Point Buy

[Asche]

Alright, time to rant about a peeve of mine. Rolling for stats. I seriously can't see a justification for it, in muds or the tabletop that inspired them. First off, the way the system is set up currently, you describe your character (something you're not allowed to adjust on your own) before you have any stats rolled. So, my warrior may appear lithe, built for speed and not power, but his actual stats are fairly unlikely to reflect this, and a single reroll is no guarantee against this. Not only would a point buy system enforce a certain standard of power among players, it would also ensure the guy who wants to play a decently smart warrior doesn't end up penalized for emphasizing the physical, barely giving him a fair chance at average intellect. More importantly, it gives stats a level of agency with the players who choose them. Through point-buy, we could set up a system where every few points you buy towards a maximum, the more expensive they get. So, MinMax the Dwarf can have the highest strength possible, but he has to sacrifice in agility and endurance. A well-balanced character may not have the advantages of specialization, but they're not inept in any capacity, and are above average in most. Furthermore, this move would necessitate an increase in transparency of the actual code of the game, displaying things like class and race modifiers to stats in clear terms. I think if people actually understood this game in a greater capacity, we'd have higher retention. As of now, it feels like an old boys club where the experienced players who understand the code have a distinct advantage that the newbie can't even research to overcome.

[Harmless]

I rarely hate my stat rolls so much that they feel unplayable, and if I get my stat order right, and because I know the basics of age and race impact on attributes (all of which are in the helpfiles), I usually get a stat roll that reflects what I described for the character fairly well. Or, I am pleasantly surprised; or, rarely, I am very disappointed.

Skills matter much more to me. I've had to store characters because I realized after playing them a while that the guild and subguild I chose just isn't enjoyable. I would love flexibility in skill assignments, and I think that the "old boys club" is much more important when it comes to this crucial part of character creation.

[MeTekillot]

It's not that some stat ranges are unplayable, it is that the people who get lucky with stat rolls can make you feel like your relatively average or above average roll is worthless compared to the 327th dwarf warrior of X-D who just happened to get 3 exceptionals and an AI. I think that's where you're coming from with this perceived 'old boys club' mentality?

[BleakOne]

Although a point buy system would definitely have its merits, I'd thought I'd add two things about the current system:

1) You can prioritize stats, so your lithe man built for speed will have agility as his highest stat if you prioritize it. Go agility endurance wisdom strength and you'd be pretty sure to have a weak-but-quick character, unless you were exceptionally lucky on your rolls.

2) Experienced players don't really get an advantage on the stats front. We all roll the same imaginary dice for our stats.

Having said that, I think a points buy system would be interesting.

[valeria]

You're allowed to prioritize your stats at character creation.  So, you can set it to prioritize agility first, if you're built for speed, or whatever fits your character concept.  You don't actually have to have a completely random roll.  And if you want a character that is well-balanced, don't prioritize anything.  In my (admittedly anecdotal) experience, you're much more likely to get a balanced character on a completely random roll.

As far as transparency of code, I like that the game isn't code transparent.  The old players' old boys code doesn't necessarily understand the code any better than a newbie does.  The way races affect stats is clearly listed in the racial helpfiles.  To what exactly degree they affect stats is still a mystery to me, and I like it that way.

[creeper386]

I like point buy for table top systems because you are sitting around with friends usually, and leaves a fair balanced aspect in terms of everyone being similarly powered and what the DM is going to expect. Fairness however isn't really what I expect in armageddon.

I'd hate to see a point buy system and have most every warrior end up with similar strength or agility acrossed the board, every merchant maxing wisdom, etc etc. There just wouldn't be any variance in stats at that point.

Sure it's sometimes not fair, but out of twenty plus some characters I can think of only one character that had more then one stat that wasn't just caused by age, and almost all my characters have been before prioritization and rerolls if memory serves me correctly.

[Molten Heart]

Would stat points make it impossible to ever have all my stats be absolutely incredible?

[MeTekillot]

Maybe point buy could be optional for people who don't have the cajones to use the random roll system

[nauta]

Maybe point buy could be optional for people who don't have the cajones to use the random roll system

Oh, I'd hate for there to be -more- options at Chargen...

[MeTekillot]

if you picked random rolling you wouldn't get anymore options you'd just get filtered through as usual

[Barsook]

Delted.

[MeTekillot]

yo or you could read what i just said and respond to that maybe? if there aren't any more options then what's the downside

[CodeMaster]

Not to digress or be overcynical, but I have sometimes wondered to what extent stats dictate how long a character will be played.

That is, say you have a mediocre stat roll. Will this determine the likelihood of the character being retired or put into exceptionally dangerous circumstances by the player?

I quickly went through the first X or so logs on the website and compiled a list of the stat listings that I found:

Code Select Expand


Your strength is very good, your agility is extremely good,
 your wisdom is above average, and your endurance is exceptional.

Your strength is extremely good, your agility is very good,
 your wisdom is average, and your endurance is exceptional.

Your strength is above average, your agility is extremely good,
 your wisdom is average, and your endurance is above average.

Your strength is very good, your agility is extremely good,
 your wisdom is above average, and your endurance is exceptional.

Your strength is average, your agility is extremely good,
 your wisdom is extremely good, and your endurance is below average.

Your strength is absolutely incredible, your agility is absolutely incredible,
your wisdom is absolutely incredible, and your endurance is absolutely incredible.

Your strength is very good, your agility is average,
 your wisdom is good, and your endurance is poor.

Your strength is good, your agility is below average,
 your wisdom is poor, and your endurance is above average.

Your strength is very good, your agility is good,
 your wisdom is poor, and your endurance is good.


Guess which one is Tektolnes?  Guess which ones are driven into suicidal circumstances by their player in the log?  Otherwise, there seems to be a trend of what I would describe as "really good stats" in these log-worthy characters.

Of course sampling stats from the logs on the website is pisspoor statistics for a number of reasons, but having a mediocre stat roll can be refreshing.  You can play your character like a rental car, and who cares if you roll it off a cliff?

[edit: accidentally listed a stat listing twice]

[nauta]

I've found that the characters of mine that live longest have had the worst stat rolls.  My theory is that as soon as I get a PC with good stats, I just want to run off and kill things.
h

[RogueGunslinger]

I would love a point-buy system. I like Metekillots idea of having both.

[Lizzie]

I've never had a natural AI. A few spice-induced ones but otherwise no. Most of my characters' stats are decent, but not impressive.

Mostly I get things like this:

Your strength is above average, your agility is good,
  your wisdom is very good, and your endurance is extremely good.

As long as my ranger doesn't have to settle for a really crappy 1-room bow, and my merchant can carry things to market without tipping over, and my Luir's-born character can enjoy a few spice ales without passing out, I don't really worry TOO much about stats. There are definitely game-wreckers for me, but so far I haven't hit one that was totally unplayable.

[MeTekillot]

I'm like moderately sure that guild has an impact on stats, because I've had warriors with prioritized wisdom who got strength and endurance that was better than their wisdom both on the original and the reroll.

[IntuitiveApathy]

I'm like moderately sure that guild has an impact on stats, because I've had warriors with prioritized wisdom who got strength and endurance that was better than their wisdom both on the original and the reroll.

It does, and age does as well.  I've only gotten an AI with a young character's agility myself.

I'd be in favour of point buy if it was optional, and if the total point buy number total was less than what you could potentially get from rolling randomly, as a tradeoff for being able to customize.

As it is, we've now got both prioritization and a reroll (and a reroll undo!) - as was pointed out, back in the day there was neither.  It's pretty tough to get totally unplayable stats or have them totally inimical to one's concept these days.

[Patuk]

Subguild, height and weight affect stats, too. Even the clan you're in affects stats, though the only thing I've seen staff note about this is them joking about the byn positively trashing a character's wisdom score.

[BleakOne]

Subguild, height and weight affect stats, too. Even the clan you're in affects stats, though the only thing I've seen staff note about this is them joking about the byn positively trashing a character's wisdom score.

Are you sure that was a joke? 

[Down Under]

What I would like is the ability to nudge a stat up and down within a certain range.

-You can pull back from 'Extremely Good' and above, but you can't add past it. Thereby making the 'random roll' still appealing, to get the high-highs.

-You can pull a VG down to a Good, and nudge a below average/average up to good.

Something like that.

[valeria]

Here's what I wouldn't like about a point buy system: people would suddenly know what the ranges stand for.  You would put 12 points in strength, and then get into the game and suddenly just have it say 'good' strength.  At that point you might as well just start showing the point values.  And it wouldn't sit well with me.

[Lizzie]

Agreed with Valeria. I like that we have adjective values to our stats. It's much more conducive to RP to know that I have excellent endurance, rather than +20. In my mind, +20 means nothing. Excellent is - excellent. I can roleplay excellent. I can't RP +20.

[chrisdcoulombe]

I got ai strength and exeptional endurance on a dwarf.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I'm fine with the current system. It's 10x better than it was 10 years ago when you couldn't even prioritize. So you'd roll up "the gargantuan, muscle-bound man" and get high agi and wis. As it is now, I may not get to pick exactly what my stats will be, but I get to define what my character is best and worst, and it is always made so.

I wouldn't mind an optional point buy. As Metek said, it's really just one extra keystroke in chargen: "How would you like to assign stats? R - Random. P - Point Buy." And I don't think it would need to break the non-transparency of the underlying stats. The stats are all relative (good str on a dwarf > good str on a human), but you could still point buy for the level. Start at avg, and pay 1 point to raise to above average, 2 more points to raise to good, 3 more points to go very good, etc.

I got ai strength and exeptional endurance on a dwarf. a bulldozer.

FTFY.

I had that roll once on a dwarf who was focused on exterminating Kryl. He went down in a fight against 3 of them in the forest, and actually managed (while completely paralyzed) to hold them off for over 5 irl minutes. He kept parrying for some reason. Actually killed one while paralyzed because it was low HP before he dropped, and his slashing bracer kept going off. It was a pretty awesome death, honestly.