Great Merchant Houses not competing is bad for merchant house play, bad for ArmageddonMUD and simply is unrealistic.

-Non-competition reduces conflict, intrigue, and MCB.
Imagine a world where the Great Merchant Houses are economically battling for control of Luir's. Raiders, thugs or mercenaries being hired to ambush each others' shipments or even rob each others' shops or establishments. Templars being bribed to look the other way. Double-agents getting paid to infiltrate and inform on one another. All while being visibly friendly to one another on the surface. Imagine Great Merchant Houses competing - getting into a bidding war, exortion, violence - for the services of a skilled crafter.

-Non-competition relegates GMH players to wandering vending machines with little political relevance or aims for their own houses.
Instead, they're here to socialize, sell things, and buy stuff from hunters. That's mostly all they do.

-Non-competition reduces the value and impact on money and economy. They will always have more money than they have anything to do with when it could be made competitive instead.
Imagine Merchant Houses all hearing about the same (rare thing) out in (dangerous location) and scrambling to hire conflicting explorers, surveyors, or adventurers to get (rare thing) from (dangerous location). Or hiring somebody to raid the other house's team for (rare thing) on their way back from (dangerous location). Instead, they all handshake and split it because there's no reason not to!

-Non-competition means GMHs have a fairly boring monopoly on almost every field of crafting in the world.
Imagine Kurac making you a cooler (item) than Salarr did. Imagine Salarr paying a thief or a burglar to steal, break, or deface it in retaliation. Instead, the current path is "Well we, Salarr, will not make this, so it cannot be made!" This could be far more interesting... but it's not.

-Tired of Luir's never getting anything done? Same pile of rubble been there for 20 years?
If enough PCs kick Kurac's ass out, ambush their shipments, rob their stores and tear down their holdings, maybe Salarr will get it done instead! Make competition a thing, and this becomes possible.

I really don't understand why the GMHs don't compete. It's even worse when pissing off a single GMH ends up making them all hate you, which reduces the incentive to do anything interesting or abrasive, kinda just adds to the 'everyone just gets along' vibe that's been going on.

something something [redacted]

I think they should compete more, and there should be more theft of 'clan crafting' through knowledge and similar tools/common materials/special materials.

Cue in six months time after this happens Kadius is in charge because it is based in Morins, has no real competition in the monopoly because nobody can displace them from their money market selling silk and no other members of any GMH can get a start because Kadius has bought up literally everything. I think each family should have a slice of the overall pie for this reason. (example scenario)

Also, it has already been proven that a multi  GM House Luirs does not work. Without going into too much detail, I think Kurac holds onto Luirs for a few non-trade reasons.

I can't really get into this because it's mostly IC, but I don't think any of what you want is likely. The PC reps of the different GMHs have their own ideas, and the staff have been pretty clear about the role of Luir's in the world.

I suspect the PCs will mostly do their own thing. Rather successfully, from what I can see in current play.

Quote from: Trevalyan on September 23, 2023, 11:39:16 PMI can't really get into this because it's mostly IC, but I don't think any of what you want is likely. The PC reps of the different GMHs have their own ideas, and the staff have been pretty clear about the role of Luir's in the world.

I suspect the PCs will mostly do their own thing. Rather successfully, from what I can see in current play.

I agree with all this! It's unlikely to change and the players are great!

I still disagree with them not competing. Maybe not on the scale I suggest above, which was mostly just "making a case," but all the same: I think it could be more interesting and even Armageddony than it is.

Quote from: Windstorm on September 23, 2023, 11:46:46 PMI agree with all this! It's unlikely to change and the players are great!

I still disagree with them not competing. Maybe not on the scale I suggest above, which was mostly just "making a case," but all the same: I think it could be more interesting and even Armageddony than it is.

I wasn't entirely clear. Getting -intense- over a crafter, that has happened. Ideally, the houses want to "compete" in a friendly way to expand their own influence, but also expand as a larger grouping. Some methods are louder than others. But the ones prevalent right now are what you might call...

... subtle. It makes a particular style of competition less relevant, of course, but that's the problem when one style becomes ascendant. You can't use every arrow in the quiver at once.

You used the word.

This is a tough one because while I agree in part with the notion that competition would lead to more interesting RP, from the IC world point of view it makes a lot of sense that they often cooperate.  That is -how- they got to be such a huge influence on the world.  They stick together through common interests to protect themselves from the power of Allanak and Tuluk.   A "United we stand, divided we fall kind" of thing.  And why each of the great 4 houses have their own area of influence (Nenyuk is considered a GMH too!).

That certainly doesn't always translate into the most compelling RP, though, I agree.

There is sometimes competition between them, but it's usually small and not terribly exciting.  I think that's what the multi-house Luir's was trying to accomplish - to push them into some competition at least with the outpost.  And they still do have that dynamic OOC'ly.

I'm not in this thread to offer anything beyond my personal thoughts and insight.

An example of the competition you might want to see is possible, and happens. Perhaps this the thread where you illuminate the other types of arrows that players of GMH related chars can use in their healthy competition with each other.

Here's one I can offer. Any grey area inside of products can be debated, and the city-states can be petitioned to make it official and legal. For instance, ornamental swords? Are they purely decorative, or does their form define their function. After enough bribes, Allanak could have an official position after a Senate meeting. Is this the kind of competition you were talking about?

In my ideal world, competition would be very direct.

contact Salarr
"Salarr, make this sword for me."
"Nah I don't want to make that sword for you or it will take 3 months. I got this spice if you need it though smoke up 420 nine hours a day I get you HIGH brothamang."
"Yeah send that guy over with it."

cease
contact Kurac-di

"Kurac-di, make this sword for me."
"Yeah sure I got a swordsmith right here who can make bitchin' swords."
"Oh and make me a silk hat."
"You sure? You live in the Labyrinth so there's an upcharge and we might gotta do it on the low but I care about coin and making it. You don't think I give a shit about stepping on other merchants' toes do you? Fucking lol, you got the coin mate?"
"I got the coin, Kurac-di. If you can make the hat and sword I can pay you for it."
"I am a merchant, so coin is King and we need a lot of it because we have templars to bribe and mercenaries to hire, which since I'm in conflict with the other merchants, I need a lot of it. Silk hat and sword coming right up."
"High five. In Her Shadow."

The only reason we can't have this is because literally everyone will outcompete nenyuk in the real estate market. If I was a kuraci gmh I would literally just build a shack in luir's and put lockable lockers in there that people can rent ala apartments.

Quote from: Windstorm on September 24, 2023, 12:46:13 PMIn my ideal world, competition would be very direct.
(et all)

In my opinion - I don't know how that would be sustainable. I think that would very quickly devolve into outright hostility and war. I love conflict but the GMH have a long-established history of avoiding head-on conflict with one another and for good reason: profits.

Quote from: Lotion on September 24, 2023, 01:23:12 PMThe only reason we can't have this is because literally everyone will outcompete nenyuk in the real estate market. If I was a kuraci gmh I would literally just build a shack in luir's and put lockable lockers in there that people can rent ala apartments.

I also don't think your Kuraci GMH would live very long if your junior nobody agent tried to start a war with the GMH that controls money. You'd be on a pile of bodies, bleached bones in the desert, or hanging out slack-jawed in an alley depending on where you were caught.

There's a living world to consider. If you step back and stop taking the world, theme, and in-game history into account then everything looks ridiculous.

In the world we have available to us, though, I agree with the notion and think that GMH have a lot of room for competition:

Short outbursts:
-bar fights, competitions, competing for contracts that touch on two GMH areas, violence between two hunters out on the desert sands, etc.
-Maybe Salarri crew know not to walk down dark alleys in Morin's, and Kadians are well aware that at night in Luir's it's smarter to stay in the well-lit taverns.
-Unaffiliated PCs or PCs that simply lean one way or another may join in - much like in real life
-want the best GMH things from your GMH? how public are you about how much you like them?

Longterm Plots:
-As mentioned above could include drives to change laws favorably or unfavorably for a house.
-I would like to see GMH pursue their own long-term RPTs:
    -ex. Salarr sends scouts out that find a village of tribals. They spend months starting a war between these people and another nearby tribe, then sell them both weapons. After the conflict, Salarr sells the location of the village to Allanak. Salarr informs the village and sells them new weapons, then sells better weapons to Allanak.
-I would then like to see other GMH given the opportunity to disrupt the long-term goals and RPTs of other GMH. This will involve multiple GMH PCs and PCs outside of those clans as conflict grows.
    -ex. Kadian-di-da is livid! They have been selling war spice in the boonies of the Vrun for a year now and their dealer comes back to tell them that some village is outfitted extremely well and threatening their economy.
    -ex. A-Kadian has no gortok in the fight at all but they like money. Their clever shadow artist spies found out about Salarr trying to profit off some village, and the Kadians selling drugs nearby. How can they profit?!?

tl;dr I think the GMH have a lot of opportunity for short-term and long-term competition- which could involve a lot of PCs in the game and help promote Tuluk vs Allanak conflict

The way GMHs were initially designed feels like a bit of an unforced error that was made in the distant past when they were first conceived, and it seems difficult to "re-conceive" them despite staff's best efforts over the years. Making them individual rulers of their own monopolies means they can't compete on product offerings because there will always be an NPC/vNPC push downward to remind, for example, a Salarri crafter that they should not be trying to make clothes or camouflage gear. If that delicate balance suddenly collapsed you could have significant competition on product grounds, but also there would be cultural pushback from those who (understandably) believe that Salarr makes the best weapons because they have the longest history of weaponmaking.

If I was writing the game, I would have written GMHs as the city-states' means of enforcing their economic will on the other's claimed resources. For example, House Salarr would be Allanak's supplier of goods made of wood and tortoiseshell. They would be semi-autonomous, overseen by the division of the Allanaki Templarate that oversees mercantile matters, but Tuluk would allow trade with Salarr because they bring obsidian and silt horror shell north to barter for wood and tortoiseshell. Sort of like how trade worked during the Age of Sail IRL with mercantile companies from Europe trying to conduct trade with the Japanese.

But I think that ship has sort of sailed now that the concept of GMHs is baked into the game.

Nowadays I think the best way to encourage competition between GMHs is to use additions to the game geography to unveil resources that all the GMHs need, and gently push them towards trying to get the advantage before anyone else does - or make them find a way to share it. But it would have to be something super-valuable or at least super-rare, and I don't know if staff are very interested in adding metal sources to the game.

While I don't disagree with most of the direction you espouse, in terms of "the game is the way the game is and has always been" isn't an excuse to me. It doesn't mean things shouldn't change.

It's our game. What's baked-in can be unbaked. GMHs and the world of merchanting could be done better. So I hope the staff has it in mind that they can change whatever they want.

Edit:

On that note, stay tuned for more in the Intrigue and Empowerment series, including:

Episode 2: Make Literacy Legal
Episode 3: Stratify Nobility

Quote from: Windstorm on September 24, 2023, 02:57:57 PMWhile I don't disagree with most of the direction you espouse, in terms of "the game is the way the game is and has always been" isn't an excuse to me. It doesn't mean things shouldn't change.

It's our game. What's baked-in can be unbaked. GMHs and the world of merchanting could be done better. So I hope the staff has it in mind that they can change whatever they want.

Edit:

On that note, stay tuned for more in the Intrigue and Empowerment series, including:

Episode 2: Make Literacy Legal
Episode 3: Stratify Nobility

I think we're playing different games, because it certainly isn't "our" game.

We have a fairly small community here and I like to think that means we all are a pretty significant slice of it. I try to own my slice and make it the best I can for others when I'm playing. I definitely try to have the most agency I can and make my presence felt even when I'm not in an important or influential role, which is usually. I'm never just along for the ride.

So yeah! I own my part in it, and I'll continue to. I don't see much reason to be cynical or view it any other way.

It would seem a shame to turn *everything* into a pvp war. I've seen times where GMHs have been exploited or manipulated in certain ways for gain. I'm sure there is opportunity for them to exploit and manipulate in turn. There do seem to be ways to encourage some bits of conflict without turning it into an explicit war. I appreciate the nuance in this game. Other games Ive played can be less nuanced and conflict is so forced it just gets a bit exhausting and tired for everyone. Right now, its a bit of a battle of who gets access to them, at least from what limited exposure I've had. I think swaying them this way and that is kind of cool and different.

This is one of those topics that I've thought about time and time again over the years and also one of those things that is in S-Tier rarity because I don't really have any clue what sort of impact it would -actually- have on the game.  Most changes of this type, people propose the change with <this effect> in mind, but there are a bunch of other effects that are not discussed until someone brings them up, generally in opposition.

If we're talking about making all merchant houses compete in terms of 'we all make everything', that might seem pretty good on the surface, but in terms of what that does in the playerbase for recruitment, prevalence, and thematic 'feel' of the game, it could have serious downsides.  An example would be a lot more targeted PvP as far for those who don't do anything other than craft what they're told to craft, as being a prime PC crafter for the dominant clan is a sure way to get targeted by all the other houses as a crippling blow; having the main forces 'stay in their lane' as far as what is produced keeps that at bay.

If we're talking about merchant houses being far more cutthroat as far as political play and being a lot less of a PC vendor, then I'd see this adding a great deal to the game insofar as we can come up with actual good storylines for it.  Boons in different places for different houses, less based on the usefulness of their goods in that place and more to do with their presence in that place's politics.  This is hard to pull off with only low-level political figures played by PC's, requiring a lot more staff play or a rise in the ceiling of what political PCs can actually accomplish.

I don't know what the exact impacts of switching this around would be, but I am certain that there will be other consequences involved that will continue to move this bar around based off of how players treat it in the future.  Zalanthan economics seems like something close to mercantilism, and we live in societies that generally hold up capitalism, so it's easy to see all the flaws in the real life systems we've left behind and hold up what we know.  I'm almost always resistant to thematic change.  But I do think there's a lot of expansion available as far as what we currently have, if we're willing to treat it that way.  Then again...I do love competition and cutthroatedness, I just don't think most players that I'm exposed to actually enjoy what that leads to in these arenas, the majority of the time.

Quote from: papertiger on September 24, 2023, 08:42:51 PMIt would seem a shame to turn *everything* into a pvp war. I've seen times where GMHs have been exploited or manipulated in certain ways for gain. I'm sure there is opportunity for them to exploit and manipulate in turn. There do seem to be ways to encourage some bits of conflict without turning it into an explicit war. I appreciate the nuance in this game. Other games Ive played can be less nuanced and conflict is so forced it just gets a bit exhausting and tired for everyone. Right now, its a bit of a battle of who gets access to them, at least from what limited exposure I've had. I think swaying them this way and that is kind of cool and different.

I don't disagree with any of this! Or Armaddict's longer post beneath it. But I guess my idealistic view of it would be that the standard would be more meaningful story-driven conflict. But that's probably my head in the clouds. I don't actually think the game itself needs more people murdering each other, I just wish often that it felt less shallow.

That said, the very idea of merchants that don't have to compete with any other merchants is just weird to me. Even taking violence or that sort of thing off the table, I would never have drawn it up like that.

I think my post might come off more negative than I intended it to.

I'm very cautious about big changes to the game, and this is one of those that I think has merit but requires a lot of thought and meshing into the game.  Just making merchants all selling the same things might detract more than it adds.

I can't really predict what pros and cons will come out of it without a firmer stance on how the competition would be expanded, and even then this is pretty shaky territory as far as predicting player behavior in reaction.

But I think if you can put a lot of thought into it, how the zalanthan world would behave around it, how to make it in theme, because it's an area that could add a lot to a part of the game that is often reductive in its involvement of story rather than productive; anything that makes them more than just PC vendors is a benefit, we just need to know the downsides.

Just like pretty much everything in life, or positions, people play them differently.

There have been MANY times over the years where people that play GMH roles have been biting horrifically at one another, and even killing one another in conflict.  And then on the other hand there are times of peace when they get along well enough, and even pursue things together.  It is the same with Noble Houses as well.  It all depends on how the leaders run things, and how their character reacts to the world.  Sometimes it will be hell on earth, sometimes it will be peaceful.

People complain when there hasn't been a lot of consistency from time to time with people wanting to play GMH's, or, having long lived leaders, because they cannot get orders that they want, and not to mention it is annoying for the crews to have to wait for a replacement to be found when their boss IS killed or stores, so, in such regard, not trying to make another GMH's life hard is a good thing.

Lastly, all major GMH's have their own niche that they work in.  Kadius sells fineries and jewelry, Kurac sells desert gear and spice, and Salarr sells weapons and armor.  The conflict there?  If someone tries to make something that might threaten their empire in their field, there is the conflict, crush them. 

Idea :  Build a player clan that focuses on trying to over throw Kadius or Kurac or Salarr, CREATE conflict.  Will you win?  Possibly not, but at least you had fun trying to enforce your ideas into the game.

I remember this one time, I was a noble, the greatest noble ever(huge sarcasm) Robel Oash, and a PC decided to make a competing mercenary PC clan to the byn. My Noble's nemesis decided to use them to stop the smear campaign I was using against them. In turn, I began to use the byn to counter balance their use of said PC clan.

The PC clan gave a Byn a good run for their money. They were doing escorts, supply gatherings, guarding, everything the byn would do. Things then began escalating with the Byn messing with the PC clans jobs and vise versa. It was great for everyone involved. The PC clan ultimately failed because the PC Leader died and well..You know our rules about PC clans.

I am writing that to say this, Kestria's idea is one I think would be great, if we had the same numbers we did back then. With the current state, I think it would be wise to have it set up as this:

1. Kadius - Premier and only Licensed merchanting house to deal in Tuluk
2. Salarr - Premier and only licensed merchanting house to deal in Nak
3. Kurac - Red Storm and Luirs - Spice and everything Nice.

How it would work, if someone in Tuluk wants Spice and or salarri grade weapons, They need to use said city state's merchant to make that happen.

Luirs could still be the safety spot where the Houses meet and agree on terms of sales between each of the houses, and working WITH each other to get things passed through senate etc.

That is my shitty strawman.

Quote from: LindseyBalboa on September 24, 2023, 01:35:25 PM

Quote from: Lotion on September 24, 2023, 01:23:12 PMThe only reason we can't have this is because literally everyone will outcompete nenyuk in the real estate market. If I was a kuraci gmh I would literally just build a shack in luir's and put lockable lockers in there that people can rent ala apartments.

I also don't think your Kuraci GMH would live very long if your junior nobody agent tried to start a war with the GMH that controls money. You'd be on a pile of bodies, bleached bones in the desert, or hanging out slack-jawed in an alley depending on where you were caught.

There's a living world to consider. If you step back and stop taking the world, theme, and in-game history into account then everything looks ridiculous.

In the world we have available to us, though, I agree with the notion and think that GMH have a lot of room for competition:

Short outbursts:
-bar fights, competitions, competing for contracts that touch on two GMH areas, violence between two hunters out on the desert sands, etc.
-Maybe Salarri crew know not to walk down dark alleys in Morin's, and Kadians are well aware that at night in Luir's it's smarter to stay in the well-lit taverns.
-Unaffiliated PCs or PCs that simply lean one way or another may join in - much like in real life
-want the best GMH things from your GMH? how public are you about how much you like them?

Longterm Plots:
-As mentioned above could include drives to change laws favorably or unfavorably for a house.
-I would like to see GMH pursue their own long-term RPTs:
    -ex. Salarr sends scouts out that find a village of tribals. They spend months starting a war between these people and another nearby tribe, then sell them both weapons. After the conflict, Salarr sells the location of the village to Allanak. Salarr informs the village and sells them new weapons, then sells better weapons to Allanak.
-I would then like to see other GMH given the opportunity to disrupt the long-term goals and RPTs of other GMH. This will involve multiple GMH PCs and PCs outside of those clans as conflict grows.
    -ex. Kadian-di-da is livid! They have been selling war spice in the boonies of the Vrun for a year now and their dealer comes back to tell them that some village is outfitted extremely well and threatening their economy.
    -ex. A-Kadian has no gortok in the fight at all but they like money. Their clever shadow artist spies found out about Salarr trying to profit off some village, and the Kadians selling drugs nearby. How can they profit?!?

tl;dr I think the GMH have a lot of opportunity for short-term and long-term competition- which could involve a lot of PCs in the game and help promote Tuluk vs Allanak conflict

If my kuraci GMH is making good money from apartments in luir's and then they get killed by minions of virtual nenyuk agents and nenyuk continues to not operate apartments in luir's then that would be really stupid of them because they really like money. Surely there could be some stupid downside that can be made up about luir's apartments to offset all the money they are making (including money from vnpcs renting there) but it would be some really arcane bullshit

Quote from: Windstorm on September 23, 2023, 03:13:02 PM-Non-competition relegates GMH players to wandering vending machines with little political relevance or aims for their own houses.
Instead, they're here to socialize, sell things, and buy stuff from hunters. That's mostly all they do.

Ummmmmm....this is not the case.