Jab:

Arm used to be about skilling up and doing crafts and stuff in between big RPTs and world events. You wanted to stay alive so you could see what happened after the RPT, so you did your Byn grinds and your twinky maneuvers. With so few staff-run RPTs, and every one of them seeming to require 20 unknown diversions and secret quests, its become up to players to do things that don't require staff to give their time. Players can only accomplish so much.

Riposte:

Storytellers are not storytellers, they are customer service reps that require minimum 6 months before staff even -deign- to let them do more than be a roadblock in the request tool. Hire Storytellers who want to tell a story. Help them build and run the story. Don't make it so only HL+ can do anything.

Quote from: Riev on November 27, 2023, 07:48:32 PMJab:

Arm used to be about skilling up and doing crafts and stuff in between big RPTs and world events. You wanted to stay alive so you could see what happened after the RPT, so you did your Byn grinds and your twinky maneuvers. With so few staff-run RPTs, and every one of them seeming to require 20 unknown diversions and secret quests, its become up to players to do things that don't require staff to give their time. Players can only accomplish so much.

Riposte:

Storytellers are not storytellers, they are customer service reps that require minimum 6 months before staff even -deign- to let them do more than be a roadblock in the request tool. Hire Storytellers who want to tell a story. Help them build and run the story. Don't make it so only HL+ can do anything.

Storytellers can "be" storytellers. One of the very first things you learn while a brand-new storyteller is how to animate Vennant at the Gaj.  It's like - your very first animation exercise and it's thrown at you usually within your first week as a storyteller.  You're encouraged to do random animations, even if you don't yet have a clan assigned to you yet.  Animate a street urchin for some Bynners hanging out in the commoner quarter of Allanak. Animate a gurth in the scrublands outside Tuluk.  Create your own generic unaffiliated NPC, get it approved, and animate it.  You can do all this without being assigned to any clan, in your very first month of being a staffer.

Telling a story doesn't have to be a Plot Line[tm].  One of my most memorable moments in Arm was over 10 years ago when my Kurac PC was out riding on the North Road, and someone animated a tregil that shit on my PC's boot.

That sounds like an awful story, and I'm glad you're an easy to please octogenarian. Some of us would like to see a little more.

Earthquake just uncovered an old secret Tuluki outpost.
The recent rains washed out an area in the northern Chasm revealing relics from when the Thirteen Tribes first marched.
A tregil pooped on my shoe.

Oh, the joys of Armageddon.

Quote from: Riev on November 27, 2023, 09:17:39 PMThat sounds like an awful story, and I'm glad you're an easy to please octogenarian. Some of us would like to see a little more.

Earthquake just uncovered an old secret Tuluki outpost.
The recent rains washed out an area in the northern Chasm revealing relics from when the Thirteen Tribes first marched.
A tregil pooped on my shoe.

Oh, the joys of Armageddon.

1. I'm only 62.
2. The tregil-pooping event was just a small moment in the midst of the "end of the world" plotlines. But sometimes it's the mundane, unimportant moments that make the greatest impact.

I dunno Lizzie....Based on the definition:

Storyteller:
A storyteller is someone who tells or writes stories.

And

Story:
A story is a description of imaginary people and events, which is written or told in order to entertain.

I'd want to hear what the producers (staff) expectations of storytellers are in comparison to the definition. Not us players opinions.

People like different things. This game offers a lot of different things. I see some hot takes that act like this isn't the case. 

I see a lot of different problems getting thrown around too. It's a lot to keep up with. It's stealth it's apartments it's not enough hrpts it's too many bars it's too many role calls for hrpts it's bad leaders it's too many leaders it's not enough leaders it's elves it's magickers it's bad rp it's cities it's too many cities... I dunno. Much I agree with but at the same time I just putter around on my sunback happily. There's a ton left to still explore for me.

I think staff usually are enjoying the game, but also see some gaps they could fill. And that's all we do is try to incrementally improve things. So maybe there's a natural disconnect between staff and the really unhappy players who used to love it.  That's another nuance to navigate.

I'm on the side of incremental change informed by data and by listening to players, and I think our current staff are doing that.

In the mean time I suggest players do what I do: try to have fun, don't be afraid to toss out ideas and rpts, take care of newbies, and take breaks when not having fun.


PS
story tellers can run world plots if they want and get approval, but they also have duty to the players in their clans first. And there's much to learn. The new staff wiki helps.

Quote from: Lizzie on November 27, 2023, 07:58:35 PM

Quote from: Riev on November 27, 2023, 07:48:32 PMJab:

Arm used to be about skilling up and doing crafts and stuff in between big RPTs and world events. You wanted to stay alive so you could see what happened after the RPT, so you did your Byn grinds and your twinky maneuvers. With so few staff-run RPTs, and every one of them seeming to require 20 unknown diversions and secret quests, its become up to players to do things that don't require staff to give their time. Players can only accomplish so much.

Riposte:

Storytellers are not storytellers, they are customer service reps that require minimum 6 months before staff even -deign- to let them do more than be a roadblock in the request tool. Hire Storytellers who want to tell a story. Help them build and run the story. Don't make it so only HL+ can do anything.

Storytellers can "be" storytellers. One of the very first things you learn while a brand-new storyteller is how to animate Vennant at the Gaj.  It's like - your very first animation exercise and it's thrown at you usually within your first week as a storyteller.  You're encouraged to do random animations, even if you don't yet have a clan assigned to you yet.  Animate a street urchin for some Bynners hanging out in the commoner quarter of Allanak. Animate a gurth in the scrublands outside Tuluk.  Create your own generic unaffiliated NPC, get it approved, and animate it.  You can do all this without being assigned to any clan, in your very first month of being a staffer.

Telling a story doesn't have to be a Plot Line[tm].  One of my most memorable moments in Arm was over 10 years ago when my Kurac PC was out riding on the North Road, and someone animated a tregil that shit on my PC's boot.

That sounds like a great story Lizzie, and you seem to be the kind of player who appreciates the small things and makes the ooc community better through their positivity and not dragging it into something toxic by putting others down

Earthquake just uncovered an old secret Tuluki outpost.
The recent rains washed out an area in the northern Chasm revealing relics from when the Thirteen Tribes first marched.
A tregil pooped on my shoe.

All have meaning and a place in the game, and even the small moments and things matter

Quote from: Kaathe on November 27, 2023, 11:40:02 PMI'm on the side of incremental change informed by data and by listening to players

Okay, so this sounds very nice and appealing put like this, but if you put it through the right translator, it also reads like this:

Quote from: Marketing reception based Kaathe translationI'm on the side of slow, cautious change I hope everyone will approve of.

This is also appealing to read, to the right audience.


Instead, it's comfortable, foot-dragging, carefully measured change that won't be very exciting. And if new players and increased playercounts are ever the goal, you need some less comfortable, more flashy, more daring and more interesting style of changes than ArmageddonMUD over its (many) years is used to. You've gotta step away from the walker and onto the fucking motorcycle, BRUH!!

I'm going to be honest here in saying, a lot of the noisy, crusty old veteran voices on ArmageddonMUD's GDB in particular, no matter how much they complain about stuff, are not going anywhere. Kaathe, me, you, and Usiku could show up to some of these guys' door, steal their Amazon packages on camera, spraypaint "FUK ELVES" on their front door and steal their dog on the way out and they'd log in just the same the next day (next week at most) because they've been playing it for 30 years and it's what they turn to when they have too much time to kill.

They're going to be unhappy about me pointing it out, but you don't actually have to do much to appeal to those people. Even if they squall about stuff here, they're not going anywhere. This game needs a splash in the broader world, not within.

Again, I point out other places with bigger playerbases and bigger changes going down that not everyone there will like. Changes are good for these games. They bring fresh experiences and fresh perspectives, fresh settings for stories or even fresh means of getting there (combat changes, new spells, guild restructuring) that bring fresh players in or make people who are curious about new horizons looking at ArmageddonMUD when they wouldn't otherwise.

You don't get those people if they look this way and just see "same old ArmageddonMUD" making zero meaningful changes to their gameworld year after year, decade after decade.

Consider embracing the idea that slow, measured, totally popular change that no one will complain about is part of the problem on Armageddon. Being bold is more of what's needed for an old place like this, not more of the same.

Thread seems to have derailed from 'we should close or consolidate some stuff' to other options for engagement.

Can I bring up the idea again of some form of offline messaging. My preference would be messages of the unseen way filtering their way through your dreams, or being thoughts you wake up with. I like to twist everything to be as IC as possible, although even OOC arrangement of playtimes would be great.

Addressing above ideas too...yes, please use the player announcements for vague posting about locations/playtimes!

Use the ingame rumor boards more too!

I sorta agree with the sentiment of Windstorm.

I think staff has made great strides in being transparent since the Shal-Gate and other mishaps.  However, I think one of two things is happening.

1. They just don't give a shit what people say who play the game.  They are still just of the opinion, I made it to staff, I make the calls and we are all good as I see it.  Which honestly, is 100% true, this isn't a democracy and the Producers and down make the calls.

2. They are so worried about losing players that they've taken the opposite tact of, "Holy shit I'm scared to change ANYTHING because we might lose more!"

From my time in the PC and various comments I've seen from Halaster and Usiku (These are my interpretations, not putting words in their mouths but just how I took it.) They understand the world is entirely too big, they get it, but they also know we have some players who as Windstorm said will just play no matter what and we have some players who will be like, OMG I can't play a tribal human who lives in a coded camp? I'm never gonna log in again!

Now on this of course, I'm on the camp of do it rather than don't.  I personally love Allanak as a playspot, not to thrilled with Tuluk, BUT, I wouldn't even be averse to closing Allanak if we went "take a chainsaw to it" type of solution.

I think there is a lot of acceptance and understanding that the game has struggles by staff and players, but ultimately it's the onus of the staff to do something about it.  Popular or not.

Quote from: Dracul on November 28, 2023, 11:02:24 AMThread seems to have derailed from 'we should close or consolidate some stuff' to other options for engagement.

Can I bring up the idea again of some form of offline messaging. My preference would be messages of the unseen way filtering their way through your dreams, or being thoughts you wake up with. I like to twist everything to be as IC as possible, although even OOC arrangement of playtimes would be great.

Addressing above ideas too...yes, please use the player announcements for vague posting about locations/playtimes!

Use the ingame rumor boards more too!

I honestly believe in the days of withering numbers of players that we are in now, we need to be more accepting of coordinating outside the game somehow.  If that's worked into what you're suggesting here, fucking great.

People have been asking for WAY VOICEMAIL for forever.

They could probably even introduce a mudmail into the account system they already have, login pariah password, You've got mail!

I think it's that purist portion of the regime that's like, "If it doesn't happen in the game, it shouldn't happen!" that don't understand that I can log in on a friday night at 9pm EST and only find two people active even in my sphere of play, without having to ride to Tuluk or Red Storm or Luirs.

Quote from: Windstorm on November 26, 2023, 01:36:12 PMIt's fairly clear at least to me that an unwillingness and fear of meaningful change in the world to accomodate a lower playerbase and facilitate more (and better) interaction is a roadblock that Arm's failed to address and backed down from at every turn, probably since before I even got here.

Honestly it's something I've said since I started playing Arm. The staff/playerbase for some reason are in extreme deniable at the viability of the game world. I've heard stories about how the playercount used to be around 100-200 and you honestly have to be delusional, and I mean that without it being intended as an insult- to believe that a world that was designed for 100+ players would also work when the average player count sits around 20.

20 players isn't even a bad amount, it's only a bad amount when you spread that 20 player count across:
2 city states
A military faction for each city state
A byn faction for each city state
The guild
ATV
Two Moons
Dune Stalkers
Secret Tribe™
Vru'Rihali
Thryzn
Misc rinthi criminals
The Mul Outpost
Cenyr
Best Luir's Outpost
Red Storm Village
Nobles
Templars
Gemmed
Antag™ Role-calls

I've unironically invited around 10 of my friends to try out Armageddon, and the majority of them drop the game because they'll play for multiple days without seeing other players at times. I'm sorry but the idea that the current world works fine for the player count is completely delusional. I also don't care about 'unique log ins', as the only thing that matters for a player count is how many people you actually regularly have playing at the same time.

QuoteConsider embracing the idea that slow, measured, totally popular change that no one will complain about is part of the problem on Armageddon. Being bold is more of what's needed for an old place like this, not more of the same.

Isn't that how we got a new iso race, mul outpost being given to an unassailable group of PCs, and elfageddon? I'm rather wary now. 

I like the idea of launching a wizbang sister game that's compact while reusing the bulk of our history and assets. But when I actually start trying to plan it out, it becomes clear that it would just as likely fail and destroy us as bring in new blood.

Quote from: Kaathe on November 28, 2023, 11:23:13 AMIsn't that how we got a new iso race, mul outpost being given to an unassailable group of PCs, and elfageddon? I'm rather wary now. 

That's not change, it's kind of the opposite: expansion. More content instead of changing existing content, let alone consolidating it.

(I don't know what elfageddon was)

@Kavrick by your definition of 'player count', the world was designed for 60-70 at the top end, not in any way over 100. Because you are insisting of using the metric of how many people are logged in at once, not how many accounts log in during a week. Even during its highest heyday, you'd see about 250-260 a week unique logins, and typically 60ish people logged in at peak. So you really need to adjust your math there. And that was probably around 2013? I will grant for long term hyped HRPTs, you might crack 100 people on. But that was about as rare as rpts/hrpts are now.

And 2013 was inflated numbers. Typically around the time it would be 50ish to 60ish+, and closer to 200 logins, around 2012 and 2014. If you look at the stats for logins and players 2013 stands out as notably higher than the rest of the high tide.

I've been playing since around 2005 and I don't think I ever saw hundreds, maybe during one or two HRPTs, normally in the "Golden Days" it was like 60-70 at peak.

Unique player logins is deceptive.  If I go pay 500 people to log in and give them a dollar, they all create characters, login for a few minutes and bounce, the unique player count is now +500, but nothing was actually gained.

While I get there are people who play a few minutes a day or sporadically here and there because life, after all RL is more important than bone swords and fireballs, but when it comes to roleplaying, fleshing out characters, keeping plots moving, doing interesting shit whether that's bullshitting with me at a bar during a night or simply going out to dig rocks and emote with me.  Those are the interactions that matter and are visible to players as a whole.

If 143 Unique Log Ins, log in and don't actually put forth the story or interact with folks outside their clan crafting hall, or their solo RP, or whatever, that's a deceptive number to hitch your wagon to.

It's about quality not quantity.

Even if we're not talking hundreds I'd like to think my point still stands if we're sitting at around 30-40% of the prior player count.

Quote from: Kavrick on November 28, 2023, 11:49:53 AMEven if we're not talking hundreds I'd like to think my point still stands if we're sitting at around 30-40% of the prior player count.

Oh yeah, I get what you mean, your point is still valid.  The pool is too diluted.  You don't gotta convince me of that.

Quote from: Kavrick on November 28, 2023, 11:49:53 AMEven if we're not talking hundreds I'd like to think my point still stands if we're sitting at around 30-40% of the prior player count.

More like 50-60%. Not that it's not trending. It's trending, and has been trending, in the same direction since 2014. I wonder if an assessment of game changes between 2014 and now and their impacts on play, versus changes between 2008-2014 and /their/ impacts on play could be done to analyze the differences and how some things very notably got us players and others have slowly peeled them off like the layers of an onion.

Quote from: Kaathe on November 28, 2023, 11:23:13 AM

QuoteConsider embracing the idea that slow, measured, totally popular change that no one will complain about is part of the problem on Armageddon. Being bold is more of what's needed for an old place like this, not more of the same.

Isn't that how we got a new iso race, mul outpost being given to an unassailable group of PCs, and elfageddon? I'm rather wary now. 

I like the idea of launching a wizbang sister game that's compact while reusing the bulk of our history and assets. But when I actually start trying to plan it out, it becomes clear that it would just as likely fail and destroy us as bring in new blood.

This still hasn't been publicly discussed. It's chapter is over though, and through staff decisions with (redated), (redacted), and (redacted) have shut it down and are shaping the story there (as storytellers, after all). It was also predictable, and show right off the bat when multiple pcs declared their interest in it, but their complete inability to compete with an established, codedly powerful pc who also was interested. The complaints were valid, but were meta. I honestly hoped that was taking something that was being done for a player that was playing with staff, and offering it to the rest of the playerbase. It drew (CONSOLIDATED) a ton of pcs to the area...too many! It failed because it was too interesting and engaging. It was almost destroyed by the pcs too when presented with a virtual threat. My belief is that we should see these groups pop up again and again and again only to be crushed by the big bad threats.

I'll say that the iso race isn't completely isolated and that they do go into [redacted] areas and engage with other groups. They've also not had a lot of players for a period, but if more join you'll be more likely to see them as well.

I don't know about elfageddon, but I just wish they would use shout with archery or that there was a better way to have a descriptive and engaging scene with the way stealth works. (not bashing anyone as that is a hard scene to play beyond code)

A lot of the flaws with the above could be eased with more communication between staff and players as while everyone wants to 'win'. If everyone joined the same allied clans and all the pcs got on the same side it would be Group PVE...and it's IC to want to survive.

On a related note, but something more established/accepted...this summer I saw FOUR half giants in the same clan! ...but how do you say ICly "No, I don't want another supermutant soldier as a guard" ...you start to say goofy things like 'this npc here, he just can't remember that many names or faces!"

(please excuse the repost/edit, messed up the quote syntax)

Disregard, he caught it.

The players that want to play together can. The issue is a culture problem. It's how you all interact with and play the game. You want interaction but only when it's convenient, and manageable. And you know exactly how to manufacture that convenient, manageable experience because most of you have played for so long.

Nothing is stopping yall from making a bunch of Byn characters and generating enough excitement to draw staff attention and have some real fun. Not all conflict needs to be global or huge or world changing. It doesn't all need to be some deeply intricate noble plot two pit two merchant houses against eachother.

I think a lot of us look back and maybe add more depth and narrative to the game we played than was truly there. And then we strive for that depth in ways that limit us from interacting and having fun with others. There's lots of depth to be found in a Mul Sorcerer Psychic. But you probably wont be able to play with many people while exploring that.

Edit: But I haven't played in a while so, that's probably more a reflection on the past playerbase.

Speaking of playing together: it's not against the rules to talk about what you want to play in the future. Players could run periodic polls and discussions to try and declare an area of focused play for their next PCs.  No forced staff closures necessary.

As a community you could decide on different seasons.  Southern spring. Summer in the north.  No noble November.

Au revoir

While all discussion is valid, it's also valid to point out that the current playerbase seems to -prefer- having privacy, space, and chosen solitude a great deal.  That is not directly posited, but rather something to see in observed trends of what's said between the lines in various topics.

Forced interaction that can be anything other than great and fantastic draws knee-jerk negative reactions, and to give constant interaction via consolidation generally pushes things in that direction.

More clans did pretty well with less players than you have.  WHICH clans is kind of a big deal, which is where all of this discussion becomes more valid.