Once you reach Private, both the AoD and the Sun Legions have an option to train against NPCs occasionally.  In part, so that those who really should be good at combat aren't always outclassed by the rabble (Byn), because of lack of other PCs to train with.

Quote from: Barsook on May 03, 2022, 06:18:04 PM
So, what are the plans around the feedback? Are we going have more "Coming Soon" posts like last year?

I would say some of the feedback has been incorporated already, although perhaps not in ways that were originally envisioned by players.

For instance, with the recent revamp to the Player-Created Clans documentation, underlying themes in the Feedback thread were incorporated as we discussed which direction to go, how much to change and what to change.

I would expect the longer term impact will be just that.  Not lifting specific examples from the discussions but keeping in mind the overall themes when we look at the direction to go with a change.

Stat change idea:

So, we all absolutely fucking hate rolling shit stats. You are more or less forced to kill off a cool concept (and name you can never use again) or play someone that's not going to fit your intended concept.

And yes, this can be fun, SOMETIMES. Because a struggling character can be interesting. Most of the time the player is dissapointed. I have read, time and time again, peoples complaints about rolling shit stats and having to store/suicide.

So here's my suggestion. Remove the shit stat rolls, but keep their slots. I'll explain.

Let's say the max stat roll is 10. That's your soft cap. And lets say 5 is Average.  Now lets say players consider 6 (above average) the base line roll for "decent".

rolls of 1-6 would return an actual resault of 6, while rolls of 7-10 will give their natural roll without any adjustment.

This "Safety Net" style stat roll means bad/nearly unplayable stat rolls shouldn't happen.  But this will also allow for the roll of super high stats to still feel rare and rewarding, because there aren't more rolls of 10, just no more rolls of 1-5.

Quote from: Brokkr on May 04, 2022, 06:14:18 PM
Once you reach Private, both the AoD and the Sun Legions have an option to train against NPCs occasionally.  In part, so that those who really should be good at combat aren't always outclassed by the rabble (Byn), because of lack of other PCs to train with.

These work great for clan characters, but don't address the issue at all for tribal/wilderness PCs.

Quote from: lostinspace on May 05, 2022, 01:30:06 PM

Quote from: Brokkr on May 04, 2022, 06:14:18 PM
Once you reach Private, both the AoD and the Sun Legions have an option to train against NPCs occasionally.  In part, so that those who really should be good at combat aren't always outclassed by the rabble (Byn), because of lack of other PCs to train with.

These work great for clan characters, but don't address the issue at all for tribal/wilderness PCs.

I'm guessing they're not supposed to. We're all supposed to be playing in clans if we want those advantages.

There are tribal and wilderness pc clans.

Quote from: lostinspace on May 05, 2022, 01:30:06 PM

Quote from: Brokkr on May 04, 2022, 06:14:18 PM
Once you reach Private, both the AoD and the Sun Legions have an option to train against NPCs occasionally.  In part, so that those who really should be good at combat aren't always outclassed by the rabble (Byn), because of lack of other PCs to train with.

These work great for clan characters, but don't address the issue at all for tribal/wilderness PCs.

They are meant to compensate for a combination of 1)  Limits on being able to go into the wilderness and 2) Ofttimes low clan populations.

While being in clans that are essentially militaries.

Tribal/Wilderness characters do not have that combination of factors to compensate for.  Nor are they in the military.

Nevermind that my comment was in response to something about training dummies, also not something tribal/wilderness PCs have, so you weren't even referencing the original comment mine addressed.

In terms of the combat grind, unclanned PCs have access to all the gortok/chalton they'll ever need to kick in the head instead of a sparring dummy.

What is the wilderness equivalent of NPC elf sparring opponent #2?

Quote from: lostinspace on May 05, 2022, 03:33:31 PM
In terms of the combat grind, unclanned PCs have access to all the gortok/chalton they'll ever need to kick in the head instead of a sparring dummy.

What is the wilderness equivalent of NPC elf sparring opponent #2?

I think the arguement isn't that they can go punch chalton.


It's the number of chaltons they have to send to drove before they are "good"

FWIW I'm speaking from personal experience here.

I played a wilderness combat PC that later on joined a clan with access to sparring NPCs.

6 IRL months of grinding combat on critters in the wilderness seemed like a huge waste of time compared to 1 month of progress with the NPCs.

Intended to be unequal.

Anyways, this thread is about the results.

24 - Player Agency / Empowerment - People feel like they're told 'no' too much, not given the trust to get big things done.  Impact to the world, glass ceiling.

This one seems odd. I've seen players make coded clans before.(Crimson Wind) i've seen players influence the politics of an entire city (ie: senate meetings in Allanak)

Wasn't Kurac losing complete control of Luirs based on players actions?

Wasn't The Templars of Tuluk "Unified" by Player actions?

Weren't the Red Fangs destroyed by Player Actions?

To much change can be bad, so i'm wondering what people are wanting with this.

Quote from: Fredd on May 05, 2022, 05:14:23 PM
24 - Player Agency / Empowerment - People feel like they're told 'no' too much, not given the trust to get big things done.  Impact to the world, glass ceiling.

This one seems odd. I've seen players make coded clans before.(Crimson Wind) i've seen players influence the politics of an entire city (ie: senate meetings in Allanak)

Wasn't Kurac losing complete control of Luirs based on players actions?

Wasn't The Templars of Tuluk "Unified" by Player actions?

Weren't the Red Fangs destroyed by Player Actions?

To much change can be bad, so i'm wondering what people are wanting with this.

I think they want things to be able to change a bit more fluidly. You should be able to, over time, get a group of people together and build something, make something a monument, tear something down, etc.

Glass ceilings are in reference to promotions. Red robes, Masterbards, higher level noble house rankings.

Lots of times things are just told flat no, instead of being offered workarounds, or at least, that has happened historically.

Quote from: sucre on May 05, 2022, 05:33:08 PMLots of times things are just told flat no, instead of being offered workarounds, or at least, that has happened historically.

This has NOT been my experience at all. Granted I'm "newish" been here a few years and reached two Karma. I've found as far as plots staff has been incredibly helpful, and bring their own ideas into the plot  make things more exiting.

There is a tremendous amount of freedom so long as you make it fun for lots of players and not mess with existing lore.

"Freedom within boundaries".

Quote from: stoicreader on May 05, 2022, 06:33:03 PM

Quote from: sucre on May 05, 2022, 05:33:08 PMLots of times things are just told flat no, instead of being offered workarounds, or at least, that has happened historically.

This has NOT been my experience at all. Granted I'm "newish" been here a few years and reached two Karma. I've found as far as plots staff has been incredibly helpful, and bring their own ideas into the plot  make things more exiting.

There is a tremendous amount of freedom so long as you make it fun for lots of players and not mess with existing lore.

"Freedom within boundaries".

This has been my experience as well.  The only problem in this area I've ever had is staff rotations causing my plots to just... end.  And that used to be pretty frequent (every some-aught months, if i remember correct) But this seems less of an issue these days as my last two leaders had plots survive staff rotations. So it seems like there has been a marked improvement in that specific area.

That being said. This is the second biggest category. So there's definately somehting that could use discussed and worked on.

Quote from: stoicreader on May 05, 2022, 06:33:03 PM

Quote from: sucre on May 05, 2022, 05:33:08 PMLots of times things are just told flat no, instead of being offered workarounds, or at least, that has happened historically.

This has NOT been my experience at all. Granted I'm "newish" been here a few years and reached two Karma. I've found as far as plots staff has been incredibly helpful, and bring their own ideas into the plot  make things more exiting.

There is a tremendous amount of freedom so long as you make it fun for lots of players and not mess with existing lore.

"Freedom within boundaries".

That's why I said historically.

Quote from: sucre on May 05, 2022, 08:41:37 PM
That's why I said historically.

Touche.  <3

When I first started arm. I felt treated like I was a teenager, not a grown up professional with a child and real life responsibility. After about a year, it was a different environment. My VPCs in my bio were being echoed, my plot was being used. It was thrilling. Later on even more so.

I still feel like some of the players are toxic, and the OOC community on discord is a place for them to spew their venom. And I quit a few times because of it - now I avoid discord.

If halaster is going to revamp the poison code, consider the OOC poison killing away great RPers. (Some of the friends I made OOCly in the game also quit.)  It's sad.

Quote from: Fredd on May 05, 2022, 05:14:23 PM
24 - Player Agency / Empowerment - People feel like they're told 'no' too much, not given the trust to get big things done.  Impact to the world, glass ceiling.

This one seems odd. I've seen players make coded clans before.(Crimson Wind) i've seen players influence the politics of an entire city (ie: senate meetings in Allanak)

Wasn't Kurac losing complete control of Luirs based on players actions?

Wasn't The Templars of Tuluk "Unified" by Player actions?

Weren't the Red Fangs destroyed by Player Actions?

To much change can be bad, so i'm wondering what people are wanting with this.

Because its who I am, I want to address some of these.

QuoteWasn't Kurac losing complete control of Luirs based on players actions?

Kurac lost Luir's because their military fort nearby got obliterated by the gith and they were no longer able to military hold power over the Outpost and the GMHs teamed up for a central locus of control. It wasn't like a couple PCs died and everyone said "Well Kurac loses".

QuoteWasn't The Templars of Tuluk "Unified" by Player actions?

I can't say one way or the other, but players have no agency in deciding how Templar roles are seen. Staff decided that the split between male and female didn't make much sense in the way it was portrayed. If you call staff members 'players', sure.

QuoteWeren't the Red Fangs destroyed by Player Actions?

This one kind of fits, but only because the Red Fangs themselves were a player created clan. If I remember correctly, there was some weird issues with the 'end' of the clan including characters that should have been dead not staying dead, and a zeal for getting rid of the clan entirely.

The way Arm is designed, players do have a little agency, but that is contingent on other player buy in and more importantly, staff buy in. If you can't get a staff member (usually an Admin or Producer) to agree with the direction you're going, the gameworld isn't going to respond. "Historically" anyway.


I am not a charismatic player. I don't know how to convince other players to join my plotlines. Staff GENERALLY are unwilling to dedicate their time to flesh out a single PC's plotline desires, and instead want other PC buy in so it has maximum impact. However, many players won't join you UNTIL they see there is actual movement. Its a catch 22.

Quote from: Riev on May 06, 2022, 08:42:52 AM
I am not a charismatic player. I don't know how to convince other players to join my plotlines. Staff GENERALLY are unwilling to dedicate their time to flesh out a single PC's plotline desires, and instead want other PC buy in so it has maximum impact. However, many players won't join you UNTIL they see there is actual movement. Its a catch 22.

With the judicious use of lying, players can create plotlines. I mean - it's all a lie, it's a pretend game where we all act out our characters.

"Come here a second, I'm assembling a secret team. A soh tribe was ambushed and their tribal heirloom, a copper dagger was stolen. I know who took it, and I'm assembling a team to go get it. We're going to need at least five people with some very special skills, a ton of practice. The dagger is wort maybe fifty to a hundred large for us to split. Ya down?"

Quote from: Riev on May 06, 2022, 08:42:52 AM

Quote from: Fredd on May 05, 2022, 05:14:23 PM
24 - Player Agency / Empowerment - People feel like they're told 'no' too much, not given the trust to get big things done.  Impact to the world, glass ceiling.

This one seems odd. I've seen players make coded clans before.(Crimson Wind) i've seen players influence the politics of an entire city (ie: senate meetings in Allanak)

Wasn't Kurac losing complete control of Luirs based on players actions?

Wasn't The Templars of Tuluk "Unified" by Player actions?

Weren't the Red Fangs destroyed by Player Actions?

To much change can be bad, so i'm wondering what people are wanting with this.

Because its who I am, I want to address some of these.

QuoteWasn't Kurac losing complete control of Luirs based on players actions?

Kurac lost Luir's because their military fort nearby got obliterated by the gith and they were no longer able to military hold power over the Outpost and the GMHs teamed up for a central locus of control. It wasn't like a couple PCs died and everyone said "Well Kurac loses".

QuoteWasn't The Templars of Tuluk "Unified" by Player actions?

I can't say one way or the other, but players have no agency in deciding how Templar roles are seen. Staff decided that the split between male and female didn't make much sense in the way it was portrayed. If you call staff members 'players', sure.

QuoteWeren't the Red Fangs destroyed by Player Actions?

This one kind of fits, but only because the Red Fangs themselves were a player created clan. If I remember correctly, there was some weird issues with the 'end' of the clan including characters that should have been dead not staying dead, and a zeal for getting rid of the clan entirely.

The way Arm is designed, players do have a little agency, but that is contingent on other player buy in and more importantly, staff buy in. If you can't get a staff member (usually an Admin or Producer) to agree with the direction you're going, the gameworld isn't going to respond. "Historically" anyway.


I am not a charismatic player. I don't know how to convince other players to join my plotlines. Staff GENERALLY are unwilling to dedicate their time to flesh out a single PC's plotline desires, and instead want other PC buy in so it has maximum impact. However, many players won't join you UNTIL they see there is actual movement. Its a catch 22.

This thread isn't here for debating, just expanding on the given info so staff can continue to improve so i'm gonna hold back on it. But I'de like to say there is a Lot of FOIC about the Templar thing. There was a lot more player involvement there then you'de think with the nobles at the time playing a large part.

but I get you. You feel like you aren't able to convince people to follow your plots, so they don't go anywhere. That is a toughy, but one Staff definately do need to hear about. Thank you for speaking up

edit: Didn't know red fangs were player made. That's pretty neat.