This isn't a coded discussion because we know the code exsists, its just been removed. Instead I want to ask this question: if the staff made -all- cloaks hide mdescs when the hood was raised, would it benefit the overall game? I'm not saying anything is bad now, just curious if something like this would further improve things.
Raidings, muggings, and good old fashion murders are risky businesses, mostly because without careful planning all it takes is for the other person to fuck you over is:
1.look person
2.see mdesc
3.flee
4.???
5.profit
Right now when you first meet a person or someone is doing an interview, many times they will be asked to lower their hoods, and often times people will lower their hoods automatically. Its common, I don't think anything will change in that regard. Anyone sitting in a corner with their hood up will naturally be regarded with suspision, again nothing changes from that perspective. On the other hand, I think people will be more inclined to attempt more risky activities like muggings, raiding and assassination. It would mean that friendly guy willing to buy you a drink, and hear your troubles might be the same mean bastard who raided you last week. As more people attempt nefarious deeds, the demand for protection, militia soldiers, proper training and just good old fashion investigating would increase as well.
I don't think anyone minds things going bad and dying, but when it just takes look cloak, flee to fuck the character you might have put alot of effort into training and rping then its not worth trying. Especially when you know it could mean the entire city, and several bored oganizations coming after you for trying to force one of their newbies to try to give you their boots. Before anyone mentions it, going to another city state to commit stuff hasn't been very practical in a long time. The risk vs. reward just isn't there anymore with the currently situation.
I know this has come up before in particular with mdesc hiding masks but its been a while.
You're about to get a bunch of old veteran players telling you that it's super easy to mug and steal just as long as you know how.
I'm all for this idea.
Quote from: HavokBlue on May 15, 2014, 03:35:39 AM
You're about to get a bunch of old veteran players telling you that it's super easy to mug and steal just as long as you know how.
Yeah i know, i'm wondering who thats going to be though. :D
In all the years I've been playing its only happened to me twice three times. Always as a fresh newbie out of the tavern, twice by whirans, and once by a d-elf who didn't care if I looked at him or not (that was years and years ago back before d-elves more or less got restricted to pah and many years before the red fang events).
You really have to stretch your imagination for the rewards to be worth the risk and isolation that comes from making a living forcing people to give you things through aggressive interaction and threats.
"Yes Lady Templar he had a scar on his left buttcheek and his nose was kalan coloured then I ran away and contacted you."
contact scar.buttcheek.kalan.nose
Yes, absolutely.
Add a condition to hooded items, with the commands "open/close hood" to toggle showing mdesc or not. PCs would have to rely on size category, assess and verbose, and equipment. If you wanna be really fancy, make hide skill increase the effect of the illusion, and scan skill counteract the effect of hide. Unskilled checks of both being fairly sucky.
Any implementation would be cool, though.
Wat
Not from this old vet player. i am all for the idea...always have been. one caveat. to add to the open/close suggestion...contact should continue to work as it does now. nothing should be fullproof...you have novice barrier or did not put it up and your target got your sdesc that way...that is on you.
Agree with X-D on this one.
Quote from: X-D on May 15, 2014, 06:33:44 AM
to add to the open/close suggestion...contact should continue to work as it does now. nothing should be fullproof...you have novice barrier or did not put it up and your target got your sdesc that way...that is on you.
Oh yeah, for sure.
Quote from: Reiloth on May 15, 2014, 06:31:15 AM
Wat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPa5oVG-nII
Outlaws should be outlaws, not sipping tea five minutes after ganking salt grebbers.
The real problem is that outlaws can have their days ruined too easy by spooky actions from a distance, once their sdesc is known. These effects are toxic to gameplay in general, ought to be heavily reworked.
If Disguise is a skill, I'd be fine with it. The game gives your character permission to perform certain actions, via the skill list. Only a burglar has the narrative authority to pop a lock, even though, reasonably, just about anyone should be able to open a primitive lock if they have enough time on their hands. So only X classes should have the narrative authority to disguise their sdesc.
Perhaps Bandit could be an extended subguild that comes with a new disguise skill?
I like this idea and I would love to see it in game, but I'm wary of it too. You just know it's going to be abused.
If there was a way to forcefully reveal someone who was under your control (ie subdued), that would be so nice. Of course, it would be nice if you could forcefully remove clothing items from people as well when they were subdued, etc etc.
If there wasn't such a thing, I think law enforcement would be much more inclined to kill on sight. Why? Because if said criminal just decides to struggle and break free without saying a word, you've got next to nothing to go off of, especially if they're smart and change their clothes. (A surprising number of them don't.) The contact thing would go a long way to providing what I'm asking for, but it still FEELS wrong to me. Since the crim-code is how it is, law enforcement generally won't (and shouldn't) kill on sight without a specific Templar order, because killing all the criminals who RP well makes the world pretty boring for the law-enforcement people anyway.
That being said, I know how hard it is to be a long-lived criminal. Those who pull it off deserve some respect. Those who allow them a little leeway deserve respect too. Giving the criminals a chance to survive longer would provide a lot of interesting things for other PCs to do.
Once you get burned a couple of times for being considerate in your RP, it tends to make you resort to code a lot faster the next time. Some people are bound to take this to the limits of believability and realism. I think if contact were the only solution, you would see less RP because people would resort to code so that their sdesc remains hidden. This means they either flee at the first sign of trouble or attack immediately in order to stop the party from contacting them.
Is there another solution aside from contact?
It would be nicer than hell for someone who plays like I do to have some more anonymity, but I'm guessing that unless some other things were changed along with this, all the get-every-criminal-at-chargen pcs and half of the normal ones are just going to contact you in that room to get your face anyway, more so if you actually did something serious. Resulting in most criminals and criminals to be to get forgettable sdescs, which then begin receiving their own paranoid surveillance.
Does anyone remember why mdesc hiding masks were banned?
Quote from: number13 on May 15, 2014, 06:53:55 AM
Disguise is a skill
I love this. These words are music to me. Would also be a great way to further distinguish between folks like thieves/burglars and shadow artists/raiders, too. Give them something coded to make their brand of criminality stand out more.
Quote from: long live miley cyrus on May 15, 2014, 08:56:57 AM
Does anyone remember why mdesc hiding masks were banned?
If I remember correctly, it was because these items were sought after over-much. They sold for ridiculous OOC prices and people sought them out with such fervor that it defied all IC explanation. I can't remember if that was the only reason, but it was definitely one of them.
You can already pull the clothes off of people if they're unconscious. For law enforcement purposes and the alike, I think that should do fine.
Quote from: Patuk on May 15, 2014, 09:04:01 AM
You can already pull the clothes off of people if they're unconscious. For law enforcement purposes and the alike, I think that should do fine.
As long as you can get them somewhere where there isn't crimcode before they spam flee.
Seeing as soldiers are immune to the crimcode, I really think they'll manage.
Anonymity would be awesome. It sucks having to rely on victim's goodwill not to notice the scar on your lips even though you're wearing a facewrap or a mask.
Quote from: Patuk on May 15, 2014, 09:09:03 AM
Seeing as soldiers are immune to the crimcode, I really think they'll manage.
I mean for the criminal's sake....
Did you completely misunderstand me or are you just wanting to be catty? :-* Because the only question I asked anyhow was if there would be an alternative to contact because I don't like using contact. I think it will hurt this, if it is implemented.
I.. Am not even sure what you're trying to tell me anymore.
I'd rather see masks come back tbh.
While I don't think the idea is without merit anyone can get a cloak which means any ole schmuck would now be able to hide his mdesc. Cloaks are necessities on Zalanthas.
I've said this for years. Make the mask exorbitantly expensive and even harder to find and purchase.
Quote from: Patuk on May 15, 2014, 09:21:22 AM
I.. Am not even sure what you're trying to tell me anymore.
Ah, yes, you are confused. Looking back I realized I didn't really provide a good example of what I was talking about. I wasn't very clear, and it's only something you'd think about if you played law enforcement roles a lot. One has to be really responsible with the crimcode without also being entirely ineffective. It's a balancing act and changes here could change how people react on both sides.
What I mean is this...
Criminal PC has his hood up and closed so his mdesc is invisible. He gets subdued by a soldier. If soldier could somehow reveal him then, and the criminal PC decides to flee, it's unlikely he or the Templar he's rolling with will immediately resort to killing the criminal PC before the PC is even brought to jail (or some other location he can be safely beaten into unconsciousness so that you can force that reveal by taking his clothing), because at least they know who it is then. He/she can be hunted down later or chased.
On the other hand, if there is no method other than knocking the PC out, they may just kill him after he tries and fails to flee once because otherwise they will be completely without leads. All said criminal PC would have to do is successfully flee and change clothes.
I'm just trying to avoid situations like the above -without- using contact as a way around it. I think that having contact to reveal sdescs would resort in lost opportunities for RP from people like raiders, who would know that they'll be just fine as long as they type kill before their target can type contact and flee. This situation already exists to some degree, but I think it could be improved.
Even if it wasn't just any old cloak that could hide your mdesc, but rather a disguise skill, I still fear that it would bring more people to jump to code with increased frequency. Unnecessary PC deaths are bad.
Quote from: racurtne on May 15, 2014, 09:35:43 AM
Unnecessary PC deaths are bad.
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/aa/aae2c5f462de77979a9f6cbc97ed99860d5e3c1b703041122f5538d237a3754f.jpg)
I've always thought how silly it is that someone wearing a hood, a facewrap/mask, gloves, completely every inch of them covered could be crim flagged and then take everything off, change and still have the crim flag, because whoever it is knew exactly who that person was. Frankly its kankshit that this would happen. If I see someone all covered up I RP like I don't know who that person is and anyone doing any differently should get player complaints.
As far as the actual code to fix the mdesc I'm sure that would require a complete code rewrite, which is in no way an easy thing to do.
As to masks, part of why they were removed has already been mentioned, the other reason is because many masks did not only hide the mdesc, but changed it. Staff did not like that a half-giant could have the desc of a gimpka...and that I agree with. Also, the ones that just removed the mdesc, Well, how exactly does a mask hide scars on you hands for instance? But I think that is covered with the proper outerwear.
Quote from: X-D on May 15, 2014, 09:52:43 AM
As to masks, part of why they were removed has already been mentioned, the other reason is because many masks did not only hide the mdesc, but changed it. Staff did not like that a half-giant could have the desc of a gimpka...and that I agree with. Also, the ones that just removed the mdesc, Well, how exactly does a mask hide scars on you hands for instance? But I think that is covered with the proper outerwear.
Honestly X-D, I only saw someone masked twice IG before they took it away. Both people were covered from head to toe.
I don't like it because people will constantly fucking harass me to lower my hood if this went into place and that is not cool. nigga wants his hood up, are you really going to press the issue? sheeit.
Yes, increased anonymity would greatly, greatly improve multiple things.
Obviously, there are always issues with cloaks/masks - "why does a mask keep me from realizing that he's the size of a half giant or covered in tentacles, etc., etc." But either option will have some downsides and require some suspension of disbelief. I think the upsides to increased anonymity far outweigh the upsides to zero anonymity. To me, the choice is, do you want more plots and intrigue or less? MOAR PLEASE.
As for the whole mask thing, you may want to implement so that it's only the full-body cloaks and such that cover your mdesc.
Something that hides the mdesc could improve the game depending on the method of implementation. Short of changing how descriptions are created (adding sub descriptors for different body parts hands/arms/legs/face/head/etc that different clothing could hide), a combination of any large cloak and facewrap or mask should be enough.
Up anonymity, de-crim flag subduals. So that when some anonymous j-off tries to take something in front of the entire Gaj, they get grabbed by their neckery-neck and shaken until the anonymity is removed. :sagenod: Up the criminals, up the ability of the rest of the world to do something about 'em.
It's not just if they have tentacles or are as big as a hg. It doesn't have to be so dramatic/extreme.
The skinny person with the huge tits - won't look any less skinny, and her tits won't be any smaller, just because she has her hood up. She won't be any shorter/taller (which assess can determine anyway), her shoulders won't be any more or less broad, her legs won't be any longer or shorter. Her body type and build, will all be exactly the same whether she has her hood up or down. The Mdesc is the place for putting all this information. Clothing shouldn't be obscuring it.
In broad daylight, at close range, hoods don't cover faces. Hoods don't obscure eyes. They shadow them, but these aren't wraiths in LoTR where all you get to see are black holes surrounded by whirling dark shadows.
Your cloak and your face covering shouldn't be obscuring your shoes/boots or hands, either.
I remember a day in the Gaj, before masks were removed, when this one elf using hide kept trying to rob people, and failing. For like 15 minutes. It was ridiculous. Every single person in the room saw him, but couldn't do anything about it, because they couldn't see him. So he just kept trying and getting seen, then hiding and trying again.
It was probably one of my single most frustratingly unreal Armageddon experiences.
To my mind, what you need to make masks work (I think hoods already do what they should) is an "accuse" command. Basically, any citizen could accuse anyone in a city at any time. You would have to be a citizen, though, and if you do it, it's effectively like pointing at someone and yelling for the guards. The guards come (but maybe not running), and if they see the person in question, and that person did commit a crime, they arrest them. If they don't see the person or there was no crime, they fine the "accuse"r 50 'sid (so you would have to have money in your inv, like at the gates or a shop. If you don't have it out by the time they get there, or flee the scene after accusing, they arrest YOU).
This would allow for more crime, but also force criminals to play realistically.
As much as I would like this idea, I sadly see it getting used a lot like hide, which really irks the shit out of me.
Quote from: Lizzie on May 15, 2014, 11:50:01 AM
It's not just if they have tentacles or are as big as a hg. It doesn't have to be so dramatic/extreme.
The skinny person with the huge tits - won't look any less skinny, and her tits won't be any smaller, just because she has her hood up. She won't be any shorter/taller (which assess can determine anyway), her shoulders won't be any more or less broad, her legs won't be any longer or shorter. Her body type and build, will all be exactly the same whether she has her hood up or down. The Mdesc is the place for putting all this information. Clothing shouldn't be obscuring it.
In broad daylight, at close range, hoods don't cover faces. Hoods don't obscure eyes. They shadow them, but these aren't wraiths in LoTR where all you get to see are black holes surrounded by whirling dark shadows.
Your cloak and your face covering shouldn't be obscuring your shoes/boots or hands, either.
a lot of this could be done with emotes to reveal her skinny arms, and mammoth ginkas, or the scars on her hands, etc... but like I said earlier I don't see it happening.
Hoods, no.
Masks, maybe.
Quote from: Bogre on May 15, 2014, 01:24:44 PM
Hoods, no.
Masks, maybe.
Masks hide ONLY faces. They don't hide necks, shoulders, clothing, armor, bodies, legs, feet, arms, or hands. Unless your mdesc consists exlusively of your character's head, a mask should not hide your entire mdesc. And if your mdesc only includes your character's head and nothing else, I'm hoping the staff will reject it. If they don't, I'll be typoing/ideaing it if I ever see your character in-game.
Going on the idea of a disguise skill - because I love the idea of people being able to hide themselves for certain tasks. There's just too much hope now that someone won't use the information of a look against you, even if covered head to toe and emoting very outwardly that you are covered up.
Perhaps the skill would work something along the lines of requiring a hooded item (and perhaps a mask of some kind) as tools for the skill. Depending on your skill, you could be completely undisguised, wholly without any mdesc, or somewhere in-between, which would show only small parts of your mdesc and any coded scars/tattoos that aren't covered by gear?
"I wasn't able to see much, Sergeant, but I did catch a bit of red hair sticking out of their hood, and a nasty scar on the back of the right hand."
I'm not too sure how possible it is to do such a thing code-wise though, so it might be wishful thinking. =P
Total anonymity with one piece of equipment is... not bad, but "simple". Just like the way the code currently works is simple.
If we want to improve the experience provided by playing, then we can say that the goal of the game is to immerse the players, and in that case the code of the game should generally move to things being less binary to something that is more of a gradient. That goes for a lot of things besides this particular anonymity idea but that's beyond the scope of this thread, I think.
So long as we are still allowed to use "contact figure" to find out what someone looks like and then use that information to roleplay knowing what they look like...a lot of this doesn't matter.
It all seems to boil down to us as the players, to use sense, and to actually look at what someone is wearing, instead of scanning bits and pieces of mdesc, and clothing.
wearing mask, helmet but have long hair can prolly see it, gloves hands are hidden, facewrap face is hidden. can't see their torso armor prolly has their cloak closed, so distorting what we do see, etc, etc....
I think that it would be great to be able to hide the mdesc. I would also like if it masked the sdesc as well, if the mdesc was hidden. I've had people 'contact thick figure' for what seemed to be just for getting the sdesc. Raised hood, closed cloak...good enough for me.
Garbs like this would be common in zalanthas, often not so much to hide your features or religious reasons but because the sandstorms will rip your skin off.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/01/30/article-2093749-0DFFED2A00000578-463_625x428.jpg)
These are clothing people actually wear in the desert, face wraps are common too for men:
(http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/furious-arab-man-covered-face-protesting-18546840.jpg)
(http://jessegoldblatt.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/masked-man.jpg)
A little modern but tell these guys apart:
(http://www.eyeconspiracy.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/ski-mask-society.jpg)
You are not even going to get five line mdesc from the people above, and no where near the amount of information in most of our mdescs. At most you might get their eye color. However, lets say tomorrow staff implemented an option in character generation where everyone inputted eye colour so that when you look at someone with mdesc hidden you still get to see that they have blue eyes, cat-like yellow eyes or something else. I bet you that suddenly most character's eyes will sudden become very normal and generic. That said you really can't identify someone by their eyes alone so really its moot if you ask me, but maybe players still can add small additions to their hidden mdesc much like tdesc to add such things if they deem them necessary. Tdesc option itself was considered by many to be too prone to abuse and yet its become a great RP tool these days.
Disguise skill to be would be a skill that allows me to look like someone else, perhaps in order to frame them. That does indeed take skill and cunning to pull off, where as hiding your identify should be as simple as putting on clothing.
Still maybe instead of just all cloaks, special heavy cloaks where raising the hood is more like raising a face wrap or face mask, if only to quel realism arguments. Their mdesc unlike the masks of old with unique mdesc would be generated just like sdesc is when you raise your hood. Any information from assess -v would be added as well. I do like the idea of still being able to contact figure. :)
The main question still stands, would anonymous people with a greater ability to commit crimes and escape with their identities hidden be good for the game? Would people running around being able to rob and kill each other half the time without risk to getting caught make the streets at night into a warzone, potentially full of griefers after your boots? Again since in terms of code and even just realism I think its very possible to be almost completely anonymous then we can currently be in game.
I keep saying it: just because you CAN do it, doesn't mean you should.
If you realistically think your PC didn't catch much of a person's image, well, don't copy-paste their mdesc into a notepad for perusal and retention.
Quote from: Zoan on May 15, 2014, 03:36:30 PM
I keep saying it: just because you CAN do it, doesn't mean you should.
If you realistically think your PC didn't catch much of a person's image, well, don't copy-paste their mdesc into a notepad for perusal and retention.
That's fine, but it puts the whole onus on the person witnessing. If you're someone else hearing it later, you have no idea what could or could not have been realistically seen.
I'm happy with a mask, bandana, drawn hood (as opposed to raise hood, so you raise it like now, then draw it to conceal face, with appropriate cloaks) all concealing your desc, as long as...
you are considered crim flagged if your features are obscured in that way, automattically.
Quote from: Twilight on May 15, 2014, 05:38:28 PM
you are considered crim flagged if your features are obscured in that way, automattically.
this man is wearing skin-covering clothing in a world where the sand, wind, and sun can actually kill you if you don't protect yourself properly.
obvs criminal, stop in name of hilurd, wish jail close criminals
You can't just hide the mdesc in one fell swoop with one piece of equipment. you have to be COMPLETELY covered to do that... And even then as Lizzie points out you would still be able to determine the height, weight, and general shape of that completely covered individual. I cloak to the best of my knowledge isn't going to hide big boobs if your skinny, etc.
I dislike any single item hiding a full mdesc.
I like the way Haven RPG handled this by having features that showed up no matter what and features for each wearlocation that would be revealed when not covered. I also like that you could forgo that aspect of chargen and just write a normal mdesc.
I would prefer either wear-location-based mdesc hiders or a disguise skill.
Disguise as a skill would please my pants off. That's only a slight exaggeration.
yep. skill. we aren't even mentioning body language yet, or if they speak, then you'd recognize their voice, or their smell, because we all know a rinthi smells differently from a fine bred templar's assassin, right?
I am down with skill.
(http://www.eyeconspiracy.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/ski-mask-society.jpg)
this image proves a point, but there are some important things to note here. One, this isn't modern society, so all those identically crafted masks and hats and clothes would be the equivalent of a mastercraft to get it the same every time. Two, in this dark fantasy world, there is much more variability in body shape and makeup, in addition to different races and mutations. Allanak is heterogeneous, Tuluk is heterogeneous.. people are more unique. The population of these cities is also less, and so there are simply less faces to see when the biggest city can't beat a milli and there's less than 5 million people (of varying races) total on the whole known planet.
Finally, in the modern world (and even pre-modern thanks to good agriculture), whole populations of people have similar nourishment. In Zalanthas, where scavenging, foraging, horticulture, and herding and hunting are your main means of feeding, people will get various amounts of malnourishment and therefore show even more variability in form and shape due to different degrees of stunting at different points in life.
I don't think it makes sense for people to be that able to blend in that anyone can do it. It doesn't fit the setting to me, which is already off-normal thanks to psionics and other tricks that people will use in this world to know each other.
just my two cents. A new skill is always a plus though! And hell, BARDS should get it! FUCK YEAH
Currently, a hood being up already disguises race, though it's pretty easy to figure out based on heights and weights.
To make it simple, simply have the code check for the following things:
- closed cloak with hood up
- armwear
- gloves
- legwear
- face-wrap or mask(not sunslits or rings in your nose or translucent veils)
- boots
If you are wearing those four things, you mdesc is automatically hidden. It doesn't matter if you have big feet and spikes for fingers. Your mdesc is hidden.
I think having change of clothes and/or different types of gear for different situations may become more important as people being trying to identify others by what they are wearing. It would be a realistic tactic, especially in zalanthas where not everyone can afford different sets of clothing after all. Again investigation might become more important:
You are a militia soldier. You are looking for a very short but thick human who has been attacking people on the street for weeks now. Thanks to high watch skill on some of the victims, they were able to tell you he wasroughly X tall, and about Y heavy when they assess -v <mean motherfucker hurting me>. He was wearing a thick red desert cloak, expensive sallarri black scale mail gear. More importantly he was using a custom pair of maces. You talk to salarr about the maces, they say they indeed made them but they were for one of their own, a larger burly man who disappeared in the desert one day. You spread the word and one of your contacts approaches you. They are a burgalar and they have some information for you. They recently robbed the home of a short, thick man. At first the burgalar just thought they were a merchant, always walking around well dressed in linen clothing, but when they opened a chest up, they found maces and armour that match your description. The suspects name is Amos.
You met Amos a few times in the tavern, quiet guy but the bastard has never offered to buy you a drink. Worse of all he has never offered you a bribe like some of the other merchants do. Clearly he is guilty, time to bring him in and righteously torture a confession out of him.
Realism has nothing to do with anything. The game isn't realistic. It barely tries to be realistic.
Based on a character's class+time played (and, in the murky past, how much of a pet you were to certain immortals), your character has certain narrative abilities. I can pop a lock. I can hide under a bed. I can write some words in a book. I can quit out in a wilderness room, ride a kank with weapons in both hands, and slather poison on a knife. When you get down to it, with enough dedication, anyone should be able to do any of the above. But the game "balance", such as it is, is based on narrative permissions, which are mostly assigned at character creation.
The problem with mdesc hiding gear is it subverts this scheme in favor of granting a super power to anyone with the right contacts/enough coins, and it turns the acquisition of the super power into a bidding war that sets a price based on the the potency of the ability rather than whether or not the item would be 'realistically' available. Anyone with a potato sack should be be able to cover their face, really, just like anyone with the desperate need should be able to quickly find a place to hide themselves. Or climb a tree. Or rub some rat poison on a knife without accidentally slicing their own finger off.
Which is why, if disguise exists at all, it should be a skill. A skill that, at Advanced levels, hides your psionic sdec as well as your physical mdesc. The only qualification is that should have a hood or something else that covers your sdesc before using the skill. Once that sdesc hiding item is removed, your mdesc is revealed.
The mdesc could change into something based on your assess -v stats and race:
"This is a short, fat dwarf -- disguised by a featureless obsidian mask."
See, I think that if you make the art of masking yourself a simple process of covering up set areas of the body with items that we all use everyday, and that someone of any class can do it, it makes it not a super power, but a simple reality of the world. It's just like being the hooded figure - everybody can do it. Cloaks don't command great prices because of being able to hood you, they do so because they have neat descriptions or cool materials etc. If someone walks into a tavern, masked, sits at the bar, and has a drink, and it happens all of the time, it becomes normal. And there's no issue with it being normal.
How do you keep everyone from being masked all of the time without criminalizing it? Make it impossible to drink or eat with a mask or facewrap on. Make it socially unacceptable in a civilized place, like walking around with a weapon out.
Don't make it a skill, make it a feature. Suddenly, it's nothing magickal or unusual. It just is life. It's just hoods, on cloaks.
Exactly.
Ayup. I had to laugh at the suggestions of making them rare and costly, as the old masks and wrist razors were. It quickly becomes a theater of the absurd. Make any piece of equipment that conceals your sdesc also conceal your mdesc, and keep tdesc to give necessary details.
Unfortunately, without some kind of check and balance, I think reinstating masks doesn't represent a fix. It just represents pendulum swing away from the utter lack of anonymity, to utterly impenetrable anonymity. (Yes, you could use contact, but that's twinky nonsense.)
There needs to be some way to counter the inevitable jackassery, like an "accuse" command, or flag-free attack/subdue on people who just committed a crime, whether or not they got flagged for it.
So add functionality to the look command for a concealed figure, with contested skill checks from hide and scan. That way, people who are skilled and capable at being hidden, anonymous types are prone to do just that, whereas Amos P. Warrior doesn't stand a chance without help from a subguild.
I still think that identifying someone is more than just how they look and what they wear. Surely, even in nations where burkas are commonplace, people will still be able to identify each other in the street. After all, if everybody is wearing burkas, people are still able to tell apart their family.
The difference is as soon as someone in a burka wants to hide or sneak away from you, then yeah, their burka really helps. That's why we have the HIDE and SNEAK skills.
But, what you don't see is a constant confusion of being totally codedly unable to tell apart everyone around you wearing burkas.
This is a MUD, with enough limitations in our ability to sense and tell what is going on in our environment. the coded restriction of not hiding mdescs is a feature, not a bug. If everyone around is wearing the same dark hooded cloak and facewrap, you have to look at them individually to tell them apart, or use other features like height and weight to do it -- when weight is a very basic scale of 6, 7, 8, or 9 ten-stone.
if we add mdesc hiding, without there being a real justification for it.. eh, fuck it. I will be really upset at the change. If this is going to happen, I want it to reflect practice and skill. And like I said, we already have hide and sneak, which are pretty good for staying anonymous.
This is coming from someone who pretty much only plays stealth classes, btw. Many assassins. Many PKs and burglaries etc. I haven't had any trouble staying anonymous. It wasn't handed to me, but I used what is already in the game codedly to pull off many crimes. My fuckups were secondary to my inexperience to the crimcode at first, or just sloppiness that was realistic. If I had the extra barrier of mdesc protection then fuck it. Moreover, I have had my mdesc spilled a few times and it didn't end up being a problem due to the other things I did to cover myself. Finally, when I was busted famously, it was due to framing. None of my other crimes with that PC were ever linked to them.
I've always thought soldiers should get an arrest command. They are free to subdue anyone who is not resisting arrest. They can op to use that instead of trying subdue them with the skill which can fail and get a person killed. They can hold and question people they find suspicious like that, do what they need to do. I think contact person is otherwise enough in those situations.
Just playing devil's advocate to my own idea, and somewhat thinking in the lines of James there, but would anominity of that scale just make people be able to grief endlessly and more or less be unstoppable esspecially in combination with hide/sneak? Its pretty easy to flee from fights especially with hide/sneak and without anyway to reveal someone's identity readily, or be able to spot them readily from a crowd then even if you know their identity it might be very hard to catch someone. It might just become too easy to harrass people without much consequence. Again though would that be a problem? A soldiers might instead be a look out for people with certain gear, stopping and questioning concealed people that fit their vague discriptions. The world becomes a far more dangerous place, where being able to fight back and/or have friends to watch your back becomes much more important.
I'll keep wishing for two mdescs during chargen.
The first would include a descriptive of the head, face and body. The second would include a descriptive of the head and body only, no face.
And then the code would accommodate the whole thing, everyone can look, everyone can see whatever they see, and if the hood is up or a facewrap is on the face, they'd see all the rest of it; just not the face.
For the record, PC soldiers can subdue anyone without there being any fear of the criminal or victim being crim-flagged. I'm pretty sure (90% sure I've seen it happen, but it was a long time ago) even a failed subdue (ie the criminal has nosave arrest off) will not incriminate them. You can even flee from the PC soldiers subduing you and not be crim-flagged. That is, of course, as long as you have not already been crim-flagged. If you are crim-flagged and flee while you are subdued or successfully resist a soldier's subdue (with nosave arrest off), then the NPCs are going to be splattering you all over the ground.
Of course, fleeing from soldiers is a crime in itself. It just won't get you crim-flagged. Templars, however, may not be so understanding. With utter anonymity and a lack of means of revealing said person. A lot of people are just going to spam-flee if they haven't been crim-flagged. It's difficult to hold someone and wait for a templar to come crim-flag them or haul them somewhere for questioning when they know all they have to do is press flee until they succeed and then they can run off, change clothes, and laugh. That's why, as I mentioned before, I imagine the natural response would be to order soldiers to kill anyone disguised who attempts to flee. JDM's idea would help combat this, but only the coders know what is feasible.
Utter anonymity would result in a lot of player complaints.
Lizzie's solution is ideal, really, and I've heard it before. It would solve a lot of issues. I'm not certain, but I think the new code-base will make things like that a lot easier. *fingers crossed*
Quote from: racurtne on May 16, 2014, 08:53:35 AMThat's why, as I mentioned before, I imagine the natural response would be to order soldiers to kill anyone disguised who attempts to flee.
I was about to post this myself. There might be a lot more of 'k figure' to trigger crim-code than trying to grab someone. And isn't less insta-death the point of mdesc hiding?
It's already hard enough to try and collar someone who is running/fleeing.
Honestly, one of the things I think Shadows of Isildur got right is the "study" command.
The way I see it working in armageddon is if you have a cloak with a raised hood, and a veil/facewrap type item worn, your mdesc would be hidden. These things would be cheap and a dime a dozen. No unrealistic price-throttling.
BUT... if you 'study' someone, you get their main description (but NOT their sdesc). This action has a before-delay and echos to the target. If you have 'peek', it lets you roll to study them without them noticing.
That, combined with the assess command for height, weight, age, gender, and the accent code, should be enough to make things uncomfortable for outlaws without completely screwing them over.
It's not a perfect solution - there is no perfect solution for this scenario in a text-based game - but it would be a better compromise than what we have now.
Hmm. Yeah, I remember this. This would work.
D's idea could work.
Another possible solution would be to create an "unmask" command.
If could be based off of steal or subdue, but all classes would invisibly have it (basically an opposed str/dex roll), never be crim-flaggable (because its just offensive, clearly not harmful), and could be used against either masked or hooded characters. If someone was wearing both, you'd have to successfully "unmask" them twice.
No idea how hard any of these would be to code.
I'm actually really good with the idea of 'study'. Cloak + facewrap/mask + mdesc hidden. I'd like to see 'study' always reveal the mdesc, but the delay is built on your study skill. Or, make it a simple command that doesn't involve skill, and still invokes a delay, broken by success, failure, or you or the target leaving the area or hiding.
Or perhaps utilizing the watch skill?
If you can see someone long enough to 'watch' them, you can then study them. It also echoes to the 'victim' of study that they are being studied. This sort of reminds me of being mugged myself, and was told to keep my eyes on the ground, as to avoid 'studying' the assailant. It may circumvent some of the silliness indicated in the OP with raiders/sneaky types, and so on.
Ooh, combining it with the watch skill is a good idea. I like that.
The figure in a batmask has arrived from the north.
$ watch figure
You begin watching the figure in a batmask.
You notice: the figure in a batmask tried to steal something from the blue-robed templar.
The figure in a batmask chuckles.
The figure in a batmask sits at a stone bar.
You begin to discern some of the figure in a batmask's details.
$ look figure
It's Bruce Wayne, of course!
Geez, CodeMaster. Spoilers much?
Delirium's idea about studying, possibly integrated with watch and with a skill component: awesome. If we're going to inject steroids into anonymity, a tool to fight back is a must.
Unmask: Not sure about this one. For most of my PCs, I think the audacity of having a mask ripped off would be instant grounds for a dagger to the face. So, if it gives you kill rights without activating crimcode, or if we had brawl code that was more sophisticated, that'd be cool. But on its own, it feels out of place. Touching is taboo/undesirable in many cultures, many cultures that also wear masks. If people were suddenly ripping masks off each other without consequence, that'd be uncool. Unless they can be killed for doing such stupid shit, of course, in which case, feel free, dumbass.
The exception to the above is law enforcement, of course. Militia, high-ranking Fist, and Legions should be able to unmask without giving their victims the legal right to fight back.
..Yeah, I'm just not cool with unmasking. Sounds silly. But study perhaps using watch is awesome.
The study command, using watch as the skill-check, works fine for me.
As far as unmasking goes, I'd be fine with it, but here's my proposal regarding it.
Use the command take. It counts to the crim code in the same way steal does, but allows anybody to do it, and without the delay on steal. There's no hiding with this one. You're plainly seen doing it, both by the target, and by everyone in the vicinity, whether you succeed or fail.
As for skill checks, it checks to see if the target is subdued and applies an auto-fail to the attempt to resist the taking. If the attacker is hiding, they get a small bonus to the attempt, to imply a surprise snatch. The command would check strength and agility and offense for the attacker, and strength and agility and defense for the target.
syntax: take target's item
The burly soldier takes the male wearing a white mask's white mask.
The burly soldier tries to take the male wearing a white mask's white mask, but fails.
I think simple is always best. Using the Watch skill (already implemented) and having it feature a new code command that utilizes it (study) seems like the best fix.
If someone is unconscious or subdued, perhaps you can steal the object off them, effectively 'unmasking' them.
I'm liking Reiloth's... take... on things.
badumtish
Collaboration, yo.
Yeah, I do think tying it into the watch skill is better than peek.
A 'take' command makes sense if the target is subdued or unconscious.
Grab up some picket signs, let's start begging the coders.
Quote from: Delirium on May 17, 2014, 01:54:44 AM
Grab up some picket signs, let's start begging the coders.
I'm told they like Fritos. And Tab and Mountain Dew.
Order them a pizza. Everyone loves pizza.
No way. Coders like craft beer and gourmet coffee.
It is known.
Like five more ways for criminals to be better criminals.
That way, you don't have to feel like an irresponsible lazeabout about to lose their job because there's no OOC reason to give criminals some slack, and also I need to be more scared of criminals. Yes, I just said that. Now come into the game and make my day. On my next character. I like this one.
Craft beer and gourmet coffee are very much not exclusive with pizza.
Think pizza's mostly appreciated because it's very convenient to order.
My peers seem fond of energy drinks beyond mere caffeinated sodas or coffee but stuff like Red Bull scares me a bit. Whatever keeps you in flow though.
... I don't have much of a contribution to the actual thread. Anonymity's a cool idea with some stickiness in implementation that does serve to highlight some of the differences in assumptions we bring to this game and its code. Have been some good suggestions for making it work.
Quote from: James de Monet on May 17, 2014, 06:45:22 AM
I'm told they like Fritos. And Tab and Mountain Dew.
Sorry, allow me to rephrase: "I have it on
good authority that..."
http://youtu.be/qYodWEKCuGg (http://youtu.be/qYodWEKCuGg)
I'm a coder and I don't even know what they are except mountain dew (which I'm ambivalent towards).
(I do however know the song.)
Eesh, if you are gonna link code monkey, at least link the WOW version, it is better.