Armageddon General Discussion Board

Hi there,

Currently, Staff complaints have notoriously lead to the "thin blue line", where it is rare that any punitive action or corrective action is taken with a Staffer that is complained about. Staff closes ranks and explains why certain actions were taken and so on. It discourages players from speaking their mind, particularly if they feel they are being singled out by one or another Staffer. Likewise, a Staff complaint is visible to the entire Staff team, even though only Producers can respond to and resolve them. This also discourages filing Staff complaints, as it can lead to passive aggressive (or just aggressive) responses from Staff being complained about.

I would suggest the following, in light of Shabago's post and promotion.

-Change the nomenclature of "complaint" to "Staff Related Complaint or Discussion". It isn't always a complaint, it's a wish to discuss something with the Producers regarding how they are being treated. The same is true with a Player Complaint — I would say people avoid filing these sometimes when the behavior they notice isn't something they would necessarily complain about, but still want to notify Staff about.

-Make Staff Complaints only visible to Producers. If they want to solicit feedback from a specific Staffer (even the one in question), they can do so outside of the request tool. This will discourage retaliation (even subconscious retaliation) and keep things much neater for players, and reassure them IMHO.

-Pledge to resolve Staff related discussions and complaints within 2 weeks of them being filed, with exceptions made for RL busyness. These should be a top priority request, as they are directly related to the optics of the game and the staff that runs it.

—

I've noticed a trend of posts like Shabago's, and then my interaction with other Staff being just as bad or worse than in previous years. It's kind of disingenuous and just makes me think "same old, same old". I've spoken with two players that have left in the last 2 RL months due to staff interactions in the game and outside of the game. That's really discouraging.

Something needs to give and change with Staff accountability, and j would posit if that doesn't change, it will really be the nail in the coffin for our shared hobby.   

+1

I do not think there is an easy answer to make the process feel more fair to the player.  It is very difficult to build and maintain trust that complaints are being handled in the most fair and thorough way possible.

I think one thing that can be done is to re-evaluate the staff complaint helpfile.  Currently 6 of the 7 staff complaint rules are basically framed as accusations against the player, with the 6th rule detailing out threats of banning against players who abuse to the staff complaint request, yikes.  I'm worried such a confrontational set of rules over the years has done more to discourage legitimate complaints than it has at calming down upset players to more rationally frame their complaints.

For example the second rule states:

"Be polite and mature. While you may feel that you have been wronged, communicate in a polite manner. Name-calling and demands are unnecessary. Bring facts and let the Producers determine what needs to be done."

A better way of framing this may be:

"We understand that emotions can run high. Please remember that we are all people and try to be polite and factual in your report."


It is also mentioned in the helpfile that a player can request clarification on the process.  It would be better if this was just part of the process.  That to close out and resolve any complaint players should be made aware of what went into that decision.  A lot can be done to mitigate hurt feelings if this process is explained to the player.  Many times the game can be harsh and actions taken can feel personal, but having the veil lifted enough to let the staff know they do understand and sympathize with player feelings can do a lot.  Even if an In Character action was harsh, the staff can help reassure the player that they are not out to get them.

For reference, here is the Staff Complaint Helpful:

Staff Complaint                                                       (Rules)

   Staff complaints are reserved for complaints against the staff of
ArmageddonMUD.  All requests filed in the request tool can be seen by
all staff members, but some requests limit resolution/modification to
certain ranks or higher.  In this case, staff complaints can only be
resolved or modified by a Producer.  There are three Producers for
ArmageddonMUD.  Staff complaint resolution is handled as a consensus
response.  Consensus means that two out of the three Producers must
agree on the course of action.

   Staff complaints are taken seriously by the Producers, and as
such, they may take a week or longer to resolve, depending on the
content and nature of the complaint.  However, staff complaints
should be taken seriously by players, as well.  Please review the
following rules for staff complaints.

Staff complaint rules:

   1.  Recusing.  If you have a complaint against a Producer, that
Producer will recuse themselves from resolving the complaint; you do
not need to request this.  If you have a complaint against more than
one Producer, understand that you are submitting this to a consensus
ruling that will involve at least one of the Producers about whom you
are complaining.  Fishing for the "right" Producer to answer a
complaint will not be looked on favorably; any requests of that
nature may be ignored.

   2.  Be polite and mature.  While you may feel that you have been
wronged, communicate in a polite manner.  Name-calling and demands
are unnecessary.  Bring facts and let the Producers determine what
needs to be done.

   3.  Be concise, and format your complaint.  If you submit a wall
of text or unsolicited logs, the Producers may request that you
reformat/resubmit your complaint, and they may not address the
complaint until that is rectified.

   4.  Be reasonable. A staff complaint is typically the final step

[THERE IS MORE, PRESS ENTER]

in communication with staff about a particular matter.  In this case,
you are taking a complaint to the leadership of the game, leadership
that is likely already familiar with the situation in question.  When
your complaint is resolved, it will be resolved in what the Producers
of the game determine to be a fair manner, taking into account the
rules of the game, the rules for staff, the situation in question,
and the actions and intentions of everyone involved.

   5.  Appealing.  If you are dissatisfied with the response to your
complaint, there is generally NOT an appeals process.  There are two
exceptions to this.  If you have new information to bring to light
about a complaint after it has been resolved, please e-mail the
Producers directly at producers@armageddon.org.  One of the Producers
will respond and let you know what to do at that time.  The other
exception is for clarification.  If you wish clarification on the response of a complaint, you may
file a Game-Related: Question
request to clarify.  This type of request can only be resolved by an
Administrator or higher, and in this case, any Administrator+ can
provide more details.  However, they will await Producer sign-off on
the response.

   6.  Filing a complaint because you do not like or agree with the
results of your previous complaint will result in a warning and
rejection/dismissal of the request on the first occurrence.  On the
second occurrence, you will face a dismissal and week ban on the
game/General Discussion Board.  On the third occurrence, you will
face dismissal and a month ban from the game and the GDB.  On the
fourth occurrence, the ban will become permanent.

   7.  The process for #6 above will also apply for complaining via
other request types or on the GDB because you do not like or agree
with the results of your previous complaint.

See also:
   Rules

Delay:

Quote from: Ender on November 08, 2021, 12:41:51 PM
the staff can help reassure the player that they are not out to get them.

Sometimes, Ender, they ARE out to get/fuck them and THAT is the biggest problem.

I cannot tell you how many former staff have told me how "Staff" feels about me.

My latest staff complaint was because my karma was docked when I wasn't even playing. Without having broken a rule. 20 years playing for me to have a 1 karma. If it's personal against ONE player the likelihood that it could be personal against more than one player are pretty good. You don't see players saying their feelings against a particular staff AREN'T personal. They absolutely are. The way that staff treats me, is definitely in the 'out to get me' category.

I don't think changing the nomenclature is going to do diddly, Veselka - while some staff complaints fall under "can we talk about this?" I would dare say MOST don't.  I'd change this suggestion to adding a "Can we talk about this?" category.

I'm going to comment more on this but I want to re-read it and I'm not in a rush to get out of here.  I'm late!

It doesn't help to file a complaint with staff.  I in the past have learned if you do the staff in complaint will answer and respond sort of cold and rudely. Then afterwards will load up npcs or active npc in a area to run you off and stop the rp. So best if you get a staff against you just play WoW or do something around the house for a month and let them all get off the pissy mood it is a free game anyway and maybe their real lives isnt going well.. Like to add that Shabg is the one reason I keep easing back in game. More then once they have listen to me and wrote back in a more calming tone and wording.

When I put in a staff complaint and staff was on my side,

they had told me I was right on the matter and that was all. I didn't get an apology and I just felt empty.

The comment that hurt me and embarrassed me is still on that clan forum to this day, so everyone can see it too.

I have felt unheard a lot of times in the past. But, in reports and requests and questions I mention to staff that I am sensitive. And I try to put that across and they've been very respectful about it. I think sometimes our tone can also be pretty abrupt and cold. But, when I have been genuine and tried to state that, staff seems to appreciate it. I am a very gentle boy, you see.

I too have experienced dismissive, nowhere requests even when I use a polite or civil method of getting something across. It's unfortunate that only recently have I been snippy with my textual tone to staff due to the more than of a handful of occurrences that were just plain rude responses. Sometimes I get responses from a staffer who didn't actually read what I was talking about (that's actually the most common response) the worst part is having a request closed by a staffer before you get to even discuss anything.

So pretty much just a +1 to those above me.

I am kind of curious on how this will go. Had my share of disagreements as well. Old and new. It is my hope that the recent threads regarding grievances and the like have been heard. Now we'll need to give it a bit of time to see if there is an actual effect.

I would feel more comfortable with returning to the game if I could select my staff if I happened to be in the sphere of someone I don't want to do business with. People do this in other games and I don't see why not here. I think being apologetic is great for both staff and players who have acted inappropriately or made mistakes - but that doesn't change how someone feels about another party automatically. There are staff who do not want to work with me and there are staff I would choose not to work with. Having this option as a matter of policy would be beneficial to everyone.

It would alleviate a lot of problems to have built-in flexibility like that for leaders or reporting players.

We'll start off the the OP.

QuoteCurrently, Staff complaints have notoriously lead to the "thin blue line", where it is rare that any punitive action or corrective action is taken with a Staffer that is complained about.

While this may or may not have been factual before my rejoining the team, this assessment is defunct at current. I know this, as two staff members have outright left the team after having action taken against them. Further, there have been the same "bans" on staff that players incur when they're out of line and carry the same warning from me. If some unwarranted nastiness takes place, I have no issue revoking a staff members ability to deal with that player(s), stating an apology is needed, having them leave the game for a day or two to cool off from their own frustrations - or all of the above. So, I'd ask - per my post - that the hand that was extended is taken and we move forward, in place of assuming the worst in one another and/or dragging up the past that can't be fixed.

QuoteStaff closes ranks and explains why certain actions were taken and so on.

I'd be happy to discuss if this happened to you, directly, in a request. Otherwise, hearsay, inability to see either side or what was actually done or said by 3rd party accounts and so on is once again, assuming the worst and or lacking the facts from either side. Which, if 3rd party, no one has a right to know or see. Yes, we're aiming for transparency, but not at the cost of individual player privacy. Ups and downs to each of this, with one of the biggest downs being exactly this sort of belief. Staff have no recourse to public what took place and why in almost each case and thus - whatever it put out by an angry party is default truth.

QuoteIt discourages players from speaking their mind, particularly if they feel they are being singled out by one or another Staffer.

Perhaps the pre-held belief that the above two things were true (when not) is discouraging. Again, assumptions. This sort of belief or posted statement by one player, claiming knowledge of all players, already handcuffs both sides of the divide. Seeing as the wording here is "Being singled out", the conclusion is already made before I've even touched it. Not very fair, while attempting to give anyone and everyone that fairness, back.

QuoteLikewise, a Staff complaint is visible to the entire Staff team, even though only Producers can respond to and resolve them. This also discourages filing Staff complaints, as it can lead to passive aggressive (or just aggressive) responses from Staff being complained about.

The help file needs updating - both because of Enders post below and because it's not 100% accurate any longer.

- Admins can resolve complaints over Storytellers.
- Producers resolve complaints over Admins, or when a complaint is elevated by an Admin on a storyteller.
- Producers may also step in when anyone on the team recuses themselves by bias or involvement.

As to the rest of this point; could it lead to some manner of hurt feelings on the team? I suppose, if it was a particularly nasty attack rather than anything constructive. (They do happen, emotions are had on both sides). The portion of passive aggressive or aggressive responses is false. The staff member being complained about is not permitted to address their own complaint. Further, these things are tracked in the request tool TO hold staff to account. They are very easy for producers to review and, if any sort of behaviour is observed that isn't appropriate from the team at large, step in to address it.

The premise that we're all going to hate on you because you (general you) put in your take on a situation is frankly sad to even hear. We don't. Simple statement, which is open to everyone to believe or not and if 'not', I'd encourage you to try and see what sort of result you get, in place of more assumptions. Lastly, on this point, it's an open request so a team consensus can be had. Certain storytellers may have seen something that a producer has not, and bring that to our attention. This way, we get the most informed, complete picture of what has occurred, before making any decision or taking action.

QuoteI would suggest the following, in light of Shabago's post and promotion.

-Change the nomenclature of "complaint" to "Staff Related Complaint or Discussion". It isn't always a complaint, it's a wish to discuss something with the Producers regarding how they are being treated. The same is true with a Player Complaint — I would say people avoid filing these sometimes when the behavior they notice isn't something they would necessarily complain about, but still want to notify Staff about.

I'm not a web coder, so I can't promise this will happen. Do I see the merit in it? Sure. I get it. I can also reassure the player base at large that the team simply doesn't read requests "that way" - it's a title. A means to filter where it goes in the request tool. I don't see a "Complaint" in the tool and default to "Oh, god, now who did what? - It's feedback. That's it. Player or staff "complaints" just don't carry that automatically bad vibe for us. So, please, if that is a reason you're avoiding submitting something - put it in.

Quote-Make Staff Complaints only visible to Producers. If they want to solicit feedback from a specific Staffer (even the one in question), they can do so outside of the request tool. This will discourage retaliation (even subconscious retaliation) and keep things much neater for players, and reassure them IMHO.

Addressing above, but to point form on this portion:
- Not codedly possible at present.
- Not conductive to getting all the facts and the big picture from everyone, as Producers aren't on or see it all.
- The person accused has a right to justify their actions, just as any player would when we open a request to them on something seen that is considered inappropriate.
- Any sort of retaliation taken is painfully obvious and easily tracked by the nature of the tool and will result in consequences to the staff member.

Quote-Pledge to resolve Staff related discussions and complaints within 2 weeks of them being filed, with exceptions made for RL busyness. These should be a top priority request, as they are directly related to the optics of the game and the staff that runs it.

Agreed on priority and optics. I'll do my best to meet that time line, or even sooner, as they come to "my desk".
—

QuoteI've noticed a trend of posts like Shabago's, and then my interaction with other Staff being just as bad or worse than in previous years. It's kind of disingenuous and just makes me think "same old, same old". I've spoken with two players that have left in the last 2 RL months due to staff interactions in the game and outside of the game. That's really discouraging.

Vaguebooking and impossible to address and thus, a bad faith argument that only serves to hurt the community at large. That was in my post, as well? I have said and will continue to say that if there is any issue, please report it and it will be given a proper review. This is from the individual - in this case, your own observations. "Other players" is 3rd party and further impossible to address. If they want their concerns heard, submit and it will get a proper and fair review. The wish for a better, positive community is still the goal and will continue to be the goal - but I can't do that by "I heard" or "I noticed" without any sort of details or facts to go on. This is akin to staff going. "I heard you broke a rule while I was off. I didn't bother to check the logs - you're now karma docked." - Not really fair?

QuoteSomething needs to give and change with Staff accountability, and j would posit if that doesn't change, it will really be the nail in the coffin for our shared hobby.

It has. That's why I posted. Defeatist attitude, pre-held belief of outcome based on years old conduct, blind faith in 3rd party hearsay, failure to even give the staff team a chance to address concerns and continued vague-booking on how bad things are or will be without even trying to work with me (and the team) on the directive given is what will lead to no change for the players that do so.

I can't fix something broken if I don't know it's broken. So, in closing, I again ask that the honest attempt is given to work with me/us, try to stop believing the worst, and help make the community better for both sides.

I can understand this feeling of some thin blue line, we're a team and we definitely don't air out our business or discussion in a public forum and often you only see the united front and final decisions. Despite the friendships and camaraderie we have over a shared passion, there's not a member on the team I wouldn't call bullshit on and they pay me the same respect. I've requested a ST take a lap when things got personal (when I was a ST), I've requested the same from an admin above me when a players actions particularly upset them, I've recused MYSELF from handling a player I felt I couldn't handle without bias and over my years on the team I've seen other staff do the same. We are quite open in how we talk to one another and police one another, this remains true when nobody is looking and it certainty remains true in regards to staff complaints/player complaints. But please, don't hang some grievance from a decade ago over the head of a team that wasn't here to address it, this team is doing amazing things with an energy that I hope is visible to the playerbase.

Quote from: Shabago on November 08, 2021, 09:56:32 PM

I can't fix something broken if I don't know it's broken. So, in closing, I again ask that the honest attempt is given to work with me/us, try to stop believing the worst, and help make the community better for both sides.

I'm heartened to hear that the nomenclature of the Staff Complaint/Feedback would be considered, along with the rules in the helpfile, to better encourage this current/next generation of players to be more forthcoming with Staff/Producers when they have a shitty experience. That's all I was really pushing for.

Yes -- It will take time to unlearn what has basically been years of expecting Staff to close ranks and jump down your throat if you bring an issue up or file a staff complaint. Like you said -- It's probably best not to dredge up the past, but sometimes, the past kinda clings to you.

I had a recent event this week (and actually over the last 2 months) that I've hesitated filing Staff Complaints over, because it presents a negative attitude (Here's a player who complains about Staff, sigh, let's pass on future roles for them), creates a feeling of us vs them, and overall generates a sort of negative black cloud over the role in general. Instead I've been grinning and bearing it and just trying to focus on the positive stuff. But that doesn't seem...I don't know. Correct? I feel that if a Staffer is being a rude dude, a player should feel confident to point it out to Producers. But even by nature of this response, I feel the tone is "You're presenting dishonest bad faith arguments, I don't really believe what you're saying, show me some evidence and I'll think about it", which is...

Kind of the way it's always been.

"I've noticed a trend of posts like Shabago's, and then my interaction with other Staff being just as bad or worse than in previous years. It's kind of disingenuous and just makes me think "same old, same old". I've spoken with two players that have left in the last 2 RL months due to staff interactions in the game and outside of the game. That's really discouraging.

"Vaguebooking and impossible to address and thus, a bad faith argument that only serves to hurt the community at large. "

Is it really impossible to address?  You can comment on it in a way that's more neutral while acknowledging an issue (Or better yet, a 'possible' issue). If I have a friend message me 'Yeah I'm done with Arm cause so and so staffer is being a dick to me' does that mean I have to just never mention it ever again and hope my pal takes time out of his day to go put in a request that only staff will see for a game he doesn't intend on playing again?

I'd also say it definitely doesn't 'only serve to hurt the community'. Worse case scenario is that those people are just salty about some situation in game and defaulted to staff as being the issue. But I doubt multiple people are coming together for a conspiracy theory of 'lets all message current players and tell them staff is bad to destroy the game!'. We also have people in this thread and others talking about past experience and current experience. How far back does an experience have to be that its a bad faith argument and 'is holding back future growth'? How much 'hearsay' do I need, also lets keep in mind we aren't 'allowed' to see other peoples requests and what not, to hear before it's more than just hearsay and people are actually upset about something and disillusioned by the system.

" "I heard you broke a rule while I was off. I didn't bother to check the logs - you're now karma docked." "
I wouldn't really say these are the same thing. I also feel if staff is constantly 'hearing' about rule breaking that's cause for concern, either someone is actually breaking the rules or someone is actively out to get someone. The latter parts of this quote also have nothing to do with anything. "I heard from 3 close friends that this staffer was impolite and it caused them to leave the game " =/= "We've removed your karma without discussing it with you". One of these is a punitive action taken by a position of authority and the other is a possible reasoning behind a choice to leave the game.

A lot of the response sounded like what Veselka mentioned but I'll add my own 2 cents: "Your arguments are wrong and you don't know anything, go ask the people who aren't playing the game to get in touch with staff (And only us) so we can verify ourselves that we did nothing wrong"

Quote from: Shabago on November 08, 2021, 09:56:32 PM

I'd be happy to discuss if this happened to you, directly, in a request. Otherwise, hearsay, inability to see either side or what was actually done or said by 3rd party accounts and so on is once again, assuming the worst and or lacking the facts from either side. Which, if 3rd party, no one has a right to know or see. Yes, we're aiming for transparency, but not at the cost of individual player privacy. Ups and downs to each of this, with one of the biggest downs being exactly this sort of belief. Staff have no recourse to public what took place and why in almost each case and thus - whatever it put out by an angry party is default true...

The premise that we're all going to hate on you because you (general you) put in your take on a situation is frankly sad to even hear. We don't. Simple statement, which is open to everyone to believe or not and if 'not', I'd encourage you to try and see what sort of result you get...

- The person accused has a right to justify their actions, just as any player would when we open a request to them on something seen that is considered inappropriate.
...

Here are a few things that stand out to me, imagine the above as a numbered list because I am on a cell phone and can't quote things individually with any ease.

1. It seems like from the way you are talking that a lot of problems between players and staff are being hidden disengenuously under the guide of player privacy and some searching of the boards has shown multiple times where players have asked that staff respect THEIR wish to give UP their privacy so that they can show evidence of wrongdoing rather than having it be dismissed out of hand as hearsay, and staff refusing to respect that while claiming it is for player benefit rather than staff benefit.

2. I realize it relies on the "hearsay" of believing other players but... Haven't like multiple people already in this thread talked about the types of response it engenders and the problems has had, the least of which being that it was just dismissal, if not also coldness and rudeness and sometimes including retaliation? (strongheart, wday, gentleboy, shaleah)

3. Alright, how often do players who put in staff complaints have a chance to back and forth or defend their position once it comes under debate? Does it just go typically blank on their end while staff all talks about it as a team behind their backs and promises to be fair about it... But it's not just hearsay from staff. Like, you want us to assume anything from other players is hearsay but anything from other staff is true. I just want to be sure that I have that right.

4. I mean... You didn't have a point four but I do: Your lack of transparency is hurting you. Stop hiding behind the pretense that it is to protect players when it very much appears to be doing the exact opposite. Not only harming them but the game as well. I am not saying to air everyone's laundry. I am saying that when someone wishes to waive their right to privacy to defend themselves or make a point about problematic behavior, refusing them that only makes you look worse and hurts them more, resolving nothing.

Quote from: dumbstruck on November 09, 2021, 07:18:49 AM
I am saying that when someone wishes to waive their right to privacy to defend themselves or make a point about problematic behavior, refusing them that only makes you look worse and hurts them more, resolving nothing.

It is so very rarely just about them.  One side of the 'argument' might want to waive their privacy but that doesn't mean everyone involved does.  Airing the whole thing may also give out IC events we don't want to give away and ruin plots, etc.  But when would a person need to publicly defend themselves in the first place from a private request sent in?  Those are not made public so there's no reason to publicly debate it.  That's what this conversation is about, unless I'm mistaken - submitting complaints about staff.

Really, this is no different than a company HR department who takes in complaints.  ALL requests remain private for both the person filing the complaint AND the person being complained about.  Sometimes accusations can be pretty serious and until those are proven either way, it can damage someone's reputation.  There is no reason to change that.

A 'blotter' may help.

Staff complaints received: 0
Staff complaints resolved: 0
Satisfied with resolution: 0
Unsatisfied with resolution: 0

Player complaints received: 0
Player complaints resolved: 0
Satisfied with resolution: 0
Unsatisfied with resolution: 0

Staff kudos: 0
Player kudos: 0

High trend issues this week: Rude, favoritism, etc.

Steps taken to address these issues were... etc.


This would at least show trends to the greater community at large. Seeing zero staff complaints over a long period but hearing how someone is upset at staff takes the air out of that argument. Alternatively, seeing thirty staff complaints and no resolutions would indicate a larger problem. Seeing a churn of a few complaints and resolutions points toward an active approach to handling concerns.

It would help but assumes people trust the process and trust that there's a reason to use it.

We've got people in this thread discussing how their complaints did little to help.

In my opinion,

Having only the producers see the complaints would prevent the other staff from seeing what their coworkers are doing, and I think that would be a terrible idea and put more strain on the relationships between producers and the rest of the staff.
-> Because ALL active staff members can see ALL complaints ever raised in the request tool.
There have been over 100 players of this game who became staff members of this game.  The request tool is used to track these incidents, and keep a historical record for any current staff member to look up.

::like an uber rating::



I could spend some time to rewrite/polish the Staff Complaint helpfile, and see if Shabago/Any Producer would be willing to update it.

Quote from: Jihelu on November 09, 2021, 09:16:03 AM
It would help but assumes people trust the process and trust that there's a reason to use it.

We've got people in this thread discussing how their complaints did little to help.

Then either a) they have to trust the recent position changes and Shabago's acknowledgement post something is being done now that wasn't previously or b) find a way to stop harboring old issues and trust the new processes, or if still affected c) send in a complaint saying they don't feel their situation is resolved.

It sounds like people are getting little feedback on exactly how/what is being done to address their complaints and leave the process unsatisfied at the response? Is that accurate?

Something like that. From my perspective this entire posts reception by staff was a large response of 'no, no, no, bad faith, no' which seemed counter to shabagos entire post.

Right now we have a team who genuinely cares for this community, advocates for players and wants to try and make right how we all communicate and play together. Something to keep in mind is that caring folks are often quite sensitive themselves, and when you are putting in 30+ hours a week (on top of day jobs) to support the game for the benefit of the players then having to read how little faith the player base has, how we are disingenuous, how we are bad people out to get them or simply how we're just not doing enough.. well, honestly, it's utterly and completely exhausting and it's emotionally draining and it makes it really really hard to keep your chin up and keep going. It also makes it harder to be patient, and thoughtful and considerate when you're constantly being bombarded with negativity. Please also remember, there are two sides to every story.

As for Shabago's response, it isn't counter to his original post. He took the time to reply, and openly and honestly so - that is transparency. All we can do is try and tell you guys the truth. We don't close ranks. Complaints are taken very seriously. Staff who behave inappropriately get course corrected and when a complaint highlights an issue with our stance or procedure we often spend hours if not days debating and figuring out how we can improve. Are we perfect all the time? No. But we are always striving to do better and do the right thing for the game and community. We also hold each other accountable and check each other all the time.

So, I would urge you to give us a chance, play the game, if you have a complaint, try trusting that Shabago means what he says and submit it. Until you do that, you won't actually know whether the process is worth it. And maybe we can try taking a breather from GDB threads that seem to focus on tearing into the staff, because.. well.. it's actually really hurtful and discouraging and the more energy we spend trying to convince you that we do care the less time we have to animate the world, build awesome things, plan out new plots, read your reports and support your stories.

This thread has just about taken all my spoons.

I'll just agree with Usiku on this. They put my thoughts on the matter very well.

Quote from: Jihelu on November 09, 2021, 09:16:03 AM
We've got people in this thread discussing how their complaints did little to help.

I am still thinking about my response here. I did read the above and it engendered a question in return.  What are you, as a player, expecting the outcome to be from a Staff (or Player, for that matter) complaint?

I am not sure if my expectations of the process are the same as yours or not.

Quote from: Brokkr on November 09, 2021, 02:52:00 PM

Quote from: Jihelu on November 09, 2021, 09:16:03 AM
We've got people in this thread discussing how their complaints did little to help.

I am still thinking about my response here. I did read the above and it engendered a question in return.  What are you, as a player, expecting the outcome to be from a Staff (or Player, for that matter) complaint?

I am not sure if my expectations of the process are the same as yours or not.

As a player, I would expect more than "Your Staff Complaint Request has been resolved". I would expect less than a paragraph detailing all the people you talked to, the runlogs you looked at, and the attitude of the staff/player involved.

• "We have looked into this situation, and you missed <x> part where <y> happened."
• "We looked at the runlogs, and have spoken to those involved."
• "<staffer> did not understand the scene the same way you did, and as a result, may have come off harsher than intended."
• "While we do not condone the actions of <person>, here is <some edited leadup to the event>. We hope this allows some closure to the situation.

Quote from: Brokkr on November 09, 2021, 02:52:00 PM

Quote from: Jihelu on November 09, 2021, 09:16:03 AM
We've got people in this thread discussing how their complaints did little to help.

I am still thinking about my response here. I did read the above and it engendered a question in return.  What are you, as a player, expecting the outcome to be from a Staff (or Player, for that matter) complaint?

I am not sure if my expectations of the process are the same as yours or not.

More vocal, active approaches to reconciling with people who don't play the game anymore or people who have expressed discontent.

We've got several people non anonymously saying they've had issues. That's one ordeal. Ordeal 1.

We've got people who have left the game in the past. Some have left due to staff. People leaving is ordeal 2, leaving due to staff is like ordeal 2.5

Shabago's reply, despite agreeing with trivial parts of OP's post, is still highly dismissive and I find slightly insulting to the author. The author's issues are never taken seriously or given contemplation beyond a dismisal of them. Perhaps its tone, perhaps it's my perspective. I feel there are several 'no' answers that could have been highly reworded. Ordeal 3.

1: Don't just sit around while people actively go 'damn, I sure did not like when staff were actively dismissive of my complaints'. Reach out to them privately. Or you can even do a whole post on the same thread 'Hey, we are hearing what you are saying. Would you be willing to open a dialogue via request tool or discord so we can better discuss this?'.

2: Armageddon needs a reaching out method to begin with, no big issues here.
2.5: Same thing as #1. People go 'I have friends who don't play the game due to staff'. Instead of "Hearsay, third party, bad faith argument" maybe try messaging the poster and trying to get in contact with these people? Public post "Hey, we'd like to discuss with these individuals if they are open to this. Could you request tool us a handle if that individual is comfortable talking to us?".

3: I dunno at this point.

My entire post had little to do with your actual question to me, so I'll try to address it directly.
"What are you, as a player, expecting the outcome to be from a Staff (or Player, for that matter) complaint?"

Both individuals having a satisfying conclusion. That's what I think the outcome should be.

I won't say which staffer this is from because anonymity is important. But here's the outcome of the only staff complaint I ever wrote. I'll also not say which staffer it's over.
"We've read your request and your point of view.  This request is now resolved."

.....That's it?
To be fair I was a little salty in my complaint, I doubt people write complaints when they are in good moods though it would be good practice to do so, but I can think of a lot of different ways to help provide closure. Ways to keep anonymity, hide the super secret staffer methods, and still do more than a line of text followed by the 'door closed'.


Riev's comment, which is on the first page towards the bottom, is also pretty good if not a bit...extra. That's a lot of stuff but would be helpful.
You can even tell the person making the complaint whether you sympathize with them, agree with them, etc. (I would lean against...negative opinions in this area. 'Ur fuckin wrong kiddo request closed' probably isn't fun.) Knowing the actual outcome of a complaint can lead to satisfaction, even if the desired outcome isn't known. A dialogue can be had over the outcome if it led to something the complainee didn't desire. 'We are updating to let you know that we took your complaint to heart and looked into it more, but have decided not to go forward with any disciplinary measures because of X Y Z, we hope you can understand this. Here's some more information or why this may have happened'.

Quote from: Jihelu on November 09, 2021, 03:50:34 PM

"What are you, as a player, expecting the outcome to be from a Staff (or Player, for that matter) complaint?"

That is going to vary from player to player. Just ask.  It's really not that complicated. You cannot make a rule to encompass everyone these days, too many people aren't societal drones.


And by the way?

Quote from: Usiku on November 09, 2021, 10:41:19 AM
All we can do is try and tell you guys the truth.

Have you ever heard of the story of the boy who cried wolf?

Armageddon Staffers are the boy - players are the villagers - When the boy FINALLY told the truth? The villagers didn't believe them.

I'm sorry new staff have inherited the sins of their fore...staffers. This is a good exercise in the "if the shoe fits" mindset. If you haven't and you didn't then you shouldn't get defensive.

We've *all* put thousands of hours into this game, not just staff. 

Newsflash - it's a game - it's supposed to be FUN - when it stops being fun we need an Arm-vacation.

I'm trying to be conservative with my opinions, here.

The staff here is human. They will make mistakes. That isn't to say that they can't be wrong, or have bad days. I remember once during a discussion on staff behavior, a staff member asking if people wanted them to rub their heads in ashes for forgiveness of past transgressions. While those particular words were not tactful, it does make a point. An apology was asked for, and an apology has been extended by the staff team with a pledge to work together to do better.

The players here are human. They will make mistakes. That isn't to say that they can't be wrong, or have bad days. Apologies DON'T have to be accepted. That is alright. It is okay to still feel anger. I still feel irritation when I think of some past issues. The apology given makes me feel better, but the past is still there. I guess I can forgive in time, but I won't forget it. That's good. It keeps the same mistakes from happening again. NOT forgetting what hurt us is how we learn. Adapting to it in a constructive way is how we survive. Distrusting ALL staff because SOME staff caused issues, while understandable, makes it harder to have more positive interactions with those that have not caused issues.

The rules should be posted in such a manner such as they cannot be missed, and there should be a standard way of editing posts for certain offenses on the boards, until trust has been won back. In the case of the post which caused a bit of recent furor, it falls under Rule 10 which can be found on the website. This would have been more apparent if the rules were redundantly posted on the boards, AND the rule was reiterated during moderation. Having solid rules down, and following them equally for everyone will help alleviate doubt. Discuss rule changes and post them in an easy to find way.

As for making past issues more visible, this was attempted once, to my knowledge with a board post on these forums by a former Storyteller. I had to submit a request to ask that this post be edited because my character that had been involved in the events was still alive, as were some others. The events depicted were being detailed in an unfavorable light and had nothing to do with events as I had witnessed or experienced them, and the people around me were expressing confusion, bewilderment, and disappointment. The edit was made, but I can imagine that others might have felt similar annoyance over this post, and certainly had not given consent to being put on blast for things they couldn't properly defend against without the whole thing being moderated away. This is why posting these things to begin with is a bad idea, and should not be repeated. One of the best ways to go about it would be for everyone involved to take a time out, go to an OOC room in game, and hash things out like adults in a moderated setting.

There is a statement here being made by Brokkr that is an entirely good question. "What are players expecting from the outcomes to be from Staff or Player complaints?"

I'll give one answer:
When I was having my own troubles, I always asked if someone could give the other player a tap to let them know that they should back off a little in intensity. The game has no way of sending someone an OOC WHISPER, so whatever you say to someone in an OOC sense is blasted to the whole room. This can lead to censure, or to being told that a person is attempting to circumvent the flow of a scene. Avoiding a troublesome person is left to the person being made uncomfortable, rather than there being a means to tell the other person to give them room to breathe. The aggressor might even welcome an opportunity to have this information (as has been frequently said on the forums).

We rely on the staff to pass this information, not to judge on if this information SHOULD be passed. Since there is no means to otherwise communicate this in a fair way currently, the staff should respect player agency and just pass the message. If the behavior continues or intensifies, that establishes a pattern of misconduct, because they were given a clear indication that they needed to back down and from THERE the staff member should determine the validity of any further complaints.

I believe that if a player has an issue with a staff member, those complaints should not be seen at a Storyteller level. If the rest of the player base is not on a need to know basis, then neither should be all of the Storytellers. The Admins should be free to consider all complaints, but be recused if the complaint is directed at them. The same for Producers. The Storytellers may have opinions to give about certain situations, but they should only be considered if they are involved, same as any player, since they would not have a comprehensive understanding of every situation. Admin and Producers SHOULD have a better grip on the overall picture.

Shabago already addressed the issue I wanted to mention, with timely resolution of complaints. The one that I sent off took FAR too long to resolve in the past, and didn't even need to get to that level. Hence, my other commentary.

Quote from: Brokkr on November 09, 2021, 02:52:00 PM

Quote from: Jihelu on November 09, 2021, 09:16:03 AM
We've got people in this thread discussing how their complaints did little to help.

I am still thinking about my response here. I did read the above and it engendered a question in return.  What are you, as a player, expecting the outcome to be from a Staff (or Player, for that matter) complaint?

I am not sure if my expectations of the process are the same as yours or not.

Help. I expect help. If I've gotten to the level where I feel the need to write a complaint, it's out of hand, and I can no longer figure out what to do without intervention. It like someone screaming that there is a shark in the water, and the captain of a passing sea vessel throwing a plank. Yeah, the person is out of the water for the moment, but there is still a SHARK! If the person even gets a plank at all, instead of a, "There are supposed to be sharks in that water." and a view of the back of the boat. And hey look! Now I have a PLANK-EATING SHARK.

Help me find a way to constructively deal with the shark, because I clearly am having a problem with it.


Being completely transparent here, I've been on both sides of this fence (a while as a Builder, and for a very, very short while on the Storyteller side). I'm genuinely not here to cheer for, or bash the game. I honestly love it, and do like the people here - staff included. I just got really disillusioned and sad doing it. I don't see myself as player or staff here anymore, but I didn't feel as if I should engage further without making that little bit known (And it honestly freaks me out to mention it, because I don't want people to be mad about it or consider it favoritism - I really applied myself).  I wanted to add bittersweet moments of joy to a world filled with woe, and maybe help be part of this new iteration of Storytellers that are working so hard to overcome the mistakes of the past. This player base doesn't deserve a lot of the nonsense tossed at them, because you are sweet people, and it was fun animating for you and trying to help some of you achieve your goals (while simultaneously getting you to teach me how to achieve mine). Be gentle with one another as players and staff - and paint the walls with each others insides in game. <3

Hello.

I don't play Armageddon any longer and have no plans for returning, but I do occasionally glance over this forum and sometimes feel an urge to chime in, which in a moment of weakness I am yielding to for this thread.

My sympathies do go out to the staffers who honestly want to improve player-staff relations. While I have no doubt that you as individuals are all honestly hoping to complete a heel-face turn, the truth of the matter is that as a member of staff, you're not an individual on this topic: you're a representative of an organization with four decades of history. That history is so checkered, it should be waving at Le Mans. MUDs overall have a reputation of being staffed by hostile entities, and Armageddon especially sits somewhere near the top of the list of offenders in this regard.

Trust is much easier to destroy than it is to build, and many of your predecessors (and, in fact, current colleagues!) contributed very heavily to that destruction. The tone of the conversation here, at least to my reading, is that players should take this heel-face turn in good faith and trust that it will occur. In my estimation, it would be unreasonable to expect them to trust you at this point, for a number of reasons.

Firstly, on the topic of transparency: privacy is important in regards to IC events, but staff complaints aren't IC. As relayed elsewhere in this thread, too many staff complaints get dismissed out of hand, or handled behind the scenes with no visible evidence of effect or change. The staffer behind the complaint shows no evidence of slowing down or changing their behavior. There is no debrief to the community about what steps were taken or why. That's not particularly healthy and speaks of a culture more concerned about setting up a comfy environment for its staff than one that has trust with its playerbase.

Secondly, and this is the big one: there is no way that I can personally take a promise of better behavior from the staff at face value when certain members are still prominent on the team. As of **right now**, there are staffers on your team who have demonstrated some of the most vitriolic, aggressive, self-serving and rude behavior towards players on a consistent, regular basis. While I have had very pleasant interactions with the majority of staff, the fact that these elements still exist in your crew immediately defangs any argument that you're trying to be better. You can't make a stand against drink driving and resign Henry Ruggs. As long as those staffers are still present and accounted for on the roster, any claim to improving relations is sheer lip service.

My intent of posting this wasn't to do so in bad faith or stir up negative feelings. Though that seems to have happened and I apologize for that.

I'm taking a brief break from the game. This is instead of filing a Staff complaint. I don't feel it's worth the emotional investment to write up and document why I am feeling burned out or having friction with Staff. I feel it's best to just take a step back from the hobby, and readjust my expectations.

I'm playing a leadership role where my requests take an average of 15-20 days to resolve. I am left wondering if it is worth investing my RL time to plots IG if I have no indication from Staff if they will be supported or not.

I've had more negative wish sends than positive ones, where I am assumed to be acting in bad faith rather than given the benefit of the doubt (or separating IC actions with OOC motivations). I haven't felt set up for success as a player, but rather left hanging in the wind. I can make my own fun, especially on leadership roles, but not when that fun is hamstrung by requiring Staff agency and involvement through a request tool outside of the game.

Why not file a Staff complaint?

Because I don't expect that to change. The Staffing team is what it is. They have their assignments. I am who I am, and ultimately I am probably expecting too much of the game and of the Staff running it. I'm older now than when I started playing the game, and my time feels more at a premium. While I excel at Leadership roles, it's perhaps time to realize I can't invest that much of myself into a Fantasy RPI MuD any longer.

I haven't filed a staff complaint because as Brokkr puts it — what result would I expect? I'm not sure. Acknowledgement that my area of the world could use more Staffing. Acknowledging that request times are really long right now and to maybe hold off on large overarching plots.

I am trigger shy approaching Staff because I have been burned more than once in the past. I took a 2 year break from the game and came back using a VPN and new account because real or not — I was worried about Staff having preconceived notions about me and my PCs that I wanted to avoid. I appreciate the sentiment of Shabago's messaging and the ideals they present. I have gotten along quite well with Shabago in past present and hopefully future. I hope to come back with a cool head and fresh attitude. I've also been on new medication that is probably affecting my mood, which also I need time to adjust to. Sensibly — breaks are good. Kvetching like this — probably not as productive as I thought it would be.

Sorry.

Quote from: Veselka on November 09, 2021, 06:06:01 PM
...
I hope to come back with a cool head and fresh attitude. I've also been on new medication that is probably affecting my mood, which also I need time to adjust to. Sensibly — breaks are good. Kvetching like this — probably not as productive as I thought it would be.

Sorry.

I hope you feel better soon.  I'd suggest you make a clean break;  no GDB Or Discord.  I take a lot of breaks, mainly for busy life reasons or infrequently for game burnout.  When I come back after a month or a year, the game seems all bright and shiny.   ;)

This thread continues to get interesting.

For Veselka first:

I played a couple of leaders and was so disgusted with staff in the terminal points I quit playing for up to a year and other times for months.
Sometimes you need a break. After the last break I took, when I came back, I found a way to love the game without the downswings.

I hope the break is just what you need and you come back. You bring a lot to the experience and the enjoyment of other players.

No apology needed.

************************

I'm not entirely sure how to approach the rest of this thread. I deleted a reply I had typed up earlier in the day.

I think there's some traction to gain in the area of 'make the staff complaints and resolutions more public'. If players feel like staff complaints do nothing, that's also probably a problem worth reviewing, or staff at least being more public about.

And.

This community wants to isolate and pretend we're just casually playing a game together, but you want to be treated like valuable community members when something goes wrong or the political beliefs you hold in real life are threatened by an IC event or interaction. Players as individuals want to be the arbitrators of what staff are good, and what staff are bad, and this is largely based on outcomes they've experienced that were either in their favor or against it--or personal preference.

I'm not a fan of people who don't play the game anymore taking the time to write up posts to shit on something they no longer contribute to here. I don't like the kill shots for the rest of the community here because you're done and want to vent your rage. There's another place for that.

I do like seeing an open discussion and wanting to address issues that are still driving players away and preventing new ones from coming in. The staff at present are over 9000 times more transparent and open with the players. Some of this was forced by players, I mean anyone pretending they never googled the word 'armageddon' and actually found that other place (with a higher search result than the actual gdb) is probably lying.

There are two separate problems here I think.

1.) There's current players feeling snuffed somehow, and there should be some outlets to discuss that. Expecting current staff to atone for decades of issues is pretty unreasonable to me, and i've been a critic of their stances many times. But what prompted this, Shabago's post (I think?), is an effort to remedy issues with current players and future ones.

2.) Former players on strike or never returning. Much love to many of you, as you literally trained and made my armageddon experience over the years. And also, I don't know what to do about this. Ya'll are hilarious, intelligent, crazy as or crazier than me, and the epic roasts of staff and policy have brought me great joy from time to time. I don't know how to remove a history of frustration and anger though.

Reading this, other comments, and threads in the past just made me think: "Who the fuck would ever volunteer to staff?" Imagine being a human dealing with these waves of issues that really have no boundaries in some areas. Every person that steps away from the game now is a massive loss, and I hope my reply here hasn't made my fellow players think i'm not hearing them or don't understand some of the very specific grievances.

With the advent of discord, I don't feel like I couldn't get through to someone if some absolutely crazy shit was going down and needed to be addressed. Maybe that is happening to players? I don't know. But I am willing at this stage in life to distinguish between "I'm being ignored" and "I didn't like the result."

The results are also important--and if there's some massive favoritism or discrimination going on, and players feel that way, it needs to be discussed.

Quote from: Ender on November 08, 2021, 12:41:51 PM
I do not think there is an easy answer to make the process feel more fair to the player.  It is very difficult to build and maintain trust that complaints are being handled in the most fair and thorough way possible.

I think one thing that can be done is to re-evaluate the staff complaint helpfile.  Currently 6 of the 7 staff complaint rules are basically framed as accusations against the player, with the 6th rule detailing out threats of banning against players who abuse to the staff complaint request, yikes.  I'm worried such a confrontational set of rules over the years has done more to discourage legitimate complaints than it has at calming down upset players to more rationally frame their complaints.

For example the second rule states:

"Be polite and mature. While you may feel that you have been wronged, communicate in a polite manner. Name-calling and demands are unnecessary. Bring facts and let the Producers determine what needs to be done."

A better way of framing this may be:

"We understand that emotions can run high. Please remember that we are all people and try to be polite and factual in your report."


It is also mentioned in the helpfile that a player can request clarification on the process.  It would be better if this was just part of the process.  That to close out and resolve any complaint players should be made aware of what went into that decision.  A lot can be done to mitigate hurt feelings if this process is explained to the player.  Many times the game can be harsh and actions taken can feel personal, but having the veil lifted enough to let the staff know they do understand and sympathize with player feelings can do a lot.  Even if an In Character action was harsh, the staff can help reassure the player that they are not out to get them.

Noting this is being actively reviewed and addressed. Specific shout out to Usiku and Mansa with my appreciation, and to Ender for bringing it up and pointing it out.

Quote from: ShaLeah on November 08, 2021, 03:57:47 PM

Quote from: Ender on November 08, 2021, 12:41:51 PM
the staff can help reassure the player that they are not out to get them.

Sometimes, Ender, they ARE out to get/fuck them and THAT is the biggest problem.

I cannot tell you how many former staff have told me how "Staff" feels about me.

My latest staff complaint was because my karma was docked when I wasn't even playing. Without having broken a rule. 20 years playing for me to have a 1 karma. If it's personal against ONE player the likelihood that it could be personal against more than one player are pretty good. You don't see players saying their feelings against a particular staff AREN'T personal. They absolutely are. The way that staff treats me, is definitely in the 'out to get me' category.

I don't think changing the nomenclature is going to do diddly, Veselka - while some staff complaints fall under "can we talk about this?" I would dare say MOST don't.  I'd change this suggestion to adding a "Can we talk about this?" category.

I'm going to comment more on this but I want to re-read it and I'm not in a rush to get out of here.  I'm late!

On a further review of this particular issue, the reason for the karma dock had to do with staff trust as mentioned in the karma help file. It was felt your actions in discord/GDB were disruptive and actively producing player complaints and requests for moderation. That lead to a reduction in said staff trust and thus the karma dock. The dock was not immediately time with the discord ban. That aside, this was not verbalised to you in a way that was clear AND as this was not a specifically stated rule (defined), I've spoken with the team and thus taking the action at the time, and its agreed to reinstated the karma point and offer an apology to you in the failure of communication.

Quote from: Wday on November 08, 2021, 05:21:20 PM
It doesn't help to file a complaint with staff.  I in the past have learned if you do the staff in complaint will answer and respond sort of cold and rudely. Then afterwards will load up npcs or active npc in a area to run you off and stop the rp. So best if you get a staff against you just play WoW or do something around the house for a month and let them all get off the pissy mood it is a free game anyway and maybe their real lives isnt going well.. Like to add that Shabg is the one reason I keep easing back in game. More then once they have listen to me and wrote back in a more calming tone and wording.

I'm happy to know that I've been helpful to you in the past, Wday. In the spirit of that, can I ask for you to point me to the staff complaint that you've submitted? I'm having trouble locating it. Was it filed as a question request? I would like to review it. As for the claim of loaded NPCs or such, I'd further ask that if you can supply some log in that request; attn Shabago, I'll look into that as well.

Quote from: Gentleboy on November 08, 2021, 06:03:24 PM
When I put in a staff complaint and staff was on my side,

they had told me I was right on the matter and that was all. I didn't get an apology and I just felt empty.

The comment that hurt me and embarrassed me is still on that clan forum to this day, so everyone can see it too.

I have felt unheard a lot of times in the past. But, in reports and requests and questions I mention to staff that I am sensitive. And I try to put that across and they've been very respectful about it. I think sometimes our tone can also be pretty abrupt and cold. But, when I have been genuine and tried to state that, staff seems to appreciate it. I am a very gentle boy, you see.

I'm sorry you came away from the interaction with this feeling, though I do feel the need to mention that you were, in fact, offered an apology in the request. Can I request that you return to the request in question to verify that? Or, if you like, I can copy/paste it to you in an open one you have. I mention this, specifically, as if this is the source of your feelings based on a miscommunication or misread, that would be great to clear up for you and I both.

Quote from: Strongheart on November 08, 2021, 07:40:02 PM
I too have experienced dismissive, nowhere requests even when I use a polite or civil method of getting something across. It's unfortunate that only recently have I been snippy with my textual tone to staff due to the more than of a handful of occurrences that were just plain rude responses. Sometimes I get responses from a staffer who didn't actually read what I was talking about (that's actually the most common response) the worst part is having a request closed by a staffer before you get to even discuss anything.

So pretty much just a +1 to those above me.

Same as WDay, can I request that you submit a request and link or point me to these requests you're unsatisfied with? I'm not finding any under the 'Staff complaint' file. I'd prefer to address them and/or be informed on them prior to making any further comment.

Just want it to be noted this was a lot of what I 'wanted' as far as my posts go.

Quote from: Brokkr on November 09, 2021, 02:52:00 PM

Quote from: Jihelu on November 09, 2021, 09:16:03 AM
We've got people in this thread discussing how their complaints did little to help.

I am still thinking about my response here. I did read the above and it engendered a question in return.  What are you, as a player, expecting the outcome to be from a Staff (or Player, for that matter) complaint?

I am not sure if my expectations of the process are the same as yours or not.

I think this is a great question.

Before I give my opinion, I hope I'm a member of the silent majority that generally thinks the staff is currently doing a great job and is thankful for all their efforts to keep the game fun and running smoothly. I'm also appreciative of the playerbase as a whole who the game needs to flesh out the stories that make Armageddon such an incredible game. As we all know, everyone here on the GDB is part of our gaming community. Sometimes I believe there is a misconcieved notion that the game has a Staff vs Player mentality. However, we need to look at the game more as a collective creation, even when the staff are leading us toward an ominous in-game fate.

To answer Brokkr's question and express how I'd like to see Staff complaints handled, I'm going to create a fictious staff complaint based on the recent Full Mage thread which was moderated then changed.

Everyone on the GDB saw this:

Quote from: Player on November 07, 2021, 09:20:15 AM
If being a mage wasn't so extremely isolating and boring I would be happy to have a much stricter limit in the game towards being able to be one.

as the game is designed now it feels like the particular cultural stigmas which make being a mage or a gemmed a completely dull hatefest [I understand this is your opinion, but this was a far step past what is acceptable.  Make this parallel again and see what happens to your account.  -Staff.] are how the game discourages choosing to be a mage.

I read the original post before it was moderated. I don't recall exactly what was said. However, when I read it, I don't recall finding it personally offensive or inappropriate. I do recall thinking it might anger some people on the GDB. It turns out that some people found it inappropriate and the post was moderated.

Let's pretend the player submits a staff complaint as follows:

"Dear Staff,

My recent post in the Full Mage thread (link included) was moderated by a staff member and my karma was docked as a punishment. However, I was unaware my opinion was an inappropriate topic. As per the GDB helpfile: "The staff encourages players to post anything game-related, including critiques or feedback on recent changes, advice on how to write a successful application, suggestions for mud policy, requests for assistance, discussion of plotlines, documentation, processes, or anything else pertinent to the game without fear of repercussions." This topic is not mentioned in the GDB helpfile, the Inappropriate Vernacular helpfile, or the Staff Announcements - Forum Rules. Additionally, I feel the tone of this staff member was somewhat abrasive and feel publicly shamed. I'd like to request an appeal to restore my karma, the tone of the moderation made more neutral, and the addition of what seems to be a new rule (or a missing old rule) to all of the above mentioned helpfiles and forum rules.

Thank you for your time"

From this complaint, I hope each producer takes the time to read the original post and the moderated post. I'd like them to review the helpfiles and forum rules. After doing so, they should see that topic isn't mentioned anywhere and the player has accidentally wondered into an inappropriate area. If the producers feel the moderating tone could be improved, they would change it. If this topic should become a new rule, then the producers should open a new IDB topic to gather the input and feedback from the rest of the staff. After discussion and debate in the IDB, a new rule is written and added to the following: GDB helpfile, Inappropriate Vernacular helpfile, and Staff Announcements - Forum Rules. There is a new Staff Announcement by a producer to inform the playerbase of the rule addition.

A producer or delegated administrator responds to the player complaint as follows:

"Dear Player,

After reviewing your complaint, there was no specific rule prohibiting this topic of discussion. Therefore, we are reimbursing your karma. However, we adding a new rule to the GDB helpfile, Inappropriate Vernacular helpfile , and Staff Announcements - Forum Rules to prohbit this topic in the future. Please refrain from this topic moving forward and sorry for the confusion. (Assuming the tone could be better) We agree the tone of the moderation was inappropriate and have adjusted the wording.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention and we look forward to seeing you in game."

The rest of us, as players, see the original post, the original moderation, the changed moderation, and the consequent rule change from the producer's Staff Announcement.

The staff member is informed of the complaint and ruling by the producers something like this:

"Dear Staff,

After reviewing a recent player complaint regarding the moderation of this post (include link), we found that this topic is not expressively prohibited in any of our public rules or helpfiles. We agree that it should be included and have added a new topic of discussion on the IDB. Please add your thoughts to the discussion. Since no current rule was broken, we've reimbursed the player's karma. Additionally, we adjusted the tone of the moderation to make it more neutral. Feel free to chat with us in game if you gave any additional questions.

Thank you for your continued hard work and dedication to the game!"

I was planning on playing my character tonight. However, it took me about 2 hours to find all the rules, double check them, and write this answer to Brokkr's question. I assume it would easily take that much if not more time to respond to a real staff complaint. Thus, each time we, as players, submit such a complaint we a taking time away from new code, fun interaction, completing custom crafts, or that special animation. I hope we'll all think about the time drain each of these complaints requires and consider that carefully before filing them. When we file a complaint, we should state the problem, provide any available evidence of an error, and state what action you want to resolve the complaint.

Thanks for reading.

I think a big issue is that people don't know when to let go.

We are all stubborn creative people and it does not feel good to be wrong.

My favorite saying these days is "I'll gladly eat my own boot." Because I love being proven wrong and learning.

But if someone feels they are absolutely correct and the opposite feels that they themselves are absolutely correct. There will always be a hurt party. Especially when one person is staff and has the final say and therefore "wins".

One thing I wish is that staff wouldn't close tickets when THEY feel the issue is resolved. Just a "here is what the outcome is on our side. Any thoughts? Confused? Anything you want to add". Because not feeling heard really I think is a big source of contempt.

You know, Since coming back...(which was partly from finding out that a certain producer and storyteller were gone)...Over all, even when filing complaints, I have found staff to be far more reasonable then during the (see above) days.

Main reason for posting though...the suggestion of having an "actions taken" Section in the reply or what have you, should Indeed be in place. (or just use Williamson's template)

Also, Karma docks should always be well explained and have an automatic appeal process. That or make it producer privilege only.

(edit)
Staff training for dealing with complaints.

It is very annoying to have a staffer tell you, in text that you have some kind of tone. Unless the player is actually swearing or being abusive etc. They have no "tone", it is text.
Blunt and to the point is not a "tone".
Explaining something, EVEN if it is calling a staffer out is not a "tone."

I definitely believe that there is a tendency to be protective over fellow staff. It is a natural human thing to do for when you're working in groups. It is a problem. But hopefully, as long as people are aware of this tendency, people can mitigate it and be more objective. 

I've raised a staff complaint about it, and had a back and forth with Brokrr. Worked out pretty well, I think. Don't know if it actually had any kind of learning result in a longer run, but I would hope so. Time will show.


All in all, I don't think you'll be able to bring any kind of beneficial result by discussing this on the forum. Too many lines staff cant cross to argue their points without just copy/pasting other people's conversations. Which, I think, is a bad idea.

I would suggest giving it a bit of time, but keeping this thread in mind. So if the staff shows itself doing the same stuff you'll be able to raise the issue. And this time with factual fresh data. Otherwise, we're just picking at a wound instead of letting it heal.

I'm in both camps that I've had (subjectively unjustified) unpleasant interactions with staff, but also been a problematic player. I'll say that I'm in support of this move with Shabago. I'm personally trying to be a better example for other players and to be less toxic in the community.

This whole thread makes me sad to read.
Yes, the give and go between staff and players is always gonna be there.
I've had some things in the past that I didn't think got handled right, from my perspective.
But, I am always here, because I know nothing is malicious.
And for perspective for all. Imagine the detail back in 94 to these issues now.
I'd say the community and staff has grown a hundred fold in many regards.
I for one, am not disgruntled. I love that the staff do what they do and keep this game interesting for me. (will be sending a request in soon btw :))
I suggest all play more, actually IG play.
Sometimes I think more are playing on the gdb. Discord. /sigh/
Since 94, I've watched this game and community evolve.
I've noticed a trend of ..how do I say, ..needier players, when I am used to the bare minimum to play. The toughest and best was in the past.
Quit trying to appease every tomdickerharry. Play or don't.
I digress, please don't flame me.

Quote from: Shabago on November 09, 2021, 11:17:54 PM

Quote from: ShaLeah on November 08, 2021, 03:57:47 PM

Quote from: Ender on November 08, 2021, 12:41:51 PM
the staff can help reassure the player that they are not out to get them.

Sometimes, Ender, they ARE out to get/fuck them and THAT is the biggest problem.

I cannot tell you how many former staff have told me how "Staff" feels about me.

My latest staff complaint was because my karma was docked when I wasn't even playing. Without having broken a rule. 20 years playing for me to have a 1 karma. If it's personal against ONE player the likelihood that it could be personal against more than one player are pretty good. You don't see players saying their feelings against a particular staff AREN'T personal. They absolutely are. The way that staff treats me, is definitely in the 'out to get me' category.

I don't think changing the nomenclature is going to do diddly, Veselka - while some staff complaints fall under "can we talk about this?" I would dare say MOST don't.  I'd change this suggestion to adding a "Can we talk about this?" category.

I'm going to comment more on this but I want to re-read it and I'm not in a rush to get out of here.  I'm late!

On a further review of this particular issue, the reason for the karma dock had to do with staff trust as mentioned in the karma help file. It was felt your actions in discord/GDB were disruptive and actively producing player complaints and requests for moderation. That lead to a reduction in said staff trust and thus the karma dock. The dock was not immediately time with the discord ban. That aside, this was not verbalised to you in a way that was clear AND as this was not a specifically stated rule (defined), I've spoken with the team and thus taking the action at the time, and its agreed to reinstated the karma point and offer an apology to you in the failure of communication.

I'd like to open a discussion about this.  Under what category should I do that?

I think any complaint, player or staff directed, should have a 24 hour delay before it's sent to give the sender a chance to chill the fuck out and remember it's a fantasy world of text. This thread is exhausting.

Staff volunteer to run the fantasy text world I play in. I don't know why I like fantasy text worlds, but I just do. It's their sandbox, not mine. I'm not willing to put the time in, nor would I be willing to deal with internet people I don't know shitting in my sandbox. I'm certainly not willing or able to make my own game. So, here I am. It's a fun sandbox, and I'm grateful to be invited to play in it.

This is a mindset that makes accepting any kind of outcome I don't necessarily agree with, IC or OOC, pretty easy. I manage my own feelings, instead of expecting the world, particularly internet people I've never met, to accommodate me.

Entitlement is a seed of discontentment. Cultivate a better mindset.

If you read this thread as someone who has never played the game, and didn't know anyone in here, what opinions would you walk away with? Would you decide to create a character after reading it? What conclusions would you make about the attitude of the playerbase vs the responses staff members have made? I probably wouldn't be logging in after reading.

I once submitted a complaint and had my next character rejected for 3 days for anything and everything the staffer could find to reject it for. (This staffer in more recent time have been more than fair to me but I avoided their staffing area as much as I could)

I once had a sponsored role force stored and was given the option by Rathustra to appeal and staff complaint to keep the PC but I chose to just let it go because I had felt that it would do me zero good to try to file the complaint. All of that said and done, most of my staff interactions recently have been civil.

The last staff complaint I filed was closed without resolution..... By that very same staff member, himself. They are gone by now, but only for reasons of their own. I haven't bothered trying to file one since and the one way to guarantee the system should work that I know of is never going to be implemented.

Quote from: Gentleboy on November 09, 2021, 11:59:34 PM
One thing I wish is that staff wouldn't close tickets when THEY feel the issue is resolved. Just a "here is what the outcome is on our side. Any thoughts? Confused? Anything you want to add". Because not feeling heard really I think is a big source of contempt.

I'll personally be better about that.  For most of my career (over 25 years!) I've been in a support role where I deal with tickets.  And in that world it's all about closing them.  Close close close.  You don't want open, ongoing tickets!  So the habit is just ingrained deep in me to close them as soon as I feel I've answered them, and move on.

I'll try not to adopt that mindset when dealing with requests and not be so quick to close.

"This is a mindset that makes accepting any kind of outcome I don't necessarily agree with, IC or OOC, pretty easy. I manage my own feelings, instead of expecting the world, particularly internet people I've never met, to accommodate me.

Entitlement is a seed of discontentment. Cultivate a better mindset.

If you read this thread as someone who has never played the game, and didn't know anyone in here, what opinions would you walk away with? Would you decide to create a character after reading it? What conclusions would you make about the attitude of the playerbase vs the responses staff members have made? I probably wouldn't be logging in after reading."

If you were a new player, from your own words, you'd be thankful to have a sandbox available and just cultivate a better mindset supposedly.

I'm gonna not beat around the bush here: I think this take is harmful at best and disingenuous to a whole slew of issues. Patuk should be thankful for the chance to play this game and 'not let it bother him' that a staffer, who he complained about, closed his request without resolution?
But it's fine and we shouldn't address it because of new players having a bad preconception about the game?

I've been playing this game for 6 years. I went from a 17 year old to a 23 year old. I outright think your mindset is not helpful to the game nor that it works.

I've seen a ton of threads in ye olden times that amounted to 'Take it to requests', this 'sweep it behind the curtain' mentality of never airing grievances. It doesn't work. We've got 5+ people airing complaints, 10% of our normal peak players or so, it doesn't work.

I think new players should be delighted to find a community thats willing to discuss a long standing issue in a way thats healthy and not dismissive to the players. Let's see what new players can find on the internet about Armageddon...

(https://i.imgur.com/wO7hShn.png)
1: Armageddon is apparently a game where people vie to have sex with children (Also some not nice things about staff).
We actually did raise the age of player character's I think shortly after this was made, but it's still there. New Players see this when googling 'Armageddon Mud reddit', which they might do when searching for reviews on whether to play this game or not.

2: ...More sex stuff.

3: Despite what I thought would be kinda click bait-y, it does actually remain drama free. It mostly is a review about how it's kinda dumb we use a Diku-clone to play an intense RP game.
To an extent I agree, there's like....a billion better systems.

4: This is a former staffer, supported by another former staffer in the comments, suggesting players join the shadowboards.

5: "I hate to say it but the staff do seem paranoid and abusive"

6: A pretty decent writing of the game. Not sure how it does as a 'review' but it's written for a magazine, pretty well written. I recommend people check it out and will link it here (https://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/64/lucas.php).



"I suggest all play more, actually IG play.
Sometimes I think more are playing on the gdb. Discord. /sigh/"

I think this is a dismissive hand wave.
The downtime I've had between characters is generally pretty low, and whether I'm actively playing or not at a given time shouldn't effect my ability to opinionate on things or be something you concern yourself with, but this idea of 'Heh, they aren't even playing the game they just wanna bitch on the Discord' is doing nothing to help a conversation.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Despite what Roughneck may believe we are all entitled to respect and, I believe, a better system of resolution. This past day or so has actually seen what I would consider strides to actually do that.

Halastar's comment right above mine is an admission of doing something that may breed resentment with the playerbase, an acknowledgement. He doesn't say it isn't an issue but provides reasoning for possible 'bad behavior', and then offers to do better.

Shabago personally reached out to people who expressed discontentment to the game.

Critique and open discussion is not an attack on people or the game, it's an attempt at doing better. For all the people who say 'Oh I love the game and never have any issue' keep in mind that your experience is not universal and I expect that you lot should be the ones who push for this stuff as much as I do so that everyone can think this way.


Post comment thoughts:
I thought my choice of words for the google search may seem a bit 'pushy' towards a desired opinion, so I did another search you can find  here (https://imgur.com/x8Uf7iQ) because this post is fucking big already.
1st link: Already discussed (The related links are unpromising though but they could only pop up because of my prior search history)
2nd link: A mostly positive review.
3rd link: There's a majority of negative reviews on this site
4th link: Shadowboard post. The gist: Player put in a review from karma, got a reply back (That I think is worded fairly well), and has a pretty upset reply about it and why he's quitting. Some of his talking points seem fairly 'stable' though, was his request instantly closed and he wasn't given time to discuss them or did he feel the need not to? In his own words "Arm staff ... you failed to engage with me to discuss it and so I gave up on your game, and you"

However keep in mind this is like, a fairly one sided look at the entire situation.

As more of a joke, it's time to focus on this aspect of Shabago's post
" There are people on both sides of the staff/player line who feel they've been cheated, wronged, spoken down to, mistreated, or disrespected and I believe I can safely state for everyone that that shouldn't happen."

So which staffers hate me? Let's fight it out. I'm open to a variety of conflict resolution methods. Boxing matches, fencing, dueling with pistols.

Quote from: ShaLeah on November 10, 2021, 04:28:40 AM
I'd like to open a discussion about this.  Under what category should I do that?

Hard to say but feel free to open it under whatever category feels fitting to you, we can always adjust the category on our side (as simple as a couple of clicks) to better fit our own filing.

Quote from: Shabago on November 09, 2021, 11:24:44 PM

Quote from: Gentleboy on November 08, 2021, 06:03:24 PM
When I put in a staff complaint and staff was on my side,

they had told me I was right on the matter and that was all. I didn't get an apology and I just felt empty.

The comment that hurt me and embarrassed me is still on that clan forum to this day, so everyone can see it too.

I have felt unheard a lot of times in the past. But, in reports and requests and questions I mention to staff that I am sensitive. And I try to put that across and they've been very respectful about it. I think sometimes our tone can also be pretty abrupt and cold. But, when I have been genuine and tried to state that, staff seems to appreciate it. I am a very gentle boy, you see.

I'm sorry you came away from the interaction with this feeling, though I do feel the need to mention that you were, in fact, offered an apology in the request. Can I request that you return to the request in question to verify that? Or, if you like, I can copy/paste it to you in an open one you have. I mention this, specifically, as if this is the source of your feelings based on a miscommunication or misread, that would be great to clear up for you and I both.

You are totally right. I just reread the request and I missed the line with the apology. That is on me and my careless eyes.

Quote from: Usiku on November 09, 2021, 10:41:19 AM
Right now we have a team who genuinely cares for this community, advocates for players and wants to try and make right how we all communicate and play together. Something to keep in mind is that caring folks are often quite sensitive themselves, and when you are putting in 30+ hours a week (on top of day jobs) to support the game for the benefit of the players then having to read how little faith the player base has, how we are disingenuous, how we are bad people out to get them or simply how we're just not doing enough.. well, honestly, it's utterly and completely exhausting and it's emotionally draining and it makes it really really hard to keep your chin up and keep going. It also makes it harder to be patient, and thoughtful and considerate when you're constantly being bombarded with negativity. Please also remember, there are two sides to every story.

I think that this is eminently clear. Everything I'm seeing staff response wise on the player side is so 180 degrees from where it was a few years ago. I think that overall it's going to be a good thing, even if it has pain points here and there. There's a lot of vulnerability and old hurts that might be freshened or aired - from players, staff alike as we kind of peel this bandage off.

The community as a whole will be healthier with a big dose of benefit of the doubt and good faith with one another.

I mean, think about the potential outcome: a reviving playerbase who are eager to play and get lost in the sandbox, staff that don't get burned out cause of the dreg or causticness of the players...like, I think it could be in the future! So we've just got to keep calm and carry on.

I am glad that we are seeing people make a discourse from both sides!

Quote from: Dar on November 08, 2021, 08:45:10 PM
I am kind of curious on how this will go. Had my share of disagreements as well. Old and new. It is my hope that the recent threads regarding grievances and the like have been heard. Now we'll need to give it a bit of time to see if there is an actual effect.

It does require some time to play out and to have actual, tangible action observed. I can entirely understand that. I'm hopeful the over-all effect will come to pass. That being, to re-state, a more positive, welcoming community on both sides of the Staff-Player divide. More as a means of continued transparency in place of a back-pat on this, I feel encouraged that this has been working already, in small part. Since that direction post, and this thread, we've received several staff kudos of encouragement (Thank you again to each of you) and we intend to keep pushing for better. I'm further encouraged by the lion share of tone in this thread. People can absolutely be passionate about the hobby and their views. They're free to state them. "Abusive" language/tone or flaming doesn't fall within that of course, and is the nature of my point. Most of you have been extremely pleasant from the get go hear, and I appreciate that. Thank you.

Quote from: Is Friday on November 08, 2021, 09:25:16 PM
I would feel more comfortable with returning to the game if I could select my staff if I happened to be in the sphere of someone I don't want to do business with. People do this in other games and I don't see why not here. I think being apologetic is great for both staff and players who have acted inappropriately or made mistakes - but that doesn't change how someone feels about another party automatically. There are staff who do not want to work with me and there are staff I would choose not to work with. Having this option as a matter of policy would be beneficial to everyone.

It would alleviate a lot of problems to have built-in flexibility like that for leaders or reporting players.

I think expecting everyone to hive-mind instantly buddy-buddy get along with anyone, be it player on player or player to staff, or even staff to staff is a stretch. It's something that comes with time or effort on both sides of the fence, to build that relationship. Sometimes, a clash of personality may never ease out and that's okay. We can still get on with the game/work.

I think what you're asking is pre-built into the game and staff coverage as is. You can choose your staff by the nature of your concept, area of the game, clan or unclanned and so on. Should staff rotate after a period of time that would cause this to not be the case, I don't think it's such a stretch to come at it fresh from both sides - we're a mature group. Things can be discussed and fixed.

Quote from: Veselka on November 09, 2021, 12:02:16 AM

Quote from: Shabago on November 08, 2021, 09:56:32 PM

I can't fix something broken if I don't know it's broken. So, in closing, I again ask that the honest attempt is given to work with me/us, try to stop believing the worst, and help make the community better for both sides.

I'm heartened to hear that the nomenclature of the Staff Complaint/Feedback would be considered, along with the rules in the helpfile, to better encourage this current/next generation of players to be more forthcoming with Staff/Producers when they have a shitty experience. That's all I was really pushing for.

Yes -- It will take time to unlearn what has basically been years of expecting Staff to close ranks and jump down your throat if you bring an issue up or file a staff complaint. Like you said -- It's probably best not to dredge up the past, but sometimes, the past kinda clings to you.

I had a recent event this week (and actually over the last 2 months) that I've hesitated filing Staff Complaints over, because it presents a negative attitude (Here's a player who complains about Staff, sigh, let's pass on future roles for them), creates a feeling of us vs them, and overall generates a sort of negative black cloud over the role in general. Instead I've been grinning and bearing it and just trying to focus on the positive stuff. But that doesn't seem...I don't know. Correct? I feel that if a Staffer is being a rude dude, a player should feel confident to point it out to Producers. But even by nature of this response, I feel the tone is "You're presenting dishonest bad faith arguments, I don't really believe what you're saying, show me some evidence and I'll think about it", which is...

Kind of the way it's always been.

Part 1:

Awesome. Glad a positive change could come about from it being discussed or brought up.

Part 2:

Sure, that's understandable. Real or imagined insults, issues or miscommunications that impact us (broad strokes here) in real life or this online hobby of ours, will generally be remembered for a good stretch of time. This is regardless of the apology or offer of relationship being accepted or not. It's up to both sides to come at the matter maturely with fresh eyes now and move forward to not repeat the same mistakes.

Part 3:

You seem pretty well spoken here? You weren't hesitant to bring it up in a vague sense, which is - in my opinion - worse, as it gives us zero to go on for details to fix. I doubt your complaint would be a fly off the handle rage, curse-filled rant to result in a negative view over your offered feedback. Not really your style. One issue brought up has already been addressed, agreed upon and is being fixed ala point 1, as well. There is no us Vs. them, so I'm sorry, but you're painting yourself into a corner of your own making. Rather than supplying the feedback and details that need addressing, you're instead impacting your own enjoyment of the game, which then affects those around you, by way of not being as energetic, invested, committed - whatever word you wish to use. This, in turn, hurts the area of the game said staff are looking over and *wanting* to be enjoyable. That's the nature of their very role in that zone. Grin and bear accomplished both sides to lose. So - again, I'm asking you to speak up and submit it so it can be given a proper look and be addressed so both sides aren't impacted.

As for tone, I'm sorry you're deciding to take it that way. It's a genuine offer to help. About the only portion of that last line that I would say is something I - or anyone - would ask for is the evidence portion. That applies to a day one new player or a very veteran staff member. If a staff member came to me and said "Veselka just posted every detail about the death of their last PC that's only a week old on the boards." - My first response is "Link?"

It's not a matter of distrust to a team member or, in your case, a player to have something to go off of. It's due diligence, gaining information and not punishing some side on say so. We each have our own minds, which are made up from what we can see/hear/read.

people need to stop getting salty about whatever the fuck nyr did. he's gone, he's been gone.with the reopening of modern tuluk staff symbolically killed his legacy in the game. now his legacy in this game only exists in your salt. was he a bad person? it doesn't fucking matter he's gone

Quote from: Jihelu on November 09, 2021, 12:26:38 AM
"I've noticed a trend of posts like Shabago's, and then my interaction with other Staff being just as bad or worse than in previous years. It's kind of disingenuous and just makes me think "same old, same old". I've spoken with two players that have left in the last 2 RL months due to staff interactions in the game and outside of the game. That's really discouraging.

"Vaguebooking and impossible to address and thus, a bad faith argument that only serves to hurt the community at large. "

Is it really impossible to address?  You can comment on it in a way that's more neutral while acknowledging an issue (Or better yet, a 'possible' issue). If I have a friend message me 'Yeah I'm done with Arm cause so and so staffer is being a dick to me' does that mean I have to just never mention it ever again and hope my pal takes time out of his day to go put in a request that only staff will see for a game he doesn't intend on playing again?

Yes. It is. "That thing you do IC is sort of lame, Jihelu. Go on. Guess which thing I mean. No, no. Not that. Why can't you just do what I asked you to do? Fix it. ...What do you mean you don't understand what you have to do. Just acknowledge you're doing it wrong and stop it. I don't care if you know what the wrong thing is or not." Seem fair?

Did your friend supply you with what the entire context was from start to finish as to how the "staff member was a dick" or did they supply the portion of the argument that would make them look best? Is your friend incapable of addressing the matter themselves? Why is it your business to both default accept an accusation as fact and expect someone who has no clue what it is to fix it? And, how is it appropriate to spread this about within the community at large to demotivate everyone - player and staff alike? I'm looking to build a better, more welcoming community. That takes energy - and, as much as it may cause some blow back here with you or others, I don't have spare energy for people outside of it that just want to cause a stink, rather than address it constructively.

I'd also say it definitely doesn't 'only serve to hurt the community'. Worse case scenario is that those people are just salty about some situation in game and defaulted to staff as being the issue. But I doubt multiple people are coming together for a conspiracy theory of 'lets all message current players and tell them staff is bad to destroy the game!'. We also have people in this thread and others talking about past experience and current experience. How far back does an experience have to be that its a bad faith argument and 'is holding back future growth'? How much 'hearsay' do I need, also lets keep in mind we aren't 'allowed' to see other peoples requests and what not, to hear before it's more than just hearsay and people are actually upset about something and disillusioned by the system.

Yes, vague-booking and hearsay only serve to hurt the community. What, precisely, is to be gained by purposefully submitting an issue, without any actionable details, which drives away new and old players alike, doesn't fix the core matter for the person doing it, demotivates the staff team and leaves everyone unsatisfied? Yes, we do have people in this thread talking about issues - their own - and they're being addressed or spoke upon in a transparent fashion. How far back? Since my post. That was the ask. That an apology be accepted and a fair chance be given to this team. Do I expect anyone to flat forget what happened before? No. I'm asking for both sides to maturely work together going forward so we don't just continue on in a circle of blame. As for seeing requests before hand - that is, frankly, no ones business but the participating parties.

" "I heard you broke a rule while I was off. I didn't bother to check the logs - you're now karma docked." "
I wouldn't really say these are the same thing. I also feel if staff is constantly 'hearing' about rule breaking that's cause for concern, either someone is actually breaking the rules or someone is actively out to get someone. The latter parts of this quote also have nothing to do with anything. "I heard from 3 close friends that this staffer was impolite and it caused them to leave the game " =/= "We've removed your karma without discussing it with you". One of these is a punitive action taken by a position of authority and the other is a possible reasoning behind a choice to leave the game.

So, no bad at all from someone who actively engages in trying to get more people to leave the game by spreading such and actively painting the game in a negative light, in place of addressing it and moving forward together? We'll agree to disagree here. Both actions are wrong - staff and player. Both harmed someone or multi someones.

A lot of the response sounded like what Veselka mentioned but I'll add my own 2 cents: "Your arguments are wrong and you don't know anything, go ask the people who aren't playing the game to get in touch with staff (And only us) so we can verify ourselves that we did nothing wrong"

Your argument is non-actionable as we have no details to take action on which serves neither side. If people wish their issues addressed, they should reach out so we can discuss the matter openly and honestly. <- There's the response. As we are the ones being charged with fixing the matter, yes - talk to us. Sadly, the three, four or twenty players that are whispered to in DM won't be able to assist you. We may very well have done something wrong and we want to fix it, as evidenced in my post and a few posts in this very thread.

Quote from: Riev on November 09, 2021, 03:46:19 PM

Quote from: Brokkr on November 09, 2021, 02:52:00 PM

Quote from: Jihelu on November 09, 2021, 09:16:03 AM
We've got people in this thread discussing how their complaints did little to help.

I am still thinking about my response here. I did read the above and it engendered a question in return.  What are you, as a player, expecting the outcome to be from a Staff (or Player, for that matter) complaint?

I am not sure if my expectations of the process are the same as yours or not.

As a player, I would expect more than "Your Staff Complaint Request has been resolved". I would expect less than a paragraph detailing all the people you talked to, the runlogs you looked at, and the attitude of the staff/player involved.

• "We have looked into this situation, and you missed <x> part where <y> happened."
• "We looked at the runlogs, and have spoken to those involved."
• "<staffer> did not understand the scene the same way you did, and as a result, may have come off harsher than intended."
• "While we do not condone the actions of <person>, here is <some edited leadup to the event>. We hope this allows some closure to the situation.

Something I've actively adopted doing for complaints - player or staff, since I started my Admin+ position and wish to continue forward as Producer. Providing *specific* action taken, is out, as I don't wish to actively shame people. However, a vague - action was taken because we agree with your position, so and so was spoken to and given guidance on how to avoid doing X again. If it persists or repeats, let us know and greater action will be taken. If it isn't something we agree with, stating the reasoning for that position is warranted.

Reading through this now, will edit when done, but I don't know if it's my screen or everyone's but blue text kinda hurting my eyes. - Edit: I put my glasses on. Weird that blue only fucks with my eyes without them.

"I don't have spare energy for people outside of it that just want to cause a stink, rather than address it constructively."

I think a whole lot of what has happened in the past week or so, spurned on by me and others, was rather constructive. If you disagree, we'll have to take it to the charity boxing match because I don't agree.

That's about all I think I have to add that could be constructively other than 'ur wrong'.

Adding a quick note about the blue text - if you are using the forums with a dark theme, it's nigh-impossible to read.

Quote from: Shabago on November 12, 2021, 07:06:02 PM

Quote from: Veselka on November 09, 2021, 12:02:16 AM

Quote from: Shabago on November 08, 2021, 09:56:32 PM

I can't fix something broken if I don't know it's broken. So, in closing, I again ask that the honest attempt is given to work with me/us, try to stop believing the worst, and help make the community better for both sides.

I'm heartened to hear that the nomenclature of the Staff Complaint/Feedback would be considered, along with the rules in the helpfile, to better encourage this current/next generation of players to be more forthcoming with Staff/Producers when they have a shitty experience. That's all I was really pushing for.

Yes -- It will take time to unlearn what has basically been years of expecting Staff to close ranks and jump down your throat if you bring an issue up or file a staff complaint. Like you said -- It's probably best not to dredge up the past, but sometimes, the past kinda clings to you.

I had a recent event this week (and actually over the last 2 months) that I've hesitated filing Staff Complaints over, because it presents a negative attitude (Here's a player who complains about Staff, sigh, let's pass on future roles for them), creates a feeling of us vs them, and overall generates a sort of negative black cloud over the role in general. Instead I've been grinning and bearing it and just trying to focus on the positive stuff. But that doesn't seem...I don't know. Correct? I feel that if a Staffer is being a rude dude, a player should feel confident to point it out to Producers. But even by nature of this response, I feel the tone is "You're presenting dishonest bad faith arguments, I don't really believe what you're saying, show me some evidence and I'll think about it", which is...

Kind of the way it's always been.

Part 1:

Awesome. Glad a positive change could come about from it being discussed or brought up.

Part 2:

Sure, that's understandable. Real or imagined insults, issues or miscommunications that impact us (broad strokes here) in real life or this online hobby of ours, will generally be remembered for a good stretch of time. This is regardless of the apology or offer of relationship being accepted or not. It's up to both sides to come at the matter maturely with fresh eyes now and move forward to not repeat the same mistakes.

Part 3:

You seem pretty well spoken here? You weren't hesitant to bring it up in a vague sense, which is - in my opinion - worse, as it gives us zero to go on for details to fix. I doubt your complaint would be a fly off the handle rage, curse-filled rant to result in a negative view over your offered feedback. Not really your style. One issue brought up has already been addressed, agreed upon and is being fixed ala point 1, as well. There is no us Vs. them, so I'm sorry, but you're painting yourself into a corner of your own making. Rather than supplying the feedback and details that need addressing, you're instead impacting your own enjoyment of the game, which then affects those around you, by way of not being as energetic, invested, committed - whatever word you wish to use. This, in turn, hurts the area of the game said staff are looking over and *wanting* to be enjoyable. That's the nature of their very role in that zone. Grin and bear accomplished both sides to lose. So - again, I'm asking you to speak up and submit it so it can be given a proper look and be addressed so both sides aren't impacted.

As for tone, I'm sorry you're deciding to take it that way. It's a genuine offer to help. About the only portion of that last line that I would say is something I - or anyone - would ask for is the evidence portion. That applies to a day one new player or a very veteran staff member. If a staff member came to me and said "Veselka just posted every detail about the death of their last PC that's only a week old on the boards." - My first response is "Link?"

It's not a matter of distrust to a team member or, in your case, a player to have something to go off of. It's due diligence, gaining information and not punishing some side on say so. We each have our own minds, which are made up from what we can see/hear/read.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Text / Tone is hard to convey, and I don't want it to seem that I'm either harboring negative emotions or bad feelings or ill will towards Staff. What you say here makes sense -- If you see something, say something, and provide evidence so that it can be documented and followed like a paper trail. I'm an emotional creature, and not one ruled by logic, so this kind of approach can scare me, but I will keep it in mind in the future.

I know that Staff have bad days as well. I can sometimes sense tone starting off angered/seemingly spicy, and then backing off the throttle a bit as sends go on. Re-reading some things that 'made me mad' in context and with some objectiveness made me realize 'eh, they might've been having an off moment or shit going on too'. So in part, I think I need to be more aware of that going forward. I'm not the only one on mood-altering medications or having a bad day.

We're here to play a game and have fun. I wish I could go back to my teenage self and tell him "Hey. Stop taking life so seriously. For real." Then again, I should probably tell my thirty six year old self that as well.

Again, thanks to Shabago and Staff for considering all of this mishegas, and like Jihelu said, I actually think some good came out of it (weirdly) and also simultaneously (unrelated to this thread). So...Let's put the right foot forward.

I'll have to keep in mind (moving forward) that the ArmageddonMUD I started playing when I was 15 isn't the same one it is now, 21 years later. That should be amazingly obvious, but I forget that sometimes. We've made leaps and bounds, and the Staff of 5 years ago is completely different from the one now (Shabago wasn't even back on Staff at that point, IIRC). So yes -- There is ALWAYS room to improve. But the fact this thread is still open, and doesn't have passive-aggressive snark coming from Staff, is exactly proof in the pudding.

So thanks again to Shabago and the rest of Staff for volunteering their time, and taking the time to not only go through this thread and respond, but volunteering your time to the community and the game. We can all do better (always) but it's time better spent improving the game, rather than GDBing.

Something about tone of voice when communicating in text. I'm sure almost everyone who communicates frequently via text is aware of it, but I know that personally I have to constantly remind myself. We project our own feelings and expectations onto the text we receive from other people. If we expect someone to be snarky, we will read their messages in that tone. If we are grumpy, defensive, angry etc.. we will project those negative attitudes onto the messages we read from others.

Which is not to say that people aren't snarky, aggressive or generally unpleasant via text, they certainly are, but they are also often not. But I do try (and I have to really try sometimes) to remember this and to give the benefit of the doubt, and force myself to imagine the tone of something in the best possible way it could be interpreted rather than the worst: slower, calmer, gentler, friendlier, less snippy. Unless the aggression or unpleasantness is actually in the language itself, it's always going to be better for everyone involved to assume that it isn't there rather than assume it is.

If I read something and take offense to the tone, I like to leave and come back to it when I'm in a better mood and give it another a chance that way. This is probably obvious to a lot of people, but I don't think it hurts to remind on it, since I have to remind myself fairly frequently. Plus, this will always be an issue in a community that almost entirely communicates via text. Misinterpreting tone can be an unfortunately destructive type of miscommunication.

I really wasn't at all going to bother sending in anything relating to this topic as it felt like wasted effort but reading other people's responses I figured I'd throw out my own grievances, I very recently got back into the game after a year+ hiatus so my interaction has been minimal, but this prompted me to read through some requests from 2018 to the point that it's put a super sour taste in my mouth. Not to be dramatic but it's actually reminded me why I left in the first place and I will be doing so again. In 2018 I can see threatens of storage because of "non adherence to documentation" - they even changed all the celven roleplay docs at that time because of myself and another player daring to play city elves that left Red Storm (in fact I didn't even leave! Just a character in my rolecall family frequently moved around!) and threatened to store me because of that player's actions. Here's the wall of text of it all. Here's a few notes from it:

Staff accusing me of collaborating OOC (outside of asking eachother for our playtimes, and one instance noted to facilitate the transfer of a huge item mentioned that left us unable to do anything for RL days without having a set time to meet due to its huge weight and being stuck sitting around with it)

Staff threatening to store me for a rolecall family member's actions

Staff changing city elf documentation to prevent us from leaving Red Storm after agreeing with the family rolecall's concept (raider city elves) after a month played. Read the new city elf docs vs the old to see this for yourselves.

Staff telling me I'm abusing my magick subguild? I was playing my very first whiran_tempest with no branched spells and were telling me I was abusing spells I hadn't even branched yet? Uh... Thanks for telling me I get those spells I guess?

Staff raising the fact I'd been banned in the game before five years prior for "multiplaying" - creating a new account to avoid past grievances I had with staff and I was trying to wipe the slate clean (completely irrelevant - this was dealt with five years ago and I arrogantly assumed was behind us, but I guess five years isn't long enough basically a "nice account you've got there, shame if something happened to it.)

etc etc

Alot of it is basically me sucking staff's cock to try and get back on their good side as you'll see - but do you know what? If there's any new players considering this game - or anyone else considering rolling a new character after a break from this game take my advice, don't. The staff for this game will go out of their way to bully you for the most arbitrary of reasons, and there's no getting around that until you concede you're wrong and they are right. So thank you whoever started this thread, you've reminded me not to waste my time further on this game.

https://imgur.com/a/2mzIDK7

Edit: Just to note at one point in a screenshot above I say "Quick note I saw mention of Whiran spells above regarding movement, my subguild is tempest so we have advantages to movement or travel on that front, except for the teleport spell which I have yet to even use." when I meant "Quick note I saw mention of Whiran spells above regarding movement, my subguild is tempest so we have NO advantages to movement or travel on that front, except for the teleport spell which I have yet to even use." because I didn't even know what spells the subguild got




Edit again:

Here's the other player's thoughts on it too by the way so I'm not the only person targeted here:

https://imgur.com/a/1k3rz47

Before the rolecall even began they also warned me that staff did not like them and would likely fuck me over too before I had even created my character in chargen:

https://imgur.com/a/WNswpAw

This was 3 years ago.

I can assure you, from another player's perspective, that things aren't like that anymore.

Quote from: Tranquil on November 13, 2021, 12:11:32 PM
This was 3 years ago.

I can assure you, from another player's perspective, that things aren't like that anymore.

Considering I can see other people airing their grievances in this thread re. bad experiences with staff complaints you'll forgive me for having my doubts

I think it's fair to air grievances from however long ago, but making it the fault of the current staff steam after so long doesn't seem right to me after they've clearly taken efforts to change how things are done.

Sure, bad things happened, but I can say from my own experiences that things have improved by alot. I'd recommend you play to see for yourself instead of letting things from years ago sour your taste.

Of course it's your choice, and I can understand why that interaction has lasted after reading through it. I'd certainly say the response would be far different nowadays.

Actually, maybe we should discuss Yousuff's case.

I first read his posts on my phone and I could not read the screen shots of his back and forth with staff, only what he wrote on GDB. And to be honest, I was kind of miffed. I mean Staff is capable of arbitrary targetting individual players and players cant really defend themselves, because all interaction is private. An ultimate divide and conquer! I was itching to get back to office to my PC to read the screenshots and write a big 'WTF Staff?' post.

Alright. Now, I read the screen shots. And ... Wtf, Yousuff?


I myself, with very zero information, only your own words in your own posts, in your own interaction with staff, can clearly tell that you very much spoke with Scythe's player OOC. 


Let's say I'm a Staffer. Get a spicy clan application of Celves in Red Storm. This is gonna be tough thing to pull off, but at least one of the players seems cool and I let this through.

The players get in. And here are my observations.

One Celf is acting like a Delf.
Tribe docs written in a way to circumvent Celf to make them into Delf.
Three PKs within a week.
During conversation, it is painfully obvious that at least two players of the tribe are regularly talking OOC to each other.


Yousuff. I don't know you. I don't know what was this tribe, nor do I have any kind of predetermined bias about you. All I've got are the screenshots you've posted. And the picture that's gradually coming up to me is a bunch of ooc collaborating PKillers that want to bend theme to remove role limitations.

And from staff's posts. I'm getting a, "Stop talking to each other OOC, PKilling for no rhyme and reason, and begin acting like celves that your characters are and then we can start taking you more seriously then just a bunch of friends who came together ooc to play some hack and slash."

And your response is, "My celf is doing everything properly. I don't know what the other player is doing. I don't talk to anyone OOC, But Aethar's player is not too pleased about being killed and Scythe's player feels singled out. I know this by not talking to any of them OOC. True Story."



Now. It's probably not that bad. And I'm being extraordinary harsh. This is due to ignorance as I don't know the full situation of what happened. But I kid you not, this is the conclusion that I am forced to draw, just from reading the screenshots you yourself have posted.


And all that, only 'after' reading the screens. If you didn't post them, I would've been convinced that Staff really singled you out and went down hard on you. And I was planning to be all, "Four years ago? Most Staff active now were active then. Brokkr and Shabago for sure. Wtf, staff?" 

I really am not invested in this enough to even humour your poor apologism for staff with a proper reply so I'll allow a full log of everything I said to the player in question for all to see (outside of their original application to join the tribe) just to shut you down

https://imgur.com/a/lb8YV94

tl;dr

one instance where i asked to meet them to exchange a super heavy object (an enormous amount of coins - i'm upfront about that and mentioned it previously) and then it's all them saying staff is really giving them flak


Edit:

also the tribe docs that were sent to staff were "we are a raider clan and intend to kill people in the sands" -> we adhered to that and didn't pk without reason. Not to mention I personally was involved in ONE pk, you're making it out that I was killing 4 people in an irl week, aswell as lumping me in with the actions of another player (which outside of what they told me IC, I wasn't even aware of - so why threaten me in the request tool?).

ALso friendly reminder they literally changed the city elf documentation as a result of this, the old city elf documentation made NO reference whatsoever that city elves were not to linger outside of their city, and as you didn't have access to the documentation I submitted staff (and they approved); here you go:

Documentation:

Name: The Mof'Atai

Originally the descendants of desert dwelling elves, who lived on the periphery of the salt flats, this tribe's history tells a tale of plunder, pillaging, and opportunism.
While rarely outright confrontational so as to not draw the ire of the nearby city of Allanak, this tribe's members are no strangers to conflict with soldiers of the black.
While never an overly large tribe, numbering at some two hundred members at its height, the tribe prospered following the many skirmishes between the armies of Allanak and Tuluk.
Following such battles, the Sol'Istrii, ever opportunistic would scavange the corpses and slay the injured for profit, acts which would ultimately lead to their decline and exile to Red Storm.
After killing a heavily wounded captain of Allanak's militia for his equipment following one such skirmish, despite offers of ransom, they drew the ire of the city after the act was reported by a scout.
Assuming them far too occupied with the war to mount reprisals, the tribe, offguard, was overwhelmed by a night-time raid on its camp by soldiers leading to its near destruction.
The few forty survivors fled to Red Storm for shelter, where the tribe's remnants have lived ever since, bitter, but still viable, in the dark alleys beyond sight of even the Sandlord's law.

The Sol'Istii, like all elven tribes, are assured in their superiority over others, be they fellow elves or inferior races.
Their tribe accepts new members exclusively as mates to existing members. Their children by default are considered a part of the tribe, but with the death of their Sol'Istii mate their membership to the tribe is forfeit.
Vultures are seen as sacred, they embody the tribe's spirit - opportunism, scavenging, and the ability to flee a scene at a moment's notice.
Whirans are accepted among the tribe as their affinity for staying unseen, finding valuables among the sands and intrinsic instinct for danger are integral to the tribe's identity.
While not afraid of a fight, it is seen as far from cowardly to avoid a direct conflict.
The tribe emphasises a keen understanding of risk versus reward, but the life of a Mof'Atai is wroth far more than any material object.

The tribe holds the belief that all things of value are by virtue of their desirability the property of the Mof'Atai.
The tribe will attempt to "reclaim" it, at all costs barring the life of a tribe's member, or losing objects more valuable than what they seek to gain.
The Atai are the tribe's whirans, and often consulted as to rumours of objects of great value or worth seeking. The wind is said to whisper in their ears as to the whereabouts of such things.

The tribe offers association status, those whose lives are expendable in the search for valuables.
Their lives are seen as an acceptable cost in seeking objects determined by the Atai as worth pursuing, such as their use as "fall" guys in rigged transactions, illegal activities, or as a meatshield in a fight.
Of course knowledge of their expendability is kept secret from such associates, who are encouraged to work with the tribe's members regardless of their race.

The chieftan (The Ah'Mof) is chosen from among any of the tribe's blooded members, even children, by virtue of their ability to return with the most valuable object they can find.
Those who wish to gain the title of Ah'Mof are stripped of all their belongings except for basic clothing and a weapon/shield of their choosing, and sent out.
After a year, they are expected to return with an object of considerable value, the elf with the most valuable object is the new Ah'Mof. Whirans are often drawn to this role, as their keen sense allow them to more easily locate such objects.
The Ah'Mof is responsible for establishing the tribe's priorities, from inner conflicts to external threats. They may also suggest to the Atai of objects of value to be reclaimed by the tribe.

The tribe will be currently considered leaderless, as the Ah'Mof disappeared without trace. OOCLY he will have simply died on a trip from Red Storm to Luir's, he travelled with another non-tribal elf associate who died also.
The search for a new Ah'Mof will be underway, and my character will not be trying currently to gain the title.

The tribe's goals (from my own perspective) will be gaining influence within Red Storm, trying to perhaps aquire an alley/warehouse to call their own, bolster its numbers by kidnapping/breeding, raiding and swindling, as well as in the future aquiring rare objects as per the documentation provided.

With Yousuff's permission, I'll start with a generic break down as some of you know I do in character reports and its like, and supply any additional information with **

QuoteI really wasn't at all going to bother sending in anything relating to this topic as it felt like wasted effort but reading other people's responses I figured I'd throw out my own grievances, I very recently got back into the game after a year+ hiatus so my interaction has been minimal, but this prompted me to read through some requests from 2018 to the point that it's put a super sour taste in my mouth. Not to be dramatic but it's actually reminded me why I left in the first place and I will be doing so again. In 2018 I can see threatens of storage because of "non adherence to documentation" - they even changed all the celven roleplay docs at that time because of myself and another player daring to play city elves that left Red Storm (in fact I didn't even leave! Just a character in my rolecall family frequently moved around!) and threatened to store me because of that player's actions. Here's the wall of text of it all. Here's a few notes from it:

** Full admission to the player base, the doc change they're referring to was updated. At the time of this being an issue, we (falsely) believed that the rule was evident, due to GDB posts, logistical inverse of Desert Elf help file, and heavily alluded to in the original C-elf role play file, with the 'City-based movements' - 'City based goals', and so on that was laid out within. As it was not completely black and white, spelled out, word for word - we added it, in order to avoid such an issue in the future.

** You did, in fact, raise the complaint despite the claim made here. The last one that any connection to the above, responded to by Nathvaan, you had stated you were satisfied with the outcome and kudos him for his ability to lay out the matter in a concise matter and provide insight/closure to the held believes that you were being "targeted" in connection to the family role and the role at the time.

- The storage 'threat' that came in the screen shot came after both parties where clearly engaged in OOC communication and baseless (or unreported) PKs (help rules: 6, 7 and 'help kill' under notes) and not solely (or at all) based upon the doc issue. As further noted in your screen shots, the ability to move forward with that course correction on the docs was met with support from myself, to facilitate your goals.

QuoteStaff accusing me of collaborating OOC (outside of asking eachother for our playtimes, and one instance noted to facilitate the transfer of a huge item mentioned that left us unable to do anything for RL days without having a set time to meet due to its huge weight and being stuck sitting around with it)

** Matching reports of matching issues, almost verbatim. Your own screen shots provided here. Laid out knowledge of one anothers requests or actions (also alluded to in your own screenshots) and in the request tool = OOC collusion. There wasn't a need to accuse you when you ...told us?

QuoteStaff threatening to store me for a rolecall family member's actions

- As mentioned above, threat of storage was due to OOC collusion and senseless PKs without any notification or report (or even RP/IC valid reasoning once one was finally submitted after said ask). The ask to adjust to the documentation (seemed?) to be followed and thus - wasn't an issue (for you specifically, but not your partner)

QuoteStaff changing city elf documentation to prevent us from leaving Red Storm after agreeing with the family rolecall's concept (raider city elves) after a month played. Read the new city elf docs vs the old to see this for yourselves.

- Touched upon above. We falsely assumed that was quite plain, and given years of game play between you both, a simple 'given' by interactive game lore with other players. Whether honest misunderstanding or an attempt of rule lawyering, having your cake and eating it too as a mix-match D-elf and C-elf tribe is not fair to other players and you were asked to adjust to a level playing field and to avoid setting a poor precident.

QuoteStaff telling me I'm abusing my magick subguild? I was playing my very first whiran_tempest with no branched spells and were telling me I was abusing spells I hadn't even branched yet? Uh... Thanks for telling me I get those spells I guess?

Maybe I'm missing this portion in the read (some of them are really small text) to find the request in question? I can find where Brokkr and Seidhr mentioned your sub-guild as not being a reason to be out and about the Known without cause? I don't see the wording of abuse being applied?

QuoteStaff raising the fact I'd been banned in the game before five years prior for "multiplaying" - creating a new account to avoid past grievances I had with staff and I was trying to wipe the slate clean (completely irrelevant - this was dealt with five years ago and I arrogantly assumed was behind us, but I guess five years isn't long enough basically a "nice account you've got there, shame if something happened to it.)

** Akin to having the slate wiped clean since Nathvaan's reply and continued support to your account after your above grievance with success PCs, including the one in question, then pulling it back up here, despite such? Your repeated attempts in request, and this very thread, to keep proclaiming innocence and persecution or 'singling' out was met by providing evidence that actions have consequences. This sort of post is expecting current staff to be held accountable for something that happened 3-4 years ago, and yet your own actions shouldn't be considered, when relevant in the context of your complaint?

etc etc

QuoteAlot of it is basically me sucking staff's cock to try and get back on their good side as you'll see - but do you know what? If there's any new players considering this game - or anyone else considering rolling a new character after a break from this game take my advice, don't. The staff for this game will go out of their way to bully you for the most arbitrary of reasons, and there's no getting around that until you concede you're wrong and they are right. So thank you whoever started this thread, you've reminded me not to waste my time further on this game.

** I'll supply my own recommendation. Play the game and don't do the following:

- Get Banned.
- Get banned again. 
- OOC with other characters to give them sensitive information IG.
- Disregard (v)NPCs and game theme.
- Actively share IC happening of a current PC on ooc channels.
- Attempt grief PKs against link dead players. Knowing they're Link dead.
- Actively engage in OOC communication in breach of rules 6/7 again.
- Disregard (v)npc population when repeatedly attacking/wiping an area

Kept vague but to the point, over conduct. You're innocent, staff are bullying you and singling you out for no reason?

Bygones being bygones, we looked to work with you on your 3rd chance, leading into 2018, had a positive response with Nathvaan over your concerns on this particular issue, and gave you karma despite past actions due to your RP talent. You were not stored. You're not banned. You have karma and you continued to receive support both during and after this PC in question.

I've admitted our error on the documentation gap here, twice - I'm sorry for it. I was eager to work with you going forward as was stated - so, frankly, this framing of a complaint/attack against the team years after the fact is a punch in the gut. At *any* point, you would be welcome in the game and community, should some ownership on your own part be taken and not have such acts repeated.

https://imgur.com/a/2mzIDK7

Edit: Just to note at one point in a screenshot above I say "Quick note I saw mention of Whiran spells above regarding movement, my subguild is tempest so we have advantages to movement or travel on that front, except for the teleport spell which I have yet to even use." when I meant "Quick note I saw mention of Whiran spells above regarding movement, my subguild is tempest so we have NO advantages to movement or travel on that front, except for the teleport spell which I have yet to even use." because I didn't even know what spells the subguild got




Edit again:

QuoteHere's the other player's thoughts on it too by the way so I'm not the only person targeted here:

https://imgur.com/a/1k3rz47

Before the rolecall even began they also warned me that staff did not like them and would likely fuck me over too before I had even created my character in chargen:

As they have no given permission for context or notes on their own account, I'll not be posting them. Suffice it to say, they're not glowing and *despite* them, they have 2 karma. Strange sort of "dislike and fucking over."

So, as a little blurb in closing here - I'll reiterate that the purpose of my post and this thread is to actively create a more welcoming community, apologise for past errors, and move us all forward to a better place. That won't be done with purposefully misleading posts with the (seeming, rather than assuming) intent of just causing a fire, to keep holding that attempt back.

Quote from: Shabago on November 13, 2021, 01:58:48 PM
Reserving this space.

I take it with the open sharing to the request tool, you're fine giving permission for me to share the rest of the context when I get back in a couple of hours?

go for it

can't wait for this smackdown, gonna be poggers
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.gRF6WnYO_PU6F6AU5fZF9AAAAA%26pid%3DApi&f=1p)

The grizzled, scarred veteran sets down his beer, and rises from the lengthy, dragon-carved round table to address it.

"Yarr killin' my fekkin buzz Jihelu, Youseff. Ya seem like yer itching for a fight, and I'm tryin' nothin' more to fill an army wit' recruits yer scarin' off." He points a gnarled finger at ~Jihelu, "I've been playing for twenty three years, and am now thirty five. That's right, ya heard me, I'm an outlaw!"

"If ya really think age an seniority matter, shaddup a minute. Let Shabago skin your long dead horse and we'll sell the fekkin' parts to the storytellers in Cenyr and you can buy a pretty necklace." He glares over at ~Youseff, the pressure from the growth on his brain making the rage in his bulging eyes mulish and palpable. "I've met breeds with more honor. You're givin' a severe disservice to at least Faithful Lord Shabago Travago, and bringin' a severely defensive attitude, turned offensive 'tude long ago, to a completely new meetin' a minds. Ya seem like you want this deal to go south."

He looks up, "Oh, yeah, you told newbies: Don't Play." He frowns sourly, face scarred by the cold winds of the beach, where he lives beneath the bridge and plays when a church goer brings him the charged battery. He holds his head, pain evident on his features. "Either work with me here, on Zalanthas, and make this place better, or get out the gates. To the worms and gith with ya. Enjoy the wasteland yer tryin' to condemn newbies to, if these walls are so bad."

I would unironically place money on you being on staff, checking the request tool, realising I'm 100% in the right and now you're doing damage control.

What you basically just said is "yeah you're right, but hey look what's that behind you! Lol look the other way! Lol!"

I'm calling it now, even if I'm not completely in the right here staff will entirely dismiss me and they'll offer absolutely nothing in the way of "we mishandled that" or anything of the like. It'll be a black and white "we are right and you are wrong", because that's how it's always been in Armageddon mud.

Edit to add:

As confrontational as my above posts are, it's really me just venting my frustration - I'll meet staff midway if they address mistakes and amend some of the nastier things I said re. urging people not to play, but I see no indication that they've changed whatsoever and other's statements in this thread only reinforce my view of that. Lets see what Shabago has to say - I'm not looking to ruin the game because there's a reason I've played it for so many years, it's fun... I mean I guess you know what I'm getting at here?

I have no idea what the hell you just wrote but if you have arguments against what I've said Grey you can type them out and I'll actually read them.

Edit made.

Thank you for the post Shabago (and I wanna emphasise I don't want to target you, this is just a generalised staff grievance). I don't really have the enthusiasm to give a broken down reply myself to it but suffice to say I don't fully agree with all you've said there, just a note some of the account notes you mentioned of my own (i.e. attempting to pkill a linkdead player, if it's what I think you're refering to) happened long after the whole topic in question.

Just for people who I know are immediately going to jump on the "See! Staff were in the right all along!" wagon note he pointed out the documentation in question was changed due to all of this.

I might chime in again later if I have the motivation

Actual quick note where you said I thanked nathvaan for handling it or whatever, that's me taking that staff cock like a good player so I don't get in trouble for daring to question staff. Don't take "had a positive response with Nathvaan over your concerns on this particular issue" as me being sincere, I literally feel the same frustration right now I felt then.

Second edit:

I really can't help myself - here's another note, if the tribe documentation was against the celven roleplay doc - why was it approved?

Third edit:

Why do I like hurting myself?

Emphasis on why I was originally banned again - "multiplaying" - i.e. making a new account to try and gain a new slate with staff in 2013. Why had I an unclean slate with staff in the first place? I was a kid when I started playing armageddon and did stupid shit and wanted to start over - ironically it became a recurring thing was raised making it very difficult to gain a blank slate. Go figure.

Fourth edit:

Talking about IC events we were both present for when trying to discuss how to best communicate with staff does not qualify as OOC collusion in my opinion, the only IC discussion that went on during this time - as I've been very open about - was to make our playtimes match to be able to exchange a hugely weighty item after SEVERAL real world days of trying to meet without results (no other OOC communication about IC events outside of discussion re. staff were made - see the screenshots of the private conversations and draw your own conclusions)

Just wanted to say that despite my own  'disagreements', as evident by posts, I as well have 2 karma and staff hasn't ever reached out to me, discorded me, or messaged me in game to be like 'Shut the fuck up on the forums Jihelu I hate you'.

They have messaged me prior to tell me to stop being a code abusing shitter before, which was called for.

I'm going to specifically ask that an attack or dog pile on Yousuff given my reply is not had (if one were coming).

That is not the intention here. That won't help the community. They posted their view and I posted staff reasoning. Opinions can vary, but we don't need an attack due to them.

Yeah, Jihelu, I'm sorry. I just think when you attack another player who's trying to adjust their expectations, and offer some mature, well worded advice in a thread specifically for that, you're hurting me a little, my game who knows how much, and possibly them. Not by intent, I imagine. Maybe I overreacted because you brought another player involved and so I felt entitled to, too, and that's not fair. I almost never reference another person on posts except in praise, or exactly in the scenario of 'if you can do it, so can I'. Reading so many pages of.... Emotional content got my blood boiling, but that's whatever. At least you responsed better than I did to you. Literally should have taken the advice I was giving someone else.

Was I supposed to be staff?  because, that's ludicrous. I /do/ have trouble with reading comprehension outside of arm. Or, at the very least, some selective posts. So I may have misunderstood. At any rate, what I thought was witty and well crafted seems petty bc staff's response actually /was/ well crafted.

Quote from: Filthy_Grey_Rat on November 13, 2021, 06:10:50 PM
Yeah, Jihelu, I'm sorry. I just think when you attack another player who's trying to adjust their expectations, and offer some mature, well worded advice in a thread specifically for that, you're hurting me a little, my game who knows how much, and possibly them. Not by intent, I imagine. Maybe I overreacted because you brought another player involved and so I felt entitled to, too, and that's not fair. I almost never reference another person on posts except in praise, or exactly in the scenario of 'if you can do it, so can I'. Reading so many pages of.... Emotional content got my blood boiling, but that's whatever. At least you responsed better than I did to you. Literally should have taken the advice I was giving someone else.

Was I supposed to be staff?  because, that's ludicrous. I /do/ have trouble with reading comprehension outside of arm. Or, at the very least, some selective posts. So I may have misunderstood. At any rate, what I thought was witty and well crafted seems petty bc staff's response actually /was/ well crafted.

" I just think when you attack another player who's trying to adjust their expectations"
I don't think I've attacked anyone so far, expect perhaps when I summarized I have disagreements with Shabago. Could you clarify what you mean by this?

I might not be paying attention as much as I should to gdb. Most of it is reading on the phone. But, Rat ... You lost me too. Wtf?

I wouldn't jump on rat, I think he's just saying he got a bit upset by me telling people not to play the Mud and he got a little defensive over it

I asked a question earlier in the thread:

Quote from: Brokkr on November 09, 2021, 02:52:00 PM

Quote from: Jihelu on November 09, 2021, 09:16:03 AM
We've got people in this thread discussing how their complaints did little to help.

I am still thinking about my response here. I did read the above and it engendered a question in return.  What are you, as a player, expecting the outcome to be from a Staff (or Player, for that matter) complaint?

I am not sure if my expectations of the process are the same as yours or not.

I will start with my perception of how these complaints have been traditionally viewed by Staff.  They are there to help Staff deal with troublesome behavior or receive constructive feedback over conduct. Whether involving Staff or a Player, these request types are fundamentally about bringing an issue to the attention of Staff they may not have otherwise known about, or providing a different point of view to an interaction that was seen as worrisome by a player.  In the interest of being professional, the approach to handling these was much the way you would expect a complaint to HR to be handled at a major US company, without the expectations of the outcome or resolution or even much feedback given to the person that lodged the complaint.  Again, like such companies, the mechanism ensures the company is functioning correctly, not that the person who lodges such complaints receives closure.

From the responses to my question, it seems the people that responded want closure, some details of the investigation, or/and the outcome of the complaint. Embedded within some of the responses there seemed to also be a theme of accountability or transparency to the player or playerbase.

While there has been a general movement in Staff's overall handling of complaints towards how Players might wish to see them be answered, especially recently, this still points to a wide gulf. We can talk about where the right place to meet is, but ultimately the meeting point must in a place where the function of the complaint type still meets Staff needs, and does not become about vindication for the person lodging the complaint in general, as this would be unfair to anyone a complaint was lodged against.

Talking with Shabago, we agree that these types of requests, in addition to fulfilling the function they have for Staff, are important in providing a voice to the Player.  We also agree that the Player should be treated with respect, assuming they aren't engaging in offensive behavior in the request.  While a satisfying closure may not be possible, we also both agree that giving the player that made the complaint some sense of the actions taken in investigating and resolving the complaint makes sense, so that it is not quite the black box process as it has previously been for many that have lodged these types of requests in the past.

Overall, Youseff. Forgive me, but you 'were' OOC colluding. Ill accept the premise that you didn't realize it, but any outside of the game discussion of recent in game events is against the rules.

Imagine this. Imagine the other player actually ment to betray you all and feed you to his dark gods. But you speak to the player and now the player has to either lie to you person to person. Instead of character to character. Or reveal his true plans.  There is a reason why 'any' discussion like that is against the rules. I have no illusions, people are still doing it. But .. it doesn't make it okey.

I do accept that this was not done maliciously. Otherwise, you wouldn't have blatantly confessed it to a staffer.  Although at this point if you really went out of your way to tell people not to play the game ...  I mean why are you even torturing yourself?

I've been gone for over a year, so I'd hardly say I'm torturing myself over it. I only just rolled a new character very recently, and I guess I saw the thread, read through it and realised "Actually wait - why am I playing this again?". Staff has not changed and while I appreciate my posts aren't just being flat out deleted (lol - why should I have to fear that they would be? I only ever feel like this on this one game) and I appreciate the staff have replied to me I can't help but feel that same frustration now that I felt back then.

As a side note re. OOC collusion (I'm still adamant I did not) - if you reread what staff said to me in the requests it pretty much boiled down to "We don't like what a character you are associating with is doing so we're stomping down on everything you're going to do going forward and we've edited the game's documentation to enforce our sudden change in view to make the tribe we just approved for you incompatible with the game world". The OOC thing was just thrown in on top - and felt much more like "How dare someone complain about us in private!"

Friendly reminder that the Tuluki city elf clan (whatever their names are) used to have ties with the Sun Runners and their members used to go out and live with them for extended periods of time. Yeah it was difficult because city elves don't have the stamina to keep up - but hey, rules for thee but not for me! My (staff) designed city elf tribe is special! The inconsistency is astounding and the turnaround by staff to slap us down then felt extremely arbitrary and enormously unfair. I was warned by the player applying to my city elf family role before they even joined that they might have issues with staff that might extend to me - lo what they said turned true when their character performed actions and I by association was being targeted for it - and uh oh - discussing the staff in private messages? That's OOC collusion - which means staff were now justified in targeting me! Had I said nothing that I was receiving concerning messages from the other player they wouldn't have mentioned the OOC part at all and still threatened to store me. In fact the only thing they were even aware of is the information I gave them in that request which is that the player in question told me they felt they were feeling targeted! That seems fair! I only mentioned the part about only making our play times match the one time because they threw the OOC collusion accusation against me - I was being upfront. I can't speak on behalf of staff currently but with many of the same members then as there are now, I can state that they are no different. Looking at you Brokerr.

I really am saying no more on this. Ugh.

Edit: Actually no, you're right, I'm torturing myself:

Quote** Full admission to the player base, the doc change they're referring to was updated.

Gee thanks. I sure feel better.

QuoteI've been gone for over a year, so I'd hardly say I'm torturing myself over it. I only just rolled a new character very recently, and I guess I saw the thread, read through it and realised "Actually wait - why am I playing this again?". Staff has not changed and while I appreciate my posts aren't just being flat out deleted (lol - why should I have to fear that they would be? I only ever feel like this on this one game) and I appreciate the staff have replied to me I can't help but feel that same frustration now that I felt back then.

I'm sorry you're left feeling frustrated. I've let you expression your view freely here and gave rebuttal on our stand point. We have changed, in-so-far-as what has been presented. I've been transparent with reasoning. I've owned out mistake regarding the documentation and expressed interest in working with you still. Instead, you wish to persist and double down on how terrible we all are, in fact of evidence to the contrary. At present, I'm afraid the party failing to change or attempt to make the community better, is you.

QuoteAs a side note re. OOC collusion (I'm still adamant I did not) - if you reread what staff said to me in the requests it pretty much boiled down to "We don't like what a character you are associating with is doing so we're stomping down on everything you're going to do going forward and we've edited the game's documentation to enforce our sudden change in view to make the tribe we just approved for you incompatible with the game world". The OOC thing was just thrown in on top - and felt much more like "How dare someone complain about us in private!"

I'm afraid your belief doesn't trump what the actual rules of the game are. Back then, and even to current in this thread, you were communicating over IG events in counter to rules 6/7. This belief is held by the staff team, and is even shared by players posting in this very thread. Pitching it as stomping down on everything because 'reasons' with your history and the blatant OOC is, frankly, baseless and unfounded.

QuoteFriendly reminder that the Tuluki city elf clan (whatever their names are) used to have ties with the Sun Runners and their members used to go out and live with them for extended periods of time. Yeah it was difficult because city elves don't have the stamina to keep up - but hey, rules for thee but not for me! My (staff) designed city elf tribe is special! The inconsistency is astounding and the turnaround by staff to slap us down then felt extremely arbitrary and enormously unfair. I was warned by the player applying to my city elf family role before they even joined that they might have issues with staff that might extend to me - lo what they said turned true when their character performed actions and I by association was being targeted for it - and uh oh - discussing the staff in private messages? That's OOC collusion - which means staff were now justified in targeting me! Had I said nothing that I was receiving concerning messages from the other player they wouldn't have mentioned the OOC part at all and still threatened to store me. In fact the only thing they were even aware of is the information I gave them in that request which is that they told me they felt they were feeling targeted! That seems fair! I can't speak on behalf of staff currently but with many of the same members then as there are now, I can state that they are no different. Looking at you Brokerr.

Friendly reminder that said clan being referenced specifically states in the documentation that "This is extremely hard and likely to cause mental issues for the elf. Same with inviting a Delf to the city, where they will 'No doubt snap over being penned in and cause no end of problems.' Sounds like what you got told. "Forays with a purpose into the wild are fine" - "Living like a D-elf when a city elf, is not." Your re-has of what "the other player" told me, has already been addressed and lacks any merit. You were not blamed for their actions. You asked about their actions and were told. You -were- held to account over the OOC collusion and kills. Difference.

With the laid out and countered claims, supplied evidence, and continued trend to not only ignore it but double-down in attacks on the staffing team and game, well...

QuoteI really am saying no more on this. Ugh.

You're correct, as you'll be my first ban for the GDB since the new directive on the basis of purposefully being misleading, insulting, flaming the game, it's staff, and actively attempting to harm the community - which is, of course, directly counter to the intended purpose of my post and said thread.

If in the future, if you're interested in rejoining us as a constructive member of said community, you'll be welcome. Until then, wishing you the best.

Serious inquiry:

May I ask for my requests to never be handled by certain staff? I can do my own work on avoiding them by checking an updated staff list. But if they move into my area I think it'd be nice to have an option to talk to a diff ST/admin.

Edit: If a ST or admin that I will not play with moves into my area I'm going to store or use every means necessary to separate my PC from their influence. I'd just rather have a formalized system that is no drama. It honestly ought to be an option for players.

Edit 2:
While grievances might be old or already apologized over, I feel as though many people would feel more comfortable playing if this was in place. It would give peace of mind to people who feel their boundaries were crossed.

Not sure, but I think I just saw the brand new Staff/Player Relations Producer get into a line-by-line debate with, and then ban from the forums, a disgruntled player in a thread about improving staff/player relations.

Is Friday, unfortunately, that does not match with our staffing model, where clans are assigned on a Storyteller by Storyteller basis, under an Admin responsible for the region.  A Storyteller is meant to handle everything in their assigned clans, unless being backed up due to an absence.  This allows them to stay abreast of what is happening and coordinate plots for that group.  Same with Admins.  We do not have the capacity to support a system where a player can opt out of the normal means of oversight.

Quote from: Brokkr on November 13, 2021, 10:29:34 PM
Is Friday, unfortunately, that does not match with our staffing model, where clans are assigned on a Storyteller by Storyteller basis, under an Admin responsible for the region.  A Storyteller is meant to handle everything in their assigned clans, unless being backed up due to an absence.  This allows them to stay abreast of what is happening and coordinate plots for that group.  Same with Admins.  We do not have the capacity to support a system where a player can opt out of the normal means of oversight.

I understand.

That's unfortunate. I can't abide that model and will have to withdraw my involvement with the game until there is a more modern structure in place. The safety and well being of players is as important as it is for staff.

I have the feeling that the inevitable problem will come up again under your current structure.

Thanks y'all.

It's an interesting concept. Would it possible to simply send in a request and ask for a particular staffer not to deal with you?  I imagine any self respecting staffer would recuse themselves on the spot. Granted, the time delay to your requests would likely be longer as a team of 3, is suddenly a team of 2. But as long as everyone are adults and the responses are not being 'purposefully' delayed, it would still work out.

The system is not codified, but would still be functional. I imagine in some respect it already works as some staffer who 'knows' that their interaction with particular player 'always' escales to problem, would ask whoever else is on the same team to handle this one.

Unless ofcourse that particular person is admin, or a Producer. In which case, it's kind of hard to avoid them if they 'have' to weigh in on the particular issue.

Quote from: Dar on November 13, 2021, 10:39:34 PM
It's an interesting concept. Would it possible to simply send in a request and ask for a particular staffer not to deal with you?  I imagine any self respecting staffer would recuse themselves on the spot. Granted, the time delay to your requests would likely be longer as a team of 3, is suddenly a team of 2. But as long as everyone are adults and the responses are not being 'purposefully' delayed, it would still work out.

The system is not codified, but would still be functional. I imagine in some respect it already works as some staffer who 'knows' that their interaction with particular player 'always' escales to problem, would ask whoever else is on the same team to handle this one.

Unless ofcourse that particular person is admin, or a Producer. In which case, it's kind of hard to avoid them if they 'have' to weigh in on the particular issue.

The issue isn't necessarily with their competence or role. I have emotional baggage with certain members of staff (and vice versa because staff tell me about my "reputation".) E.g. I'd like for instance to not have any future involvement with staff who were involved in a marriage forced conception plot - whether or not they were instrumental in the situation is irrelevant. I'd just like to not play with them. Trusting them would require too much emotional labor no matter how much time has passed.

There's other less things, as well. But I'm not on the gdb to megaphone anyone.

If the structure isn't dynamic enough to support that, then I will continue to play elsewhere.

reason doesn't particularly matter. Do you know the names so you can ask them not to reply to your requests? If you don't know the names, then that's kind of hard to accommodate.

Honestly. If let's say I dislike Halasturd and he joins the staffing team of my rp sphere. I imagine if I send out a question request asking him to not be the one who resolves my requests for reasons I have no desire to discuss. Will Halasturd just say, "Fuck you. Either eat my responses, or quit." Or is he going to just recuse himself? With someone else responding to my requests, while Halaster loads items for my plots anonymously.

Quote from: Dar on November 13, 2021, 10:39:34 PM
It's an interesting concept. Would it possible to simply send in a request and ask for a particular staffer not to deal with you?  I imagine any self respecting staffer would recuse themselves on the spot. Granted, the time delay to your requests would likely be longer as a team of 3, is suddenly a team of 2. But as long as everyone are adults and the responses are not being 'purposefully' delayed, it would still work out.

The system is not codified, but would still be functional. I imagine in some respect it already works as some staffer who 'knows' that their interaction with particular player 'always' escales to problem, would ask whoever else is on the same team to handle this one.

Unless ofcourse that particular person is admin, or a Producer. In which case, it's kind of hard to avoid them if they 'have' to weigh in on the particular issue.

Right now, I'm the staffer for a few specific clans in Allanak. No other member of staff is assigned those houses, though Halaster has oversight as our Southern team admin. I am also not responsible for any of the other clans in Allanak - those are assigned to different storytellers.  If someone didn't want to deal with me in the clans I'm assigned to, then they'd have no one to deal with at all. There's no one I'd be "unwilling" to work with in the playerbase, and hope the feeling's mutual, but we can't all be besties and I accept that :)

We do help each other out on occasion, sometimes cross-animating, sometimes adding to scenes for each other (such as the Ocotillo Festival, which involved pretty much every staff member in the game at one point or another).  But other than during staff-shifts, we generally don't touch each others' clan requests.  It's impolite, and it can get messy if someone else doesn't really have the background info necessary to respond to a request in a clan they don't oversee.

Would a substitute Storyteller be a tenable solution, with the expectation that Storyteller is solely in place to take over in stead of particular staff members for particular players?

Quote from: MeTekillot on November 13, 2021, 11:15:16 PM
Would a substitute Storyteller be a tenable solution, with the expectation that Storyteller is solely in place to take over in stead of particular staff members for particular players?

Mm...I'll take the devil's advocate/pessimist approach to the question, because I feel it's important to have a broad perspective.

Normally, players/staff get along. We don't always agree but we do get along. 

Until there's a "problem."

So extending that, I'd ask you:

Would you want to be that "substitute storyteller" whose only function is to handle the players who have "problems" with another member of staff?  Even if you were willing to give it a try, do you think you'd last very long?  The players are coming to you because someone on -your- team - a fellow-staffer - is being rejected by another member of -your- team - a fellow player.

I don't think I'd last long, were I that substitute storyteller.

We do have admins, and producers.  They handle the actual "problems." But if the problem is just that you don't want to play in a particular staffer's clan, well - that speaks more about an interpersonal relationship between two individuals, and less about game dynamics.

Adding onto what Hestia said, over watching a section of the gameworld is a considerable amount of effort if you want to stay informed, follow up with players and all the while continue your building for plots/support your clans etc while trying to eek out a moment to enjoy the game from the ground yourself (many of us still play). There's a lot to oversee, while we do fill in to cover absences in the like, it would be unfair to expect a shift of staff duty and overwatch (in addition to the ST/Admin duties) on the basis of a player not wanting to deal with X staff member. Often keeping up with player motivations is more than just "you" as your characters story ideally entwines with others in the world.

Staff guidelines, staff management and a framework for staff complaints and discussions while we try to put the right foot forward on all fronts seem more than reasonable to accommodate the community in my opinion.

Quote from: Dar on November 13, 2021, 10:59:36 PM
Do you know the names so you can ask them not to reply to your requests? If you don't know the names, then that's kind of hard to accommodate.

Yes, I do.

Quotereason doesn't particularly matter.

The reason always matters. If not to staff, then the players who have boundaries crossed.

edit for staff:
If you all are saying that "Our current structure does not support this model or feature" then that's a problem. Every modern roleplaying game has built in safety tools and means to provide a safe playing environment for everyone. It is an expectation from the new generation of roleplayers (primarily 5e players) that the player be empowered to express their discomfort or avoid people/topics. I would argue that staff's stance on this says to most young people that this is not a safe space because of its rigidity; Its love for unnecessary beauracracy which obfuscates staff 3x more than at a tabletop game.

This is akin to running a tabletop store with Adventurer's League events and not making accommodations for a player who has expressed they don't want to play a game with DM Bob. You're just going to keep losing business with a model like this.

I certainly did not expect the Yousuff arc to end this way

I do agree with IsFriday's allusion to the seemingly labyrinthine bureaucracy that staff abide by. It would make sense for a multinational corporation to be that unbending in regards to organizational change.

The volunteer 2 dozen staff for a game of maybe 200 people? Not so much.

On the one hand, I personally agree with Friday, and that in instances where there is historical friction between a player and a staff member that it would be absolutely be better if we could be able to provide alternative staff. However, the reasons stated by other staffers prior, as to why this would be difficult, are not coming from a place of them simply adhering to rigid structure or a strange love of bureaucracy and red tape. They are coming from a place of them understanding the potential workload involved in allowing those kinds of shifts.

If it was one or two players, occasionally, here and there, I'm sure it would be manageable, but in order for it to be fair it would have to be policy. And the potential of that policy could be numerous requests for staff oversight changes for a plethora of reasons (something that in itself would take time to vet, and could come with refusals which could be another source of player-staff frustrations) and that wouldn't be maintainable.

This isn't a tabletop game. It's a world that lives and breathes 24/7 with a huge amount of agency for players to be off anywhere, doing all sorts of things - keeping track of that can be.. actually.. ridiculously hard, even when you only have a couple of clans to look after. The more that oversight was chopped up, the harder it would get. We're already stretched thin most of the time as it is.

While perhaps not ideal, the option is there to avoid certain staff members if you want, by choosing an area of the game they are not involved in. In a sense, that is support of the feature you requested. Major shifts in staffing do not happen so frequently, the chance of your undesired staffer moving into your area of play during the tenure of a PC is actually relatively low, and the chance of them being actively assigned to your clan and to deal with you is even lower. You absolutely do not have to play at DM Bob's table, you can sit at any table you like.

Usiku's advice to switch where you play if you hate your staffer: good advice, but sucks that we have to resort to this.

I had a staffer who was driving me nuts about a year ago. Every mastercraft I was submitting got declined. Rationale was always "Your character would not be skilled enough to make this," despite her having all crafts capped at master. Got to the point of me trying to mastercraft Handkerchiefs, literally every kid's FIRST SEWING PROJECT and that request went around unresponded to forever. So, in a state of despair (that fit my character), my character killed herself. I got a kudos shortly after from a player who kudosed my character for being an "embodiment of despair." Little did that player know a whole lot of that despair was from dealing with a staffer who was, in my lowly mortal opinion, unfair and mean.

Next character I got a great staffer, to the point that when my character died I got a note about it being sad to see this story end from that staffer. Night and day difference. Only reason I still think of playing when I am as busy as I am are great, fun to interact with staffers and players like that.

The best solution is for all of us to be respectful, nice and cool people. Obviously. Next best option is if you can't stomach mean lame people, avoid them. If we can't have choice of staffer, leaving a clan or storing a character is indeed an option. And if a player stores on these grounds, they 100% should not be penalized as it is like punishing someone for leaving an abusive relationship.

Temporary storage in this case might help balm some of these issues. I think it should be an option if there is obvious friction between player and staff, or a history of such.

Avoiding large swathes of the game to avoid certain staffers is a big mood. It's good to know there's other people who do that. What isfriday is saying about safety tools is absolutely spot on.

I can only offer perspective from my time on staff and what I have gleaned from looking back through the request tool (something I have done a lot of in a quest to understand how we ended up here, in as unbiased and educated way as possible). The issue you faced with that particular character would have played out the same way with any staffer. They were the messenger of a unified staff view on crafting quality within certain clans. And the messenger ended up getting shot (shot = tarred with dislike, in this instance).

I can totally understand how it felt from the player side, but I wanted to point this out, since it highlights one of the potential issues of a system where any player can request a new staffer because they encountered a frustrating scenario. In this case, even if you'd gotten a new staffer, the same thing would have happened. The same thing would have happened regardless of which staff member you got. The same staff member you disliked could have been seen as a great staffer, had they gotten to staff over you in a scenario where they didn't have to do that unfortunate task of being the bearer of bad news. The staff member you got next, who you really liked, you may have ended up disliking had they come in to deal with the previous PC.

If these were the kinds of things people requested different staffers because of.. it would be happening all the time and would be well beyond the realm of player safeguarding and more into the realm of 'pick-your-own-staffer' which would be a lot of to expect of staff's time right now.

QuoteThe best solution is for all of us to be respectful, nice and cool people. Obviously. Next best option is if you can't stomach mean lame people, avoid them. If we can't have choice of staffer, leaving a clan or storing a character is indeed an option. And if a player stores on these grounds, they 100% should not be penalized as it is like punishing someone for leaving an abusive relationship.

Basically this, I think. We mightn't be able to do the absolute ideal, because we do have limitations on resources. But I think just being nicer and more respectful, understanding and patient in all directions would go a long way. And yeah, if you don't like something, don't enjoy something.. don't do it. As far as I'm aware, there is no penalizing for storage. Was there in the past? Maybe, I don't know. I never got penalised for storage and I flunked out hard on some leadership roles in the past. But at least now? Pretty sure no one expects anyone to continue in a role they don't enjoy.

The comparison to a tabletop game is kind of flawed. Sure players can choose not to have a certain DM and play with some other DM. But what if the 'conflict' happens during the session.  Will the DM step away in the middle of a session for another DM to take up the reigns? That other DM had his own group go an absolutely different route and has absolutely no knowledge needed to weave a good story. 


How do other muds provide this feature?

I'd like to point out that Arm players have and will continue to avoid areas with certain staffers because there is no recourse for bad relationships between players/staff when there isn't explicitly rule breaking. This isn't a desired solution - it's a survival technique. In many cases where there is bad blood between staff/player the hierarchy of the staff process has actually reinforced the unwanted behavior or protected the staff from consequence.

While I appreciate the dialogue and attitude of staff to engage with the player base in the last few years - this doesn't resolve the fundamental problem. I'll also point out that when a staff member has crossed a boundary - if that player is a leader - there is a massive social pressure for the player to simply "suck it up" in order to continue contributing as a leader. Then you add staff rotations and the inability to "move" a leader PC to another area - you only have the option to store.

Quote from: Is Friday on November 14, 2021, 10:13:37 AM
I'd like to point out that Arm players have and will continue to avoid areas with certain staffers because there is no recourse for bad relationships between players/staff when there isn't explicitly rule breaking. This isn't a desired solution - it's a survival technique. In many cases where there is bad blood between staff/player the hierarchy of the staff process has actually reinforced the unwanted behavior or protected the staff from consequence.

While I appreciate the dialogue and attitude of staff to engage with the player base in the last few years - this doesn't resolve the fundamental problem. I'll also point out that when a staff member has crossed a boundary - if that player is a leader - there is a massive social pressure for the player to simply "suck it up" in order to continue contributing as a leader. Then you add staff rotations and the inability to "move" a leader PC to another area - you only have the option to store.

I think there lies the crux of the issue.

Its not the fact that you cant get 'another staffer' it's that 'get me your manager' route never achieves anything for the player. The step above, be it admin for STs, or Producer for Admins, would reinforce decisions of the staffer who rose the player's ire in the first place. And I imagine often enough, rightfully so.  People do not like to hear 'No', and use various avenues to circumvent it. And once again, appropriately so. 

But the current understanding and expectation is that if there is ever a conflict between a player and a staffer, escalating it for arbitration is either useless, or harmful. Best case scenario, the staffer above would reinforce the decisions of staffer below. Worst case scenario, all involved staff will peg the player as a 'problem player'. Which doesn't mean they get stored, or anything really. Just a little sigh and an eyeroll when opening a 'yet another' request from that player
A predetermined negative bias. A little thing, that germinates and evolves into a big thing.

This is what's damaging to the game the most. The predetermined negative bias. Players assume staff are out to get them. Staff assume that dealing with that player with be a slog of counterarguments, attempts to circumvent theme, and disguised ooc collaboration.


Shabago, and other staff have made steps to at least attempt to repair the issue. This thread, Shabago's message. The general missive of, "We'll be more transparent in our dealings and there will be less of a 'thin blue line'."

That doesnt repair everything instantly. Much like the damage incurred did not happen immediately and needed time to grow into a monster inside everyone's heads.  But it's a step.

We just need time to continue in a similar direction. It is actually pretty easily killed. All you need to do is stomp on it with a requirement that is hued beneficial, but is logistically impossible. And when the requirement fails to be achieved, huff and leave. People actually need to 'want' to come together and discard this layer of negativity. Instead of trying to win past arguments.


PS: I definitely understand IsFriday's thinking. I once stored a maxed out sorcerer with a warehouse access in the rinth over something Nergal did and only returned to the game after Nergal left.

Dar:

QuoteIts not the fact that you cant get 'another staffer' it's that 'get me your manager' route never achieves anything for the player. The step above, be it admin for STs, or Producer for Admins, would reinforce decisions of the staffer who rose the player's ire in the first place. And I imagine often enough, rightfully so.  People do not like to hear 'No', and use various avenues to circumvent it. And once again, appropriately so.

But the current understanding and expectation is that if there is ever a conflict between a player and a staffer, escalating it for arbitration is either useless, or harmful. Best case scenario, the staffer above would reinforce the decisions of staffer below. Worst case scenario, all involved staff will peg the player as a 'problem player'. Which doesn't mean they get stored, or anything really. Just a little sigh and an eyeroll when opening a 'yet another' request from that staffer. A predetermined negative bias. A little thing, that germinates and evolves into a big thing.

I think it's sometimes difficult to remember that often a "no" from me (I'm using me as the hypothetic) might have included me hitting up my admin (Halaster) and perhaps trying to get feedback from a producer (maybe Brokkr) to see if a "yes" was acceptable.  And after hearing why "no" was the most appropriate response and coming to an agreement on it with them, I tell the player "no."

So when they go the "speak to the manager route" they're going to the very people who conferred with me, before I ever reponded to the request, and we ALL came to the "no" conclusion together.

When the player sees admin "sticking up" for me, that isn't always what's happening. What's happening, is they're standing by what they had already worked out with me prior to my response to their request.

I wonder if we could just add in a simple line, when it comes to "escalations" - whereas, if there was a group effort to respond to a request in a way that the player felt they needed to escalate, it gets mentioned that the original decision was in fact a group effort and not a single staffer shutting down an idea.


Edited: bold and italicized words for emphasis - that I'm referring to specific situations, not a sweeping blanket policy. There's no  way we'd want every staffer to chime in on every request. That'd be nutso! :)

Please believe me. That if every staff statement is auto understood as the decision made by the entirety of staff, we are doomed.

Quote from: Dar on November 14, 2021, 11:42:52 AM
Please believe me. That if every staff statement is auto understood as the decision made by the entirety of staff, we are doomed.

Clearly that isn't what Hestia meant.  She was giving a specific scenario in regards to answering no to a request.  She in no way implied that 'every statement' was covered in her example.

Do staff considered themselves a different group of people from the players? sometimes it feels like there may be something of an us-and-them attitude instead of just an us attitude.

Something that comes to mind was a post where Brokkr said he felt like the players were asking him to "justify your vision" or something like that. Which... fuck yeah we are? it's OUR game that WE play. I have to justify my vision upward, and sideward to other players in order for everyone to play along with it so why wouldn't you?