Weapons and Armour on Zalanthas

[Comrade Canadia]

This is a long rant, so be warned.  And also, please recognise I'm a useless player.  I've greatly enjoyed this game for many years and as such, have become rather involved in it.  Because of that, I form opinions on how things should be done.  It's easy to be an armchair imm and tell people what is, and what is not appropriate in a game world they've spent  almost a decade and a half building.  So note I recognise my own hypocrisy here.  Still... I think discussions like this are valuable.  SO HERE I GO.

Well, since I thought the entire 'I hate sexism' thread went over well, I'm going to try to stimulate discussion on something I feel is detrimental to the sort of 'feel' of the game world.  There are basically two schools of thought when it comes to what to include in an open, massively multiplayer world like this.  One of them is 'Play what you want, use what you want within reason.'  the other is 'We need to narrowly define what is, and is not appropriate in order to build consistency and believability.'  I'm from the second school of thought.

Weapons and armour, since I feel they are part of the defining aesthetic of any fantasy world, are what I'm gonna attack here.

Armageddon's roots are in Dark Sun with some strong flavouring of Dune.  The Dune part I don't mind, the Dark Sun part - I do.  Dark Sun's world was based on the idea of taking western fantasy cliches, and twisting them.  This is cool, except that the basis is STILL in western fantasy.  The weapons and armour of Dark Sun, with a few exceptions, were the same weapons and armour you find in Forgotten Realms.  Just, uh, made of bone and obsidian instead of steel.

Why is this a bad thing?  I don't feel it's appropriate, and I feel it dilutes the aesthetic.  Armageddon tries very hard to be a fantasy world that's different from the bastard offspring of Tolkein - but we can't even set apart our weapons and armour.  If you look at the Player's Handbook for Dungeons and Dragons - every single freaking weapon listed there can be found in armag... just with 'steel' swapped for 'bone.'  We need to realise where some of these weapons are appropriate, and when others are not.

Armageddon's IC roots of an age long ago SOMEHOW attempts to rationalise  this... but in the end, it strikes me more as an excuse, than an explaination.  I don't care if your ancestors wore plate mail - it still doesn't make wearing silt horror in apparently the HOTTEST DESERT EVER any less suicidal, or a bone claymore any less of a ludicrous concept.

The heavy armour, perhaps above all else, is my greatest concern.  Desert cultures tend to COVER themselves in robes like abas - or wear practically nothing at all.  Covering yourself in the heaviest possible armour should, by all means, kill you.  And the 'Zalanthian people are superhumans' stuff, I don't buy.  I don't care how tough you are, you're going to die if you walk around in the equivalent of an oven in 150 degree weather.  I don't care how tough you are, if you live in this UBER DESERT you should dress and act like it.  What's the point of a harsh desert world if it doesn't actually affect roleplay at all?

Pieces of heavy armour?  Sure!  Remember those Greek gladiators?  Maybe a heavy shoulder piece, greaves and a shield?  Swank.  That works in hot weather.  A full suit?  NO.  Granted, players don't flock to this kind of armour all of the time, but it's still very common in the game world when... I truly don't think it should be.

Anyways, my point here is that armag has a two personalities.  One of them is the brutal, harsh desert world it claims to be.   Another one is sort of a random compilation of pre-industrial ideas from western Europe.  

Finally, I will alos note that over the years the game has done a great deal to drop a hefty chunk of the western Europe aesthetic.  Even still, there's a tremendous amount of it in game that should be addressed.  I have even more to say on specifics, but that can wait until people start flaming me for telling them how to play.

-Dave
-THERE I SAID IT

[Marauder Moe]

Valid points.  What would you have us do, though?

This IS a western (based in the United States, a western nation) fantasy (its not real) game.

On a side note: am I the only one who doesn't believe/agree/like it when people equate Armageddon to Dune?  Other than both involving a desert world (Arrakis is WAY harsher than Zalanthan wilderness, though) there aren't THAT many similarities.

[Anonymous]

On a side note: am I the only one who doesn't believe/agree/like it when people equate Armageddon to Dune?  Other than both involving a desert world (Arrakis is WAY harsher than Zalanthan wilderness, though) there aren't THAT many similarities.

The whole spice and house thing is strikingly similar as well, though.

[Marauder Moe]

On a side note: am I the only one who doesn't believe/agree/like it when people equate Armageddon to Dune?  Other than both involving a desert world (Arrakis is WAY harsher than Zalanthan wilderness, though) there aren't THAT many similarities.

The whole spice and house thing is strikingly similar as well, though.

Other than the words "House" and "Spice" I disagree.  But perhaps we should take this to another thread...

[wizturbo]

From my understanding, the weight of these armors is very restrictive, and likely to become MORE restrictive once armors are redone.  In my time here in Armageddon, I have seen VERY few humans wearing full suits of heavy armor.  Mostly, I see half-giants, muls and some dwarves wearing such because they have the strength to support to encumberance.  

While it might be questionable if a human could wear heavy armors and survive, it becomes very realistic for a half-giant or a mul to do so.  They are beyond super-human.

[House Rising Sun]

By any other name, right?

Weapons like the longsword, shortsword, battle axe, dagger (the staples of the swords half of swords and sorcery) are easy to recognize in text for what they are: blades of various shapes and sizes with handles stuck on them. That's all it means. Does any more really need to be said about it? An obsidian sword only carries the flavor of vanilla fantasy if you picture an english knight's sword from the 1300s, except.. made of obsidian. Just remember, it's a distinctly zalanthan sword, whatever that means to YOU.

Regarding the rest of it, for the thirty-fifth time, yes heavy armor will probably kill a dude under krath. But who cares? It's that kind of thinking, trying to apply overly realistic restrictions to a fantasy setting, that gives nerds like us a bad name.

Perhaps some ooc flavor is in order, to shut stuff like this up in the future. Let's take the LotR movies as an example. Starting with little more than the barest armament descriptions, designers came up with dozens of distinct looks and feels to the weapons and armor used. If this is honestly a problem for us, we can do something similar, and just go ahead and define zalanthan style. It'd certainly make a neat page. Armageddon.org is kinda light on the visuals, no?

[EvilRoeSlade]

I've pretty much argued your exact points in the past.  However, I don't think that the problem can be addressed by telling people that that obsidian breastplate is BAD and if they wear it they are a TWINK.  Because people, in general, will always give themselves as much coded advantage as possible, as long as the staff doesn't put their foot down on it.

Rather, I think we should provide coded incentive to the human who wears a loincloth and a leather collar, so that she can kick the ass of the dwarf wearing obsidian on every wear location that she possesses.  Implement combat and thirst penalties for wearing heavy armor.  Make them take "heat damage" periodically if they go out into the wastes.  And furthermore, make the most extreme pieces of armor unavailable in a common store.  These should only be available to guards who are paid to sit in the shade all day, watching a location.

[sacac]

I agree on the obsidian breastplate thing.
But who are you to consider heavyness?
If I am a half-giant with AI strength.
Why would you tell me something is heavy?
I would like to ask if you see more people in obsidian armor then you do in leather and bone. I don't. I don't see very many at all in heavy things like that. And a lot more in leather.
I, my self, have never worn giant turtle shell as armor (And wont) so I can't say one way or another. But in my opinion, how do desert turtles survive with that on? It creates its own atmosphere in there.

[EvilRoeSlade]

They aren't wearing it.  It's their backbone.  It doesn't effect their body temperature in any way whatsoever.

It doesn't really matter how heavy the armor you're wearing is.  What matters is how hot it will make you.  Even a half-giant can die of heat exhaustion and heat stroke.

[sacac]

I missunderstood. Alrighty then. I agree on that though. I never really wore anything during the summer that was heavier then a shirt and maybe shorts. It got pretty hot and I could have sworn I was going to die a few times.

[Bogre]

Zalathans are more fit than we are, because they grew up in the harshness.

[flurry]

But in my opinion, how do desert turtles survive with that on? It creates its own atmosphere in there.

Also, turtles are cold-blooded, so they don't need to regulate their body-temp at some fixed temperature.  Cold-blooded animals tend to do better in hot temperatures and are sluggish when it cools off.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at, but it seems to me that the documentation states that Zalanthians are somewhat tougher, and the environment is a LOT harsher.

[Cuusardo]

I had a character who wore a greathelm (made of chitin) that gave a -5 penalty to max stamina.  Honestly, even though that bugged me a bit, I think that perhaps more of the heavier armors should bear such penalties.


(Minor derailment: Spice in Dune is a single type of drug that causes effects similar to clairvoyance.  It's actually a far cry from the different kinds of spice on Zalanthas.  Zalanthas is much more like the desert world in the movie Stargate, IMO.)

[Maybe42or54]

Yea.. That one outpost was just like luir's. Over ran by them other giant crickets. Killed everyone and eventually taken back.

[Angela Christine]

Zalathans are more fit than we are, because they grew up in the harshness.

I think people over-estimate how adapted Zalanthan people are.  If they are so well adapted that 140-150F temperatures don't bother you while wearing heavy armor, why bother saying that it gets that hot at all?  Wouldn't it make just as much sense to say that the hottest days get up around 120F, with average temperatures being 90-100F?  That would get accross the point that it is unpleasantly hot just as well as fantastically high temperatures and people that are adapted to those temperatures, maybe even better.  I'd say that 140 feels at least as bad to a Zalanthan as 120 feels to a Canadian.

AC

[da mitey warrior]

100% agree with heavy armor giving stamina penalties.  It's realistic, it is a good balance between light and heavy armor, and it effects the right people.  A full suit of platemail might give you -100 stamina (combined for all 10 pieces in a full suit), for example.  A noble guard wouldn't care, since he never uses up stamina while walking around the city.  But the first thing the guard will do if he's ever trapped out in the desert is dump all his heavy armor.  A desert ranger would care, and might go for reinforced sandcloth for it's bonuses.  All this without having to enforce some sort of artificial OOC armor policy.  It's perfect.

While I agree with your ideas on weapons in principle, I think they should be left in because it is what people are familiar with.  Realistly, without metal you shouldn't have any types of swords at all.  And that is just too much of a streach for most people, including myself.  Removing them would not add to the game much and would turn off alot of people.  The most you should do, I should think, is boycott unrealistic weapons without enforcing your views on others.

[jmordetsky]

Rather, I think we should provide coded incentive to the human who wears a loincloth and a leather collar, so that she can kick the ass of the dwarf wearing obsidian on every wear location that she possesses.  Implement combat and thirst penalties for wearing heavy armor.  Make them take "heat damage" periodically if they go out into the wastes.  And furthermore, make the most extreme pieces of armor unavailable in a common store.  These should only be available to guards who are paid to sit in the shade all day, watching a location.

This is so weird, because I was thinking about the same thing today and look now it's a thread. Couldn't agree more with the above.

It's an odd state of affairs, I played a tribal elf once where I purposely wore nothing, save a thong, something on my feat, a headband and some tribal markings. When I would walk into a room, characters sitting around in heavy bone plate would be shocked and appaled at how underdressed I was. To which I would reply, "huh?"

odd.

edited: bekuz I is dum

[Trenidor]

You do know...that Northereners wear lots of armor because it's not as hot up there...right?

And southerners wear very little armor at all.

Read this http://www.armageddon.org/general/fightingstyles.html for starters

And this also explains why northlanders use shields and another weapon...axes, hammers, shortswords, clubs, and the like that are able to either get through armor, or break armor.

Whereas, southerners use two weapons, swords, staves, and other such things that allow them to move quickly for the kill.

Now read this: http://www.armageddon.org/general/clothing.html

That explains why Allanaki wear more clothing then they should. It's MODESTY AND FASHION!!! They take those two over comfort, however if you were logically thinking, the more you cover up, the less likely you are to become sunburnt. They shouldn't however, be wearing armor because of it's restricability and the heat it is underneath.

Up north however, where sandstorms arent as few, and the weather is more "cool-hot" people show their skin, the sun doesn't burn as much, and the weather isn't as bad, however, this is only for the people who don't combat. Commoners are likely to wear this sort of clothing. People such as guardsmen don't wear that type of clothing unless absolutly nessicary.

In the north, one can easily tell the difference between a guard for some house, and a bard for a house.

[Cowboy]

Most folks tend towards using what works for them.  The average desert rat, in the south, wears light stuff and packs two blades.  But common sense and experience tend to cause that same rat to adjust and adapt.  If he joins the Byn or a house as a guard , merc or soldier and has to stand and fight from time to time, then heavier armor and different weapons only make sense.  Only a fool would continue with the sandcloth clothing only thing "cause that's what we do down south."  Plus, some folks tend to travel and see other places and get the chance to acquire other armors and arms.  So looking at the average person and trying to decide where they come from by the way they dress or are armed is a fool's errand.  There are many armors that a a negative affect on stamina, as any good soldier or independent who has to fight to live.  There is a balance between weight and usefulness but like most things here, you need to find out for yourself. Old soldiers know these things.   Young bucks wear what feels good, old ones wear what keeps them alive...feel good er not so they can be "old"soldiers.

[Trenidor]

Most folks tend towards using what works for them.  The average desert rat, in the south, wears light stuff and packs two blades.  But common sense and experience tend to cause that same rat to adjust and adapt.  If he joins the Byn or a house as a guard , merc or soldier and has to stand and fight from time to time, then heavier armor and different weapons only make sense.  Only a fool would continue with the sandcloth clothing only thing "cause that's what we do down south."  Plus, some folks tend to travel and see other places and get the chance to acquire other armors and arms.  So looking at the average person and trying to decide where they come from by the way they dress or are armed is a fool's errand.  There are many armors that a a negative affect on stamina, as any good soldier or independent who has to fight to live.  There is a balance between weight and usefulness but like most things here, you need to find out for yourself. Old soldiers know these things.   Young bucks wear what feels good, old ones wear what keeps them alive...feel good er not so they can be "old"soldiers.

Okay then...since people are gonna do whatever they feel like with no thought about what should occur, then I agree with Comrade Canadia that something needs to be done. However, I was just making point that the VNPCs do it right (and some NPCs)

[Bestatte]

Well *I* wear sandcloth under my heavy plate armor, while hefting a massive, wickedly-spiked obsidian-and-ivory rolling pin. Why, you might ask? Because sandcloth prevents chafing, of course. Everyone knows that. And chafing is the bane to all warriors. Nothing so frustrating as mowing down that gaggle of gith when the rash on your thighs start to itch.

That's my secret. Wear sandcloth skivvies, and it won't matter what you have over them.

[Comrade Canadia]

First of, heavy armour isn't the only point I've addressed here - but it seems to be the one people are going on about.  Allow me to say my piece.

This is NOT AN AVERAGE FANTASY WORLD.  Every other fantasy world out there, there's the ongoing debate between heavy and light armour.  'Do I want to be quick and dextrous?  Or am I slow and powerful?'

This debate shouldn't exist on armag to the same extent it -does- in other worlds because of the heat issue.  This should be 'Do I want to die a painful death of overheating and dehydration?  Or do I not want to die a painful death  from overheating and dehydration?'  

Even in the north (to a lesser extent), heavy armour should be absolutely brutal to be covered in.  Individual pieces, as I said earlier - I actually support.  I like that aesthetic, it's more desertish in my mind.  I don't care if you're a dwarf.  Covering yourself in silt horror should make you DIE.

I'm being rather severe about this because IT'S HEAVY ARMOUR IN A DESERT.  THis isn't just any desert ever.  This is the uberharsh desert of awesomeness!  If we're going to whack off about how harsh we are, we should bloody well have a world that reflects the heat of the world, instead of ignore it.  

And yes, people wear light armour more than heavy.  That still doesn't change the fact that the official uniform of most noble Houses is the heaviest possible armour.   Why?  Ceremonial plate mail, of course.  It's what noble Houses have!

...

IN WESTERN EUROPE.

I would love to see code that punishes you for wearing too much heavy armour - especially over locations like your body... but I'm not holding out for new code.  I just want to bring awareness to this, and at least convince a few people that this -is- an issue.

Speaking of which, here's a few other ideas to toss at people:

Bows as Opposed to Slings:

Wood is expensive.  Arrows are INSANELY expensive.  Why the hell are bows the standard missile weapon when slings can be had?  And I'm not talking about dinky sling-shots, I'm talking about big freaking war slings.  These are weapons which people have used in war, and are quite capable of killing someone.  Bows are better weapons... but a sling should be athe norm and the bow a rich man's alternative.  How cheap is a bit of cloth and a rock for a seriously badass weapon of war and hunting?  Seriously, these should be EVERYWHERE on the mud.  This would require new code - as the code for slings is abhorrent.

I should also mention that I feel crossbows aren't... really armag.  VOTE FOR SLINGS!  SLINGS WILL SAVE YOU FROM TERRORISM!

Greatswords:

Do I need to even get in to this?  Greatswords are ludicrous.  They look silly on armag, and the available materials are all miserable for the creation of greatswords.

Swords in general being favoured over axes, clubs, and spears:

Axes, clubs, and spears should be THE weapons, with swords as a rarer eccentricity.  People have always made axes, clubs, and spears from the materials available on armag... but strangely enough, swords have ALWAYS been made from metal.  Why?  Because bone and obsidian would make for unforgiveably lousy swords!  I'm happy to have them still exist in game - but axes, clubs, and spears should be far more common and... well, statistically better.  The nature of the materials makes this rather obvious, in my mind.

Sandals:

Speaking of heavy armour... why does everyone wear boots?  Sandals are -the- form of footwear in desert heat, and should be plentiful!  

Anyways, discuss.  I'm going to start taking my inane rants to the imms via some of the requests on the projects blog.

-Dave
-On a Crusade!

[Fnord]

The way things are doesn't bother me from an immersion point-of-view, or in regards to game balance.

[Trenidor]

Comrade...Fantasy is Based off Reality. People may think Armageddon is fantasy, but I'm willing to bet ever piece of code on the game came about because of a reality not because someone said it'd be more fantasy like to include this.


So quit chastising code and chastise people. Read all the docs and you'll get the basic feel of a commoner VNPC or a noble VNPC. It's not the Staff at Armageddon that have a problem, rather the players at Armageddon that do.

Why don't you chastise IG it'd be more fun to laugh at a stupid fool for wearing heavy black obsidian armor in the desert.

Then you wearing light sandcloth all bundled up inside can beat the guy up and prove it to them that it's not cool to wear that armor in the desert. It's a bad fashion statement, and it's too hot.

Go tell the Captains down in Allanak that they should quit making you wear this heavy crap.

---
As for bows and slings...tell me one sling that can shoot very far, cause I'd like to buy one.

Plus it is somewhat harder to use a sling than a bow...it takes more practice than just learning how to aim.

And crossbows are too arm style. They're lighter than bows, and are easier to conseal than a bow would be, plus materials like wood are easy enough to get, the kadians and salarri do loads of importing from tuluk to Allanak as well, so seeing bows there is no trouble if your rich enough to handle the shipping price plus the building cost and handlers fee, plus the house tax increase and merchants fees.

I think people use the bow because they like the ease of use it has...
Go criticise IG about it.
---

It's true that some weapons are more advantaged than others, however, I don't want people going around telling others that. Swords ARE weak, but they ARE also a symbol both in RL and on Zalanthas. Sword means Power no matter were you look.

Again...go make fun of someone for using a sword.
---

Sandals:

Same with everything else: DO IT IN GAME!

Sandals are cheeper
Sandals are actually a better fasion than boots are if you're smart enough to watch the clothing of your Nobility.

But, boots are also helpful in modern days of desert areas

---

In other words...if you want to complain about problems of the players, complain first to their characters, then if they are truthfully being unrealistic send an email to the imms stating your side how you hate this and that because of this and that.

The board isn't a place so complain truthfully, it's a intelectual discussion area where people say ideas, not complains...complaints go in the email box for imms to take care of.  :wink:   And that is why, complaining is often considered flaming on a GDB.