::EDIT::
I've revised my idea to this:
So, I would say this would be my revised suggestion:
1) Have an additional line echo around the cast to show how /powerful/ the spell being cast is going to be.
The tall, muscular man starts casting a SUL water element spell.
- POWERFUL water elements seem to SWIRL and coalesce around the tall, muscular man, as he prepares his magick
The tall, muscular man starts casting a PAV water element spell.
- The water elements seem to coalesce around the tall, muscular man, as he prepares his magick
2) Increase the possible minimum spell delay for PAV and EEN by 1 game tick, and the minimum spell delay for SUL and MON by 2 game ticks.
3) Introduce a 'quickcast' spell reach, available for everyone, that reduces the minimum spell delay and has a higher chance at critical casting pass/fail - but not allowing the spell to fail with 'you lose your concentration'.
Original Post:
With the idea that combat has become slower, I would like to suggest this change:
When you cast the 2 highest spell powers, Mon and Sul - triple the cast time and have an additional echo saying that a lot of elemental power is flowing around your character.
The tall, muscular man starts casting a water element spell:
5 seconds later:
POWERFUL water elements seem to SWIRL and coalesce around the tall, muscular man, as he prepares his magick
5 seconds later:
the tall, muscular man utters an incantation:
When you cast the next 2 highest spell powers, Pav and Een - double the cast time and have an additional echo saying that some elemental power is flowing around your character.
The tall, muscular man starts casting a water element spell:
3 seconds later:
The water elements seem to coalesce around the tall, muscular man, as he prepares his magick
3 seconds later:
the tall, muscular man utters an incantation:
Finally: Introduce a new reach that is a "quick cast" reach - where you cast extremely quickly BUT you have more of a chance to do critical things - either critical success or critical failure.
I dislike this immensely.
This puts every single spell on the same footing as combat related skills and a significant number of spells aren't even combat related, for one.
Secondly, een is a 4 on a scale of 1-7, when literally the last time I played a (magick subguild that could do a certain illusion thing), who was not even 5'5 and only weighed 7 tenstone, you had to use a 3 on that scale to use it on yourself, let alone what you would need for someone elf sized, aka literally 1/2 way up a scale. And you think that should double the time it takes to... do everything magick related?
Because some people are murderhobos?
Gross.
I absolutely abhor this idea for all the reasons dumbstruck mentioned.
I've never used magick in PvP and once again a blanket punishment is proposed to be levelled on everyone because, as she puts it, due to some murderhobos.
How about not allowing murderhobos to play gicks? Or put a cooloff period on them at the very least as opposed to punishing people who haven't done anything.
Quote from: mansa on May 20, 2023, 09:44:57 PM
With the idea that combat has become slower, I would like to suggest this change:
When you cast the 2 highest spell powers, Mon and Sul - triple the cast time and have an additional echo saying that a lot of elemental power is flowing around your character.
The tall, muscular man starts casting a water element spell:
5 seconds later:
POWERFUL water elements seem to SWIRL and coalesce around the tall, muscular man, as he prepares his magick
5 seconds later:
the tall, muscular man utters an incantation:
When you cast the next 2 highest spell powers, Pav and Een - double the cast time and have an additional echo saying that some elemental power is flowing around your character.
The tall, muscular man starts casting a water element spell:
3 seconds later:
The water elements seem to coalesce around the tall, muscular man, as he prepares his magick
3 seconds later:
the tall, muscular man utters an incantation:
Finally: Introduce a new reach that is a "quick cast" reach - where you cast extremely quickly BUT you have more of a chance to do critical things - either critical success or critical failure.
This happened to crossbow use.. and barely anyone uses crossbows because they don't want to wait 30 seconds for the frikken thing to load. Leave things alone that do not need fixing lol
Oh, please. Bringing magic in line with other mechanics is a good idea. I'm all for it.
I'm against making it the same delay for the simple reason of mana.
There is already a limiting factor in how often and strong you can cast, and it's a hella lot less than two people going
Amos: Kill man
Malik: Charge man
Disengage
charge man
ect.
Even if I were watching my keyboard like a hawk, the delay can be so short I definitely couldn't type charge amos in the time it'd take for a spell to go off, no.
i am all in for nerfing mages in any way possible, including OP
Don't like this at all.
Mages are already very limited by mana and it takes a lot of work to get to the point where you can even cast strong spells with success.
As it is if you choose to cast a strong spell you risk wasting the mana with failure and limit your options with what you can do magick wise.
Systems works well as it is.
16 seconds to cast a spell? Haha. No. That's a ridiculous overshot.
Quote from: HazelHomewrecker on May 21, 2023, 09:43:00 AM
16 seconds to cast a spell? Haha. No. That's a ridiculous overshot.
Quote from: HazelHomewrecker on May 21, 2023, 09:43:00 AM
16 seconds to cast a spell? Haha. No. That's a ridiculous overshot.
Could you imagine! Just.. OOC wait there a moment mate.. it's coming.. it's... it's nearly there.. I'm just waiting for the fire to warm up/water to get wet enough...
(https://media.tenor.com/W3d5JWbi0ekAAAAC/megamind-sun.gif)
Quote from: mansa on May 20, 2023, 09:44:57 PM
...
The tall, muscular man starts casting a water element spell:
5 seconds later:
POWERFUL water elements seem to SWIRL and coalesce around the tall, muscular man, as he prepares his magick
5 seconds later:
the tall, muscular man utters an incantation:
...
I was thinking about this, and I don't like having the second line be delayed to show off the power level of the spell.
An alternative would be this:
The tall, muscular man starts casting a SUL water element spell.
- POWERFUL water elements seem to SWIRL and coalesce around the tall, muscular man, as he prepares his magickand
The tall, muscular man starts casting a PAV water element spell.
- The water elements seem to coalesce around the tall, muscular man, as he prepares his magickThis would eliminate having to have the game echo a second line to split up the delay. Just append a new line to the casting echo to display
how powerful the spell is being prepared.
Quote from: mansa on May 20, 2023, 09:44:57 PM
...
Finally: Introduce a new reach that is a "quick cast" reach - where you cast extremely quickly BUT you have more of a chance to do critical things - either critical success or critical failure.
This might be too powerful, because players would quickcast to ensure fails to branch new spells.
Of all the ideas I've heard to cut down the amount of mages, this is easily the worst. They would become nigh unplayable as this would be applied across the board to all spells, not just combat. Terrible. This is the sort of change that would actually drive people off.
Besides, what are you people doing to get such long combat delays? Filling your britches with sand? I'm not experiencing anything remotely like that.
I haven't experienced new combat, so bear with me. It was specifically mentioned that this was to go in hand with slowed down combat, i.e. that was a buff to delay-based actions in combat because non-delay, automated attacks now come slower/have lower overall dps. That's the posit. I have no idea how accurate that is.
So talking about this as a nerf to mages is not exactly accurate; they were buffed by that change. That relationship has been mentioned at least once.
I think the numbers thrown out there were thrown out more as example of concept than the actual number to be focused on. If combat is being slowed down, it makes sense for those elements involved in it to also be slowed down.
Yeah, fifteen seconds is pretty damn long - even ten would be. I'd just be happy with a guaranteed five second delay, which should in fact be enough to shove someone down or whatever. Spells as-is can be pretty damn instant.
nah
More of a counter to mages than adding a bunch of roundtime should be concentration checks. I know if you have a mage casting something and he gets mollywhomped (reel hit) he'll lose it. But even just a regular hit should trigger a chance for them to lose their concentration. I've fought a mage before where I get four hits off from the time he swirls with magick to when his spell goes off, hitting each one and then he still fireballs me. That's the bullshit part.
I think a dedication system would work and be a bit more. Say you can only dedicate (NUMBER OF SPELLS/4) with a minimum of 1. And to cast another you need to get rid of 1 you already have.
So starting off, you have a buff up, your magical energy is consumed and tied up in casting that buff, that you cannot cast your combat spells. Branch those spells, up to 5 or 6 spells. And you suddenly have 2 spells available, you can have a buff up, imbue an item, what have you, and cast a spell with it active. Get up to 8 spells, you've got 2 buffs active, and a free slot to cast spells. Or because of what I'm gonna say next, two slots to cycle your active spell and a buff.
Instant cast spells should have a lingering dedication, representing the elements grip on your focus and maintaining control that lasts about 5-8 seconds after casting.
Making magic more about tactical thinking, and preparation. Than about who casts the most spells at mon on themselves/their enemies before/during combat, and also early on providing the choice between imbuing/summoning an item, and buffing yourself, would create an interesting counterplay.
You're a corruption Viv? Well time to take down your mon poison you've got running on someone else, to focus on healing yourself. Because you're focusing on 2 buffs to keep you alive versus the mek and you need that extra healing slot NOW so you can flee.
This would also buff sorcs within the context of the system, compared to eles. Because I believe according to docs, Sorcs have more spells they can learn naturally. It would allow them to have more buffs up natively than an elementalist could.
Potential downsides would be elementalists grouping together and super buffing one of their combatants. But honestly, that makes sense in the context of tribals. And would leave the elementalists vulnerable themselves.
Vancian magic, as its known.
The downside being that all your ideas would've worked a year ago before magick was changed significantly vis-a-vis buffs and amount of buffs.
Also the spell lists would need a revamp as some elementalists are built to be utility based. I can think of one such elementalist, where one split would work with Vancian magic but the other split kind of requires 2-3 spells up at a time.
Quote from: Riev on May 22, 2023, 09:39:10 AM
Vancian magic, as its known.
The downside being that all your ideas would've worked a year ago before magick was changed significantly vis-a-vis buffs and amount of buffs.
Also the spell lists would need a revamp as some elementalists are built to be utility based. I can think of one such elementalist, where one split would work with Vancian magic but the other split kind of requires 2-3 spells up at a time.
Semi-Vancian.
Vancian would be limited casts flat out.
This is limited simultaneous casts.
Less focus on how strong something is in relation to pk might go a long ways towards making things feel more "fun and balanced".
Instead of messing with something that really doesn't need it... Why not request magick absorbing shields be made in game or something.
Quote from: Kestria on May 22, 2023, 03:38:19 PM
Instead of messing with something that really doesn't need it... Why not request magick absorbing shields be made in game or something.
Plenty of reasons. A: From a narrative standpoint;
That sounds like something only a particular type of mage could produce, and thus, by docs, wouldn't anyone who doesn't have magic, inherently not trust it?
How would a person, an armor crafter what have you, test their magic absorbing shield, other than by exposing it to magic. Which would inherently rely on magickers to test and invent it. Which is against docs.
B; From a gameplay perspective.
A gambit device like antimagic shields would be cool. But ultimately it would feel gimmicky and only patch over the problem of a game design issue.
That issue being, if we are to allow pvp to occur. It needs to be balanced in some way. Given that a branched and trained magicker can literally 1 shot most mundanes before they can land a hit. This is an issue for balance. Balancing magic with a negative social interaction, doesn't change the fact that that magicker can again, when fully trained can in 1 spell, 1 shot most mundanes that are not Mul or Half-Giant.
While also being as good as any other heavy or light combat class. Albeit without subjob for diversification.
As you can see, the balance issues are myriad. The solutions are not as easy as, "Just invent an anti magick shield" Because from a narrative and gameplay perspective, that solution is a dead end and a bandaid over a major balance issue.
Want my other suggestion?
You have a magic subclass. You only get 3/4ths-2/3rds of your main jobs skills and off/def.
Quote from: HammerofJericho on May 22, 2023, 03:18:46 PM
Less focus on how strong something is in relation to pk might go a long ways towards making things feel more "fun and balanced".
That is the opposite of how things normally go. PvP scenarios are the greatest cause of animosity for how strong/weak things are precisely because they are in direct conflict with each other. That is not just an element of Armageddon, that's across all PvE/PvP combined games where there is not an 'opt-in' system of PvP.
That being said, I wouldn't say 'balance' is exactly the end goal; Magick is supposed to be ungodly strong in certain scenarios and as far as world impact, which is why us lowly mundanes fear it, thematically. But as I said before, anytime you're 'retuning' combat, it makes sense to examine all participants of combat. I'd be much less standoffish in replies if that simple bit were acknowledged; I don't need the original idea to be -the way-, but we sure could use the opportunity to examine the system as a whole and make it richer while also keeping things on an even keel. Unless I see a statement that 'Increasing magick's effectiveness in combat' was a sought-after part of the retune, I remain on the side of the fence that says 'Yes, we should probably address that this made magick stronger in combat scenarios.'
All this conversation makes me wonder if there's been an inadvertent side effect of NOT having a karma jail.
Go ahead. Hate me even more.
8) 8) 8)
Quote from: DesertT on May 22, 2023, 06:41:26 PM
All this conversation makes me wonder if there's been an inadvertent side effect of NOT having a karma jail.
Go ahead. Hate me even more.
8) 8) 8)
The exactly expected result happened, being an uptick in magickers, yes.
That being said, I think mana is the limited factor. Though some spells still are quite powerful.
But I don't do a lot of PVP so heh.
I think uptick is selling it a bit short - staff mentioned in another post that pretty much half of all PCs are magickers now.
I actually do think cast times should be lengthened - some casts are pretty much instant which I think is wonky and can be easily rapidfired. But maybe not so much as was suggested in the OP. I do like the tradeoff for quicker cast times idea too, but maybe if people don't like the crit idea, then maybe just needing more mana for the given power level or something.
One way or the other, the first person to get something off usually wins. It's a system based on rock paper scissors and pvp/pk leads to animosity. The system rewards twinking and code. It's a big theme that conflict means war to the death.
I've seen arrows do 110+ hp damage in one shot. I've seen people get charged and instantly killed. Backstab that just drops someone. Sap.... Poisons are still effective although harder in practice.
So what is the issue with magick that is so much different?
QuoteSo what is the issue with magick that is so much different?
Those other methods you mentioned require a long period grind rife with danger in the vast majority of cases unless you find some method of non-twinkily doing it, which is difficult. Most risk-averse methods of training come with natural caps. Most of them require some sort of interaction with people in order to have the best chance of being protected. Most of them require circumstances to be in a good way for them to use it. Most of them are not consistently so deadly, and require unison with the part of combat that has been slowed down. Not to mention, most of them are freely discussed for changes without people saying that doing it would break everything, where even defenders of its need are welcoming to suggestions of alternatives to keep them deadly but make them more healthy for the game. Most of them can be made stronger via conjunction with magick in the first place.
Above all...no one is saying to treat magick differently. The discussion is based off of giving magick the same treatment that mundane combat received. Not singling it out. Including it.
Quote from: HammerofJericho on May 22, 2023, 09:09:16 PM
One way or the other, the first person to get something off usually wins. It's a system based on rock paper scissors and pvp/pk leads to animosity. The system rewards twinking and code. It's a big theme that conflict means war to the death.
I've seen arrows do 110+ hp damage in one shot. I've seen people get charged and instantly killed. Backstab that just drops someone. Sap.... Poisons are still effective although harder in practice.
So what is the issue with magick that is so much different?
Backstabbing requires many many many stabs to NPC's backs that can go wrong, leave you with a large delay and in combat potentially with multiple people, and/or crimcode enforcement. Sap, same deal. Charge requires you to get on a mount and fight things, generally outside the walls. Arrows require hundreds of arrows fired and missed, and unless in specific factions you won't get a dummy to practice on, so that means shooting at rats and then shooting at chalton, and then shooting at Scrab. And so o. With potentially dozens to hundreds of arrows broken as you step up a long ladder.
Poison is even more complex. Than those. And more expensive. And time consuming.
Magic requires sitting in an apartment/safe room casting "horn sphere element mood figure" over and over and over. And occasionally going out to harvest resources if you're practicing a really strong spell.
Don't get me wrong, thematically, I think magic is awesome. I think balance wise though, the effort put in by a sap or backstab user rewards the pay off of being able to SITUATIONALLY one shot someone.
I also think the training that Sap, backstab, et al, get, leads to more appropriate usage of those abilities.
I also think IF they were as potent as high end magic, you'd see a LOT more people playing them, just like Magickers. But you don't. Which leads to a natural question emerging... Why?
I just gotta say I need to get my hands on these one-shotting magickers ya'll are playing.
Quote from: Riev on May 22, 2023, 10:13:23 PM
I just gotta say I need to get my hands on these one-shotting magickers ya'll are playing.
The general perception that I have heard, in and out of character. Is that if a magicker wants your mundane character dead, and is on an even slightly even playing field. you will die.
It may not be 1 shot. It may be,
Fire spell for 80 health
sword swing for 20.
neg 5 health
Dead the next hit.
By 1 shot, I'm using the worst possible case, to indicate a place where the all or nothing balance point is unsteady. Because that fire spell that does 80 damage. That water spell that does a DoT for 200. You can survive maybe that. But can you tango with them after it?
In some ways, the magickers which use predominantly attribute buffs and high end weapon magicks, are actually a significant less of a balance issue.
The issue is when Amos Vivadus places a heavy mon horned poison on you, and there's literally nothing you can do except maybe take him with you; Oh wait. Amos Vivadus can heal himself too, probably. And also is a Raider, so has all the combat skill access you do.
This is a world ravaged by magic and ruled by sorcerer Kings.
Every mage I have played has been --underpowered-- compared to combat characters.
---The spells of master mages should be just so. Powerful. It fits the game setting. World history. Entire theme of the game. ---
Setting wise. Magic is SUPPOSE to be more powerful than the average man. Terrifying. Which is why mages are hunted and hated. Despised and condemned.
It's not suppose to be fair.
But code wise? Most combat focused pc's can easily kill even a master mage. Especially with some skellebaine and simple strategy. Currently mages are underpowered.
You get two shots at using a spell at high level. If you fail, you fail. If they resist, they resist. After that, you can't do anything high level.
That's if they don't get you with skellebaine first, or knowing you are mage, take the appropriate strategy against you when engaging and through code.
This is like asking warrior based pc's who spent a lot of honing their skills to finally become powerful to also be nerfed after a certain skill level just to make it easier to fight against them.
It takes a lot of effort to get a character up to such a level, and that's true for both fighting and magic pcs.
That's a lot of hours to put in, and a lot to survive through as magickers are hated and even hunted. One shots.. my pcs have been killed by combat characters simply typing kill x and killing my character in two blows . I've seen other characters killed in taverns by a bolt from outside, one shot.
Maybe allow those who have survived that long with a character generally despised, hunted, and reviled by society, to actually use magic at a potent level without punishing them for making it so far.
Ferret, with magick subclasses the fighting/wilderness PCs are often the mages too. Though magic does take time to practice it's one of the easiest types of skills to train with almost no threat to your PC if you're in a safe area. And it skills up quickly compared to combat.
I like the idea of potent casting taking more time but have no idea how to balance that. It's a nerf to some subclasses but wouldn't matter much for the enchantment magicks.
My ideal wouldn't be to weaken magic at all but to make it have a bigger cost. Social, weaknesses when casting or in certain conditions, through exposure to danger when training or through the loss of your PCs humanity. Full guilds may solve some issues (they're certainly a bigger trade off in skills/abilities) but we'll see what direction staff take it.
I've had maxed mages die to sap and backstab plenty. Even with higher combat skills. My spells didn't save me because you can't always roll around spelled up if you're being realistic. And if you want any kind of interactions you shouldn't be doing that. I personally give players the leeway to react in game and don't go for the instant kill. I think a heavier hand on people doing this with powerful spells would be the answer. Not codedly nerfing things when there's a poophead playing a strong mage.
Quote from: HammerofJericho on May 23, 2023, 11:11:54 AM
I've had maxed mages die to sap and backstab plenty. Even with higher combat skills. My spells didn't save me because you can't always roll around spelled up if you're being realistic. And if you want any kind of interactions you shouldn't be doing that. I personally give players the leeway to react in game and don't go for the instant kill. I think a heavier hand on people doing this with powerful spells would be the answer. Not codedly nerfing things when there's a poophead playing a strong mage.
All of the above, and bolded for emphasis.
Quote from: HammerofJericho on May 23, 2023, 11:11:54 AM
I've had maxed mages die to sap and backstab plenty. Even with higher combat skills. My spells didn't save me because you can't always roll around spelled up if you're being realistic.
What's this have to do with the discussion though? You mentioned your spells didn't save you in those specific circumstances - what would a longer cast time or other tradeoff matter in that case to those circumstances in that case? Or are you trying to suggest that because mages aren't 100% invulnerable currently, that they shouldn't be looked at?
I really think they should, given how many there are now - as such they are a big factor in game balance now. I think it's also important to keep in mind, as was already pointed out prior, mages can also obtain those skills that you're talking about with their main guild, and can do them even better with magickal enhancements available to them.
just shoot arrows from a different room and then leave the room you're in before they get a chance to look in the direction. there is no reason you should not abuse diagonal blindness in PvP. if a mekillot and use diagonal blindness to gank a fucking warband of shitcloaks then a single dude on an erdlu with a bow can absolutely juke a random caster
alternatively shoot an arrow, swap to melee, enter the same room and type charge/bash. then dismount->bash or just rebash
alternatively shoot a blowgun
bring a friend with a blowgun and then bash them after the dart hits
if they have a spell effect that makes melee damage not useful against them just shoot a lot of poisoned crossbow bolts at them
everyone gets the crossbow skill! if you can't get someone to put skellebaine on a crossbow bolt for you and are too afraid to run into combat with a few loaded hand crossbows then why isn't a witch so scary?
Is the goal here to make mages less desirable to play? Or are we trying to balance the game? What does a long casting time add besides the ability to stomp a mage when they try to use their magick? Just give mundane other cool benefits and stop trying to nerf everything in my opinion.
Bring Back Karma Jail!!
Quote from: DesertT on May 25, 2023, 10:52:26 AM
Bring Back Karma Jail!!
Because driving 1/4 of the pbase away at a given time to cool down is the way?
I mean, if you think it's the solution, I'll tell you the same thing I said before it drove people to sit out the game for months at a time waiting to play what they wanted to play originally. "You can't make people play what they don't want to play, you can only make people not play, so if your desired result is people not playing, go for it." How do I know this? I'm the exact person who will make a character they don't want to play, optimistically, then wind up letting it sit, unplayed, for months, until I'm tired of not playing, and then come back to play something I want to play. And that's not even the extreme of someone who just won't play at all, I'm optimistic and trying and just find the role I tried was... still something I didn't like, let it sit until I can't stand it, never playing it because it wasn't what I like or want, and then when something changes so I'm playing something I actually enjoy... actually be found in the game... a thing people do for fun.
Especially when you had to have an 'active' character for Karma to regen anyway.
I remember when this was a discussion board, not a pedestal for people to throw out unhelpful comments that just derail conversations.
... It was never like that? Shit. What am I thinking of?
Why is this conversation even happening?
Why wasn't it a conversation prior to the removal of karma jail?
Maybe it's because of how often people are playing magickers now, even to the point of taking a shot at someone, failing, storing, and then re-rolling a new magicker.
Mages have had more than a few buffs in the past three years. New subclasses, new spells, new features, dispel reach, removal of karma jail. Not even going to argue they weren't good quality of life fixes to make being a mage easier or cool flavor stuff to make magick stand out a bit more. But I think it's reasonable to look at ways to add a greater cost to using magick than currently exists. It isn't supposed to be an easy role. Stuff like increased casting time wouldn't break the game but I'm not sure that's the fix.
As for karma timers, I get people want to play what they want to play. But if mundane roles are not attractive to a good chunk of players then that is a serious problem for the game. Mundane roles are what a new player will get exposed to and when a large percentage of PCs are mages it becomes difficult to accurately play a mundane that hates and fears magick because you're limiting your RP options so much. Mundanes currently get overshadowed by mages in a lot of ways. Personally I think that's a problem for the game long-term and just leads to more people choosing mage subclasses because that's where the action is.
The discussion of karma timers should be its own topic. Its three clicks.
There has been some talk of codedly limiting the amount of active magickers in the game, by type, to try and reduce the effect of them.
Frankly, magick is more powerful than mundane. Thats just how it is. How many "world plots" happen around units of mundane players versus "that one super spooky sorceror and his undead army #15122". Playing a mundane is supposed to be the default, but the game does not incentivize the default. So of course, anyone who can play a magicker is going to bend that way.
Making playing a magicker suck is the same "punish everyone" attitude that is so prevalent. What if mundanes were empowered somehow? More plot support, more SUPPORTED hatred and distrust of witches both by staff and by players. Stop inviting every gemmed on an adventure because you can, and invite a mundane who is better simply by not being cursed with 'gick blood.
Increasing the time it takes a mage to cast is just punishing/nerfing/whatever and maybe we could focus on how to give mundane play a better feeling.
@op
That's a broad change, and a long delay. I like the motivation, but what's been offered is not a viable solution. I don't think it will solve things.
As a response to the discussion going on, I really dislike trying to roleplay in a roguelike, especially with any kind of karma roles or plot attachment, because the murderhobos doing so before me ruined it for those with less karma, or just coming up, and now the entire interaction between hated magickers and combat chars is just who can mechanically kill the other quickest. I feel like a minority in a war of really loud voices and maxed out chars for not (ab)using every possible advantage.
Quote from: Riev on May 25, 2023, 12:27:28 PM
Making playing a magicker suck is the same "punish everyone" attitude that is so prevalent. What if mundanes were empowered somehow? More plot support, more SUPPORTED hatred and distrust of witches both by staff and by players. Stop inviting every gemmed on an adventure because you can, and invite a mundane who is better simply by not being cursed with 'gick blood.
Increasing the time it takes a mage to cast is just punishing/nerfing/whatever and maybe we could focus on how to give mundane play a better feeling.
Exactly this. People have this knee jerk reaction to punish and nerf instead of trying to make mundanes better and other non-coded negative consequences towards magickers. It's the lazy way instead of the creative way.
Nerfing is a thing in games, calling it punishment is taking it far too personally. If your character gets their stats reduced for some action taken, that is punishment. If it's decided mages' stats have been skewed upwards too far, that is nerfing, not punishment.
That being said, if you go back a number of years, you will see the exact opposite of this idea, where mages were segregated and mundanes were the ones wanted for plots and the players of mages felt too ostracized and punished societally. There will be no 'feel good' solution to things of this nature, and it requires a mindset that is critical as far as notions of game design.
I'm not certain that nerfing needs to happen, or even adjustment. But it seems worth discussion considering that everything else in combat was changed, to see if other changes need to move things along with it, and the discussion is less about consensus between players and more making sure all the ideas are out there so that staff evaluation can happen with all their superior toolsets for knowing such things. But reducing discussion of whether changes need to happen, because of other changes, into 'punishment' is either poorly worded or poorly thought out.
Attacking others who propose ideas about adding increased costs to magick as 'uncreative' is unhelpful. Sure, some ideas may be nerfs. Mages also got buffs. Things change. Not all ideas will be winners but I think it can be a great creative exercise to discuss how magick should come with a price.
For the record, I would greatly prefer these costs mostly be social and not coded. I don't believe this at all works in a game built around interaction. It completely falls apart when mages are the majority in some gameplay spheres. To the point staff recently felt the need to code Nilazi and elementalist interactions, so I'm thinking even high karma players are unwilling to limit their RP to follow the documentation.
Eventually if all that's done is 'buff XXX' we'll just be playing Superman vs Mundane Superman. It's okay to rebalance things in a game.
That being said I am not personally a fan of this idea at all.
Quote from: SpyGuy on May 26, 2023, 02:35:54 AM
To the point staff recently felt the need to code Nilazi and elementalist interactions, so I'm thinking even high karma players are unwilling to limit their RP to follow the documentation.
I think this will always and forever be an issue with Roleplay games that have a coded backstop. Unless something FORCES you to interact in this manner, the only reason to do it is for the RP. Sometimes you just aren't into the RP at the time, or you're focused on something else, or any number of justifications.
Should elementalists be wary around Nilazi? Sure. Its documented, its in all the histories. But what if you're like, a really cool Nilazi with a nice personality who plays during my playtimes. Surely its okay to play with you and not worry about how you're the antithesis of everything that makes me special, right?
i think staff should commit to establishing specific setting related details about what magic is, where it comes from, and how it relates to the known
just let me officialize that zalanthas is a demiplane created by the original council of kings (who chose to embody themselves in the plane as the magick moods to preside over) but eventually shit got out of hand when echri the dragon planned to ruin everything and they sort of all just dipped. even so their presence remains in the form of the magic moods they impressed onto the world which is why we see tektolnes embody chran, sand lord embody viod, muk embody hekro/hurn (maybe he's now inrof or nikiz but i find that unlikely), the tan muark was ruled by grol, and the queen north of grey is probably actually inrof because of how curious the character was characterized at first in those stories brokkr published
these basic facts around the world are necessary to be established and be immutable because they form the basis for the world itself. all life is inherently tied to magic. "mana" is literally life force! it's why defilers must destroy life already on the zalanthan plane in order to generate enough magical power to weave a spell
Quote from: DesertT on May 25, 2023, 10:52:26 AM
Bring Back Karma Jail!!
No thank you. This creates a couple of things:
1. Only experienced players can be Magickers. To learn, you must die a lot, and learn through it. Being allowed 1 PC to learn about magick every 1-3 months is gatekeepy at best.
2. It creates a lot of "Spend a month in the byn, then manifest" PCs.
3. It causes magickers to play thinking of Karma Jail, and thus being careful for the first few months, instead of roleplaying their PCs.
4. It causes (some) people to reconsider acting to their PCs intention so as to not needlessly cause people into Karma jail by killing that high karma PC.
5. It causes people who like magickers to just not play. Can we really afford to hemmorage players?
So no thanks :)
Quote5. It causes people who like magickers to just not play. Can we really afford to hemmorage players?
To be fair, this happens in the opposite direction as well. People who don't want to play in a world where every other person is a mage won't play. Can you afford to hemorrhage them either? Hence why solutions need to continue to be discussed.
Quote from: Armaddict on May 27, 2023, 02:19:09 PM
Quote5. It causes people who like magickers to just not play. Can we really afford to hemmorage players?
To be fair, this happens in the opposite direction as well. People who don't want to play in a world where every other person is a mage won't play. Can you afford to hemorrhage them either? Hence why solutions need to continue to be discussed.
In one instance, you are taking away options for people to play.
In the other instance, people are choosing not to play because of what is around them.
Apples and oranges, mate.
Quote from: zealus on May 27, 2023, 11:05:56 AM
Quote from: DesertT on May 25, 2023, 10:52:26 AM
Bring Back Karma Jail!!
No thank you. This creates a couple of things:
1. Only experienced players can be Magickers. To learn, you must die a lot, and learn through it. Being allowed 1 PC to learn about magick every 1-3 months is gatekeepy at best.
2. It creates a lot of "Spend a month in the byn, then manifest" PCs.
3. It causes magickers to play thinking of Karma Jail, and thus being careful for the first few months, instead of roleplaying their PCs.
4. It causes (some) people to reconsider acting to their PCs intention so as to not needlessly cause people into Karma jail by killing that high karma PC.
5. It causes people who like magickers to just not play. Can we really afford to hemmorage players?
So no thanks :)
I would point you to look at Magick on the Armageddon website here:
https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Magick (https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Magick)
The first ten words describing magick are as follows: "Magick is a mysterious and very rare power on Zalanthas".
Yet weren't we recently told by Staff that something like one-third of players are currently playing a magicker of some type?
I don't feel that you have to die a lot to learn magick. Maybe some people just die a lot. I know I did for my first twenty-some years, because I played foolishly. Ever since Tariq, my longevity has went up from 2.3 days played average, to well over 20, nearly 30 days played. And there are some of you who have longevity averages in the triple digits.
I feel like you could say that playing a hunter means you must die a lot. Shoot, just PLAYING Armageddon, for a lot of people, means dying a lot. Learning magick has nothing to do with it. Learning Armageddon does.
My first magicker lasted over 20 days played before they were assassinated in their apartment. 20 days played. Again, I don't feel that magick has anything to do with it. It has to do with how you play Armageddon.
Who cares if people spend a month in the Byn before they manifest? Real twinkers know that you DON'T spend a month in the Byn. You spend it elsewhere first.
You can say that it causes magickers to think of karma jail while they're playing. I call it thinking of personal well-being. Most of us, once we've dumped 3 IRL months of playtime into a character, don't really want to just throw them away on a whim or take a random shot at someone we know we'll likely fail. EVERYONE should be careful playing their new characters. NOBODY should be riding outside of civilized places alone. This is why the Byn has the rules that it does. Same for the militias and other organizations. This is why leaders typically don't want their new hire to go ride out by themselves. Yes, there are exceptions.
What I notice that happens now, without karma jail, is that "some" people role a karma 3 character, take a shot at someone else's sponsored role or other long-lived PC, then when they fail, they store instead of facing IC consequences. Then they just role another karma 3 character, come up with a different angle to take a shot at a sponsored role or long-lived PC and try again. The lack of a "karma jail" enables this type of behaviour, which is also why there's been previous conversation about making dwarves a karma race, for some people's repeated PK attempts with a high strength dwarf targeting a sponsored role or long-lived PC. Now, we've just enabled folks to not just use dwarves, but any karma class they want.
As to folks holding off on killing other high karma characters, that may be true, but it SHOULD be true regardless. Killing other characters should NOT be our go-to response, regardless of the other character's potential karma level.
There are a handful of folks that sit in karma jail, waiting it out. I don't feel they are the majority at all. And they're not leaving. They're just waiting. Then what do they do? The role a rogue gick, fight a scorpion in a dark hole with a skinning knife, and die to a scrab. Guess what. They are still playing. And the only person they have to blame for losing that magicker is themselves, most of the time. Same with all of us who die far too soon. Again though, they play like that with mundanes as they do with magickers. Should we further enable that by taking away karma jail? Yes, I understand that some folks lose a karma 3 character too soon to other reasons NOT of their fault or doing, but that's typically not the case for most of us.
Also, thank-you Armaddict for your point. Some of us who like to play mundanes are now finding ourselves almost literally surrounded by magickers, when the website says IT SHOULD BE VERY RARE.
Oh yes, and there are people who run off and grind while avoiding RP. They've done this when there was karma jail, and they'll continue to do so.
Lastly, to Riev, opportunities aren't being taken away. You had a window, you likely played foolishly and wasted that opportunity. Maybe next time you'll learn and play smarter. Got it. There are exceptions, but those are just that, exceptions.
Quote from: Patuk on May 21, 2023, 05:46:52 PM
Yeah, fifteen seconds is pretty damn long - even ten would be. I'd just be happy with a guaranteed five second delay, which should in fact be enough to shove someone down or whatever. Spells as-is can be pretty damn instant.
I like this suggestion - it's basically a minimum time to cast.
So, I would say this would be my revised suggestion:
1) Have an additional line echo around the cast to show how /powerful/ the spell being cast is going to be.
The tall, muscular man starts casting a SUL water element spell.
- POWERFUL water elements seem to SWIRL and coalesce around the tall, muscular man, as he prepares his magick
The tall, muscular man starts casting a PAV water element spell.
- The water elements seem to coalesce around the tall, muscular man, as he prepares his magick2) Increase the possible minimum spell delay for PAV and EEN by 1 game tick, and the minimum spell delay for SUL and MON by 2 game ticks.
3) Introduce a 'quickcast' spell reach, available for everyone, that reduces the minimum spell delay and has a higher chance at critical casting pass/fail - but not allowing the spell to fail with 'you lose your concentration'.
Quote from: mansa on May 27, 2023, 03:20:09 PM
Quote from: Patuk on May 21, 2023, 05:46:52 PM
Yeah, fifteen seconds is pretty damn long - even ten would be. I'd just be happy with a guaranteed five second delay, which should in fact be enough to shove someone down or whatever. Spells as-is can be pretty damn instant.
I like this suggestion - it's basically a minimum time to cast.
So, I would say this would be my revised suggestion:
1) Have an additional line echo around the cast to show how /powerful/ the spell being cast is going to be.
The tall, muscular man starts casting a SUL water element spell.
- POWERFUL water elements seem to SWIRL and coalesce around the tall, muscular man, as he prepares his magick
The tall, muscular man starts casting a PAV water element spell.
- The water elements seem to coalesce around the tall, muscular man, as he prepares his magick
2) Increase the possible minimum spell delay for PAV and EEN by 1 game tick, and the minimum spell delay for SUL and MON by 2 game ticks.
3) Introduce a 'quickcast' spell reach, available for everyone, that reduces the minimum spell delay and has a higher chance at critical casting pass/fail - but not allowing the spell to fail with 'you lose your concentration'.
As a tick is 4 seconds, that's still 12 seconds, which is damn near the 15 seconds you were on about initially?
It's still a terrible idea, and especially because it would affect magick across the board - not just in combat. This makes it far more than just 'bringing it in line' with other combat changes as it would slow down casting in every case, in combat and outside of it. Come up with something better if you think there's such a massive problem with magick in combat, one which doesn't gimp it outside of combat as well.
Quote from: whengravityfails on May 27, 2023, 06:43:18 PM
It's still a terrible idea, and especially because it would affect magick across the board - not just in combat. This makes it far more than just 'bringing it in line' with other combat changes as it would slow down casting in every case, in combat and outside of it. Come up with something better if you think there's such a massive problem with magick in combat, one which doesn't gimp it outside of combat as well.
I really just added emphasis in places because the wording so encapsulated my feelings that I agree with every word.
Quote from: DesertT on May 27, 2023, 03:01:54 PM
Lastly, to Riev, opportunities aren't being taken away. You had a window, you likely played foolishly and wasted that opportunity. Maybe next time you'll learn and play smarter. Got it. There are exceptions, but those are just that, exceptions.
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I'm going to need to know what this is in relation to, as its at the very bottom of your post.
Currently, I am able to roll a krathi die, and then roll another one.
The suggestion of "bringing back karma jail" (which itself shows you know its a FUCKING punishment) means you want to TAKE. AWAY. MY CURRENT. OPPORTUNITY.
I understand you disagree, but you're wrong about what you have said. If the suggestion is to return to spending karma on roles, it will be taking away an opportunity I have, now. Full stop.
Quote from: Riev on May 27, 2023, 02:53:12 PM
In one instance, you are taking away options for people to play.
Nobody is "taking away options". You still have the option to play what you want utilizing spec apps if you really so desire.
The option isn't taken away. It's just more costly (spec app), or you have to save-up, put that character idea on layaway.
The option isn't taken away though. Just because you don't want to spend a spec app on a repeat character, doesn't mean it was taken away.
And I use the term "karma jail" because that's been a humourous description of it.
Quote from: DesertT on May 27, 2023, 10:41:47 PM
Quote from: Riev on May 27, 2023, 02:53:12 PM
In one instance, you are taking away options for people to play.
Nobody is "taking away options". You still have the option to play what you want utilizing spec apps if you really so desire.
The option isn't taken away. It's just more costly (spec app), or you have to save-up, put that character idea on layaway.
The option isn't taken away though. Just because you don't want to spend a spec app on a repeat character, doesn't mean it was taken away.
And I use the term "karma jail" because that's been a humourous description of it.
I think if I were to be told, when I had a strong concept of what and how I wanted to play and it weren't a spec app situation, that I had to wait a near month or more to play it. That I would make intentionally shitty characters or characters intended to be temporary, and then kill them or store them LITERALLY the moment my karma was back.
Considering how many people started playing again when karma jail was removed I'm not sure why anyone would think it would be a good idea to reinstitute it. All it would do is ensure a good amount of people would not play while waiting out their karma timer. I imagine the problem would be worse now with delves capped since that wipes out 1 karma roles (save the soon to be extinct extended subguilds).
QuoteIn one instance, you are taking away options for people to play.
In the other instance, people are choosing not to play because of what is around them.
Apples and oranges, mate.
No. It is a constant tug of war of 'playing the game I want to play'. Some people enjoy a low-magick setting, where it is rare, where it is powerful, where it is as it is described in description of the world. You can make that into semantics, but it is ultimately people determining that the way they want the game to be played is how it should be because it's what they want, and it's ultimately unproductive to use the basis of people leaving as a basis of argument for why things should be more for players A than players B.
Which is why I brought it up; not as a counter-argument, but as a 'stop using this as an argument'. It isn't one. It's a perspective. You get to say 'It's their choice to leave if they don't want to play around a lot of mages.' I get to say 'It's their choice to leave if they don't want to play a lot of non-mages.' They are not apples and oranges, they are the same.
Quote from: whengravityfails on May 28, 2023, 02:51:01 AM
Considering how many people started playing again when karma jail was removed I'm not sure why anyone would think it would be a good idea to reinstitute it. All it would do is ensure a good amount of people would not play while waiting out their karma timer. I imagine the problem would be worse now with delves capped since that wipes out 1 karma roles (save the soon to be extinct extended subguilds).
Just as a counter point, one reason I quit and stayed away from the game was removal of karma jail. Magick was already so common before the removal and it was one more act of staff catering to and buffing mages and the people who play them constantly. No decision will make everyone happy. What I can safely say is the state of mundane play is in a bad spot and has been for years. Mage mud just doesn't interest me.
Quote from: RheaGhe on May 28, 2023, 12:36:25 AM
Quote from: DesertT on May 27, 2023, 10:41:47 PM
Quote from: Riev on May 27, 2023, 02:53:12 PM
In one instance, you are taking away options for people to play.
Nobody is "taking away options". You still have the option to play what you want utilizing spec apps if you really so desire.
The option isn't taken away. It's just more costly (spec app), or you have to save-up, put that character idea on layaway.
The option isn't taken away though. Just because you don't want to spend a spec app on a repeat character, doesn't mean it was taken away.
And I use the term "karma jail" because that's been a humourous description of it.
I think if I were to be told, when I had a strong concept of what and how I wanted to play and it weren't a spec app situation, that I had to wait a near month or more to play it. That I would make intentionally shitty characters or characters intended to be temporary, and then kill them or store them LITERALLY the moment my karma was back.
The deviation from the topic from "magick should have increased timers" to "magick should be rare" is a derail isn't it?
Also: what is this nonsense with alternate sizes and fonts, it's a ridiculous attention-seeking behavior.
Back on the real topic.
Armageddon is supposed to be harsh for everyone. If your lame mundane char gets killed by a magicker murderhobo, you see the mantis head to remind you that you are playing in Armageddon.
You might feel bad about it. So let me remind you the oldest phrase I've known about this game: Welcome to Armageddon!
Magick is hated by everyone. That's why Allanak puts gems to the elementalists to keep them in line and rush out to kill those who refuse to wear a gem. We have had so many magicker murderhobos in the last 20 years I have been playing. It only added to the game as more plots.
Unless trained specifically for it, your mundane hunter/fighter/rogue should be scared shitless when he/she saw a Krathi tossing fireballs from his/her hand not push forward to kill that Krathi.
IMO this suggestion will not improve the overall playability.
I still miss the days when I took my hunters outside with the terror of the idea that a whiran could summon them up in the air anytime. Let things stay as they are.
Yes. I think increased casting time would be great. Combat skills have a signifigant post delay that spells don't share. They can be chained one after the other.
Instead of increasing casting time of whatever, just give every spell a 1% chance of just killing its user (and maybe everybody else in the room) when cast at a sufficiently high level.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 31, 2023, 09:36:57 AM
Instead of increasing casting time of whatever, just give every spell a 1% chance of just killing its user (and maybe everybody else in the room) when cast at a sufficiently high level.
That is so evil xD
I don't see how that's not basically just putting a new ceiling on what power levels are "actually accessible". And possibly trying to find a way to get gemmed outlawed in Allanak or something. I can't imagine any sane person would go above the power level that /won't possibly kill them/ so you're basically just making a glass ceiling for no reason. Or are you telling me you would (and feel you reasonably expect others) to just reasonably take a chance on dying every time they cast and don't expect behavior in such a way as to /just get around/ whatever portion will instill that level of risk? For people who want magick to be powerful and cool, nothing says 'I'm powerful' like 'You know this main function of my magick? I have to get half up the scale before I can even get it to work on a normal sized human for more than a single tick. And yet, if I go up more than two thirds of the scale I might kill everyone around me including myself, so no, I won't even see if I can do that, sorry, even though it would reasonably be and has been within my ability historically for my entire life so far since learning the thing, by the way, the scale is 1-7, you do the math'.
My original idea was a 1% chance of death on any spell at all.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 31, 2023, 12:27:43 PM
My original idea was a 1% chance of death on any spell at all.
Cool. That's... /totally functional/ and not going to /make wide swathes of people/ literally unable to justifiably access any of good portions of their character sheet in Allanak, their camps, etc etc, etc, as a knock on effect, if the world was to actual be realistic as a respond to that. And I'm sure that wouldn't lead to /any/ unhappiness. I'm sure it'd be great for people who want to play peasant simulator 27386 or hunterMud 248792. Cool. :-X I thought the idea was to get people into cities, not literally (in your estimate) "a cool half" of the people in them outside Tuluk or more, to leave them to function.
Difficult for the sake of difficulty, not for the sake of having fun playing a game.
The world should be very harsh and, as players, our responsibility is to play with that harshness.
Playing the game should not be harsh.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 31, 2023, 09:36:57 AM
Instead of increasing casting time of whatever, just give every spell a 1% chance of just killing its user (and maybe everybody else in the room) when cast at a sufficiently high level.
Now you're just trolling.
I was defending you on discord with someone saying you were being too mean, and then you post something like this? Come on man.
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/rABx7x46HjQdO/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47mmnqlqywhbuptmlo4wqhyku5w7lxmjnsmhxns87v&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
It's riskier levelling up riding than it is levelling up casting. Inject some danger and drama into the process and you might see people treating mages as they should.
I will say that I think tribal mages should be immune to it. They have the social structure and Ages of cultural practice go justify them being able to safely harness magick for the good of their people, and are less likely to fall into a kaleidescopic death ball of all elemental power rangers than your random Rogues are.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 31, 2023, 01:12:53 PM
It's riskier levelling up riding than it is levelling up casting. Inject some danger and drama into the process and you might see people treating mages as they should.
I will say that I think tribal mages should be immune to it. They have the social structure and Ages of cultural practice go justify them being able to safely harness magick for the good of their people, and are less likely to fall into a kaleidescopic death ball of all elemental power rangers than your random Rogues are.
The same thing you're trying to force on other people with this idea though wouldn't just, to use your parlance, prevent "random rogues" to "fall into a kaleidoscopic death ball of all elemental power rangers", it would also devastate anything like anyone considering playing a gemmed. Can you imagine what Allanak's stance would be on casting at all in the city, when that is the risk, and then you literally are asking people to put targets on their neck but walk outside of the city where people are playing target practice to try and "learn" or "use" any of their magick. Leaving alone bye bye any chance of any mage ever being employable (for why, that risk?) which, sure, but this also includes in use by the Templarate during stuff like going up against a sorcerer in the sands for example. Why would they ever? Like, literally what do you think this actually adds to the game other than making it scary to PLAY a magicker? Not so much to be around them, because why would they do a thing that might kill them? That literally just makes all magick pointless as far as I can tell. Unless, should your warrior's sword have a chance of killing him every time he swings it? Not like, letting him die to a fight, but actively kill him? Why or why not? What makes this different?
Gem captures the explosion and prevents Total Room Wipe. Gemmed just have to deal with a d100 every time they cast a big spell, templars still get their living weapons. Fixed.
Quote
Unless, should your warrior's sword have a chance of killing him every time he swings it? Not like, letting him die to a fight, but actively kill him? Why or why not? What makes this different?
Leveling weapons has some inherent risk and incentive to interact with others. Magick does not.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 31, 2023, 01:23:36 PM
Gem captures the explosion and prevents Total Room Wipe. Gemmed just have to deal with a d100 every time they cast a big spell, templars still get their living weapons. Fixed.
Quote
Unless, should your warrior's sword have a chance of killing him every time he swings it? Not like, letting him die to a fight, but actively kill him? Why or why not? What makes this different?
Leveling weapons has some inherent risk and incentive to interact with others. Magick does not.
And so making it kill anyone else in the room by dice roll automatically, THAT is the thing that is supposed to make magick something that will be incentive to INTERACT with others, rather than AVOID THEM LIKE THE PLAGUE?
Alright, sure, let's imagine that that is sincerely what you think. I don't understand the logic of this. Could you explain how this in any way does that?
You want magick riskier to level up, get rid of nil reach and suddenly (at least offensive spells) will require the same risk as live combat to level them up, due to requiring a living target.
QuoteAnd so making it kill anyone else in the room by dice roll automatically, THAT is the thing that is supposed to make magick something that will be incentive to INTERACT with others, rather than AVOID THEM LIKE THE PLAGUE?
Yeah, sounds good. Mage magick scary, make it risky to have and to be around. Make it so it's only safe to use for those bound by docs to restrict behavior to a more thematic representation.
QuoteYou want magick riskier to level up, get rid of nil reach and suddenly (at least offensive spells) will require the same risk as live combat to level them up, due to requiring a living target.
Yeah I proposed that back in 2016 (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50482.msg924167.html#msg924167) and it never went anywhere.
Okay, you say you want
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 31, 2023, 01:23:36 PM
incentive to interact with others
And lament that,
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 31, 2023, 01:23:36 PM
Leveling weapons has... incentive to interact with others. Magick does not.
I still don't see how your idea to give a chance to kill the user, OR everyone in the room is anything like
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 31, 2023, 01:23:36 PM
incentive to interact with others. Magick does not.
Could you explain how it does anything other than:
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 31, 2023, 01:34:30 PM
Make magick scary, make it risky to have and to be around.
And again, if that's your aim, fine, can you please not pretend like you are in any way encouraging incentive to interact with this? Because that reads as incredibly disingenuous, when you double down on saying that you really want this to make it scary and risky to be or have around, not to, in fact, as you claimed, be, 'incentive to interact' that 'weapons training currently has' that 'magick does not'?
Edit to add 'to interact' in last paragraph on proofreading belatedly.
With the adjustment to swing speeds, Subguild mages are now OP. The delay between casting three spells is less than that of getting two rounds of swings in. I think a nice middle ground would be to have being hit cause you to lose concentration, similar to how kick works.
I do not particularly like any of the suggestions done here. I'd rather talk about spam mounted charge, or other warrior badass lags and timers. Having played both, I don't see a issue. I would leave well enough alone.
Quote from: Krath on May 31, 2023, 05:48:47 PM
With the adjustment to swing speeds, Subguild mages are now OP. The delay between casting three spells is less than that of getting two rounds of swings in. I think a nice middle ground would be to have being hit cause you to lose concentration, similar to how kick works.
This is a really good point. Swing speeds are now pretty damn slow. Skills like bash, trample, and disarm have delays. Magick barely does - and it genuinely should.
Quote from: Patuk on June 01, 2023, 06:20:05 AM
Quote from: Krath on May 31, 2023, 05:48:47 PM
With the adjustment to swing speeds, Subguild mages are now OP. The delay between casting three spells is less than that of getting two rounds of swings in. I think a nice middle ground would be to have being hit cause you to lose concentration, similar to how kick works.
This is a really good point. Swing speeds are now pretty damn slow. Skills like bash, trample, and disarm have delays. Magick barely does - and it genuinely should.
How about reducing the delay for the skills, rather than increase the magick delay. I'm for easier, not more difficult gameplay. And I enjoy solutions that are positive.
I am with you on that JMH. The Issue I see is that if you Kick me while I am casting, you will have an 8-10s delay before you can do another kick and the Caster cant just cast a spell again right after.
The reason delays were put in for skills like bash/Kick/disarm/etc was to prevent people from Spamming it non-stop, same as with the kill command.
I believe reducing the delay for the mundane skills, and adding that same delay post sucessfully/Interuppted/failed spell, would be a fair compromise.
While I like the idea of magic codedly being scary for both the user and anyone around them, none of the suggestions I've seen here are all that attractive to me on that front and I think it would probably require like an actual rework of all the magic guilds. Which is kind of a wild thing to expect anyone to commit to, so...
Quote from: Krath on June 01, 2023, 10:53:19 AM
I am with you on that JMH. The Issue I see is that if you Kick me while I am casting, you will have an 8-10s delay before you can do another kick and the Caster cant just cast a spell again right after.
The reason delays were put in for skills like bash/Kick/disarm/etc was to prevent people from Spamming it non-stop, same as with the kill command.
I believe reducing the delay for the mundane skills, and adding that same delay post sucessfully/Interuppted/failed spell, would be a fair compromise.
This seems like the most reasonable compromise I've found, though I would like to suggest that the delays only activate like that when/if the 'you're too excited to quit' timer is going, because then feasibly it could not impact all magick everywhere at all times including every bit of magick that's not remotely related to combat, and if the proposal is about a combat related fix, then affecting everything outside of combat (99.99% of spells any pcs of mine have EVER CAST) shouldn't be subject to being readjusted like they were all for combat.
Solid Catch there DS. I like it.
Quote from: JohnMichaelHenry on June 01, 2023, 08:21:31 AM
Quote from: Patuk on June 01, 2023, 06:20:05 AM
Quote from: Krath on May 31, 2023, 05:48:47 PM
With the adjustment to swing speeds, Subguild mages are now OP. The delay between casting three spells is less than that of getting two rounds of swings in. I think a nice middle ground would be to have being hit cause you to lose concentration, similar to how kick works.
This is a really good point. Swing speeds are now pretty damn slow. Skills like bash, trample, and disarm have delays. Magick barely does - and it genuinely should.
How about reducing the delay for the skills, rather than increase the magick delay. I'm for easier, not more difficult gameplay. And I enjoy solutions that are positive.
Those delays going down won't make combat any easier, it just means the guy disarming you does it once every two seconds (mage cast speeds) rather than once every ten.
Quote from: Patuk on June 01, 2023, 01:48:10 PM
Quote from: JohnMichaelHenry on June 01, 2023, 08:21:31 AM
Quote from: Patuk on June 01, 2023, 06:20:05 AM
Quote from: Krath on May 31, 2023, 05:48:47 PM
With the adjustment to swing speeds, Subguild mages are now OP. The delay between casting three spells is less than that of getting two rounds of swings in. I think a nice middle ground would be to have being hit cause you to lose concentration, similar to how kick works.
This is a really good point. Swing speeds are now pretty damn slow. Skills like bash, trample, and disarm have delays. Magick barely does - and it genuinely should.
How about reducing the delay for the skills, rather than increase the magick delay. I'm for easier, not more difficult gameplay. And I enjoy solutions that are positive.
Those delays going down won't make combat any easier, it just means the guy disarming you does it once every two seconds (mage cast speeds) rather than once every ten.
I'd probably quit playing altogether at that point. Combat's bad enough if you're not Heavy Combat, which is already dominant. Combat manoeuvres have no real defence you can develop IG.
Quote from: Case on June 01, 2023, 02:07:43 PM
Quote from: Patuk on June 01, 2023, 01:48:10 PM
Quote from: JohnMichaelHenry on June 01, 2023, 08:21:31 AM
Quote from: Patuk on June 01, 2023, 06:20:05 AM
Quote from: Krath on May 31, 2023, 05:48:47 PM
With the adjustment to swing speeds, Subguild mages are now OP. The delay between casting three spells is less than that of getting two rounds of swings in. I think a nice middle ground would be to have being hit cause you to lose concentration, similar to how kick works.
This is a really good point. Swing speeds are now pretty damn slow. Skills like bash, trample, and disarm have delays. Magick barely does - and it genuinely should.
How about reducing the delay for the skills, rather than increase the magick delay. I'm for easier, not more difficult gameplay. And I enjoy solutions that are positive.
Those delays going down won't make combat any easier, it just means the guy disarming you does it once every two seconds (mage cast speeds) rather than once every ten.
I'd probably quit playing altogether at that point. Combat's bad enough if you're not Heavy Combat, which is already dominant. Combat manoeuvres have no real defence you can develop IG.
Yes.
So, let us bring chain-casting spells in combat in line with other maneuvers, and make sure the delay is there. Attacks of opportunity would be nice, too. You're telling me changing hands will provoke one, but fucking casting a spell won't?
If they're in timing parity, kick and bash shouldn't interrupt or block casting, imo.
Quote from: Patuk on June 01, 2023, 02:17:27 PM
So, let us bring chain-casting spells in combat in line with other maneuvers, and make sure the delay is there. Attacks of opportunity would be nice, too. You're telling me changing hands will provoke one, but fucking casting a spell won't?
I agree with this one part:
Casting a spell mid-combat should provoke an attack like changing hands or attempting to flee. Combined with the chance to lose concentration on being hit. Magick in Arm SEEMS to follow the "Verbal, Somatic, Material" of DnD, and if there's a movement or somatic component to the spell, you should have to run concentration.
That way if its mid combat, and you're casting at me, I can AT LEAST attempt to kick to interrupt you rather than my only option being a mounted trample or a very risky bash.
Quote from: Case on June 01, 2023, 02:28:20 PM
If they're in timing parity, kick and bash shouldn't interrupt or block casting, imo.
Something has to.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 01, 2023, 02:42:25 PM
Quote from: Case on June 01, 2023, 02:28:20 PM
If they're in timing parity, kick and bash shouldn't interrupt or block casting, imo.
Something has to.
Increase failure rates for being hit, no ability to cast if you're attacked by 3+ things at once?
I like my "die on casting" idea more.
Either leave kick and bash as interrupts or remove mage Subguilds and force them to be squishy full casters.
Quote from: Case on June 01, 2023, 02:45:15 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 01, 2023, 02:42:25 PM
Quote from: Case on June 01, 2023, 02:28:20 PM
If they're in timing parity, kick and bash shouldn't interrupt or block casting, imo.
Something has to.
Increase failure rates for being hit, no ability to cast if you're attacked by 3+ things at once?
3-5 humanoid combatants maybe? That way incidental things like 3 rats dont stop magick?
3 opponents above x size?
3- 5 karma roles only
Quote from: Case on June 01, 2023, 02:45:15 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 01, 2023, 02:42:25 PM
Quote from: Case on June 01, 2023, 02:28:20 PM
If they're in timing parity, kick and bash shouldn't interrupt or block casting, imo.
Something has to.
Increase failure rates for being hit, no ability to cast if you're attacked by 3+ things at once?
Currently, because we're in no-AoO land, odds are that you'll not be hit at all during the casting process. So.. No, not as-is.
just type flee self when they draw upon whateverthefuck and then watch the direction to know when it's safe to run back in and type charge/bash
Quote from: Lotion on June 04, 2023, 10:00:53 PM
just type flee self when they draw upon whateverthefuck and then watch the direction to know when it's safe to run back in and type charge/bash
While applauding the thought of tactical combat being worth doing as opposed to the idea that emoting should have drastic impacts on the other person's experience, this is also shortchanging how impactful these kinds of actions can actually be. If you delay so that you can flee for a spell-cast, you're not using those delays at your disposal to prevent it in the first place, or to keep them from simply walking away from you. This same interplay comes in with archers and movement, and pretty much any other pvp experience.
So I'm not sure if this was meant as a joke, or just someone who hasn't done a lot of pvp, but the 'hold all commands til I know if I have to flee' doesn't actually work that well in pvp on Armageddon, unless you're in a vast overmatchup in the first place. Generally speaking that will result in 1. The need to flee and 2. The freedom of your adversary to prevent you from fleeing via whatever means they have available.