Amongst ourselves (the staff), we have been discussing various ideas for tweaking/improving the in-game experience of clan cooks.  There are a handful of advantages and disadvantages to the current system, from an IC and OOC perspective.  Having discussed possible alternatives for a while now, we've come up with a few.

We'd like to know which of these alternatives you prefer, or if you have your own ideas.

It's worth noting that this does not reflect on cooks already in place which serve the nobility, or high-ranking merchant family members.  Mainly we're talking about the grunts of the house, low-level employees and so on.

I'll elaborate on the alternatives I've put in the poll:

1. Remove them entirely -- no more clan cooks.  Let employees find food on their own.  This might need to be counter by an increase in pay for some clans.
2. Cooks only remove hunger -- this would mean that, if you went to a clan cook for food, they would "virtually" serve you food, leaving you satiated, but not actually give you a piece of food you can carry with you.
3. Cooks deliver crappier food -- this would mean that instead of getting fresh fruit and hearty steaks, you might get hard-tack (biscuits) or leftovers, gristle, and so on (perhaps slightly better, perhaps slightly worse, perhaps even way worse).  The food would still alleviate hunger, but it would not be appetizing or salable.
4. Leave them the same -- hopefully this doesn't need much explanation.
5. Other -- give us your own ideas.

Obviously, for some clans, these ideas might have to be tweaked a bit to be reasonable.  For the most part, what I'm interested in is having your overall gut feeling on the matter, not in what you'd do specifically with each clan (too IC, anyway).

-- X

I can't choose specifically.

The options that appeal to me are:
1. Remove them entirely
2. Leave them the same

In regards to the first, the amount of huntable game and the amount of meat from each kill needs to go up a great deal. This particularly applies in the South. In the north, only the amount from each kill needs to be adjusted. Vegetables and fruits are also things that need to be much better represented, in both the North and the South. This helps two things: it forces minor low-level adventure, and it enhances the call of cooks.

Otherwise, I think the current situation is fine. The cook in my clan already delivers crappy food to the lower ranks. In fact, it's really crappy, and I frankly would rather see variety.

I'll vote to remove them entirely, but you must note the stipulations.

This might be an idea for V.2 but...

Make it so that cooks can be "brought out" under certain circumstances. One possibility would be to codedly link a foodbin to a cook NPC. If the bin is empty, the cook comes out. I have been in a city-based clan that had no clan cook, and it was extremely difficult to keep up with the food bin. The employees were -mostly- working in, out of, and hired by the opposite city's part of the clan. So getting to where the food was actually needed took a lot of OOC coordination for RP times, all to feed a single PC who happened to not work with the rest of us. And she had an IC boss, who had access to a coded cook, who -could've- filled up the bin for her and just let us know that next time we came down to stock up.

It's also crazy hard when you're dealing with a lot of people who are *not* rangers. Only rangers start out with a decent skinning skill, and only rangers can forage food. So if you are relying on 5 newbie warriors to take down enough food to feed all five, plus 2 crafters, and one PC merchant, chances are you're gonna be eating a LOT of travel cakes and kalan fruits for a very long time.

But, if you raise the salaries to cover the pay for food, you give them less reason to get meat. And you give less need for any of those people to be rangers.

So I'd like to see some way of tying the "current accessability to PC-acquired food" with "NPC Cook."

I would also ask if this has anything to do with the way in which water is currently handled. Would we also be forced to gather our own water, or would that continue to be provided?

I voted "Other" because I would like to keep NPC cooks that deliver actual food-objects for the following reasons:

• NPC cooks are extremely useful for greasing the wheels of a clan's infrastructure.  Despite play times, off-peak players, and the ebb and flow of certain characters, PC's who are part of the organization can get the very basics to keep alive and progressing as they interact with the game world.
• I enjoy food objects and eating those foods.  Slurping a bowl of stew, tearing off a hunk of bread, cutting into a tandu sausage, it's a prop that can be used to aid in the display of several different moods.
• NPC Cooks are a nice buffer between the virtual and NPC world of a clan, giving that organization a sense of size and scope beyond the coded representatives.  Room echoes detailing hunters bringing in food to the cooks, employees lining up for their portion, and other such messages can help enhance the atmosphere and make a person feel part of something larger than themselves.

Here are some potential changes/suggestions:

• Give NPC cooks a limit of food that can be dispensed every few IC hours or perhaps every IC day.  Then someone hoarding the food or taking more than their share can create some internal conflict with the rest of the clan members, which is always good.
• Give NPC cooks less fancy food to distribute indefinitely, but allow PC's to give cooks raw food products (i.e. meat, flour, cheese, eggs) and see some additional food(s) added to the menu.  That might give PC's an incentive to track down specific cooking materials as well as a real benefit to those hunters bringing in loads of fresh meat.
• Give clans the ability to ration out the amount of food a cook will serve based on clan ranks.  For example, perhaps Runners in the T'zai-Byn only get one bowl of stew every 3 IC hours.

I'm sure there are plenty of other good suggestions, but those are ones that come immediately to mind.

-LoD

Quote from: Xygax on September 11, 2008, 03:14:07 PM
There are a handful of advantages and disadvantages to the current system, from an IC and OOC perspective. 

I don't really feel I can give an opinion without knowing what the staff thinks the problem is.

Problems I've seen in the current system:
-- Clans which rely on hunters to get food for grunts are screwed if there are no hunters, or no game, or neither of those things where the PCs who need the food are.
-- Clans which rely on NPC cooks to provide food for grunts are sometimes dependent on leaders to acquire that food in order to then turn around and provide it to the grunts. Burdensome on leaders.
-- Clans which provide no food at all will probably under-pay. Does Amos get the same salary as Malik, even though he plays twice as much and therefore requires twice as much coded food?
-- Playing in a clan which provides no food can feel really burdensome. One of the supposed advantages to being clanned is that type of support. If it goes away, that's less incentive for PCs to be clanned. (Not everyone enjoys scraping for food or doing their own cooking.)
-- Another disadvantage to clans providing no coded food is that trips out of the city--on RPTs or whatever--become that much more problematic to arrange. It's already difficult to make sure every minion is toting food and water.

I guess my gut feel is that I'm very against clans not providing any coded food at all. But I can't say what I'm for since I don't know what the staff's design goal is.

Make food recipes a lot more accessible to everyone and a subclass dedicated to being a cook and I can guarantee you that you'll see plenty of PCs who are just happy to be "cooks" in game.

I know for a fact that on Harshlands and SoI, the role of a cook is always a very popular one, for some reason, a certain group of players just enjoy taking care of others and being a "motherly" figure.

The problem on Arm is that it's so hard to come up with recipes that people mostly give up after figuring out how to make travel cakes.

My idea --> I think that PCs who take the "cook" subclass should have access to a special NPC that would only give them ingredients to cook with, and no one else but the flagged cook could use said ingredients
to cook for others in the clan.

Quote from: Malken on September 11, 2008, 03:38:39 PM
Make food recipes a lot more accessible to everyone and a subclass dedicated to being a cook and I can guarantee you that you'll see plenty of PCs who are just happy to be "cooks" in game.

I would play the hell out of that.  I'm a food nerd (on top of an English and music nerd), so this appeals to me mightily.

Quote from: Malken on September 11, 2008, 03:38:39 PMMy idea --> I think that PCs who take the "cook" subclass should have access to a special NPC that would only give them ingredients to cook with, and no one else but the flagged cook could use said ingredients
to cook for others in the clan.

Perhaps have this linked not to the character's subguild, but to a new clan role, "Cook."  It can likely be assumed that there are NPC hunters also bringing in ingredients, so there can be an NPC that can hand out ingredients to anyone assigned the Cook job, for that person to cook up and put somewhere for clan members.

Quote from: LoD on September 11, 2008, 03:31:57 PM

• Give NPC cooks less fancy food to distribute indefinitely, but allow PC's to give cooks raw food products (i.e. meat, flour, cheese, eggs) and see some additional food(s) added to the menu.  That might give PC's an incentive to track down specific cooking materials as well as a real benefit to those hunters bringing in loads of fresh meat.

I like this one a great deal.

In fact, this one suggestion right here is the best senario possible. The best of both worlds is embodied here.

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on September 11, 2008, 03:42:45 PM

Quote from: LoD on September 11, 2008, 03:31:57 PM

• Give NPC cooks less fancy food to distribute indefinitely, but allow PC's to give cooks raw food products (i.e. meat, flour, cheese, eggs) and see some additional food(s) added to the menu.  That might give PC's an incentive to track down specific cooking materials as well as a real benefit to those hunters bringing in loads of fresh meat.

I like this one a great deal.

As do I.

I also remain in favor of a Cook subguild with a high starting skill in cooking and perhaps a bonus to obtaining meat while skinning and food while foraging (as any well-trained real-life cook is able to break down an animal carcass fairly well, as well as being able to recognize good, fresh ingredients in a variety of contexts).

I agree with LOD's and Note's ideas.

Quote from: Delstro on September 11, 2008, 03:55:16 PM
I agree with LOD's and Note's ideas.

Thoughts:
(a) Is there a problem with people selling clan food?  If so, I'd rather see quantities limited and offenders punished.  Most clans have stuff more valuable than food to steal, I'd think.
(b) Many employees need to pack food when they leave the walls: not a good match for idea #2.
(c) Is clan food "too rich" for commoners?  What I've seen is quite appetizing, but that's one of the benefits of joining a clan, I'd suppose.
(d) Cooks could provide a basic menu to recruits/grunts/privates and offer more delicate items to officers and other superiors.
(e) Cooks could refuse to provide food to low-level employees except at dawn, noon, and dusk.  Or they might provide only nasty scraps at other times.
(f) Cooks could charge a small fee per meal (in conjunction with a salary tweak), and provide travel ration packs to officer PCs to be issued as appropriate.

Looking very wrothsome, the rugged, lovelocked man asks you, in sirihish,
  "How'n the Krath did you 'lose' yer RATION PACK?"

I'd love to see meals served at particular times from a varying menu.  On plates.  With a small allowance of disgusting liquor.  Attempting to steal plates from said cook would make the cook...angry.  And you really don't want to make your clan cook angry.

I've twice played non-combat characters in clans without NPC cooks. It wasn't pleasant. Take the fun of having to nag your boss for sids, and double it. That's how it felt.

I feel like the economy is already tipped in favor of independents in a big way, so I think we should keep that in mind.

On the other hand, it would be a plus for realism and a boon for rangers. I just think it's really bad for playability, in my experience.

My suggestion: Limit how much an NPC cook would give out to about enough food to get from starving up to full in any given day, or something like that. Or two of each item. Or whatever. Maybe also consider flagging clan food so that it can't be sold in shops.

Quote from: LoD on September 11, 2008, 03:31:57 PM

• Give NPC cooks less fancy food to distribute indefinitely, but allow PC's to give cooks raw food products (i.e. meat, flour, cheese, eggs) and see some additional food(s) added to the menu.  That might give PC's an incentive to track down specific cooking materials as well as a real benefit to those hunters bringing in loads of fresh meat.

To expound:

>ask cook help
The pudgy, worn-eyed man says to you, in sirihish:
   "I offer gut stew, dried beetle jerky, or a gribage."
The pudgy, worn-eyed man says to you, in sirihish:
   "I've got nothing in the bin right now, though, so that's all you can get."

>offer flank
The pudgy, worn-eyed man says to you, in sirihish:
   "Hmmm. I can make a tender flank of carru from that."

>sell flank
The pudgy, worn-eyed man says to you, in sirihish:
   "Thanks."
The pudgy, worn-eyed man sets a bloody flank of meat on a bone grill.

(crafting delay)

The pudgy, worn-eyed man puts a grilled flank of carru meat into a wooden food bin.

>get meat bin
The pudgy, worn-eyed man won't let anyone near the wooden food bin.

>ask cook help
The pudgy, worn-eyed man says to you, in sirihish:
   "I offer gut stew, dried beetle jerky, or a gribage."
The pudgy, worn-eyed man says to you, in sirihish:
   "I've got a grilled flank of carru meat in the bin, too."

>offer horn
After a moment, the pudgy, worn-eyed man says to you, in sirihish:
   "Yeh, I can't do nothing with that."

Have clan cooks give out a single "meal" object that would provide a reasonable amount of filling-up, but can only be requested once or twice per day. Also have clan cooks infinitely give out smaller, relatively boring foods that PCs can still carry with them. In my mind this is sort of a "leave it how it is + clan cooks remove hunger" combination.

'ask cook help' "I have a meal of mekillot steak with raptor nuggets on the side, or you can have bread, grilled skeet, or cheese."

'ask cook meal' The cook gives you a plate of mekillot steak with raptor nuggets.

You are very hungry.

'eat meal' You are no longer hungry.

'ask cook meal' (again) The cook says to you, "I remember you... you had your meal already! You have to wait x hours before you're entitled to another."

Flag the meal so it gets ruined if you put it in a container, so you don't have an ultra-light instant Lifesaver handy, and you're set.

I always found it strange that mere hunters were fed unlimited amounts of honey-glazed, ginka-sauced bahamet steaks, when you consider that the ingredients used for one portion of that meal is probably more than
they'd make in a week, if not month, of work..

Clan food is good because regularly, food is far too expensive or harder to come by than it should be.  The benefits of clan food are that they keep you fed, even if you're an offpeak crafter in a clan with no hunters.  The drawbacks are that some clan foods are so fancy, why WOULDN'T you take some food home to stock up on or to pass out to friends?  I currently only rarely cook anything, ever, because it's far too expensive and time consuming to craft a bunch of raw food into worthless crap (that doesn't feed me better even when I do do it right), ESPECIALLY when I can get a nice, hearty, healthy prepared meal from a clan chef.  In a style far better than anything my character could reasonably expect to make.

In the absence of a major overhaul (for which I would favor a more limited clan food system like one of those discussed) I would vote for having crappier clan food.  It would keep people fed even if they can't reasonably feed themselves, but without the availability of crazy-wealthy-style foods in some clans that is just mind boggling.

Brytta and flurry summed up my thoughts pretty nicely.

What are the problems driving discussion on this change? I wonder if there might be other solutions that don't involve clan cooks at all.

Limiting the amount of food isn't helpful to any clan that has members going out on long missions away from the cook. If the group is out, they don't know that they'll encounter - and successfully kill and skin - enough meaty critters to feed the entire group during the entire time they're out.

Also I like the idea of making NPC-made clan food unsellable in markets.

Have them remove hunger.

I get tired of spam-eating three bowls of "8-eats-per-bowl" Byn stew.

Not a fan of OOC restrictions on IC items.

Fill hunger + low-quality "always available" items is the best compromise I see.

It depends on the Clan.

Big mess hall type places, should have somewhere you can go in and get your 'hunger' sated. Having them just give crappy food that you then have to eat 20 servings of only makes for spam. It would leave more room for roleplaying too, eating at your own pace.

I think there are probably too many cook NPCs, and too many give too much of too good of food. So outside mess hall situations, people should need to acquire their own food.

Xygax,

If it is something you can discuss, was there a reason other than what we have mentioned here as to why the staff was considering a change?

-FW

Quote from: Qzzrbl on September 11, 2008, 05:00:36 PM
Have them remove hunger.

I get tired of spam-eating three bowls of "8-eats-per-bowl" Byn stew.

No.  Hunger and thirst code are good in my opinion if annoying at times.

Brandon