Armageddon General Discussion Board

Nyr has been pretty busy and thus asked me to work this up and post it.

Raw data for September

Total new accounts created:  205
Duplicates (created multiple accounts out of confusion/staff accounts/etc):  8
New accounts minus the above: 197

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Where people came from
(noteworthy results mentioned, some might be concurrent)

Topmudsites:  9
Themudconnector: 75
Google: 21 (note that these can probably be attributed to either TMS or TMC or may be otherwise concurrent with the above)
Search/web: 37 (these also can probably be attributed to either TMS or TMC)
Friends/other players/family/co-workers/homies:  22
Reddit:  3
TV Tropes:  1

A smattering of some miscellaneous answers:
dicktowel
A friend of mine plays it and told me it was pretty awesome.
random search for pictures of 'Dark Sun'

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Login data

Made account but did not create a character: 107 (54%)
Created a character: 90 (46%)
Created a character that was approved but didn't play: 23 (12%)
Actual logins (created a character that was approved and they logged in):  43 (22%)
1 hour or less in playtime: 11
1-2 hours of playtime:  11
2-6 hours of playtime:  9
6-20 hours of playtime:  10
20+ hours of playtime:  2
Of all these, appear to still be playing: 4 (all were referred by friends) (2%)

Are you a new player with comments about how you found us and how the game has been for you so far?  Feel free to chime in here!  Getting your perspective on things will hopefully help out future players.

MFW the "dicktowel" guy isn't still with us.

(http://media.catmoji.com/post/v3af/awww-3-sad-face.jpg)

Quote from: Desertman on October 06, 2014, 05:11:30 PM
MFW the "dicktowel" guy isn't still with us.

Well, not to give too much away, but the character he tried to app was also named "Dicktowel." So..........


But try to guess the PC's race, go!

Damn elves.

Quote from: Araza on October 06, 2014, 05:49:27 PM
Damn elves.

I guess "Dicktowel" was just too much of a giveaway :/

I miss him and I never got to play with him.  :(

Talia,

While i'm hardly a new player, I have recently returned from a rather long break and it has inspired some thoughts on how Armageddon might improve on getting new players to join it's ranks.

I apologize if some of this is obvious, or has already been raised.

Based on these stats, Arm doesn't need more new accounts being created, it needs to improve its conversion rate.  22% to actually make a character and login is pretty rough.

This is a hard thing to improve.  Arm is inherently a game with a rather steep learning curve in terms of learning the culture and game world, and there's no way around that.  I think there's tons of really great documentation though to address that part.  History, world and culture aside, there are some areas where improvements could be made to make the learning curve seem less steep, or at least postpone needing to climb certain parts of it.

Here are some specific suggestions:

1)  Made an account, but not a character:

-  Character descriptions.  Having some pre-generated generic character descriptions for newbies to grab and make slight alternations to could really help them avoid the paralysis that can come along with trying to build a description from scratch.  Perhaps putting some short message that character descriptions may be updated twice in a character's lifetime will help, so they don't feel they're stuck with that description forever...  (of course at this point they're cute and think they'll actually live that long).  

-  Generic character backgrounds.  Same thing as descriptions.  Avoid paralysis.  So many character backgrounds seem to be pretty generic anyway, I don't think this would harm the game, especially for newbies.

2)  Played, but didn't last more than 6 hours.

-   Create a "New Player Chat" in-game, which is default on for all new accounts and is automatically turned off after X number of days.  Veteran players and staff who sign up as mentors can have the flag turned back on for them, so they can field questions in the new player chat in-game.   If this would take too much work to build in-game, having an out of game option available on the website would be the next best thing.

-  Alternatively, having a New Player room, that can be accessed similar to the one for scars, could also serve this purpose.  Could allow mentors/staff to see how many people are currently in that room at any time, so someone could pop over there and offer assistance.

3)  Having a friend who plays Arm seems to be THE way people stick around...

- A recruit-a-friend program could help with this.  Adding something as simple as a "recruited X players" tag on GDB accounts could work wonders, spreading awareness about which players and staff are helping populate the world with more boots and brains.  Perhaps even something that could nudge karma decisions or special application requests in a player's favor, if their contribution on that front is substantial.

How about hell no to karma for recruiting players. No thanks.

Yeah...no Karma for recruiting players.

Thanks for the stats. Maybe a browser based application system would help with conversion? Not sure.

I don't see us doing karma for player recruitment, however, the idea of rewarding players for doing something positive for the game is a good idea. I have more to say on this whole topic but I have other stuff to do right now, so will post again later.

We started a recruit-a-friend campaign but didn't really help us last year.  And the New Player Chat ideas was suggested too.

(We have the Publicity group)

That's cool.  No karma.  Just some ideas guys...can't like them all :)

Quote from: wizturbo on October 06, 2014, 06:17:57 PM
Based on these stats, Arm doesn't need more new accounts being created, it needs to improve its conversion rate.  22% to actually make a character and login is pretty rough.

Yes, I agree with you. This is something I've noted for a long time. I think--without going back to do the research--that we've actually improved a lot in recent years as far as getting people from the "account created" to "character made" point. Most of that is probably due to our more automated account approval stuff. There is still room to improve at the "character made" point. I agree that it would be really helpful to have pre-made characters for new players to jump into and try the game out, but of course that's a big coding deal.

An observation that only staff are privy to is that many of the new character apps we get are quite awful; they show no evidence at all of having read any documentation, and very little ability to follow the directions on screen. So it's possible that there's some segment of potential players who we're just never going to bring along into the game. Then again, if we had a way for them to try the game out, maybe they'd then put some effort into a character app?

I did run a recruit-a-friend campaign in probably...2012? It wasn't very successful. These are the best potential candidates for the game but players don't seem to want to campaign in that manner. I can't remember what prize I offered, maybe it just sucked :P (I don't think it really did, but honestly don't remember.)

I think the person who recruited the most friends was supposed to get a staff-led tour of an unlinked part of the game or something.

I've tried to recruit real-world friends and while they all love hearing my stories, they all say they don't have enough time to play.

here's how busy I was

I just now said to talia:

"we should do september's numbers"

Quote from: Nyr on October 06, 2014, 09:22:04 PM
here's how busy I was

I just now said to talia:

"we should do september's numbers"

i'm sure she said that it would be a great idea to do that.

Quote from: Saellyn on October 06, 2014, 09:34:42 PM

Quote from: Nyr on October 06, 2014, 09:22:04 PM
here's how busy I was

I just now said to talia:

"we should do september's numbers"

i'm sure she said that it would be a great idea to do that.

;D

The IG chat is still my favorite idea.

>newb I'm lost ... I ran out of food and water.
You tell the Helpers:
   "I'm lost ... I ran out of food and water.

Newb #23 tells the Helpers:
   "I'm lost ... I ran out of food and water.

>newb 23 Haha. Dibs on your boots, bitch.
You tell Newb 23:
   "Haha. Dibs on your boots, bitch."

Helper 1 tells Newb 23:
   "Haha. Dibs on your boots, bitch."

A Helper tells you:
   "Haha. Dibs on your boots, bitch."

I did not just laugh at that. I did NOT.

A Helper sends you:
     "Just keep going west. You're almost there..."

*Beep*

I went back and did a quick look over the numbers to see how we're doing long-term on retaining new players, here are the numbers just from this year. These are new players who created their account in that month and have played within the past month:

January = 4
February = 1
March = 2
April = 2
May = 4
June = 7
July = 4
August = 8

Just an peripheral observation on this topic of player retention - doesn't, whith such a low number of 'new' players, make it also doubly more important to care for the older playerbase that can get disillusioned, burned out and jaded and not log in for months/years at a time? I mean, are we growing faster than we're losing players? (Obviously or we'd be a dead game, but still..)

Quote from: Voular on October 07, 2014, 12:34:36 PM
Just an peripheral observation on this topic of player retention - doesn't, whith such a low number of 'new' players, make it also doubly more important to care for the older playerbase that can get disillusioned, burned out and jaded and not log in for months/years at a time? I mean, are we growing faster than we're losing players? (Obviously or we'd be a dead game, but still..)

What would you suggest to do here to care for them?

I'm kind of curious what to do about that myself. The game changes every so often, sometimes in a big way. I don't see why it's so bad that the game has stayed the way it has.

Quote from: Nyr on October 07, 2014, 02:09:55 PM

Quote from: Voular on October 07, 2014, 12:34:36 PM
Just an peripheral observation on this topic of player retention - doesn't, whith such a low number of 'new' players, make it also doubly more important to care for the older playerbase that can get disillusioned, burned out and jaded and not log in for months/years at a time? I mean, are we growing faster than we're losing players? (Obviously or we'd be a dead game, but still..)

What would you suggest to do here to care for them?

Don't have any bright ideas. Why not talk to returning players and ask them if there was something that could have coaxed them into returning sooner/with more vigor? I mean, some have RL reasons, some might just not agree with policy x or y or how a certain thing got handled. People are easily rubbed the wrong way, and I think the effort required to have experienced, knowledgeable players stick around is probably less than it would take to recruit/indoctrinate new players.

Maybe when a staff member finds them self angry or at an impasse with a player, hand them off to someone who comes in fresher or calmer?

Edited to add, no rancor or sarcasm is intended. (Text can be a rough medium.) I think often for me, my biggest blow ups have happened when I had managed to truly irritate the staff member I was dealing with. In response they were likely a bit short with me and nothing good resulted. (At least not good for me, whoever I was dealing with may have felt my resulting Arm vacations were a win. :) )

Quote from: Nyr on October 07, 2014, 02:09:55 PM

What would you suggest to do here to care for them?

The main thing to consider on this front is change management.  Every time the status quo is challenged, someone's attitude about the game is going to change.  Some of these moments are generally outside the staff's hands, such as the death or retirement of a character.  But some of these moments are staff-driven.  Changes to the code, changes to the game world, etc.

For the staff-driven moments, its easy for players to feel victimized in some way, or that these changes damage the player's sense of nostalgia about something they're emotionally invested in.  In my opinion, the best way to manage that kind of change is through stronger communication and making a concerted effort to make players feel valued.

I think the key for Arm is to give players the sense that their voice is heard, and sincerely appreciated, even if they're not in favor of the changes.  Here are some suggestions on how this can be achieved:

• Seek player feedback before changes are completely decided or announced.  Players feel they have no voice when a decision is made before they're consulted
• Take extra care about how things are phrased in communications.  The difference between someone feeling valued and having a sense of dignity is often decided by just a few words.
• Explain decisions that are controversial.  The sorcerer changes were a great example of how this was well done, albeit later in the thread instead of upfront.

I think the swell of players we got around the HRPT is a great indicator of what brings people in, new and old. Seeing players who are already playing get excited about something. And I don't think it has to be an HRPT every time.  For instance, around that time we also introduced the new extended sub_guilds, and got an awesome website up and running.

We need to get the current player-base more excited, not try to focus on the people who aren't playing. Those will come when they see how much fun we're having.

Edit: Also everything Wizturbo just said, he's spot on.

Players voices have definitely seemed more taken into account even in the last couple of years than in the whole timespan of the game. The rape ban amongst other discussions seemed to change policy somewhat based on player input. Not to mention the vast amount of code changes based on our input too. Pretty cool.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on October 07, 2014, 02:41:58 PM
I think the swell of players we got around the HRPT is a great indicator of what brings people in, new and old. Seeing players who are already playing get excited about something. And I don't think it has to be an HRPT every time.  For instance, around that time we also introduced the new extended sub_guilds, and got an awesome website up and running.

We need to get the current player-base more excited, not try to focus on the people who aren't playing. Those will come when they see how much fun we're having.

I agree completely.  To get people to return is all about generating fun content.  Keeping people from being burnt out or rage-quitting is what my previous post was about.

From a data standpoint, I think we actually don't know why veteran players leave the game or take hiatuses. We each have an opinion based on our own experience, or what we've heard; so we have anecdata.

E.g., I could tell you that I left the game in 2012 because I was burnt out, and I could tell you that I came back in August because I needed the immersion / stress relief that only comes from Armageddon, but that doesn't tell you anything about another player's reasons. I haven't ever left because of interactions with staff, or because I got PKed and rage-quit, but that doesn't mean another player hasn't.

So it's nearly impossible to make recommendations about retaining or re-attracting veteran players, IMO, because we simply don't know why they may have left or may be at risk of leaving.

Maybe we should have an "exit interview" multiple choice form on the website? For the motivated butt hurt amongst them.

Quote from: Reiloth on October 07, 2014, 02:53:41 PM
Maybe we should have an "exit interview" multiple choice form on the website? For the motivated butt hurt amongst them.

This isn't a bad idea. How would it work though? Maybe after a month of inactivity it sends you an email asking why you left the game?

That could work. I don't know if everyone would respond but it would at least provide some data.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on October 07, 2014, 02:49:29 PM
From a data standpoint, I think we actually don't know why veteran players leave the game or take hiatuses. We each have an opinion based on our own experience, or what we've heard; so we have anecdata.

E.g., I could tell you that I left the game in 2012 because I was burnt out, and I could tell you that I came back in August because I needed the immersion / stress relief that only comes from Armageddon, but that doesn't tell you anything about another player's reasons. I haven't ever left because of interactions with staff, or because I got PKed and rage-quit, but that doesn't mean another player hasn't.

So it's nearly impossible to make recommendations about retaining or re-attracting veteran players, IMO, because we simply don't know why they may have left or may be at risk of leaving.

Well said.

Quote from: Reiloth on October 07, 2014, 02:53:41 PM
Maybe we should have an "exit interview" multiple choice form on the website? For the motivated butt hurt amongst them.

The basic problem with this is that you wind up getting a skewed result, because only those really "motivated [by] butt hurt" are going to bother putting in a review. Same reason you see restaurant reviews on Yelp swing between extreme "best eatery ever!" and "I got dysentery and died from their sun tea."

Said email should not include the term "butt hurt." Maybe.

Quote from: Reiloth on October 07, 2014, 02:53:41 PM
Maybe we should have an "exit interview" multiple choice form on the website? For the motivated butt hurt amongst them.

That's a good idea. Another possibility: We put up a poll (or polls) here on the GDB for those of us who have left the game and come back, and try to ascertain two things: 1. Why did the player leave? 2. Why did the player come back? It should be reasonably well-designed, however. (Not to be a jerk or anything, but often the polls we do here have flaws!) Maybe could ask how long the player stayed gone, too. Not sure how many responses we would need to have a true sample; 20 to 30?

Players who came back are probably a better model, data-wise, than those who never come back. There are going to be some players we have no hope of re-attracting, but we can't worry about them. We should focus on players who are likely to come back.

Quote from: Barzalene on October 07, 2014, 02:26:44 PM
Maybe when a staff member finds them self angry or at an impasse with a player, hand them off to someone who comes in fresher or calmer?

This is actually already part of staff involvement with players in documentation for staff.  Storytellers are not actually intended to be involved in dealing with administrative or disciplinary stuff--that is actually the administrator's role.  This leaves the storyteller fresh and ready for working with the clan and NOT getting agitated or angry directly with a player, leaving the role of 'bad guy/bad gal' (if needed) to be played by the administrator.  The buck tends to stop there as they are the ones that will have to deal with all future administrative/disciplinary-related stuff in the clan group.  It is also possible for another administrator+ to handle dealing with a specific player's issue.  This is rare, but it does happen.

Quote from: wizturbo on October 07, 2014, 02:39:31 PM
I think the key for Arm is to give players the sense that their voice is heard, and sincerely appreciated, even if they're not in favor of the changes.  Here are some suggestions on how this can be achieved:

• Seek player feedback before changes are completely decided or announced.  Players feel they have no voice when a decision is made before they're consulted
• Take extra care about how things are phrased in communications.  The difference between someone feeling valued and having a sense of dignity is often decided by just a few words.
• Explain decisions that are controversial.  The sorcerer changes were a great example of how this was well done, albeit later in the thread instead of upfront.

The latter two, we can definitely do better on.

The former is more complicated.  There are times when we can do this and there are times that we do not feel that we can do this.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on October 07, 2014, 02:55:37 PM

Quote from: Reiloth on October 07, 2014, 02:53:41 PM
Maybe we should have an "exit interview" multiple choice form on the website? For the motivated butt hurt amongst them.

This isn't a bad idea. How would it work though? Maybe after a month of inactivity it sends you an email asking why you left the game?

It might need to be longer than that.

We've utilized some external/free tools for surveys for these new players and we will (maybe) get that started back up again.  We can expand that to set up a survey for players that were here for a while/left by sending that out manually, provided we have a good standard/metric for identifying what a "veteran player" is, and how long they should be not playing before they are in this category.  I'm not sure that it should be entirely automated either.

As the official ambassador of the jaded Arm players fanclub, I can tell you that the majority of us will only return when we feel like we're missing on exciting stuff. Just the feeling of missing on exciting stuff will get us back. From reading the GDB, I know that I'm not missing on anything by not playing and just reading the GDB.

The problem is that many will answer that I should make my own fun and get something exciting going, but that's not going to get us back. We want some exciting events that we can be part of, not spend the next six months or so to get started, maybe.

Also, a lot of other jaded players' demands are so over the top that it'll never happen, so you can count them out permanently.

So what would make you feel like you're missing exciting stuff?  We can't exactly advertise every plot on the GDB.  In fact, generally we can't advertise any plots on the GDB.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on October 07, 2014, 03:19:18 PM
So what would make you feel like you're missing exciting stuff?  We can't exactly advertise every plot on the GDB.  In fact, generally we can't advertise any plots on the GDB.

Oh, I know that, but I've been around the block for so long that I know just by reading posts when some exciting thing is happening or when the game's story has just stalled forever (which I'm thinking is the case at the moment and has been for a long time).

When a lot of people posts stuff like, "Holy shit, I can't believe this happened!" and others follow and this goes on for a few days and often, I know exciting stuff is happening.

If most people post how boring Tuluk is (like Barsook has been doing for a while), I know that Tuluk is just as dead as when I left it.

I also talk to plenty of ex and current Arm players as well.

I'll try to make the game more exciting.

Quote from: Malken on October 07, 2014, 03:21:46 PM
When a lot of people posts stuff like, "Holy shit, I can't believe this happened!" and others follow and this goes on for a few days and often, I know exciting stuff is happening.

brb, making alt accounts

In seriousness, what is the extent to which you'd want to be notified about things happening?  How "exciting" does something have to be to get you back?  What is it that you feel you want to be missing?

Quote from: Malken on October 07, 2014, 03:14:03 PM
As the official ambassador of the jaded Arm players fanclub, I can tell you that the majority of us will only return when we feel like we're missing on exciting stuff.

OK, but I'm going to point out here that not all veteran players who are not playing currently are necessarily members of the "jaded Arm players fanclub." I certainly wasn't.

And as to exciting stuff happening...I think that may help sometimes, or may not. I was around for the HRPT last year and then just quit again because I wasn't feeling it.

Not that I think that telling people about exciting stuff happening is a bad idea, because I don't; I think it's a very good idea, if it can be done without revealing too much.

Quote from: Nyr on October 07, 2014, 03:49:19 PM
What is it that you feel you want to be missing?

Ultraviolence.

Check it - most of the old jaded vets that don't play anymore started their Arm career back in the Halaster/Tlaloc/Bhagarva (lol) days. The modus operandi for storytellers back in those days felt very different than it does today. To wit, STs back in the late 90s and early 00s were actual storytellers, and not this weird amalgam of item-loaders and request-responders. I used to get legit excited when my Bynner went out on what we all knew was a Halaster RPT, because we had no idea what was going to happen. It didn't matter if every single one of us died, we'd go out witnessing some memorable shit.

The social climate in both cities is another reason I don't really play much anymore. Tuluk is basically an empty cuddle puddle, Allanak is a bustling cuddle puddle that tries to pretend it isn't one. Nobles are mudsexxing for hours at a time and not wandering the streets, finding some shitheel to fuck with. I haven't seen anyone thrown in the pit in forever. I haven't seen a cruel, despotic templar that gave me the OOC shakes in forever. I haven't seen an attempted mugging in the city proper for years.. The status quo isn't murder, corruption, and betrayal anymore. It's more like tea, hat-tipping, and soft smiles.

Give me blood. Give me public torture. Give me frightening, unpredictable magick. Give me that sense that anything could happen, anywhere, at anytime.

To answer your question, Nyr - eat my brains!

Quote from: Nyr on October 07, 2014, 03:49:19 PM
In seriousness, what is the extent to which you'd want to be notified about things happening?  How "exciting" does something have to be to get you back?  What is it that you feel you want to be missing?

Well, that's a legit question and I think it deserves to be answered without my usual cynicism, so give me time to think it through and I'll give you a serious answer.

And Gimfy, I don't think you've ever been jaded but it's RL that pulled you away from the game, no? So I think you would be part of those I mentioned that no matter what, they won't be coming back, so there's no point in focusing on them (By that, I mean that if it's RL related, no matter what you do in game will make these players come back - at least for now).

Quote from: Malken on October 07, 2014, 04:33:45 PM
And Gimfy, I don't think you've ever been jaded but it's RL that pulled you away from the game, no? So I think you would be part of those I mentioned that no matter what, they won't be coming back, so there's no point in focusing on them (By that, I mean that if it's RL related, no matter what you do in game will make these players come back - at least for now).

I think the pull of RL has been part of it, but more so I just got burnt out on the game and it stopped being fun for me for a while. I tend to really pour myself into the game when I'm actively playing, and then if I don't feel the reward coming back from doing that, it stops being fun. That probably makes no sense to anyone but me. I think it's helpful if I can take myself less seriously as a player and just enjoy stuff for what it is, although that's difficult for me to do, honestly.

And I came back because I missed the players. And needed some immersion, like I said.

Quote from: manonfire on October 07, 2014, 04:31:42 PM

Check it - most of the old jaded vets that don't play anymore started their Arm career back in the Halaster/Tlaloc/Bhagarva (lol) days. The modus operandi for storytellers back in those days felt very different than it does today. To wit, STs back in the late 90s and early 00s were actual storytellers, and not this weird amalgam of item-loaders and request-responders. I used to get legit excited when my Bynner went out on what we all knew was a Halaster RPT, because we had no idea what was going to happen. It didn't matter if every single one of us died, we'd go out witnessing some memorable shit.

Give me frightening, unpredictable magick. Give me that sense that anything could happen, anywhere, at anytime.

To answer your question, Nyr - eat my brains!

THIS.  I recall a long time ago when I played my Templar Sarador he went into the sewers to investigate some disturbances and got attacked by some horrible, horrible things and/or NPC cultists of some kind.  I wouldn't call it an HRPT, there were maybe...10 PCs there? But it was a memorable wild event that made the world seem alive and dangerous again, even for a Templar that was codedly very powerful.  

I also remember a certain character of mine getting killed by PC of a race or mutation I didn't even know existed.  So while I watched my character be murdered horribly, feeling the pain that comes with that loss, I couldn't help but go OMG THAT WAS SO COOL!

Those are the feelings I miss.  And you know, maybe that stuff still happens in Arm and I just don't see it because my PCs aren't at the right place.  I'll admit, stuff I read on these boards about the HRPT made me think that maybe this kind of thing is starting to happen again in the game...so I came back to take a peek.

Just to add on to the above, because I agree it feels like staff has much less of a hand in scary events in general... But my favorite event recently involved just that. Staff basically setting up some raiders for the Byn to go kill and then FUCKING OUR SHIT UP.

It was great, honestly. And I can't imagine it was TOO taxing to set up.

That'd be for staff to say.

Staff might not be dropping a bunch of fire elementals in the room anymore or schooling you with their personal twink sorcerer, but they seem plenty happy to maul you if given a bit of forewarning.

Quote from: manonfire on October 07, 2014, 04:31:42 PM
stuff

Not to trivialize what you are writing, I just need to indicate that I'm replying to you in particular here.

I don't think the slapdash depiction of how STs did stuff in the old days vs now is accurate.  That's because I feel like our storytellers are talented folks that are only getting better at coming up with stories to play with the playerbase, and I'm more than happy to defend their skills here and now against the imagined awesomeness of a different time in which there was less accountability and less communication.  I don't think we sacrifice storytelling for better communication tools and accountability.  "Both" is indeed possible and has been.

That's not to say that there are not lulls, whether imposed by other projects (which very often have plot-based elements included which allow for those things you want to see happen to happen) or by stuff outside of our control (limited staff resources or outside impact due to RL concerns) or even just by the fact that we might be between two particular plots, whether player or staff-led.

The social climate in both cities is ripe for someone who wants ultraviolence to actually cause it and/or partake in it.  Disparaging the players that play there is easy to do, I understand why that is a go-to reaction from some players.  Even complaints that things are boring, that's something understandable.  It's frustrating to everyone else that may not think so (or even to those that maybe DO think it's a bit slow now, but certainly not a barren wasteland of activity), of course, but it is understandable that you (or anyone) might express your dislike of a certain situation.  That goes with the expressed exaggerations, too--fair enough, poetic license is what it is.

Quote from: manonfire on October 07, 2014, 04:31:42 PM
Give me blood. Give me public torture. Give me frightening, unpredictable magick. Give me that sense that anything could happen, anywhere, at anytime.

To answer your question, Nyr - eat my brains!

I'm torn between replying with one of the two below quotes.

QuoteSorry to disappoint.  We don't actually do anything fun in the game anymore.  This just isn't that kind of game--we would rather just resolve requests, load items, and tell players "no" repeatedly.

and

QuoteChallenge accepted.

I suspect eyes would be rolled at both for different reasons, so I'll go with neither.

The things that you desire can happen, have happened (even recently), and will happen (even soon) in the game.  I'm hopeful that you won't miss them when they happen again, but I'll understand if you miss out.

We all know Nyr is secretly replying with "Challenge accepted" and then handing it off to Nessalin to deal with...

Yeah, I don't know, being constantly cynic is getting tiredsome. I always loved Armageddon and maybe I just got burnt out too. I think listening to us players who constantly bitch about the good ol' days without replying in a jerk way is a good start and when all the bitching is done, we can look at Armageddon for what it is today and find something still to enjoy.

You argue, you fight, you get banned, you fill out a complaint about a Staff, you get told to hug and make up and then you play again with a smile. It's almost like family.

Quote from: Malken on October 07, 2014, 05:30:33 PM
Yeah, I don't know, being constantly cynic is getting tiredsome. I always loved Armageddon and maybe I just got burnt out too. I think listening to us players who constantly bitch about the good ol' days without replying in a jerk way is a good start and when all the bitching is done, we can look at Armageddon for what it is today and find something still to enjoy.

You argue, you fight, you get banned, you fill out a complaint about a Staff, you get told to hug and make up and then you play again with a smile. It's almost like family.

If people want to bitch, they're going to bitch. That doesn't necessarily mean their bitching is justified or accurate. It's easy to set yourself up in an echo chamber of complaining, especially if you're not actively playing yourself and experience counter-examples to what you're hearing about.

I think for some players the pull of memory and nostalgia will always win over what's actually happening in game right now. Sometimes I feel like my own best times as a player are behind me, and then I tell myself: "Aww...fuck that!"

I agree with Nyr, there's no reason we can't be Storytellers who are good both at telling stories, and at being responsive to players and accountable to other staff. Funny enough, I get a lot more kudos from players when I approve their apps quickly or help them with a wish than I do for doing plot stuff. And I get a lot of "thank you for the encouragement" when I respond to reports. So...conclusion? I don't know. I guess I see my role as doing what is helpful to players, which is sometimes making a big story happen, and sometimes is other stuff in support of their roles and their stories.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on October 07, 2014, 05:07:20 PM
Just to add on to the above, because I agree it feels like staff has much less of a hand in scary events in general... But my favorite event recently involved just that. Staff basically setting up some raiders for the Byn to go kill and then FUCKING OUR SHIT UP.

It was great, honestly. And I can't imagine it was TOO taxing to set up.

Um...yeah, no. When we run a plot, there is so much to do, you can't even imagine.

-- Write the backstory
-- Build NPCs
-- Build objects
-- Build rooms
-- Lay plot cues
-- Animate, animate, animate, ANIMATE in advance
-- Run the RPT

And then there's a whole administrative and communication side of things we need to do for a plot. I would guess that a "simple" plot still has dozens of hours of staff time invested in it. A few weekends ago when we had an RPT in Allanak, I would estimate that we spent probably a hundred staff hours on it that weekend alone; that doesn't count everything that was done in support of the plot and RPT up to that point.

So are we Storytellers? Yes, we are. Hey, one of my plots even made it onto the History page, so I feel pretty confident :)

I dare you to start playing again, Malken.

Double-dare.

All it takes is an hour a day.

Quote from: Reiloth on October 07, 2014, 05:36:34 PM
I dare you to start playing again, Malken.

Double-dare.

Oh man, I didn't even lose any precious karmaz and I got two special apps that opened up. This is making it hard to resist.

Quote from: Talia on October 07, 2014, 05:35:49 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on October 07, 2014, 05:07:20 PM
Just to add on to the above, because I agree it feels like staff has much less of a hand in scary events in general... But my favorite event recently involved just that. Staff basically setting up some raiders for the Byn to go kill and then FUCKING OUR SHIT UP.

It was great, honestly. And I can't imagine it was TOO taxing to set up.

Um...yeah, no. When we run a plot, there is so much to do, you can't even imagine.

-- Write the backstory
-- Build NPCs
-- Build objects
-- Build rooms
-- Lay plot cues
-- Animate, animate, animate, ANIMATE in advance
-- Run the RPT

And then there's a whole administrative and communication side of things we need to do for a plot. I would guess that a "simple" plot still has dozens of hours of staff time invested in it. A few weekends ago when we had an RPT in Allanak, I would estimate that we spent probably a hundred staff hours on it that weekend alone; that doesn't count everything that was done in support of the plot and RPT up to that point.

I'm not trying to trivialize the ammoutn fo work you put into the average event. My point here was I was referencing a seemingly simple plot that DIDN'T take as much as your average staff-run event does. (yes I know there was still a decent bit of setup for that particular event)

I suppose another example could be from further back: I had a PC in the militia and all the sudden weird red-skinned lizard-people started showing up, attacking people. I have no idea if that was part of a larger story, or had a purpose, but for me, it was just NPC's beign spawned and causing a ruckuss. And it was fun. And I hardly ever see stuff like that anymore.

Why can't a random bundle of Gith spring up from the sewers every now and again? You don't need some massive explanation and build up for something like that.

Or the fact that 9/10 scheduled travel trips for clans go off without a hitch. It shouldn't be so damn easy to get an Argosy across the known. You think Kadius would ever skimp on hiring the Byn for an escort if there was actually tangible danger every time they left in large packs?

What about animating a rogue band of ex-Tuluki soldiers who randomly decide to raid a 'nakki village.

I'm not saying these things don't sometimes happen, but it would be neat if they happened more often. They don't have to be overly complicated to be entertaining.

I've often felt that my best Armageddon days are behind me.

I've often been proven wrong.

Quote from: Nyr on October 07, 2014, 05:15:14 PM
Not to trivialize what you are writing, I just need to indicate that I'm replying to you in particular here.

I don't think the slapdash depiction of how STs did stuff in the old days vs now is accurate.  That's because I feel like our storytellers are talented folks that are only getting better at coming up with stories to play with the playerbase, and I'm more than happy to defend their skills here and now against the imagined awesomeness of a different time in which there was less accountability and less communication.

I apologize if my depiction seemed slapdash. The immortals I've interacted with in the last couple years have been great, both in-game and out. I typed this up at work during a meeting I wasn't paying attention to, so I was a little hasty.

The awesomeness wasn't imagined. I lived it. My characters lived it. My Elkran had a library door scream at him. I've had elementals gnaw arms off my characters. I took part in a ritual that released the motherfucking Dragon. I watched a templar pry a steel shield off a wall. I've tracked talking tembos through alternate reality versions of the Grey Forest. I had a itsy, bitsy spider scare the living shit out of me and my character (I think that was you, actually).  I helped a sentient braxat destroy a gate. I watched a little girl Krathi leave a trail of molten glass footsteps through the desert. I've been chased through sewer tunnels by a shit horror.

I took part in some really incredible things in the 10+ years I've been here. 90% of those really incredible things were pre-2008. I was away from the game for 2 or 3 years because of the ban, and when I came back a couple years ago, the game felt fundamentally different. The tone seems softer, there's less antagonism, and the focus has seemed to shift away from the things that made the game memorable for me.

I'm not trying to disparage the talents of the current crop of storytellers (or even the previous generation), and I find it unfortunate that you think I am. Criticism, however constructive, is hard not to take personally.

QuoteI don't think we sacrifice storytelling for better communication tools and accountability.  "Both" is indeed possible and has been.

I don't think you do either. My real point is, the game feels different to me than it did in the past. Rose-colored glasses? Possibly.

We play Armageddon because it makes us feel a certain way. Armageddon doesn't make me feel that way it used to. It's as simple as that. My exposition is equal parts constructive criticism and trying to figure out, for my own sake, exactly why I feel this way. Maybe it's me - maybe the tone of game hasn't changed a bit, and my point of view is invalid because I'm the one who's changed. Who knows.

Quote
That's not to say that there are not lulls, whether imposed by other projects (which very often have plot-based elements included which allow for those things you want to see happen to happen) or by stuff outside of our control (limited staff resources or outside impact due to RL concerns) or even just by the fact that we might be between two particular plots, whether player or staff-led.

The social climate in both cities is ripe for someone who wants ultraviolence to actually cause it and/or partake in it.  Disparaging the players that play there is easy to do, I understand why that is a go-to reaction from some players.  Even complaints that things are boring, that's something understandable.  It's frustrating to everyone else that may not think so (or even to those that maybe DO think it's a bit slow now, but certainly not a barren wasteland of activity), of course, but it is understandable that you (or anyone) might express your dislike of a certain situation.  That goes with the expressed exaggerations, too--fair enough, poetic license is what it is.

It may be ripe from a staff perspective, but I suspect you've forgotten what it's like to be a player. From the top, you see every angle, every possibility, every interaction that could have developed into X or Y.

I don't have that luxury. Sometimes we want a plot presented to us, and to be taken along for a ride. I had this experience not long ago with a Gemmer of mine, and it was a great, great experience. But it felt like the exception, not the rule.

QuoteChallenge accepted.

No eyerolling whatsoever. I eagerly invite you to give my characters a bloody, hilarious death. It doesn't have to be part of some carefully scripted plot. You could fling 20 gith at the city walls for no reason other than it's fun, I'd throw my 4-hour merchant right back at them, and I'd giggle the entire way to the mantishead.

I hope you don't take any of this as negative. I just want that feeling back.

Quote from: manonfire on October 07, 2014, 06:26:39 PM
I hope you don't take any of this as negative. I just want that feeling back.

I hear you. I hope we can do that, very much! I would just ask players to be patient; we are only just now staffed up to full after quite a few months of not being full. And there is so much to get done. I know we have plans, and I'm really excited about stuff that...I can't talk about...but truly, there's cool stuff in the works.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on October 07, 2014, 05:56:55 PM

Why can't a random bundle of Gith spring up from the sewers every now and again? You don't need some massive explanation and build up for something like that.

Or the fact that 9/10 scheduled travel trips for clans go off without a hitch. It shouldn't be so damn easy to get an Argosy across the known. You think Kadius would ever skimp on hiring the Byn for an escort if there was actually tangible danger every time they left in large packs?

What about animating a rogue band of ex-Tuluki soldiers who randomly decide to raid a 'nakki village.

I'm not saying these things don't sometimes happen, but it would be neat if they happened more often. They don't have to be overly complicated to be entertaining.

Yup, this kind of stuff would be fantastic.  Drop some random monsters in a cave, watch players get killed by them, or kill them and drag them back to their templar buddy to show off.  Drop a random metal/magick spoon in a ruins, watch PC's fight and murder over it.  There doesn't have to be some grand plot or background to it, in fact, sometimes the things that aren't explained end up building a greater story all on their own.

Doesn't even have to be combat or loot to be honest.  Drop an ancient, torn up scroll with some writing on it in an alleyway, and you've just created an adventure for the rinthi who picks it up, of finding a noble who might pay a reward for it.  Maybe it has something interesting written on it, or maybe its an old love poem to a long dead Lady Fancyskirts that has some comical value but nothing more.  Either way you've created a plot prop with minimal time investment.

Quote from: manonfire on October 07, 2014, 06:26:39 PM
The awesomeness wasn't imagined. I lived it. My characters lived it. My Elkran had a library door scream at him. I've had elementals gnaw arms off my characters. I took part in a ritual that released the motherfucking Dragon. I watched a templar pry a steel shield off a wall. I've tracked talking tembos through alternate reality versions of the Grey Forest. I had a itsy, bitsy spider scare the living shit out of me and my character (I think that was you, actually).  I helped a sentient braxat destroy a gate. I watched a little girl Krathi leave a trail of molten glass footsteps through the desert. I've been chased through sewer tunnels by a shit horror.

I took part in some really incredible things in the 10+ years I've been here. 90% of those really incredible things were pre-2008. I was away from the game for 2 or 3 years because of the ban, and when I came back a couple years ago, the game felt fundamentally different. The tone seems softer, there's less antagonism, and the focus has seemed to shift away from the things that made the game memorable for me.

It definitely sounds like the tone has shifted away from a high magick feel. (thank goodness)

And if you think you can go in to the sewers these days without being chased by a shit horror, Staff probably just don't know you're down there well enough in advance.

You assume you need staff to get chased by a shit horror <_<

I appreciate the feedback about not all plots needing a grand build-up and background; that's something I think we can definitely keep in mind. One of my most favorite animations, which turned into a plot, happened completely by chance last year because a player didn't react to an echo I sent them in a way I'd anticipated at all, so I had to scramble and improvise. It wound up actually being a very defining moment for that particular player's clan!

Also, not so long ago I actually did chase a bunch of you out of the sewers with a shit horror. So this stuff still happens, and we have fun making it happen. But it also takes work on our side, for sure. There's very little you can do well on staff in terms of animations/plots without spending an hour's worth of work at the bare minimum, including prep, events, and handling the aftermath. Luckily, right now we have a really big and awesome crew of Storytellers on board, so we'll have time to do more of this sort of thing.

We do need to consider the consequences and fallout of what we do as staff, though. For instance, not all players want to get killed in awesome ways, despite what we hear on the GDB. What's an awesome death to manonfire might well be unwelcome or even a staff complaint from somebody else. Some players enjoy seeing more high mystery and magickal plots out there, but others very much do not enjoy it, as anyone can see from reviewing the GDB archives of years gone by.

Beyond that, there's also consistency of the world we have to consider. Gith don't spring up from the sewers to rampage and then die just because; they aren't mindless orcs, and this isn't a hack and slash style setting where you should expect the staff to create baddies to kill for fun. Part of creating and maintaining an immersive world means that stuff has to make sense, and not be introduced just because it's cool or because a staff member was bored that day.

One of the toughest parts about being a staff member is trying to strike a balance between all of these competing forces in order to make the most people happy. I'd say we've been doing a good job lately, and there's always room for constructive feedback. Meanwhile, I really want to drop a teaser for some of the ideas for plots we've been kicking around even before this post, but I won't. Anyway, just wait and see. If you've been considering coming back, you should!

Rahnevyn just said everything I actually wanted to say but couldn't figure out how to type out.

Quote from: Talia on October 07, 2014, 07:01:18 PM
Rahnevyn just said everything I actually wanted to say but couldn't figure out how to type out.

I'm surprised you can even type lolololol

Quote from: Talia on October 06, 2014, 08:54:39 PM

An observation that only staff are privy to is that many of the new character apps we get are quite awful; they show no evidence at all of having read any documentation, and very little ability to follow the directions on screen. So it's possible that there's some segment of potential players who we're just never going to bring along into the game. Then again, if we had a way for them to try the game out, maybe they'd then put some effort into a character app?

Just to pipe in, I probably was one of those, and here's my reasoning: I was curious what it was all about, and the amount of raw data to digest was EXTREMELY overwhelming, especially if it turned out that there were like 5 players or whatever.  There's a LOT of dead and dying muds out there, so I didn't want to put in the effort.  Solution for lazy bums? 

1. Pre-formatted characters would help.
2. An even more trimmed down newbie entrance hall, so you can get into the game right away.  (The current newbie hall would be for when, once you finally get into the game, you can then go back and be like: ok, let's figure this out, this is awesome.)

Perhaps this is all crazy talk, but it'd be nice to just be like: Enter your name.  Would you like the regular or highly curtailed chargen process?  Oh, highly curtailed?  Well, be prepared, go to HELPER chat a lot, and you'll die, but: Here's your background and description and all that jazz, and some clothes.  Bam, You're in the Gaj.

Anyway, probably a dumb idea.

Give players two choices at character creation.

1.) Create a "real" character.
2.) Enter the game as an arena combatant using semi-randomly generated desc, background. Give them the ability to choose a race and such. Allow mantis and gith. Maybe allow muls for the cost of 2 or 3 tickets.
--Create a limit of three run throughs before the game forces experienced arena combatants to make a "real" character afterwards.
--After the player has played a real character, give them an "arena combatant" ticket to use for after they die.

Rinse and repeat. Also, give all old players 3 free arena combatant tickets when this feature is added.

kudos to nauta for stimulating me to suggest this. :)

Quote from: nauta on October 07, 2014, 07:26:49 PM
Anyway, probably a dumb idea.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I think it's a good idea. It would take a lot of coding resources to implement, however. So it's not a short-term solution.

I just wanted to say I am enjoying this measured and sensible discussion.

Also stop trying to get the staff to animate the shit horror!!!

If Malken comes back I promise to write his next PC's mdesc for him. I will include the tapered waist and the flowing long hair, and he can grin boyishly at all the ladies in Tuluk once more.

I think the best time for player run plots was when a player could become a Red Robe or start their own merchant house feasibly. Without, uh, getting stored.


EDIT: well, wrong thread.

It would be cool if there were 3-5 stock descriptions they could choose from, and they came with a matching generic sdesc. The tall, muscular man, the rangy, sinewy man, the brown-haired, green-eyed man, the towering, hale man, and matching ones for women. I think sometimes the 'effort' is what turns people off at character generation, combined with needing to wait for approval. Also include 3-5 stock backgrounds. I am a farmer, and I am coming to the city for the first time. Actually fuck it, make it a required background for beginning players, and vague enough that you could start in Tuluk or Allanak.

Since these are stock descriptions, sdescs, and backgrounds, make approval immediate.

Quote from: Harmless on October 07, 2014, 07:36:06 PM
Give players two choices at character creation.

1.) Create a "real" character.
2.) Enter the game as an arena combatant using semi-randomly generated desc, background. Give them the ability to choose a race and such. Allow mantis and gith. Maybe allow muls for the cost of 2 or 3 tickets.
--Create a limit of three run throughs before the game forces experienced arena combatants to make a "real" character afterwards.
--After the player has played a real character, give them an "arena combatant" ticket to use for after they die.

Rinse and repeat. Also, give all old players 3 free arena combatant tickets when this feature is added.

kudos to nauta for stimulating me to suggest this. :)

Actually, I think all pre-generated backgrounds should just be: A whore.  Or maybe: A whore from a farming village, with good teeth.

Yeah let's try to not creep out our potential new players by forcing them into a sexualized background.

Quote from: Lizzie on October 07, 2014, 07:57:51 PM
If Malken comes back I promise to write his next PC's mdesc for him. I will include the tapered waist and the flowing long hair, and he can grin boyishly at all the ladies in Tuluk once more.

Aw, you know the way to my heart so well ^_^

I miss grinning boyishly at all the ladies in Tuluk.

If auto-approval with an existing concept were possible for a brand new player, I think it would have to be funneled somehow so it could be managed and wouldn't overwhelm the playerbase with PCs played by players that truly do not know what they are doing.  Keep in mind that for the past year or more, there have been (usually) 200+ applications per month.  That's a lot of people to add to a game...each month...without knowing the caliber of player you're adding to the game.

Let them have the auto-accept accounts be funneled into a new player area where they interact with each other before being thrown into the game proper? Helpers/Extremely bored storytellers could pop in to set up scenes and stuff for them to roleplay around, or they could just do this while they wait for their real apps to be accepted/denied.

That's why I like the idea of using the arena to cage in this new class of player. Of course regular PCs can interact directly or indirectly with them as their own combatants or as audience members.

Well, I don't know about that. . .

The tall muscular man says, in sirihish:
     "look ebon"

The tall muscular man looks at you.


The tall muscular man attacks you.
The tall muscular man hits at you, but you dodge out of the way.
The tall muscular man hits at you, but you dodge out of the way.

This x 100.

Maybe we can let people see how many players are online when they connect to their account, so new players can see that we're a moderately populated game.

What would this"new class of player" actually bring to the game? Other than padding our numbers?

More realistically large clans, for one, I think, instead of Kadius's public front being like, six dudes.

A Templar being able to pick a random shitheel from the crowd without him being more than likely waist deep in fourteen plots because there's only so many PCs.

Making the world seem more alive in general.

Boots.

Many boots.

More open clans in general might happen, so staff stop doing that "We don't want to open too many clans because players will be spread too thin" thing.

No I mean what does an endless stream of newbies hacking and slashing in the arena get us

Re-open the Atrium and when they create their first few characters, ask them if they prefer the adventure/combat oriented role-playing or a more social/politics type of role-playing and depending on their choices, either send them straight to the Atrium or the Byn.

Also, if you are clanned as a leader of your clan, then make it so that anyone with a leader flag will be alerted when a new player shows up in the game. I think we can trust the leaders of our game not to just lead newbies into the 'rinth and gank them for their n00b coins.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 07, 2014, 09:37:03 PM
No I mean what does an endless stream of newbies hacking and slashing in the arena get us

While I'm not the biggest fan of the arena idea...

Those newbies eventually become regular players like the rest of us. The problem is only 46% of people are even making a character. That's a whopping 54% of people who never got into Armageddon simply because of character creation. But if they get in, have a good time with their stock character, they actually get to see the game for what it is, and hopefully make a new character.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on October 07, 2014, 09:44:52 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 07, 2014, 09:37:03 PM
No I mean what does an endless stream of newbies hacking and slashing in the arena get us

While I'm not the biggest fan of the arena idea...

Those newbies eventually become regular players like the rest of us. The problem is only 46% of people are even making a character. That's a whopping 54% of people who never got into Armageddon simply because of character creation. But if they get in, have a good time with their stock character, they actually get to see the game for what it is, and hopefully make a new character.

You don't know why they never got into Armageddon. Maybe they never intended to get into it.

Count me in as another person who'd rather see an increase in quality rather than an increase in quantity. This game has a steep learning curve. I'm glad it has a steep learning curve. I've played in games that didn't. I play here, because here is not there.  As in all things - a mud is only as good as its worst player. When we let an unending unfiltered stream of new players in, we become a game of unfiltered new players, with a few seasoned veterans struggling to keep the RP going.

I'd rather see a game that maintains its difficult entry requirements, to weed out the people who have no intention of giving a shit about RP and only want to come to see what some other forum is ranting and raving about, or to find "something to do" while their usual mud is down for maintenance, or because a google search on "mudsex" showed a whole lot of hits on the GDB and they assumed that meant this was a mudsex game.

The entry to get "into" the game isn't impossible. If it were, none of us would be here. We managed to get in, and to play, and to come to love the game, with high standards and high expecations of each other. I don't want to see those standards lowered just for the sake of increased numbers. If it's too hard for John Doe to figure it out, then maybe John Doe doesn't have what it takes to play and we should be glad he went somewhere else. If John Doe doesn't want to have to use his imagination and creativity to make his first character's mdesc and background, then maybe we should be glad he chose to go elsewhere, because if he can't be bothered taking that first step, then he probably won't be interested in contributing much of anything else either.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 07, 2014, 09:37:03 PM
No I mean what does an endless stream of newbies hacking and slashing in the arena get us

I agree with Nyr about the numbers... which should give pause.  However, I doubt the newbies would be all Hack und Slashen.  (There are some pretty serious warnings at login about how this is RPI, and let's be honest, who resorts to a text-based world for hack-and-slash nowadays?  Actually, I have no idea...)

All I was suggesting is that  - at least for me, maybe others - the initial slog through chargen was a turnoff.

If we have a streamlined chargen for "tourists", I think it'd get some people in who otherwise would just get to the 12th screen and go 'meh' (or go 'meh' after waiting for the app to be approved, or more likely, rejected.)  

Quote from: Lizzie on October 07, 2014, 10:00:49 PM

The entry to get "into" the game isn't impossible. If it were, none of us would be here. We managed to get in, and to play, and to come to love the game, with high standards and high expecations of each other. I don't want to see those standards lowered just for the sake of increased numbers. If it's too hard for John Doe to figure it out, then maybe John Doe doesn't have what it takes to play and we should be glad he went somewhere else. If John Doe doesn't want to have to use his imagination and creativity to make his first character's mdesc and background, then maybe we should be glad he chose to go elsewhere, because if he can't be bothered taking that first step, then he probably won't be interested in contributing much of anything else either.

I would consider myself a pretty decent arm player candidate, and I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't bother going through the chargen process for Armageddon if I didn't already understand it and realize it's worth the investment.  Maybe if I had a friend who just couldn't stop talking about the game to motivate me through it...maybe.

The amount of people who are still into playing MUDs is not exactly overwhelming...  If someone is searching for a MUD to play at all, its safe to say there's a high likelihood they're potentially someone who would add value to this game.

Making it easier for them to get into the game and see why it's awesome isn't going to ruin anything.  I think the newbie starting area concept is fantastic...but admittedly a lot of work to build.  I don't want to repost all of my ideas from page 1, but I think a newbie chat channel could also work wonders for helping people with the mechanics of the game.  Eve Online has one, and it got me through the learning curve on that behemoth of a game...it could work for Arm too.

Quote from: Lizzie on October 07, 2014, 10:00:49 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on October 07, 2014, 09:44:52 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 07, 2014, 09:37:03 PM
No I mean what does an endless stream of newbies hacking and slashing in the arena get us

While I'm not the biggest fan of the arena idea...

Those newbies eventually become regular players like the rest of us. The problem is only 46% of people are even making a character. That's a whopping 54% of people who never got into Armageddon simply because of character creation. But if they get in, have a good time with their stock character, they actually get to see the game for what it is, and hopefully make a new character.

You don't know why they never got into Armageddon. Maybe they never intended to get into it.

Count me in as another person who'd rather see an increase in quality rather than an increase in quantity. This game has a steep learning curve. I'm glad it has a steep learning curve. I've played in games that didn't. I play here, because here is not there.  As in all things - a mud is only as good as its worst player. When we let an unending unfiltered stream of new players in, we become a game of unfiltered new players, with a few seasoned veterans struggling to keep the RP going.

I'd rather see a game that maintains its difficult entry requirements, to weed out the people who have no intention of giving a shit about RP and only want to come to see what some other forum is ranting and raving about, or to find "something to do" while their usual mud is down for maintenance, or because a google search on "mudsex" showed a whole lot of hits on the GDB and they assumed that meant this was a mudsex game.

The entry to get "into" the game isn't impossible. If it were, none of us would be here. We managed to get in, and to play, and to come to love the game, with high standards and high expecations of each other. I don't want to see those standards lowered just for the sake of increased numbers. If it's too hard for John Doe to figure it out, then maybe John Doe doesn't have what it takes to play and we should be glad he went somewhere else. If John Doe doesn't want to have to use his imagination and creativity to make his first character's mdesc and background, then maybe we should be glad he chose to go elsewhere, because if he can't be bothered taking that first step, then he probably won't be interested in contributing much of anything else either.

I don't feel this way about the average MUDer. And certainly not the average person who reads about Armageddon and seeks the type of roleplay that is here. I really just don't see it being anywhere near as severe as you do.  Would we possibly get a few bad apples? Sure, but I'm confident staff and the playerbase knows how to either straighten out or weed out those types of players.  I really wouldn't worry about it diluting the playerbase. It would certainly be worth the small instances of someone stepping out of line and getting told what they're doing wrong to have more players.

Quote from: MeTekillot on October 07, 2014, 08:02:37 PM
I think the best time for player run plots was when a player could become a Red Robe or start their own merchant house feasibly. Without, uh, getting stored.


EDIT: well, wrong thread.

I enjoyed this too.  I recognize that senior leadership roles can create some challenges for staff and the game, but they also motivate people, and add a ton of color and excitement.  

Senior Nobles and Merchant House positions particularly seem like they should be allowed.  They're powerful and important, but I would imagine no where near as challenging as a Red Robe in terms of raw power they wield.  Maybe they are allowed?

I'm also under the impression that players CAN start their own merchant houses if they're extremely determined.  I know this was absolutely not allowed at one point, and I recall having a lengthy discussion (i.e. whining) with Nyr about it...but then I saw this page which suggests otherwise:  http://armageddon.org/help/view/Starting%20a%20Clan (http://armageddon.org/help/view/Starting%20a%20Clan).  I'm not going to lie...that page may have contributed to my interest in returning to Armageddon....

Quote from: wizturbo on October 07, 2014, 10:18:47 PM

Senior Nobles and Merchant House positions particularly seem like they should be allowed.  They're powerful and important, but I would imagine no where near as challenging as a Red Robe in terms of raw power they wield.  Maybe they are allowed?

nope

Senior Merchants and Agents have always been allowed.

I love all of these ideas in spirit. I like the auto-gen idea. Here's how we could make it work even better.

Auto characters could be generated, as has been suggested, but let's use the custom tat guy as inspiration for this. When the player says let me in, they get generated with a four sentence desc, matched to sdesc terms. But the only background you get is criminal. You are a criminal, sentenced to fight in the arena. Now, what Militia Leaders and Templars can do is 'release' the ones who display enough drive to be trying to RP. This makes the entire process completely in character.

Scripting in the rooms of the Holding Pens (which are already built, by the way), could be used to 'release' combatants to the arena. The actual Pens could utilize either a calm state, which allows no fighting, or non-lethal take downs by the NPCs there, so we don't instantly turn off the newb when he dies. The Holding Pens could also be turned into a 'school' of sorts, so that when the player is not fighting, they can learn.

Militia Leaders and Templars could be alerted when new players have been in the holding pens for more than ten minutes, so that they can go choose to interact with them if they want to.

Quote from: Adhira on October 07, 2014, 10:51:41 PM
Senior Merchants and Agents have always been allowed.

I was actually about to say "Maybe those are allowed" but I did not want to be wrong. It is better to be half-wrong. Thank you for the clarification  :)


EDIT: that is not a passive-aggressive thank you for your input smiley face by the way i am just trying to be friendly

EDIT EDIT: how do you prove sincerity through text

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on October 07, 2014, 10:56:54 PM
I love all of these ideas in spirit. I like the auto-gen idea. Here's how we could make it work even better.

Auto characters could be generated, as has been suggested, but let's use the custom tat guy as inspiration for this. When the player says let me in, they get generated with a four sentence desc, matched to sdesc terms. But the only background you get is criminal. You are a criminal, sentenced to fight in the arena. Now, what Militia Leaders and Templars can do is 'release' the ones who display enough drive to be trying to RP. This makes the entire process completely in character.

Scripting in the rooms of the Holding Pens (which are already built, by the way), could be used to 'release' combatants to the arena. The actual Pens could utilize either a calm state, which allows no fighting, or non-lethal take downs by the NPCs there, so we don't instantly turn off the newb when he dies. The Holding Pens could also be turned into a 'school' of sorts, so that when the player is not fighting, they can learn.

Militia Leaders and Templars could be alerted when new players have been in the holding pens for more than ten minutes, so that they can go choose to interact with them if they want to.

Pretty neat idea.  I think it might be best to keep the (1) streamlined chargen concept separate from (2) the issue of what to do with all 'em newbs. 

For me personally, I sorta (ducks) don't really kinda (ducks) like the arena or even the macho fighting stuff.  (I do like ultraviolence, however.) 

So my vote would be, for (2), just do nothing (maybe limit them to humans and hometown Nak).  Set them loose at the Gaj, with a generic background / mdesc / sdesc, make sure they see in BIG BAD LETTERS that this is RPI and that you better read the docs, soonish.  I mean 80% of the time, barsitting is super boring at the Gaj anyway, so why not spice it up with some fresh faces? 

I'm also of the (probably wrong-headed idealistic) opinion that the 54% that got away that wouldn't get away via (1) won't be hack/slash or stupid, but people who want to RP in an RPI, but just want to test out the non-waters first.

Since this is pure fantasy, I would deploy these autogenned newbies in some non-disruptive roles.  In the order in which I'd allow newbies to experience them:

Level 1. You're a road slave, carrying rocks around to help build a road.  You can't talk or run; you can just pick up boulders from a source, carry them along a road to some destination. Other PCs can see you but your action set limits interactions to looking and moving.  Once you're out of movement points you collapse and your preview is over.  If you spend too long in a room a slaver whips you until eventually you collapse.

Level 2. You're lost in the desert - a gith raided your caravan and you only barely managed to escape.  You have no sense of direction, your throat is too parched to talk to anyone (you're an ultranewbie and you shouldn't be talking anyway) and you've got about 20 RL minutes before you thirst to death.  If you try to drink water your character just collapses and the preview is done.  Small potential to interact with other PCs.

Level 3. You're an enslaved crafter for House Salarr/Kadius, tied to the room and unable to leave.  Your job is to craft one of each of five simple items (bootlaces, whatever), after which your preview is done.  Salarr/Kadius NPCs can walk into the room to interact with you, whip you, etc.  Greater potential to interact with a limited number of PCs.

Level 4. You're a criminal sentenced to die in the arena.  Every dusk or so the bell tolls and throws all the criminals into the arena, followed by a sequence of increasingly harder beasts until all the newbies are dead.  You can interact with other PCs by emoting as you fight.

I really like that idea, but damn that first one sounds brutal. Made me laugh.

In my mind, it was kind of like the intro to Skyrim, or those RPG maps on Starcraft and shit from back in the day that were 'Fantasy Games'.

When a newbie PC is made, they go through a pre-scripted program -- A caravan being attacked by raiders. They are spared death -- After seeing a bunch of NPCs get killed, parsed out so they can read the scroll, and knocked unconscious. They awaken to find themselves at the gate of the city they chose.

I dunno it sounds cool in my head and my brain has the dumz

Quote from: Reiloth on October 08, 2014, 12:30:56 AM
In my mind, it was kind of like the intro to Skyrim, or those RPG maps on Starcraft and shit from back in the day that were 'Fantasy Games'.

When a newbie PC is made, they go through a pre-scripted program -- A caravan being attacked by raiders. They are spared death -- After seeing a bunch of NPCs get killed, parsed out so they can read the scroll, and knocked unconscious. They awaken to find themselves at the gate of the city they chose.

I dunno it sounds cool in my head and my brain has the dumz

That would be super fucking cool.

I played a MUD that did something like that and, to be honest, I did not really like it very much.

Quote from: CodeMaster on October 08, 2014, 12:11:52 AM
Since this is pure fantasy, I would deploy these autogenned newbies in some non-disruptive roles.  In the order in which I'd allow newbies to experience them:

Level 1. You're a road slave, carrying rocks around to help build a road.  You can't talk or run; you can just pick up boulders from a source, carry them along a road to some destination. Other PCs can see you but your action set limits interactions to looking and moving.  Once you're out of movement points you collapse and your preview is over.  If you spend too long in a room a slaver whips you until eventually you collapse.

Level 2. You're lost in the desert - a gith raided your caravan and you only barely managed to escape.  You have no sense of direction, your throat is too parched to talk to anyone (you're an ultranewbie and you shouldn't be talking anyway) and you've got about 20 RL minutes before you thirst to death.  If you try to drink water your character just collapses and the preview is done.  Small potential to interact with other PCs.

Level 3. You're an enslaved crafter for House Salarr/Kadius, tied to the room and unable to leave.  Your job is to craft one of each of five simple items (bootlaces, whatever), after which your preview is done.  Salarr/Kadius NPCs can walk into the room to interact with you, whip you, etc.  Greater potential to interact with a limited number of PCs.

Level 4. You're a criminal sentenced to die in the arena.  Every dusk or so the bell tolls and throws all the criminals into the arena, followed by a sequence of increasingly harder beasts until all the newbies are dead.  You can interact with other PCs by emoting as you fight.

As a newbie whos only just recently joined.

I wouuld say i'dve loved an intro like that. as an avid roleplayer and a newbie.

I think the true key to increasing Armageddon's playerbase numbers is focusing on retaining veteran players. Armageddon is hard. It is hard for smart people who are intelligent gamers. I've brought in a ton of our current vets, and I've tried to bring in a ton of other people. Some of them work out, and the ones that don't tell me straight, "This game is too hard to learn.". Honestly, no amount of documentation or coaching was ever going to help them. They simply weren't right for this game.

Our quality of roleplay is far superior to other MUDs due to the fact we have a slow trickle of new players that have a large base of veterans to watch and learn from and that are willing to keep them in check and teach them.

Those veteran players are the key to keeping the quality of our playerbase high. No amount of documentation or scripted starting rooms are going to make good quality roleplayers out of newbs. The only thing that does that is a self-policing force of veterans to teach our newbs as they come into the world.

If we suddenly had an influx of 100+ newbies at a time hitting our server because we made the entry process more relaxed, the veterans wouldn't be able to keep these guys in check and teach them by example. It would be overwhelming. It would be a big giant newbie circle-jerk of newbies trying to roleplay with newbies and seeing that as the norm, instead of a few newbies surrounded by a ton of veterans showing them what the norm actually is.

Our veteran playerbase is what makes this game. Not the amount of newbies we get in. When I started playing this game our peak playerbase was around 20 to 30 people on average. An RPT that hit 40 - 50 was a big deal. It's double that most of the time now. I've played a lot these days where it is triple that. It took many years to get to that point but the quality of roleplay was maintained on the path to getting there.

I think Armageddon is a game where we want our playerbase to grow slowly over time. I'm fine with our current rate of progression.

The real scary thing is when we lose veterans because they have been jaded. Every lost veteran isn't just a lost player. It is a lost teacher and lost recruiter of countless new players. The focus should be on making sure we don't alienate our teachers and our recruiters first, since they are not only the best source of quantity, but also the ONLY source of quality.

(See last month. The only new players we even got that are still playing were referred by other players.)

Quote from: Desertman on October 08, 2014, 11:11:25 AM

If we suddenly had an influx of 100+ newbies at a time hitting our server because we made the entry process more relaxed, the veterans wouldn't be able to keep these guys in check and teach them by example. It would be overwhelming. It would be a big giant newbie circle-jerk of newbies trying to roleplay with newbies and seeing that as the norm, instead of a few newbies surrounded by a ton of veterans showing them what the norm actually is.

I think the doomsday scenario you're making a case for, where newbies invade the MUD and crowd out the veterans, would require a lot more than pre-gen newbie characters.   I think a conservative best case scenario is a 50-100% improvement over our current conversion rates, that's going from 22% -> 44% on accounts created that at least log in to their characters.  The 100+ newbies in a short time window scenario you're eluding to in your post would require much higher conversion rates, on top of a much greater number of people creating new accounts.  Keep in mind, these changes would only affect conversion, not the number of people creating accounts.

• That means after 30 days, we would have 6-8 new, engaged players vs. the ~4 we saw this month.  
• That would come out to an extra 30-40 engaged players a year, on top of our current acquisition rate.  
• After the first year, that would equate to +4-6 concurrent players at any given time, and of course more than that during RPT's or peak play hours.  
• If these assumptions hold true, after three years, the average number of players who come up on "who" would probably be ~20 higher than it is today.

Essentially, it would push prime time concurrency into the concurrency that's generally only reserved for RPTs or weekends, but on a daily basis.  Of course RPT's would see even higher concurrency.  I don't know about you, but that sounds pretty amazing to me.  I can think of no downside, except perhaps we'd need more staff to handle all the extra stuff going on all the time.

We can throw hypothetical numbers with no backing at all at each other all day, but that isn't going to prove anything for either of us.

All I know is I don't want "dicktowel" the elf being let into the game for any reason ever. I certainly don't want five or six a day being let into the game every single day of the week because they didn't have to go through an application process.

Eh.  I don't think any business/community ever flourished with a strategy that caters to old veterans over attracting new members.  I think a lot of veteran attrition is actually just unavoidable (burnout, lifestyle changes).

That's not to say that the staff should leave us old fogies to wallow in our jadedness.  There has to be balance.  

But if there is any tilt, I think it should tilt towards getting fresh blood into the game.  New energy, new ideas (after some seasoning).  People who are excited to play concepts we've seen a hundred times before, since it's still fresh to them.

That said, I don't think we can just let brand new players roll into the Gaj with a pre-gen 5 minutes after finding us on TMC.  Part of the application process is to ensure that new players have at least read enough docs to conform with the game's theme and style.

Plopping a bunch of newbs into a separate instance of the game won't help either.  You'll just have the blind leading the blind without any actual knowledge injects.

BUT.  Maybe I'd be down for a live newbie school if it had teachers... I dunno.  Hold on, spinning off a brainstorming thread.

I love that you guys care so much about this. (I do too.)

Quote from: Talia on October 08, 2014, 02:03:53 PM
I love that you guys care so much about this. (I do too.)

Yeah, I'm loving this thread.

Quote from: Desertman on October 08, 2014, 01:48:23 PM
We can throw hypothetical numbers with no backing at all at each other all day, but that isn't going to prove anything for either of us.

All I know is I don't want "dicktowel" the elf being let into the game for any reason ever. I certainly don't want five or six a day being let into the game every single day of the week because they didn't have to go through an application process.

I must agree with the "dicktowel" comment.  I don't want this either.  I hope that was just a colorful anecdote that Talia added and not a super frequent occurrence?

Quote from: Marauder Moe on October 08, 2014, 01:58:01 PM
Eh.  I don't think any business/community ever flourished with a strategy that caters to old veterans over attracting new members.

But what if the analogy changes, and instead of analogizing players to customers, players are viewed as employees? Most businesses focus on retaining workers in an effort to reduce the costs of high turnover, to reduce the loss of institutional memory, and to maintain morale.

Quote from: Desertman on October 08, 2014, 01:48:23 PM
All I know is I don't want "dicktowel" the elf being let into the game for any reason ever. I certainly don't want five or six a day being let into the game every single day of the week because they didn't have to go through an application process.

In general, I'm in favor of your thesis in this thread (see above), but I'm okay with so-so newbies joining the game. "Dicktowel" might be a BIT much, but I can remember a certain "Jerusalem Rivers" who panned out nicely.

I don't think OR is the correct word in this discussion. I think we want to retain d players AND attract new ones. I'm guessing you mostly agree. I thought wizturbo had great ideas.

With regards to conversion on new players, I would say, let's start with easier things first. What if there was an ooc room for new accounts. No descs. Just a place where they could get some help making a pc, where helpers could get them through that hurdle.

Newbie Chanel where helpers and/or staff could answer questions. At the start you'd be told how to opt out. After 48 hours on your PC you'll be reminded that you  can opt out.

Quote from: Barzalene on October 08, 2014, 03:10:45 PM
With regards to conversion on new players, I would say, let's start with easier things first. What if there was an ooc room for new accounts. No descs. Just a place where they could get some help making a pc, where helpers could get them through that hurdle.

At the very least, is there some kind of a notice during chargen (especially as you generate your first character) that you can use the helper chat then, too?  Just like:


OK, creating new character.
***
Reminder:
This can be a challenging step for new players, but there is a help chat
that you can access on the website (http://www.armageddon.org/) and
someone may be able to guide you through each step of the process.
***
What is your character's name? Dickto^H^H^H^H^H^H


Quote from: Desertman on October 08, 2014, 11:11:25 AM
The focus should be on making sure we don't alienate our teachers and our recruiters first, since they are not only the best source of quantity, but also the ONLY source of quality.

A focus on better communication, respect, and understanding is important, but it does entail work from both sides and acceptance of at least some common ground rules.  It also isn't exactly a very good focus as a primary focus.  Don't get me wrong, it's good to do the things I mentioned, for their own merits.  I think Moe has a good point here earlier too.  What I'm saying is that it's not good to put as our primary goal, "don't alienate people that are currently not feeling the game for what could be a myriad of reasons, none of which are necessarily the full story that might be available from a staff perspective."

Staff members are human beings.  As such, they may well make mistakes.  Something a staff member does or says might offend a player, upset them, disturb them, or utterly alienate them from the game.  A staff member may do something that is against staff rules.  Anything is possible because of the fact that staff members are human beings and human beings make mistakes.

Players are also human beings.  As such, they may well make mistakes.  Something a player does might be wrong, misguided, completely against the rules, etc.

Ultimately, staff members (and at the highest level, the Producers) are the arbiters of these mistakes.  A ground rule that would be nice (but isn't something anyone necessarily has to agree to, it being the Internet) would be to go into any disagreement with the understanding that staff do have the best interests of the game at heart and are working to make it better.  Another good one (but also isn't something anyone has to agree to, see:  the Internet) would be that maybe, just maybe, you're "wrong"--whoever you might be.  However, one common ground rule that must be accepted by all parties is that the Producers are the final say on things.  If you disagree with that in a formalized process, you've gone through every single avenue to handle something and the people at the highest level have told you (in consensus) that X is the case.

When players do those things (doing something that looks like a mistake), staff members have an expectation to go and deal with those things.  This is not just an expectation in the sense that "it would be a great idea if staff did this but they certainly do not have to," it's something all staff are supposed to do.  If they don't do it that's not a good thing.  We know that.  That is why we are expected to do it. This starts with communication from staff to the player, and it ends with an appropriate response as deemed by staff.  This (the formalized process for communicating with a player that is doing something that is not what staff expect, even if it's an issue of encouragement towards RPing better) happens often enough that it may as well be something that is expected to happen every time.  Players should not have adverse action (read: punishment, disciplinary action, whatever you want to call it) taken against their account or PC without being notified.  Depending on what happened, the corrective action might happen prior to or at the same time as the e-mail.  (Example:  "We banned you on the discussion board earlier because you went off on a diatribe and flamed several players.  We took a bit to e-mail you because we wanted to first deal with the crap you were putting up on the board and ensure you wouldn't be doing that anymore.")  As a measure to deal with the "maybe, just maybe, staff is 'wrong'", we have actual review in place--STs report to admins, admins report to producers, and there is accountability between staff members.

When staff members do those things (doing something that looks like a mistake), players do not have that same expectation to attempt redress, appeal, or point out the problem.  By that, I mean that a player doesn't have any onus on them to actually follow any guidelines or grievance airing process, even though those things actually do exist.  Staff have a ton of rules and procedures for handling things.  Players do not.  Players have very few rules they must follow.  Sharing IC info, multiplaying, botting, and GDB rules.  Even when they violate those, they still have staff going through the above process. 

Players can choose to just "be" jaded, do nothing about it, and make snide remarks wherever to whomever, and either get over it eventually or let it fester forever.  That's fine, I suppose, but it doesn't get anything done and staff won't necessarily know that something might be up or could be clarified because we can't read minds (see above on humans and their abilities/limitations).  Even if we see someone being snarky here and there on the boards, we don't go out of our way to talk to them until they've actually broken some rule, because people are complex and they may just be having a bad day rather than be a jaded veteran of the game. 

Players can choose to do the previous and/or put in a staff complaint that is pretty much them venting about how x or y staffer is a piece of shit, etc without actually addressing anything solid (yeah, we've seen actual complaints like that before).  That's not really appropriate, and usually the player isn't expecting to get a completely in-agreement response from the Producers that says "wow, we totally agree, x or y staffer IS a piece of shit!  We've given them that title and banned them from the game!"  They are complaining to complain, maybe just to say they "followed the process" to other people and then continue to be jaded about their "reasonable complaint" being "totally ignored" by the iron-fisted staff. 

Players can also choose to put in a reasonable complaint--discussing something grounded in reality, with the expectation that they might actually not have all of the facts or might be wrong, probably even with a little bit of reasonable venting involved, and expect the Producers to investigate and provide a reasonable response.  Reasonable complaints that result in something being changed, done, or corrected are usually more rare.  Most fall between the extremes of crazy conspiracy land and completely reasonable.

As for staff, we've got these avenues out there, we're already "here" and open to talk to, and we have quite a few more players to be concerned with that are here and now and willing to engage in dialogue or play the game itself.

Quote from: wizturbo on October 08, 2014, 02:26:21 PM

Quote from: Desertman on October 08, 2014, 01:48:23 PM
We can throw hypothetical numbers with no backing at all at each other all day, but that isn't going to prove anything for either of us.

All I know is I don't want "dicktowel" the elf being let into the game for any reason ever. I certainly don't want five or six a day being let into the game every single day of the week because they didn't have to go through an application process.

I must agree with the "dicktowel" comment.  I don't want this either.  I hope that was just a colorful anecdote that Talia added and not a super frequent occurrence?

I'd say it's more of a super frequent occurrence than a colourful anecdote.

Quote from: Adhira on October 08, 2014, 03:35:44 PM
I'd say it's more of a super frequent occurrence than a colourful anecdote.

:'(

Quote from: wizturbo on October 08, 2014, 03:38:57 PM

Quote from: Adhira on October 08, 2014, 03:35:44 PM
I'd say it's more of a super frequent occurrence than a colourful anecdote.

:'(

To elaborate a bit, with the exception of a very few apps from veteran players, almost all of the "Rejected" apps you see on the weekly update come from brand new accounts whose app was so off base it couldn't be "saved". What I mean by that is that generally, if we see a new player who made an honest effort to write an application but got a few things wrong in their background or description, we almost always edit those details and approve their application. The ones that get rejected are those that put no effort into the app at all - like our friend dicktowel, or players who gave us less than a single complete sentence of description and background.

Some staff members go even farther and don't reject any apps at all, but instead paste in a whole new generic character for the new player to try. I'm not aware of a case where this has actually "saved" a player, but maybe it will some day.

So that will help give you an idea of the sort of numbers of junk apps we're getting. Rejections are anywhere between 10% and 50% of new apps in a given week, depending on how high we are in TMS/TMC and who's quickest on approving apps that week.

That's kind of funny because many of our veterans would probably eventually name their characters something like Dicktowel (or at least the Zalanthean) version of Dicktowel and it's totally IC.

Like when I named one of my elf "The Dungster" or my famous sorcerer Poopiehead The Wicked.

Quote from: Adhira on October 08, 2014, 03:35:44 PM

Quote from: wizturbo on October 08, 2014, 02:26:21 PM

Quote from: Desertman on October 08, 2014, 01:48:23 PM
We can throw hypothetical numbers with no backing at all at each other all day, but that isn't going to prove anything for either of us.

All I know is I don't want "dicktowel" the elf being let into the game for any reason ever. I certainly don't want five or six a day being let into the game every single day of the week because they didn't have to go through an application process.

I must agree with the "dicktowel" comment.  I don't want this either.  I hope that was just a colorful anecdote that Talia added and not a super frequent occurrence?

I'd say it's more of a super frequent occurrence than a colourful anecdote.

plus this from Rahnevyn:

Quote(stuff and then) So that will help give you an idea of the sort of numbers of junk apps we're getting. Rejections are anywhere between 10% and 50% of new apps in a given week, depending on how high we are in TMS/TMC and who's quickest on approving apps that week.

...and some players are trying to figure out how to attract the particular set of newbies that would find chargen to be too hard and therefore should get auto-genned characters and backgrounds?

So then they get their first PC PKed the first day, and gen up more of that 10-50% of rejectables - thus driving the rejectable percentage up AND making more work for the staff, JUST so you can increase numbers without thought to quality?

Blech. Blech and more blech.

Are we still sending out the emails to our veterans who quit the game to ask them why they left and what we could do to get them back?

It was one of these emails that got me playing again actually after I quit for over two years.

Quote from: Desertman on October 08, 2014, 04:31:10 PM
Are we still sending out the emails to our veterans who quit the game to ask them why they left and what we could do to get them back?

It was one of these emails that got me playing again actually after I quit for over two years.

I sent one out earlier this year.  Only to folks identified in the where survey as having started in the past 6 or 7 years.  Beyond that I'd have to get some better tools to find older player accounts.

Quote from: Lizzie on October 08, 2014, 04:26:12 PM
...and some players are trying to figure out how to attract the particular set of newbies that would find chargen to be too hard and therefore should get auto-genned characters and backgrounds?

So then they get their first PC PKed the first day, and gen up more of that 10-50% of rejectables - thus driving the rejectable percentage up AND making more work for the staff, JUST so you can increase numbers without thought to quality?

Blech. Blech and more blech.

Mmm, all those so-easy-to-excuse PKs though....

In seriousness, I think I'm with Lizzie. I would rather us focus our attentions on making our game accessible to those players who might just be daunted by the number of docs, or the format of playing a MuD, or some other mechanic, but really like the idea of playing an RPI. You know, people who aren't going to name their character dick towel and try to kill someone in the Gaj right out of the gate.

Quote from: Nyr on October 08, 2014, 04:32:16 PM

Quote from: Desertman on October 08, 2014, 04:31:10 PM
Are we still sending out the emails to our veterans who quit the game to ask them why they left and what we could do to get them back?

It was one of these emails that got me playing again actually after I quit for over two years.

I sent one out earlier this year.  Only to folks identified in the where survey as having started in the past 6 or 7 years.  Beyond that I'd have to get some better tools to find older player accounts.

*nod* *nod*

Quote from: Talia on October 06, 2014, 05:01:15 PM
Actual logins (created a character that was approved and they logged in):  43 (22%)
1 hour or less in playtime: 11
1-2 hours of playtime:  11
2-6 hours of playtime:  9
6-20 hours of playtime:  10
20+ hours of playtime:  2
Of all these, appear to still be playing: 4 (all were referred by friends) (2%)

I think we're worrying too much about the people who never logged in, and not enough about the large majority of those who legitimately started playing but then stopped.

17 out of 22 who played Arm for more than two hours didn't come back!  Why?

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on October 08, 2014, 05:41:22 PM

I think we're worrying too much about the people who never logged in, and not enough about the large majority of those who legitimately started playing but then stopped.

17 out of 22 who played Arm for more than two hours didn't come back!  Why?

Intuitively this one kind of makes sense to me...  This game just isn't for everybody.  It's not a hack'n'slash, let loose kind of MUD.    It's perma-death.  Players are often ENCOURAGED to abuse your character. 

I expect only a one in five to stay.

In my experience for a wealth of reasons. I believe Nyr actually looked at this before, seeing what each individual player was doing. It seems most of the time the ones who leave never run into another player, or they do and no role-play actually happens, they just stare at nothingness inside a bar.

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on October 08, 2014, 05:41:22 PM

Quote from: Talia on October 06, 2014, 05:01:15 PM
Actual logins (created a character that was approved and they logged in):  43 (22%)
1 hour or less in playtime: 11
1-2 hours of playtime:  11
2-6 hours of playtime:  9
6-20 hours of playtime:  10
20+ hours of playtime:  2
Of all these, appear to still be playing: 4 (all were referred by friends) (2%)

I think we're worrying too much about the people who never logged in, and not enough about the large majority of those who legitimately started playing but then stopped.

17 out of 22 who played Arm for more than two hours didn't come back!  Why?

Some of it might have the same source.  I'm tempted to think that allowing people to start in the Rinth / Storm and areas where the playerbase is either super low or too cool for school (hidden) is a bad idea, or letting them start as an elf: they'll be like: why nobody playing with me?  Meh.  Quit.  Hence, I'd advocate HUGELY encouraging or forcing them to choose human and choose Nak.  (I'm biased since I like to interact with people on MUDs.)  It's also two jozhals one stone: they only need to read up on humans and Nak, and can learn IG about the rest (or go back to the docs).

We already restrict starting location to Allanak or Tuluk for a new character, although their character can choose their hometown as 'rinth. Storm, or Luir's as well.

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on October 08, 2014, 05:41:22 PM
I think we're worrying too much about the people who never logged in, and not enough about the large majority of those who legitimately started playing but then stopped.

17 out of 22 who played Arm for more than two hours didn't come back!  Why?

I just went and looked at the data again and did some cursory poking of the ones who played 2+ hours but didn't stay. It looks like the majority of them logged in multiple times, sometimes for many minutes (45 mins+ at a stretch), but...they were off-peak :/

Quote from: Talia on October 08, 2014, 06:05:06 PM

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on October 08, 2014, 05:41:22 PM
I think we're worrying too much about the people who never logged in, and not enough about the large majority of those who legitimately started playing but then stopped.

17 out of 22 who played Arm for more than two hours didn't come back!  Why?

I just went and looked at the data again and did some cursory poking of the ones who played 2+ hours but didn't stay. It looks like the majority of them logged in multiple times, sometimes for many minutes (45 mins+ at a stretch), but...they were off-peak :/

Could always do like an echo when a new newbie starts out to try and draw somebody over?

A bell rings, pealing its macabre glee across the city.

Quote from: Case on October 08, 2014, 06:10:00 PM
Could always do like an echo when a new newbie starts out to try and draw somebody over?

You feel a very fresh victim for your elven scams is surely somewhere nearby...maybe in the Gaj.

:D

Yeah, I don't know. It's a good idea! I do think we all know that it's interaction that will pull people into the game.

What about some sort of map showing where clusters of players have been in the Known over a 24hr period? Could restrict it to the main cities and have a delay on it. The goal would be to give people an idea of where the players are in their time zone without tipping people off to large movements which might signal plots.

Every time you hear some hoots a newbie gets his boots.

One of the things I like about pre-gen descriptions is that it identifies the player as a newbie.  I'd certainly be willing to juice up the interaction with a newbie, if I knew they were a newbie and not someone who was just sitting at the bar waiting for dawn, reading the IC boards.

I'll admit, for most my characters it wouldn't be super IC for them to suddenly be chatty to some random guy...  But I'm willing to break character a tiny bit if it means a noob might get a taste of the game.

Maybe some kind of newbie tag could be applied?  That sounds dumb after writing it, but maybe it's not a horrible direction to go?

Oh I'll give a newbie a taste of the game...

Quote from: Case on October 08, 2014, 06:10:00 PM

Quote from: Talia on October 08, 2014, 06:05:06 PM

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on October 08, 2014, 05:41:22 PM
I think we're worrying too much about the people who never logged in, and not enough about the large majority of those who legitimately started playing but then stopped.

17 out of 22 who played Arm for more than two hours didn't come back!  Why?

I just went and looked at the data again and did some cursory poking of the ones who played 2+ hours but didn't stay. It looks like the majority of them logged in multiple times, sometimes for many minutes (45 mins+ at a stretch), but...they were off-peak :/

Could always do like an echo when a new newbie starts out to try and draw somebody over?

I like this idea.   Offpeak can be DEADLY BORING, and most of the time my PCs just wander around looking in every corner for a PC to interact with. Maybe a NOTIFY command (with obviously the option to opt in) that would tell people opted in that someone is around.  It would only work in certain spots (bars), and scope would be limited to your city (hence: NOTIFY in the Gaj notifies folks in Allanak and its regions and notify in whatever that one up there in Tuluk would do the same).  Wouldn't even have to restrict it to newbies, frankly.  (I'm probably in the minority in wanting this sort of system wide.  SoI has a Notify command that I think is nice.)

Quote from: nauta on October 08, 2014, 06:43:41 PM

Quote from: Case on October 08, 2014, 06:10:00 PM

Quote from: Talia on October 08, 2014, 06:05:06 PM

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on October 08, 2014, 05:41:22 PM
I think we're worrying too much about the people who never logged in, and not enough about the large majority of those who legitimately started playing but then stopped.

17 out of 22 who played Arm for more than two hours didn't come back!  Why?

I just went and looked at the data again and did some cursory poking of the ones who played 2+ hours but didn't stay. It looks like the majority of them logged in multiple times, sometimes for many minutes (45 mins+ at a stretch), but...they were off-peak :/

Could always do like an echo when a new newbie starts out to try and draw somebody over?

I like this idea.   Offpeak can be DEADLY BORING, and most of the time my PCs just wander around looking in every corner for a PC to interact with. Maybe a NOTIFY command (with obviously the option to opt in) that would tell people opted in that someone is around.  It would only work in certain spots (bars), and scope would be limited to your city (hence: NOTIFY in the Gaj notifies folks in Allanak and its regions and notify in whatever that one up there in Tuluk would do the same).  Wouldn't even have to restrict it to newbies, frankly.  (I'm probably in the minority in wanting this sort of system wide.  SoI has a Notify command that I think is nice.)

The issue here lies in if someone uses notify command often, and then stops using it, then suddenly you don't see them do it anymore...

Hey there! New player here.

I'm a roleplayer from SA-MP (San Andreas Multiplayer), for five years. SAMP Roleplaying sucks compared to what a MUD with Enforced Roleplay offers (literally). Literally, most of the playerbase of SAMP is made out of roleplayers. I believe if you guys advertised the SAMP public you could probably get a lot of players. Hardcore Roleplayers are really frustrated over the fact that these servers don't offer good experiences (unlike the few hours of MUDing I've received, which has been awesome, I love the details).

G'Day, and very nice MUD. I'm defo staying here for quite a while.

That really is not a source of players that I considered, heh. Who woulda thought? You know you can advertise for us, if you like.

Quote from: deskoft on October 12, 2014, 05:00:04 PM
Hey there! New player here.

I'm a roleplayer from SA-MP (San Andreas Multiplayer), for five years. SAMP Roleplaying sucks compared to what a MUD with Enforced Roleplay offers (literally). Literally, most of the playerbase of SAMP is made out of roleplayers. I believe if you guys advertised the SAMP public you could probably get a lot of players. Hardcore Roleplayers are really frustrated over the fact that these servers don't offer good experiences (unlike the few hours of MUDing I've received, which has been awesome, I love the details).

G'Day, and very nice MUD. I'm defo staying here for quite a while.

Welcome! You're heading into this game with a great attitude. This game is indeed a role play intensive game, with an emphasis on the intense.

Yeah, I'm trying to bring some friends from SAMP over!

Thanks for the welcome.

good thread. I started playing in 2001 so I guess I'll tell my story too of why I stopped playing.

In short my video game time dropped to about 10 hours a week, and I don't want to spend all 10 of those in Armageddon.

I tried being different flavor characters from the byn, to the wilds, and to the rinth. But I wasn't around enough to make any consistent connections. This game is tough without them. I feel like you need at least 6 hours a week to play. Maybe I should try a beggar next?

Regardless I gave up and just content myself with just voting a few times a week on TMS and TMC.

Anyway, goodluck! Message me for MUSHclient help :)

Quote from: Agent_137 on October 14, 2014, 12:27:21 AM
good thread. I started playing in 2001 so I guess I'll tell my story too of why I stopped playing.

In short my video game time dropped to about 10 hours a week, and I don't want to spend all 10 of those in Armageddon.

I tried being different flavor characters from the byn, to the wilds, and to the rinth. But I wasn't around enough to make any consistent connections. This game is tough without them. I feel like you need at least 6 hours a week to play. Maybe I should try a beggar next?

Regardless I gave up and just content myself with just voting a few times a week on TMS and TMC.

Anyway, goodluck! Message me for MUSHclient help :)

We miss you homie.

Come back.