught. It seems people are taking it to two extremes when someone such as I say "try not to PK someone [and to add even more to that, "because plots and roleplay can be made"]".

[jhunter]

Plain and simple: If my pc's life is made safer or will survive longer, profit somehow by your pc's death and it's in my pc's character to eliminate yours...consider your pc dead.
Sure, I could let it drag out longer for OOC reasons. But I'm not fucking going to. I'm playing my role, if you don't like it because I'm playing a pc that has an IC reason to kill you and they do...tough shit.

say (in a really whiny voice) I was an ass to that guy and he caught me alone in an alley and killed my character! That's bullshit! *sniffle* *whine*  :roll:

[Revelations]

*blink* I guess if you like it that way... :?  People will have different approaches to how they play, and that is just another of them. Still, If you're going to be that kill-happy, why not just go to a combat mud and kill to your content there? At least the characters there get to live another after running into -your- character.

[amoeba]

Plain and simple: If my pc's life is made safer or will survive longer, profit somehow by your pc's death and it's in my pc's character to eliminate yours...consider your pc dead.
Sure, I could let it drag out longer for OOC reasons. But I'm not fucking going to. I'm playing my role, if you don't like it because I'm playing a pc that has an IC reason to kill you and they do...tough shit.

say (in a really whiny voice) I was an ass to that guy and he caught me alone in an alley and killed my character! That's bullshit! *sniffle* *whine*  :roll:

From a former post of yours concerning d-elves:

That doesn't necessarily mean that they are just bloodthirsty newbs. Maybe the D-elf is IC'ly bloodthirsty for human/halfbreed blood or just wants to screw with the 'stupid round-ears'? Sure, they might risk the wrath of others, but maybe they have such low regard for round-ear traditions/law that they don't care. Another reason might be that the person they attack has no idea who they are or what tribe they belong to.

That's as much excuse and feeble attempt at justification as someone making a pc that's a psychopathic murderer just to pk.

It is always easy to make it in your pc's character to kill, and in your prior post you seem to agree with this.  My point, kill when it is within reason to do so, but don't just find a reason.

[jhunter]

I don't get your point. Never anywhere did I say it was okay to make up a reason just to kill someone. I make my pcs kill only when they have good cause. In that other post I'm complaining about people killing only for the sake of killing. I'm of the opinion that both posts agree with each other on the stance that killing for the sake of killing is wrong and if it is actually IC to then do it.

[jhunter]

*blink* I guess if you like it that way... :?  People will have different approaches to how they play, and that is just another of them. Still, If you're going to be that kill-happy, why not just go to a combat mud and kill to your content there? At least the characters there get to live another after running into -your- character.

Whatever. You call it want you want. I never said anything about killing for the sake of killing. What I said was if it is IC for my pc to kill someone then I will fucking do it. I think of myself as RP happy. In the sense that I'm not going to act OOCly to avoid killing someone that my pc would and I'm not going to kill someone unless my pc would do it.

I've actually only pk'd three times in all the time I've played and I've played much much longer than I've had this GDB account.

Let me guess, you're one of those that considers anyone who pks at all kill happy?

[amoeba]

I don't get your point. I make my pcs kill only when they have good cause. In that other post I'm complaining about people killing only for the sake of killing. I'm of the opinion that both posts agree with each other on the stance that killing for the sake of killing is wrong and if it is actually IC to then do it.

I think that is the point. You may not be getting the point.  People aren't saying don't kill, they are saying don't find every feeble reason to kill.  I'm sure that not only people who play d-elves guilty of this behaviour.

[jhunter]

Actually no. I believe that is exactly what some people are saying. Look for a reason, any feeble reason to let a pc live that your pc would kill. This is what I'm arguing against. This is just as bad as making up a reason to kill someone.

[amoeba]

Actually no. I believe that is exactly what some people are saying. Look for a reason, any feeble reason to let a pc live that your pc would kill. This is what I'm arguing against. This is just as bad as making up a reason to kill someone.

Agreed. There are always choices to be made.  In some cases, death is a choice. What your character does is whatever is appropriate for that character, but as in life, there are choices.  IC choices should dictate. For instance, if you are an assassin (in carrer, not guild persay) I would expect you would kill a lot, but as you have said, in all your time you have only killed three times, it reasons that the non death choice is often the right one.  If you were an assassin that never killed, I'd think that would be stretching it, unless you were a real screwup of course.

[LoD]

I think what players often wrestle with is could vs. should.

There are many times when your character could kill another player.  All of the pieces are there; there's a justifiable reason and you have the opportunity.

What (I think) Amoeba is trying to argue is that some players are so wrapped up in whether they could kill someone that they don't consider if they should kill them.

Will the death of that character make the game better?  Will a story move forward or grow as a result?  Is it a critical part of your character's long term goals?  You can rationalize your actions to achieve any goal, but simply because you have a gun doesn't mean you have to fire it.  Check out a few of these examples, and if you'd classify them as someone killing because they 'could' or 'should'.

What I consider to be weak rationalizations for PK'ing:

1. I want your stuff.
2. You called me a name!
3. I hate all <insert race here so I can PK>
4. My goal is to be the best assassin evar, so I kill!
5. You disagreed with me in front of my woman! (played by a man).

These all seem like crutches to me, that allow players spoiling for a fight to test out their hard-earned scrab twinking skills when they're bored of trying to maintain a well rounded character with realistic goals for more than an hour.

These are often the people you see:

-Sneaking into the labyrinth to kill children and old men.
-Hunting the grasslands clean of critters.
-Ignoring any wound/strong blow during a sparring match
-Falling asleep immediately after being hurt below their regeneration
level before waking up "refreshed and ready to fight".
-Using emotes that don't make sense while "hidden".
-Stand up and insta-scan the room when 'someone' does anything.
-Insta-flee when "surrounded" by 5 people and told to halt.

I would encourage others (and often myself) to look at every potential PK situation from a couple different viewpoints, and not just my own selfish desire to kill.  There may be more entertaining and interesting outcomes by leaving the person alive, or at least by placing them into a situation where you get what you want through them making a sacrifice.

For example, I had a ranger character that would prowl the sands after people and ask them for a protection fee.  If they didn't pay up, I'd attack them and usually kill them because I was an efficient mo-fo.  But I thought that wasn't what I -wanted- to happen.  I -wanted- them to give up the money, live and go tell people about the bad mammajamma out in the desert to create a story.  Killing the people wasn't the solution.

So I started making rules for myself.  They refuse once, I leave and shoot them with a warning arrow.  Next time I see them and they refuse twice, I attack them, but don't chase if they flee.  The third time they refuse, all bets are off and they're pushing up cactii in the desert somewhere.  We shouldn't WANT to kill people unless it's absolutely necessary or it enhances the gameworld.  My guess is a lot of the PK's that happen don't fall into either of those two categories, and that's unfortunate.

-LoD

[SewerRat_inTheOpen]

If there is a good reason for my pc to kill, it will happen. There is no bother about whether the death will lead to more rp or less, disrupt a plot or make someone [oocily] upset.

Because in the desert [cities], there is no consideration of that, only survival.

There is no point for blatant pking, what fun is there for both pcs?

Someone upset you? Hire a couple of muscles to make sure he will be eating out a tube for a few months. I'm sure the byn does under-the-table kind of thing with enough money in for them, or some underlings wanting to suck up.

Self-defense is survival, the aim is to cripple the enemy. Best way, death. No point in allowing something to come back to hunt you, for no reason whatsoever.

Robberies, kidnapping, theft..  Doesn't seem to be much cause for pking. But it depends on the pysche of the perpetuator. He just want money and doesn't want to kill, he's kind of pyschotic and enjoys fresh blood on armor like some blood-lusted orc, he doesn't want victims alive to talk, he enjoys infamy and wants people to talk about the colour of his underwear. He was just being opportunistic when you came along and he doesn't really know what to do, kill or let live?

assassins: real -sneak in dark, stab stab death- assassins probably don't want a name for themselves. It's a means of survival, livelihood. Assassins die fast if too many people know what they are. So, real assassins probably don't sneak to the alleys now and then to kill someone. They rather remain anonymous and work for an outfit [someone]. If someone keeps going to the alley to kill, people will see and talk spreads, they die or become hired muscles. But since no one can have skills out of nowhere, even if they have backgrounds of killing, people have to kill -stab- something to practise.

Mistakes happen when people don't understand the game. People learn. Wait.

[Forty Winks]

Pk if it's ICly reasonable to PK. I think that's been agreed upon. What I'd like to say is that, don't simply make the PK a PK. Add a plot to the event of the PK to get others, or even just yourself and the victim involved and have fun. Is that not the purpose for roleplaying your character? That's as simple as you can make it.  

P.S. Ok, I'll add one more thing. Even though it's ICly reasonable to PK someone, why rush it? Get as much enjoyment out of that "victim" as possible, and then take him out, maybe even getting a new plot out of it. I find there's never a reason to PK someone (up to a certain critical point) as soon as possible.

[Maybe42or54]

If I attack them, I ain't gonna chase them down. And I can't chase them down since they spam flee away.

[Agent_137]

I don't think roleplaying has two shits to do with plots, personally.

roleplaying is playing out your character as he would act. Plots are just gravy, like l33t l00t is, or m4xxed skrillz.

So it's no surprise to me that PKs happen and aren't shyed away from in an RPI mud. It's because we have a high percentage of skilled roleplayers, not pansies who grew up on MUSH. :mrgreen:

Roleplay mimics life. Death is a part of life. So we take it in stride.

Don't get me wrong, though. If there is a sensible and IC alternative to killing someone, I'll do it. I typically don't play blood thirsty characters. Of course, someday I might make one, or one might turn into one. Then, well, you'd be out of luck.

[amoeba]

I don't think roleplaying has two shits to do with plots, personally.

roleplaying is playing out your character as he would act. Plots are just gravy, like l33t l00t is, or m4xxed skrillz.

As with any story, the characterization (roleplay) is only part.   You can be a great roleplayer, a character, or as some like it an "actor", but the problem is without a good story  the overall experience can be as interesting as three day old mashed potatoes. Bland and dry.

I hear a lot of chest thumping about roleplaying as if that was an end all. What about making the story (game) interesting as well?

[Revelations]

I hear a lot of chest thumping about roleplaying as if that was an end all. What about making the story (game) interesting as well?