I want to propose that existing characters could use an available spec-apps to change their sub-guild to something else. Maybe this could be done with some limitations, for example many sub-guilds have similar stat bonuses for a reason, so if you picked a strength sub-guild maybe you can only change to another strength sub-guild. Staff would need to remove skills or lower some skills to class levels if not present in new sub-guild, while other skills would appear untrained. You would not be able to change to or from a touched/magick sub-guild.

This could really help breathe new life to older existing characters, and give people a chance to RP different path in a character life without having to just rolling something new.  I know from my own experiences that I've felt I wish I could go back in time and choose differently while others have ICly lamented the same.   

This sounds like it would create a lot of additional staff labor for an amount of utility that is by comparison rather small. Perhaps if effort were put into creating a tool to do this very easily this would be something I can get behind.

That does sound like a lot of extra work.

I would make advanced starts separate from Special Apps, removing the 2 a year limit. I think if you reach a point with an existing character where you're thinking of changing their subguild or something, it may just be time to move on to a new pc. Sometimes we reach the end of a character and are too afraid to move on through storing, but you don't really have anything more to say. If they change advanced starts so if you have the Karma, you can app one, then you can switch more easily to the next character, without having to worry about having to start the grind all over. The system is already in place for it, so it wouldn't be a lot of extra work. It would just take one person to set up a character once and that would only take a few minutes per pc.

ETA: There are a bunch of race based and magick based karma options in chargen, but none really for mundanes that don't require a special app.

Some quick thoughts:

1. In the past items, stats, skills and other goodies have been awarded to certain players at the discretion of staff. Some more transparency, cost and limits on these rewards would beneficial to the game. I am okay with the answer being its too much work for staff to provide this or any other in-game benefits/changes to players, as long as its applied equally across the board.

2. Any in-game benefits could be tied not only to spec-apps limit but also days played. For example, you can't apply for an in-game benefit, costing an existing special app unless you've played 30 or 40 days on a character. Any effort to encourage logins and in-game activity is likely time well spent. Older existing characters have the potential to drive more plots, events and provide meaningful interactions to newer character, keeping them around with some incentives not only helps the game but also makes permadeath more meaningful when they finally die.

My understanding of the reason for limited specapp and customcraft slots is because each of those requests will often take up a lot time. By gatekeeping those requests based on time it ensures staff have enough time to do other things.

Rather than a whole retcon of previous to add a new - I'd think a "delayed start" option might be interesting.

Basically an advanced start. Except you can have up to 3 skills not yet declared. At a set time, you can then select "up to" 1 combat skill plus your choice of 2 utility/stealth skills or 1 utility/stealth + 1 craft skill. These newly acquired skills would start at high novice/low apprentice, and max out at high jman or low advanced. If you're playing a mage/sub with no weapon skills at all, you can swap out your new combat skill for a weapon skill, which would start at novice and max out at mid-level jman.

Once the time is ready, you can put in for them at any point, but they'd be given to you all at once. You can't stagger the timing on each one. If you only select 2 additional skills, you can't change your mind a week after the staff gives them to you and ask for the third.

I'm not a fan personally.  This would add a fair amount of work, and there's a limited number of people to do the work.  And for what is, in my opinion, not much gain.  I'm just not seeing it from where I'm sitting.

This original idea is not a hill I'll die on. But I will say, people don't always die in this game, they store.

It takes a lot of time and effort on the players side to create a character concept they enjoy playing regardless of code, interactions and plots. This is especially true because after a while playing players tend to become very good at surviving and soon they have most skills trained, all the coins you want and all the things you need as well. Plots, interactions and stories are not guaranteed either, it takes player effort and sometimes luck to create, find or involve themselves in plots they themselves will enjoy.

Telling players to just create new characters should their late game get stale is certainly a bold strategy for player retention, but I don't fully believe that the decision always goes the way the game will hope.   

While I like the underlying idea, there is a sense where the idea is: It's a lot of time and effort to store and to come up with a new character idea.  So rather than the player taking on that effort, we're asking the staff to take on the effort of coming up with a new mechanic and overseeing it.

I'm not trying to shoot down your idea - I do think it would be super cool.  Just saying there may not be a straightforward way to do this that limits staff time and involvement.

I'm actually on the complete opposite end of this from Hal, and this is something I've actually pitched (read: begged for) in the past.

My idea was to introduce this for very long-lived characters only, those who've been around for over a real-life year with high days played, so as not to add a huge burden on staff, but still offering progression options for characters whose stories have taken a sharp turn away from where they started. Imagine a city-based PC who suddenly has to go on the lam with Crimson Wind, it makes sense that they'd start picking up new skills while neglecting those from their former life. It's natural to evolve and adapt your skills as you age. There are tons of things I could do when I was younger that I can't anymore, but there are also things I can do now that I couldn't before. It's not unrealistic.

I'm not entirely sure what it would involve on our side, whether it's just a matter of setting a new subguild, unsetting some skills, and setting new ones, or if not being able to reset the PC would mean a mess with skillcaps.

Some of the most incredible stories come from long-lived PCs, and I think having a mechanic to support and enable those PCs to keep evolving, even if their lives take an unexpected twist, would be fantastic and nothing but good. I know the feeling of having to store a beloved, long-lived PC because they ended up in a situation where their skillset was no longer tenable and it's honestly such a waste creatively.

I love this Usiku.  A real life year is a very long milestone though, and I can't tell you how many of my characters have had that mid life crisis at month 2-3 and I start considering storage. 

What if every non-magick subclass character got the ability to change their subguild without the need for staff intervention, and that ability reset every RL year?  So if your character ends up in a completely different spot and you want to adapt you can, once per year.  I'm thinking something like subguild none, but with a reset.

Honestly, just wrap it around the learn mechanic.

After a certain amount of time (months since creation + playtime both) unlock the ability to "learn sneak for stonecrafting".

Sneak is added if they don't have it, or goes up by a certain number of points. Stonecrafting goes down by the same amount of points.  No gain on both skills.

Only allow it to be raised by learns.  Skill can only go up as far points wise as the other skill goes down. Only allow certain skills to qualify to be added or removed. And whatever other guardrails.  No Staff intervention required.

No need for changed subclasses.  Downside is the abilities like stealth terrain, wilderness quit, etc.  Not sure what would need to be done to enable this, but I would favor only ever being able to switch one or two such abilities over the lifetime of a character.  Using the same new learn mechanic, one for another.

I don't think a full subguild swap would make much sense. A lot of those subguilds come with things like - listen. Or climb. Things you can do in any situation where there are things to hear, and things to climb.

Instead, I'd still rather see something more on the order of what I suggested above - but perhaps a skill swap.

Someone who fits whatever criteria you come up with, can swap UP TO 3 skills. You could opt to lose 2 combat skills in exchange for 1 weapon skill. Or lose 1 combat skill in exchange for a combat skill you don't currently have.  You can swap 1 utility skill for another utility skill, or 2 utility skills for a crafting skill. You can swap one crafting skill for a different crafting skill. The total number of skills you give up can be whatever you want, but you can gain no more than 3 skills.

I could see each skill you gain starting at mid-novice or high-novice, and reach mid-jman for weapon type, and high jman or low advanced for any of the other ones.

I can ALSO see mages have these options, but they wouldn't be allowed to swap any of their spells. They'd only be allowed to swap their non-magick skills from their main or subguild, with only mundane skills. They have fewer to give up, so I doubt many would take advantage of it anyway.

I'd much rather see the option for PCs to learn a couple skills throughout their life based on the RP they've had: something like a sub-subguild that is only able to be picked after XXX time spent in game.

Quote from: Lizzie on August 28, 2024, 01:03:46 PMI don't think a full subguild swap would make much sense.

The sub-classes are already balanced in what they offer and what they don't. 

If you let people swap or choose specific skills, it may create unbalance custom builds even with lot of staff oversight and approval.  My original idea is only proposing code that removes any skills or flags not present in the main class, as well as any skills that have not met branching requirements of the main class/race(backstab, sap, archery, etc), effectively setting the character to sub-guild none. I am not saying there is no effort to code here, but just saying the logic of the idea is simple.

That said, whatever benefits or options are offered for existing character should really be tied in with active days played, not just time passed alone.

So for me, I do not think this game is about balance. I am pretty comfortable from experience to say some subguild/guilds are not balanced with others, sometimes from a playability perspective and sometimes from just a straight coded skill perspective.

If over the course of a year played  you had the option to pick up a few skills, could that be unbalancing, sure. Is it game breaking? Probably not.

I would rather not have to swap skills or choose a new subguild because that feels like it would completely put you back into the same place where in another month or so you go, I chose wrong, well I could really use that skill again now. Which is where most people are already at when they lead to storing, at least where I am usually at.

I think it'd be better to look at options for adding. In my opinion this is not a competitive esports game. Certainly we want variance, we do not want there to be a "best choice" but also it does not need to be incredibly balanced.

If a mechanic is put in, track how people are using it, if over time we start seeing some guild/subguild combos with specific alternative skills adding being just the go to, then maybe it'd be time to adjust the system.

I would like something similar to SOI, Atonement, etc, where you can pick starting skills with the ability to learn other skills through doing the thing over and over and through lessons from other players. Starting skill levels would depend on how many starting skills you selected in chargen with a minimum and maximum allotted number. I don't know the details of their programming, so I don't know if it's even possible with Arm's coding. 

Quote from: OutridersDontExist on August 28, 2024, 02:00:42 PMI'd much rather see the option for PCs to learn a couple skills throughout their life based on the RP they've had: something like a sub-subguild that is only able to be picked after XXX time spent in game.

This is something I've always wanted to see more of. Just staff watching PCs do things, and if you spend enough time in the right environments, doing things, potentially getting a skill (or multiple) you wouldn't otherwise have. That could be handled on a one on one basis but I do see staff maybe not wanting to bother. Another thing could be set up, like whatever script staff runs for advanced starts, that essentially allows a staff member to grant a specific skill maybe?

If that could be set up where a staff member picks up the 'embiggening wand of skinning' and grants people basic skill in it, to a determined cap by whatever governing skills, that would be cool. Maybe you could only request such a thing with a certain amount of RL time in an environment/clan/learning from someone, on a PC for a relevant skill. If your PC lives 3RL months with some undetermined amount of time played minimum between each 'new' thing, you can put in a request for a new skill. Just some thoughts off the top of my head.

Quote from: Lotion on August 27, 2024, 12:54:52 AMThis sounds like it would create a lot of additional staff labor for an amount of utility that is by comparison rather small. Perhaps if effort were put into creating a tool to do this very easily this would be something I can get behind.

I like Lotion's point.  All of these ideas, while really cool, are expensive solutions to a small (but arguably very painful) problem.  I would much rather we have a solution that solves 80% of this problem with a simple, low effort fix. 

I'm not on board yet.


Example 1:

Someone picked Elkros + Swordsman
- They get parry, disarm, riposte, slashing weapons, two-handed boost, and watch.

They use a special app to change their subclass to master brewer.

I would have to:
remove parry
remove disarm
remove riposte
remove slashing weapons
adjust two-handed boost down.
adjust watch down.
add brew
adjust alcohol tolerance up.
adjust forage up.
adjust cooking up.
add clayworking.



In my opinion, I don't think having a player completely remove their old subclass skills in order to learn new skills is fun.  Perhaps if there was a way to 'remort' and learn a 2nd subclass and keep the old subclass skills..

That's why I think a real life timer's demand, with a character living for X amount of days, and also having some amount of average play time, learning skills that are reasonable for their situation would make a lot of sense. The idea to use a spec app as currency could be another way this is moderated though. Maybe the spec-app just adds on some relevant skills based on their play and situation.

Quote from: talos on August 28, 2024, 09:48:19 PMPerhaps if there was a way to 'remort' and learn a 2nd subclass and keep the old subclass skills..

This made me chuckle, in part because the only places I have remorted either all your skills were set back to starting, or you died and restarted.

Unlock new skills only with granted resurrections!

Quote from: talos on August 28, 2024, 09:48:19 PMIn my opinion, I don't think having a player completely remove their old subclass skills in order to learn new skills is fun.  Perhaps if there was a way to 'remort' and learn a 2nd subclass and keep the old subclass skills..

what about an additional Played-Time Subclass able to be picked after XXX time played in game. subclasses would add a few skills to low but useable levels with a focus on supporting full guilds. they would reflect a PC's in-game learning.

example 1: "worked at a smithy" gets some helpful smithy skills to levels that would be useful for making tools or helping out guild crafters.

example 2: "spent time in the byn" could give someone someone parry, guard, rescue, forage.

work for staff: initial creation subclasses, then cannibalizing subguild none code to add a new subguild picking option with different requirements (time played).

this would allow pcs to "grow" over time without picking random skills or taking up staff time.

this also extends the option for coded character growth to every pc which means every pc has more chance for motivational
 and experience-based change.

I really like the idea for character longevity and also giving someone a second lease on life in Armageddon. I feel like long-lived characters for me lose their flavor after 8-12 RL months and I may as well start a new PC. This might change player behavior by allowing more reason to stick around and that's really cool.

Quote from: talos on August 28, 2024, 09:48:19 PMThey use a special app to change their subclass to master brewer.

This also made me chuckle but for different reasons.

Back in late 2013 I submitted a special app request for outdoorsman extended sub-guild. There was effort from both me and staff to create, submit, approve and finally get the character set up at creation. The process to set up the character was quick but I had to wait an hour or two hours in king of halls to get it done.  The first thing I do after buying some stuff is walk out to forage in the salt flats which was just off the road at the time. As I walk there, there was a whiran dwarf waiting on the road, who ended up ganking me, without effort or reason. I took a break from the game after that for a few months which was not likely the return the game was expecting for the amount of effort put in to creating my character.

The game has changed since then, for the better in my opinion, and the same is less likely to happen for a number of reasons both code and policy wise. However,  the game offers a lot of benefits upfront at times with no or little cost associated to the players, almost as if it is still expecting characters to die within three to six months before starting again. When that doesn't happen, those older characters will end up not having very much room to grow, change or evolve.  Worse off, despite the game putting that effort in getting people to start a character, unexpected circumstances might still happen that prevent the the game from 'gaining' anything from the effort it put in, this is no one's fault but just reality of life.

By balancing out some of the benefits/staff effort through time played versus time passed or upfront with little cost, the game will have already 'gained' from the additional effort put in by staff in an existing character.  While getting people to start a new character again and again is important, incentivizing players to continue to log in and actively play the game is essential as well. After all if a player decides to store their older established character, someone on staff might end up having put more effort than what Talos described though a coded benefits/flavor special app so that player can start hunting chalton again.  That doesn't sound like a net gain for the game.