This thread is for discussion of the upcoming code change for armor materials, announced here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49859.0.html).
QuoteMATERIAL_DUNG
brb, mastercrafting
(http://www.troll.me/images/right-on-gangsta/good-work-sir-u-made-me-proud.jpg)
Awesome!
QuoteMATERIAL_PAPER
(http://pre07.deviantart.net/f330/th/pre/f/2012/342/c/e/my_daedric_armor___full_set_by_chelsiec-d5ne9qy.jpg)
Quote from: Patuk on August 16, 2015, 10:07:22 AM
QuoteMATERIAL_DUNG
brb, mastercrafting
Quote from: Bushranger on August 16, 2015, 10:07:30 AM
(http://www.troll.me/images/right-on-gangsta/good-work-sir-u-made-me-proud.jpg)
Awesome!
I like to think that this image is a direct reply to this post.
paper armor would be cool for a noble
somebody do something
Will the increased variety of damaged materials affect armor repair in any way? I.e. will you need raw duskhorn to repair duskhorn scale mail?
I love this! Simply love it and good job staff!
Now I'm wondering how much hunting one will be able to do before they have to replace/repair all their armor. Not that it's not a good change, I just hope it's not a jarring one.
Quote from: LauraMars on August 16, 2015, 10:27:22 AM
Will the increased variety of damaged materials affect armor repair in any way? I.e. will you need raw duskhorn to repair duskhorn scale mail?
Armor repair itself will remain unchanged by this code so you will need raw material to repair something same as before.
Great job staff. For this, I reward you with one creepy awkward Snape.
(http://static.tumblr.com/a170b1ebbd5cfcdb0af15a3f4657864b/nayj9aj/bY5nrjegi/tumblr_static_5ki0r2psp8g0gg4wk0oo8444c.gif)
Awesome. :)
Put a repairer in RS. Great change.
This is excellent, and a good change.
Good on you guys, I like anything that makes itemization more of a thing.
Quote from: Inks on August 16, 2015, 12:15:35 PM
Put a repairer in RS. Great change.
Also fix the armor repair skill. :P
Quote from: Delirium on August 16, 2015, 02:20:55 PM
Also fix the armor repair skill. :P
Can you describe what is wrong with the armor repair skill?
I hope this means normal clothing (especially fine clothing) will be totally wrecked if you get hit in combat while wearing it...
My noble's silks were ripped up after that thing in the arena with the spiders a few years ago, soooo....
I put this in four years ago regarding armour repair, and never revisited it to see if it was fixed. It probably is.
"Critical failures with the armor repair skill - ones which return the echo 'You slip and do further damage to a dusty round black shield.' - cause the item being repaired to be restored to perfect condition.
e.g.
A used beige chitin plate turned into a beige chitin plate when I failed at repairing it.
A cracked round black shield turned into a round black shield when I failed at repairing it.
That only appears to be for critical failures - simply failing to succeed without doing more damage appeared to have no effect."
Also the skill never increased for me.
It's easier and often less expensive to buy new armor than it is to repair it.
I'd suggest a staff member play with the skill as its almost definitely easier on your end to do that than me try to sit and explain everything that's wrong with it.
Quote from: Delusion on August 16, 2015, 03:33:24 PM
I put this in four years ago regarding armour repair, and never revisited it to see if it was fixed. It probably is.
"Critical failures with the armor repair skill - ones which return the echo 'You slip and do further damage to a dusty round black shield.' - cause the item being repaired to be restored to perfect condition.
e.g.
A used beige chitin plate turned into a beige chitin plate when I failed at repairing it.
A cracked round black shield turned into a round black shield when I failed at repairing it.
That only appears to be for critical failures - simply failing to succeed without doing more damage appeared to have no effect."
Also the skill never increased for me.
Thanks, Delusion! That helps, we can take a look at the code with that in mind.
Quote from: Delirium on August 16, 2015, 03:37:01 PM
It's easier and often less expensive to buy new armor than it is to repair it.
This might be a semantic argument, but this isn't necessarily something that needs
fixing (if it isn't the way you'd prefer it to be, it isn't broken, you just dislike it). If one has resources but not money, one can repair armor more easily than one can replace them with new pieces. If one has money but not resources, one can buy new things more easily than one can repair them. Each PC's (and each clan's) case might be different, of course. Tribals and the like can repair things because money has little direct value to them except when engaging with outsiders. If instead you are in a clan that is flush with cash (nobility, GMH groups, etc.) it might be easier to just buy your guards a new set of gear each week! :)
Quote
I'd suggest a staff member play with the skill as its almost definitely easier on your end to do that than me try to sit and explain everything that's wrong with it.
Not exactly. If you already know what is broken, you can tell us where to look in the code, or what to attempt to replicate. What Delusion offered was pretty helpful and is something that can help isolate a problem if it is still there. I can take that and pass it to a coder, and they can look at that exact part of the armor repair code to see if the math works out to create that exact situation (which keeps me and non-coder staff from flailing around trying to get a critical fail, and which also keeps us from creating test characters to try and skill up armor repair to confirm whether or not it will improve).
You seem to be familiar with the code in question, at least. Do you have something to add to that? Can you confirm whether or not you've seen that behavior more recently than Delusion?
I'm not sure if repairs being costlier than new buys makes sense in Zalanthas.. Ever. I can see why an organisation like Salarr might want to stop offering repairs to make sure they sell more, but repairs being intrinsically more expensive than new items makes no economic sense whatsoever.
Quote from: Patuk on August 16, 2015, 04:32:26 PM
I'm not sure if repairs being costlier than new buys makes sense in Zalanthas.. Ever. I can see why an organisation like Salarr might want to stop offering repairs to make sure they sell more, but repairs being intrinsically more expensive than new items makes no economic sense whatsoever.
I'm talking about the armor repair skill that merchants and a few subguilds can use--the PC skill.
I'm not talking about the shops that do it in-game. For that, it
shouldn't be costlier than new, unless you've wrecked the item
past the point where it costs as much to fix it as it does to buy a new one.
Nyr, armor repair has been the -other- redheaded stepchild, the brew stepchild's younger brother, for almost as long. It isn't cost efficient to be a repairer, and can only be improved through twinkery, unless you want to pay way too much for the privilege. Failure ruins the product, so you have to hire someone to bring you gith armor, or buy it from someone, or make friends to load up their packs with these somewhat heavy items, just so you can practice ruining them. If you try on someone's actual armor and fail, you are not only out the materials necessary to repair it - you also owe Joe-da Kurac a new silt horror breastplate.
It is a really badly-planned skill, poorly implemented, inefficient even when it does work, and disasterous when it fails. That is why it's easier and cheaper to buy new armor. No one with armor they actually value, would risk ruining it by getting it repaired, and anyone who doesn't value their armor, wouldn't bother getting it repaired.
Edited because I saw Nyr's superman icon and thought it was Adhira, and didn't read his name to see that it was him. I blame it on Nyr. #thanksnyr
That gives us a bit more to look at, thanks, Lizzie. That's something I can actually test (checking repair failures against how much more damaged armor gets, etc).
Quote from: Adhira on August 16, 2015, 05:03:20 PM
Quote from: Inks on August 16, 2015, 12:15:35 PM
Put a repairer in RS.
Done
Thanks to the non-Bizzaro
Superman Superwoman!
I did some more checking into code notes just to confirm on some of the claims here.
Confirmed that skill improvements appear to have been put in by Morgenes in April 2011, as up until
then, there were no skill checks or gains for that code:
http://www.armageddon.org/updates/index.php?week=14&year=2011
It will check to see if you have the skill to repair it, then if you do, you will attempt to repair it. How much it gets repaired is dependent on skill level.
I also confirmed that the critical failure bug appears to have been fixed by Dakurus in November 2011.
Has anyone used it more recently than November 2011 that can shed some light on it?
Quote from: Adhira on August 16, 2015, 05:03:20 PM
Quote from: Inks on August 16, 2015, 12:15:35 PM
Put a repairer in RS.
Done
Wow....that was like...the fastest implementation of something ever. *blinks*
Today has been one big surprise of awesome changes. It's like Gjallarhorn give away, but for Armageddon.
(http://moodnudges.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/2014-12-10.jpg)
Quote from: Adhira on August 16, 2015, 05:03:20 PM
Quote from: Inks on August 16, 2015, 12:15:35 PM
Put a repairer in RS.
Done
(http://jordanpearce.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/two-thumbs-up-232x300.jpg)
This is an awesome change. Kudos!
So exceptional.
Quote from: Nyr on August 16, 2015, 05:06:05 PM
Quote from: Adhira on August 16, 2015, 05:03:20 PM
Quote from: Inks on August 16, 2015, 12:15:35 PM
Put a repairer in RS.
Done
Thanks to the non-Bizzaro Superman Superwoman!
I did some more checking into code notes just to confirm on some of the claims here.
Confirmed that skill improvements appear to have been put in by Morgenes in April 2011, as up until then, there were no skill checks or gains for that code:
http://www.armageddon.org/updates/index.php?week=14&year=2011
It will check to see if you have the skill to repair it, then if you do, you will attempt to repair it. How much it gets repaired is dependent on skill level.
I also confirmed that the critical failure bug appears to have been fixed by Dakurus in November 2011.
Has anyone used it more recently than November 2011 that can shed some light on it?
I've had a character which used the skill, post 2011. Personal experience tells me that: it takes too long to get competent, hoarding gith gear to batter apart or patch up so many times you may as well have generated a whole new object with how often you've broken and repaired it, and even a master level crafter still breaks stuff at an absurd rate.
So, really, the same complaints everyone has for every crafting skill at one time or another :P
In seriousness, I cannot really say the skill is any more "broken" than any of the other crafting skills. There are limitations to how the code implements things and how things are set up to operate on ArmageddonMUD. With the right tools and in the right environment, with a good amount of skill, you can count on successfully repairing an object 3 out of every 4 attempts. This does give particularly trashed bits of armor a 25% chance of being destroyed on the first attempt, but in those situations I'd probably tell the customer up front that their stuff's so far gone that I couldn't guarantee I'd be able to save it.
My only real complaint is trying to decipher between when to use a "skin" and when to use a "hide" to repair a piece of armor. The descriptions of many things used IG for crafting quite often get confusing as to when they're skin, hide, tanned or raw. "Looking" at the object sometimes helps, but when you can cut them up into smaller pieces, things really start getting frustrating.
Quote from: Lizzie on August 16, 2015, 04:42:04 PM
Nyr, armor repair has been the -other- redheaded stepchild, the brew stepchild's younger brother, for almost as long. It isn't cost efficient to be a repairer, and can only be improved through twinkery, unless you want to pay way too much for the privilege.
My biggest issue with armor repair is where it falls on the economy of skill progression.
Skills in Armageddon have a weird economy of their own which governs how easy or difficult it is to progress in them.
Skills that are the easiest to gain in are skills that do not require a target, special circumstances, materials to work, or net serious consequences from a failure.
Repair armor requires a special circumstance (damaged armor), materials to work (appropriate material type), and has consequences from a failure (armor degrading). This makes it a much harder skill to progress in than normal crafting skills. I'd put it around the same place as bandage in difficulty to progress in if you're using it in a realistic and non-twinky way, such as paying people to get you gith gear.
The way I'd see to fix repair armor and put it more in line with other crafting skills is to add craftables to the skill like was done with Brew. Like taking bits of leather to make a longer strip of leather that's meant for repairing leather armor, etc.
Quote from: Nyr on August 16, 2015, 03:54:39 PM
Quote from: Delirium on August 16, 2015, 03:37:01 PM
It's easier and often less expensive to buy new armor than it is to repair it.
This might be a semantic argument, but this isn't necessarily something that needs fixing (if it isn't the way you'd prefer it to be, it isn't broken, you just dislike it). If one has resources but not money, one can repair armor more easily than one can replace them with new pieces. If one has money but not resources, one can buy new things more easily than one can repair them. Each PC's (and each clan's) case might be different, of course. Tribals and the like can repair things because money has little direct value to them except when engaging with outsiders. If instead you are in a clan that is flush with cash (nobility, GMH groups, etc.) it might be easier to just buy your guards a new set of gear each week! :)
Quote
I'd suggest a staff member play with the skill as its almost definitely easier on your end to do that than me try to sit and explain everything that's wrong with it.
Not exactly. If you already know what is broken, you can tell us where to look in the code, or what to attempt to replicate. What Delusion offered was pretty helpful and is something that can help isolate a problem if it is still there. I can take that and pass it to a coder, and they can look at that exact part of the armor repair code to see if the math works out to create that exact situation (which keeps me and non-coder staff from flailing around trying to get a critical fail, and which also keeps us from creating test characters to try and skill up armor repair to confirm whether or not it will improve).
You seem to be familiar with the code in question, at least. Do you have something to add to that? Can you confirm whether or not you've seen that behavior more recently than Delusion?
That's just, like, your opinion, man...
Having to use an entire length of sandcloth to repair a shitty gith surmac is ridiculous. Scraps of cloth should work for that. It's also not always very clear what you need to use to repair something with, and I doubt you can do as quick or efficient a job as just dropping it off at the Salarri armor repair station and calling it a day while you wait for them to fix it all perfect in 2 in-game hours.
As for the rest it's been so cost-prohibitive to experiment that I haven't been able to do so recently.
That's why I suggested staff make test characters, it didn't really seem like a difficult concept - it's obvious right off the bat that the repair skill is pretty inefficient and it'd be easier for staff to have the resources to continually experiment with it and know the guts of the way the code is working and make more informed decisions.
I was also on my phone so I'm sorry I couldn't be more detailed.
It would be interesting if you couldn't wear armor after it got down to a certain degree of wear and tear (not destroyed, but worn out -- like a strap broken or something). That would motivate having someone along to do a 'field job' of repairing your helmet or breastplate so you could keep wearing it.
[edit: and it would be nice of the shittiest scraps of leather and cloth could be used to repair armor *just* back to the wearable threshold, if that's not the case already]
I second everything said earlier in the thread about armor repair being a busted skill. My problem with it in particular was the skill never raising, no matter how much armor I repaired or failed to repair.
I wonder if there couldn't be some kind of job somewhere, in the vein of salting, where you can do piece-work in a shop with busted pieces of armor, to avoid the ooc nonsense of having to send someone out to go kill gith and bring you their busted armor.
Since armorcrafting is so insanely difficult to branch in the first place because of how it works with armor repair, just make it so that you branch armorcrafting and repair at the same time. please.
Bwahaha.
...In the same month that staff adds a tax bracket just for people with >2,000 coins in their account, a new mechanism for adding costs to maintaining gear... I am pretty damn sure that the staff and devs are adding/changing features in the RIGHT DIRECTION! WOO!
...However it does concern me a bit to hear that even at high levels of skill, there is a chance to destroy items with PC repair work. This is concerning to me. After all, Salarr repairers have a 100% success rate.
I would like that addressed if possible, and/or changing the salarri repairers to make them more expensive or have a chance at being much more expensive, or perhaps, more realistically, taking MUCH MUCH LONGER than a few hours.
When I took my boots to a cobbler last time to get the bottoms replaced, it took him maybe a whole day or two. I say to balance things out, a.) make master repairer PCs more reliable, such as by having tools that give a boost to the repair skill, and b.) make NPC repairers take MUCH MUCH MUCH longer to do the job, like 1+ days minimum, to reflect the large number of repair jobs they have to do every day.
Quote from: Harmless on August 17, 2015, 01:13:26 AM
...In the same month that staff adds a tax bracket just for people with >2,000 coins in their account, a new mechanism for adding costs to maintaining gear... I am pretty damn sure that the staff and devs are adding/changing features in the RIGHT DIRECTION! WOO!
...However it does concern me a bit to hear that even at high levels of skill, there is a chance to destroy items with PC repair work. This is concerning to me. After all, Salarr repairers have a 100% success rate.
I would like that addressed if possible, and/or changing the salarri repairers to make them more expensive or have a chance at being much more expensive, or perhaps, more realistically, taking MUCH MUCH LONGER than a few hours.
When I took my boots to a cobbler last time to get the bottoms replaced, it took him maybe a whole day or two. I say to balance things out, a.) make master repairer PCs more reliable, such as by having tools that give a boost to the repair skill, and b.) make NPC repairers take MUCH MUCH MUCH longer to do the job, like 1+ days minimum, to reflect the large number of repair jobs they have to do every day.
I'm all for everything that was said by Harmless.
A simple change that could be done would be increasing the base charge for any individual item/armor. I've had used and cracked neckguards/bracers only cost 14 coins or something ridiculously cheap.
It's possible you could up the price and add a 100 coin extra service fee to all existing resize and repairs, and increase it all to take at least an in game day. However, that is kicking dwarves and half-giants who need to resize everything anyways. I suppose this still isn't entirely unrealistic or against the theme.
If you want the best sort of repairs/resizing, you're going to have to pay good for them.
warriors should totes get repair too
all lower case because im not sure if im joking or not
Some things that should be changed about repair:
- you should only further damage armor on a critical fail, as in, 1 of 100. Master Repair should never further damage armor. Ever.
- you should get fails on any repair that isn't back to unflagged status.
- Armor Repair should come before Armor Making.
- New should be a flag reserved for new armor, not repaired armor. When you buy it in the shop, just loaded or crafted, it should say new. After it's seen it's first damage, it should never again say new.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 17, 2015, 03:38:11 AM
- Armor Making should come before Armor Repair.
Is this what you meant? ;)
I like everything about this.
Awesome job.
Quote from: Mazy on August 17, 2015, 02:21:47 AM
Quote from: Harmless on August 17, 2015, 01:13:26 AM
...In the same month that staff adds a tax bracket just for people with >2,000 coins in their account, a new mechanism for adding costs to maintaining gear... I am pretty damn sure that the staff and devs are adding/changing features in the RIGHT DIRECTION! WOO!
...However it does concern me a bit to hear that even at high levels of skill, there is a chance to destroy items with PC repair work. This is concerning to me. After all, Salarr repairers have a 100% success rate.
I would like that addressed if possible, and/or changing the salarri repairers to make them more expensive or have a chance at being much more expensive, or perhaps, more realistically, taking MUCH MUCH LONGER than a few hours.
When I took my boots to a cobbler last time to get the bottoms replaced, it took him maybe a whole day or two. I say to balance things out, a.) make master repairer PCs more reliable, such as by having tools that give a boost to the repair skill, and b.) make NPC repairers take MUCH MUCH MUCH longer to do the job, like 1+ days minimum, to reflect the large number of repair jobs they have to do every day.
It's possible you could up the price and add a 100 coin extra service fee to all existing resize and repairs, and increase it all to take at least an in game day. However, that is kicking dwarves and half-giants who need to resize everything anyways. I suppose this still isn't entirely unrealistic or against the theme.
If you want the best sort of repairs/resizing, you're going to have to pay good for them.
Dwarves are one matter, since they don't differ from other humanoids in their size
that much, but HG armour being crazy expensive is sensible if anything, as far as I'm concerned.
Thanks for the feedback on armor repair. We are looking at armor repair to make a few adjustments that should make it simpler to understand and adjust (both for players and staff).
Skill branching: flattening some skill branches is something that has been brought up by staff in the past. With the look we are doing at armor repair now, it is likely this will be reviewed sooner than later.
Half-giants and resizing: if you want an unofficial staff thought on it, the only reason it is possible to resize small stuff to quite a bit bigger stuff is because of player convenience and a lack of a coded alternative. If it changes it will likely be in the direction of resizing upwards being impossible past a certain point.
Would be sweet if you could:
craft <materials> into <item> for <race>
Maybe creates the item for standard race size.
or
craft <materials> into <item> for <individual>
If you wanted to make it right there for the person.
The problem with raising cost to repair is that it then becomes cheaper to just get a new set of armor.
The problem with making it impossible to resize up/down past a certain point is that we can't craft or tailor things specifically for certain sizes.
I'm all for adjusting armor repair shops to take 5x as long as they currently do, though.
From what I recall on the skill, it had issues.
Too difficult to train. Critical failures ruining the item you are attempting to repair.
Ruining the item in a repair attempt should be extremely rare and impossible for a Master to do. There should be craftable items, like say:
A chitin patch. A leather patch.
That would allow you to increase the skill without even having a chance to ruin precious armor. And it might make it a little more realistic to craft such patches and then use them to repair the armor. Maybe just ruining the patches on a critical failure instead of the item you intend to repair.
Make repaired armor show up as something other than "new". Patched armor, used armor, etc.
Quote from: Nyr on August 17, 2015, 08:42:43 AM
Half-giants and resizing: if you want an unofficial staff thought on it, the only reason it is possible to resize small stuff to quite a bit bigger stuff is because of player convenience and a lack of a coded alternative. If it changes it will likely be in the direction of resizing upwards being impossible past a certain point.
Before that change we need to put in sufficient HG specific armor and clothing. Because we don't want a world full of nekid half giants! At least I don't.
Quote from: Barzalene on August 17, 2015, 10:13:25 AM
Quote from: Nyr on August 17, 2015, 08:42:43 AM
Half-giants and resizing: if you want an unofficial staff thought on it, the only reason it is possible to resize small stuff to quite a bit bigger stuff is because of player convenience and a lack of a coded alternative. If it changes it will likely be in the direction of resizing upwards being impossible past a certain point.
Before that change we need to put in sufficient HG specific armor and clothing. Because we don't want a world full of nekid half giants! At least I don't.
Diminutive half-elven woman wearing frilly silks and fancy earrings everywhere disagree with you.
Quote from: bcw81 on August 17, 2015, 10:59:37 AM
Quote from: Barzalene on August 17, 2015, 10:13:25 AM
Quote from: Nyr on August 17, 2015, 08:42:43 AM
Half-giants and resizing: if you want an unofficial staff thought on it, the only reason it is possible to resize small stuff to quite a bit bigger stuff is because of player convenience and a lack of a coded alternative. If it changes it will likely be in the direction of resizing upwards being impossible past a certain point.
Before that change we need to put in sufficient HG specific armor and clothing. Because we don't want a world full of nekid half giants! At least I don't.
Diminutive half-elven woman wearing frilly silks and fancy earrings everywhere disagree with you.
I'm not even sure if I want to ask what sort of half-elf women you have played now.....I get the feeling the logs would be....terrifying and fascinating.
Per the issue of trying to figure out what material to use to repair something, examine should tell you the material type of whatever you look at. Maybe a feature reserved for those with certain crafting skills. This way, you could examine both the armor and the repairing material and know if it's what you need.
Quote from: jhunter on August 17, 2015, 09:48:09 AM
Ruining the item in a repair attempt should be extremely rare and impossible for a Master to do. There should be craftable items, like say:
A chitin patch. A leather patch.
I actually really like this idea; it solves the problem of not really being able to repair a single broken square of armour without wasting an entire goddamn scrab's shell(yes, hyperbole.) You could allow people to, say, 'craft rough.chitinous.shell into set of chitin patches' and end up with 15-or-so with them, if only to make sure repairing things gets economically viable.
It also allows staff to be hilarious when adding it to the game.
System modification: 15 minutes until reboot. Reason: the patch patch is due to be added
Quote from: Desertman on August 17, 2015, 11:19:13 AM
Quote from: bcw81 on August 17, 2015, 10:59:37 AM
Quote from: Barzalene on August 17, 2015, 10:13:25 AM
Quote from: Nyr on August 17, 2015, 08:42:43 AM
Half-giants and resizing: if you want an unofficial staff thought on it, the only reason it is possible to resize small stuff to quite a bit bigger stuff is because of player convenience and a lack of a coded alternative. If it changes it will likely be in the direction of resizing upwards being impossible past a certain point.
Before that change we need to put in sufficient HG specific armor and clothing. Because we don't want a world full of nekid half giants! At least I don't.
Diminutive half-elven woman wearing frilly silks and fancy earrings everywhere disagree with you.
I'm not even sure if I want to ask what sort of half-elf women you have played now.....I get the feeling the logs would be....terrifying and fascinating.
Ey bb dun b shiey
Quote from: Barzalene on August 17, 2015, 10:13:25 AM
Quote from: Nyr on August 17, 2015, 08:42:43 AM
Half-giants and resizing: if you want an unofficial staff thought on it, the only reason it is possible to resize small stuff to quite a bit bigger stuff is because of player convenience and a lack of a coded alternative. If it changes it will likely be in the direction of resizing upwards being impossible past a certain point.
Before that change we need to put in sufficient HG specific armor and clothing. Because we don't want a world full of nekid half giants! At least I don't.
Enter song about Zalanthan Helicopters.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 17, 2015, 12:05:44 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on August 17, 2015, 10:13:25 AM
Quote from: Nyr on August 17, 2015, 08:42:43 AM
Half-giants and resizing: if you want an unofficial staff thought on it, the only reason it is possible to resize small stuff to quite a bit bigger stuff is because of player convenience and a lack of a coded alternative. If it changes it will likely be in the direction of resizing upwards being impossible past a certain point.
Before that change we need to put in sufficient HG specific armor and clothing. Because we don't want a world full of nekid half giants! At least I don't.
Enter song about Zalanthan Helicopters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh02dV0ao-w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh02dV0ao-w)
I haven't seen the effects of this yet, but I'm pretty sure I'm not a fan of the change. Same goes for tool degradation. Just seems like meaningless hoops to jump through that don't add anything to the enjoyment of the game.
I'm curious to see it in action, though I have similar concerns to RGS and others: that this is just a hoop that's going to require more time and money to get through. Otherwise, I support things in the game following a sane pattern of use.
What I'm really hoping for is that this is a step towards reviewing armor values and letting us anticipate a piece of armor's effectiveness, rather than having to find out through trail and error if your 20-line mastercraft helm is as good as the one with a 10 word description.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 17, 2015, 07:40:48 PM
What I'm really hoping for is that this is a step towards reviewing armor values and letting us anticipate a piece of armor's effectiveness, rather than having to find out through trail and error if your 20-line mastercraft helm is as good as the one with a 10 word description.
I really want this for all armors, weapons and tools if you have the appropriate skill to evaluate the item's effectiveness. I'd much rather have it be a comparison command though. Compare two pieces of armor, or weapons, and see the relative differences.
The obsidian shortsword seems faster than the bone longsword.
The obsidian shortsword seems like it would do less HP damage than bone longsword.
The obsidian shortsword seems like it would do about the same Stun damage as the bone longsword.
The obsidian shortsword seems more effective at parrying than bone longsword.
The grey bandage appears more effective at staunching wounds than the smelly piece of rag.
The black, chitin helmet seems like it would provide more protection against slashing attacks than the padded bone helm.
The black, chitin helmet seems like it would provide less protection against bludgeoning attacks than the padded bone helm.
The black, chitin helmet seems like it would provide about the same protection against slashing attacks than the padded bone helm.
That kind of thing. So, in order to find the best items, you need a lot of items to compare them against...i.e...Salarri really will be the experts on what gear is amazing, if they care to share that information :)
I would also tune this to be less than 100% precise, just give you a general idea. I don't want everyone in the game to inevitably use the same exact weapons because they 'compare' better than everything else. If something does 12 damage, and another does 13, it should show up as "about the same" in the comparison.
Quote from: wizturbo on August 17, 2015, 07:47:49 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 17, 2015, 07:40:48 PM
What I'm really hoping for is that this is a step towards reviewing armor values and letting us anticipate a piece of armor's effectiveness, rather than having to find out through trail and error if your 20-line mastercraft helm is as good as the one with a 10 word description.
I really want this for all armors, weapons and tools if you have the appropriate skill to evaluate the item's effectiveness. I'd much rather have it be a comparison command though. Compare two pieces of armor, or weapons, and see the relative differences.
This shortsword seems faster than the longsword.
This shortsword seems like it would do less damage than the longsword.
This shortsword seems more effective at parrying than the longsword.
That kind of thing. So, in order to find the best items, you need a lot of items to compare them against...i.e...Salarri really will be the experts on what gear is amazing...if they care to share that information :)
This shortsword is highly ineffective against platemail of all kinds.
This shortsword is highly effective against low grade leathers.
This shortsword is effective against middle grade leathers.
This shortsword is less effective against...
So on and so forth. That's the sort of weapon/armor itemization I want. Highly interactive gear.
Quote from: Armaddict on August 17, 2015, 07:53:53 PM
This shortsword is highly ineffective against platemail of all kinds.
This shortsword is highly effective against low grade leathers.
This shortsword is effective against middle grade leathers.
This shortsword is less effective against...
So on and so forth. That's the sort of weapon/armor itemization I want. Highly interactive gear.
I don't think that's how items are designed now though. I don't think there's a "platemail vs. bone shortsword" calculation. I might be wrong though. I'm not asking for a complete redesign of the combat code and mechanics, just a way to compare items against each other. I think it's a lot easier to build something like that, which is just comparing values on the items...
Quote from: wizturbo on August 17, 2015, 07:56:48 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on August 17, 2015, 07:53:53 PM
This shortsword is highly ineffective against platemail of all kinds.
This shortsword is highly effective against low grade leathers.
This shortsword is effective against middle grade leathers.
This shortsword is less effective against...
So on and so forth. That's the sort of weapon/armor itemization I want. Highly interactive gear.
I don't think that's how items are designed now though. I don't think there's a "platemail vs. bone shortsword" calculation. I might be wrong though. I'm not asking for a complete redesign of the combat code and mechanics, just a way to compare items against each other. I think it's a lot easier to build something like that, which is just comparing values on the items...
That's what I'm saying. I'd like it built up to that. It requires a bit more of a code overhaul. But your compare brings out that interactivity between items.
Quote from: jhunter on August 17, 2015, 09:48:09 AM
From what I recall on the skill, it had issues.
Too difficult to train. Critical failures ruining the item you are attempting to repair.
Ruining the item in a repair attempt should be extremely rare and impossible for a Master to do. There should be craftable items, like say:
A chitin patch. A leather patch.
That would allow you to increase the skill without even having a chance to ruin precious armor. And it might make it a little more realistic to craft such patches and then use them to repair the armor. Maybe just ruining the patches on a critical failure instead of the item you intend to repair.
Make repaired armor show up as something other than "new". Patched armor, used armor, etc.
This. Is a great idea.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 17, 2015, 07:40:48 PM
What I'm really hoping for is that this is a step towards reviewing armor values and letting us anticipate a piece of armor's effectiveness
By itself, with nothing else, this is a step towards players being able to figure out what armor
IS good. If all armor can be damaged by combat, then armor that is stronger will last longer before needing repair.
However, there is "more" in that this is indeed only one step that is part of this project, which directly affects weapons more than armor (the armor change here was a necessary precursor):
Quote from: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49803.0.htmlUpdating weapon values and material affects/effects. Proposal submitted, WIP.
Owners: Nessalin, Taijan
Quote from: Nyr on August 17, 2015, 09:09:40 PM
this is indeed only one step that is part of this project, which directly affects weapons more than armor (the armor change here was a necessary precursor):
Aww yeah! Weak weapons snapping when they hit hard armor. Nice!
Quote from: Adhira on August 16, 2015, 05:03:20 PM
Quote from: Inks on August 16, 2015, 12:15:35 PM
Put a repairer in RS.
Done
Hooray! Great updates lately!
I randomly idea'd about a red storm repair guy before reading this, coincidentally.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on August 17, 2015, 07:14:02 PM
I haven't seen the effects of this yet, but I'm pretty sure I'm not a fan of the change. Same goes for tool degradation. Just seems like meaningless hoops to jump through that don't add anything to the enjoyment of the game.
It's more of a 'fix' than a 'change'. Certain material types did not have entries in the table that determines how they take damage.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on August 17, 2015, 07:14:02 PM
I haven't seen the effects of this yet, but I'm pretty sure I'm not a fan of the change. Same goes for tool degradation. Just seems like meaningless hoops to jump through that don't add anything to the enjoyment of the game.
The beginning will likely be a bit jarring.
But over time, I bet it will go a long way towards identifying guy who spend all their time out in the wilds, who suffer actual wear and tear, over the neat and tidy hunter who rarely goes out. Could add some interesting dynamics to the world...just that it will be a hassle for people who are used to all of their things staying new, thinking it was put in just to penalize them, over adding another dynamic layer to the game.
Then again, if the rates are messed up, and it happens all the time and is expensive to even keep armor serviceable, then I'd agree with you.
Man, I almost want to roll a merchant who isn't a subclass armorcrafter, now.
Last merchant:
You have been playing for 39 days and 12 hours.
Craft skills
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
***** (master) ***** (master)
***** (master) ***** (master)
***** (master) ***** (master)
***** (master) ***** (master)
***** (master) ***** (master)
***** (master) ***** (master)
***** (master) ***** (master)
***** (master) ***** (master)
***** (master) ***** (master)
***** (advanced) ***** (journeyman)
***** (master) ***** (master)
***** (master) armor repair (novice)
analyze (novice) ***** (master)
***** (master) ***** (master)
This change is fine.
EDIT:
If you make special armor for super ripped motherfuckers (EG: Half giants)
they should be just as good as regular armor, if not much better to compensate for the incredible slowness of the character type
If this is a precursor to weapon degradation, then I'd like to bring this up in advance:
Half-giants, dwarf-warriors, and muls in particular, all have a nasty habit of breaking clubs and sparring weapons long before anyone else does. This is incredibly expensive, especially for newly-generated PCs who just don't have money to replace them every RL week. It's also a drain on clan funds to constantly have to replace sparring weapons because Amos the Stump busted the last dagger, again.
My request is that the ability to completely destroy a weapon be turned down a notch, OR that sparring weapons be documented as having some internal support that we can't see by looking at them, that makes them less destructable - and then make them MUCH less destructable. Not indestructable - having to replace them once in awhile is a good idea and I totally get it and support it. But I remember the last time I was a Sergeant and had to replace sparring weapons for a half-giant - it was pretty frustrating.
I agree with Lizzie to some extent. I think someone who uses their weapons should tend to them, but if weapons are going to all wear out, which I actually hope happens, they all need to be clear on how much they are worn, and, no weapon should break cometely. A "broken" weapon should still be usable, but with terrible damage stats.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 19, 2015, 05:30:26 PM
I agree with Lizzie to some extent. I think someone who uses their weapons should tend to them, but if weapons are going to all wear out, which I actually hope happens, they all need to be clear on how much they are worn, and, no weapon should break cometely. A "broken" weapon should still be usable, but with terrible damage stats.
Why?
I think weapons breaking is one of the cooler features of combat. Perhaps the frequency could be looked at, but I don't think broken weapons should...Not break?
Just because a weapon breaks doesn't mean it should disintegrate in your hand. If your Awesome Longsword of Grievous Wounds suddenly turned into a Shattered Hilt of Nicking Blows, that's more realistic than it both never breaking at all, or just ceasing to exist.
Lizzie's post had me thinking the same thing, actually. IF we were going to have weapons noticeably degrade in condition and eventually get to the point where they were broken and no longer repairable, it'd be neat if destruction didn't make the weapon disappear completely. That way a fighter could keep trying to fend off blows or win a fight with an implement that's now far less usable, but still a step above being barehanded.
However, a big issue I see is that there are many different ways a weapon can break. Hmm...
Quote from: Taijan on August 19, 2015, 06:31:47 PM
Lizzie's post had me thinking the same thing, actually. IF we were going to have weapons noticeably degrade in condition and eventually get to the point where they were broken and no longer repairable, it'd be neat if destruction didn't make the weapon disappear completely. That way a fighter could keep trying to fend off blows or win a fight with an implement that's now far less usable, but still a step above being barehanded.
However, a big issue I see is that there are many different ways a weapon can break. Hmm...
I agree! I'd like to see weapons go to notched/dented/bent, etc, before shattering, and have a weapon repair skill or a weapon repair NPC. I bet that'd be big business in Zalanthas.
Quote from: Clearsighted on August 19, 2015, 07:05:32 PM
Quote from: Taijan on August 19, 2015, 06:31:47 PM
Lizzie's post had me thinking the same thing, actually. IF we were going to have weapons noticeably degrade in condition and eventually get to the point where they were broken and no longer repairable, it'd be neat if destruction didn't make the weapon disappear completely. That way a fighter could keep trying to fend off blows or win a fight with an implement that's now far less usable, but still a step above being barehanded.
However, a big issue I see is that there are many different ways a weapon can break. Hmm...
I agree! I'd like to see weapons go to notched/dented/bent, etc, before shattering, and have a weapon repair skill or a weapon repair NPC. I bet that'd be big business in Zalanthas.
<primary hand> a bent turquoise-braided leather whip
<secondary hand> a notched notched bone knife
Chipped, notched, cracked, broken. Leave the details of how it's broken to the PCs. I don't think there's a lot of weapons in Zalanthas that could realistically bend.
While we're on this kick, we could unfuck the archery code so that arrows don't magically disappear into thin air on impact.
Quote from: Wday on August 16, 2015, 10:42:44 AM
I love this! Simply love it and good job staff!
Three days away, don't even have to write my own responses. Great job, love the realism. Every day it gets a little harder...just like it's supposed to be!
Quote from: Culinary Critic on August 19, 2015, 08:06:29 PM
Quote from: Wday on August 16, 2015, 10:42:44 AM
I love this! Simply love it and good job staff!
Three days away, don't even have to write my own responses. Great job, love the realism. Every day it gets a little harder...just like it's supposed to be!
Have to chime in and also say I really like these changes, too, and I feel like everything is moving in the right direction!
Quote from: wizturbo on August 17, 2015, 07:47:49 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 17, 2015, 07:40:48 PM
What I'm really hoping for is that this is a step towards reviewing armor values and letting us anticipate a piece of armor's effectiveness, rather than having to find out through trail and error if your 20-line mastercraft helm is as good as the one with a 10 word description.
I really want this for all armors, weapons and tools if you have the appropriate skill to evaluate the item's effectiveness. I'd much rather have it be a comparison command though. Compare two pieces of armor, or weapons, and see the relative differences.
Love the update!
Also, comparison yes pless:
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48611.0.html
I'm personally against a command that compares two like items on the basis that such knowledge comes from experience and not just a command that tells you what one is better for.
I place a lot of value in consistency though. Ideally, if you have a good idea of how a plain bone longsword performs in combat, you won't run into scenarios where an identical sword with a purple dragon painted on the sword performs exponentially better - or to use an example I saw somewhat recently, you won't find daggers that are as strong as greatswords.
(PS. I've been looking. The data doesn't support that claim.)
Quote from: Taijan on August 20, 2015, 02:25:15 AM
I'm personally against a command that compares two like items on the basis that such knowledge comes from experience and not just a command that tells you what one is better for.
I think that's a good idea too Taijan. This was my suggestion about that:
Quote
Optionally to refine the "compare" skill beyond a boolean success, and to avoid limiting it to only a specific class or classes which would undermine the point of implementing it in the first place, you could have it interact with the expertise of the character doing the comparing as well. So if the character was a master at slashing weapons, or a master weaponsmith, their prediction would be more accurate as to just how good that sword is compared to another, compared to a novice's assessment. In addition, or in the alternative, you could also restrict the compare skill to only work for those who have a coded skill related to the item, or have attained a certain skill level. I'd assume the latter would be a whole lot of work though, to add these sort of inter-relations to the huge amount of items in-game. Still, either of these refinements might go some ways toward mitigating some of the downsides, while still retaining the ideal utility for the skill.
I see what you're saying, IntuitiveApathy. You didn't respond to the second part of my post though ;)
If, through sheer experience, you notice a common trend of how weapons of a certain make and material perform and then find that similar items perform in much the same way, but different materials or weapons styles consistently behave in a similar manner, would adding such a command be necessary? Or largely superfluous? My gut feeling leans towards superfluous. And it removes situations where someone can go out and test various weapons to get a good idea of how they perform.
I didn't know people could actually tell a difference between armor items. I sure never could. I can tell when I'm wearing armor, but they all seem the same to me.
Read the description. If one piece of armor sounds better than another, it likely is going to be better. If it sounds ragged and falling apart, well, it probably isn't as good as something that is well crafted and designed. Also material is taken in account. Scrab shell is weaker than Horror shell for example.
Quote from: Alesan on August 21, 2015, 11:13:47 AM
I didn't know people could actually tell a difference between armor items. I sure never could. I can tell when I'm wearing armor, but they all seem the same to me.
To get good comparison data, you have to fight the same critter or spar the same PC over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over....But yes, armor does "work" if you have the strength to wear it without being encumbered.
Quote from: Ath on August 21, 2015, 02:14:11 PM
Read the description. If one piece of armor sounds better than another, it likely is going to be better. If it sounds ragged and falling apart, well, it probably isn't as good as something that is well crafted and designed. Also material is taken in account. Scrab shell is weaker than Horror shell for example.
Oh, sure. Some
sound better than others. But I've never really been able to tell while using them.
Quote from: Alesan on August 21, 2015, 02:17:49 PM
Quote from: Ath on August 21, 2015, 02:14:11 PM
Read the description. If one piece of armor sounds better than another, it likely is going to be better. If it sounds ragged and falling apart, well, it probably isn't as good as something that is well crafted and designed. Also material is taken in account. Scrab shell is weaker than Horror shell for example.
Oh, sure. Some sound better than others. But I've never really been able to tell while using them.
Mmm... I guess I would look at that in the IC sense of... is this armor helping me not get damaged as much? Is this armor soaking full his (bouncing off) more than it did before? I mean, you have to think of it in the literal sense of the character to be honest. Some character may care more that it looks better or looks cool.
Quote from: Ath on August 21, 2015, 02:14:11 PM
Read the description. If one piece of armor sounds better than another, it likely is going to be better. If it sounds ragged and falling apart, well, it probably isn't as good as something that is well crafted and designed. Also material is taken in account. Scrab shell is weaker than Horror shell for example.
But is some rare beast's shell stronger than silt horror? What's the protective differences of one finely crafted horror shell platemail versus another finely crafted platemail but of a different design? We have no way of telling that at the moment except for the "and over and over and over and over' method. Of course there are also trade offs. Maybe that rare chitin shell is exactly the same strength as horror...but, it weighs less! Which makes it great for characters without as much strength. Or, maybe the reverse is true, and it protects the same but weighs more...we have no way at all of knowing that right now, where any Zalanthian with a brain could easily test these things. In fact could probably estimate it pretty accurately just by handling it or looking at it....except sometimes these things cannot be easily conveyed with a half paragraph item description.
Quote from: wizturbo on August 21, 2015, 06:10:24 PM
Or, maybe the reverse is true, and it protects the same but weighs more...we have no way at all of knowing that right now, where any Zalanthian with a brain could easily test these things. In fact could probably estimate it pretty accurately just by handling it or looking at it....except sometimes these things cannot be easily conveyed with a half paragraph item description.
If I gave you two motorcycle jackets, could you tell me which one was going to save more of your skin? Two bicycle helmets? If I gave you two kitchen knives, could you tell me which one was going to hold an edge longer? I agree the difference should be clear in some cases (cloth vs. leather vs. plate) but not others.
It's true you have to test these things over and over and over again to know, but... aren't you sparring over and over and over again anyway?
Because it's such a big playtime investment, though, it would be cool if staff somehow let a character know that his favorite broadsword had had its stats changed, if it comes up.
Matters aren't helped by the fact that only a select few individuals in the known can semi-accurately and consistently tell by feel the difference between a 1 stone and a 5 stone weight.
Quote from: CodeMaster on August 21, 2015, 06:36:50 PM
If I gave you two motorcycle jackets, could you tell me which one was going to save more of your skin? Two bicycle helmets? If I gave you two kitchen knives, could you tell me which one was going to hold an edge longer? I agree the difference should be clear in some cases (cloth vs. leather vs. plate) but not others.
Yes, I could estimate this, and I know nothing at all about motorcycle jackets, or bike helmets. I might be wrong with my estimate, but I promise you an expert at motorcycle jackets will be able to estimate it MUCH more reliably. I'm not suggesting this be something anyone can know, I'm suggesting it be a skill, or part of an existing skill more likely.
I could test the kitchen knives by chopping up some things over the course of a few RL hours, and compare the edges afterwards. I could take a knife and stab at a piece of shell, and see which knife pierces it better, when I exert about the same amount of force... anyone could do this, but it's not possible to do in Armageddon because of code constraints.
Here's an example of in-game descriptions, tell me which one of these provides more protection using just the description...
A pair of black chitin arm guards - x weight in stones
A stiff leather base has been used to form these arm-guards, a series of
sturdy leather ties allowing them to be adjusted to fit the width of almost
any arm. Jointed at the elbow, they provide a good deal of protection
without compromising too much freedom of movement. Deep black beetle shell
plates have been affixed to the upper and lower parts of each section.
a pair of black, bone scalemail arm-guards - x + 3 weight in stones
A pair of leather sleeves has been covered with a series of bone scales
to construct these armguards. The bone scales have been blackened by intense
heat. The sleeves seem very durable and provide a thick layer of protection
for the wearer.
Both armors contain leather, with stronger materials covering the leather. One is black beetle chitin, the other is fire-blackened bone. Both sound pretty protective to me, but I have absolutely no idea which provides more protection. I'd lean towards the bone, because it weighs more, and doesn't say anything about mobility, and I assume that mobility comes at the cost of protection...but that's not true of modern armor. Articulated plate armor was very maneuverable, and extremely protective... In fact, the chitin armor's references to being adjustable, and allowing freedom of movement make it sound more protective, even though it's much lighter. So which is true in this case? The lighter, more maneuverable chitin, or the heavier blackened bone?
I look at the help files, and find this "Bone is also used in many pieces of armor, providing resilient yet only moderately heavy protection (in terms of encumbrance)" in regards to bone, and for chitin I get this "Chitin is very durable and, if crafted well, can hold a reasonably sharp edge..... In its natural form, chitin is armor, and so it should be no surprise that it can be made into a wide range of pieces to be worn by humanoids."
The helpfiles don't really resolve my questions above... so, I really have no idea which provides more protection. And this is just the first items I saw that i could make a comparison with, I have these same questions literally every single time I shop for armor or weapons, unless there's one item with a description that definitively makes it sound better than other options...which is pretty rare.
I also don't want to do hours of number crunching just to find out that x-shell armor protects about .2 DPS more damage than x-bone armor. Some people get their rocks off by doing this, but I don't. I'm not really advocating a compare skill, really, but I do feel like armor is just a guessing game 90% of the time.
Quote from: Taijan on August 21, 2015, 01:55:49 AM
I see what you're saying, IntuitiveApathy. You didn't respond to the second part of my post though ;)
If, through sheer experience, you notice a common trend of how weapons of a certain make and material perform and then find that similar items perform in much the same way, but different materials or weapons styles consistently behave in a similar manner, would adding such a command be necessary? Or largely superfluous? My gut feeling leans towards superfluous. And it removes situations where someone can go out and test various weapons to get a good idea of how they perform.
I'm sure we all would like to see more consistency across existing (and future) game items - it sounds like you guys are working on trying to do that for the gear in the game, and given how many items there are and how massive a project it must be, whoever's working on that deserves kudos!
I don't feel that a compare command would be superfluous though, even once item consistency is achieved. If the argument is that once you the player have an idea on an OOC level of how two items compare that you wouldn't need the command at all later since you the player already know and thus that should translate into your imparting and playing with that knowledge IC'ly, then should we be taking out the value command for being superfluous as well? I feel it operates similarly (you just need to use the value command on each item to compare their values), so the same arguments should apply. Does having the value command remove situations where someone can just bring an item to a shop to see how much a shopkeeper will buy it for? Should we be taking information out of the assess -v (person) command since a target's sdesc/mdesc/etc should describe them enough that we shouldn't need an informational command to compare?
Some others have pointed out sometimes the only way to really know the differences in between items is to test them ad-infinitum - the RNG and lack of concrete knowledge of how pieces of the code work together is difficult to compensate for in order to get to a state where one can be confident in their comparison assessment. I've been playing this game for many years now, and I really couldn't tell you what gear is better in various ways than others, except in the most general terms. I've not had the opportunity to even use 3/4 or possibly even 9/10 of the gear in the stores to even make a comparative analysis, yet my character once experienced, probably should be able to, and my lack of knowledge on an OOC level shouldn't be a barrier to that. Even with pieces of gear that my characters have used, I'm still not sure I could tell you which ones are strictly better.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be flippant or contrarian - it's just that I really feel the benefits of a compare command done right would outweigh the negatives.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 21, 2015, 06:40:45 PM
Matters aren't helped by the fact that only a select few individuals in the known can semi-accurately and consistently tell by feel the difference between a 1 stone and a 5 stone weight.
Actually... (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,41465.msg612693.html#msg612693)
Markets should all have scale NPCs that weigh items for a fee.
I'd pay good money to an NPC to weigh stuff for me. And even more sid to a merchant PC if they could compare and tell me which overpriced, overweight piece of armor/weapon was better than the other. I would also love to be able to analyze a piece of gear/weapon/tool and have it tell me if it will assist(boost) me in some skill i might have by using, holding or wearing it.
I know staff sometimes think these things are obvious due to description, but at the end of the day its still guess work unless you've seen the code. For example, some things I've felt that should provide boosts to certain abilities based on their descriptions, really don't.
MATERIAL_FOOD
Bacon Body Armor:
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/63/23/01/6323011cdced4da85a59662a351b47f0.jpg)
"I killed him for the bacon, Lord Templar."