This has cropped up in a couple threads lately, and an admin (Nyr?) said that noble stipends were changed to provide proper levels of income, except, even with the changed versions (changed when?) the stipends are honestly pathetically paltry, looking at them from a player level rather than an admin's point of view. Without giving precise numbers, a weekly stipend can be outstripped by a salt grebber's player spending an RL evening watching a couple movies and mashing 'forage salt' every twenty seconds. They can be outstripped by indie merchants in no time at all, too, by selling whatever crafted goods they feel like to whatever NPCs will buy.
The sneaky noble thread had a few people pointing to the problem that nobles have no real, tangible power. One thing to address for a start might at least be the lack of any real wealth. People working for nobles are at most playing along with the idea that nobles are wealthy, and pretending that the two or three thousand coins a noble might offer for a monumentally difficult task are actually worth it, compared to just finding someone who sells five pairs of black silky braies after each reboot to join up with.
Same problem applies to GMH people, but I don't even want to try to kill two birds with one stone.
Giving nobles money won't solve that issue because people don't care about money, or they'll just take your money and fuck you over regardless.
I always thought that the point OOCly and ICly (though less so) of your House giving you a low stipend was to encourage you (OOCly) to be more involved and (ICly) to be out trying to better your interests (and thusly the House's). Some houses have a business end that provides income: slave sales for Borsail/Winrothol, taxes from the templarate for public works for Jal/Tennessee). Others have to rely on the House Stipends that comes from taxes. (probably assigned by the Senate or some Templarate council.) That where the money probably comes from "on the books." Then there is murder, corruption, and betrayal, always great sources of income.
First: Nerf Salt (by adding more roaming toughies)
Second: As above, the stipends are to help drive people into the clan initially, but if you want more coin its time to horn in on someone's territory. Try to cut a deal with a templar to bring in some spice or other things the State might need. Decide its your job to help govern independent trade in the city, so you seek out taxes and protection coin from what small groups pop up. Come up with creative ideas to generate coin, and know that the stipend will always be there.
Best subguild for Nobles: Conartist.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on March 15, 2015, 01:13:37 AM
I always thought that the point OOCly and ICly (though less so) of your House giving you a low stipend was to encourage you (OOCly) to be more involved and (ICly) to be out trying to better your interests (and thusly the House's). Some houses have a business end that provides income: slave sales for Borsail/Winrothol, taxes from the templarate for public works for Jal/Tennessee). Others have to rely on the House Stipends that comes from taxes. (probably assigned by the Senate or some Templarate council.) That where the money probably comes from "on the books." Then there is murder, corruption, and betrayal, always great sources of income.
Only ever once seen slaves sold in-game. Where's the money for all this intrigue and bribery going to come from? Nobles only have token sums to pass around compared to what commoners can make. They have no tangible power of their own and, let's face it, really very few incentives for minions to join up with and get involved with them - I daresay that for the past several years, nobles have basically never directly employed any of the most powerful PCs IG (making Meso a remarkable exception, which is why I guess he keeps getting mentioned), not counting magickers.
The idea that commoners should be funding nobles is patently absurd, but if that's the done thing, fine, and it should be in the documentation that nobles rely on luring simple-minded sorts with knowledge of braies production into their employ as a primary source of income, never once letting the hapless employee realise that they would be much wealthier and better off if they left the noble and worked alone.
You guys are presenting arguments that seem to be based on an
idea of how the game plays rather than how the game actually plays -- namely with people doing a lot of pretending that things are what the docs say they are, even if the IG reality contradicts that.
Admittedly, the cost of operating a Warehouse in game (which is typically a merchant and a couple hunters at best) and the stipend that nobles get (last I checked) were pretty different. I'm not saying a noble should, outright, be able to just afford a warehouse out the gate, but to not even have access to as much coin as a 10day merchant might seem to be a slap in the face?
Quote from: Delusion on March 15, 2015, 01:26:27 AM
Only ever once seen slaves sold in-game. Where's the money for all this intrigue and bribery going to come from? Nobles only have token sums to pass around compared to what commoners can make. They have no tangible power of their own and, let's face it, really very few incentives for minions to join up with and get involved with them - I daresay that for the past several years, nobles have basically never directly employed any of the most powerful PCs IG (making Meso a remarkable exception, which is why I guess he keeps getting mentioned), not counting magickers.
The idea that commoners should be funding nobles is patently absurd, but if that's the done thing, fine, and it should be in the documentation that nobles rely on luring simple-minded sorts with knowledge of braies production into their employ as a primary source of income, never once letting the hapless employee realise that they would be much wealthier and better off if they left the noble and worked alone.
You guys are presenting arguments that seem to be based on an idea of how the game plays rather than how the game actually plays.
Noble HOUSES do not have an endless supply of money, especially for relative nobody noobles.
There were/are still poor nobles throughout the real world.
I was referring to where the houses get the funds to pay out stipends to individual nobles. Borsail (because of the slave trade) should probably have a higher stipend than Fale, for example.
Ways my noble (Fale) made money:
Gambling racket: Ran a gaming tournament, arranged word of mouth only RPTs for "secret" back alley fights, ran a sliding-odds board for arena matches.
Had a long lived grebber start a resource gathering company that I provide with start up funds and political/social backing against GMHs in exchange for first dibs on goods and a cut of the profits.
Selling legit information gathered from spies. Selling misinformation gathered from his own imagination (This stuff was FREE!).
Planted people in the Arm, Byn, and GMHs and tried to help them rise to positions that were useful and profitable to the noble.
Pissed off a lot of other nobles. (this part was the most fun).
Undermined rival noble plots against particular commoner groups gaining loyalty (or at least financial or informative gratuity) from the commoners in questions.
Building a throne of elven sku..... wait, nevermind, that one didn't make him any money. ;)
How monumentally difficult a task for the coin (the 2-3k suggested)?
Working off of the prices I've seen so far, that is:
2.5-3.75 pieces of clothes from an expensive clothes shop (using an 800 coin average).
4-6 pieces of jewelry from a regular jewelry store (at 500 coins each, average outside the really low end 100ish coin stuff).
8-12 pieces of clothes from a regular clothing store (250 coins each, average).
16-24 low end pieces of clothing (at 125 coins each, average).
45-67 bottles of alcohol, depending on alcohol (using a 45 coin baseline).
45-68 cups of tea (at 44 coins/cup)
5.71-8.57 rent payments in the building available for noble employees.
The question is, is that on a par with whatever this epic task is, it seems?
Let nobles earn, merit, or beg more sid as needed from their houses.
Maybe they already can. My last noble was ten years ago.
We changed this around the middle of last year. Noble incomes were increased. The House of the noble reflects the level of income (as does the rank of the noble in some cases). The amount that even the poorest House noble PC gets on a weekly RL basis is still greater than what it was for nearly all nobles prior to review. If nobles need more coin than what they get, they can ask for more, or request it for a particular project, or things like that. There was also a pay restructuring for many clans at the same time to reflect that noble Houses can afford to pay their people more, meaning that noble employees (working for the House) get paid out of funds that don't come directly from their PC noble.
And yes, if a noble were able to lease a warehouse out of the gate, they'd have plenty of money to do so. They're not able to for other reasons, but money is not one of those reasons. Could they pay for a warehouse and have some lackey not associated with the House run it? Yes, they would start with (and make) enough money to do that.
Not to mention there is an entire Tuluki House dedicated to lending and financing. If you need money, ask the Lannisters.
Seriously, nobles have oodles of cash.
request:
I need money to fund a pc's venture to buy a warehouse and start a business. He's paying me 30% of his total income
Answer: Cool beans. Here's more money. Make sure you don't waste it.
Truth: Noble just wanted money to blow on hookers and spice and his family is gonna yell at him later (probably).
So basically wealth is not enough to run plots? If that's the conclusion, then there's something else causing Nobles to hit a roof when they are trying to do something.
Not enough incentive for other PCs to join a House as a minion?
Perhaps red tape from superiors? (preventing a Noble from pursuing a plot, long length of time before plots can happen, etc)
Nobles are not politically powerful enough? (Maybe Templars are too independent from Nobles now?)
I don't know, throwing stuff out there to see what everyone else thinks. (Could probably further discussion apart from financing in a different thread)
Quote from: Semper on March 15, 2015, 12:20:09 PM
I don't know, throwing stuff out there to see what everyone else thinks. (Could probably further discussion apart from financing in a different thread?)
This is what I was trying to get at here - http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49003.0.html
Nobles ddon't get paid a lot
Instead of coded wealth, give them coded power. =)
I think wealth, as a whole, has become less powerful on Armageddon. My at-the-moment appraisal of why...
We can nerf economical sides of the game, we can correct prices...that would all be welcome and good, but I think one of the ways this has changed over time is that PC's, as a whole, are living longer now (this is not verifiable). That means more people able to accumulate wealth, over time, which in turn means to more of it being distributed. It isn't that nobles need more of it, per se, but that with everyone having more of it, it's become less valuable. Purely increasing stipends will only exacerbate that problem, I think, unless there's other changes at the same time. This is why I'm more in favor of an approach that isn't based on nobles having MORE money, but being more entrenched in power-schemes other than wealth, i.e. the functionality of their houses.
As an example, off the top of my head, this can be readily seen in -bounties- on Armageddon. When I started, a five thousand coin bounty was a huge amount. People would -turn- bounty hunter for that kind of price, because they could turn around and make that profit, by itself, into customized items or long-term bribe arrangements. Nowadays, five thousand seems to be the going rate for even small-time bounties...everything else is a relatively piddling amount that will basically get you the 'if I get an opportunity' treatment.
I think nobles should not have unlimited amounts of coin. Merchant houses, I do believe, make more coin than noble houses, which they use to grease the wheels of nobles and templarates, because they are on a set budget. Noble houses aren't enterprising ventures, but nobles may engage in enterprising ventures on their own, which gains them favor from their own house, at least in the older platforms.
So, the contribution to the thread? Higher wealth pyramids don't fix the noble power discussion in itself, I don't think, though it can of course be re-examined to keep them in line with the way of things.
Quote from: Armaddict on March 17, 2015, 07:39:27 PM
Merchant houses, I do believe, make more coin than noble houses
Disagree.
The typical nooble is likely to fall out of their chair when they go to place their first order for an outfit from Kadius
This is realistic though. Historically speaking, having fine clothing was insanely expensive. A nooble should have trouble affording such things right out of the gates.
Quote from: Is Friday on March 17, 2015, 07:43:46 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on March 17, 2015, 07:39:27 PM
Merchant houses, I do believe, make more coin than noble houses
Disagree.
I could be very wrong on that point. It's one of those 'hovering ideas' in the back of my head that came from -somewhere-, but I don't know if that's actually the case. I meant to use the 'I believe' as a tempering statement to show I was open to clarification on it. With my current understanding, Houses are given a set amount based off of their standing with the city, which is then distributed downwards through their hierarchy based off of projects and stipends. Hence, a noble content to live the high life, but not contributing to any House business, has a healthy stipend, but it will be lower than their same-ranked cousin who is running a project that increases the efficiency of their House's duties, etc etc. Merchant Houses, on the other hand, have a constant income based off of profit, with no ceiling imposed by the ones they answer to, and are thus subject to the heavy taxations and fines, and also, as stated, are prone to giving contributions that gain them favor or greater freedom, due to the nobles just -loving- the idea of having more of that money pie.
Quote from: Armaddict on March 17, 2015, 07:39:27 PM
I think nobles should not have unlimited amounts of coin. Merchant houses, I do believe, make more coin than noble houses, which they use to grease the wheels of nobles and templarates, because they are on a set budget. Noble houses aren't enterprising ventures, but nobles may engage in enterprising ventures on their own, which gains them favor from their own house, at least in the older platforms.
Except that the reality within the game is the exact opposite. A Noble PC is at the beck and call of a GMH PC if they want any kind of special item, or throw a party, or do whatever social needs ask of them. On the flip side a GMH merchant PC could probably play the game never bumping into a Noble PC and still be fine. Something else needs to be considered for a Noble's influence when this kind of power imbalance is possible.
Quote from: MeTekillot on March 17, 2015, 07:47:51 PM
The typical nooble is likely to fall out of their chair when they go to place their first order for an outfit from Kadius
Not sure if there's a lot of difference in placed orders vs ones bought at npc shops, but yes, if it's less than 10k, that means 2-5 items would eat up the entire thing, if not exceed it, based on prices from Minia's.
Quote from: Is Friday on March 17, 2015, 07:43:46 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on March 17, 2015, 07:39:27 PM
Merchant houses, I do believe, make more coin than noble houses
Disagree.
Armaddict is actually correct. GMHs are vastly more wealthy than noble houses. However, they do not have the political power that noble houses do.
I wish Nobles would be more interesting in peddling influence or things only they can do for GMHs for coins. Now it seems at times they'd rather just pretend they are equally rich. So they end up being just a very hard to deal with customer.
Quote from: KankWhisperer on March 17, 2015, 08:48:45 PM
I wish Nobles would be more interesting in peddling influence or things only they can do for GMHs for coins. Now it seems at times they'd rather just pretend they are equally rich. So they end up being just a very hard to deal with customer.
"Well, M'lord Borsail, we'd be happy to slash that price in half for you so that you can continue your work in improving the city. If you have your soldiers or ask a templar to break the wheels on that indy merchant's wagon, it would lower their competition and we'd be able to easily afford it. I'll even throw in this free yogurt, with the deal."
Quote from: Armaddict on March 17, 2015, 08:53:07 PM
Quote from: KankWhisperer on March 17, 2015, 08:48:45 PM
I wish Nobles would be more interesting in peddling influence or things only they can do for GMHs for coins. Now it seems at times they'd rather just pretend they are equally rich. So they end up being just a very hard to deal with customer.
"Well, M'lord Borsail, we'd be happy to slash that price in half for you so that you can continue your work in improving the city. If you have your soldiers or ask a templar to break the wheels on that indy merchant's wagon, it would lower their competition and we'd be able to easily afford it. I'll even throw in this free yogurt, with the deal."
Why not ask templar directly?
They should change thread to Suggestion:make nobles more useful
Perhaps they did, but the templar had no immediate need for said merchant, so they had no bargaining chip. It was just a quip, not meant to mean anything in particular. XD
Nobles are supposed to be the ones with tons of political capital. This is best realized when there are a lot of political plots. Encourage/build a lot of politics and nobles become powerful.
Tuluk had a good idea for Nobles being in charge of various sections of the city. The issue is that that was just in the city ... if this power extended further, to the full lands of the respective Kingdoms, this would help.
In the south, for instance, you ought to need Fale's permission to throw a public event, or catch a knife from a Whatsit and/or Militia. You ought to need to graduate Tor's Academy to land an officer job, commoner or noble House alike, or just don't ask to be promoted in the South beyond Corporal. You ought to need Oash's permission to travel with or knock knees with magickers period, or see the blade of the Elites and/or Militia. You ought to need Borsail-distributed licenses, priced by animal type, to hunt in the south, or face the wrath of the Ambers, and/or Militia. All of these are bucks in Nobles' pockets.
There are easy ways to make every House necessary, and it's not even out of character or much of a stretch.
I like Venom's idea.
Oops! Nevermind
Nobles are in a position to extort and create plots which can bring about sums of wealth. They're poor Nobles. They're rich Nobles.
Finding lone / indie PCs and sponsoring them is a great method to make coins or situations that will lead to the payout. In addition it involves other PCs, which is part of the job of being a Noble.
Quote from: Dakota on March 18, 2015, 05:08:25 AM
Nobles are in a position to extort and create plots which can bring about sums of wealth. They're poor Nobles. They're rich Nobles.
Finding lone / indie PCs and sponsoring them is a great method to make coins or situations that will lead to the payout. In addition it involves other PCs, which is part of the job of being a Noble.
In theory yes, but this doesnt work out that way IG, which is why threads like this crop up. If a PC wants to remain independent, there is no incentive for them to help out a Noble and give over their hard-earned coins, since its difficult to get by as it is. Why I (and possibly others) think that Nobles need more wealth/power is so that these independent PCs actually have an incentive to join a Noble House, and Nobles have a resource to fund and generate plots for their minions.
The answer doesnt lie within forcing PCs to join or help Nobles. If a Noble is able to be the plot generator that their role asks of them, then players should naturally be wanting to gravitate toward one or another Noble. Why? Because things are better for their PC ig, their pc gets more influence and involvement into city politics, and they get other interesting characters to interact with, just to name a few... Im not sure if I can say that this happens already, but that would be my kind of ideal political situation.
With more bureaucracy come more cheating bureaucracy. I like venoms idea.
Hunting licenses/taxes/quota never ever ever ever ever ever ever worked in game and it's been attempted a billion times by a billion nobles.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on March 18, 2015, 12:43:56 AM
Tuluk had a good idea for Nobles being in charge of various sections of the city. The issue is that that was just in the city ... if this power extended further, to the full lands of the respective Kingdoms, this would help.
When there were governors in Tuluk it did cover most of Gol Krathu, not just inside Tuluk.
Quote from: Malken on March 18, 2015, 11:36:47 AM
Hunting licenses/taxes/quota never ever ever ever ever ever ever worked in game and it's been attempted a billion times by a billion nobles.
This is true. If anyone playing a Noble thinks they can make it work however then I wouldn't let the past stop you from their plot ideas - besides being a poacher can be fun! I've tried to play a spice smuggler a billion time (well, not quite) but have yet to be truly successful - perhaps the billion and first will become my Avon Barksdale!
(http://brooklynsteez.com/products/square/214970.png)
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on March 18, 2015, 12:43:56 AM
Tuluk had a good idea for Nobles being in charge of various sections of the city. The issue is that that was just in the city ... if this power extended further, to the full lands of the respective Kingdoms, this would help.
In the south, for instance, you ought to need Fale's permission to throw a public event, or catch a knife from a Whatsit and/or Militia. You ought to need to graduate Tor's Academy to land an officer job, commoner or noble House alike, or just don't ask to be promoted in the South beyond Corporal. You ought to need Oash's permission to travel with or knock knees with magickers period, or see the blade of the Elites and/or Militia. You ought to need Borsail-distributed licenses, priced by animal type, to hunt in the south, or face the wrath of the Ambers, and/or Militia. All of these are bucks in Nobles' pockets.
There are easy ways to make every House necessary, and it's not even out of character or much of a stretch.
It did extend further - Qynar were in the city, Striasiri were outside.
The issue with Qynar and Striarsi is that the system itself wasn't all that fleshed out, as I understood it. It kind of became a Noble's purpose to govern the Qynar but they actually had no power to DO anything. They couldn't police, they couldn't open shops or make new buildings. The idea was sound but the application left a lot wanting.
7DV has almost never had an idea I didn't agree with. Rather than a nobles-owning-sections-of-the-city plan, I like the idea that certain house ACTUALLY control certain things, to the level that the Bard's Circle in Tuluk basically owns performances. But a step further.
Remember when half the idea of the Byn, was to train for a year, and suddenly you get a "Yeah, I'm Byn trained" recommendation? Or when working for Salarr for <x> years meant you actually get a HOUSE recommendation? Noble houses could be similar, in 7DVs suggestion. If Oash wants to tame a wild creature, they have to talk to Borsail. If you want to host a party that has more than a few people showing up, better let Fale know. If there are things the Houses are actually RESPONSIBLE for, it gives its Nobles and PCs something to focus on. This would help them make their coin from commoners, and exert their political influence.
7DV has a fair idea, but it's not really all that far off from reality, nor would it really take much/any changes to take it further.
Oash has always had at least an interest in any notable people/organizations dealing with gemmed.
Tor Academy training was (while open) indeed considered a requirement for any soldier of Sergeant rank or above.
Borsail is often in a weird spot due to the staff involvement required for their trade, but capturing living beings was certainly their thing.
Fale... well, if you don't have the current Fale PC helping to plan your party then you run the risk of them attending as a guest.
The difference between specialty and authority is really just how far the current PC nobles want to take it. Nothing is stopping PC nobles from just deciding that PC activities of their affinity require their permission, they just need to be willing to put in the work required to support and enforce it.
To answer the question of the OP. Poor nobles must tax rich unafiliated commoners Which has probably been said.
Despite anything, as PCs or ooc I still feel nobles can do as they wish, anytime, to any of my commoners.
Your junior noble from House Fuckwood can decide he gets to grant permission for all fuckwood trade in the city, but as soon as that junior templar who doesn't like you decides he wants his buddy to be able to buy and sell fuckwood without your permission, you are fucked.
The status quo such as it is results in PC templars that can override and cancel out anything any PC noble attempts to do, because no matter how high or far your PC noble rises, that week old PC templar is still higher on the rung and gets to determine what you can and can't do.
Quote from: HavokBlue on March 18, 2015, 07:21:59 PM
Your junior noble from House Fuckwood can decide he gets to grant permission for all fuckwood trade in the city, but as soon as that junior templar who doesn't like you decides he wants his buddy to be able to buy and sell fuckwood without your permission, you are fucked.
The status quo such as it is results in PC templars that can override and cancel out anything any PC noble attempts to do, because no matter how high or far your PC noble rises, that week old PC templar is still higher on the rung and gets to determine what you can and can't do.
Hi,
I think this is why the suggestion was to make these sorts of things House-related (with a small update to documentation). Sure, the PC templar can override the PC noble, but then the virtual members of the House Fuckwood will be like: Nuh-uh, and then there'd be conflict! Also, I suspect that one reason that the idea of a noble laying claim to some resource outside the city seems to have fallen flat in the past (to judge by a comment or two above) is because it was just that PC - but if the House owned it, then violators (poachers, etc.) would be violating the docs, and so there'd be at least some means to get them, even if the PC in question doesn't have any minions to actually go get them.
To curb that, a PC noble can suck up to the other 2-3 active templars to back him up, maybe? I mean, if that one Templar really doesn't want to play ball, I guess you could pay som--- oh. Right. Hm.
I suggested making Houses responsible for things in an official manner so as to automatically create things for both the nobles and the noble's minions to enforce and provide. It provides a steady income for the noble as well, creating wealth, you understand, like this thread originally discussed. The Elites and Scorpions and Whatsits and Ambers have real jobs now, not just pseudo jobs.
The reason I suggest making these Houses officially responsible rather than just some guy poking his nose into things is that it forces interaction as well, and an oppressive atmosphere, without the Noble having to doom and despair everyone who follows the 'rules'. You know you can speak to the Borsail and/or his Aide for a license to hunt scrab, and it's oppressive, the regulation, but he doesn't have to cower you in order to get your money. It's the law. You know you have to get chased by Ambers if you don't go that route, maybe even get exiled if you go too far. Yeah, you'll line that noble's pockets, or get whatever license you had revoked.
Quote from: MeTekillot on March 18, 2015, 09:54:46 PM
the other 2-3 active templars
(http://www.hercampus.com/sites/default/files/girl%20everyone%20knows_0.JPG)
two blue-robed female templars?
Nobles should just be coin elementalists. They could stand in the road, casting and defiling commoner's pocketbooks.
Quote from: HavokBlue on March 19, 2015, 12:28:50 AM
Quote from: MeTekillot on March 18, 2015, 09:54:46 PM
the other 2-3 active templars
(http://www.hercampus.com/sites/default/files/girl%20everyone%20knows_0.JPG)
(https://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8dpjwGeUD1r6xyrno1_500.gif)
Sorry? What's that? Couldn't hear you over my metal armor.
Quote from: HavokBlue on March 18, 2015, 07:21:59 PMThe status quo such as it is results in PC templars that can override and cancel out anything any PC noble attempts to do, because no matter how high or far your PC noble rises, that week old PC templar is still higher on the rung and gets to determine what you can and can't do.
Wut? Since when?
Quote from: Marauder Moe on March 19, 2015, 10:20:11 AM
Quote from: HavokBlue on March 18, 2015, 07:21:59 PMThe status quo such as it is results in PC templars that can override and cancel out anything any PC noble attempts to do, because no matter how high or far your PC noble rises, that week old PC templar is still higher on the rung and gets to determine what you can and can't do.
Wut? Since when?
A matter of scale should always be kept in mind.
Dinky Noble who no one likes might be easier for a newbie Templar to cockblock.
That Nobles House? Not so much.
I've seen virtual reactions that definitely keep Templars in check. They are powerful. But not powerful enough to shit on every Noble or even a few of them without reaping consequences that they sowed.
Templars in Allanak have definitely been bitch slapped for neglecting their duties to the nobility. Seen it on more than one occasion.
I have had mixed experiences with templars. Some obsessively hover constantly. Others will barely even give your PC the time of day.
I think OOCly in terms of 'laziness' sitting around in the high-end tavern with your feet over a keg is OK, if you're engaging with PCs/underlings and igniting plots. A templar who goes around 'doing business' but doesn't interact with underlings, doesn't drive some scenarios, and doesn't get hands on, isn't.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on March 19, 2015, 10:20:11 AM
Quote from: HavokBlue on March 18, 2015, 07:21:59 PMThe status quo such as it is results in PC templars that can override and cancel out anything any PC noble attempts to do, because no matter how high or far your PC noble rises, that week old PC templar is still higher on the rung and gets to determine what you can and can't do.
Wut? Since when?
Yeah. This was not the case for my Templar. There was little to no way anything political could have happened if I had just gone and tried to stomp out nobility (granted, my immediate face to face encounter was with very, unreasonably long lived nobles) Their actions changed as I started gaining political success, just like it changed adversely as I exposed myself to their ambitions.I like the balance of power, honestly. Without staff favoring a plot line or a particular clan I find zalanthas politics very Athenian, and the PC noble or Templar who wins crowds, can speak eloquently for their cause, or demonstrate some serious martial ability has significant influence. Also, it helps when your rivals do dumb things or die. Sometimes you just get a mix of all of those.
I have rarely relied on money for a noble/Templar role in this game. (I'm pretty new compared to most folks here so eat this with a tasty grain of salt)
Quote from: Aruven on March 19, 2015, 11:54:23 PM
(I'm pretty new compared to most folks here so eat this with a tasty grain of salt)
Get good noop.
Quote from: Aruven on March 19, 2015, 11:54:23 PM
I have rarely relied on money for a noble/Templar role in this game. (I'm pretty new compared to most folks here so eat this with a tasty grain of salt)
Truth to that. There have been times playing a noble/templar where money really was needed, but they're few and far between. Like, I feel like if I -had- 20k in my account normally, it would be more useful, but when you have 10k on average in your account, you feel like you have to hold onto it in case you need it for something down the line, and then you don't use it.
I think it's laughable that people think Nobles aren't wealthy. Theirs more to wealth than coin. They have plenty of all sorts of wealth.
If you need more, RP and plot and extort to get it.
Why should you have to extort and plot to get money you should already have?
Lets be real here, we're talking about coins, not wealth of friends, business, or assets, or clout.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on March 20, 2015, 10:32:55 AM
Why should you have to extort and plot to get money you should already have?
Lets be real here, we're talking about coins, not wealth of friends, business, or assets, or clout.
Not all Nobles are rich where money just flows and you can buy anything you want... Especially those from non-Merchant Houses.
True Story. I once had dinner with a Prince in his Castle outside of Prague. He gave the friend who was invited and us (we were +1's) a tour of his families art collection. This included a Caravaggio -and- an illustrated book of revelations by Albright Dürer...
Then at after Dinner he asked us all to donate money to his family for the upkeep of all his nice shit so he could keep it... (in effect).
Living wealthy and being wealthy are two different things.
PRACTICALLY speaking as a Noble you have more responsibility to start plots an involve others. Need more to buy "shit"? Use lacky PC's, extort and plot to get it, because you're already getting coins by the large as a stipend.
And you should also extort because... Armageddon.
PS: The above (true) story about the Prince could be good motivation in fact and an RP angle to use IG.
If you need coins for a special project, I would like to think your superiors (through staff) will usually at least consider a request for funds - especially if it's something that will bring glory to the House if successful. If you just need some new fancy jewelry you will probably have to pay for it with your stipend.
Hello there, independent merchant. How would you like official backing of House Whatever? Great, all you must do is maintain my fortune. If you behave decently I may even act respectfully towards you!
Problem solved.
Nobles are not as wealthy as this thread makes it seem like they should be. Oh sure, they live lavish lifestyles and enjoy privilege above what any commoner could ever hope for in both city-states. With this lifestyle comes enormous expense. But where is their source of income? Some of the Houses (generally the most powerful ones) have some limited amount of independent income, but the lion's share of their revenues comes from the stipends from their respective city-state. They live on the dole for the most part. Their political power insures they get a hefty stipend from the city-state to live lavishly on, but many of these Houses aren't independently wealthy. They don't own the means of production, they control the political climate where that production takes place. In essence, they're living paycheck to paycheck, but their paychecks are massive.
Have you ever played the game "The Great Dalmuti"? Essentially, it's a card game that simulates social castes. Think of it like Gin, or bridge, or poker...except whoever is in the "Peon" caste must give their best cards to the Great Dalmuti, and the Dalmuti gives their shitty cards to the Peon every round. Whoever wins the round becomes the Great Dalmuti themselves, whoever loses becomes the Peon. It's very hard for the Peon to win, because they're at an inherent disadvantage every round, so generally the Dalmuti stays in their place unless they make some serious error in play.
The noble houses in Zalanthas are like a giant game of the Great Dalmuti. They rely on politics to get a large stipend, and they spend that stipend to try and maintain or gain an advantage in politics. There's a reason the lower noble houses have stayed in their place for so long. There's a reason the top generally stay on the top.
So where do nobles fit in? They are supposed to try and grow or maintain their House's respective political power (which is what maintains their stipend). Nobles are given a certain amount of coin to help them in this effort. If these nobles spend frivolously, on things that don't advance the House's political status, this could give another House a chance of moving up and their own House moving down a rung. This movement could very well be permanent. A junior noble isn't going to be given a huge amount of House resources to play with, because they're untested players of the great game who could fuck things up. If they prove themselves, they might be able to make a case for making bigger plays, but any House that gives its junior nobles a blank check to spend whatever they want is taking a massive risk of permanently damaging their position in the city-state.
TLDR: Nobles might have high incomes, but they're heavily dependent on stipends from the city-state. They're in constant competition with each other for political power in order to get a larger share of those stipends. If they spend their stipend frivolously, they risk losing their position in the city political structure. So while noble's are rich, they have incentives to use that coin wisely...i.e...don't give huge sums of coin to junior nobles unless doing so will advance the House position.
Greater comment on this thread in general:
The problem isn't the noble's stipends are too low, it's that independent merchants, in the past at least, haven't had nearly enough expenses to keep them in check. Taxes, extortion, bribes, unexpected costs...all were vastly under represented in game. The new indie House system the staff developed should greatly rectify this, with massive tax requirements in order to progress, but the political powers in the game should also take an effort to fleece these independent merchants more...they have virtually no power to stop you. Templars, Nobles, when you see an independent merchant walking in with silks from head to toe you should start salivating and start thinking up ways to part them of their wealth at earliest opportunity, unless they bend the knee and pay you your due.
Eh.
I'd actually suspect that the houses DO stockpile wealth in some form, and while a withheld stipend and/or revoked title would be disastrous, they wouldn't become immediately destitute or non-existent (unless they were also immediately murdered).
The noble houses also perform vital services for the city, certainly at least partially in return for said stipends.
I have to figure that someone at least in the upper governments has some concept of economics and uses the noble houses as a means of circulating wealth through the city. From a gameplay perspective, this also seems to be an important function. As such, I'd be very hesitant to decry any spending as "frivolous".
Quote from: Marauder Moe on March 20, 2015, 02:43:45 PM
I'd be very hesitant to decry any spending as "frivolous".
Any spending is definitely not frivolous. Buying yourself a set of nice clothing wouldn't be frivolous, for instance... You need to dress up to your station to properly represent the power behind your name.
Spending 30,000 a year to have a brand new outfit every month however might be frivolous for a junior noble, where wearing a new outfit wouldn't impress enough important people to justify the expense. Could the noble house afford it? Probably. But the other House that decided to use that coin more wisely could advance past the other as a result.
My post was mainly a response to those that think a noble should be able to spend that 30,000 freely, because an indie merchant might have that bank account. The main difference is that indie merchant SHOULD be paying tons of taxes, bribes, and extortion money to make it much more challenging to stay wealthy because they don't have any political muscle behind them. At some point in their career, getting that political backing should be the best financial move to make as an independent, because without that protection the other political powers in the city should be eating them alive.
I dunno. While I suspect, especially these days, that nobles are given some sort of direction from above, I think they are generally free to do with their stipend as they wish. I don't think that's a bad thing ICly or OOCly, even if it does go into a new outfit every month.
(And actually I don't think monthly outfit change/purchase is really all that unreasonable.)
lmao
Next character concept: bounty hunter repo man shadow artist. You /will/ pay your taxes, damn it. (Suddenly, tax shelters and money laundering organizations spring up in Red Storm.) :D
On that note, I know the caste system is a Big Deal but I sort of find it odd that the very practical and sometimes RL-used solution of marry the merchant/gold digging never comes up as an option at all. Awarding crappy titles/invitations to society things to make use of money, too. Maybe that's later era thinking, though.
That's because, virtually, nobles Houses aren't supposed to be poor. They may not be game-wise, either, but in comparison to an industrious ranger or indie merchant, they may as well be.
Another thing to note, and maybe I'm wrong here, but some of the suggestions about nobles and money and frivolity and stuff suggest that nobles are "reasonable" and engaged in a kind of utilitarian project, where their actions are guided by "reasons" (gaining power and respect for their house) -
But!
That sounds more like what commoners are like...
I mean, they're like nobles, right? Some might be utilitarian, but that's sorta the job of their aides - the nobles themselves are so inbred they're probably all idiots and if not idiots at the very least they've been separated from the common problems (like money) for so long...
I should clarify my thoughts. I mean to say: nobles are dandies: they will buy fifteen large worth of tregil-fur hats because they are total dandies. I at least view them as akin to the debauched noble classes of late 17th-century France. Or at least some are. And I could be wrong.
Some are decadent fops, some are schemers of a Machiavellian caliber.
There are some nobles who could teach Machiavelli a thing or two.
One idea to resolve wealth issues for noble PCs is that if they "earn it", they may be granted more stipend as a reward. Senior Nobles should be saying: Hey, if you invest smart and represent us well -- we'll give you titles and money.
With the side promotions I think it's already supported.
And yes, if you have plots that seniors would approve of, staff will front you the sid.
Quote from: Is Friday on March 20, 2015, 03:49:46 PM
One idea to resolve wealth issues for noble PCs is that if they "earn it", they may be granted more stipend as a reward. Senior Nobles should be saying: Hey, if you invest smart and represent us well -- we'll give you titles and money.
With the side promotions I think it's already supported.
And yes, if you have plots that seniors would approve of, staff will front you the sid.
+1
I think that's exactly how it should be, if it isn't already. If a Junior Noble shows they're smart, the House would free up more resources for them, and perhaps even encourage them to get that extra set of silks each month to make it clear to their peers that this person is important.
My suggestion is to make junior nobility relatively poor, make this a cultural fact, that everyone can exploit and benefit from. Codedly they should have enough sid for some small investments but not enough for any real fancy shit. 2k a month is more than enough but even 1k a month should be enough to cover aide to begin with anyways.
Now if they want to stop having to beg their family for money, want to have more things then their siblings, want to have more influence, make their family wealthier or stronger, then they need to go out and sell some of their political savvy. This is basically where I think Tuluk does things right, because its junior nobles seek out and compete for resources called commoners. I think one of those resources they seek out should also be sid too which coincidentally some commoners can make plenty of, if they are given the right protections.
Instead of giving the templar a yearly tax, how about PCs sit down with a noble and work out a deal for protection and political backing, in exchange for a monthly donation and other potential resources to them and their house, if the business grows it would be a win-win situation for both. But no, instead nobility shouldn't give a shit about sid, influence or even acquiring information. They are filthy rich and alot of their aides are sometimes more concerned with getting new silks instead of finding the right people to make friends with in order to seeking out way to gain influence, sid, resoureces or information. Thus all they do is sit around doing nothing all day, and try to get schemes going that may or may not involve the rest of the populace at some point in time.
Yes noble houses are pretty rich, and the each family member is well off for it, but any one individual filthy rich? Na they would need to have earned it. Warren Baffett is also rich, but he still wakes up every morning and goes to work, making deals and investments to make himself and others profit. Again this is one of the areas tuluk truly does right.
You can bribe people all you want but the number of times I've had a bribe upheld is zero.
I once bribed an NPC Templar to arrest a problem employee so my other minions could deal with them. The Templar took my money and then let the problem employee go and laughed in my face.
Similar experiences bribing PCs!
Quote from: HavokBlue on March 20, 2015, 07:01:23 PM
You can bribe people all you want but the number of times I've had a bribe upheld is zero.
I once bribed an NPC Templar to arrest a problem employee so my other minions could deal with them. The Templar took my money and then let the problem employee go and laughed in my face.
Similar experiences bribing PCs!
Weird, that's a rarity for me. Generally people who take bribes and don't follow through don't get bribes very often after that once word gets around.
Quote from: wizturbo on March 20, 2015, 07:09:22 PM
Weird, that's a rarity for me. Generally people who take bribes and don't follow through don't get bribes very often after that once word gets around.
The key is to kill the person after taking their bribe, so they can't live to spread word.
I wouldn't use NPC templars as a way of measuring effectivity of amything. I have only ever seen them be animated as ill-tempered.
Well what I meant was more of a deal, where the noble would benefit monthly, not so much a bride but more of a partnership. Again tuluk is a good example of this half the time, if the noble fails to protect his partison, no one talented will want to work or deal with them in the future, its looks bad on them. And you can bet other nobles will smell blood in the water and at the very least make fun of them, sometimes publicly too.
However Patuk is right on this, when staff animate NPC to deal with a situation they are usually looking for the quickest way to deal with something with the least need for follow up or disruption to the npc. PCs doing this however will not have many more offers and will most likely get knifed in the back someday.
Quote from: Patuk on March 20, 2015, 07:22:46 PM
I wouldn't use NPC templars as a way of measuring effectivity of amything. I have only ever seen them be animated as ill-tempered.
I wonder if Templars are ever in a good mood. It's like they don't LIKE being Templars.
PC Templars are so over-eager for interaction because they gotta pick up slack for all the NPC Templars who just absolutely despise being tasked with anything.
Just once I want to meet a workaholic NPC templar who's earnest about representing the common man. Not even in that goddamn village did I meet a templar six feet up his own ass. :P
Lets not forget nobles can get most people without a blink..save maybe other nobles and their aides with pretty much zero blow back...you get an awesome carriages, houses, and NPC back up from your House that no one else does. That's tangible power to me.
Really too.. money doesn't solve everything if your hated by everyone around you can't get anything done. Totally agreeing with Down Under here. Playing a successful noble or templar requires balance and the ability to get people to work with you towards the same goals. I'm not saying don't make rivals and enemies but you have to allies and they need to be good ones. If your doing that right, You really don't need money. Ive played some very long lived political PCs in my 11 years on Arm . The nobles that I feel have been the most successful and more fun to play around knew how to balance being scarey and powerful with being someone that inspires and you want to actually be around. Its a social role it requires you being able to be social ;)
Thankfully, Staff has managed to tweak the incomes of the noble PCs, depending on their particular house's financial standing.
So, nobles of the same rank (in a particular City) actually get different incomes - as should be IC.
Having said that, each house of course has it's own resources and sources of income - that can be exploited by the noble PCs, to augment their regular income.
If the income of a particular house was raised, the income for all other houses in that City would have to be tweaked proportionately, to maintain the balance and realism.
just make it IC for nobles to forage salt. problem solved.
Quote from: MeTekillot on March 23, 2015, 01:42:07 AM
just make it IC for nobles to forage salt. problem solved.
You mean Nobles are not allowed to forage for salt?
Northern nobles might be allowed to, with whatever it is of them having hobbies or competence or something?
Quote from: Bushranger on March 23, 2015, 01:58:02 AM
Quote from: MeTekillot on March 23, 2015, 01:42:07 AM
just make it IC for nobles to forage salt. problem solved.
You mean Nobles are not allowed to forage for salt?
Only as a hobby.
they are only allowed to ask minions to forage salt
similarly, if a northern noble wants to sneakily get that dagger in their belt, they need to hire a partisan to steal and then plant it in their inventory
I'm not sure if nobles would be discouraged from learning how to steal. It is am art, after all. I am sure a botched theft looks a lot worse than a botched untraceable contract, though.
Quote from: MeTekillot on March 23, 2015, 01:42:07 AM
just make it IC for nobles to forage salt. problem solved.
The salt thing isn't nearly the issue it once was.
Also keep in mind that those salt foragers die pretty often. Sure there are some who live a long time, but you rarely ever see long-lived PC's out foraging salt regularly just to "get them dolla bills".
It might artificially inflate a few newer pc's wealth at times, but, nine out of ten of those PC's end up dead while out in the desert anyways. The ones who go on to live a long time typically are good enough players they don't abuse being able to make fat stacks with salt.
As for nobles, I like the idea of them being ridiculously wealthy. I like the idea of nobles using that ridiculous wealth to CONSTANTLY hire people to do things for them. I want them to think up outlandish, crazy, wild things for people to do for them. Not necessarily stuff they "need", just stuff they "want". Why? Because nobles are ridiculously wealthy and I've always imagined them to be a bit out of touch with "reality". They weren't exactly raised "among the people".
You are a plot starter as a noble. You are a task giver as a noble. You are basically the Dungeon Master of Armageddon, in a lot of ways. Go be an awesome DM to the rest of the playerbase. In my opinion, that is why you have that role and I want you to always have the money to play it well. (I have seen A LOT of them who do EXACTLY this, and I love you all.) :)
What I don't want? Don't be a giant cock and randomly kill independent PC's with your staff-given power and wealth. It isn't "cunning". It isn't "intriguing". You are just being a wanker. You got your power and wealth from staff so you could create plots and tasks, not so you could just randomly have PC's killed.
I've seen some seriously scary nobles/Templars/merchant House family members who I also LOVED to be around. I looked forward to them coming around because I trusted them to play their sponsored roles with their sponsored powers responsibly. I've also been around the ones who equate "killing randoms" as "entertainment". They quickly get avoided and aren't played with anymore. They aren't entertaining. They aren't fun to be around. So, they clan play alone.
tldr: Give nobles a lot of money. Crazy amounts. Then, let them spend it on wild stuff constantly that pulls in lots of people to do things for them. If they aren't constantly doing that....they can "retire to the estate", and someone else can step into that role.
Everybody wants nobles to give people plots and stuff that benefits their awesome adventure, but nobody wants to play a loyal minion.
I like playing loyal minions.
Quote from: Is Friday on March 23, 2015, 12:05:11 PM
Everybody wants nobles to give people plots and stuff that benefits their awesome adventure, but nobody wants to play a loyal useful minion.
I like playing
useful minions. Loyalty ain't too hard to buy. Usefulness is like finding gold.
Yup.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on March 23, 2015, 12:10:27 PM
I like playing loyal minions.
Mine aren't always useful or loyal, but I enjoy minoning.
I think my favorite times playing Arm are acting as a the right hand for a really awesome leader.
With that said, being that right hand is sort of a training exercise for being a really awesome leader someday. It's the MCB circle of life.
Quote from: wizturbo on March 23, 2015, 01:46:55 PM
I think my favorite times playing Arm are acting as a the right hand for a really awesome leader.
Quote from: Barzalene on March 23, 2015, 01:49:34 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on March 23, 2015, 01:46:55 PM
I think my favorite times playing Arm are acting as a the right hand for a really awesome leader.
Honestly, mine are for being their Left Hand, but only because I had a really BALLER Left Hand once. Only joined the clan because, on day one, he got 4 hunters to join in under a RL hour (with no OOC connections).
Too bad I stored for a Templar (which was fun in its own right).
Stop complaining about people going salting for siddies or I won't have anyone to raid anymore!
Personally I think things are a little too expensive. I agree with the people who have suggested that most water publically available (from stores and natural resources) should be grey water and that crappy food and clothes should be a little cheaper so that playing dirt poor commoners don't need to make so much money. That way a noble's offer of fifty to a hundred coins and a skin of clean, fresh water for a days work isn't rejected because it's too low!
TLDR: Don't pay nobles more, pay independents less!
Quote from: Bushranger on March 23, 2015, 08:22:28 PM
TLDR: Don't pay nobles more, pay independents less!
+1
A sword and armor should be a prized and valuable thing, not something you can get after a day's work.
Most of my thoughts have already been summed up here, but I will add there is something we can all do, as players:
If you have a character that is a new PC with a poor background, you can always choose to act like being offered a 400 coin bribe or whatnot is a lot of money.
I wonder if a lot of the pooh-poohing of "low" amounts of money comes from a subconscious bias because we've all played a character at one point or another that basically had coin falling out the ass. I know it's something I had to actually pay attention to when I went straight from playing a wealthy, well-connected PC to playing a brand new one.
This is one of those examples where "being the change" can actually have a pretty decent impact.
Just because you the player know that there are people who go out and forage for ___ then sell it for thousands of coins a day doesn't mean you have to RP that unless your character comes across it firsthand.
If you stick to the docs, RP being wowed at being offered a 400 coin payment by a noble, and come up against some idiot who goes, "lol i make ten times that grebbin salt, buy ale" then every single person in the tavern will choose to RP with you and call that guy an idiot or refuse to believe him.
Peer pressure works.
As I've stated elsewhere, the economy needs work to crush the peon and common caste, not inflation via noble lifting. Make it worth drooling over.
Even if people got paid less, and things made to cost more, the only ones you'd be hurting would be new characters. Eventually you'd get that sword, that piece of armor and then what? Sid would be once again worthless, sure it would take longer and be more annoying to gather up all that sid before you die to a scrab, perhaps but ultimately we'd end up at the same point. However this is why I suggested more tempting money sinks.
Longer lasting, more potent, risk free but expensive spice from kurac.
Allow more people to live in larger apartments but increasing the rent accordingly.
What if stronger, more exotic mounts cost more to stable and maintain.
What if equipment slowly broke down, it would not lose any effectiveness as it broke down or look worn out like shields, but everyone could assess -v and notice roughly how long (longer than a year when brand new) before they should consider buying new gear to replace the old one that would be about to break in two and disappear from their inventory.
All that said, and I kinda hate to admit this but the biggest problem in the south in terms of over abundance of sid is basically salting. It makes too little money when you start out and too much money when you actually get good at forage. I think finding salt and filling up a sack should be made easier but slightly more exhausting so people still take a IC day to manage it. At the same time a certain fat man should stop buying salts. This would make salting good way for new character to afford water and food and make a small bit on the sid for next week in case they don't feel like salting. This makes it easier for newbies to eat and drink and basically survive day to day until something more interesting happens, but not be a money maker for veteran PCs .
Though I'm not sure what kind of negative effects (if any) might emerge as people are forced to find other sources of income in the game. Not to mention there are still plenty of people that can become rich regardless of any changes to salting due to knowledge or guild/sub-guild combo, which is why I think more money cool money sinks is the way to go.
If obsidian is worthless, Templars need to start making it worth something by actively taxing people they meet.
Quote from: Saellyn on March 29, 2015, 03:16:35 AM
If obsidian is worthless, Templars need to start making it worth something by actively taxing people they meet.
The problem here is that obsidian is worthless to Templars too. Again more interesting money sinks for everyone including templars might help the game. That way actually having sid and offering a bribe might actually get you some results.
Like more games? New thread, more games in game to spend your sid on!
Of course money is useless to templars. What does a templar really need? Weapons that are supplied for them? Food they already get? You don't tax for youself, you tax for the state and in order to keep the masses down.
All the pet projects of templars would, I imagine, cost a lot of money.
Buying the support of your superiors or peers to get that promotion, or law passed, or approval to attack that village costs money. It's not something that really plays out in game though, hence my post the other day about Arm politics feeling much more like Cersei vs Tyrion than Tywin vs the Queen of Thorns.