Alright, time to rant about a peeve of mine. Rolling for stats. I seriously can't see a justification for it, in muds or the tabletop that inspired them. First off, the way the system is set up currently, you describe your character (something you're not allowed to adjust on your own) before you have any stats rolled. So, my warrior may appear lithe, built for speed and not power, but his actual stats are fairly unlikely to reflect this, and a single reroll is no guarantee against this. Not only would a point buy system enforce a certain standard of power among players, it would also ensure the guy who wants to play a decently smart warrior doesn't end up penalized for emphasizing the physical, barely giving him a fair chance at average intellect. More importantly, it gives stats a level of agency with the players who choose them. Through point-buy, we could set up a system where every few points you buy towards a maximum, the more expensive they get. So, MinMax the Dwarf can have the highest strength possible, but he has to sacrifice in agility and endurance. A well-balanced character may not have the advantages of specialization, but they're not inept in any capacity, and are above average in most. Furthermore, this move would necessitate an increase in transparency of the actual code of the game, displaying things like class and race modifiers to stats in clear terms. I think if people actually understood this game in a greater capacity, we'd have higher retention. As of now, it feels like an old boys club where the experienced players who understand the code have a distinct advantage that the newbie can't even research to overcome.
I rarely hate my stat rolls so much that they feel unplayable, and if I get my stat order right, and because I know the basics of age and race impact on attributes (all of which are in the helpfiles), I usually get a stat roll that reflects what I described for the character fairly well. Or, I am pleasantly surprised; or, rarely, I am very disappointed.
Skills matter much more to me. I've had to store characters because I realized after playing them a while that the guild and subguild I chose just isn't enjoyable. I would love flexibility in skill assignments, and I think that the "old boys club" is much more important when it comes to this crucial part of character creation.
It's not that some stat ranges are unplayable, it is that the people who get lucky with stat rolls can make you feel like your relatively average or above average roll is worthless compared to the 327th dwarf warrior of X-D who just happened to get 3 exceptionals and an AI. I think that's where you're coming from with this perceived 'old boys club' mentality?
Although a point buy system would definitely have its merits, I'd thought I'd add two things about the current system:
1) You can prioritize stats, so your lithe man built for speed will have agility as his highest stat if you prioritize it. Go agility endurance wisdom strength and you'd be pretty sure to have a weak-but-quick character, unless you were exceptionally lucky on your rolls.
2) Experienced players don't really get an advantage on the stats front. We all roll the same imaginary dice for our stats.
Having said that, I think a points buy system would be interesting.
You're allowed to prioritize your stats at character creation. So, you can set it to prioritize agility first, if you're built for speed, or whatever fits your character concept. You don't actually have to have a completely random roll. And if you want a character that is well-balanced, don't prioritize anything. In my (admittedly anecdotal) experience, you're much more likely to get a balanced character on a completely random roll.
As far as transparency of code, I like that the game isn't code transparent. The old players' old boys code doesn't necessarily understand the code any better than a newbie does. The way races affect stats is clearly listed in the racial helpfiles. To what exactly degree they affect stats is still a mystery to me, and I like it that way.
I like point buy for table top systems because you are sitting around with friends usually, and leaves a fair balanced aspect in terms of everyone being similarly powered and what the DM is going to expect. Fairness however isn't really what I expect in armageddon.
I'd hate to see a point buy system and have most every warrior end up with similar strength or agility acrossed the board, every merchant maxing wisdom, etc etc. There just wouldn't be any variance in stats at that point.
Sure it's sometimes not fair, but out of twenty plus some characters I can think of only one character that had more then one stat that wasn't just caused by age, and almost all my characters have been before prioritization and rerolls if memory serves me correctly.
Would stat points make it impossible to ever have all my stats be absolutely incredible?
Maybe point buy could be optional for people who don't have the cajones to use the random roll system
Quote from: MeTekillot on January 10, 2015, 01:06:52 PM
Maybe point buy could be optional for people who don't have the cajones to use the random roll system
Oh, I'd hate for there to be -more- options at Chargen...
if you picked random rolling you wouldn't get anymore options you'd just get filtered through as usual
Delted.
yo or you could read what i just said and respond to that maybe? if there aren't any more options then what's the downside
Not to digress or be overcynical, but I have sometimes wondered to what extent stats dictate how long a character will be played.
That is, say you have a mediocre stat roll. Will this determine the likelihood of the character being retired or put into exceptionally dangerous circumstances by the player?
I quickly went through the first X or so logs on the website and compiled a list of the stat listings that I found:
Your strength is very good, your agility is extremely good,
your wisdom is above average, and your endurance is exceptional.
Your strength is extremely good, your agility is very good,
your wisdom is average, and your endurance is exceptional.
Your strength is above average, your agility is extremely good,
your wisdom is average, and your endurance is above average.
Your strength is very good, your agility is extremely good,
your wisdom is above average, and your endurance is exceptional.
Your strength is average, your agility is extremely good,
your wisdom is extremely good, and your endurance is below average.
Your strength is absolutely incredible, your agility is absolutely incredible,
your wisdom is absolutely incredible, and your endurance is absolutely incredible.
Your strength is very good, your agility is average,
your wisdom is good, and your endurance is poor.
Your strength is good, your agility is below average,
your wisdom is poor, and your endurance is above average.
Your strength is very good, your agility is good,
your wisdom is poor, and your endurance is good.
Guess which one is Tektolnes? :) Guess which ones are driven into suicidal circumstances by their player in the log? Otherwise, there seems to be a trend of what I would describe as "really good stats" in these log-worthy characters.
Of course sampling stats from the logs on the website is pisspoor statistics for a number of reasons, but having a mediocre stat roll can be refreshing. You can play your character like a rental car, and who cares if you roll it off a cliff?
[edit: accidentally listed a stat listing twice]
I've found that the characters of mine that live longest have had the worst stat rolls. My theory is that as soon as I get a PC with good stats, I just want to run off and kill things.
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I would love a point-buy system. I like Metekillots idea of having both.
I've never had a natural AI. A few spice-induced ones but otherwise no. Most of my characters' stats are decent, but not impressive.
Mostly I get things like this:
Your strength is above average, your agility is good,
your wisdom is very good, and your endurance is extremely good.
As long as my ranger doesn't have to settle for a really crappy 1-room bow, and my merchant can carry things to market without tipping over, and my Luir's-born character can enjoy a few spice ales without passing out, I don't really worry TOO much about stats. There are definitely game-wreckers for me, but so far I haven't hit one that was totally unplayable.
I'm like moderately sure that guild has an impact on stats, because I've had warriors with prioritized wisdom who got strength and endurance that was better than their wisdom both on the original and the reroll.
Quote from: MeTekillot on January 10, 2015, 05:46:38 PM
I'm like moderately sure that guild has an impact on stats, because I've had warriors with prioritized wisdom who got strength and endurance that was better than their wisdom both on the original and the reroll.
It does, and age does as well. I've only gotten an AI with a young character's agility myself.
I'd be in favour of point buy if it was optional, and if the total point buy number total was less than what you could potentially get from rolling randomly, as a tradeoff for being able to customize.
As it is, we've now got both prioritization and a reroll (and a reroll undo!) - as was pointed out, back in the day there was neither. It's pretty tough to get totally unplayable stats or have them totally inimical to one's concept these days.
Subguild, height and weight affect stats, too. Even the clan you're in affects stats, though the only thing I've seen staff note about this is them joking about the byn positively trashing a character's wisdom score.
Quote from: Patuk on January 10, 2015, 07:15:19 PM
Subguild, height and weight affect stats, too. Even the clan you're in affects stats, though the only thing I've seen staff note about this is them joking about the byn positively trashing a character's wisdom score.
Are you sure that was a joke? :P
What I would like is the ability to nudge a stat up and down within a certain range.
-You can pull back from 'Extremely Good' and above, but you can't add past it. Thereby making the 'random roll' still appealing, to get the high-highs.
-You can pull a VG down to a Good, and nudge a below average/average up to good.
Something like that.
Here's what I wouldn't like about a point buy system: people would suddenly know what the ranges stand for. You would put 12 points in strength, and then get into the game and suddenly just have it say 'good' strength. At that point you might as well just start showing the point values. And it wouldn't sit well with me.
Agreed with Valeria. I like that we have adjective values to our stats. It's much more conducive to RP to know that I have excellent endurance, rather than +20. In my mind, +20 means nothing. Excellent is - excellent. I can roleplay excellent. I can't RP +20.
I got ai strength and exeptional endurance on a dwarf.
I'm fine with the current system. It's 10x better than it was 10 years ago when you couldn't even prioritize. So you'd roll up "the gargantuan, muscle-bound man" and get high agi and wis. As it is now, I may not get to pick exactly what my stats will be, but I get to define what my character is best and worst, and it is always made so.
I wouldn't mind an optional point buy. As Metek said, it's really just one extra keystroke in chargen: "How would you like to assign stats? R - Random. P - Point Buy." And I don't think it would need to break the non-transparency of the underlying stats. The stats are all relative (good str on a dwarf > good str on a human), but you could still point buy for the level. Start at avg, and pay 1 point to raise to above average, 2 more points to raise to good, 3 more points to go very good, etc.
Quote from: chrisdcoulombe on January 11, 2015, 05:08:50 AM
I got ai strength and exeptional endurance on a dwarf. a bulldozer.
FTFY.
I had that roll once on a dwarf who was focused on exterminating Kryl. He went down in a fight against 3 of them in the forest, and actually managed (while completely paralyzed) to hold them off for over 5 irl minutes. He kept parrying for some reason. Actually killed one while paralyzed because it was low HP before he dropped, and his slashing bracer kept going off. It was a pretty awesome death, honestly.
Current system kind of sucks. Prioritization is an improvement, but the randomness is counter-intuitive to spending time writing a character background but being forced to rely on dice for stats. Often I've wanted a character to be built stat-wise in a certain manner that was rendered worthless after the stat roll.
What I'd like to see is a point-buy system with random modifiers based off of account karma level and/or account age. Using a karma based system for example, the lower karma levels would be more stable but and not allow for much deviation in stat rolls. This is to provide a safer, more predictable experience for newer players. Higher level accounts would have a growing, random modifier assigned to the account for 30 days at a time. This variable is revealed before character generation so that the player can write a description and background that match the detrimental or favorable modifier.
For example: Imagine the average human has 4 stats with 10 points and at that level each is considered "good". At each increment in karma players get a +1/-1 modifier chance that they are informed of during character generation. This value stays for 30 days. At 5 karma this gives Amos the human the chance to have as many as 45 points or as low as 35. This variation, when combined with class, race and age penalties/bounses would allow for stat spreads similar to what we see today. However, each player is in control of how the points are spent.
The 30 day cooldown on modifiers mitigates suicide for stat and the karma spread ensures more stability for newer players while offering a more predictable challenge to more experienced players.
I would like to see some changes myself. I'd lean towards something where you can use CGP to buy stats bonuses before you roll. I wouldn't want to get rid of the random rolls entirely, it adds fun to the character creation process and creates a nice bell curve of PC strengths and weaknesses. A point buy system would mean tons of max strength warriors, max agility thieves, etc. It would be super boring, and predictable.
Basically I'd support any change where the path of least resistance for getting good stats is applying for it, similar to extended subguilds and skill boosts, rather than relying solely on luck. Not to say there won't be lucky people out there, that's still a cool thing that shouldn't go away... But for someone like me, whose only played 22 character in ~14 years...its statistically extremely unlikely that I'll be seeing a high stat character anytime soon. Having another option, or a limited number of higher probability rolls would be great for people who tend to have long lived characters.
Just thought I'd revisit this with a quick comment we'll keep to anecdotal evidence to not break any rules. A while back, after posting this thread, I rolled up a character. This character was intended to be a stealthy fighter guy, from the streets with a mean right hook. I simply prioritized strength, no order after that given, and picked a class with a bonus to agility. What I was expecting with these parameters was a fairly good strength score, an above average agility, maybe taking a hit in one or both of the remainder, and I'd be willing to reroll to make my stats a little more average because I actually tend to like my characters to not be too 'deficient' in anything unless it fits the concept. I'm not the guy that puts Charisma at 7.
What I got was a slightly above average strength, milquetoast speed, slightly below average endurance and... absolutely incredible wisdom? What? I'm serious, I rerolled and I couldn't get out of being a certified genius. Physically, this isn't what I signed up to play. Mentally, this absolutely isn't what I wanted to play. How does my uneducated character even represent that? Incredible street smarts? I don't talk like a street rat, despite being that? I get that being poor doesn't mean I'm unintelligent, but I didn't set out to play a secret philosopher. I bring this up as the prime example of the failure of random generation: I don't get to play the character I wanted to play. If I want to play the physically mighty man, and the stats say no, I am breaking the rules by playing him as such. Worse, I'm forced to play 'average joe' concept as a Zalanthan Stephen Hawking. To act foolish, without it being an act, would be breaking my character's assigned nature, except in rare circumstances. Maybe I wanted to be the dumb brute this time around. Now I'm the 'super sekret not-really dumb but acts like it to throw people off' brand of cliche. All I know is I'm lucky I made my character of the 'compact muscle' sort. If I had said I was a body builder in my desc, then rolled poorly on strength, I'd be breaking the rules because of a wrong guess.
You don't have to act smart with high wisdom and you don't have to act dumb with low wisdom. Most of my character's are a little smarter than the average scrab, no matter their wisdom.
If your hulking warrior has average strength, you can totally roleplay him as having suffered a past injury that doesn't let him utilize those big manly muscles. Or store him. You're not forced to play a role with stats you don't like in any circumstance. You are totally allowed to store and roll up the same concept and almost word for word and hope for more appropriate stats. There are no rules against that. It may be somewhat cheesy and powergaming, but if stats are that important to you, then go ahead and do it.
An ideal system would allow for either the random roll we get now, or a replacement of prioritizing with point allocation. As others have said, rather than a system for actually allocating points, a system for using points to raise ranges would preserve the idea of not knowing exactly how many points you have on your character's stats.
I agree that prioritization hasn't worked out exactly as you would imagine it should. It helps, but a manual system would be nicer.
Your strength is average, your agility is average,
your wisdom is average, and your endurance is average.
You have 3 points left to allocate to your character's stats.
> str +1
Your strength is above average, your agility is average,
your wisdom is average, and your endurance is average.
You have 2 points left to allocate to your character's stats.
> wisdom -1
Your strength is above average, your agility is average,
your wisdom is below average, and your endurance is average.
You have 3 points left to allocate to your character's stats.
> str +3
Your strength is exceptional, your agility is average,
your wisdom is below average, and your endurance is average.
You have 0 points left to allocate to your character's stats.
If you are finished, enter q to continue with the character creation process.
If we had a point allocation system, I think that all characters should be rolled at either average or above average, no more and certainly no less.
If you wanted those wonder stats which allow you to have a number of exceptionals or incredibles or very goods, you'd stick with the random roll.
Quote from: Asche on June 08, 2015, 02:39:52 AM
Just thought I'd revisit this with a quick comment we'll keep to anecdotal evidence to not break any rules. A while back, after posting this thread, I rolled up a character. This character was intended to be a stealthy fighter guy, from the streets with a mean right hook. I simply prioritized strength, no order after that given, and picked a class with a bonus to agility. What I was expecting with these parameters was a fairly good strength score, an above average agility, maybe taking a hit in one or both of the remainder, and I'd be willing to reroll to make my stats a little more average because I actually tend to like my characters to not be too 'deficient' in anything unless it fits the concept. I'm not the guy that puts Charisma at 7.
What I got was a slightly above average strength, milquetoast speed, slightly below average endurance and... absolutely incredible wisdom? What? I'm serious, I rerolled and I couldn't get out of being a certified genius. Physically, this isn't what I signed up to play. Mentally, this absolutely isn't what I wanted to play. How does my uneducated character even represent that? Incredible street smarts? I don't talk like a street rat, despite being that? I get that being poor doesn't mean I'm unintelligent, but I didn't set out to play a secret philosopher. I bring this up as the prime example of the failure of random generation: I don't get to play the character I wanted to play. If I want to play the physically mighty man, and the stats say no, I am breaking the rules by playing him as such. Worse, I'm forced to play 'average joe' concept as a Zalanthan Stephen Hawking. To act foolish, without it being an act, would be breaking my character's assigned nature, except in rare circumstances. Maybe I wanted to be the dumb brute this time around. Now I'm the 'super sekret not-really dumb but acts like it to throw people off' brand of cliche. All I know is I'm lucky I made my character of the 'compact muscle' sort. If I had said I was a body builder in my desc, then rolled poorly on strength, I'd be breaking the rules because of a wrong guess.
If that occurs, you can ask staff to adjust it or fix it. Race matters too, it's relative to race. AI wisdom on a half giant doesn't make it a genius.
Is asking staff to literally switch things around okay? I assumed not.
Quote from: Jihelu on June 08, 2015, 05:12:03 AM
Is asking staff to literally switch things around okay? I assumed not.
If that's the circumstance exactly as described, then yes.
Staff have said they only really do stat change requests if the character is unplayable, such as across the board poors or something. You may be able to submit one to have your stats lowered?
With stat priorities, reroll, and reroll undo, it's very difficult to get an unplayable character (and that is basically limited to one guild). But it's still possible to get an underwhelming one. I personally, just go fully random and roll with it.
Literally unplayable is basically limited to merchants with abysmal agility, right?
Not even. You can craft with objects laid inside a room just fine.
I know there are so many extremely experienced players & IMMs around, but point buy system requires some hard choices to be made. In D&D or RPG computer game stats' importance is almost equal. In ARM, it's hard to say it. I think, values of each stat for each guild should be different. Also for each guild and race, maybe there should be some highest, and lowerst limit for each stat.
Keep in mind that age, guild choice and racial choice both will affect stats. If you want staff to look into your situation, please ask via request.
I can say that at a glance, things probably aren't as bad as indicated.
Quote from: Down Under on January 10, 2015, 08:43:46 PM
What I would like is the ability to nudge a stat up and down within a certain range.
-You can pull back from 'Extremely Good' and above, but you can't add past it. Thereby making the 'random roll' still appealing, to get the high-highs.
-You can pull a VG down to a Good, and nudge a below average/average up to good.
Something like that.
I'm a big fan of putting a cap on stats you could buy with a customizable system, or perhaps even using a standard array (You get An ExG, a Good, an Average and a Below average unmodified. Put them where you want them, then let the system modify appropriately). There are some roles that don't really need anything other than wisdom which would be unfairly biased by an unadulterated point buy. If you keep the really high stats off limits for customizable options you'll drastically reduce potential abuse in addition to motivating random rolls if you have some sort of ideological commitment to that.
The only unplayable stat roll I've had was a d-elf ranger rolled at the minimum age, with poor strength...I don't think I ever actually damaged anything while hunting with him. Pretty sure every single attack he ever landed just bounced. Thankfully, he got legitimately carru'ed early on.
I had a half-giant with poor agility and a 1-item inventory space...which was pretty annoying, but I managed.
I'd prefer a point-buy system with a random element.
E.g. you roll for total stat points, maybe get a reroll and a reroll undo or whatever.
You'd still get PCs with awesome stats, and PCs with trashy stats, but you could at least make sure the stat that's most important to the character concept isn't garbage.
Quote from: Synthesis on June 08, 2015, 12:26:46 PM
The only unplayable stat roll I've had was a d-elf ranger rolled at the minimum age, with poor strength...I don't think I ever actually damaged anything while hunting with him. Pretty sure every single attack he ever landed just bounced. Thankfully, he got legitimately carru'ed early on.
Heh, sounds like an Arabeti kid I had a few years ago.. That kid would just constantly bounce on everything he tried to hit.. It was fun for a couple hours or so. Carru'ed.
I like random stats...Having that horribly hilariously weak pc or stupid one is part of the fun for me. Nothing like getting 6 on your INT score( Half-orc here I come). I frequently have the point buy argument with my table top gaming group. No its not fair and sometimes it sucks but it keeps everyone from feeling vanilla and boring to me. I do wish sometimes that we could roll our stats before writing up the initial background.
Quote from: Bast on June 08, 2015, 05:25:15 PM
I like random stats...Having that horribly hilariously weak pc or stupid one is part of the fun for me. Nothing like getting 6 on your INT score( Half-orc here I come). I frequently have the point buy argument with my table top gaming group. No its not fair and sometimes it sucks but it keeps everyone from feeling vanilla and boring to me. I do wish sometimes that we could roll our stats before writing up the initial background.
That argument's been going on for years amongst various gaming tables I imagine. Always been pretty firmly on the "fair stats for everyone" side myself, particularly as a GM. But I'm not going to get up at a podium and start thumping my stat's textbook while I lecture from on high (though this is mostly because I don't want to build a podium). It's a taste issue, and I'll grudgingly acknowledge that now that Armageddon has been attracting people for two decades who, at minimum, grudgingly accept random stats generation, then likely the player population is pretty thoroughly skewed towards that preference as a population.
Quote from: Synthesis on June 08, 2015, 12:26:46 PM
I had a half-giant with poor agility and a 1-item inventory space...which was pretty annoying, but I managed.
This is pretty rough. Hell, anything less than 4 inventory space borders on a major inconvenience in my experience. That must have been hell on you, with all the typing to drop stuff, or stow stuff, before getting a ticket out, or trying to pay for something.
Quote from: Narf on June 08, 2015, 05:46:43 PM
Quote from: Bast on June 08, 2015, 05:25:15 PM
I like random stats...Having that horribly hilariously weak pc or stupid one is part of the fun for me. Nothing like getting 6 on your INT score( Half-orc here I come). I frequently have the point buy argument with my table top gaming group. No its not fair and sometimes it sucks but it keeps everyone from feeling vanilla and boring to me. I do wish sometimes that we could roll our stats before writing up the initial background.
That argument's been going on for years amongst various gaming tables I imagine. Always been pretty firmly on the "fair stats for everyone" side myself, particularly as a GM. But I'm not going to get up at a podium and start thumping my stat's textbook while I lecture from on high (though this is mostly because I don't want to build a podium). It's a taste issue, and I'll grudgingly acknowledge that now that Armageddon has been attracting people for two decades who, at minimum, grudgingly accept random stats generation, then likely the player population is pretty thoroughly skewed towards that preference as a population.
In my experience, random virtually never works for tabletops, unless everyone rolls great. The guy that rolled shit is usually a bit sore about it, and since sessions are usually over the long term, once a week, and because unlike in Armageddon, player death is less common in a group of 4-6...it just ends up becoming more of an issue. A random system works fine for Armageddon. But when you're one of a small handful of people that the story is revolving around, and stuck with that character for years, then it makes less sense.
But I do like the element of randomness and variety. In my own tabletop games, I've often presented various conditions to the players, where they might start much older, or much younger, or in positions of greater or lesser experience, in return for randomized bonuses. They can't bitch if they roll low, since it's all a 'cherry' on top, and it requires drawbacks as well. But they usually end up pretty diversified while not feeling as if they got fucked, at the end. (also, our group typically eschews games with 'levels' in them, and even converted D&D to a levelless system once).
Just wanted to say I strongly oppose CGP stat boosts. High karma or even moderate karma players such as myself have enough advantages with skill boosts/ more races/classes.
Never had a stat roll I'd consider bad before. My last PCs have been biased towards amazing but I don't roll many. I doubt I'm just lucky. What are people expecting?
I never liked the idea of point buy. It seems geared toward min-maxing and gaming the system. All of my experience with point by is in tabletop games, where I really despise it. I have also never had poor stats "ruin" a concept, though I've had to modify a couple of concepts to deal with unexpectedly poor stats. Do you know what's worse than a delf with poor strength? A dwarf with poor wisdom. I've played both and ended up enjoying the shit out of them.
But as long as it's optional, whatever.
All I can say is that I'm not a min-maxer. Also, I think you guys are looking at it as if point buy means a flat 1-to-1 value. Thats not how it generally works. Maxxing strength should take nearly every point in my pool. In Pathfinder, 10 being the average for an ability score, I'd need to spend 17 of my 20 points to raise strength to an 18. I'd only need to spend 5 to bring it to a 14. Now, Arm has less stats total, so the numbers work out a bit different, but the idea is that I can be a bit above average in every respect, or specialize, or focus on the two stats I like. I don't need to dump stats, and I have complete control over the character I want to play. I don't think stats will be as streamlined and monotonous as you think they'll be. But, with that in mind, I don't remember many powerful warriors who didn't all spec max height for the crunch benefits. So long as my concept makes sense in the world and isn't wildly overpowered (which, by definition with point buy, I couldn't be), theres no reason to have simple statistical chance make me alter my concept. Most of the recommendations given seem to contradict documentation. I can reroll the exact character aspiring to different stats? That seems the exact opposite of the rules, as well as defeating the supposed point of random stats. Stat reallocation is also something only recommended to even apply to in exceptional circumstances. What exactly is the harm in implementing a point buy system? I'm not asking for the elimination of random rolls. Some people love that. I think those people are weird.
I have yet to see this song in the "character theme song" thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjedLeVGcfE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjedLeVGcfE)