So this little exchange I had with Rhyden earlier gave me an idea..
Quote from: Malken on May 20, 2014, 02:50:37 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on May 20, 2014, 02:46:03 PM
I basically wish sneaky types weren't 'outed' the first time they fail a steal attempt on a PC. I think it'd encourage a little more PvP when it comes to theft.
When you mostly always see the same 10 PCs around, stealing from them isn't the smartest of ideas :-\
It's not a large pool of PCs, so you kinda always know who the pickpocket is, or might be.. Unlike in 'Nak, where there's a lot more elves and guild PCs around.
It really wouldn't surprise me if some of the wealthy Tuluki PCs would buy a 1000 'sids license on my pickpocket because they somewhat know that I'm the only pickpocket around and their favorite sword is missing.
What if the different ranks of shadow artists offered some increasing 'protection' as the shadow artist goes up in ranks?
At novice, you wouldn't have any protection at all against licenses bought against you.
At journeyman, it would cost a lot more to buy a contract against a licensed shadow artist, to show that he is becoming of worth to the city.
As a master shadow artist, this artist would be the pride of Tuluk and would be nearly untouchable unless a contract was bought by a Templar or a Noble itself, no one else would be deemed wealthy enough to touch such an 'elite' member of society.
To add to my idea, I also thought of another idea to 'protect' proper and licensed criminals in Tuluk:
As a novice or above, you would actually be told if a contract had been bought against you, some sort of traditional Tuluki hunting game could be then played, where the hunted either tries to avoid the hunter's trap or tries to lure him into a trap of their own. If the hunted assassin/thief/whatever manages to survive the duration of the contract's limit, he gains 'prestige' of sort and buying another contract against that person would cost twice as much depending on what rank this shadow artist is. If the hunted actually manages to KILL or incapacitate his hunter in any ways, he also gains prestige but it also counts into his future promotion as a shadow artist because this artist shows both promise and competence at outwitting other artists.
Regardless of how I feel about this, an artist at the wrong end of a contract ending up in trouble seems unfit for the job.
hm. last time I played a burglar in tuluk, a long while ago, I had no complaints.
As to these ideas.. doesn't the phrase "be the change" apply here rather nicely?
I think this is already sort of how the Templars do it- they can discourage contracts against artists simply because a contract was completed against them. I mean, it doesn't make sense for them to have their own tools killed off unless circumstances are really strong.
So I think it's a great idea. I think it's already kind of how it works out in game.
Quote from: Malken on May 20, 2014, 05:45:43 PM
To add to my idea, I also thought of another idea to 'protect' proper and licensed criminals in Tuluk:
As a novice or above, you would actually be told if a contract had been bought against you, some sort of traditional Tuluki hunting game could be then played, where the hunted either tries to avoid the hunter's trap or tries to lure him into a trap of their own. If the hunted assassin/thief/whatever manages to survive the duration of the contract's limit, he gains 'prestige' of sort and buying another contract against that person would cost twice as much depending on what rank this shadow artist is. If the hunted actually manages to KILL or incapacitate his hunter in any ways, he also gains prestige but it also counts into his future promotion as a shadow artist because this artist shows both promise and competence at outwitting other artists.
I especially liked this idea.
If you don't have an assassination contract out on you, you're not playing the game right.
Play harder.
Put a contract on yourself.
Quote from: Knight of Knives on May 20, 2014, 06:26:26 PM
I think this is already sort of how the Templars do it- they can discourage contracts against artists simply because a contract was completed against them. I mean, it doesn't make sense for them to have their own tools killed off unless circumstances are really strong.
So I think it's a great idea. I think it's already kind of how it works out in game.
I would tend to agree, that's how it works out IG with RP.
I think I meant more codedly, I wish people couldn't discover who rifled through their belongings, or peeked at their belongings, even on a critical failure. It leads to a game of Clue!
I feel like that way, it would behoove thieves to steal in public, in crowded places where many culprits could be blamed or spotted, and to remain inconspicuous and 'among the crowd'. If they are in a hallway with someone, and they critically fail...Well. No one else to blame, really, chummer.
Quote from: Jingo on May 21, 2014, 02:41:47 AM
Play harder.
Put a contract on yourself.
You feel like it has been far too long since you had any challenges or excitement in life.
You contact the frail, auburn-haired woman with the Way.
You send the a telepathic message to the frail, auburn-haired woman,
"Good morning, High Faithful, I do hope all is well. Do you have any particularly useful but annoying shadow artists to spare?"
A foreign presence contacts your mind.
The frail, auburn-haired woman sends to you,
"That time of year again already, Lord Longlived? I actually have the perfect candidate to send your way. We can settle up the contract fee later in the week if you'd like. Good hunting."
A foreign presence withdraws from your mind.
You slip a long, silver blade from beneath a silken bedrobe.
You begins sharpening a long, silver blade with a finely grained stone.
You begin watching the western exit.
You feel alive again... for a little while.
That just seems like a ridiculously concept. Especially as a novice Shadow Artist. You could eliminate all the competition by sending them right at you.
i think this would only apply to master artists. And in doing so, they would just be notified that a perhaps a contract was taken out on them. They have to treat this in a gentlemanly fashion. I.E. not run. But see if they can "beat" the contract. It would only be done to master artists out of respect from the Templarate for both their years of service and over-all talent.
But this has nothing really to do with criminals overall, I think.
Edit:
To really help criminals in Tuluk, 3 things need to happen (IMO).
1. The PC base need accept the fact that theirs an area in the city where things aren't exactly spic-span-and-ivory-white in color. They're murder echoes. Fights in bars happen. It's shady. Don't treat it like the Friel's Rest.
2. Criminals need more of a structure. I'm not talking about shadow artist. This apparently was there during UnderTuluk (didn't play then). But they -need- some sort of structure from the staff side.
3. A certain role that is integral in Tuluk needs to be fallible. No one is perfect. No one never gets duped. This does -not- mean that criminals get a pass or a loose leash. But that the same time God-Mode-Turn-On, shouldn't work against them either (an exaggeration). 3 can be solved via 2.
Hopefully this would be done via players but I've said it before and I'll say it again. Playing a real, low-class, poor criminal in Tuluk, is Armageddon hard mode. You're basically playing a turd. And typically people in Tuluk don't like to get turds on their silks :)
Quote from: Dakota on May 21, 2014, 10:01:01 AM
2. Criminals need more of a structure. I'm not talking about shadow artist. This apparently was there during UnderTuluk (didn't play then). But they -need- some sort of structure from the staff side.
The "criminal" structure in UT was entirely player-created and player-maintained. Staff rarely had anything to do with it at all.
There's actually more of a support system for "criminals" in the Warrens, in the form of the Bejewelled Hand.
I'm putting criminal in scare quotes, because none of the above necessarily thinks of themselves as criminals. The point stands: you could app an Bejewelled Hand shady if you wanted to use the structure in place. Or you could do like we did in UT and roll your own.
This implies, of course, that the Akai has (and can have) people in it.
Quote from: Patuk on May 21, 2014, 01:01:35 PM
This implies, of course, that the Akai has (and can have) people in it.
When there's an obvious problem, I think it should be addressed right away instead of pulling out the tired "give it time, or be the change, or app for an Akai!". The fact that the "major" "criminal" area is supervised by elves, and that elves have never really been a popular choice of race for Tuluki PCs (and that Akai PCs have been nearly non-existent ever since it was introduced, minus the first who played one and we all know whom I'm talking about) just shows that there needs to be a change to who's in "charge" of the warrens. (It could certainly happen ICly if Staff is not overly protective of the idea of the Akai).
Oh, I'm not disagreeing at all. Hell, I've some nasty memories from my own Akai.
I agree.
I never really thought the Akai had a good 'place' in Zalanthas or in Tuluk.
Mastercrafting Elves who make beautiful monument structures? Elves who are venerated in society above other elves?
I think it was one of those great ideas (make more elf tribes), but I think these things can be built organically, rather than be plopped down in the middle of things with a vast history as if they've always been there.
Having a few small elf tribes in either City State that could be used as a background, and send character reports to Desert Elf Tribes, and build organically from there...Well. That might be a cool thing. Depending on the players/PCs, the tribe might rise...Or might fall.
I agree that it would be nice if there was a vague 'regime change' in the Warrens.
A clan whos focus was crime would help criminals.
Quote from: Malken on May 21, 2014, 01:44:10 PM
The fact that the "major" "criminal" area is supervised by elves, and that elves have never really been a popular choice of race for Tuluki PCs (and that Akai PCs have been nearly non-existent ever since it was introduced, minus the first who played one and we all know whom I'm talking about) just shows that there needs to be a change to who's in "charge" of the warrens. (It could certainly happen ICly if Staff is not overly protective of the idea of the Akai).
I asked for Akai docs so I could roll one up last week and got told they were closed
and they weren't planning on changing that for the forseeable future. Staff certainly didn't sound overly protective of them.EDIT: the actual response was:
Quote
The Akai are currently not open for play. We hope to make this change in the sometime future, but there is no timeline as of right now.
I figure that they were closed due to not seeing any Akai around IC.
The website should probably be updated if they're actually closed.
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Akai%20Sjir
I might want to stop saying that tribeless celves need more support when somehow the ones with tribes aren't even looked after.
Quote from: Barsook on May 21, 2014, 02:56:09 PM
I figure that they were closed due to not seeing any Akai around IC.
I thought it was the other way around, they closed because nobody wanted to play them. (I don't think I'm wrong in saying that a majority of the playerbase really hates the idea of that clan).
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 21, 2014, 02:54:41 PM
Quote from: Malken on May 21, 2014, 01:44:10 PM
The fact that the "major" "criminal" area is supervised by elves, and that elves have never really been a popular choice of race for Tuluki PCs (and that Akai PCs have been nearly non-existent ever since it was introduced, minus the first who played one and we all know whom I'm talking about) just shows that there needs to be a change to who's in "charge" of the warrens. (It could certainly happen ICly if Staff is not overly protective of the idea of the Akai).
I asked for Akai docs so I could roll one up last week and got told they were closed and they weren't planning on changing that for the forseeable future. Staff certainly didn't sound overly protective of them.
Sorry, I mis-remembered:
Quote from: Staff, in response to doc request
The Akai are currently not open for play. We hope to make this change in the sometime future, but there is no timeline as of right now.
Similar situation to the Jaxa Pah then.
I doubt it, as the Jaxa Pah are closed as well.
I bet you'd get a similar response if you asked for docs on them, though, is what I meant.
Seeing as I tried apping lately, they are closed as well, yes.
Christ. Why is city-elf a playable race again?
I'd say something about celves being forty percent of any city's population for the umpteenth time, but even staff seem to be giving up on them by now. Joy.
Slaves are also 40% (or more) of a city state's population and yet they're not playable either ::)
As irony would have it, Allanak's current pc slave population is more or less equal to its pc elf population, so there's that.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 21, 2014, 03:49:56 PM
Christ. Why is city-elf a playable race again?
In my opinion, every single projects on Armageddon should come to an halt NOW and all the energy should be focused on getting a rinthi elf clan re-opened as soon as humanly possible. Staff constantly reminds us that the strength of an elf is in number and their "blood", that's what makes up for the weaknesses of an elf, but if there's no way to codedly play that out and no way for an elf to join a clan, then yes, might as well close them down for play. Fuck Kuraci and fuck the Byn, that's not what I make elves for when I (often drunkenly) create one.
(and please take this with a grain of salt and my usual cynic sense of humor, I know that each staff has different projects and areas of expertise, that's just me overblowing things to state how ridiculous I find the situation that
'rinthi most elves have been clanless for months now :) )
Quote from: Malken on May 21, 2014, 03:04:42 PM
Quote from: Barsook on May 21, 2014, 02:56:09 PM
I figure that they were closed due to not seeing any Akai around IC.
I thought it was the other way around, they closed because nobody wanted to play them. (I don't think I'm wrong in saying that a majority of the playerbase really hates the idea of that clan).
I think it's probably a chicken vs egg argument -- They don't seem to be a popular clan, and when there isn't active leadership to accept what few city elves in Tuluk there are, it becomes a stalemate.
I'd like to note that tribes aren't like GMH's. Your recruitment options are tiny, and the process is stringent. A death in a GMH never disrupts pcbusiness all that much, whereas an elf vanishing affects the clan much more.
Yeah, I totally agree.
It's as you describe for clans like the Akai and Jaxa -- It isn't as simple as replacing someone, if they go missing or happen to disappear. Some of those positions take years to get into. It seems every time an Akai dealer pops up, the clan is active for a minute, and then once that PC disappears or dies, the clan is inert. It would be nice to get more superfluous tribes in game -- Ones that can exist virtually and don't fill some grand niche in the same way the Akai do. Sure, they can sell some goods, but not on the same grand level the Akai do. Sure, they can fill some 'crime syndicate' niche, but not in the same grand way the Akai do. And so on.
Well, yeah, but that'd require staff danctioning at least, and full-on suport at best, while currently support for c-elves is covered by Kurac and the byn alone. And the unclanned staff, I guess.
I dunno, I think it could fall under 'Unclanned' or 'Desert Elves'. The old family/tribes of yore in the Labyrinth were more background/filler than 'Blood Blood Blood, do this Blood, sell this Blood'. If you happened to meet someone who was also a part of your family, woo hoo! But it was often just a cool filler/background, there was a no_save place where you could crash (so you couldn't hoard a bunch of crap), and call it a day.
It relied much more on player ingenuity, rather than coded benefits or history. There were some great Dairiki hedonistic spice heads running around the 'Rinth back in the day, and a few Valuren badasses that come to mind. But it was much simpler, much more vague than it is now. I'm not sure if that was 'better' per se, just different, and i'm nostalgic for it.
Well, yeah, sounds good to me. It's just that with the staffside radio silence on the matter, all we can do is wish.
I think we can discuss the benefits/foreseen negatives with such a system, and also pose what is disliked about the current system, in a civil manner. Likely in a different thread, and at a different time, and with someone who has the wherewithal to write something like that out. I nominate Malken!
That.. Is a good point. We're derailing kinda hard in here.
Yeeeeeeeah, I'd never play an elf unless I was chargen-spawned belonging to a family/tribe. The whole point of an elf is the tribal mindset. Anything less is just being a tall guy with a big neon 'kill me' sign about his neck.
Quote from: Zoan on May 21, 2014, 08:07:40 PM
Yeeeeeeeah, I'd never play an elf unless I was chargen-spawned belonging to a family/tribe.
+1
I think the best think that could happen for city-elf-loving players would be to make it alright to role up a coming-out-of-the-closet elf tribe with the same rules and regulations that come with doing a family role call.
I don't see this happening, though. Over the last few years, it seems more and more as if PCs are being herded into tighter and tighter clan options for the sake of player consolidation, which I was hoping would change with the recent player-base growth. :(
Quote from: Reiloth on May 21, 2014, 07:03:24 PM
I think we can discuss the benefits/foreseen negatives with such a system, and also pose what is disliked about the current system, in a civil manner. Likely in a different thread, and at a different time, and with someone who has the wherewithal to write something like that out. I nominate Malken!
Hey, I'm just your regular 0 pack blue collar fedora Joe who is very passionate about this mud (it comes and it goes but it sticks with me like the herpes I caught in 1997), so I try to pick my battles without sounding like a bummer, dude. I know best and most about Tuluk so that's why I often bitch (and sometime cheer!) about Tuluk-related topics and I know that we very slowly, and hopefully, getting there. At least we can't blame Nyr for not trying new things and changing it up, but yeah, I try not to write big topics like this one on the GDB too often, the "be the change" answer I got in like five minutes after writing this up reminded me that writing stuff up on the GDB is useless at best and rage inducing at worst.
tl;dr.. I refuse this nomination!
Quote from: Malken on May 21, 2014, 10:12:34 PM
At least we can't blame Nyr for not trying new things and changing it up...
You've been on the GDB long enough to know better!
Staff: No new/additional clans/buildings/tribes/quit rooms/sandwiches.
Players: BUT I WANT TO BE ABLE TO CHANGE THINGS!
Staff: We're changing this to try and make things better, some changes were IC, some are OOC.
Players: BUT I LIKED THINGS JUST THE WAY THEY WERE!
You'll never please everyone, but you can always please yourself!
lifehack: To avoid jail time, go somewhere private first.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on May 21, 2014, 10:24:30 PM
Quote from: Malken on May 21, 2014, 10:12:34 PM
At least we can't blame Nyr for not trying new things and changing it up...
You've been on the GDB long enough to know better!
Staff: No new/additional clans/buildings/tribes/quit rooms/sandwiches.
Players: BUT I WANT TO BE ABLE TO CHANGE THINGS!
Staff: We're changing this to try and make things better, some changes were IC, some are OOC.
Players: BUT I LIKED THINGS JUST THE WAY THEY WERE!
You'll never please everyone, but you can always please yourself!
lifehack: To avoid jail time, go somewhere private first.
Er.. we can't blame Nyr for not trying.. That's too many negatives and now I'm confusing myself. At least Nyr is changing things up is what I'm trying to say :-\
The last five additions to the chronology tab on the main page were events in Tuluk wherein the amount of player planning was something approximate to zero. If there's time for that, there's got to be time to write up a few paragraphs about a tribe or two you can jump in at will.
Quote from: Patuk on May 22, 2014, 06:20:05 AM
The last five additions to the chronology tab on the main page were events in Tuluk wherein the amount of player planning was something approximate to zero. If there's time for that, there's got to be time to write up a few paragraphs about a tribe or two you can jump in at will.
Players were involved in all five of those. Including planning, in almost every case.
That's not really important, though. I just felt compelled to respond to a really entitled post that did the exact opposite of whatever you're trying to do. If you want staff to want to help in this, you're shooting yourself in the foot.
Both feet.
Staff will address almost everything that we consider to be an issue. At some point. Eventually. However, there's only so much bandwidth for projects, and tackling city-elves would absolutely be one. This is one of those cases where what staff is doing and actively working on (in general, with a myriad of projects we continually work on) doesn't match up with what you want in this one case (JUST fix this one thing and I'll be happy). It happens. Sorry.
Okay.
Quote from: Patuk on May 21, 2014, 07:01:28 PM
Well, yeah, sounds good to me. It's just that with the staffside radio silence on the matter, all we can do is wish.
We don't often respond to these posts, even if we have plans to make changes. We could have these clans ready to roll out tomorrow and we wouldn't tell you.. until tomorrow.
The fact is that when we make changes, even with the best intentions, they often get derailed. As Nyr said we have limited bandwidth for projects. We usually have several projects on the go at any one time, but we're very much aware of the fact that we've announced things in the past that haven't come to fruition. We do try and learn as we go.
So, as you mentioned, you can keep wishing. You can keep discussing with other players, come up with ideas etc. Staff may read them. Just don't expect us to wade in and make promises.
To address the OP, I want to say we've been watching the shadow artist system closely for PC use, but I have not yet seen a shadow artist actually get targeted in retaliation for them successfully doing a job. For what it's worth, that's after several months of implementation. The only exception was noteworthy enough that the target was on the chronology history madoodle.
Personally I think we should just do away with the forced racism nonsense and let elves be able to join clans.
Dwarves, muls, halfgiants, and gith too while we're at it?
City elves are codely awesome at the things one who reads the docs would expect them to be awesome at. Racism and distrust is the counterweight to that.
Also many elf players LIKE rolelplaying that aspect of being an elf. I absolutely love how elves are written in Arm/Darksun, I've never been able to enjoy playing them myself, save one Jaxa Pah Face I played when the tribe first opened, and I had to store him because of Real Life bitch-slapping me across the face. But, I think the Jaxa Pah and their docs fit the Rinth and quite honestly was a near perfect fit for what the Eastide (and Allanak as a whole) needs in a city-elf tribe. The Hand, however, always rubbed me as forced and slightly off-pitch for the setting as a whole, but I've had the chance to play with some awesome elves out of the clan and greatly appreciate staff for the work they did with it.
Again, I don't play elves, but I love the concept, and I love playing around those well played (I've never seen more than a handful that I thought weren't).
Quote from: Jingo on May 22, 2014, 11:21:30 PM
Personally I think we should just do away with the forced racism nonsense and let elves be able to join clans.
Agreed. I'm fine with racism towards them and utter distrust, but to say that 40% of the cities' population is officially un-hirable no matter what is just wierd. Even black folks were able to find work in places they were not commonly thought to be allowed when they excelled at something.
But ooh well. Until then, city-elves will continue to be rarely encountered in any non-criminal way.
I would love to have elves as represented in the cities as they should be to balance out with humans... it would certainly be an.... interesting experience.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on May 23, 2014, 12:20:15 AM
Dwarves, muls, halfgiants, and gith too while we're at it?
By any metric, racism directed towards elves is much more extreme than any of the other races. If it was held at that level I would be fine. but it isn't. Racism in Zalanthas even goes further than the racial documentation would suggest.
QuoteCity elves are codely awesome at the things one who reads the docs would expect them to be awesome at. Racism and distrust is the counterweight to that.
City elves are not codedly awesome. At best they're above average due to starting stats. But it's not the code I'm even concerned with though. But sure they sure were awesome before the wisdom nerf.
QuoteAlso many elf players LIKE rolelplaying that aspect of being an elf. I absolutely love how elves are written in Arm/Darksun, I've never been able to enjoy playing them myself, save one Jaxa Pah Face I played when the tribe first opened, and I had to store him because of Real Life bitch-slapping me across the face.
I do too but trust me, it gets old fast. You eventually begin to notice that the discrimination takes an ooc tinge as well.
And just because it's a cool narrative concept doesn't mean its good when applied in a game setting. Right now, an elf has zero power base. There is nothing stopping Joe pc from scrub killing an elf when even the Templar can't give a damn. Ideally their power would be derived from the collectivism of elven tribes but staff seem to be having a hard time maintaining them.
Solution? Let them become useful to merchant house clans. When really the only reason they aren't allowed to play in these clans is "durrr racism durrrrr".
Just to chime in on why elves seem to die a lot...
Many just push things too far. If your elf is OPENLY snide, condescending, and rude to the wrong people, you may just become a target. This is especially true if you also tend to flee from consequences. Characters will become increasingly frustrated that they can not strike at you in any other way, and eventually they or their friends will just decide to kill you. No one ICly cares if your elf dies, so it just makes the leap to killing that elf that much faster.
I feel I must reiterate something that I posted in reference to a different issue about longevity. You CAN play your character and NOT be open about how they feel, especially if this is going to lead to your untimely death. Sure, there should be small hints. Hemotes are great for this. I wouldn't hemote doing something that if seen would result in further escalation though. Don't give a covert middle-finger to a Templar, it isn't smart. Elves are smart.
It is NOT OOC for your elf to want to live, though, and if your elf thinks it's fun to piss off powerful people or their allies, he's gonna get dead sooner rather than later. If your elf wants to pull off a con, you better put in the thought as a player. Trying to openly hussle people in a bar isn't exactly a well-thought-out con.
I guess what I'm trying to get at is that elves should probably be subtle, even in Allanak. Because otherwise you're going to get killed. When it's just elves talking, you can spout off about how stupid the round-ears are all you want. Unless you have a gang and a place to hide, doing so publicly is not a good idea. Being proud does not mean you walk up to people willing to kill you and spout off about how you are better. Trying to outwit and make fun of them in public is probably not so smart either. Being embarrassed will push people a lot more than private insults. At that point you've forced their hand. They're going to try to get you back for that. Even if you are codedly powerful, you will find that continuing to flaunt your successes only encourages more people to kill you. You're upsetting the social order at that point, and the elves have to be 'put in their place'.
The final thing is that something should be learned. This isn't just for elves, but for all characters. Did your character receive a severe beating? Instead of laughing it off because there was no coded consequences, perhaps your character should learn from it. Maybe they'll NOT laugh in that aide's face next time. The point is that every time you downplay a consequence short of death, you bring your character's death one step closer. The more you laugh at the beatings and insults, the more likely the next time your character will just be killed. "Who's laughing now?"
If your elf is good at what you do, you might want to brag to elves you trust. Bragging about criminal exploits or how you outwitted someone important in public is probably just going to paint a big target on your back.
As for elves needing a coded clan, I think that's true. I think that my advice still applies. The elves in those clans sometimes became targets because they thought they were above social rules because they had clan backing. Public behavior is public behavior. There are rules. Private behavior is much more fluid and adjusts based on many different factors. I felt like this simple truth was often forgotten, and it resulted in a lot of people gunning for them.
TL;DR
Just read the bold parts.
You know why elves are usually snide, condescending and rude? That's because they usually have a whole bunch of elf buddies watching their backs and hanging out with them, but that's not being represented ICly so the best we can do is play elf-lite and that's just frustrating because you are constantly outnumbered and you need to go to these public places to have some sort of interaction with other players (an elf would probably much rather stick to the rinthi taverns where it would be virtually full of other elves and others, but again, we play a mud to interact with other players) so they constantly put themselves at a disadvantage in the name of interaction. So to survive as an elf, you need to adapt a somewhat non-elf behavior and it's even more visible when you have absolutely no IC clans to join and you're stuck being a lone wolf which is, in my opinion, even worse than rp'ing an elf riding a mount.
Quote from: Malken on May 23, 2014, 02:47:13 AM
You know why elves are usually snide, condescending and rude? That's because they usually have a whole bunch of elf buddies watching their backs and hanging out with them, but that's not being represented ICly so the best we can do is play elf-lite and that's just frustrating because you are constantly outnumbered and you need to go to these public places to have some sort of interaction with other players (an elf would probably much rather stick to the rinthi taverns where it would be virtually full of other elves and others, but again, we play a mud to interact with other players) so they constantly put themselves at a disadvantage in the name of interaction. So to survive as an elf, you need to adapt a somewhat non-elf behavior and it's even more visible when you have absolutely no IC clans to join and you're stuck being a lone wolf which is, in my opinion, even worse than rp'ing an elf riding a mount.
Do you want riots in the streets? Because that's how you get riots in the streets.
I doubt elves would be snide, condescending, and rude even in larger groups. They are still a minority (and the one not in power) in a terribly racist world, and they should act like one. You're just going to have huge fights constantly if you really think that's how elves would act in public. If they did, it would quickly spiral out of control from bar fights to outright warfare in the streets until someone put the other in their place. I disagree that elves SHOULD be snide, condescending, and rude in public even in large groups. Lynch mobs would be right around the corner, followed by war in the streets if the elves were not cowed.
What I'm saying is that I don't think elven pride should be expressed this way, nor does it have to be.
Another thing that could help is localized power. The rinth is a good example of this. The elves have a section where no humans and soldiers go. They are the power there. In a world where 40% of the population is made up of elves, there would probably be sections of the commoner's quarter or warrens where this was also the case. Soldiers might not avoid it completely, but they would certainly be much more cautious.
Power in areas is different from power in general. Elves might be able to say what they want in their neighborhood, but they aren't going to go out to a place where they are outnumbered and start trouble. It's ridiculous. If there's a football (soccer) game on in a bar and both teams are represented in the bar population but one has the clear advantage in numbers, that's not the one you start taunting.
But, you know, that's just my opinion, man.
Quote from: racurtne on May 23, 2014, 02:53:12 AM
Quote from: Malken on May 23, 2014, 02:47:13 AM
You know why elves are usually snide, condescending and rude? That's because they usually have a whole bunch of elf buddies watching their backs and hanging out with them, but that's not being represented ICly so the best we can do is play elf-lite and that's just frustrating because you are constantly outnumbered and you need to go to these public places to have some sort of interaction with other players (an elf would probably much rather stick to the rinthi taverns where it would be virtually full of other elves and others, but again, we play a mud to interact with other players) so they constantly put themselves at a disadvantage in the name of interaction. So to survive as an elf, you need to adapt a somewhat non-elf behavior and it's even more visible when you have absolutely no IC clans to join and you're stuck being a lone wolf which is, in my opinion, even worse than rp'ing an elf riding a mount.
Do you want riots in the streets? Because that's how you get riots in the streets.
I doubt elves would be snide, condescending, and rude even in larger groups. They are still a minority (and the one not in power) in a terribly racist world, and they should act like one. You're just going to have huge fights constantly if you really think that's how elves would act in public. If they did, it would quickly spiral out of control from bar fights to outright warfare in the streets until someone put the other in their place. I disagree that elves SHOULD be snide, condescending, and rude in public even in large groups. Lynch mobs would be right around the corner, followed by war in the streets if the elves were not cowed.
What I'm saying is that I don't think elven pride should be expressed this way, nor does it have to be.
Nah, I mostly meant that elves wouldn't go where they are exposing themselves to a majority of racist murderers and would probably stick to their own gang turfs, but since this is a rp mud, elf pcs must expose themselves to said racism a lot more than they probably would in the reality of the world.
Elven shit-talk means social chaos? I'm going to reject that notion without even addressing it.
Elven shit-talk = immediate dead elf? Elves arn't the ghettoized minority that many players and staff seem to think they are. They do actually have all the same rights as human citizens (that is to say none when the templar comes around). And killing one should earn the ire of said templars for the same reason it would for a human. Regardless of the trash talk involved.
Way to over-simplify what I said and dismiss it. ::)
More discerning people might understand what I'm getting at. Even humans don't shit-talk to each other and expect it to be consequence-free. No one said immediate social chaos or dead elf. I said it would escalate to that point if that was the norm for elven behavior in majority-human areas. It makes no sense for you to walk into a human-dominated area and start pissing them all off unless you have a death wish. It's also dumb to start trouble with noble house employees if you are an independent human.
I thought this was common sense. I bet you played one of these elves who stuck blindly to their pride and got mad when it bit you in the rear for expressing that pride at the wrong time.
If 40% of the bar decides to taunt 60% of the bar, you can bet the 60% will retaliate in the form of a bar-fight at first. Perhaps the ringleaders of the trouble will be earmarked for more severe punishment. This is how a racist society operates. It operates on terrorizing the minorities into their "place". If the 40% continue to behave in this fashion, things will escalate again. If the 40% decide they won't be treated this way and escalate as well, you then have social chaos. Someone has to back down eventually, and I'm going to bet it'll be the 40%. They'll probably start shutting up as the most outspoken begin to be singled out for severe punishment.
Also, ghettoized is different from segregated. Segregation if not institutionalized, most likely happens naturally. I highly suspect neighborhoods would be predominantly of one race. This isn't a ghetto, this is segregation, and is likely done by choice.
This is horribly off-topic...Maybe we should start an elf / elf background thread?
I think it's telling that it's the people not playing elves who are saying thingd are fine as-is.
Quote from: Reiloth on May 23, 2014, 04:11:11 AM
This is horribly off-topic...Maybe we should start an elf / elf background thread?
Or ask the staff do split this one....
For the record, I don't think things are fine as is. If someone is accusing me of saying that, they would be misrepresenting me. I gave some suggestions on how not to be targeted so much as an elf and why I thought behaving in this fashion does NOT fly in the face of present documentation.
I want elves to have tribes too, just don't expect them to be a license to do or say whatever you want without consequences. There are always consequences.
And with that, I'm done! If I get misinterpreted some more, so be it. ;D
Quote from: racurtne on May 23, 2014, 03:04:59 AM
...or warrens where this was also the case.
There's a section of the warrens that's firmly under elven control, if you know how to find it. It's not well fleshed out, but it's there.
Concerning Tuluki elves, I can think of a few ways to counter the lack of open tribes, and still maybe roleplay elven bluster:
1: Get in the levies and suck up to a Faithful Lord. Your tribe is the Sun King tribe, the biggest, baddest tribe in the whole Known.
2: Get a patron. (can elves have patrons? If half-breeds can have patrons, then it would be extremely silly if elves couldn't.)
3: Lie. Is there a merchant house position open to disgusting, filthy fucking breeds, but not elves? Congrats. You have the qualities to pass as a half-elf. Maybe your direct boss knows you're an elf. If the NPC asshat in charge of your boss has anything to say about it, you're a half-elf. It's just that your other half is elf too.
4: Lie. What self-respecting elf would say, "I'm tribeless," to the round-eared rubes? If someone is bashing you near or around the Warrens, point out that you have a thousand cousins lurking nearby. If they're being really assholish about bashing your elveny self, just because your an elf, on or near elven grounds, wish up and try to call in the NPC elf brigade. Probably won't work, but on the other hand, I don't think I've ever seen Tuluki PC overtly heckle an elf just for being an elf (to the point where an NPC elf brigade might take an interest in knocking the round-ear down a peg).
Any case, if you need a safe-ish spot to hide after making rude gestures at a Kadian hunter, make sure you know your way around the Warrens. There's safe-ish spots to be found.
Let's just be real. The reason elves are not played very often isn't because they are not cool. It's because they don't have the options any other race barring muls do. And we play this game to have fun, even when we are dying in this world - playing an elf appears to be, for most people, an exercise in futility, in the cities.
For elves to be 40 percent of a population and not be hired by any round-ear clan but Kurac and the Byn borders on goofy. ICly, no, of course it doesn't ... but OOCly, yes, it does. And we can say, let's make fake tribes. Alright, sure, but that doesn't solve anything besides having a loose background relation to another city elf. It does absolutely nothing for the player's goals to be able to enjoy their elf.
And we could open elven tribes in the city, but we're already trying to consolidate instead of dilute - so while that helps elves, it helps nobody else unless the clan replaces a clan that is currently open, and then is placed to fill the same role or a new role which makes up for the lose of the role the closed clan held in terms of city politics.
I truly think the solution is to allow all GMHs and non-noble clans to hire elves, and to retro-actively adjust the documented attitude towards such a thing. Period. Elves come with disadvantages from the jump due to not riding mounts and being weak, and there are already restrictions for the advancement of non-humans that very few non-humans will ever break.
But if we want to see more elves, and we should, because they are a viable and realistic portion of the cities, then you either change their playing environment, or you close them for play. And I don't want to see elves closed for play. I don't play elves, but I enjoy well-played elves.
Just curious, has anyone tried asking staff to make a family of elves recently?
It seems like the best step toward getting what the group of people in this discussion wants.
I think it could probably do a lot of good in Allanak, at least.
Again, I really don't "feel" elves in Tuluk as being enjoyable to play.
I can't see elves readily "registering" with the Templarate just to be able to provide for their tribe just because lesser races are dumb/slow enough to be so easily taken advantage of, for one. It seems like a very un-elf thing to do for me. Elves, in their minds at least, should be able to function independently of the other races, and even other tribes other than seeing them as marks/victims/tools/whatever.
There was a wisdom nerf for elves? I must have missed that one.
An elven tribe would be great for Shadow artistry in Tuluk.
More city elf tribes in the game, even if very generic with little support would be nice... similar to what's been discussed at length in this thread about city elves (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46421.0.html). Some of these ideas would probably work well in Tuluk too.
QuoteAgain, I really don't "feel" elves in Tuluk as being enjoyable to play.
I actually think Tuluk is a superior environment for elves, precisely because they can be recognized as valuable by the templars for doing elf-like things.
QuoteI can't see elves readily "registering" with the Templarate just to be able to provide for their tribe just because lesser races are dumb/slow enough to be so easily taken advantage of, for one. It seems like a very un-elf thing to do for me. Elves, in their minds at least, should be able to function independently of the other races, and even other tribes other than seeing them as marks/victims/tools/whatever.
There's just never going to be enough players to fill the c-elf roles required to make a functioning c-elf society. There's aberrant times when there are enough c-elves roaming around, but that's the exception, not the rule. You're not going to know (unless you check via OOC means) if eastside of the Rinth is hopping prior to entering and getting stuck as the only PC elf.
What you need is the ability for a solo c-elf or a small cadre of elves to be able to interact with the rest of the player base in a meaningful way, while retaining their elven identity. Meaning: they should not and cannot function independently of the other races. Ideally, it should be possible to play the game as the only c-elf active in a city, just as it's possible to play as the only PC dwarf, PC half-giant, or PC mul.
7DV is right in that it's absurd if merchant houses don't hire c-elves, especially if they're open to hiring half-breeds. Beyond that, Tuluk has the shadow artist system, the levy system, and patronage system -- all ways for the lone c-elf to become involved with the rest of the city's PCs. I think it's a mistake pigeonhole all elves as nasty thieving bastards, or even entirely insular to their own culture. If they were utterly worthless to the workings of the city-states, they would be eradicated or exiled.
In my experience, an elf can do just fine and be extremely fun and compelling to play with the current IC constraints in place.
Just because you can't be in the clan "House Kadius" doesn't mean you can't develop a reputation and contacts therein, and wield more power (albeit an 'amorphous' kind of power) than many PCs in that clan.
In other words, tribeless elves can fill the niche of being useful, no-strings-attached "mercenaries" that people can deny being affiliated with if things go wrong. It's so, so cheesy, but I can see a city elf thinking like "The Plague" in the movie hackers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kSbRJHsPvE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kSbRJHsPvE)
It's not because of "forced racism." It has nothing to do with racism. It has everything to do with the defined traits of elves as they exist in the Armageddon world.
In other words, people don't mistrust elves due to some "perception" of elves being thieves. They don't trust them, because elves ARE thieves. It's not a perception. It's a fact.
Elf/thief + Kadius/valueable stealable shit = really stupid idea.
Half-elves aren't KNOWN to be thieves, as a whole. Elves in Armageddon are known to be thieves. That's why GMHs make exceptions for half-elves. Not because they're better, but because they are less likely to start right out of the gate with their hands in the GMH's pocket/trunk/stables/backpack/footlockers.
The foundation for racism towards elves is based on the fact that elves put their tribe before outsiders whom they view as untrustworthy resources to exploit for the benefit of their tribe (and themselves).
Quote from: Lizzie on May 23, 2014, 02:41:28 PM
Half-elves aren't KNOWN to be thieves, as a whole. Elves in Armageddon are known to be thieves. That's why GMHs make exceptions for half-elves. Not because they're better, but because they are less likely to start right out of the gate with their hands in the GMH's pocket/trunk/stables/backpack/footlockers.
Half-elves aren't a race unto themselves, or really an identifiable group at all. They also represent a very small portion of the population, so I conjecture people wouldn't have enough experience with half-elves to generalize about their behavior the way they can with elves.
I'm not entirely disagreeing, but what you can tell from looking at a half-elf is this: he or she is "half" an elf, and as far as any human knows may have inherited a propensity to steal. Moreover (and worse yet) he or she is an aberration, the result of an unnatural union between species.
Quote from: Lizzie on May 23, 2014, 02:41:28 PM
In other words, people don't mistrust elves due to some "perception" of elves being thieves. They don't trust them, because elves ARE thieves. It's not a perception. It's a fact.
Elf/thief + Kadius/valueable stealable shit = really stupid idea.
Human/commoner + Kadius/valuable stealable shit = really stupid idea
A Kadian shouldn't be hiring a human off the street, giving her free passage into the compound, and then expecting against all hope that commoner wouldn't abscond with everything not nailed down. In fact, I did exactly this. A Kadian hired my scummy, sand-flea infested human 'hunter', and the very next RL day I took off with as much shit as I thought I could get away with (while still respecting that NPC guards were watching) and fucked off to Red Storm. There was so much shit to steal that the dent I made didn't seem to make a difference. The PCs never even bothered to go after me. I informed staff, and the yet, the world turned on without caring.
That doesn't happen every time or uncommonly because the clanned PCs need a certain amount of autonomy to be playable. It makes endless sense to hire an elf: very cheap and plentiful labor, known for having mercantile bents. In fact, a House might negotiate to put an entire small tribe on the payroll. It's just that they would be watched, just as my grubby 'hunter' should have been watched.
If anything, half-elves should be the undesirable ones. They have a worse reputation than elves for being scum, and a highly individualistic bent, and the ability to leave the city-states. And elf is stuck in the city-state, and further, has a tribe that is stuck in the city-state. If the elven hire takes off with a sack of stuff and fucks off to a far corner of the Known, you can punish his family. The half-elf has no family to hold hostage.
I try to vet ALL my employee hopefuls for at least a week, preferably two. Save time, effort, report space, etc.
Talk to them, get to know them, give them tests to pass to prove their worth.
Unless it's sweat-shop labor or meatshield, you shouldn't every just hire anyone off the street.
That.. Is a hilarious example, if only because an elf may not have done so at all. Too easy.
This was probably suggested about three or four times in this thread but dumb down the extent of the big brother system for certain areas?
Like, say that this particular camera whatever or whatever the fuck you use "costs too much and we need to stop powering it with abominable magicks/take it back" or something like that. You still have three whatthefucks left, you just had one or two taken away because it costs too much/the templarate don't care if crime skyrockets. If I sound like I have no idea how it works, I really don't.
I would love to be a nobody who is truly afraid to try to walk to the tavern at night. Which has happened before, but kind of rarely to be honest. Definitely afraid to sit outside somewhere at night, though, and not just from one or two instances.
I don't know this for an absolute fact, but I'm fairly certain it's possible to be a bit of a thug in Tuluk and get away with it.
Going on a murder rampage is going to get you caught, but if you're careful about and when and why you mug an NPC (or even a PC), I'm willing to bet 10 sid that it could be done without the wtfpwn squad descending from heaven to disappear you. If you really want to be smart about, join the levies as an insurance policy. When you are caught, you can plead for mercy more effectively.
For those of you experienced with criminals: easier in Tuluk or easier in Allanak, right now, as of this very moment in time?
Not the legal stuff, either, the stuff that pcs are going to want to catch you for.
I know there's different types of criminals but I'm more interested in pickpockets/thieves/burglars/muggers and one-time killers/serial killers/overly enthusiastic muggers, because those seem able to work the best independently, without needing to embroil themselves with company that can get them killed in a manner not related to them personally committing a crime.
I'm also under the impression that being a criminal is much harder in Luir's and Red Storm. For those in the know, how well do you think this is enforced? Does having to have nosave combat off in Luir's impede violent crime or change it unrealistically? In a way that negatively affects crime maybe?
If you want to play the opposite of what Tuluk's image has been for a long time, now's the time.
Not going to say more about it, but the change, it is being "it".
Re: Luir's and Red Storm
Pretty sure commiting coded crime in these two is a death sentence. I know it was before the crim code was changed so that night/darkness plays a role in the crim-code.
They both have jails but NPC soldiers just cut offenders down if they are caught.
Quote from: long live miley cyrus on May 31, 2014, 01:52:00 PM
For those of you experienced with criminals: easier in Tuluk or easier in Allanak, right now, as of this very moment in time?
I don't think I'm that experienced but playing a criminal has been easier in Allanak. I don't think that is going to change either. At the end of the day allanak has the rinth and even redstorm. I think some people here would beat me up in the street for saying this but yes I feel redstorm is an extention of allanak. It CAN be its own place, with its own plots just like the rinth but both places interact wonderfully with allanak as well.
Just the fact that these places exist means that you as a criminal, mugger, raider, murder or whatever have a place to run away too. More importantly, people are more likely to blame someone from the rinth rather then you or assume that raider is from redstorm. Shit happens in allanak, and no one bats an eye because its expected that shit will happen in and around allanak. I don't know how it is for tuluk right now though. Can you get away with being a bit of a thug in tuluk? Yeah maybe, but you can be a full thug in allanak and get away with that there. Tuluk is a different beast though, it isn't allanak, and I don't think we'll ever see crime being something big there. Some crime being present in tuluk? Dagger stolen off a belt. Yes. Being prevalent and bold? People getting mugged/murdered on the street? No.
Where tuluk excels is its surrounding wilderness and that where the main conflict for tuluk needs to come from, an area where the templars and the solders can't quite fully control. Think of conflicts involving under tuluk, and then there were the red fangs. These are external sources of conflict which do bring the city to life in my opinion. I keep thinking the human and elf tribes need to be brought out of the pah, and forced into the areas surrounding around tuluk. This would force trade and conflict between them, the city and each other. Nothing at the level of violence of what occurred with the red fangs but something more moderate and stable. It would give the surrounding areas a more intelligent source of danger and perhaps give the criminals of tuluk some scapegoats when they attempt something, not to mention give people more competition for the resources there.
In Red Storm, they shouldn't automatically kill you - I'd liek to see you stripped naked when you are released and be forced to start from that fucked up state, instead of your story being ended.
In Luir's, I'd like to see you perma-crimmed in the Outpost and released at the gates with no weapons.
It would be neat nuances to the way that each place handled crime, without ending your story automatically.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 31, 2014, 03:13:34 PM
In Red Storm, they shouldn't automatically kill you - I'd liek to see you stripped naked when you are released and be forced to start from that fucked up state, instead of your story being ended.
In Luir's, I'd like to see you perma-crimmed in the Outpost and released at the gates with no weapons.
It would be neat nuances to the way that each place handled crime, without ending your story automatically.
Storm could just throw you in a pit of sort where you'd have to do menial work to be allowed out. Instead of foraging clay, you'd have to forage for rocks in the pit and when you'd have a certain amount, friend, you'd be allowed out once more.
Mmmmm, where have I stolen that idea from ...
Quote from: Malken on May 31, 2014, 03:26:22 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on May 31, 2014, 03:13:34 PM
In Red Storm, they shouldn't automatically kill you - I'd liek to see you stripped naked when you are released and be forced to start from that fucked up state, instead of your story being ended.
In Luir's, I'd like to see you perma-crimmed in the Outpost and released at the gates with no weapons.
It would be neat nuances to the way that each place handled crime, without ending your story automatically.
Storm could just throw you in a pit of sort where you'd have to do menial work to be allowed out. Instead of foraging clay, you'd have to forage for rocks in the pit and when you'd have a certain amount, friend, you'd be allowed out once more.
Mmmmm, where have I stolen that idea from ...
Set them to work in the windmills...
You haven't ground enough wheat yet, friend.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on May 31, 2014, 03:37:03 PM
Set them to work in the windmills...
You haven't ground enough wheat yet, friend.
(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/3851320/conan-wheel-of-pain-o.gif)
Quote from: FantasyWriter on May 31, 2014, 03:37:03 PM
You haven't ground enough wheat yet, friend.
Rather:
You ain't groun' 'nough flo'r yet, piss-ant.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on May 31, 2014, 03:41:26 PM
Rather:
You ain't groun' 'nough flo'r yet, piss-ant.
Y' a't gr'n' 'nuff fl'r ye', pis'-an'
Quote from: number13 on May 31, 2014, 11:10:45 PM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on May 31, 2014, 03:41:26 PM
Rather:
You ain't groun' 'nough flo'r yet, piss-ant.
Y' a't gr'n' 'nuff fl'r ye', pis'-an'
Red Storm, not the Rinth. ;)
Why should being a thief be easy? You can already open and close things unseen, break into people's apartments and sneak around, nearly invisible.
Also, elves are thieves. It's not even something they can deny, due to the docs. You could remove that, but I think that's the basis for why the humans don't trust them and discriminate against them.
Quote from: Classclown on June 01, 2014, 04:01:52 AM
Why should being a thief be easy? You can already open and close things unseen, break into people's apartments and sneak around, nearly invisible.
Also, elves are thieves. It's not even something they can deny, due to the docs. You could remove that, but I think that's the basis for why the humans don't trust them and discriminate against them.
Some people like playing easy mode, even when they are playing both a race and a skill set which -should- be make play more challenging.
Incoming RL comparison: I want to play that new 1940s Pre-WWII Europe MUD. Hrm, I'll role up a Jewish Conartist in Germany.
Two weeks later: OMG this is hard, no one wants to hire me and no one trusts me, this game is broken!
Focus on ease of OOC anonymity rather than coded ease? I'd love to play a murderer who could get away with it for a while with victims that aren't bottom of the barrel socially, who also had thinks and let a rare person see their face, and could also sit at a bar with soldiers _in the knowledge that they never actually told anybody they killed people._
Can you tell I'm not real familiar with the Big Brother system? I don't know, with that factored in, how well this would work in reality.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on June 01, 2014, 08:19:22 AM
Quote from: Classclown on June 01, 2014, 04:01:52 AM
Why should being a thief be easy? You can already open and close things unseen, break into people's apartments and sneak around, nearly invisible.
Also, elves are thieves. It's not even something they can deny, due to the docs. You could remove that, but I think that's the basis for why the humans don't trust them and discriminate against them.
Some people like playing easy mode, even when they are playing both a race and a skill set which -should- be make play more challenging.
Incoming RL comparison: I want to play that new 1940s Pre-WWII Europe MUD. Hrm, I'll role up a Jewish Conartist in Germany.
Two weeks later: OMG this is hard, no one wants to hire me and no one trusts me, this game is broken!
Wait, is that actually a Mud??
Quote from: Reiloth on June 01, 2014, 01:03:05 PM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on June 01, 2014, 08:19:22 AM
Quote from: Classclown on June 01, 2014, 04:01:52 AM
Why should being a thief be easy? You can already open and close things unseen, break into people's apartments and sneak around, nearly invisible.
Also, elves are thieves. It's not even something they can deny, due to the docs. You could remove that, but I think that's the basis for why the humans don't trust them and discriminate against them.
Some people like playing easy mode, even when they are playing both a race and a skill set which -should- be make play more challenging.
Incoming RL comparison: I want to play that new 1940s Pre-WWII Europe MUD. Hrm, I'll role up a Jewish Conartist in Germany.
Two weeks later: OMG this is hard, no one wants to hire me and no one trusts me, this game is broken!
Wait, is that actually a Mud??
Don't bother. The ghetto is virtual and Jews aren't allowed to have families.
Wait ... I'm in the wrong thread, aren't I?
Just for the record, you can get away with the world's most fucked up shit in your initial background, so long as you aren't openly codedly doing it in character.
Seriously, I've done this from smalltime to "Holy shit, he did what now?" and psychology dictates that soldiers can't be bothered to give a fuck if you're behaving at the moment. They will watch you a good bit though once those thinks get through.
?
Quote from: long live miley cyrus on June 02, 2014, 01:11:52 PM
They will watch you a good bit though once those thinks get through.
Questionable.
I have to explain this?
Let's say in your initial background that you hate tribals and killed a whole tribe of twenty filthy humans with the help of a rogue magicker, who had their own personal vendetta against them. It was just on the border of allanaki lands, and both of you totally got away with it, then you and the gicker split ways never to see each other again. It is easily your fondest non-loved-one memory and you'd totally kill tribals again if given the opportunity. End initial background.
Enter game. You end up beginning to think about that particular event occasionally after about three or four RL days of play, thinking about random details occasionally. Maybe you make a friend and way them about it. People have started watching me for things like this. Not seriously, but they may keep tabs on you, making it more difficult to actually pull anything off later within the realm of the actual code Also its a little hard to ignore when you hardly know anyone, you codedly spill it somehow, and three people way you when the only two people who can remember your name are standing in the room.
If this isn't typical, then my bad. I tend to do something apart from "mundane currently upstanding human citizen" when I make these, which may have something to do with it.
Backgrounds do not transfer to what happens in-game, unless like, you do a special app. Totally irrelevant.
(I'm going "damn!" in the background, here.)
Quote from: MeTekillot on June 03, 2014, 02:27:14 PM
unless like, you do a special app.
Things make a little more sense now.
If we could change the way, well I don't know about the Legion but I know the Arm of the Dragon, the unit which pcs are entered into, is touted as the finest or one of the finest in the militia. If we could change that--- give the pc soldiers some room to be inattentive, lazy, a blabbermouth, a smuggler, an assistant to crime, and as long as they're not outright trading spice in the Gaj and talking about it openly, depending on how bad it is, they should be able to keep their jobs. I would think the soldiers of the city would have the freedom to be almost as corrupt as the criminals, if not potentially more so. Because--- I'm a three-year private in the Arm, citizen, and speaking of what you saw tonight constitutes a fee, for the city's expenses.
As of right now, can non-legal criminals and soldiers work together without being rooted out almost immediately and strung up? I'm not talking about diplomatic pacts with the Guild, I mean small-timers without protection who get lucky and find the right soldier to work with.
Quote from: long live miley cyrus on June 03, 2014, 02:40:43 PM
(I'm going "damn!" in the background, here.)
Quote from: MeTekillot on June 03, 2014, 02:27:14 PM
unless like, you do a special app.
Things make a little more sense now.
If we could change the way, well I don't know about the Legion but I know the Arm of the Dragon, the unit which pcs are entered into, is touted as the finest or one of the finest in the militia. If we could change that--- give the pc soldiers some room to be inattentive, lazy, a blabbermouth, a smuggler, an assistant to crime, and as long as they're not outright trading spice in the Gaj and talking about it openly, depending on how bad it is, they should be able to keep their jobs. I would think the soldiers of the city would have the freedom to be almost as corrupt as the criminals, if not potentially more so. Because--- I'm a three-year private in the Arm, citizen, and speaking of what you saw tonight constitutes a fee, for the city's expenses.
As of right now, can non-legal criminals and soldiers work together without being rooted out almost immediately and strung up? I'm not talking about diplomatic pacts with the Guild, I mean small-timers without protection who get lucky and find the right soldier to work with.
I'm pretty sure it can be like this now. You'd just need some PCs with an interest to play this way. I've certainly seen it in the past. There's no structural impediments to it in Allanak.
As an important point of notice though; Recruits in any organization can't get away with playing this way very easily. You have to wait until you're trusted before you start abusing that trust.
Quote from: MeTekillot on June 03, 2014, 02:27:14 PM
Backgrounds do not transfer to what happens in-game, unless like, you do a special app. Totally irrelevant.
Utter bullshit. What the hell are you talking about? I certainly hope you don't treat your background as totally irrelevant.
Quote from: long live miley cyrus on June 03, 2014, 02:40:43 PM
(I'm going "damn!" in the background, here.)
Quote from: MeTekillot on June 03, 2014, 02:27:14 PM
unless like, you do a special app.
Things make a little more sense now.
If we could change the way, well I don't know about the Legion but I know the Arm of the Dragon, the unit which pcs are entered into, is touted as the finest or one of the finest in the militia. If we could change that--- give the pc soldiers some room to be inattentive, lazy, a blabbermouth, a smuggler, an assistant to crime, and as long as they're not outright trading spice in the Gaj and talking about it openly, depending on how bad it is, they should be able to keep their jobs. I would think the soldiers of the city would have the freedom to be almost as corrupt as the criminals, if not potentially more so. Because--- I'm a three-year private in the Arm, citizen, and speaking of what you saw tonight constitutes a fee, for the city's expenses.
As of right now, can non-legal criminals and soldiers work together without being rooted out almost immediately and strung up? I'm not talking about diplomatic pacts with the Guild, I mean small-timers without protection who get lucky and find the right soldier to work with.
There plenty of room for lazy and uninitiated soldiers, I've seen them played, I've had my leaders have to deal with their shit. Yes, non-legal criminals and soldiers can and often in fact DO work together, if there's a benefit for that soldier in doing so. Problem is there usually isn't that benifit. There's usually much more benefit in being known as the guy who has catches criminals. After all that is your job description.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 03, 2014, 03:24:14 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on June 03, 2014, 02:27:14 PM
Backgrounds do not transfer to what happens in-game, unless like, you do a special app. Totally irrelevant.
Utter bullshit. What the hell are you talking about? I certainly hope you don't treat your background as totally irrelevant.
The issue at hand is, presumably, that the background
is quite irrelevant except when it comes to defining personality and motives and such. It has no impact on such things as wealth, belongings, social status or skills - everybody starts out as a pauper with almost nothing to their name, unless they are playing a sponsored role (in which case they play an unskilled pauper with social status) or special app it (in which case they can get a mostly unskilled pauper). My first few days of playing any character are generally spent avoiding other PCs and getting them to a point where I want them to be where money and basic skills are concerned. If I don't, then there can be a strong dissonance between my character's background and actual status in-game.
I'm not understanding any distinction made here. How is a background that's backed up by staff through a special app any less valid than a background backed up by staff through a normal application?
IF your background deals with you slaughtering virtual tribes then yeah, expect anything related to that background to be virtual. IF, however, you have it in your background that the militia is chasing you down for those murders, then you can simply send an e-mail to the militia-staff and they'll make it a reality in game.
I think the point Delusion is making that is that whether your background is that of a seasoned merc or a kid who just bought a sword, you're going to have the same skills and funds starting out (i.e. none). Background as no effect on code. It can have an effect on personality, disposition, reputation etc.
Isn't that a given?
I don't understand my own thread anymore.
Give soldiers moar money.
Move the jail closer to the criminals. This will help!
Quote from: Lizzie on June 04, 2014, 12:26:37 PM
Move the jail closer to the criminals. This will help!
Quote from: long live miley cyrus on June 04, 2014, 11:46:43 AM
Give soldiers moar money.
Then they won't have as many reasons to play corrupt lawmen. :(