Armageddon General Discussion Board

I'm seeing a deficit of aides in game, or even of PCs who want to play aide types. Maybe the role isn't appealing, OR maybe someone out there just needs a nudge toward this fun role. I've played aides and aide-adjacent roles a lot, as well as nobles who had lots of aides/minions. So here is a guide for you, if you're maybe interested in playing an aide!

Note: This thread is not about any particular PC in game right now, whether a leader or an aide. This is not criticism of them. They all seem great! Rather, this thread is in support of the idea of playing an aide and how to have fun doing it.

Why should you aide?

• Get adjacent to future legendary PCs: Nobles, templars, and GMH family members are often the longest-lived PCs in the game. They often become the "famous" PCs that everyone remembers years afterward. It's fun to be adjacent to this.
• Get involved in plots: Staff-initiated plots are dripped to the playerbase largely through sponsored role PCs. If you're near one of these PCs, and that PC is good at handing out the plot candy, you will be directly involved in plots.
• Get involved in changing the gameworld: The gameworld only gets changed through plots. Some of these will be the plots you're involved in as above. Others may be plots that your PC leader has started and is pursuing. Your best chance at changing the gameworld in some way is going to be through a heavily plot-involved PC.
• Get more interaction than you can actually handle: Are you bored and lonely? You'll never be again! You'll be running the simplest errands for your boss and then be snatched right up for a conversation about Amos the Sorceror. You'll have three people Waying you at a time, and two of them will have the power to execute you immediately.
• Get plots directed right at your face: Do you want to feel the thrill of finding out there's a murder plot against your PC? Do you want to kill them right back? This will inevitably happen if you're playing the role well.

What type of aide are you?
Aides can have any type of class/subclass combo. Some combos make more sense for a role that will be 99% city-based. Whatever class/subclass you choose, please for the love of Tek/Muk make sure you can max out listen. You will be sad if you do not.

• Crafter class aide: The obvious choice. If you can mastercraft clothing, jewelry, weapons, armor, etc then your boss will love you forever. But also beware of getting stuck into a "craft this for me" role, because that's not much fun. Your emphasis should still be on being a good aide and hopefully your leader will support that. Consider a combat or sneaky subclass for interest or survivability.
• Sneaky class aide: Another obvious choice. But be aware that your skills/utility will not be the same as playing a full-fledged criminal type. You'll want to take instructions from your boss on how to use these skills in your role. Consider a subclass that will give you a hobby for downtimes and/or better combat survivability.
• Combat class aide: A non-obvious but fun choice, as long as you have a way to skill up. Being able to guard your boss? Knowing that you'll probably be OK when your boss' enemy comes at you directly? Leading that occasional RPT beyond the walls? Yeah, these all rule. But then you'll want to pick a subclass that gives you some utility/interest for when you're not grinding or tavern-sitting.

Find your leader
One of the most important factors in whether your aide role will be fun is choosing the right PC to aide for. The right PC for you to aide for is going to be a combination of the following:

• Do their playtimes overlap with your own regularly? Don't pick a leader you'll never see, this is fun for no one. However it's also nice when there are some times that your boss is not around!
• Do they seem OOCly fun to you? (Even if ICly intimidating.)
• Do you like their emoting style and/or dialogue style? Don't aide to a PC that OOCly grates on you. It's important to enjoy their characterization of the role.
• Do they seem to be involved in plots and handing out the plot candy? If you see them in a tavern talking about important things and not caring who hears, they are probably more likely to share plots with you.
• Do they seem to reward the PCs that are minioning for them, whether that's in coin or in bling or in greater plot access?
• Do their other minions seem excited to be working for them?

If you spot a cool leader PC that you want to aide for, and they already have an aide, you should PK their aide offer to work for them too. Yes, you can just ask to be hired in addition to their current aide. Then that aide becomes your frenemy and you compete to the death. Templars, nobles, and GMH family members almost always need a new aide/minion in game.

Know your place

• Study the current Allanaki rank table: https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Allanak%20Hierarchy. Your rank is not nearly as high as you think it is. If you've just been hired as an "aide" to a junior noble or blue robe templar, you're actually an "assistant." It's probably not the moment for you to get all high and mighty, and it will take a few IC years of effort for you to rank up and become special. That's part of the fun of the role.
• Understand the nuances of rank, influence, and other factors of social play: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,36595.0.html Plenty of discussion there.

Be competent and useful
Figure out what "competent and useful" means to your boss. Here's a non-comprehensive list of things your boss might find useful:

• Running errands (if you have the haggle skill especially)
• Relaying messages
• Coordinating meetings with other PCs
• Having your own meetings with PCs near your own rank
• Crafting things
• Organizing RPTs or other events
• Gathering information
• Gathering and relaying the news of the day, whether from rumor board posts or other PCs
• Knowing all the relationships between different PCs in the city
• Providing your thoughts/opinions/observations on PCs or plots
• Guarding your boss
• Recruiting other PCs for the clan or their plots
• Deal-making

Make friends
You're going to need to do some tavern-sitting on a regular basis. If you never want to tavern-sit, then aiding is not for you. You can't meet everyone you'll need to meet if you never tavern-sit. If you're not making friends, you're sucking at your job. (Sorry, I don't make the rules.) Make friends. Make all the friends.

You will need the following types of friends as an aide:

• Actual friends and/or love interests. These are the PCs that your PC would be really sad over if they died. They have the power to change your PC's trajectory (inevitably toward tragedy). You probably need a few of these.
• Less-close friends and acquaintances: These are your go-to PCs for when you need X. You will need a lot of these, ten to twenty.
• Frenemies: Probably you'll have a few of these. They might just be the other aides. Yes, you need to make friends with the other aides in the city, all of them if possible.

Recruit (use) your friends

• Your spies: You have a friend that works in an enemy organization? Perfect. Emotionally manipulate them until they're actually working for you instead.
• Your minions: When plots come your way, use the friends you've made (see above under "Make friends") to hand plot candy to them.
• Your clannies: Some of your friends might want to join your clan! Be awesome and it could happen.

Take initiative

• Under "Be competent and useful," we discussed that it's important to know what your boss' priorities are. Once you do know, take initiative on those priorities. Don't wait around for your boss to tell you what to do, instead make their job easier.
• Get hobbies of your own. You will have downtime. Hobbies help ward off boredom in this role.
• Pursue your own plots. Does your PC have a dream, no matter how far-fetched? Pursue it.

Negotiate your benefits
Here are some benefits you might get from your boss, either regularly or as occasional gifts:

• Gear (armor and weapons, maybe clan-specific)
• Pretty things (clothing and jewelry)
• Salary (you will never think it's enough)
• Food and water
• Housing / a place to store your stuff
• An interesting relationship (no, you do not have to romance/ERP your boss for it to be an interesting relationship, also your boss should be mindful of the consent rules for leader PCs https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Consent)
• Plot involvement

When you first start working for your boss, expect less than you think you deserve. It's Zalanthas, you haven't earned shit yet! Then, as you become more valuable to your boss, you can negotiate for better benefits. Make your boss desperate to keep you and you will prosper.

Don't die
If you've decided to play your aide as a hunter/grebber on the side, you will die. If you want to not die, don't do this. If you're OK with dying prematurely and missing out on the plots that your boss wants to involve you in, well, you do you. But long-term aiding and/or dying to plot is where it gets good.

I'd like to encourage you to try it.

I play combat characters.  I dislike crafting entirely.   I never thought I'd like playing an aide.

My favorite character was designed with the idea of getting him in Salarr to be a hunter.  Could never find the PC to hire him in, and ended up getting into a noble house's combat arm, which was subsequently closed.  He got folded in as an aide, and I was thinking, "This is really going to suck."

Much, much fun.  My PC got into things I never thought of doing.  He became close to templars and several nobles, he helped kill or ruin many as well.  He participated in all kinds of things I never even knew went on in the game, really excellent things brought around by staff and PCs alike. 

And if you don't think PCs can make lasting changes to the gameworld, you can.  He did.  He burned the Tuluki cotton fields.  And he did other things that had great effects on the time and place that he was, all planned out by the players of nobles around him.

Do it!  And go along with the plots your highborns make for you.  It's lots of fun.

Fantastic guide! I encourage those wanting to try the aide life to give this guide a go.  ;D

A successful/interesting aide run is also the most prominent sign that someone will be a great noble or templar when we are looking at role applications. I will personally always favor someone with a successful/interesting aide in their backlog over someone who doesn't have that experience.

I refused to play an aide for Season 1 as I wanted to do something else, and I had pretty much just finished playing a 'winner' of an aide.

Good stuff!

Aide is alternately a really tough, demanding, and unique, rewarding role. I often don't know even when playing it if I love it or hate it. It's high pressure without much room for mistakes. It's also an easy, vulnerable, common target. There's a certain kind of power but it's surrounded by pitfalls. All that can be kind of exhausting and I understand why a lot of people don't really go for those roles. In a certain sense, aides are sort of a lot of the stress without much of the protection or decision-making power.

Some sponsored roles can barely function without them, but it sure feels sometimes like there are a lot more sponsored roles than there are people who want to play aides. It's almost always sort of been like that, that I can remember.

All that's not to be a downer of course. It can be a blast too. But it's unique and uniquely challenging.

I don't know if this has changed but last time I played an aide it was a bad experience.

It's really easy to get burned just playing an aide in good faith. Anyone might kill you for any reason, including your own employer. You're generally seen as disposable. There's this strange clingy misogyny that seems to haunt female aides in particular.

I think if you hate X about being an aide and love Y, you are in the ideal spot.

An aide is an enhancement to noble players, not quite a tool but certainly a support and communications asset. Enemy noble players might target a noble's aide to avoid political issues but you're probably not going to be singled out unless you have been being a tit of some kind.

QuoteYou're probably not going to be singled out unless you have been being a tit of some kind.

In my experience, this isn't true. Aides are an easy target to kill. And players (previously, it's been a while for me) would kill them mostly because they're easy to kill.

Edit: And on top of that. I resent the idea where I might lose a lot of effort being put into my character because someone else decided "You've been a tit."

This is a collaborative game and as an aide, I would kind of want to create an interesting give and take dynamic. If it's a crapshoot on whether someone will decide to kill my pc over that, I don't see the point trying.

At the basic level, sure.

But if a noble has 700 hours on their person and is pushing five plots and you have 600 and are pushing two plots, who gets the go ahead to survive there?

I have been a victim of violent downsizing on the aide population, I have also been a very long lived aide. I think it's a little bit too unclear to have a strong opinion of as you almost always don't have all the information you need to make a proper call on whether a role ending was fair or good for the game.

Perhaps I sound a little callous, but I am almost universally collaboration over conflict driven. I'm just being open to possibilities.

Quote from: Inky on August 15, 2024, 09:37:36 PMIn my experience, this isn't true. Aides are an easy target to kill. And players (previously, it's been a while for me) would kill them mostly because they're easy to kill.

This is true. But it was pretty true of any character that was not a sponsored role. It just so happened that aides were often a tad easier to kill often due the demands of the gameplay style.

The whole point of 'PK' rules was to begin addresses the OOC discrepancies between players. This does not always mean you don't get pked or understand the reason, but it should be happening less and staff should be reviewing your murder. From an OOC level an aide, or dusty grebber should be given the same considerations as a noble.

That said, the staff still have to address a few elephants in the room, mainly revolving around the protection and benefits of certain clans due to historic play to win mentality within the game, which sometimes elevates players and clan roles to red templar levels of imbalance. This tends to either prevented conflict all together or sometimes creates a need for quick murder as an only option of resolution. As well as the existence of what are essentially PK clans, I'll use the now closed crimson wind as an example. And finally the lack of strong Mercy options. I digress though, some of this stuff needs its own thread.

I'm pondering the narrative about "aides are easy targets / easy to kill / die a lot." I feel like there's some truth there--obviously this has happened to players. But also I feel like it's probably overstated as a statistical reality. This is just my perspective from having played aides and aide-like PCs a lot, as well as sponsored roles with minions, and from being on Southern noble/templar staff. Yes, I've PKed minions a few times; yes I've had death threats and attempts on my own aides/aide-likes; yes I've seen aide PCs get PKed while on staff. But the VAST majority of aide PCs fizzle out and store, or die to boredom (adventuring). So I still encourage players to try out this role, especially if they see a cool leader or clan they want to join as an aide. I think it can be such an incredibly fun role and it has the potential to add so much for other PCs--not just the aide's boss but other clannies and the wider city environment.

And since this is a how-to guide, here are my recommendations for staying alive while aiding!

• Be useful and competent. I said this above, but I cannot overstate it. The more useful and competent you are, not just to your boss but to the others around you, the more likely it is that you'll survive whatever is coming your way. A useful/competent PC is one of the most valuable currencies in this game. Your boss will protect you. Your friends will protect you. Sometimes even your enemies will protect you, if they don't want someone else to kill you first!
• Expand your network of contacts. Then expand it again. Then do it again. Keep doing this. Never stop doing this. Why? Because this network of contacts is how you'll find out about threats against your PC. An aide with no contacts isn't good at their main job and is also hurting their own survivability.
• Don't disobey your boss or do obviously stupid things. This feels like a gimme, right? But going against orders and doing it repeatedly is the fastest way to die. When I've had to PK minions it's been because they tried to kill an important NPC, or because they were massively insubordinate, or because of a betrayal.
• Don't massively screw up by not knowing your own place in the hierarchy. As above! Learn the rank table, love the rank table! It's easy to get on someone's wrong side and become a PK target this way. If you need help with understanding rank/hierarchy/influence, ask here, or better yet find someone to teach you in game. There are PCs in game right now who are very knowledgeable about these topics who can help.
• Choose some combat skills. Again, as above, a combat-class aide is a very viable role. And it can be a ton of fun!
• Specapp an advanced start for your combat-class aide if you're really worried about survivability. Staff have said (in Discord) that this is equivalent to about a 15-day playing time boost in combat skills.
• Be aware that what kills most aides is boredom. Boredom leads to wandering in the desert when it's not really part of your job (DEATH), or it leads to storage (DEATH).

For what its worth, I think this season has been tremendously better at not forcing PK on players when they are clearly only engaging on the PvE or just world plot elements of the game. The PK conflicts and elements are still there for those that want to engage in it, but much easier to avoid for those that don't.

It really creates a much more ideal game for newbies and purely social characters.

It is also something to keep in mind when choosing a boss as an aide or when hiring an aide. Maybe some nobles should be looking for more combat/stealth capable assistants depending on what they want to achieve.   

If the attitude from other players is "be useful or die" then it's better to just not play an aide. And I think it's really telling that some people here don't understand how that attitude would keep people from trying the role.

Which is a shame because I like the idea and concept of the role. I'm just not really interested in losing my pc or having my time investment treated like garbage.

Quote from: Inky on August 16, 2024, 03:28:37 PMIf the attitude from other players is "be useful or die" then it's better to just not play an aide.

Which is a shame because I like the idea and concept of the role. I'm just not really interested in losing my pc or having my time investment treated like garbage.

I tend to agree.

From a narrative or storytelling perspective -- say Game of Thrones adjacent or Crusader Kings III, or the Godfather, or the Tudors -- Aides, courtiers, hanger ons do seem like low hanging fruit for political violence (or even just violence to send a message).

However, I think particularly with the new stronger stance from Staff on PK/PK Justification, we should consider more the player on the other side of the PC. There almost always is room for escalation, starting small, going bigger and bigger. Or more and more complex. Or more and more devious.

I've actually seen quite a bit of this starting in Season 1 -- I haven't really seen people jump to the murder button with Aides nearly as much (or at all really). I do hope the things Inky mentioned are things of the past, and that we can collectively appreciate a good nemesis, an annoying aide enemy, a counterpart, a "Mean Girl" that ends up being your best friend.

There's a lot of room for growth if we face those parts of the game that make us uncomfortable (PC Cast definitely included) and figure out a way to embrace that. Why did that Aide make you uncomfortable? Why did they annoy you? Is being 'annoying' enough of a reason to kill someone?

In a place like Zalanthas, players have argued yes, you can absolutely kill someone for being annoying. I would argue that makes for a poor story in a RPI.

If you believe that is a good story, I would challenge you to try a bit harder. The Aide annoys you? Hire someone to plant a cookie laced with terradin in their pocket. Find out who their friends are and spread some nasty rumors about them, as if they were told from the Annoying Aide. Plant some spice on them and pay off a soldier to take a look. Make their life difficult and watch them squirm. Offer them a way out of their own uncomfortable situation if they dance to your tune. Come up with a good villain laugh, and buy a hand mirror to practice.

Or...Just throw a knife at them.

QuoteAs well as the existence of what are essentially PK clans, I'll use the now closed crimson wind as an example.

Fact time.

When I staffed CW during the last year of season 0, the PK count of CW during actual raids was approximately 0 and the number of murdered CW players was three. Additionally a couple of CW affiliated people did PK some PKers. CW is always going to get crushed the second staff decides there should be a "world response" or a pack of gemmers gets invoked. By the end of the season even the sand lord was cracking down on them for playing their role and Kurac was plotting to betray them. 

Quote from: Inky on August 16, 2024, 03:28:37 PMIf the attitude from other players is "be useful or die" then it's better to just not play an aide. And I think it's really telling that some people here don't understand how that attitude would keep people from trying the role.

This is definitely not what I'm saying. Aides that aren't useful are...to be honest, usually non-entities in gameplay, just like any other PC that isn't doing a lot. My point is that being useful and competent is a shield against dying. Because the more useful and competent a PC is for other individuals and groups, the more those individuals and groups will protect the PC. This is a basic rule for all PCs in the game; if other PCs want your PC to NOT die, you're more likely to survive.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 16, 2024, 05:44:52 PM

Quote from: Inky on August 16, 2024, 03:28:37 PMIf the attitude from other players is "be useful or die" then it's better to just not play an aide. And I think it's really telling that some people here don't understand how that attitude would keep people from trying the role.

This is definitely not what I'm saying. Aides that aren't useful are...to be honest, usually non-entities in gameplay, just like any other PC that isn't doing a lot. My point is that being useful and competent is a shield against dying. Because the more useful and competent a PC is for other individuals and groups, the more those individuals and groups will protect the PC. This is a basic rule for all PCs in the game; if other PCs want your PC to NOT die, you're more likely to survive.

Thank you for that clarification.

Quote from: Agent_137 on August 16, 2024, 05:15:43 PMFact time.

 To be clear, I've never had any issues with the players of these clans, rather my issue is with the content they game is trying to support with clan level benefits.

I just believe the only 'PK' clan that should be supported and sponsored by staff should be Templars and Militia, which serves the game in both pvp and pve capacity, and have some very defined restrictions on what they can or can't do (openly). Militia is one of the clans that get the balance between restrictions and benefits decently right. Everything else can continue to exist virtually but PK groups in this game should have only indie level support. Most other clans have more going for them than just engaging in hostile interaction with players, when a clan like crimson wind stopped raiding they seemed more like an indie trading company. 

Additionally, 95% of the conflict in this game should remain at a personal level, its not organizational, despite people insistence to keep making thing involve their clans and get staff support to kill each other. The conflict lives or dies with the few players who started it and cannot resolve it peacefully. Clanned people engaging in personal conflict are already getting tremendous benefits and have significant advantages. Organization conflict like the one between kurac and salarr, should be carefully managed by staff.

Criminal indie groups will certainly have people wanting to murder them and have no clan level support, but the sandlord or kurac should not be getting involved to stop them from an organizational level, they are just too small and insignificant, that is the balance. OOCly staff should already be making sure these aren't just murder groups, so other than that its the player's problem to solve if they don't want to keep paying the fee of the raider every time they come around to flirt with their lover. The irony of this is that years ago, the argument would have been that it would make it too hard for certain merchant/noble roles to find the right people to murder each other with, but in today's game this would now be an extra benefit.

I really wish I hadn't left my amazing aide career feeling utterly jaded. I haven't been able to have a meaningful aide pc (and rarely even try) since then, and that was around 2015ish.

But if I can add anything at all to the already awesome ideas in this thread, it would be to, "Have a gimmick" of some sort to set you apart in the social landscape.

Nell made it to a Senior Advisor of House Borsail, and never once in her life did she own more than 2000 'sid, and that was maybe once, she was almost always broke. But she still managed to being a major political force (how an aide managed to have House Oash spanked, and a culling of drovians in the city is still my biggest achievement in this game, and likely always will be!) with the people that mattered.

Nell was a burgular/con-artist, her only crafting skill that she ever used was cooking. House Borsail had access to a minor, but seemingly rare fruit in the south, and Nell would harvest and use them to make pastries. These ended up being her currency, and it worked on everyone from a surprised Guild Face to the Templarate. A minor, and seemingly silly item to use as such, but I think the players involved with her at the time likely appreciated receiving something that wasn't just yet another a bag of 'sid.

One meeting with a certain templar was even scheduled on the promise that she'd have a tray of her special pastries waiting at the table for him. XD

So, that was her gimmick for the most part, and I'd urge anyone playing an aide to have such an angle that suits their character. Not only was it a fresh means of interacting beyond the regular huff and puff of stereotypical Allanaki politics, but it was fun from an RPG standpoint as well.

It doesn't really need to be a gimmick as a means of advancement either. It was out of necessity for Nell. I never intended her to become an aide, so she had no useful moneymaking skills that were legal/acceptable. XD It should be something that adds to the character to both make them memorable, as well as enhancing the rp experience of yourself and those you interact with. I can almost guarantee it'll make the aiding experience much more fun in the time.

Hopefully that might help some folks out!

Bad Nell, I always told Borsail people it was highly uncool to give the forbidden fruit to outsiders.

On a serious note though, this is pretty good.

I have never played a proper aide, in that I'd always be bad at something and good at others. And I agree that a real working senior aide should be in a similar situation to a real, working noble. You have access to plenty of funding, but you don't actually have much liquid coin on you personally. It encourages you to do deals with NPCs or PCs and kind of play a balancing game.

I think at the highest cash point in his career, Oahid had 1100 in the bank, maybe close to 2000 and he constantly tranferred coins from sales into the Jal or Fale accounts, he was in fact meticulous about doing so promptly.

Everything I learned about playing a noble well and being successful in that role comes from years of playing Aides and Atrium roles. Its very dependent on who you're 'aiding' for but if you get under a really good player it is always an amazing ride.

I agree that playing an improper aide is fun, too. I would actually encourage people to try being bad aides instead of competent aides. Cheat your employer. Develop a spice habit. Feed information to other aides accidentally or on purpose. Drop trays. It can make things a lot more fun for both you and your employer.

Sure, you might die. But if that's not a sacrifice you're willing to make in the pursuit of fun, I'm not sure why you're playing a permdeath RPG.

From what I've seen PC Nobles won't mind an incompetent aide (for most faults except like, direct treason) as long as they're fun to RP around.

Quote from: Valkyrja on August 22, 2024, 03:33:28 PMFrom what I've seen PC Nobles won't mind an incompetent aide (for most faults except like, direct treason) as long as they're fun to RP around.

They are all incompetent! Worthless commoners!!

Seriously though half the fun is house training them so they word like you want them too.

If only there was a place where people could learn to be aides... ;D

For right now: there doesn't seem to be enough interest in the role to warrant the Atrium to be open. Splitting up more staff attention is also a concern. Maybe in the future!

Quote from: Classclown on August 22, 2024, 06:20:22 PMIf only there was a place where people could learn to be aides... ;D

From what I can see, there are IC resources available in game if a PC wants to learn to aide. The Atrium is not the only possible way to do this. PCs that want to learn should try asking around.

My biggest issue with the Atrium is that you get fabulous instructors who want to shape the students a little too much out of whatever quirks and issues they have. So the aide ends up being a bastardization of whatever is the accepted norm at the Atrium and their own ideas, which kind of dilutes both.

Engaging nobles to say 'What do you want Aide Amos to be focusing on?' and back and forthing is probably the best solution, but is not always practical.

There is no one 'The Atrium,' it differs based on who is at the helm, like any other clan.

When I was an instructor, after you'd passed the basics like House ranks, how to address and introduce people, how to report, etc., you were supposed to work with your noble to pick your own curriculum out of literally anything. It made sense to have the aide be the one saying what the noble wanted.

The advanced curriculum was designed to be hands on. Most people chose things like 'music' or 'sketching' or 'cooking,' but we had one templar want an aide trained in interrogation, so I got to run a few questioning and torture lessons. That was fun. Or 'party planning,' which was fun too since the Red's got a party out of it. Your noble wanted you to pick locks? Guess you get to learn how to acquire picks and not get caught, here's the name of a Guild stooge.

I gave literally no shits about how the aide behaved, I'd just report it to their noble. If the noble didn't care that the guy was climbing around on the roofs, who was I to tell him to stop. (Gravity eventually stopped him.) (Or maybe defenestration.)

I'm not saying this to say that this is how the Atrium was in your day, just to illustrate that it isn't always this or that.

But this can be done without the Atrium. There is literally nothing stopping you, the aide, from working with your noble to figure out other skills to develop than bar-sitting and hob-knobbing. If you say you want to learn how to pick locks, most noble players would probably jump at someone with that kind of initiative and throw 20 lockpicks at you so you can spy on your neighbors. I sure would have taken that and run with it on any noble I played.

Atrium leader players are my favorites in the community. We know a special kind of struggle in Allanaki politics.  ;D

Gimf's Guide to Being an Awesome Aide.  NOW it comes up properly in a GDB search.

Quote from: Seeker on August 25, 2024, 11:51:35 AMGimf's Guide to Being an Awesome Aide.  NOW it comes up properly in a GDB search.

Nice! It'd be extra nice if player guides like this were vetted by staff and tossed on the website.

***snipped by moderator marshallDFX***

I've played me some aides and aide-adjacent PCs though, here and elsewhere. Even being someone who enjoys that sort of roleplay, my general view of it on Armageddon is that being an aide is generally a minefield full of potential problems but few resources except for standing you're somewhat dependent on other people to reward and understand the value of. Though not always, it can be a thankless role with more vulnerabilities and far less meaningful power than safety or benefits. You have to really enjoy political play in particular to want to do it because there's not much other reason to.

This is at least, in my opinion, partly because of how leadership roles often work on Armageddon - through role call special apps instead of it being a place that the PC has earned their way into.

We've accordingly had some inconsistent leadership in some areas and also some leadership turnover early on which has contributed to a slowdown in the areas where they're centered; if you'll notice, nobility hasn't been the only area suffering this for stretches. But even so, noble play has gotten going too, and for much of Season 1 here it's been bustling. It's possible you just haven't seen it.

More directly on topic though, why are there no aide players? Again, partly the structure of how Arm does these roles is to blame. Aidework is often thought to be a lifelong or at least very dangerous commitment difficult to get out of, and it's often to one of these rolecall PCs who's new, and that new PC the player may not ever comfortably establish themselves into, be consistent with playtimes on a role they're not yet very invested in, or find a good enough dynamic as a PC to play the role they're expected to in the gameworld.

Because the role is propped up by its nature in being a leadership role with resources even if those resources haven't necessarily been earned or if the player doesn't know what to do with them, and they're also suddenly having to manage developing the personality and sinking into what's otherwise a fresh PC they may not really know how to play comfortably.

Aides being by nature PCs that are invested in this otherwise unknown PC with an unearned position that the player may still be trying to figure out in terms of being a persona, it's daunting to begin with. Then, the role itself is a bit of a minefield -  and not in a way you can cover with coded skills - often underpaid, sometimes underappreciated in terms of the weight it bears, often unprotected and underdeveloped in terms of skills. Further, an aide is in significant ways powerless and dependent on the standing of another.

A suggestion I would have would be to expand the resources an aide can expect to have, at least once they're of a rank to deserve it. I'd gives aides of high enough rank an office for meetings for starters, possibly with a doorguard, and increase their standard pay across the board. Give them a tiny bit of agency of their own and I feel the role would be much more workable and desirable.

Further, I'd make templarate aides more akin to House aides.

Example: your templarate aide/advisor/etc, at least of a particular rank above junior, doesn't work for one templar and one templar alone. You work for the City Ministry, though you can be reassigned or fired in the right circumstances all the same, but your seniority isn't erased the moment a particular templar is gone. This is just silly how it currently stands. The templarate wouldn't just release years-long servants who know city and templarate business and secrets and still have value to a particular ministry's doings - they would be reassigned.

Maybe your boss is even an (v)NPC City Minister for stretches until a new PC templar shows up or pledges to a particular ministry.

One way or another, templarate aides need to be rewritten. This should be examined.

Further, ranking aides should be allowed - even expected - to read and write.

You would immediately see interest in these roles if they had actual privileges and resources they, in my opinion, should have.

Aides are personality characters. You need a character personality that other people want to interact with, do favors for, side with. That is where the real power of a good aide comes from.

Who your boss is?  Just bells and whistles and won't save the character if they don't have a compelling personality.

I don't agree, while it's ideal to have a personality an aide/noble DUO gets a lot more done, unless you are like an aide who everyone knows and has lived for a million years.

I have moved a post to moderation just in case people are wondering about context. R1.

You raise some valid points, though I must respectfully disagree with a few of them.

Take, for instance, the idea of Templars sharing aides. Generally, each ministry tends to have only one PC Templar at a time, so the notion of a ministry-wide PC aide serving multiple Templars is logistically improbable. More importantly, from an in-character perspective, no aide would be trusted with personal or sensitive matters—particularly the more intriguing aspects of service—if they were serving more than one master. This is partly why those who manage to survive their tenure under a noble or Templar often find themselves blacklisted: they're simply not trusted with sensitive knowledge. While a servant might serve multiple individuals, a personal aide would not.

Regarding high-ranking aides or servants being literate, the same common misconception appears again: just because one may not think such individuals exist doesn't mean they don't.

On literacy: It should not only be not hidden or secretive, literacy among truly upper classes of commoners (high ranking aides, bastards, etc) should be expressly legal and expected.

On aides: Templars shouldn't 'share' aides any more than nobles do, but like House aides, they're a part of a certain establishment. They need some kind of benefits from that establisment. Currently, they have none.

Mind, Templarate aides have the absolute worst setup possible in the game, almost. Here's a shortlist off the top of my head:

No free food.
No free water.
No barracks.
No hub for their work.
No friendly NPCs.
No private or protected spaces whatsoever.
No law exceptions by NPCs. (Got spice? Guess what, it's taken at the gates!)
Low pay.
And one PC, who does combat often and is a tremendous target, dies and they lose everything they've put into it. All seniority is gone. There are no transfers or retention of what might be years-long work available.

It is, almost not even arguably, the absolute worst job in Armageddon. Something needs adjustment.

Quote from: Windstorm on September 24, 2024, 01:50:21 PMNo free food.
No free water.
No barracks.
No hub for their work.

They're typically given access to the AoD barracks for those things.

Quote from: Roon on September 24, 2024, 01:57:49 PM

Quote from: Windstorm on September 24, 2024, 01:50:21 PMNo free food.
No free water.
No barracks.
No hub for their work.

They're typically given access to the AoD barracks for those things.

Your info's out of date, love!

They get none of it. None.

Once again, we're encountering the same issue—people mistake their assumptions for facts.

To clarify, a Templar's aide works directly for the Templar, not for the ministry or the broader Templarate. Why, then, would they have access to military barracks? There are exceptions, of course, but those are rooted in IC circumstances (FOIC).

As for Food/Water/Hub access, it's a similar situation. These things have gone through multiple iterations, including recently, and much of it depends on the specific Templar an aide serves. The baseline today is different than it was in the past, largely due to IC work. Yes, imagine that—IC actions can actually change the game world! Who would have thought?

Many of you seem focused on the coded aspects of gameplay, which has become common today as more people lean toward meta approaches. But what about the IC and RP opportunities? You're working for a Templar, after all! A commoner can rise to an impressive social status that few can attain (look at Senior GMH Agents, Militia Lieutenants, or Byn Commanders), and that's before considering the influence of the Lord or Lady they serve. And with the glass ceiling raised now? They can rise even higher.

The success of an aide is often directly tied to the success of the Templar or noble they serve, creating a fascinating dynamic. If their superior falters and lacks social clout, the aide's prospects diminish as well. But if their Lord or Lady excels, so does the aide's standing.

It's also important to note that new hires don't start as aides—they begin as servants and have to earn their way up.

Noble aides do have a more stable and less risky role compared to Templar aides, but from a coded perspective and RP one. Aiding a Templar is essentially "aide on hard mode," but it can be incredibly rewarding for those up to the challenge.

I mean, sure we can harp on theoreticals and how different people see these same opportunities and there can be endless "but it COULD be this way" but the fact is, no one is trying to get these prestigious jobs that lack any basic, realistic features for making play of them actually convenient and less tedious to a degree that even Byn Runners have.

Because from the most basic standpoints, they aren't desirable. People are doing almost anything but.

I encourage you to try it out yourself, have your schedule crowded, and have to take time out to go.. grind up the coin via some side gig to buy food and water or find a place to do simple meetings from your supposedly prestigious occupation in which you have no support whatsoever.

Theoreticals and could-bes really just don't stand up against the actual facts of how lacking the whole arrangement is.

That was one of the points that I tried to politely make. You assume that your perception is reality and go so far as to state "...against the actual facts of how lacking the whole arrangement is".

I would much rather just say FOIC because, really, you should. But in an age where people are posting about what branches what and how to twink I'll cave in a little bit; you're wrong. They can have access to free food, water, and meeting locations. If you didn't see that for a character that you may have played, or wherever you get that idea from, that's something to work out in character because there were probably IC reasons.

I've been around a really long time and don't really post much outside of clan boards but I see this very consistency and I have for decades - people get really stuck in an anecdotal fallacy. I can't estimate how often I see someone post something as "facts" but they are just plain wrong but it is rather common.

They really do get stuck in anecdotal fallacy, you're right!

This whole thread for example exists because people aren't taking aide jobs and you're telling everyone "No, it's your fault, everything's fine!"

When's the last time you played an aide, or a templarate aide?

I don't recall ever saying, "No, it's your fault, everything's fine!" Could you show me where I may have said or implied that? It seems like a red herring to me.

You made some statements that weren't accurate, and I responded by elaborating in what I believed was a polite and constructive manner. If I'm not mistaken, beyond mentioning that playing an aide to a Templar is essentially "aiding on hard mode," I didn't really inject my personal opinion into the discussion. I believe I stuck to factual statements—though I could be wrong.

For clarity, my personal opinion is that playing a Templar's aide is a challenging role, and it's certainly not for everyone. It demands patience, creative thinking, political savvy, and a thorough understanding of the documentation, particularly with regard to social and cultural dynamics. However, it can also be incredibly rewarding, especially if you shift your focus from coded mechanics to the richness of the RP experience.

You're shifting between the "could-bes" and the anecdote du-jour yourself now is the problem, and from your lack of answer I feel like I have to suggest that you're probably not a player of aides yourself, but sort of just speaking from the place of a third-person supporting the status quo instead of from experience.

For clarity, I'm speaking from a long stretch of personal experience across multiple characters and citing some very real problems with why nobody else winds up doing this job that - again, this thread exists for a reason - no one wants. "There is no problem, you're personally doing something wrong" is not an answer to what certainly seems to be a community problem, not some isolated one.

Aides aren't, and have almost never been, very desired roles. There's things that could improve them; I offered suggestions! Playing defense based on a presumed anecdote for a perspective outside of your personal experience for a visible problem that's almost always existed and continues to at present is just a pretty odd position to take.

If you think aides and being an aide - especially a templarate aide at present - is great, I encourage you to give it a whirl yourself.

Your assumption about me is incorrect. I have a rather intimate understanding of the dynamic over the last 25 years or so having written documentation, played aides, templars, nobles, and from other perspectives as well.

Once again, I was merely addressing the incorrect information you shared and offering clarity. Some individuals simply dislike being proven wrong and tend to become defensive, even when we're aiming for the same outcome. At this point, I concede; invicta pertinacia.

Quote from: Windstorm on September 24, 2024, 03:11:27 PMYou're shifting between the "could-bes" and the anecdote du-jour yourself now is the problem, and from your lack of answer I feel like I have to suggest that you're probably not a player of aides yourself, but sort of just speaking from the place of a third-person supporting the status quo instead of from experience.

For clarity, I'm speaking from a long stretch of personal experience across multiple characters and citing some very real problems with why nobody else winds up doing this job that - again, this thread exists for a reason - no one wants. "There is no problem, you're personally doing something wrong" is not an answer to what certainly seems to be a community problem, not some isolated one.

Aides aren't, and have almost never been, very desired roles. There's things that could improve them; I offered suggestions! Playing defense based on a presumed anecdote for a perspective outside of your personal experience for a visible problem that's almost always existed and continues to at present is just a pretty odd position to take.

If you think aides and being an aide - especially a templarate aide at present - is great, I encourage you to give it a whirl yourself.

It's funny people will tell you the role isn't broken for ages and yet, people don't want it despite how supposedly desirable. People too stupid or job actually broken? (FryMeme.jpg) I've had the same problems with trying to offer feedback about a number of broken roles and somehow both none of them are broken /and/ no one wants to play them, and the people usually telling me this are staff members who clearly know what playing it in this scenario (you know with all the "big changes to the setting" of seasons) or have tended to play 80% or more of the time as sponsored roles. I'm sure from the bosses side the role looks great.

I'm sure from the staff side you think 'that looks great on paper I don't understand' but when you puzzle about it, maybe actually take feedback from people giving it, they might know a thing or two. Maybe understand 'no u' or 'that's not what we want' aren't... ever actually going to solve the problems. If you 2 single individual people were everyone, I'm sure that you not wanting or wanting X would make it super awesome and fun and playable. But as 2% at best of the community... and with a vastly removed perspective from an actual average player... maybe your perspective is too skewed by your circumstances to understand the problem at all, that it exists, OR how to fix it.

And when it's clearly there, listening to people repeatedly arguing it's fine because that makes you feel better than acknowledging the need for change... is only shooting yourself in the foot if you want a thing to function or draw people.

Well, I mean, "some individuals" like to take the thread topic seriously, address a known community problem and not just play defense or pen a personal narrative of "proving someone wrong" with the bar for what we're calling proof either comedically low or fantastical.

But all the same, I'm sure you'll find that templarate aide role without issue since again, those jobs are widely available with no one clamoring for them. There's really no need to conjure an illusion of proof or declare it when it's right in front of you, love!

The aide system has always been to my observation very wishy-washy. Just speaking to my general experience of the role and observations of it in the past, you will always have someone critical of how you're doing things from above(from NPC animation, or other nobles) or below(other players for you acting like you are what you are).

Your social credit doesn't have an observable impact in 90% of things unless some very giving noble/templar wants to stomp out the "codedly useful" person who is acting above their station just to help you out. Most of the time, this is only for their own aide. Even that, that stomping typically doesn't happen(and some would argue is reasonable) because that person's usefulness 'is' their influence combatting the aide's, or so on. This all becomes pointless intrigue. Pointless intrigue dominates things already, and I don't think adding in major inter-house conflict will really change the overall roleplay there personally, but that's just me. It also creates more demand on staff to attend to those other things, which we're quite limited on with the current roster.

When speaking of the benefits(and in some cases, lack thereof) of being an aide though:

I believe part of their point about r/w was more that this is not a generally accepted thing, and it could serve as a great way to give players an obvious and meaningful reward for taking an otherwise difficult role with a high fatality/storage rate, and often a constant feeling of getting punched from above, or knocked down off of your tiny step stool from below. That's ignoring of course that the player base often reacts vastly different to different types of aides and the ones that get the largest social interactions (for reasons that may have nothing to do with them being the voice of a noble/templar) tend to be the ones meme'd on as the 'typical' aide.

As it currently stands, an aide that is found out able to r/w sirihish gets enslaved/executed. That hasn't been changed and while these things likely exist in the virtual and player realm in various amounts over time, they're quite rare in general to my knowledge. In a different thread of this argument, I was on the side of "high ranking" commoners being permitted to, especially if they were kind of "made" people expected to forever remain in some capacity involved with Allanak itself. Perhaps documented as names on a list, not able to retire to being some nobody in Red Storm.

I do however lean on the side of things that aides should generally be the iconic lesser voice of a given person(and personally think there should only be one, Highlander style), and not the voice of a broader system except through interactions with that system through that person(like a commoner wanting to interact with City Ministry by interacting with the aide of a Ministry Templar). I wish there were more distinguished and clearly outlined social expectations and not more "fluidity" to these things for interactions between the workers of nobles/templars and those outside, at least in the broader reinforcement of expectations between aides and other commoners, because this would give those aides more distinguished "benefits" in actual gameplay. I've noticed some stand out play over the years that made this better, but I've also mostly seen the other way around.

I do wish there were more obvious, tangible benefits and a very clear outline of progression for aides, and personally, I'd see them lifted even further up in status than they are. As it currently stands, I've been told directly before that an aide is only as useful as what they do for their noble, and what their noble's successes are, which tends to (given the population of this environment on an OOC level) mean that when you have multiple aides, whoever plays the "nice" and/or "sexy" one tends to become the one of power, due to social interactions. This creates a system where aides often have to fit into a very niche character design to remain competitive with each other, too. Reinforces the "aide" stereotype.

There's also more!

As an aide, you live permanently in the shadow(forgive the pun) of someone. You manipulate too hard, or you try to control too much, even if you're absolutely being clever and tricky, and you'll eventually see push back from it, (even from staff potentially) and I've always kind of felt like this is because people are picked for sponsored roles with a staffer having goals for them, and if you're too good at controlling things, they feel like you undermine their 'actual' pick.

As an aide in the current system, you aren't wealthy generally(the player economy is really bad, sorry), at least to any effective virtual "benefit" that is directly correlated to being "an aide" to the supposed uber wealthy elite. That's even if you have a great templar who is going to shake everyone down and steal their Welen's sids and give you a bunch. There's not a ton of things that aides can do with the coin when they get it even, except buy outfits/apartment or give it back to get more things done. And if you're a noble aide instead, I hope you picked sewing as your past time, because welcome to standardized pay that doesn't match the player economy at all.

The "safety" offered by the position often comes with the net neutral likelihood of being murdered by whoever wants to target you/your boss/your decisions for the betterment of your group, or because they're just annoyed that you acted like what you are. Yet on the reverse side, you could just be a relatively neutral person uninvolved in that side of things and selling swords to the Salarr shop and the 12 NPCs nearby, to make you a fortune. Meanwhile, progressing with little to no effort otherwise up to being a boss, getting a name for yourself, and eventually doing literally whatever you feel like if you just pay someone enough coin to ignore doing so.

An aide is not generally a great position to be in, for most people. It requires a specific kind a lot of the times, and many peoples' expectations have evolved with that in mind. I 100% am confident that a well-played templar working with a well-played aide can confer a massive amount of coded benefits to them, and also roleplay/life benefits as well, but I think part of the underlying thought here is in how it compares with the drawbacks, and whether or not they match well with the experience of... well, not being an aide, and just being easily rich and influential through the same systems without any of the drawbacks.

Now admittedly, I never went terribly far into the benefits of working for a templar, but these are just my thoughts on some underlying issues/ways to improve the role and not just see the exact same rotation of kinds of people that prefer to do it, over those who might otherwise have been holding back.

Don't have much to compare it to but just thought I would chip in that my experience with current aide-ly stuff is damn good.

Also really really found the original post helpful.

Definitely seeing a few aides around who seem to be enjoying it. Never played the role myself but I've actually been trying to land a spot this season!

Quote from: Cheddar on September 24, 2024, 04:00:31 PMDefinitely seeing a few aides around who seem to be enjoying it. Never played the role myself but I've actually been trying to land a spot this season!

If you are interested highly recommend it.  It's my first time exploring a role like this and honestly it's been a blast!

I do think there are significant potential problems with playing an aide, but they can be mitigated by player action.

• Aides not having access to food, water, salary, other tangible support from their employer: If it's not offered up front, negotiate for it. If that templar/noble really wants you as their aide? They will figure it out. If they hire you and don't provide? You walk. That's a fine outcome! The aide should know their value, a good aide is REALLY valuable, so if the noble/templar is smart they'll do what they need to do to keep their aide.
• Aides not being given anything to do by their boss: Again, tell your boss "boss I need work, I'm bored." Negotiate for involvement if it's not being given. Find your boss' mind an annoying number of times to find out if anything's happening and to volunteer your services. If you do all that and they still won't involve you in an interesting way? You walk!
• Aides not being treated correctly by other PCs: You can ask your boss to solve this problem, or you can develop enmities and enemies! This is fun! The interplay of rank and influence is Good, Actually. Personal politics mmmmm.

For me the benefit of playing an aide or aide-ish PC, or of playing a noble with aides, is the interaction and the plot stuff we can get up to, together. If you're aiding and you're not getting interaction, plot stuff, and tangible support, then YOU WALK. You're not lifesworn. They probably won't PK you (they weren't involving you in plots or interacting with you so there's really no motivation to PK).

For those playing leadership roles who have aides or want to have aides/assistants, please do pay attention to the above. If you are not providing tangible support so that your aide can eat, drink, and have an apartment; if you're not interacting with them regularly and providing plot involvement; if you're not at least helping them understand how to navigate in Allanak's social hierarchy...then start doing those things. Because yes, without support from the boss, it's not possible to play an aide-type and have fun.

I've given this thread some thought and I do want to provide some context to the aide role for people, because I believe that aligning expectations with reality is important for a satisfying player experience. This is all just my personal perspective on the matter and not the game's perspective on it, aka: my opinion.

Some of my creds, to provide context for me:
1.) I've played an Atrium Instructor.
2.) I've played 3 Templar aides.
3.) I've played half a dozen Noble aides.
4.) I've played a couple Nobles.
5.) I'm a Noble Storyteller.

Expectations of an aide role that will leave you unsatisfied:
1.) I can risk angering my boss.
2.) I will always have things to do.
3.) My boss values me more than their political connections or goals.

Expectations of an aide role that will give you a better chance of being satisfied:
1.) Being self-sufficient for basic needs like food/water. Take a subguild at least which can help you accomplish this.
2.) Finding your own social opportunities. This is a basic requirement and makes you useful as an aide.
3.) Understanding that while you cannot make demands of your Noble, you can potentially convince them to treat you better by demonstrating how useful you are.
4.) Every Noble or Templar has things they won't forgive - find out what those are early on and stay away from them.

Your Noble/Templar is going to look to you with an expectation that you are creating opportunities for them. That's your job, essentially. These opportunities come in the form of being a good little servant, gossip, socializer, thief, or murderer. Sometimes it takes a while to build trust! That's okay. Once they find you be dependable in the ways that they want, then they'll probably start showering you with special treatment. If they don't? Like Gimf suggests above: Walk away. Every other Noble/Templar in town will see you as valuable and try to hire you. (That is what happened with every one of my aides, anyway, when there was any hint that the other Noble was neglecting my PC.)

Your mileage may vary! I understand that sometimes you get a bad deal with your leader and it just doesn't work out - that's happened to me, too. It sucks.

Best of luck.

edit:
If anyone has suggestions of how to potentially improve the aide role, I'm open to that! I don't know how much I'd want to micro-manage the individual Nobles, however, as most things are their prerogative.

Not having something to do is only an issue when you don't know anyone. Even the most curmudgeonly aide eventually has contact with a good bunch of people that they can get information to verify, rumours to confirm or deny or a new contact to evaluate.

My key piece of advice for being an aide is to be a human, be good or bad at serving Lady Argentband's interests. Have an agenda to change all the street art in Allanak to rats. Parcel out information to Lord Templar Teandcrumpets on the understanding that he trusts you not to mess with his staff or pogroms.

But mostly be there to support and facilitate, not take over stuff. Unless you have to.

Quote from: Windstorm on September 24, 2024, 01:58:31 PM

Quote from: Roon on September 24, 2024, 01:57:49 PM

Quote from: Windstorm on September 24, 2024, 01:50:21 PMNo free food.
No free water.
No barracks.
No hub for their work.

They're typically given access to the AoD barracks for those things.

Your info's out of date, love!

They get none of it. None.

I mean, I've literally seen it happening this season. Templars' aides can be (and, I presume, typically are) given access to the AoD barracks and the facilities therein. That's food, water, a non-tavern quit room, a safe place to stay, and maybe even a locker if that's something they ask for.