Quote from: Fredd on December 05, 2023, 09:04:23 PMSO MUCH THIS.

My current character is actually the first time I've played a character more than a month lol, now they'll get stored in around a month.

My biggest concern is that staff will misjudge the work involved with building and maintaining this new structure and then begin missing deadlines and never reach project completion. I have seen it more times than I care to count in various muds and other startup projects.

Question: What strategies will staff deploy to make sure the work gets done?

Quote from: Fredd on December 05, 2023, 08:28:02 PMBut there's marks made in this game by players who are no longer with us. And when I see them, I can remember my old friends. And I always wanted to leave one of those marks. Now I can't. Now i'll never get to be a page on 'longest lived' where people wax poetic about some dude of mine that lived a rl year and won arm, because It will never happen again.

It's not a full RL year, but you still have time. I think you've made a very substantial impact. Yes, it's annoying that neither of us are going to be on the Longest Lived Ever page, but I can't help wondering if the legacy OF the longest-lived characters was what contributed to the apparent stagnation. I don't think so, I've met precious few characters with over 6 RL months behind them IG, and none of them were particularly ossifying forces. Quite the contrary, they were often the most reliable characters for helping to build RP citywide.

That said, I dislike this plan. I've seen a lot of enthusiasm for areas outside Allanak in the past six months, with a concentration on legacy and culture that a lot of people genuinely liked and appreciated. Now, the game can be closed to those areas for two RL years before returning, but that's going to mean the people who liked playing in those areas will be dissatisfied. In fact, some of them might not choose to return to Armageddon at all. Even the impact of player actions in game will be drastically diminished by the fact we won't be able to play in those sections of the world again, except maybe hearing about rumors or seeing antagonists.

Yet this would be understandable, even worth the risk, if we hadn't previously seen what closing a sphere for a lengthy time would do to the health of the game in general. A lot of people are going to want to see metrics justifying locking them out of their preferred options, or they'll simply be as disengaged as they were during the closures of past years. In particular, if we insist that player legacies will carry over into future seasons, a lot of people would like to see how that would be justified. I try to uphold the memory of characters all the time IG, and have been part of plots resurrecting traditions that might otherwise have been completely lost. The effect this would have on those IG efforts is crushing, so people would want to know that they're not wasting their time before committing to the new structure.

Now, that doesn't mean you HAVE to do or say anything. But I'd definitely want to keep the more active segments of the playerbase before I looked to generate fresh enthusiasm from outside.

I'm pretty interested in checking out the game for its first season. Do y'all have a newsletter or something? Would be helpful to keep people abreast of the changes who might not check the GDB.

Thanks!

So, I am honestly quite often a voice against the grain, speaking positively rather than negatively.

So the salt is going to come out over this post... And I'm going to pre-emptively apologize for that and try to keep this respectful.

I JUST after 2 years of struggling got 1 Karma. I JUST STARTED playing a character that I felt I could enjoy long term. I JUST felt like I was getting the good bits started.

That's me though...

I try to think about everyone else, all the time.

How does this help or hinder other people?

How does this create a better environment for story telling?

It doesn't.

It creates different problems with different issues, and different skewed visions.

It creates more problems because this is a radical departure from how the game was previously played.

It creates more problems because it was a decision affecting the world we are invested in. Made without the consensus that it was a required one.

Make a fucking new mud.

Don't call this new game Armageddon.

Don't call this new game Armageddon 2.

It is a spin off.

It is a creation based on.

But it is not a logical progression of the game.

It's a deconstruction of it.

It's a destruction of it.

EDIT: I'm leaving this up, but my opinion on this issue keeps fucking swinging back and forth. And I don't know why.

So all existing plotlines have roughly 1 month to conclude?
Things that may have been in works for RL years will end, regardless.

Will staff be providing support in wrapping those plots up in a satisfying way, or be too busy with the new project?

Quote from: Kavrick on December 05, 2023, 09:06:35 PM

Quote from: Fredd on December 05, 2023, 09:04:23 PMSO MUCH THIS.

My current character is actually the first time I've played a character more than a month lol, now they'll get stored in around a month.

That's rough man. Arguably, you don't start playing arm until after the 1 month mark.

It takes about that to establish a solid connection with the character for me, and a real bond with other characters I feel. And that. That's why I play this game. That living vicariously through my fantasy character escape that comes from being able to play the character long enough to establish those connections with others.

Quote from: Fredd on December 05, 2023, 09:11:11 PMIt takes about that to establish a solid connection with the character for me, and a real bond with other characters I feel. And that. That's why I play this game. That living vicariously through my fantasy character escape that comes from being able to play the character long enough to establish those connections with others.

Yeah I 100% agree. About after a month I've noticed people start recognizing your character and actually understanding and expecting a certain personality from them. It's real nice.

Can you win a season? 




I'm kinda upset, grieving the loss of my current character and the world they can exist in.

I think this could be great for the game, but it may be horrible for the 'immersive, consistent Gameworld'

I hope it's done on a trial basis with the possibility of snapping back to something more static.


Also question, I see the pros and the cons but if everyone focuses on the cons, are staff willing to consider keeping it the way it is?

Quote from: Kavrick on December 05, 2023, 09:01:28 PM

Quote from: Cowboy on December 05, 2023, 08:27:30 PMNo reason to play between now and the closing, right?  All characters will be erased in a month or so.  Then a couple months (or more?) game closed?  Going to take strong support from current players, to hang around, for an unknown outcome in the spring.  I just hope the game survives these changes.

I'll be honest, it really does bum me out. I love my current character and had long-term plans for them. But this basically means I'm going to be force-stored and never see any of my character's friends again.

Same. This makes me want to store my current PC and play something else since I know they will be force stored in a month anyway. I had high hopes this would be one of my longest lived PCs too. I am bummed out, but I'm trying to keep my hopes up. It could still very much be fun! If the seasons last closer to the 18 month end of the bracket given, that gives people who do play long-lived PCs a chance to have them still.

I am super bummed out about the game being basically shut down for a few months, I understand the reason, 100%, but I get on Armageddon almost daily when the mood strikes me so.. I mean I guess I'll have more time for reading but I like Armageddon because it's like cowriting a story with others. Reading with participation! XD


Now, questions:

So is the new karma system being scrapped and replaced by this, or will the new karma system be added in when the game opens back up?

If I want to play a full class vivaduan/drovian, do I need to do it now before the game shuts down or will it still be an option in Armageddon Seasons?

Thryzn tend to be more isolated from most other player locations, will they still be available to play?

In the week or two in between seasons will information about the new upcoming season be put out so that players can think of ideas for character concepts or family role calls etc?

I've gotten a VERY concerning number of farewells. From players who wouldn't normally do this sort of thing.

Edit: Enough farewells that my social group that I play with just crumbled. This next month or so is going to be... Rough. At best.

Edit:  Also a bit touching, honestly. In a very sad way.

Quote from: slipshod on December 05, 2023, 09:10:25 PMSo all existing plotlines have roughly 1 month to conclude?
Things that may have been in works for RL years will end, regardless.

Will staff be providing support in wrapping those plots up in a satisfying way, or be too busy with the new project?

As I'm understanding this - the "wrap-up" will consist of "to be continued" in the next "season."  For example, if you're playing Joe the hunter who has just finally discovered the secret cave his momma told him about just before she died - then during Season One, that cave has now been spellunked, and named Joe's Momma's Cave, and a treasure has been found containing clues to the location of Steinal. This Season One's function is for players to find Steinal. All thanks to YOUR character, who discovered the cave, back in -this- incarnation of the game.

Sounds promising, and it may just be the only thing that can revitalize this undeniably dying game. I'm just leery of the whole "taking the game offline for a few months" part. Seems like it would be better to leave it running until Season One is ready, even if it means there won't be much staff overseeing the current version. I don't really see an upside to shutting the game down for months. It's likely that a number of players would drift away entirely in the course of such a long downtime.

Are there any significant code changes on the table? I think there's a dire need for overhauls of the way combat skills are raised and stats are rolled, so if that's within the realm of possibility, I'd like to write up some proposed changes in a different thread.

Quote from: Lizzie on December 05, 2023, 09:26:44 PM

Quote from: slipshod on December 05, 2023, 09:10:25 PMSo all existing plotlines have roughly 1 month to conclude?
Things that may have been in works for RL years will end, regardless.

Will staff be providing support in wrapping those plots up in a satisfying way, or be too busy with the new project?

As I'm understanding this - the "wrap-up" will consist of "to be continued" in the next "season."  For example, if you're playing Joe the hunter who has just finally discovered the secret cave his momma told him about just before she died - then during Season One, that cave has now been spellunked, and named Joe's Momma's Cave, and a treasure has been found containing clues to the location of Steinal. This Season One's function is for players to find Steinal. All thanks to YOUR character, who discovered the cave, back in -this- incarnation of the game.

How did you come to understand this?  i hope a staff person will still address my question.

So...not April Fool's Day...

It's early December...what's the catch?

Hey look, 16 players...

So seriously...usually I go with what is happening...but really?

Have to say this is extremely disappointing.  All that history, 30 years of it for me...

This does feel like Arm 2.0.

Ugh...

So I don't have a huge stake in this, I'm one of the players that no longer plays.  I have been expecting this game to close for a while now, but I didn't expect this.  I commend the current staff for trying to come up with a way to revive their game.

That said, while this does intrigue me and I can see myself playing, there is a big elephant in the room with this concept that I think may need more workshopping.  The problem is inherent in what we are seeing now.  The advantage of people being able to make real change in the game is nice, but that will generally reward long term play.  People are currently talking about leaving the game early, since nothing really matters.  That may or may not be true and I have no interest in debating it, but the sense is certainly there.  This means the next couple months will probably see a true soft death of the game, before season 1 launches and the game will probably see a revival at least for a short term. 

There are however a couple of big problems with this.  First, the revival will likely see a lot of players who all come in fresh at the same time, which can be jarring and something arm frankly has never had to deal with, not a biiig big deal, but still weird.

The second problem though is that the season by it's nature is going to recreate this soft death scenario, worse yet, people will know sooner and probably start reacting to that sooner too.  I expect because of the nature of this concept what Arm can expect is a big jump in players on season start followed by a slow exodus as the game progresses.  People dying normally will hasten this as the game will look less and less like you can "make a difference".  In other words, this winding down is going to be a constant problem and I suspect it might actually kill the game.

I'm not saying a big change like this isn't called for, or that this is a bad idea, just that I think you should really workshop this idea of closed seasons to see if you can't find a way to have your cake and eat it too in terms of players feeling like they need to quit and give up the game until a new season drops.


One suggestion I can make which, lets be honest, this suggestion is stupid.  As I non-player I also don't really care what happens, but I'll make it anyway.  So before you read it, disclaimer, this idea is really really stupid.

What if, instead of closing the game when a season ends, you leave it opened but simple stop letting people apply into it.    People will be able to play out their games to their hearts content and will naturally retire as the game empties.  This will also stagger people entering the new game so that everyone doesn't just start new.. well they sort of will, but it would be different.  I realize this might be a little harder to manage and maybe with the way the world is built impossible!  But I think the season end timer, just like the current game end timer is a death sentence to this new idea.  Oh incase this wasn't clear in my dumb idea, I mean don't close out the season, just close out apping it, people can app into the new season, so I'm effectively saying allow two seasons to exist at once in a way.

Quote from: slipshod on December 05, 2023, 09:29:42 PMHow did you come to understand this?  i hope a staff person will still address my question.

By reading Halaster's post, and reading his responses in the ongoing Discord discussion. I might not be understanding it correctly, but that's why I put "as I understand it" in my answer.

Quote from: Supified on December 05, 2023, 10:05:55 PMThe second problem though is that the season by it's nature is going to recreate this soft death scenario, worse yet, people will know sooner and probably start reacting to that sooner too.  I expect because of the nature of this concept what Arm can expect is a big jump in players on season start followed by a slow exodus as the game progresses.  People dying normally will hasten this as the game will look less and less like you can "make a difference".  In other words, this winding down is going to be a constant problem and I suspect it might actually kill the game.

There is a difference between a plot being wrapped up neatly, with a fufiling end... And whatever this is.

Y'all act like nobody's played D&D ever. This idea is AWESOME. The only way it would work is definitely to accelerate the skill-up process, granted, but I'm all about this. I see the grief in this thread, and I too don't want to lose my current PC. But like Halaster said, we've been steadily losing players for years and years. It will drive some of our players away, and it will intrigue other players back.

I haven't seen the game with over 35 players peak in a couple years now. When Tuluk reopened, it spread our already-thin playerbase out even more. The only alternative I can see to the "season approach" would be to close one of the city-states down again. Heck, let's try Allanak this time! It worked once before, right?

But seriously, as someone who joined Armageddon in 2006, I think this idea has a lot of merit. I'm a passionate and regular D&D player (my DM and fellow players are ex-Armers). We've played 18-month campaigns that were UNFORGETTABLE in their scope and merit. If my DM offered a campaign in an Armageddon setting, I'd be ecstatic. I don't think a rewarding game season is impossible for ~35 people and ~5-8 staffers. In fact, I'm excited to see where this goes. With this ratio of staff to players, I have confidence that each one of our experiences during that time would be satisfying, especially with the high level of creativity we all need to display as members of an RP-enforced game.

Is it the same game world and game lore? Yes.  Is it still free to play? Yes. Is it still perma-death? Maybe?

Fucking count me IN.

Not ignoring you guys, I've just been busy in a lightning-round in Discord.  Usiku and I will start answering these in the morning!

Quote from: Ourla on December 05, 2023, 10:33:11 PMY'all act like nobody's played D&D ever.

Please do not take this aggressively.

I'm not here to play DnD. I'm here to log into a living, breathing world where I have a character I'm engrossed in, with friends they have connections to. I'm here to live vicariously through my characters.

When I play DnD, i don't care if my guy lives or dies, I'm rerolling with the same 4 players, and those people are my draw. Armageddon distinctly tries to prevent this OOC connection, focusing it all IC.

2 different styles.

Quote from: Ourla on December 05, 2023, 10:33:11 PMY'all act like nobody's played D&D ever. This idea is AWESOME. The only way it would work is definitely to accelerate the skill-up process, granted, but I'm all about this. I see the grief in this thread, and I too don't want to lose my current PC. But like Halaster said, we've been steadily losing players for years and years. It will drive some of our players away, and it will intrigue other players back.

I hate to say it but announcing out of the blue, 'Hey guys, in a month we're storing EVERYONE'S characters, ta-tah!' is probably going to drive more people away than bring people back. And I'm not really a doomsayer.

Quote from: Kavrick on December 05, 2023, 10:49:31 PM

Quote from: Ourla on December 05, 2023, 10:33:11 PMY'all act like nobody's played D&D ever. This idea is AWESOME. The only way it would work is definitely to accelerate the skill-up process, granted, but I'm all about this. I see the grief in this thread, and I too don't want to lose my current PC. But like Halaster said, we've been steadily losing players for years and years. It will drive some of our players away, and it will intrigue other players back.

I hate to say it but announcing out of the blue, 'Hey guys, in a month we're storing EVERYONE'S characters, ta-tah!' is probably going to drive more people away than bring people back. And I'm not really a doomsayer.

It's definitely made me lose all trust in staff.

Current talk on discord really implies that there is no hard direction the staff are following and no major project management for what comes next. No plans for any major changes to the only play center the game will have. Just hopes and dreams and blind optimism for what comes next, but you can't run a mud off of that. The game would be better off just coasting on what it has than burning everything to the ground and hoping to make what you can better.

I have pretty much lost all interest in playing out the rest of my 1 year old character, and when the game stores my character, I'm just quitting the game.

So what is the first phase going to be?  I mean overarching shit going on?

Are docs gonna be changed because we are in a different time and different powers that be etc?

If you do speed up gains for the faster pace of play, I'd recommend more of a bump each skill gain and less shortening of times.  So you don't get dudes just killing scrab all day long forever hoping to abuse their timers.

Will we see Kanks return if we time warp to before kankageddon?

Does this open up plots and chances to add time magick to the game?

Quote from: Shaydee on December 05, 2023, 09:16:49 PMNow, questions:

So is the new karma system being scrapped and replaced by this, or will the new karma system be added in when the game opens back up?

If I want to play a full class vivaduan/drovian, do I need to do it now before the game shuts down or will it still be an option in Armageddon Seasons?

Thryzn tend to be more isolated from most other player locations, will they still be available to play?

In the week or two in between seasons will information about the new upcoming season be put out so that players can think of ideas for character concepts or family role calls etc?

I will do my best to answer some questions as well:

So is the new karma system being scrapped and replaced by this, or will the new karma system be added in when the game opens back up?

The new karma system is part of the exciting changes coming with Seasons. Our intention is for it to be fully implemented and operational when Season 1 kicks off, offering a fresh experience for all players.

If I want to play a full class vivaduan/drovian, do I need to do it now before the game shuts down or will it still be an option in Armageddon Seasons?

No need to rush! The opportunity to play a full class vivaduan/drovian will still be available in future Seasons. While we are currently in discussions about classes and races for Season 1, there are no plans for drastic changes to class cut-offs or race options. Future Seasons might bring exciting variations, so keep an eye out for what Season 2 or 3 might unveil—perhaps mundane only or magick only scenarios!

Thryzn tend to be more isolated from most other player locations, will they still be available to play?

Absolutely! While Thryzn's potential availability is still under discussion due to their isolated nature, nothing is off the table. The specifics about where they will fit in for future Seasons will become clearer once dates are set, and playbooks are established. Keep an eye out for more definitive answers on the races, classes, and clans available in upcoming weeks.

In the week or two in between seasons will information about the new upcoming season be put out so that players can think of ideas for character concepts or family role calls etc?

There will be ample time between Seasons, typically a week or two, during which information about the upcoming Season will be released. This period is designed to allow players to brainstorm character concepts, think about family role calls, and prepare for the new Season. The goal is to work collaboratively with players to create deeper and more meaningful roles, ensuring everyone can dive into Season 1 with a well-thought-out character and storyline.