Splitting off from the Decay Thread, I thought maybe we could talk about the idea of making "poisoning" a crafting skill, rather than the skill to apply it to a weapon.

How do you guys feel about the idea that any poison has to be successfully crafted, like "craft poison.gland vial into a vial of green syrup"? It would make the fail process a BIT more interesting, but may not be able to specifically make the poisoner get poisoned by his own things (because of the crafting code).

If that happened, what would happen to the poison item that was crafted? Does would there still need to be a skill to poison food and weapons? SHOULD there be skill involved in poisoning the tips of arrows and the steak of a noble, if you can get your hands on a crumbling tablet of bloodburn?

What do you guys think?

When I was thinking about this the other day, I actually laughed at how catastrophic it would be if you couldn't tell if you succeeded or failed.  You got the product either way.  But it just wasn't poisonous.  That's a version of failure that we just don't have right now.  Combine it with other ways of failure, and creating poisons becomes a lot more interesting.

I think the poisoning skill should be required...but I think prevalence should be swapped between poison and brew.  More people able to apply poisons, but fewer people able to make poisons, and most poisoners being middlingly good at it.  It's not that they poison themselves all the time.  It's that their poison is often unreliable or weak in potency.

The cures could do with a revamp.  It's not that the system entirely needs to change as far as brew goes.  But every plant doesn't need to be made into a certain kind of cure.  Red tinted leaves and plants?  Cut it down to things that actually cleanse the blood or in some way counteract bloodburn.  Things that increase body metabolism?  Those become this kind of cure.

In essence...brew doesn't need a redo, perse (aside from making it a crafting skill like the others), but it could sure do with an overhaul as far as all the things that get used in it, and how common those things are.  Combine weaker poisons with fewer cures, and you've got a much more interesting poison-world, I think.

I'd rather poisoning just not poison you if you were wearing gloves or something.
And leave it at that.

Quote from: Armaddict on August 01, 2016, 06:31:22 PM
When I was thinking about this the other day, I actually laughed at how catastrophic it would be if you couldn't tell if you succeeded or failed.  You got the product either way.  But it just wasn't poisonous.  That's a version of failure that we just don't have right now.  Combine it with other ways of failure, and creating poisons becomes a lot more interesting.

Ooh, now this is something I hadn't thought of. You brew a vial of poison, one way or the other, but there's not really a way to tell if its going to work, or not. But that'd require making a vial/tablet/etc of every poison, and then basically mirroring that object because if there was ANY indication it wouldn't work, it'd just be junked off anyway.

My concern is just as Armaddict mentioned, however, that cures would just be too easy, considering the likely nerfing of poisons because now they'd be super rare.

Again with the Brew Skill, what if the recipes it 'creates' were just turned into "craft" recipes, and brew as a command removed from the game. That way, at least for a short time period, apothecaries would need to 'master craft' different recipes into cures, that make sense.

* - or maybe one of the cures for a poison, isn't subverting the poison code by just poisoning you with a DIFFERENT poison, overwriting the first one. Just saying.

What is being described has some precedent in the game.  Potion making (pre brew, pre crafting) used to produce a bottle that was

1. what you tried to make + an extra beneficial spell (rare, magick can be mysteriously rewarding)
2. what you tried to make (most of the time)
3. what you tried to make + a negative spell (sometimes)
4. a dud (frustrating, but it happens)
5. purely negative spell (rare, you take your chances with magick).

The different bottles were indistinguishable from each other (in fact the same object).

Cool!

Is that some of the old code that you've removed, or do you think it could be repurposed?  Obviously ideas take a lot of discussion and such on staff side, but is continued discussion on this on the player side desirable or is this one of those 'out of reach' code projects?

Quote from: nessalin on August 01, 2016, 07:15:09 PM
What is being described has some precedent in the game.  Potion making (pre brew, pre crafting) used to produce a bottle that was

1. what you tried to make + an extra beneficial spell (rare, magick can be mysteriously rewarding)
2. what you tried to make (most of the time)
3. what you tried to make + a negative spell (sometimes)
4. a dud (frustrating, but it happens)
5. purely negative spell (rare, you take your chances with magick).

The different bottles were indistinguishable from each other (in fact the same object).

I like the idea of this as things being distilled via brew into vials of poison, and using the 'poison' skill to do that, rather than actually apply the poison, and when it fails leaving the bottle/vial empty but destroying your other ingredients and poisoning you via some accident while distilling or spillage, rather than just giving a 'dud' item, thus forcing you to take a cure while also leaving the vial (which are about 1/10th of a common clanned salary each, thus 'expensive' for anything but rare use) left over for you to try again with. It would be weird but interesting to see an additional effect tacked on to the positive or the negative.

Considering there's all sorts of poisonous monsters out there that kill you if you don't have cures, I'm not sure making cures rarer is all that good for the game. A simple snakebite crossing the Red could cost you some good people... and then, there's other baddies who I'll refrain from mentioning here. As it is, finding someone who even has the brew skill, who's willing to crank out a tablet, can be quite a task.

Quote from: Dunetrade55 on August 01, 2016, 07:51:32 PM
Considering there's all sorts of poisonous monsters out there that kill you if you don't have cures, I'm not sure making cures rarer is all that good for the game. A simple snakebite crossing the Red could cost you some good people... and then, there's other baddies who I'll refrain from mentioning here. As it is, finding someone who even has the brew skill, who's willing to crank out a tablet, can be quite a task.

See, I find the idea of poisoned creatures worthless when most of them can be cured so easily.  Poisonous snakes and the like -should- be something to consider, even if they are not particularly threatening (and they aren't; their poison is neither strong nor is their combat prowess impressive).  Hunting is not a mindless activity, it is a constant danger that is risky to make a profession out of, but lucrative...particularly when you're the one who brings in the materials for the rarer cures and poisons.

I find the opposite to be true for finding tablets.  They are not generally hard to find, if you actually ask around for them.

I think the best poisons should be expensive and difficult and require even a merchant to help make perhaps - historical quality poisons took a lot of work. Because of the magick changes and how buggy tablets are, poisons are also harder to counter now.

Quote from: Dunetrade55 on August 01, 2016, 07:51:32 PM
...As it is, finding someone who even has the brew skill, who's willing to crank out a tablet, can be quite a task.

Really?  I don't think I've ever had issues with this.
The thing with cures is just...making them never fails.  Never.  You end up with so many of them because you put two things together and bam! cure.  Repeat twenty times.
You never fail making it and what you make never fails to work.

I think it would be interesting if you had to craft your poison before applying it.  But at the same, there are plenty of toxic substances in RL that don't have to be made, they're toxic in their natural form...so it does sort of make sense to me that the game has moss and leaves etc that are poisonous as they are.  

I think it's an interesting idea that poisons could be crafted and they could end up being useless without you knowing.  I would think though, that you could test the vial without wasting the whole thing...or a master poisoner would be able to tell slight differences in an effective poison vs a dud.

Poisonous creatures shouldn't be endangering travelers much, if at all.  Simply don't eat or pet them.

The venomous ones should certainly be avoided, however.

Quote from: Case on August 01, 2016, 08:12:47 PM
I think the best poisons should be expensive and difficult and require even a merchant to help make perhaps - historical quality poisons took a lot of work. Because of the magick changes and how buggy tablets are, poisons are also harder to counter now.

Because merchants are so adept at handling poisons? Isn't brew literally the ONLY craft skill they don't get?

I would think it should basically be linked to the same guilds that get brew, and the ones who get the best at poisoning, not the best at brew, should be the ones needed to make "the best" poisons, unless you make apothecary cost more karma, because it already allows you mastercrafting where master tailor/jeweler etc afaik if I remember right were 2 karma.

Merchants are good at making a lot of things, but I don't get the logic there. Any chance you'd be willing to explain why someone who only makes things and is not at all adept with poisons or distilling inherently, should be required to make the best poisons?

Quote from: manipura on August 01, 2016, 08:14:18 PM

Quote from: Dunetrade55 on August 01, 2016, 07:51:32 PM
...As it is, finding someone who even has the brew skill, who's willing to crank out a tablet, can be quite a task.

Really?  I don't think I've ever had issues with this.
The thing with cures is just...making them never fails.  Never.  You end up with so many of them because you put two things together and bam! cure.  Repeat twenty times.
You never fail making it and what you make never fails to work.

I've had a lot of issues with such things, it really depends on your playstyle, play times, and more.

As for cures... well... X cure cures Y poison. I make 5 of X cure. I wind up poisoned by Y poison. Take 5 of the cure (which has reliably worked at every other encounter with said poison), and none of them work. In fact, the poison seems to actively be worse, adding coded effects that it has not before.

Now... I don't know when the last time you personally have dealt with all of this is, but the above anecdote is an example of something that has happened to me within the past few months, so it's a pretty recent example of cures not being 100% reliable, even if it looks like the cure and it typically cures the thing. So... 

Quote from: bardlyone on August 01, 2016, 08:19:00 PM

Quote from: Case on August 01, 2016, 08:12:47 PM
I think the best poisons should be expensive and difficult and require even a merchant to help make perhaps - historical quality poisons took a lot of work. Because of the magick changes and how buggy tablets are, poisons are also harder to counter now.

Because merchants are so adept at handling poisons? Isn't brew literally the ONLY craft skill they don't get?

I would think it should basically be linked to the same guilds that get brew, and the ones who get the best at poisoning, not the best at brew, should be the ones needed to make "the best" poisons, unless you make apothecary cost more karma, because it already allows you mastercrafting where master tailor/jeweler etc afaik if I remember right were 2 karma.

Merchants are good at making a lot of things, but I don't get the logic there. Any chance you'd be willing to explain why someone who only makes things and is not at all adept with poisons or distilling inherently, should be required to make the best poisons?

Because tbh merchants need more ways to be badass and fewer ways to be grind vending machines

I disagree, but, that's just me. You're talking about actual hunters who go out and hunt stuff, and my perspective is from that of a Bynner, which, we all know what a clusterfuck that can be. Are they weak? Well, yes, but they still have a very respectable chance of biting you. I've resisted these before with kickass endurance, but otherwise it's just a red tablet munching fiasco, if you're unfortunate enough to be ambushed by them at every turn.

Then there's other players... and if you don't have the bloodburn cure it can very well ruin your concept for "seemingly" little or no reason (usually there is a reason).

I think being poisoned by something SHOULD be dangerous. I don't think that a cure should be "walk into bar, shout Anyonez has reds" and instant cure. The "newish" code for poisons requiring multiple doses is actually -really- awesome to me, because then its not just walking out with a cure package in all the colors of the rainbow... you better make sure you have enough doses to actually cleanse yourself.

Quote from: Dunetrade55 on August 01, 2016, 08:55:29 PM
I disagree, but, that's just me. You're talking about actual hunters who go out and hunt stuff, and my perspective is from that of a Bynner, which, we all know what a clusterfuck that can be. Are they weak? Well, yes, but they still have a very respectable chance of biting you. I've resisted these before with kickass endurance, but otherwise it's just a red tablet munching fiasco, if you're unfortunate enough to be ambushed by them at every turn.

Then there's other players... and if you don't have the bloodburn cure it can very well ruin your concept for "seemingly" little or no reason (usually there is a reason).

Honestly, this just seems like another bonus to me.  Rangers prioritize endurance over strength, because the wilds have poisons.  Seems legit.

Quote from: Case on August 01, 2016, 08:40:37 PM

Quote from: bardlyone on August 01, 2016, 08:19:00 PM

Quote from: Case on August 01, 2016, 08:12:47 PM
I think the best poisons should be expensive and difficult and require even a merchant to help make perhaps - historical quality poisons took a lot of work. Because of the magick changes and how buggy tablets are, poisons are also harder to counter now.

Because merchants are so adept at handling poisons? Isn't brew literally the ONLY craft skill they don't get?

I would think it should basically be linked to the same guilds that get brew, and the ones who get the best at poisoning, not the best at brew, should be the ones needed to make "the best" poisons, unless you make apothecary cost more karma, because it already allows you mastercrafting where master tailor/jeweler etc afaik if I remember right were 2 karma.

Merchants are good at making a lot of things, but I don't get the logic there. Any chance you'd be willing to explain why someone who only makes things and is not at all adept with poisons or distilling inherently, should be required to make the best poisons?

Because tbh merchants need more ways to be badass and fewer ways to be grind vending machines

.... I still don't see the logic. You want them needed to make top end poisons, despite not having poisoning or brew and it's because it would be 'another way to be badass' - which is literally the same way that they already are (ie: being needed to make the most difficult type of thing x or y), and does nothing to ameliorate or change the grind, or make them less looked to for items. In fact, I think if you want to play something that's not centered around craft and trade, there's 5 other main guilds, some of which actually DO have poisoning and brew. It's ironic rite?

I seriously still do not get why you think it should require a merchant in any sense of the lore or game or IC logic aspect of things, and even the general one line thought on it still makes no sense to me. Agree to disagree, I guess.

Cures can be easy to get, or hard to get. A rinthi elf cannot run into the Gaj and shout 'Anyone have any Reds' without, hopefully, being pelted with bottles of red sun and left to die in a writhing heap of bottles and jeers.

Want merchants to be more badass? Don't be a grind machine. I've played a merchant recently. I could have more coin than I've ever had before, if my char wasn't three dimensional, had flaws, and other things to do than be a grind machine. Or, alternatively, pick a neat subguild. Sheesh. Merchants don't have component crafting, yet, we could throw that in there too, because we need ways to make merchants socialize in the game more, force RP.

The cures and poisons game IS hard for some people, especially when after 10+, they still have no real clue what cure goes with what poison, beyond red, yellow, green. There's supposed to be plenty more, and apparently, there are freaking vials now. I'm glad some of you know all of the secrets, I don't. So getting cures isn't as easy as walking into a tavern and asking, especially if I'm not playing the most likeable chars, or my ooc pals aren't on. (I have no ooc pals, btw, RL sickens me, I don't even communicate with the people in my damned house.... I digress). I've had plenty of chars die, or almost die, to those harmless little venomous creatures. I almost died once because, as a half-elf, the person selling me cures purposefully lied to me about which thing cures what, and oocly, I was pissed, because I knew better, but I still had to eat the damn cure, because my PC didn't.

I like the poison crafting, cures making system. Brew and Poisoning haven't become something I'm super jaded over, because I haven't min/maxed my way to the top with anyone who's had it, and I once created Heramide on accident, and had my clan mates threaten to kill me if I didn't tell them how. I still don't know how I did it, or if it even WAS heramide. Mystery and novelty abound.

*sigh*


I DO have a problem with cures and poison though. I want there to be more than one type of 'green' cure, that has several different looks to it. A mash of leaves, a vial to be chugged, and a darn tablet to boot. I want the mash to be bluish-green, the vial to be either murky, or clear, depending on which type of herbs you use, and the tablet to decay over time, because half of them are crumbling anyways. Only those with magickal 'tint vision should be able to tell they're all the same. The same with poisons, I'm not sure what form vomit poison takes, but if it's tablets, that should take a master to crumble up into someone's drinks, but maybe not be so hard to put into food, if it is hard already? If it's in a vial, by all means, throw it in some liquor and assassinate away. Food though.... some judgement calls to be made there. I've yet to even attempt to poison anyone either of these ways because unfortunately, the random dice rolls I use to determine what guild/sub-guild I play next have not sent me a reliable, long-lived poisoner.

I want a lot of realism, in many ways, but speaking from RL, personal experience making medicine and drugs out of plants, that shit can be fucking hard. I keep overheating my diazapam tea and ruining the active ingredient, and the water isn't even boiling!! Why? How the hell am I supposed to know what exact temp to use when ol' johnny hopkins can't even tell if we're suppose to be utilizing the flavanoids or alkali. The tea still tastes nice, though. Fermentation has caused all kinds of damned problems for me, and creating penicillin from orange peels is NOT as easy as it might seem from wikihow. This shit is tedious, hard, and I have books, and books, and books left to read. .....Maybe please don't make something IG that still holds my interest as terribly frustrating as it is in RL, but possibly spice it up with something less binary for those who are calling for a change.

And yes. craft herb herb into tablet should fail sometimes.

I'm not sure if this comment should go here, but:

I wish that one trick that is available to everyone (or everyone with the brew command) to determine what herb makes what pill were either eliminated or made only available to those with high-level brew (much as a high-level poisoning skill will reveal what type of poison is on a blade).

Re poison crafting:

Why not just make the 'poison' command more of a craft, rather than shifting it back?  I've always just RP'd a little bit of brewing when I go to apply a poison with the poison command.  While I definitely like the idea of more variables/unknowns in the poisoning/curing process (sort of a la nesselin's comment on how it used to work), I'm not quite sure I'm keen on the idea of a person without the 'poison' skill having the ability to apply poisons to a blade -- that strikes me as a skill.

If it isn't the case already, you should get negatives to 'poison' (at least in terms of applying it) if you are wearing gloves -- perhaps there could be a mastercraft 'tainting gloves' or something.

I think because poison isn't a craft skill, so to retrofit it to be a craft skill is a needless amount of work. May as well look under the hood of 'poison' as it pertains to being a non-crafting skill.

Relating it to 'potions' is interesting...Maybe there's something there. Having a trait 'Poison Resistance' (Unsure if there is this already) that could be built up over time would be rather cool too. In that way, a poisoner could try their wares, and also be more acutely aware of what they are being poisoned with.

Conversely, it may be interesting if people who are poisoned do not immediately know what poison they have. The onset of poison is typically quite fast, especially with weapons grade poisons. For weapons -- It makes sense. For ingested poisons, it might be cool to add agents that either enhance the speed or the potency of the poison.

For example -- You can make a 'Bloodburn' poison that is incredibly strong, but takes a long time to kick in. So if you were to poison someone's food, they would appear to be fine for a few hours, before suddenly a very potent version of Bloodburn kicks in.

Along these lines, it would be cool if tablets weren't a cure-all, but resolved a certain amount of the poison. So, a lesser cure for Bloodburn may stave off the effects for a certain amount of time, but the symptoms/poison effect will kick back in after that amount of time. A moderate cure for Bloodburn may help relieve the symptoms, but does not purge the poison from the body. A more potent version of the cure, derived from more rare materials, immediately cures the symptoms and purges the poison from the body.

For Terradin, a lesser cure may ameliorate the need to throw up your insides for a few hours, but then kicks back in. A moderate cure treats the symptoms, but does not purge the poison, and it may kick back in as long as you are affected by 'poison'. A more potent version of the cure, derived from more rare materials, immediately cures the symptoms and purges the poison from the body.

Also, being able to brew concoctions of combinations of poisons -- Skelebaine and Terradin, Peraine and Bloodburn, Heramide and Grishen -- May make for an even scarier unknown when facing a trained assassin. This is already possible via weapons (tainting two weapons with two different poisons), but allowing for more variability with ingested poison may make for interesting RP/plot opportunities as well.

Also, being able to administer a cure to someone else who is otherwise incapacitated would be nice. Say, a cure to Heramide by forcing them to swallow a tablet or drink from a vial.

Also, being able to craft an airborne poison (someone mentioned poison in incense earlier) would be a dream come true. Sleeping gas, anyone?

While we're at it: one nasty poison became extremely rare with the closure of Tuluk.  I'm not sure that's a good thing or a bad thing.

I'm down with extremely rare poisons. Peraine and Heramide shouldn't be growing on a tree, and honestly, I think most poison is easy to find if you know where to look.

It'd be cool if it related to the 'rare forageable' table stuff that Nergal rolled out with the Salt Flats, or if it could become related to that. So that even skinning it off a creature became rarer and less procedural. Perhaps even skinning it from a creature might poison you. Similarly, plucking it from a tree might poison you (Some poison already does this, but not all).

Foraging for poisons just makes it available to those with the most patience and ability to sink hours of time into boring tedium.

At least having to hunt or search dangerous areas for them provides some risk vs reward.

I do like the idea of making poisons a "craftable from raw materials" gig rather than a "pick and go" one.