This got mentioned in the Shadow so stronk thread, and is a bit off topic for that particular discussion, so I thought I would give it it's own topic before the helpers bust out their Loctite again.

The way it works now is that the script controlling access to the clan compound checks your status to see that you are in the clan before opening the gate for you. This will work the same whether you show up wearing full uniform, or show up completely naked, or show up wearing some other clan's full uniform. Since your average clan is comprised of hundreds, if not thousands of everyday grunts, there's no way the gate guard would know everyone's face, which is really the only way that this system makes IG sense.

So, would it be better if, instead of checking for your status in the clan, the gate script checked for one or more pieces of specific clan gear? So, for a Bynner this would be an aba and/or a patch. For Salarr this would be a collar or epaullette. For Kadius this would be sleeves. Etc, etc.

Hot.  I still think we need a disguise skill that would work in tangent with these kinds of applications.

While I like the idea...

1. Shadow allows for the intrigue of B&E already.  (Shadow with the kit on, hood up: pretty interesting scenario.)

2. A lot of clan members won't have their clan gear on (e.g., Kadians in fancy dresses, crew leaders, agents, etc.)

With (2) I can imagine it creating a lot of

wish all Ugh, left my epaulette inside the compound to go on this hot date.  Can I get in and get it please?


Yes, the gates should be keyed to something besides hard coded clans.  As it it right now I could go train up a burglar to be a master of all his skills, a literal shadow in the noon day sun, that can pick any lock, break into any apartment and steal your furniture if I wanted to (and was twinky enough).

Yet I can't fool that coded gate guard, he seems to know who everyone in the clan is, there is no tricking him and getting into that safe haven which is X Merchant House or X Byn Compound.

Quote from: nauta on April 04, 2016, 06:44:03 PM
1. Shadow allows for the intrigue of B&E already.  (Shadow with the kit on, hood up: pretty interesting scenario.)

Yes, but if this works when I'm wearing a full AOD guard uniform, it also works when I'm wearing a blaze orange jumpsuit. To be clear, part of the argument that spawned this tangeant was that it should be flat out impossible to shadow someone through a clan gate. So it's a give and take. (Though, if you shadowed a Salarri while wearing a Salarri uniform, it becomes more reasonable. But then we're back to the whole if it works for A it works for B thing.)

Quote from: nauta on April 04, 2016, 06:44:03 PM
2. A lot of clan members won't have their clan gear on (e.g., Kadians in fancy dresses, crew leaders, agents, etc.)

With (2) I can imagine it creating a lot of

Code Select Expand


wish all Ugh, left my epaulette inside the compound to go on this hot date.  Can I get in and get it please?


Yeah, but tough shit. When would that work on any bouncer ever? Maybe if your last name is also the name of the clan you could get away with this. But for peons, if you forget your sleeves you're going to need to way a clannie to help you out.

Quote from: Asmoth on April 04, 2016, 06:45:03 PM
Yes, the gates should be keyed to something besides hard coded clans.  As it it right now I could go train up a burglar to be a master of all his skills, a literal shadow in the noon day sun, that can pick any lock, break into any apartment and steal your furniture if I wanted to (and was twinky enough).

Yet I can't fool that coded gate guard, he seems to know who everyone in the clan is, there is no tricking him and getting into that safe haven which is X Merchant House or X Byn Compound.

Wait, what? Can't you just shadow someone in?

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on April 04, 2016, 06:53:31 PM
Yes, but if this works when I'm wearing a full AOD guard uniform, it also works when I'm wearing a blaze orange jumpsuit.


Inside the Salarri Compound [N, W, Quit, Save]
The tall figure in a hooded, bright pink sandcloth cloak is here.
The olive-skinned, blue-eyed man is here.


Shadowing something through clan gates and such is the only coded way to gain entry to such places, unless you inform staff and plan for an elaborate scene where they interact with you and place things (in my experience, these things rarely go well).

However, if you use stealth in this way, you will be called a twink, by those involved and staff alike, making it sort of an unwritten rule that you can't really break into those places.

Getting more realistic measures that won't have everyone upset at the methods used, and perhaps even making it less about stealth skills and more about planning, would be welcome.

Not to mention that it will actually put people on alert when Joe Recruit goes and gets eaten by a scrab two days in.

"Shit...did we recover his uniform!?"

"No, we just threw him on the pile."

Leader slaps Sergeant, "Fool, you NEVER leave a uniform laying around and unaccounted for."

Leader to Guards, "Keep an eye out for anyone you don't know, question everyone."

Quote from: Asmoth on April 04, 2016, 07:08:26 PM
Not to mention that it will actually put people on alert when Joe Recruit goes and gets eaten by a scrab two days in.

"Shit...did we recover his uniform!?"

"No, we just threw him on the pile."

Leader slaps Sergeant, "Fool, you NEVER leave a uniform laying around and unaccounted for."

Leader to Guards, "Keep an eye out for anyone you don't know, question everyone."

So you're saying staff need to be on 24/7 standby to re-flag the NPCs, so that the NPCs will now stop everyone at the gates and confirm their affiliation by something other than their uniform, because someone tossed a dead clannie on the pile and the leader told the guards to keep an eye out for anyone they don't know.

And then of course - the staff will now have to RE-re-flag the NPCs to revert back to only checking the uniform, once the dead guy's stuff is recovered or the potential thief is caught.

Sounds like way too much work, and way too much room for error, and way too much responsibility dumped on the staff's shoulders.

It used to be just gear-specific, but it was changed. I'm guessing it was changed because gear-specific entry resulted in way too much stupidity/work/errors/twinkage for everyone.

Quote from: Armaddict on April 04, 2016, 07:03:08 PM
However, if you use stealth in this way, you will be called a twink, by those involved and staff alike, making it sort of an unwritten rule that you can't really break into those places.

Getting more realistic measures that won't have everyone upset at the methods used, and perhaps even making it less about stealth skills and more about planning, would be welcome.

This is true. Shadowing someone into the Salarri compound wearing rinthi gear is twinkish. On the opposite side of the coin, finding a dead Salarri, throwing on their gear, strolling in at 6AM Monday morning (or some other off peak time), and casually loading their entire warehouse into my backpack isn't such good RP either.

Maybe a better solution is that shadowing players into a Clan compound is impossible UNLESS you're wearing clan gear. So there's a nested check.

If (Shadower is not clanned)
   if ( shadowers inventory contains clan items )
         Allow sneak check to be made. It can still fail, but not automatically.
    else
         Sneak check auto-fails.
    end
end

This is fair to both parties and makes it difficult to cry foul.  (Note, it would only apply to entering the compound. People shouldn't scrutinize you as you leave.)

Quote from: Asmoth on April 04, 2016, 07:08:26 PM
Not to mention that it will actually put people on alert when Joe Recruit goes and gets eaten by a scrab two days in.

This is also a great side effect. Clans will actually care when their gear goes missing.


Fuck, the Byn might as well dismantle their gate and use the wood to make shields though. :p

Quote from: Lizzie on April 04, 2016, 07:13:32 PM
So you're saying staff need to be on 24/7 standby to re-flag the NPCs, so that the NPCs will now stop everyone at the gates and confirm their affiliation by something other than their uniform, because someone tossed a dead clannie on the pile and the leader told the guards to keep an eye out for anyone they don't know.

And then of course - the staff will now have to RE-re-flag the NPCs to revert back to only checking the uniform, once the dead guy's stuff is recovered or the potential thief is caught.

I think you're taking him too literally.

Quote from: Lizzie on April 04, 2016, 07:13:32 PM
It used to be just gear-specific, but it was changed. I'm guessing it was changed because gear-specific entry resulted in way too much stupidity/work/errors/twinkage for everyone.

This I could believe.

Quote from: Lizzie on April 04, 2016, 07:13:32 PM

Quote from: Asmoth on April 04, 2016, 07:08:26 PM
Not to mention that it will actually put people on alert when Joe Recruit goes and gets eaten by a scrab two days in.

"Shit...did we recover his uniform!?"

"No, we just threw him on the pile."

Leader slaps Sergeant, "Fool, you NEVER leave a uniform laying around and unaccounted for."

Leader to Guards, "Keep an eye out for anyone you don't know, question everyone."

So you're saying staff need to be on 24/7 standby to re-flag the NPCs, so that the NPCs will now stop everyone at the gates and confirm their affiliation by something other than their uniform, because someone tossed a dead clannie on the pile and the leader told the guards to keep an eye out for anyone they don't know.

And then of course - the staff will now have to RE-re-flag the NPCs to revert back to only checking the uniform, once the dead guy's stuff is recovered or the potential thief is caught.

Sounds like way too much work, and way too much room for error, and way too much responsibility dumped on the staff's shoulders.

It used to be just gear-specific, but it was changed. I'm guessing it was changed because gear-specific entry resulted in way too much stupidity/work/errors/twinkage for everyone.

No, because if was changed to item based, then they wouldn't need to code anything beyond that.  And I think Jack here is right, you're taking me too literally.

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on April 04, 2016, 07:16:09 PM
Maybe a better solution is that shadowing players into a Clan compound is impossible UNLESS you're wearing clan gear. So there's a nested check.

Code Select Expand


If (Shadower is not clanned)
   if ( shadowers inventory contains clan items )
         Allow sneak check to be made. It can still fail, but not automatically.
    else
         Sneak check auto-fails.
    end
end

This is fair to both parties and makes it difficult to cry foul.  (Note, it would only apply to entering the compound. People shouldn't scrutinize you as you leave.)

This I like.  Another weird thing about clan compounds and sneaks to take into account: the sneak can't leave unless they shadow someone back out -- I mean under the current code.

Right, I think the example was given to show that clan gear would be important as more than just membership tokens.  There's security at stake, man!


All those favors from 'rinthers who return byn cloaks would actually be really nice gestures!

Quote from: nauta on April 04, 2016, 07:20:38 PM

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on April 04, 2016, 07:16:09 PM
Maybe a better solution is that shadowing players into a Clan compound is impossible UNLESS you're wearing clan gear. So there's a nested check.

Code Select Expand


If (Shadower is not clanned)
   if ( shadowers inventory contains clan items )
         Allow sneak check to be made. It can still fail, but not automatically.
    else
         Sneak check auto-fails.
    end
end

This is fair to both parties and makes it difficult to cry foul.  (Note, it would only apply to entering the compound. People shouldn't scrutinize you as you leave.)

This I like.  Another weird thing about clan compounds and sneaks to take into account: the sneak can't leave unless they shadow someone back out -- I mean under the current code.

Correct, and I once got trapped in a compound for two real life days, because I was afraid that if I WISHED for help, they would have the Merchant House murder me for trespassing and it took that long to catch a merchant who was blind enough to allow me to shadow them out.  That shouldn't happen.

Quote from: nauta on April 04, 2016, 07:20:38 PM

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on April 04, 2016, 07:16:09 PM
Maybe a better solution is that shadowing players into a Clan compound is impossible UNLESS you're wearing clan gear. So there's a nested check.

Code Select Expand


If (Shadower is not clanned)
   if ( shadowers inventory contains clan items )
         Allow sneak check to be made. It can still fail, but not automatically.
    else
         Sneak check auto-fails.
    end
end

This is fair to both parties and makes it difficult to cry foul.  (Note, it would only apply to entering the compound. People shouldn't scrutinize you as you leave.)

This I like.  Another weird thing about clan compounds and sneaks to take into account: the sneak can't leave unless they shadow someone back out -- I mean under the current code.

This is part of the code that encourages twinky behavior.  It's pretty much the only way to actually get things done that sometimes, you're even hired to do.

In my head, over time, it has become something where I have to either think of it the way most people will think of it, which is me directly following someone through their gate...or I can think of it through interpretation, where them going through the gate allows for the distraction for my guy to vault up over the wall nearby.  There's no code for alternative entrances; there is a single way into every compound in the game, unless you want someone monitoring your every move and processing it with an air of skepticism (in which case you'll almost always be caught; there simply aren't enough alternative ways to get things done unless they'll hand hold and make happen everything you want them to.)

Modified for DISCLAIMER: Don't come at me, I'm not sneaking into compounds and haven't done so for a very long time because of the issues being talked about and the concern that I'll be slapped with bad staff press for trying to find an alternative narrative that fits the happenings.  I am just pointing out that it's behavior that sneakies get kind of pigeonholed into in order to reach goals given to them by other people, often, when they're for hire.

Quote from: Armaddict on April 04, 2016, 07:30:17 PM
There's no code for alternative entrances; there is a single way into every compound in the game, unless you want someone monitoring your every move and processing it with an air of skepticism (in which case you'll almost always be caught; there simply aren't enough alternative ways to get things done unless they'll hand hold and make happen everything you want them to.)

You preach the truth, good sir.

I still like the idea, though code heavy, of it working on both. Check if member of clan, check for clan gear flag. That way a sneaky character can use a disguise skill to temporarily gain recruit-coded entry. But if you are wearing the clan gear flag, and NOT a member of the clan, its immediate wanted status.

That'd be kinda neat, I think. It wouldn't stop people from shadow/hiding and waiting to walk in behind someone else, but it'd make the having a dozen Byn abas worthwhile.

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on April 04, 2016, 07:16:09 PM

Code Select Expand


If (Shadower is not clanned)
   if ( shadowers inventory contains clan items )
         Allow sneak check to be made. It can still fail, but not automatically.
    else
         Sneak check auto-fails.
    end
end


Step 1: to attain access to house Fale, kill a current Fale noble.
Step 1.5: keep killing them until you get some clan gear.
Step 2: wait a couple weeks, shadow new Fale noble into house.
Step 2 (alternate): sign up for role call for new Fale noble.

Just let them shadow through the gate if they can sneak past the guard, but don't let them just auto pass because they are following someone like normally happens at a gate. If they can sneak past the guard normally and the locked gate is the only issue, then the noble was only important for getting the gates opened a split second.

Quote from: Riev on April 04, 2016, 08:43:23 PM
That'd be kinda neat, I think. It wouldn't stop people from shadow/hiding and waiting to walk in behind someone else, but it'd make the having a dozen Byn abas worthwhile.

Master sneak, free stew 4 lyfe.

I think yes.
but if it was removed from the game there must of been a reason.
I still say yes, because I have no knowledge of what that reason actually is, and I'm selfish enough to really like the idea of spies being able to spy.

However many people - even the NPC guards themselves roleplay as if they actually do remember every face and name that passes through ''their'' gates.
Of course we can retcon it and it'd be an ''equal'' trade - roleplay of awesome memory for recognizing the uniform

but... seriously, guards /do/ remember faces and they do remember names. If a guard saw someone they didn't recognize they'd think twice. I would think that even if you weren't in a clan wearing the cloak with the hood up and you were following someone into the compound, they'd stop you to see who you were and maybe ask questions before allowing you to breech their defenses. That's their job.
It's not like ten people get walked to the gate at once...
"Hey, guard guy! This is nancy, sue, peter, jeff, greg, mikal, steve, bob, randy, and amos. Remember all their names and faces! Ha ha! See ya later, buddy."

Hm. It makes less sense when you think about how the guard never sleeps or has anyone else take his post. /then/ it would make sense that a guard would not have any memory of you. ... of course they'd just stop you and wait for assurance from some higher up figure or the person that did the hiring. It would make more sense for a guard not to let you in at all if they didn't recognize your face rather than your uniform.
If I were a guard, I don't think I'd let people get passed me wearing anything that hides their features.

I work in a building with 500 people and the guards only took about a week to start greeting me by name every morning. Which isn't a statement against the idea in general (INSERT GIANT DISCLAIMER HERE) but more a comment that I don't think it's unrealistic for the guards to remember every employee's face and name. That's what they're paid for.

I think of it less in terms of 'Should this guard recognize and remember every face' and more in terms of 'Should this compound be absolutely impregnable?'

Unless we want to code/write every individual way for that compound to not be impregnable, making some general 'This will work' avenues is necessary, even if they're not easy to pull off.

Gates should always open for OK clan membership.

Gates should have a chance of opening based on clan gear.

• Should probably be based off sneak, hide, or a combination thereof.
• Failure of a gate check should result in criminal status.
• Failure of a gate check for certain clans should probably result in the guards trying to WTFpwn you.
• The larger the clan (including VNPCs), the easier it should be to get past gate guards.