i don't know why a 'mundane' person would be expected to be on par, in terms of murdering capability, with someone who can call on elements and form them into magic.

a raider who can call on earth magic is probably going to beat a raider who cannot do that if they go 1 v 1.

they aren't built to be equal in terms of 1 v 1 fighting power.

there is a ton of utility and combat capability that isn't "1 v 1" achievable with the new mundane-only subguilds, though, that also give stat boosts that magic-users don't get.

imo there isn't a problem that needs to be addressed in OP any more than "a raider can beat up a dune stalker 1 v 1" needs solving.

Quote from: LindseyBalboa on August 29, 2023, 10:19:32 PMi don't know why a 'mundane' person would be expected to be on par, in terms of murdering capability, with someone who can call on elements and form them into magic.

a raider who can call on earth magic is probably going to beat a raider who cannot do that if they go 1 v 1.

they aren't built to be equal in terms of 1 v 1 fighting power.

there is a ton of utility and combat capability that isn't "1 v 1" achievable with the new mundane-only subguilds, though, that also give stat boosts that magic-users don't get.

imo there isn't a problem that needs to be addressed in OP any more than "a raider can beat up a dune stalker 1 v 1" needs solving.

You missed the entire point. MAGES can do everything a mundane can do but better.

Mundanes should be better at mundane things.

*mic drop*

They shouldn't.

There's no reason they should be equal. Balance isn't the point.

Even if we bring up the idea of "yeah of course someone who can use magic can beat a mundane's ass", I do want to point out that it then means there's little point in playing a mundane unless you want to join certain clans, which even then isn't a big deal because it's easy to hide and just max out your magic in red storm.

Lol, they have MAGICK to be better than mundanes when it comes to combat.

Why should they also be better than mundanes at mundane things?

Quote from: Doublepalli on August 30, 2023, 12:54:00 AMLol, they have MAGICK to be better than mundanes when it comes to combat.

Why should they also be better than mundanes at mundane things?

This is a good point with stuff like enhancement rukkians, alongside all the other combat magic and magic weapons.

Tell me you're angry your maxxed warrior can't just roflstomp any other maxxed warriors with impunity without you being unafraid because you spent 4259444 hours spam sparring into offense/defense stupidity without using those words.

Why should someone who has magick be shittier with a hammer? Because they woke up cursed with magick one day? You know, "cursed" with the thing that some /other/ enterprising mundanes broke the world to try and steal.

Why would you think I am angry? Bold assumptions.

Trust me, I'm much uglier when I am angry.

Logically this just doesn't make sense.
But hey, you're entitled to your wrong opinion

I didn't quote you because I wasn't talking to or about you specifically. I spoke generally, because that is how the general sentiment reads.

People who were magickers didn't used to be able to get as good at anything mundane as mundanes could be. Then staff changed that. Purposefully.

I was around during full mage guilds, and I can say with certainty that they had their own special, unique role. And were able to do amazing things.

Mages shouldn't be able to do everything mundanes can do.

Mundanes can't do everything mages can do.

This isn't about balancing, this is about making things realistic. Mages don't 'master' their magic in a short amount of time, that is roleplayed out over a long period of time, its not just a skill sheet, its progression of character.

They should not be on par with mundanes on mundane abilities, that's where I stand. Some people disagree, some people agree. So tough titty, you're ganna hear about it.

And hopefully, somewhere down the road, staff realize that subguild elementalists was not the best idea, even if - we appreciate you for trying something new, working for it, and hopefully, wrapping it up soon and going back to full guild mages across the board. Or you know. Take one of the suggestions in this thread about how to simulate mundanes being mundanes. Give a reason for mundanes to exist, there's way too many mages IG.

The argument about mages being limited socially is weak. Because nobody really treats them like the filthy gicks they are. Usually. Probably because everyone IS a filthy gick.

Their usefulness or dangerousness usually outweighs their social standing in terms of how they are treated.

Poisons used to be the great equalizer, and while it may have gotten out of control, they've been kinda over-neutralized in my opinion. They're still a difference maker, but not like it used to be.

Moving more of the Master skill cap level skills into subclasses, rather than in the main guilds would solve a lot of this.

Or, some easy ones:

• Make magickers unables to Wilderness Quit
• Remove ability to dispel active spells unless they have that one correct spell (like it used to be)
• Have an NPC or two in every civilization center with some sort of 'Detect Magick' active and apply crim code for any PC with an active spell on

I think the 2nd and 3rd points would do a lot to make magickers, particularly rogues, feel the social outcast part of the role that currently doesn't seem to practically exist outside of the docs.

Quote from: Doublepalli on August 29, 2023, 11:21:39 PMYou missed the entire point. MAGES can do everything a mundane can do but better.

Mundanes should be better at mundane things.

*mic drop*

lol not to take away from your mic drop but you told me i was wrong, agreed with me, then mic dropped.

perhaps more clearly: mundanes should not be better at mundane things than magickers if those things can be done magickally.

(like fighting each other in pk 1v1)

mundanes should be better at things that magick cannot replicate.

(like making friends and sitting peacefully in taverns)

personally i would like to see fewer magic classes with 'hidden' combat capabilities (ex. protective spells, stat-boosting spells);

 - and more mage classes with  magic that was more/all utility-based instead of combat-based

 - and magic reworked to show when active (perhaps cast in advance and then used as reaction when conditions are met, thereafter showing the spell briefly or for a time)

to shift the direction of magic as more of a living entity with everyday use than something that's grinded for combat

Quote from: roughneck on August 30, 2023, 06:42:04 AMTheir usefulness or dangerousness usually outweighs their social standing in terms of how they are treated.

Poisons used to be the great equalizer, and while it may have gotten out of control, they've been kinda over-neutralized in my opinion. They're still a difference maker, but not like it used to be.

Moving more of the Master skill cap level skills into subclasses, rather than in the main guilds would solve a lot of this.

Or, some easy ones:

• Make magickers unables to Wilderness Quit
• Remove ability to dispel active spells unless they have that one correct spell (like it used to be)
• Have an NPC or two in every civilization center with some sort of 'Detect Magick' active and apply crim code for any PC with an active spell on

I think the 2nd and 3rd points would do a lot to make magickers, particularly rogues, feel the social outcast part of the role that currently doesn't seem to practically exist outside of the docs.

take away wild quit and also keep them out of cities?

i agree that magickers should feel more like social outcasts but i'm not sure if taking away options for people to quit is the right way

adding some possible suggestions to build on the idea:

- residual effects from using magic that are visible and last for XX amount of time

- possibility of magic going off/being noticed randomly at times, potentially w/ destruction of surrounding property. make magic reflect reality.

- one of the big 'social stigmas' for magickers is that "Being Around Magic Will Affect You Negatively." a curse, spoiled milk, infertility, dead kids.
     -implementing more coded disasters for mundanes to blame on gicks would probably be unpopular, but what about actually coding residual curse effects that can rub off from being around manifested gicks?

- possibility of elemental magick having random, unwanted effects when multiple magickers are present in the same area. rogue gicks would want to avoid cities due to other rogue gicks, and non-hidden gicks would not want the negative outcome.
     - this would also pre-emptively discourage groups of gicks gathering for any length of time and achieving combat superiority in a region
     - being gemmed would override the negative effects of having too many gicks in one place, for the gemmed PCs

Quote from: LindseyBalboa on August 30, 2023, 08:22:31 PM

Quote from: roughneck on August 30, 2023, 06:42:04 AMTheir usefulness or dangerousness usually outweighs their social standing in terms of how they are treated.

Poisons used to be the great equalizer, and while it may have gotten out of control, they've been kinda over-neutralized in my opinion. They're still a difference maker, but not like it used to be.

Moving more of the Master skill cap level skills into subclasses, rather than in the main guilds would solve a lot of this.

Or, some easy ones:

• Make magickers unables to Wilderness Quit
• Remove ability to dispel active spells unless they have that one correct spell (like it used to be)
• Have an NPC or two in every civilization center with some sort of 'Detect Magick' active and apply crim code for any PC with an active spell on

I think the 2nd and 3rd points would do a lot to make magickers, particularly rogues, feel the social outcast part of the role that currently doesn't seem to practically exist outside of the docs.

take away wild quit and also keep them out of cities?

i agree that magickers should feel more like social outcasts but i'm not sure if taking away options for people to quit is the right way

adding some possible suggestions to build on the idea:

- residual effects from using magic that are visible and last for XX amount of time

- possibility of magic going off/being noticed randomly at times, potentially w/ destruction of surrounding property. make magic reflect reality.

- one of the big 'social stigmas' for magickers is that "Being Around Magic Will Affect You Negatively." a curse, spoiled milk, infertility, dead kids.
     -implementing more coded disasters for mundanes to blame on gicks would probably be unpopular, but what about actually coding residual curse effects that can rub off from being around manifested gicks?

- possibility of elemental magick having random, unwanted effects when multiple magickers are present in the same area. rogue gicks would want to avoid cities due to other rogue gicks, and non-hidden gicks would not want the negative outcome.
     - this would also pre-emptively discourage groups of gicks gathering for any length of time and achieving combat superiority in a region
     - being gemmed would override the negative effects of having too many gicks in one place, for the gemmed PCs

I like the idea of hemotes randomly going off when the character is stressed (low hp/mana/focus/stamina) to give them a chance to accidentally reveal themselves. I will say I don't like the curse stuff because putting mechanics into the game that encourages people to be antisocial rather than interact with eachother isn't particularly good for it.

Yeah, additionally, most tribes have openings for not 1 but 2 magicker roles. I'm not saying it wouldn't be fun to make it impossible for you to RP with your tribemates without constant problems just because you haven't chosen enslavement to a defiler and all but... that might make tribal roles hard on a level they really don't need to be. I'm all for stuff like enforcing hemotes at some points at least (I think it's really cheesy to subjugate all your magick perfectly with no hemotes to hide when it's clearly not always voluntary or else people wouldn't manifest to begin with).

Edit to add:
I don't see why taking wilderness quit from subs and classes that provide it just because someone happens to be a magicker. If anything there are a number of magick subs that ought to make it easier for anyone with it (with or without wild quit) to make camp in the wilderness. If you chose a guild or sub for wild quit, you should keep wild quit.

Mage hunting incentives/options:

Automate a Templar NPC at the gates of Allanak that allows players to drag an unconscious PC to, and the NPC Templar will identify whether or not they are a magicker for you. If they are magicker, the templar will gem them and pay you 1000 coins for bringing them in.

Or, give Mundane NPC's the ability to put gems on folks. PC's could take on a proper career as a mage hunter for the Allanaki Templarate, putting gems on rogue mages.

Quote from: roughneck on August 31, 2023, 07:23:51 AMMage hunting incentives/options:

Automate a Templar NPC at the gates of Allanak that allows players to drag an unconscious PC to, and the NPC Templar will identify whether or not they are a magicker for you. If they are magicker, the templar will gem them and pay you 1000 coins for bringing them in.

Or, give Mundane NPC's the ability to put gems on folks. PC's could take on a proper career as a mage hunter for the Allanaki Templarate, putting gems on rogue mages.

Oh that first idea has an extreme potential to be abused. The latter... Maybe if folks had restricted access to them/had to be employed as a mage hunter directly, otherwise every troll will just 'force gem amos' every unconscious guy they see.

Quote from: MatisseOrOtherwise on August 31, 2023, 07:53:37 AMOh that first idea has an extreme potential to be abused. The latter... Maybe if folks had restricted access to them/had to be employed as a mage hunter directly, otherwise every troll will just 'force gem amos' every unconscious guy they see.

Eh, not if there is no benefit to them.

Some way for a Templar to pay someone in Allanak to sneak down to Red Storm, knockout/subdue a rogue mage and put a gem on them would be great fun.

Still on the train of "no automated methods of determining if someone is a secret witch or not". If you have a 100% way to see if someone is a witch, it completely removes a large portion of the game and SEEMS to satisfy an urge to force people to play the way you want them to play.

You want to know if someone is a mage? Catch them casting. Catch them doing something magicky. Plant a dozen chalton skulls in their apartment and tell the local militia about it.

Check the mythos of the gameworld? The very setting of it, and its history, and what it is suppose
to be like?

Mages are suppose to be more powerful than mundanes. Currently, they aren't particularly so and can be very easy to kill if caught off guard.

Magic is already limited by manapool and spellfailures. If you are lucky to get one spell to land
at a higher horn, it's usually that, luck. Failed your spell, had to spend your mana on something defensive? Your target resisted your spell?
Too bad, you're out of mana and had your chance.

Furthermore that playing field can already easily be levelled by taking the correct approaches  such as skellebaine / charge and simple tactics.

Mages are already punished by being hated, actively hunted by other pcs in many places, outcasts
and taboo. Playing one means you must ready yourself for an isolated role with only a few select people
willing to interact with yours past anything superficial. That's the lot of a mage, as appropriate to mythos.

I've yet to see the friendship with mages? Where I play, and have play, i've seen them treated like outcasts.

Point is, there is a gameworld setting. There is a history. There is a mythos.

Mages are suppose to be much stronger than mundane people in the gameworld. That's the setting. That is the game.
There's a reason they are suppose to be feared.

QuotePoint is, there is a gameworld setting. There is a history. There is a mythos.

Mages are suppose to be much stronger than mundane people in the gameworld. That's the setting. That is the game.
There's a reason they are suppose to be feared.

Very true, totally okay with magick being powerful.  However, along the same setting and mythos, it is -rare-.  The general problem with them being more powerful is not the power in and of itself, it's the over-availability of that power as an option making it not just a no-brainer choice, but a choice that is wildly available.

Proponents for magick, myself included, ALWAYS say that it should be more powerful because that's exactly the role it plays in the world.  The argument always rises when the point is that you shouldn't -always have that option to wield that power- just because you like it.

Mages being powerful and scary = good.
Mages being freely chosen at will to break the scale of what is powerful and scary = bad.

Magick classes cost Karma

With these classes there comes the expectation to use magick responsibly and to roleplay responsibly.

In all my years of playing Arm I have never, never, seen anyone killed
with magic. I'm sure it happens and there are unhinged maniacs who earn the
reputation of just that. It's not something I have personally
observed.

All the pkill i've seen, especially from raiding has been mundane classes or overpowered
warriors one shotting people without any use of magick whatsoever.

Mages being powerful and scary = good.
Mages being freely chosen at will to break the scale of what is powerful and scary = The key point is here - they are chosen at will - .

Magic is already limited use wise by crim code in cities.
Use it infront of a guard at your own risk. Use it in front of other players at your own risk. Use it in front of PC's at your own risk.
Using it alco comes with the risk of revealing as a rogue, both in the city, and in the wilderness.

I don't think my post crossed over very clearly judging by response.

PK and power are not tied together.  Likely the largest upheaval of anti-magick sentiments from the playerbase came during a push of high mage population and their dominion in efficacy for plots, where they were highly involved in a sudden burst of very fantastical world plots.  It was probably the first real outcry I was actually involved in (as an observer) that I could follow what the actual conversation was.  I was playing a PC leader of a military group at the time and had to consistently juggle why the mundane had suddenly been reverted to bodyguard roles for a swathe of mages, over and over, as multiple storylines progressed.  So when you talk about the number of PK's involving magick, I don't think we're talking about the same thing.

Likewise, I'm not sure what point the insertion you made into my equation is trying to make.  Because it costs karma, it can be more common?  Because it is supposedly risky, the character-power creep is acceptable?  Because it is freely chosen, the idea that it is a better choice mechanically to make in almost every scenario is ideal?  That's not meant to be attacking with rhetoric, I just really don't understand what that I'm supposed to infer from that modification.

But the original idea was that this is currently an easy decision as far as making powerful characters, and as noted by the long-winded 'play in cities' thread, the isolationism from societies is not exactly the sacrifice it used to be because survivalism is found with relative ease.  If we want magick to be such a powerful upgrade, it should be less prevalent, not more.  If we want the decision between magick and mundane to be truly meaningful, the pros and cons for each are subject to evaluation in ways that make desirability of both more than just a player preference, particularly when we are vitalizing a setting.

There are allegedly a whole lot of mages in the game. If we only had mage main-guilds and no mage sub-guilds like before the subs were implemented and all mages were "manifested" codedly when they showed up out of chargen it might matter.

As far as I'm concerned every player in the game could be forced to pick a mage sub-guild during chargen, and it really wouldn't have an impact. There are mages that don't manifest right away. Some players want their PCs to manifest later, but the PC ends up dead before it ever has a chance to happen.  Some are secret mages, and no one even knows about it. Some are only somewhat secret - their own people know, but no one else does.

What difference does it make that someone is a secret mage, if their "mage-ness" has no effect on you since you're oblivious to it? Your character will continue to roleplay interaction with Amos, as if Amos was mundane. Seems like it's working as intended.

If Amos suddenly manifests, or casts a spell in front of you, or starts dripping sweat drops made of flaming oil, then you'll have a totally appropriate and justifiable reaction to that, and RP accordingly. But until then, your character doesn't know. And until then, your character has no need to know. So why does it matter?

I'm just not getting this at all. Sure - let's say 40% of all PCs that play over a 24/7 period of time in the game are mages. So out of the entire playerbase of a few hundred people, maybe 150 are some manner of mage.  Let's also say you only encounter anywhere between 2 and 5 that you're aware of whenever you log in for your 2-4 hour window, six days a week.  Without bothering to do the math, that means - you knowingly interact with a tiny amount of the playerbase that's a mage.

Why do you care so much about all the ones you don't know about, who are counted in that 40%?  You don't know who they are, you have no idea whether or not they interact with your PC. You don't know if they log in the same time you do, and you don't even know if they're ACTIVE PCs or if they created a mage and stopped playing for the past month.  All you know is that they're counted among the playerbase at large.

As for me personally - I've heard ICly about 2-3 that my PC hasn't personally interacted with, and met 3-4 personally.  That's 5-7 mages that my PC knows about, and has at least /some/ involvement with, whether direct or indirect.  My current list of "PCs my character knows" is two spiral bound notebook pages long. So an entire page of that list might be mages. But my character is oblivious, so it really doesn't make any difference at all.

If a mage casts in the Grey Forest, and you live in Red Storm, did the mage make a sound? Why do you care?

A mage cannot have bash, disarm, and wilderness quit.