Things to make Armageddon Better

[Trenidor]

After returning from a couple month vacation, and then a couple week debate on weather or not I should play arm again, I've decided to make a calm medium.

My "addiction" to arm got me to post this topic on things I believe would keep players longer, and gather new players quicker.

First, I feel we need to increase the ammount of flame watchers or the like. What I mean is (and all my knoledge is based on when I was last here) that we aren't as strict as I would hope we could be on our "This board is for general discussion of Armageddon MUD. No flames, no IC-sensitive information." With a more strict rule on this, I, like the staff agreed a while back, feel armageddon would be a more friendly place to be.

Just to back this up, I'll recall a memory of mine:

When I started to play armageddon three years ago, I was scared, scared that what I did would be ridiculed and me look like something I wouldn't want to look like. I was afraid to post on the GDB because of this, and even playing armageddon was tense.

Now I do not know if it is still like this, but it seams to me that to actually start enjoying arm you have to stick your neck out and take a risk.

After learning some things while I was away, I realized that the minority usually speaks out, the majority is either too bashfull, too scared, or don't think it's nessicary. The majority isn't usually the one that needs the change, it's when the minority voices their consern, and the majority will not speak out that then things change and what I like to call the "debate split" occurs. This split is: the split of the majority to become the minority who then want to voice their side of things and rechange things back to how they were.

So, one thing I suggest to everyone is to voice their side, if the staff can make it safer for us to do it, I recommend they do it. I for one do not like or even want to be attacked because I voice my concern.



The Second thing I suggest be done is we get rid of completely the OOC board. If you want to talk about OOC stuff, email, or message your friends the things. There are too many disgusting things, hatefull things, and other things of the like that cause debates between us, and even scare away joining players.


Third, I would like all posts concerning mudsex or porn or anything to do with that be banned from the GDB. We have people of all ages playing armageddon, true some of them like to be involved in it, but they don't have to publicly state this. Even if it has to do with coded or emotes or anything. PLEASE LET THE STAFF DEAL WITH IT. email the account and state what the problem is, then let them deal with it in a civil manner rather than shouting tot he world that you believe porn and mudsex is the best thing in life.



These are just some of my ideas, I hope that I can get some people to back me up in this, alot of people to back me up would be better though.

Trenidor

[Agent_137]

I think less flames would be good.

I wouldn't complain if some of my posts were deleted and then I got an email or a PM.

This would probably (maybe) subdue the strong attacks that Trenidor mentioned, enough at least to where they become discussions and not battles with lines drawn in the sand. (...maybe)

And instead of banning any mention of sex from the boards (you can have it ingame but not mention it on the boards? eh...) we could insitute a healthy "NSFW" policy.

Not Safe For Work.

If you're posting about sex, mudsex, porn, or anything that would get you in trouble at work, toss NSFW into the title. That way the people that are at work don't happen into it, and any people who don't want to be inolved with it for other reasons, don't have to.

[Kankman]

I don't think anything you mentioned actually has anything to do with Armageddon at all. Yes, on the old GDB I was scared to post because I thought I might be wrong and be ridiculed. However, changing all of those things won't make Armageddon any better or worse, because, well, you didn't address the GAME at all.

That's it.

[Solas]

Curse words are bad.  :wink:  ..don't you guys get bored of using the same vocabulary over and over again? Use some other word to express your feeling.... :roll:

...I'm gunna get ambushed and killed by a giant Rynthi half-giant.  :shock:

[Kankman]

The meat and potatoes of this subject is making the GDB a friendlier place. I'm not sure this would help attract new players or keep others longer. When I first started playing, I didn't even look at the GDB for months, possibly longer, because I didn't care about the "community" that played Armageddon, I just wanted to play the game. I agree, that people shouldn't be singled out and made to feel stupid for asking certain questions, and to be honest, I don't see much of that anymore. Aside from the odd instigator here and there, we're much better at loving and hugging bunnies than we used to be.

As a final statement, I still don't see how changing anything on the GDB will make the game any better or worse for anyone.

[Trenidor]

Man I leave for a few hours and you guys already have my post sifted and ready to do exactly what I said I didn't like.

This is exactly what I mean by what I stated earlier. Solas and Kankman could you tone it down to strictly what the topic is on?

[Trenidor]

It's important to uphold a type of standard, a good one, that way when people hear your name, they think how good you are, and in actuallity, there are more people in the world that want to hear about things that are good than things that are bad (bad in the way of creepy, and good in the way of not creepy) If Armageddon has a good reputation, we'll do alot better than if we have a bad reputation.

This will help armageddon by having a better reputation. Better reputation, more publicity; more publicity, the more players that can be attracted; and finnaly, the more players, the larger the playerbase the more races we can have open and the more houses that can be played in. With a total sum of more fun RP.

I really don't want to be preachey, but even if there was a header for your sex posts, how will that stop little 13 year olds from going into it? Porn and porn relations are banned in many locations for anyone under the age of 18 (and that's the minimum, in some cases it's 21 or higher) Therefore, I say we just get rid of it from the GDB. If however, they happened to stumble apon it In Game, I'm fine with that and hope they choose the better route.

And, since Solas has brought up the topic of swearing, I'd have to say cut it down a lot more. It's alright for a few swears on a page, but when thats basically your entire vocabulary it just doesn't do as much justice.

Now for the game part of this:

When your In-Game, it's your responsibility not to offend others, it's also true that they should report it if it's bothersome to them; but I don't feel people stress that enough, I've only found it in one or two locations that it says things about harrassment.

The next thing I would say is if someone isn't properly doing something, tell them with a quick OOC. Even if they are a professional Arm player, they could still make a mistake. And on the flipside, don't be affraid to take what information someone is telling you, even if you are the all time best armageddon player around, it doesn't nessecarily mean you know every trick there is to the game.


Lastly, one thing I hate are comments.
Commenting to people that they mispelled a word, or commenting that there is only one way of doing things, even commenting that the person forgot something. Now I'm not going to tell you to never do it, but make it also a rare occation thing, most comments I've seen on this board and OOCly IG have been made specifically to bring other people down.

[Agent_137]

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree.

Three, sometimes people are nasty. There are no rules against being mean to others that you meet, be it cheating, stealing, killing, swindling, or otherwise making a fool out of them as long as the meanness is in-character (IC).

It's very clear that the only thing you need consent for in this game is rape scenes.

When your In-Game, it's your responsibility not to offend others, it's also true that they should report it if it's bothersome to them; but I don't feel people stress that enough, I've only found it in one or two locations that it says things about harrassment.

It is NOT my responsibility to not offend others in game. If my character is a prick, then it IS my responsibility to offend others.

If you the player happens to be offended too, sorry. Go play a kiddie game. I honestly don't think this game is good for 13 year olds. And I don't want it watered down to make it acceptable for them.

Oh the boards? Yea, we should all be more polite and considerate. Respect for your fellow humans is a handy thing.

Also, I would not want to see OOC corrections start popping up ingame. OOC should be used rarely and only in the most dire of circumstances. You should feel dirty when you use it, even if it was for a legitimate reason.

[Alamos]

And, since Solas has brought up the topic of swearing, I'd have to say cut it down a lot more. It's alright for a few swears on a page, but when thats basically your entire vocabulary it just doesn't do as much justice.

I find it amusing you knock the guy on deviating from the topic then use his point to reinforce yours.  What's it gonna be?  Bringing up new points is a healthy and natural result of looking at things from different angles.

When your In-Game, it's your responsibility not to offend others, it's also true that they should report it if it's bothersome to them; but I don't feel people stress that enough, I've only found it in one or two locations that it says things about harrassment.

I rarely post, but this comment has roused me from my GDB complacency.  I could not disagree more.  Armageddon is the harsh and deadly world we all love (or at least I do) because of the unforgiving, scheming, malevolent, ignorant, racist [characters]*edited for 13 yr olds* that give this world its unique identity.  For the majority of the characters I play, I feel it is my responsibility to be as vulgar and offensive as possible, because that's what I feel there needs to be more of in this game, and less tea-sipping exchanges of pleasantries.  I believe this is the opinion of the majority and the reason there is so little written on harassment is because, IG, it's supposed to be there.  I could not think of anything more OOC than treating others with respect if in fact your character would never do such a thing.  Maybe I read this in the wrong manner, but I sincerely hope we're not going add rainbows and lollipops to this game to make it more appealing and welcoming.  Do whatever you want to the GDB :p

[jstorrie]

In-game it is still your responsibility to not harass people on an out-of-character level.

Short of using the OOC command, though, I'm not sure how offending actual players could really be accomplished.

[amoeba]

I see two major points in your post.

1. Reduce the amount of negative banter on the GDB.
2. Remove any adult oriented matter from the GDB

On the first.  I agree there is a tendancy of certain people to be crass, inflammatory, and just plain mean at times.  IMHO this should be handled on a case by case basis.  I believe that the staff does take the time to quell the most aggregious posts.  This is and will always be an ongoing issue.  The only way to completely eliminate it, would be to have the entire site moderated, that is heavily censored.  I feel that this only serves to stiffle conversations, place undue pressures on the staff, and create a negative atmosphere between staff and players.

On the second point.  This is an adult oriented game.  Please don't read that into meaning a mudsex game, what I mean by this is that interpersonal relationships, even the very personal ones, are a major driving factor behind our motavations.  To deny these, or to restrict these to a particular arbitary threshold whould do a disservice to those folks playing thier roles honestly.   To say that frank discussions about these should be banned because innocent ears may be reading has a few problems.  

- What would this threshold be? Who would set it? What would the consequenses be?

What your post is suggesting that we adopt is a hush hush,  keep it to yourself policy. IMHO this is a slippery slope to navigate.  I also dislike the level of crass behaviour on the GDB, but I can deal with it.  Personaly I have found some of the discussions to be interesting, and provide an insight into someother peoples perceptions.   Some of the posts mixed in these discussions were of a, shall we say, less than pleasant nature, but once again I think this should be handled on a case by case basis.

My 2 'sid

[Realedazed]

I guess may just be a RP issue. But, I usually don't mind the use of swear words in the game - since this is an mature game. But I would like to see less of real life swears and more in game type ones, ya know?

[EvilRoeSlade]

Third, I would like all posts concerning mudsex or porn or anything to do with that be banned from the GDB. We have people of all ages playing armageddon, true some of them like to be involved in it, but they don't have to publicly state this. Even if it has to do with coded or emotes or anything. PLEASE LET THE STAFF DEAL WITH IT. email the account and state what the problem is, then let them deal with it in a civil manner rather than shouting tot he world that you believe porn and mudsex is the best thing in life.

And yet you're okay with posts about violence, murder, and death?  Allow me to humbly suggest that your priorities are Fucked Up.

The only other thing I have to say has already been said.

If you the player happens to be offended too, sorry. Go play a kiddie game. I honestly don't think this game is good for 13 year olds. And I don't want it watered down to make it acceptable for them.

Armageddon is very much a niche hobby.  I believe that the majority of the people in this world would either be uninterested in it or disturbed by it.  Trying to make it acceptable for a group of people whose numbers far outweigh our own (thirteen year olds, for example), is only going to destroy the game as we now it and change it into something that won't appeal to those currently here.

[Savak]

The problems with moderating this board are several.  Personally, the volume is too much for me to even READ, much less moderate.  If it were entirely up to me, I'd nix a few forums and delete posts in a wide swathe.  But calmer heads have prevailed, and others on staff have more time and do regularly moderate, at the current level.

One reason we opened up so many forums and have let so much go has been to develop more of a community presence -- that said, Trenidor brings up a good point regarding the vocal minority and, from me, the tendency for bullies and morons to sift to the top.  Sadly, this is how it usually goes with large groups of people (hey, just look at politics).

In some ways this has worked; there is a definite atmosphere and far more people involved in the board and the game than there was before.  Exactly how much is due to what specific thing (boards, game events, code, advertising, etc.), I don't know.  In other ways it hasn't; more flames, more bullying, more sub-niche groups, lots of pointless tangents, etc., than there used to be.

The question is how people would respond to change, and what sort of change, if any, would be most beneficial.  Because of the vocal MINORITY, we can't really know that -- the overall success or failure is determined by the quiet majority.  But they can be swayed by the vocal.  And round and round it goes.  In the end, we just have to make our own judgement and hope for the best.

-Savak

[My 2 sids]

I don't think anything you mentioned actually has anything to do with Armageddon at all. Yes, on the old GDB I was scared to post because I thought I might be wrong and be ridiculed. However, changing all of those things won't make Armageddon any better or worse, because, well, you didn't address the GAME at all.

I'd just like to thank Trenidor for bringing this topic up.  Although Zalanthas is the actual setting for role-play, helpfiles/staff/helppers/ chat channel/ and GDB are all part of the game.  I feel many probably do read the GDB first before even setting foot in Zalanthas.  To that, we should try to maintain a fun and approprate atmosphere on the GDB.  

I'll agree this game shouldn't be played by thirteen year olds, heck it shouldn't even be played by seventeen year olds!  However, I have to question the maturity level of GDB people who feel their "adulthood" is somehow challenged by a simple request to cut back on swear and sex talk.

[Reverend Jeff]

Well, I certainly think that there's a difference between cutting back and cutting it out completely. I think it's pretty clear that Trenidor is looking to have it completely removed and not just cut back on.  Which, incidentally, is something I'd be opposed to, though I'll leave my reasonings for that belief for another time when I feel like typing something a bit longer.

[Seeker]

I respectfully disagree with all three of Trenidor's suggestions.

First, I feel we need to increase the ammount of flame watchers or the like.

While I agree that the lack of common courtesy among a few unusually prolific posters on the GDB can occasionally be an issue, I am not eager to see anyone's right to express themselves on any topic suppressed.  A healthier community is self-regulating.  I think the staff currently does an excellent job of handling the balance.

Look at it as a neighborhood.  Every neighborhood I have ever lived in has a few mewling butt-heads in it.  I am not in favor of nailing their doors closed so that others can feel more comfortable.  I would not choose to live in Disney World.

The Second thing I suggest be done is we get rid of completely the OOC board.

Really a non-issue.  I can choose to skip the forum and usually do.  Again, why seal off an avenue of community-building?  If some of the neighbors enjoy chatting over the backyard fences, I don't feel the need to turn the hose on them if I don't agree with their tastes.

Third, I would like all posts concerning mudsex or porn or anything to do with that be banned from the GDB.

If there was a danger to minors from the MUD because of sexuality, I think it would only be increased by not having the policies, guidelines and even the player's general opinions not open to the light of day.  Nasty things can lurk in the repressed shadows.  

Let people know that we have a very wide range of play, and that intimate scenes, between consenting players, are possible, and are subject to open discussion just as any other facet of play.

I enjoy that this is a mature forum.  That the game is a mature game.  Maturity requires being comfortable enough with your opinions that you are able to see them challenged.  


Seeker

[Trenidor]

I've organized a few co-suggestions that go along with the ones in my first post:

Allow people the staff trust (not exactly people with karma) to moderate forms. Sort of a position that doesn't really deal with Armageddon as a game but monitoring the outside to make sure excessive rants occur or that flames don't start. They couldn't be people that often flame or do exactly what moderators are to fix, but people that are often online reading the boards and many types of topics.

There are alternatives to using an ooc board. Email, IM, and other things that allow for information to be transfered.  The main thing I've seen with the OOC board is that it brings down people in the Civil community and often topics come up that cause quarrels. When people see these that don't understand the Armageddon Community as a whole, they obtain a type of avoidance or dislike, even disgust towards armageddon.

On my third Suggestion, I will agree with some points made by seeker: Make it known to players that they could come in contact with things dealing with Sex. I do however still stand by my decision of removing it from the General Discussion Board. There isn't that many reasons why it should be on the board as a discussing matter, and yet we find other reasons that aren't included in the reasons why it should be on here.

[Miee]

I wasn't going to come in on this, then I was, then I wasn't, now I am.  Anybody that goes for the obvious joke will suffer an abuse of my goddamned power on the IRC channel.  I've moved past the need to have a discussion about politics and just go straight to the angry stage when I hear the words "Kerry" or "Bush" or any nicknames thereof.  

So I post on a forum that's associated with a charity.  We're required to follow specific rules.  No posting of other's personal information, nothing potentially criminal, don't advocate suicide, don't be excessively cruel or hateful, no sexual harassment, nothing that would be considered indecent, no profanity, and a request that we all try and be civil to each other.  This is basically for the charity's own protection.  Things can get rather heated and after a while, you know the forum you should just avoid if you don't want irrational flames from every side (hint, see the first paragraph.  It's because of that forum that I'm SO ANGRY).  There's a lot of moderators.  Some of them work for the charity itself, some are community volunteers.  It is a massive job and that's aside from the fact that there are 3000+ users and there's a rule against sock puppets.

A seperate forum area is required so that there's a degree of transparency in the moderator's actions.  If action is taken against a user for violation of rule X, there will always be a massive controversy over it.  Also, the forum has a button that says "report post" because the moderators cannot read every single post in every single forum.

We're much smaller, but do we really want this headache?  We're moderated enough as it is (i.e. very little).  Aside from a few of us, we manage to keep within the boundaries and enjoy ourselves.

The OOC forum is for community building.  Community is a good thing.  Community is what gives us those wonderful APM pics.  Community is good for those of us who just want to shoot the OT shit with other players or share minor tales of RL and Arm.

Now, as far as discussing sex here.  Between the Imms and the players we've got a world.  It's a world in progress (da-dum).  Part of that is going to involve sex.  Also, violence.  When we have a thread on "So how okay is homosexuality?", "How do you think pregnancy and mul mix plays out on Zalanthas?", or "So what do you look for in your Zalanthan mates?" we're adding to the culture.  Now, unless I missed a thread (which happens because the GDB is full of junk.  JUNK I SAY!) I haven't seen anything incredibly explicit as of late out of people that aren't Angela Christine.  I'm also fairly certain that registration for a board account complies with the CDA with regards to being at least thirteen years old.  I'm less sure about the status of the CDA, but that's another matter.

In short, moderation is going to be a massive headache, the OOC forum is for the community, and sex is a part of the world we're building.  After all, our names aren't Roy and Walt, you know.

[Bestatte]

What dealing with rants and flames on the GDB (until they can be dealt with by the staff) accomplishes:

It teaches people how to grow a thicker skin. Armageddon is -not- a game for the thin-skinned. Think of it as prep work for the game.

What having an OOC board accomplishes:

It allows players to have a community of their own, where each member can bond with the other based on the fact that they all play the same game, and where they are not required to be IC or discuss the game if they choose not to. Call it a place for Armers to cut loose and still be with Armers.

What mentioning sex accomplishes:

On the game-related sections of the GDB, it accomplishes a better understanding of relationships in the game. Here's a clue: characters have sex. Sometimes with other people. If this concept is too disturbing for a potential player who is reading the GDB for the first time, then they probably shouldn't submit a character application.

As far as sex in general is concerned, I prefer not to read threads that refer to certain fetishes. Obviously it's impossible to know if something is related to sex until you've already read it..but I refer you back to #1 - growing a thick skin.

Armageddon isn't kiddie-land, thank (insert deity here). If I wanted to hang out with very young children who were too impressionable to handle the occasional reference to genitalia, I'd have my own. Another hint for ya: I had my tubes tied almost 10 years ago.

We have rules for the GDB. No IC-sensitive information, no flames. MOST of the time, the staff does a damned good job dealing with the flames. Sometimes something will slip through, and a note to the staff will get it handled as soon as someone is available to handle it. With the exception of the APM, I haven't seen a request to handle a flame take longer than a single day.

We don't need more moderators. We don't need to hide the word "fuck" from impressionable ears. And we don't need to force anyone who's between characters to find some other place to go so they can discuss the latest episode of General Hospital to other players who might also be between characters.

I say leave things as they are. It ain't broke, no need to fix it.

[Miee]

...crap.  Bestatte and I agreed again.  If Zhaira agrees now, we're all DOOMED.

Or there's cookies.  I forget how that works out.

END DERAIL

[Bestatte]

Never you mind, Miee. Just accept that once in awhile, you actually have a moment of reason and sanity. I promise, I'm not angry that you keep trying to be just like me. I'm flattered, you, you...you scamp you!

And yeah - if that crazed poster known as Miee and I agree on something, you can bet your bippies that we're right. Right I say!

edited because I put the I after the ee.

[Trenidor]

I really don't want to see Armageddon keep drifting down to the gutter, That's why I'm voicing my conserns now before it gets worse and worse.
I'm going to say it out in the open now:

I don't like it when you cook up hatred towards other people, even if it's momentary hate. It's come down to some of you hating people just because they disagree with what you think. Seams pretty childish to me.

I also do not like when you post sex questions that could even more easily be answered by emailing an Imm: "Hey imm! how do you think pregnancy and mul mix plays out on Zalanthas?" would return you with the proper response to your question.

I'm not the greatest of debatist, and I'd rather not be, but I'd like to say before I leave, that I'm sick of grown men and women that are freaks. They play computer games, drink booze, some smoke, and talk about sex. For starters I don't care if you're having sex, and I don't really want to know. Next, I know some of you spend a lot of time playing arm, I can only suspect that you play other games as well. Then, you do the same pattern day in and day out.

I for one am tired.
I am not going to defend my views here anymore.

Some of you might be glad, some of you might not care, but either way, just remember that I tried stating my views, that's better than most.

[Agent_137]

They play computer games, drink booze, some smoke, and talk about sex.

:mrgreen:

[Reverend Jeff]

I for one am tired.
I am not going to defend my views here anymore.

Some of you might be glad, some of you might not care, but either way, just remember that I tried stating my views, that's better than most.

I realize there might not be any response from Trenidor on this, but here's my main concern.  It seems to me like most everyone who responded to this thread addressed the issue with well-reasoned opinions.  I, like many of the other people who addressed this, think we understand where Trenidor is coming from.  I imagine most of us also respect the fact that Trenidor may have differing opinions than our own.  

But that's the key here.  Because our opinions differ, we're trying to discuss them (this is, after all, the GDB).  While I firmly believe that everyone should be allowed to give their opinions here, it also means that people should have the right to respond with their own opinions, even if they're different or conflicting.  To quote from Trenidor's signature, I realize and respect that your "voiced [your] concerns," and "offered suggestions," but the biggest problem that I see is that you feel that you "can't keep going without supporters."  It seems more like the original post was meant to rally troops and cause a massive house-cleaning instead of encourage an open and honest discussion.  And, just to put it down on paper, I'm for people being able to express their opinions, regardless of whether I agree with them or not, and against people trying to chill discussion on just about any subject, except those that are entirely outside of the community standards of the GDB.

One of the reasons that I held off replying to this topic was because, personally, I find comments about how the only people who post are the "vocal minority" rather offensive, along with what I interpret as an "us and them" mentality that seems very prevalant in both the original post and Trenidor's most recent.  However, just because I feel insulted by them doesn't really matter all that much.  What's important is the discussion.

So, keep up the good work, Arm staffers.  I'm all for maintaining the status quo for now.