One of the suggestions in this particular forum is to have discussions about whether something is good RP. To quote:
QuoteDiscussions about whether or not something is good RP? Want to know how to emote something or handle it IC? All of that goes here.
There are some areas where there are opportunities to improve, whether it be in documentation or in RP'd behavior. This thread is meant for that. Perhaps these things can be added into a new FAQ or incorporated carefully into documentation where it makes sense, who knows? If you have suggestions, please list them below. If you have questions about boundaries for any particular kind of behavior, this thread is also for that, too. One of the expectations and hopes of the Original Submission Forum is that we can promote dialogue about GOOD RP as a good example to follow, and provoke some good discussions about how to handle such things in the future--but the other side of the coin means understanding what works in the gameworld and why some things do not work so well.
There are three areas in particular that I wanted to go over as they are possibly the easiest ones to discuss publicly (they cover a wide range of areas and are not specific to any particular area of the game). This thread may end up being limited; if we end up with enough to discuss apart from these three things then maybe it needs to be tossed into another thread with this kind of format assuming we have the time to do so.
Public Bashing of AuthorityBAD:Amos and Talia are in public in a tavern (picture a tavern in either city, really). They are talking badly about the templarate.
Snippets of hypothetical bad conversations:
1. "Wow, I just don't see what their problem is, you didn't do anything wrong!"
2. "And then he acted like a jerk and was a serious asshole to him, snubbing him the rest of the conversation."
WHY THIS IS BAD:Badmouthing the templarate or even an individual templar in public is a no-no. The templarate are simply better than you, by blood and by station. You may THINK one of those two things--perhaps fleetingly, perhaps intensely--but communicating that publicly would be foolish.
Snippet 1: You are not a templar. You do not second-guess templars, and if you do, you certainly don't do it publicly and in a derogatory fashion. "Wrong" is not objective, it is what the templarate says is wrong. OOCly it may well be unfair and douchey; ICly that has no bearing whatsoever. You know the rules of the game.
Snippet 2: This reeks of drama for the sake of drama, but again, see the above. You are
NOT a templar. You do
NOT question your betters in public. Whatever "he" did was probably deserving of being snubbed by a templar.
Where is this in the documentation?http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Roleplaying
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Noble
I do not see something for templars. Do we need to add that? Anyway, it seems that this is at least mentioned in a couple of places, though it is very basic.PROPER RESPONSE TO BAD BEHAVIOR:In both cases it should result in serious sanction by the powers that be--if not death--and it would be totally justified. "But Nyr, wasting my PC because I got snippy about a templar to other people sounds like overkill!" If you are defying the norms of the gameworld, flaunting your deviation from the cultural documentation publicly, the only recourse is harsh punishment to ensure that it is not repeated by your character--or anyone else.
HOW TO IMPROVE:Don't badmouth templars in public. Your character simply wouldn't do that unless they'd had a psychotic break. If that is the case, please plan out an RPT with staff so that we may have the powers that be animated to handle your character appropriately when that occurs. Privately, this is another matter. Your character should still understand that if he or she is reported ICly to the powers that be, that is going to be difficult to explain and it puts them in a tough IC position. Such things are or can be considered treason.
Racism and Prejudice in ZalanthasBAD:Amos believes in equal rights for elves, humans, dwarves, etc.
WHY THIS IS BAD:Prejudice exists in Zalanthas, both overtly and in subtle ways. No one should truly have this opinion in this kind of game. It does not add anything refreshing. It is not a nice departure from the usual tropes. It is simply bad roleplay.
Where is this in the documentation?Surprisingly, I'm having trouble locating this. There are mentions of prejudice in a few docs:http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Half-Elf%20Roleplay
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20Social%20Hierarchy
but nothing on racism or prejudice in general. Perhaps we need such a document.PROPER RESPONSE TO BAD BEHAVIOR:There's not much of one for this. It simply shouldn't occur in this gameworld.
HOW TO IMPROVE:Your character is always (at least a little) prejudiced against other races in some fashion. Your character doesn't necessarily have to have such racist beliefs equally, but they should have them. Is Amos a human? Ok. Does Amos like elves? This is a bit odd. Does Amos want to have sex with elves? This is beyond odd and now is quite an aberration. Does Amos want to be mates with an elf (as in have sex with the elf and start a family)? This is probably too much and should not occur; while some breeds are NOT the product of rape, your PC should not be the exception to trying to make that happen. Does Amos like dwarves? This is a bit odd. Does Amos want to have sex with dwarves? This is beyond odd and is now an aberration, and in fact, should occur far less often than consensual human-elf sex (which itself should be an aberration that should happen very rarely).
Furthermore, equal rights and democracy do not have a place in Zalanthas, but I think that the latter is properly represented in most documentation.
Skills vs. RoleplayBAD:A few scenarios below.
1. Amos and Talia spar for hours on end.
2. Any opportunity to increase skill is sought by Amos. No matter how harebrained, no matter how unrealistic, no matter how silly it seems, this is what Amos pursues. Heck, he sneaks out of the city sometimes just to go kill stuff, or sneaks into the 'rinth because he is bored and wants to kill stuff.
3. Skilling up is sought after more than actual roleplay towards any end that might require those skills to be used.
WHY THIS IS BAD:This is a roleplay-enforced game. All of these are not cool.
Where is this in the documentation?http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Roleplaying
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/FAQ_9
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Rules
PROPER RESPONSE TO BAD BEHAVIOR:Report this to staff if it is seen. Staff will handle it. This should not be occurring.
HOW TO IMPROVE:Scenario 1: Take breaks. Do some roleplay besides constantly worrying about your skill levels. Even if you aren't, you look like you are.
Scenario 2: Stop worrying so much about your skills. Period. This is a roleplaying game. "I'm bored" is an OOC player feeling, "I want to go kill some people" is the IC result, and staff label that as poor roleplay and bad player judgment. Stop playing the character as though it is a bunch of skills as a means to an end, and start playing the character as a person. It is possible to take the IC pursuit of skills too far, to the point where your actions (even if you have some kind of RP justification) look entirely motivated by OOC reasons ("I need more skill").
Scenario 3: This is a roleplay-enforced game. If you wish to spend your time skilling up your character in private (or unrealistically in any number of ways) with only scant opportunities to actually apply those skills appropriately...your time may be better served elsewhere.
This is meant to help players new and old alike. Please do not flame. If you go off on a rant, your post may be shoved off to moderation and you may be told to chill out.
fyi, based on the last half year of my playing this game, I think that the mud has done extremely well in maintaining all of those three, in general. If i were to hand out a kudos every time someone correctly was racist towards a half-elf or something, or showed the right mindset towards a templar, or handled sparring and training maturely, then I would REALLY have to be handing out more than a dozen kudos'.
So, just my two sids. Keep it up, everyone.
I think I'd like seeing the proposed help racism file, actually. It'd be very easy referring to it in case of someone acting oddly in an evidently OOC-motivated manner.
I agree with Patuk. It seems that sometimes newer players have issues with the racism thing. It's rare, but I've definitely seen it. Having a dedicated document that is referenced in the introductory information would be ideal.
Quote from: racurtne on February 21, 2014, 10:55:43 AM
I agree with Patuk. It seems that sometimes newer players have issues with the racism thing. It's rare, but I've definitely seen it. Having a dedicated document that is referenced in the introductory information would be ideal.
Yep, this is one of the things we reviewed when going over this kind of thing. If it is behavior that is not desired, is there something that points it out? It turns out that there is, but not quite in the places one would expect. It seems to be something we would all expect to be there (why not?) yet when searching for it, it doesn't come up under the expected search terms like "racism" or "prejudice".
It seems like an elegant way to make functioning in the game a little easier, yes. I don't think adding more help documents takes especially much effort - hell, I'll volunteer to write one myself if staff workload is especially high atm. Typing >ooc help racism certainly is easier than trying to explain how getting angry over insulting a dwarf over his race's position is inappropriate.
Quote from: Nyr on February 21, 2014, 10:16:06 AM
Furthermore, equal rights and democracy do not have a place in Zalanthas, but I think that the latter is properly represented in most documentation.
What about in a place like the Byn? There's still an undercurrent of the racism to be sure, but what of the "they paid their three sid, just like you. Deal." attitude? I find it a fantastic boundary to run along (and skirt occasionally) especially in cases where another race or a Northie vs Southie might put in a position of authority.
My PCs are usually racist. In fact in one case I remember a PC of mine got completely pissed off with someone that was snuggling up to an elf saying things like "Oh they aren't so bad." or "Not all of them steal." I should have put in a player complaint and sometimes I do, because for a human to do this is completely unacceptable according to existing documentation... Yes ALL sharps steal it says so in the documentation.
I've had other times when I'd put some people of non-human races above certain ones that are human (or look human anyways) because those particular people acted lower than the non-human's my character was around. I think every case needs to have its own feel. I go with what's right with the given situation. If that's crappy RPing I'm sorry and maybe I get dinged for it.
*raises his hand sheepishly* Yes, I've had characters that have talked ill of certain templars in public. That was a huge mistake and they never should have. I regret those cases a lot.
I do have a question about Racism, since I'm not quite familiar with how to react. I understand that elves and breeds are basically trash in clothes (hopefully), but how should a human PC, especially one who considers themselves better than most on the social ladder, treat dwarves? Should I be calling every one stump? Are they above elves but below X?
For that matter, when it comes to (human) elementalists in Allanak, where do they rest socially? Are they below other races, above them, or on the same level?
Also, in regard to the whole templar thing..
I think I'd like to point out that in both cities, people are likely going to be immensely scared and fearful of templars, and that said fear is going to be coupled with hate in many cases, too.
Downtalking the templarate in public is dumb, certainly, but I also notice that many characters don't seem to mind templars in general at all, and while there may be good reasons for all of those cases, and I certainly won't look down on it.. I still think most of the common populace would view templars as crazily scary and terrifying.
Quote from: QuillDipper on February 21, 2014, 11:15:29 AM
I do have a question about Racism, since I'm not quite familiar with how to react. I understand that elves and breeds are basically trash in clothes (hopefully), but how should a human PC, especially one who considers themselves better than most on the social ladder, treat dwarves? Should I be calling every one stump? Are they above elves but below X?
For that matter, when it comes to elementalists in Allanak, where do they rest socially? Are they below other races, above them, or on the same level?
Treat dwarves as you might treat black people around ~1900 in America. No longer insitutionally and permanently enslaved, but below everyone everywhere in society and people to look down upon for sure.
Also, 65% of them still are enslaved. Free dwarves are, population-wise, an anomaly.
the dwarves and elves question quilldipper had can be answered by targeting the specific sterotypes and biases that humans would have to each.
for elves, elves are tribal, familial, thieving. Dwarves are narrow-minded, rigid, unpredictable, and sometimes dangerous.
if your character is afraid for their safety more often than for their wealth, then maybe that character would be afraid of dwarves because you never know what bizarre ideas they have in their alien minds.
if, on the other hand, your character isn't afraid of what a dwarf can do, then they'd probably be fine with dwarves, but reluctant to trust them with a task that should probably be better left for a human.
Quote from: Patuk on February 21, 2014, 11:19:08 AM
Also, 65% of them still are enslaved. Free dwarves are, population-wise, an anomaly.
Can you state where you got this from? From reading in the dwarf race and dwarf roleplay files I see nothing stating that most of them are slaves and its a rarity to find free ones. I'm just looking for the point of reference.
Thank You
Quote from: slvrmoontiger on February 21, 2014, 11:33:42 AM
Quote from: Patuk on February 21, 2014, 11:19:08 AM
Also, 65% of them still are enslaved. Free dwarves are, population-wise, an anomaly.
Can you state where you got this from? From reading in the dwarf race and dwarf roleplay files I see nothing stating that most of them are slaves and its a rarity to find free ones. I'm just looking for the point of reference.
Thank You
I should bookmark this thing with how often I seem to post it. Lessee.
QuoteTuluk (350,000)
219,000 humans (50% are slaves) (62.6% of total)
108,500 elves (10% are slaves) (31% of Total)
3,500 dwarves (65% are slaves) (1% of Total)
3,500 half-giants (80% are slaves) (1% of Total)
7,000 half-elves (40% are slaves) (2% of total)
1,500 muls (98% are slaves) (0.4% of total)
7,000 unknown/other/mutant (25% are slaves) (2% of Total)
Allanak (481,880)
310,000 humans (50% are slaves) (150,000 free) (64.3% of total)
150,000 elves (10% are slaves) (135,500 free) (31.1% of total)
7,500 dwarves (65% are slaves) (2,600 free) (1.8% of total)
3,800 half-giants (20% are slaves) (3,150 free) (0.8% of total)
5,800 half-elves (40% are slaves) (3,400 free) (1.3% of total)
1980 muls (99% are slaves) (18 free) (0.4% of total)
2,800 unknown/other/mutant (40% are slaves) (1,400 free) (~0.6% of total)
Link: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,38969.msg535915.html#msg535915
There you go. Granted, the percentage isn't too much higher than with humans, but it's still telling. The history docs also imply for
all dwarves having been slaves, hence my '1900 black americans' comment.
Quote from: whitt on February 21, 2014, 11:08:01 AM
Quote from: Nyr on February 21, 2014, 10:16:06 AM
Furthermore, equal rights and democracy do not have a place in Zalanthas, but I think that the latter is properly represented in most documentation.
What about in a place like the Byn? There's still an undercurrent of the racism to be sure, but what of the "they paid their three sid, just like you. Deal." attitude? I find it a fantastic boundary to run along (and skirt occasionally) especially in cases where another race or a Northie vs Southie might put in a position of authority.
Provided that undercurrent of racism is still present, it's fine. If the subhuman is on the same level of rank as you, it's still pretty easy to treat them worse than you would otherwise, even if you "have" to work together with them. If they're your boss, the prejudice still exists but might present itself in a different fashion. You might hate your human Byn Sarge because they're an asshole and over time they might prove themselves to be a trustworthy and reasonable leader, and sometimes you still might think they are (or call them) an asshole. On the other hand, you might hate your elven Byn Sarge because they're an asshole, true...but also, they're an elf. They are measured against a much higher bar. The human asshole boss is going to have to be a tremendous asshole to be a bigger asshole than an elven asshole boss.
Even if they earn respect from you over time, that respect may always be ended with "for an elf." If you're familiar with the "Almost Politically Correct Redneck" meme, that's more along the lines of how a typical Zalanthan would address the issue if forced to acknowledge that they have some respect or admiration for a nonhuman.
He's a great Sergeant, for an elf.
She's not that big of an asshole, for an elf.
That doesn't necessarily mean your character should have a personal change of heart towards all elves. It would probably indicate to your character that this
one elf proved that despite their inherent racial flaws, they turned out to not be as big of a fuckup as you would've expected, given that they were an elf.
It helps that insulting the templarate, calling for equal treatment of races or being involved with different races romantically, or killing people randomly instantly grants a bunch of people a valid reason to kill you, even to those that don't necessarily need a reason at all. That's probably why stuff like this isn't much of a problem, or when it is, it gets solved so quickly that barely anyone notices.
It definitely would help to see a "help racism" documentation that would describe how people not of any given race would typically see members of that race, and state clearly that significant deviation from this would be considered abnormal.
Quote from: QuillDipper on February 21, 2014, 11:15:29 AM
I do have a question about Racism, since I'm not quite familiar with how to react. I understand that elves and breeds are basically trash in clothes (hopefully), but how should a human PC, especially one who considers themselves better than most on the social ladder, treat dwarves? Should I be calling every one stump? Are they above elves but below X?
Your character might think dwarves are worse than elves or vice versa. I do not think there is a better or worse case here, though it is worth pointing out that there it is probably more difficult to come up with IC reasons to be prejudiced against dwarves. They aren't shifty bastards as a race. They aren't out to steal your stuff. However, they are weird as a race. They are short. They are hairless. They're slave stock, and they are less numerous by far than your human brethren. They can be absolutely stubborn about the weirdest things. Apparently they're also part of some process that can make muls, which have the potential to be unstable and dangerous killing machines. Your character might think dwarves aren't as bad as elves since you run into more elves and they're worse "as a whole," but they're still dwarves.
As for those population figures, maybe that should be codified in documentation somewhere instead of on the GDB. I'll make a note of that. It may be that the numbers are off. I know it has been used as a general reference but I would not read too closely into each part of it.
Quote
For that matter, when it comes to (human) elementalists in Allanak, where do they rest socially? Are they below other races, above them, or on the same level?
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Elementalist%20Culture
This gives insight into the elementalist culture. They are a persecuted people--though they are feared. As the doc says, they did not get the temple(s) built for their own benefit, nor was it built by them, nor was it built to attract them. The temples are there to shove off the elementalists hopefully into their own area and get them out of the public eye--a classic case of prejudicial behavior. As it mentions there, a dwarven Whiran has a focus, an elven Suk-Krathi is still sly/sneaky/etc...therefore, that racism there will still exist from outside. A human elementalist compared to a dwarven elementalist might be treated better or worse. It really depends on the characters and the situation in question. When you mix in other factors like magick and the fear that is associated with magick, racism might take a back seat to that particular prejudice and fear.
By the way, the "hating on the templarate" example above goes just as well for the nobility, too. Don't expect -- or give -- a lot of sympathy to open complaints that Lady Oash or Chosen Lord Dasari was mean to you in public, or refused to give your friend a job, or such and such. Nobles and templars are allowed to do that, and all commoners understand it.
Quote from: Rahnevyn on February 21, 2014, 12:13:08 PM
By the way, the "hating on the templarate" example above goes just as well for the nobility, too. Don't expect -- or give -- a lot of sympathy to open complaints that Lady Oash or Chosen Lord Dasari was mean to you in public, or refused to give your friend a job, or such and such. Nobles and templars are allowed to do that, and all commoners understand it.
Mmr. Whereas I'll agree on this specific example, I'm also of the opinion that the general nobility is there to be high and mighty without being as feared as the templarate is. Nobles don't torture your friends to death publicly, nor do they leave a swathe of gone people behind wherever they show up, whilst also simultaneously employing a large deal of the workforce and being involved in projects and events that help out the common man in a tangible manner. In Tuluk especially, I'd say the nobility is less feared than the templarate is.
Quote from: Patuk on February 21, 2014, 12:26:44 PM
Quote from: Rahnevyn on February 21, 2014, 12:13:08 PM
By the way, the "hating on the templarate" example above goes just as well for the nobility, too. Don't expect -- or give -- a lot of sympathy to open complaints that Lady Oash or Chosen Lord Dasari was mean to you in public, or refused to give your friend a job, or such and such. Nobles and templars are allowed to do that, and all commoners understand it.
Mmr. Whereas I'll agree on this specific example, I'm also of the opinion that the general nobility is there to be high and mighty without being as feared as the templarate is. Nobles don't torture your friends to death publicly, nor do they leave a swathe of gone people behind wherever they show up, whilst also simultaneously employing a large deal of the workforce and being involved in projects and events that help out the common man in a tangible manner. In Tuluk especially, I'd say the nobility is less feared than the templarate is.
This I disagree with. I'd say nobles, who often bribe said Templars, would be feared too because you just KNOW if you step out of line the same fate will befall you.
Anyone smart anyway.
Quote from: ShaLeah on February 21, 2014, 12:36:11 PM
Quote from: Patuk on February 21, 2014, 12:26:44 PM
Quote from: Rahnevyn on February 21, 2014, 12:13:08 PM
By the way, the "hating on the templarate" example above goes just as well for the nobility, too. Don't expect -- or give -- a lot of sympathy to open complaints that Lady Oash or Chosen Lord Dasari was mean to you in public, or refused to give your friend a job, or such and such. Nobles and templars are allowed to do that, and all commoners understand it.
Mmr. Whereas I'll agree on this specific example, I'm also of the opinion that the general nobility is there to be high and mighty without being as feared as the templarate is. Nobles don't torture your friends to death publicly, nor do they leave a swathe of gone people behind wherever they show up, whilst also simultaneously employing a large deal of the workforce and being involved in projects and events that help out the common man in a tangible manner. In Tuluk especially, I'd say the nobility is less feared than the templarate is.
This I disagree with. I'd say nobles, who often bribe said Templars, would be feared too because you just KNOW if you step out of line the same fate will befall you.
Anyone smart anyway.
This is certainly true, but 'less feared' is different from 'not feared.' In Tuluk, a templar showing up someplace or singling someone out for conversation means a death sentence. In Allanak, the templarate tortures people, from the petty criminals to the simply unfortunate, all day, every day, in the very centre of town. The nobility simply does no such thing. It's true that making an enemy of one means a death sentence, but they are much less scary and malevolent-seeming than the templarate is.
Whether or not nobles should be "less feared" could be debated, and is at least partly up to who the particular noble is, but I didn't really intend to go there. My only point was to supplement Nyr's points about open criticism and derision of the templarate generally being bad; the same applies to the nobility in both cities. If you're a noble in Allanak yourself, you can probably get away with publicly calling another noble a twat. If you're a noble in Tuluk, you could get away with it as well, though you'd maybe be seen as crass and unsubtle and see some social penalties depending on your remarks. If you're a commoner in either city, no matter who you are, openly speaking out against your betters is something you'd be lucky not to be killed over.
There are still room for shades of grey I think. Breeds and dwarfs may annoy a character in particular organizations that allow non humans. But they are still one of you. Even if you treat your non human murder machines worse than your human ones, no grebber better fuck with them human or not.
Sometimes I find it hard to find the time to be racist against my minions unless their racial quirks are causing issues. I tend to be more racist in the hiring process than day to day.
Quote from: KankWhisperer on February 21, 2014, 02:19:44 PM
There are still room for shades of grey I think. Breeds and dwarfs may annoy a character in particular organizations that allow non humans. But they are still one of you. Even if you treat your non human murder machines worse than your human ones, no grebber better fuck with them human or not.
Sometimes I find it hard to find the time to be racist against my minions unless their racial quirks are causing issues. I tend to be more racist in the hiring process than day to day.
I think that's the hardest form of roleplay, for leaders of clans that allow for those things to be part of them, I however don't agree that they are "one of you". They're not until they are lifesworn and proven to the organization, that trumps the need to have to be proven to whoever leader is in charge at the time, you know?
I don't think leaders should be buddies with their minions, there should always be a healthy level of caution, respect and even fear. I've seen human leaders who do the above, they treat their human minions differently than they do their meatshield counterparts. Open disdain, beating the fuck out of them, giving them the shit jobs, cheering for the humans in spars, verbally degrading... that's what I like to see to be honest. Heh. That's exactly how it should be until that point in time where the lessers swear their lives. That is their highest possible level ever socially but guess what, there's always gonna be someone above them and that life swearing isn't gonna mean shit to people outside those organizations in a lot of cases. You can be the Byn/Kurac sergeant that hates lessers and for the sake of no discord amongst the ranks you keep your thoughts to yourself because you want that annoying walking elf to have your back when it comes down to it, or you can be the abusive shit that constantly has your boot on that stumps back when it cleans the latrines but, either way, if you got "Zalanthan jungle fever" and have the hots for that elf, you still wouldn't openly take it as a mate, even if the organization accepts them. You'll always lose the respect of those elitist humans and that's how it should be.
I give kudos to all you mingling leaders. I don't know if I could oocly find a medium.
Quote from: KankWhisperer on February 21, 2014, 02:19:44 PM
There are still room for shades of grey I think. Breeds and dwarfs may annoy a character in particular organizations that allow non humans. But they are still one of you.
I disagree somewhat. When you're ina clan that doesn't accept other races and lower classes you have no chance to show of that racial interaction, becuase you hardly ever run into those characters in a professional setting.
But when you have a clan like the Byn, where all those sorts mingle. That is the most appropriate time/place for conflict. I'm with Shal. I love this sort of roleplay and see it disregarded all too much. Even if it's a human runner back-talking to an elf sergeant. Is the Human Runner out of line? Yes, and he'll probably be punished. Is his roleplay out of line? Fuck no, that's a shining example of how to stir up some fun.
Quote from: ShaLeah on February 21, 2014, 03:05:58 PM
if you got "Zalanthan jungle fever" and have the hots for that elf
Just chiming in to say if I didn't love my current sig so much, this would be in there. Laughed so hard.
Shaleah is right.
Maybe I'm an optimist, but I've seen far more examples of everything Shaleah is mentioning than otherwise. It's rare these days that people are inappropriate. However, when that rare PC shows up who doesn't get this fine feature, I prefer to let IC events and happenings teach them how they should behave, because this is one of my favorite aspects of RP in the game. If we discuss it overly on the GDB, with a lot of "you should and will do this and that," no offense or anything cause I agree with you and all, then it kind of cheapens the learning curve. Another thing I won't do is file player complaints... getting a complaint that you're too noobish must be really disheartening.
edited to add: Have you seen the 'Byn lately!?
<Dayam.gif> (http://img.pandawhale.com/post-29437-Friday-DAYUM-DAMN-gif-Ice-Cube-SPYn.gif)
I think the confusion here is equating racism with hate. They are not the same thing, by any stretch of the imagination. Racism can beget hate, and visa versa, but they are not the same thing. Racism is, by definition, the belief that all members of a race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
Thus, you don't have to hate elves to believe that every single last one is a thief, and untrustworthy. You don't have to hate every human to know that they are smug, self-serving tyrants and oppressors of everything a dwarf ever tries to do. You don't have to hate dwarves to understand that they are stupidly stubborn and brazenly guileless, and have no clue of their place in the hierarchy of humanity. Remember that racism is not just a human trait - it exists for all species. Racism is also not always a complete embrace of every single meme about a race. It is, however, ultimately, the knowledge deep down inside that, in the end, you are of the superior race.
Also remember, although the racism being highlighted throughout this thread is human racism, understand that all races have the potential to be racist. Elves, in particular.
I really like the racism stuff. I like being racist to elves, breeds and dwarves and I love it when people are very racist back to me. Previous characters of mine (in my dark days of noobage) often had more open outlooks. I attribute that to me being a noob. Now, I love showing the hate.
From a human standpoint, breeds are loathsome things that are pitied and looked down on. Elves are thieving, sneaky bastards who you should always keep an eye on. Dwarves are kind of like a workhorse with a brain, I think they should be treated with a kind of condescension, like a simpleton who is good at being strong and tough, but is still 'a damn stump'. I think thought if your boss is of a higher rank than you, you should probably keep these ideas to yourself. Still think them, but don't say them about that particular specimen.
And yeah. Anyone who mouthes off to Templar can expect to be tortured and killed. In Zalanthas, people don't dig graves with shovels, they dig them with their own tongues.
The average Zalanthan should be a Templar fearing, Noble-boot kissing folk who hates the other races and isn't afraid to show it. Doing anything else risks people thinking you're some kind of weirdo sharp-lover.
Eh. Really gotta disagree on point #1. So long as the wrong company isn't around (I.E: People who would be trusted sources to the Templars), I don't see how this would be enforced. If Amos McGrebber runs up and says, "Lord Templar, Lord Templar! Talia (who you've never heard of beyond this report) said that Lord Tor is a poopyhead after he left the room! Look, this spiced up 'Rinther, a shifty-eyed half-elf and some mutant Byn runner are all backing up my story!", is an execution really going to follow? That doesn't seem like a viable way for a society to sustain itself, as everyone would have a killswitch for anyone that they didn't like that could be used at any time. On top of that, I'd imagine in a setting like the Byn, any runner who runs (heh) to the templars at the first sign of some other runner saying something disrespectful about the wrong person would be viewed in a similar way as a police informant in our world would be by other members of the lower-class.
My experience really only goes as far as Allanak, since I haven't played in Tuluk in a good couple years, and I understand that the dynamic between the king/templarate and the citizens is different there, but I've seen underhanded (not the overt 'it isn't right!' examples in the original post. Those should be laughed at) insults in the direction of the highborn played out in ways that I certainly considered realistic. There was also an IC event not -too- long ago that suggests questioning (and then some) one's so-called betters is not something unheard of in Zalanthas. Not sure if it's alright to bring it up as a specific example, though, so I'll leave that out.
I'm not talking about Amos running off to Templars to say Malik said Lord Templar Poopy was a Poopyhead. I'm talking about a guy in a tavern, ranting in public about Templars. He can expect to die.
Quote from: Scarecrow on February 21, 2014, 05:36:21 PM
I'm not talking about Amos running off to Templars to say Malik said Lord Templar Poopy was a Poopyhead. I'm talking about a guy in a tavern, ranting in public about Templars. He can expect to die.
Oh. Well than we largely agree, since any tavern in the city at any given time likely has someone within who the templars would trust the word of enough, whether virtual or PC.
I just disagree with the idea that badmouthing templars privately (even semi-privately, really) is dangerous business. Unless you're ranting to Silky McAideson or a soldier, I don't see how the word would ever reach the templars via a source credible to them.
I also didn't mean to make it seem as if my post was a rebuttal of yours. Sowwy!
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on February 21, 2014, 04:32:43 PM
I think the confusion here is equating racism with hate. They are not the same thing, by any stretch of the imagination. Racism can beget hate, and visa versa, but they are not the same thing. Racism is, by definition, the belief that all members of a race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
Thus, you don't have to hate elves to believe that every single last one is a thief, and untrustworthy. You don't have to hate every human to know that they are smug, self-serving tyrants and oppressors of everything a dwarf ever tries to do. You don't have to hate dwarves to understand that they are stupidly stubborn and brazenly guileless, and have no clue of their place in the hierarchy of humanity. Remember that racism is not just a human trait - it exists for all species. Racism is also not always a complete embrace of every single meme about a race. It is, however, ultimately, the knowledge deep down inside that, in the end, you are of the superior race.
Also remember, although the racism being highlighted throughout this thread is human racism, understand that all races have the potential to be racist. Elves, in particular.
Totally true, all of this.
Okay, fuck it, I'm writing up some kudos right now. I had a few interactions recently that I think merit them, because whoever was playing those PCs really grasped what 7DV is getting at. You just motivated me to make those kudos, 7DV!
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on February 21, 2014, 04:32:43 PM
I think the confusion here is equating racism with hate. They are not the same thing, by any stretch of the imagination. Racism can beget hate, and visa versa, but they are not the same thing. Racism is, by definition, the belief that all members of a race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
Thus, you don't have to hate elves to believe that every single last one is a thief, and untrustworthy. You don't have to hate every human to know that they are smug, self-serving tyrants and oppressors of everything a dwarf ever tries to do. You don't have to hate dwarves to understand that they are stupidly stubborn and brazenly guileless, and have no clue of their place in the hierarchy of humanity. Remember that racism is not just a human trait - it exists for all species. Racism is also not always a complete embrace of every single meme about a race. It is, however, ultimately, the knowledge deep down inside that, in the end, you are of the superior race.
Also remember, although the racism being highlighted throughout this thread is human racism, understand that all races have the potential to be racist. Elves, in particular.
You gave a few good examples of how we ought to view other races here, but you left a few out. I also can't really find much in the way of documentation, so here goes:
How should we view half-elves? Just as abominations? Should muls be viewed the same way?
What about half-giants? I know most people are generally nice to them because they're so easy to make use of, but is there some specific view that might be had regarding them?
Half-giants probably receive the best treatment of the non-human species, but only because they respond so well to positive input and are, frankly, freakin' huge. They are useful tools (in every sense of the word) but I doubt many people would ever think of them as anything better than a good, powerful and stupid pet. At worst they are to be exploited and lied to, used as expendable muscle with no thought to the harm that befalls them.
Muls are a good deal scarier than half-giants, I think. Not only are they usually owned by someone who could kill you for damaging his prized possession, they're capable of tearing you to pieces for looking at them the wrong way, and you never know when one will 'snap'.
Although I imagine a Mul gladiator could get quite a fanbase what with the creative gore shows he could make in the pits.
Half-elves are, as far as I can see, the most kickable of the races. They generally have no tribe, no family and few, if any, friends. The disgust felt towards them can be acted out more brazenly due to this.
Just my two sids on the issues.
Quote from: FreeRangeVestric on February 21, 2014, 05:26:24 PM
If Amos McGrebber runs up and says, "Lord Templar, Lord Templar! Talia (who you've never heard of beyond this report) said that Lord Tor is a poopyhead after he left the room! Look, this spiced up 'Rinther, a shifty-eyed half-elf and some mutant Byn runner are all backing up my story!", is an execution really going to follow?
Yes. But maybe not the execution that McGrebber was expecting. ;D
What Bleakone said.
I remember being part of a pretty strong human/dwarf friendship.... that's what the OP reminded me of. This was past the newbie point, and it wasn't facepalming bad, but I wonder if I could have improved upon the realistically of the relationship. Like, how strange would it be for an elf and a dwarf, who click as friends, have by circumstance had to live together for a long time, and in a fairer world would be best friends, to really be best friends as long as they didn't act that way in public, and as long as they retained normal doubts about each other's worth as people? Just realized I really don't have anything good to go on for this.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on February 21, 2014, 04:32:43 PM
I think the confusion here is equating racism with hate. They are not the same thing, by any stretch of the imagination. Racism can beget hate, and visa versa, but they are not the same thing. Racism is, by definition, the belief that all members of a race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
Thus, you don't have to hate elves to believe that every single last one is a thief, and untrustworthy. You don't have to hate every human to know that they are smug, self-serving tyrants and oppressors of everything a dwarf ever tries to do. You don't have to hate dwarves to understand that they are stupidly stubborn and brazenly guileless, and have no clue of their place in the hierarchy of humanity. Remember that racism is not just a human trait - it exists for all species. Racism is also not always a complete embrace of every single meme about a race. It is, however, ultimately, the knowledge deep down inside that, in the end, you are of the superior race.
Also remember, although the racism being highlighted throughout this thread is human racism, understand that all races have the potential to be racist. Elves, in particular.
Exactly. Don't push yourselves
too hard here, folks. You don't have to react to everything different with hate, there are plenty of other ways to express it. While there will certainly be those who react with hate, keep in mind your PCs circumstances and the potential consequences. If your boss is an elf and you backtalk them openly, or say something behind their back, you should definitely be considering what their reaction might be or what form of retribution may take place with your racist view of them. Your PC will KNOW that other PC will have less consideration for your PCs prejudice than their human counterparts, and as such might go a bit further than expected to make an example of someone. While you know Amos the human may consider one punishment appropriate and may apply it openly, who knows what that wicked, scheming sharp will come up with?
Quote from: Fujikoma on February 22, 2014, 08:10:46 PM
Exactly. Don't push yourselves too hard here, folks. You don't have to react to everything different with hate, there are plenty of other ways to express it.
Likewise consider how to use this as an expression of dislike for others of your own race. "Oh, Amos, are you dying of thirst? I just gave the filthy Elf my last sip of water."
This is a very cool post. Thanks! I would love to see it expanded even more.
Since coming back after a ~2 year break I have seen some stuff that just left me rather disheartened. People expecting to be able to talk back to Templars and actually getting away with it, humans sticking up for elves, gemmers acting like they have some sort of prestige (and others drinking with them like nothings wrong). The old social pecking order seems to have just vanished and been replaced with this huge hug-fest. Maybe it is my limited view since I've returned but things seem a lot softer. Maybe I'm wrong.
Of course, I do plan to try and be the change that I want to see. So, next time you...
* Talk back to a Templar and end up with your tongue cut out
* Get robbed in an alley and end up dead after twink-running away
*Try to act like an elf isn't a worthless thieving scum-bag and get chastised
* Be buddy-buddy with numerous gemmers and wind up with some disease
...think of me. =)
Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on February 28, 2014, 10:12:01 PM
This is a very cool post. Thanks! I would love to see it expanded even more.
Since coming back after a ~2 year break I have seen some stuff that just left me rather disheartened. People expecting to be able to talk back to Templars and actually getting away with it, humans sticking up for elves, gemmers acting like they have some sort of prestige (and others drinking with them like nothings wrong). The old social pecking order seems to have just vanished and been replaced with this huge hug-fest. Maybe it is my limited view since I've returned but things seem a lot softer. Maybe I'm wrong.
Of course, I do plan to try and be the change that I want to see. So, next time you...
* Talk back to a Templar and end up with your tongue cut out
* Get robbed in an alley and end up dead after twink-running away
*Try to act like an elf isn't a worthless thieving scum-bag and get chastised
* Be buddy-buddy with numerous gemmers and wind up with some disease
...think of me. =)
...and coming back from a long haitus, you wouldn't have any knowledge of the background of these characters. You'd have no idea that the mundane and the gemmer have a long history, which began with distrust and fear, and eased its way over time into a cordial bar-related comeraderie. In other words - they might not even be friends, or ever hang out privately - but they are constantly at the bar at the same time coincidentally, and they both realize that neither of them are interested in harming the other, and so they relax and actually say hello and occasionally have a conversation.
That is what happens when you become familiar with someone who doesn't actually ever get inspired to harm you. You're free to go, they're not keeping you there. They're not forcing you to talk to them, they're not threatening you, they're not insulting you - they're just trying to relax, maybe watch the local entertainment, grab a beer - same as you, how about that. So what if they're a breed. A person only has so much energy to expend on hating - eventually you have to chill out and stop obsessing over the fact that it's a breed. Or a gemmer. Or whatever else it is. If you're at the bar, and you're all relaxing and being relatively sane and relatively peaceful and relatively civilized, then you really just have to go with the flow or else people will know you as an instigator. And - instigators are the ones who end up dead on the side of the road (or in the arena).
You're showing up - possibly weeks, even maybe months, after the people in question had met. You have no idea what led up to their cordiality or visible civility toward each other.
[/quote]
...and coming back from a long haitus, you wouldn't have any knowledge of the background of these characters. You'd have no idea that the mundane and the gemmer have a long history, which began with distrust and fear, and eased its way over time into a cordial bar-related comeraderie. In other words - they might not even be friends, or ever hang out privately - but they are constantly at the bar at the same time coincidentally, and they both realize that neither of them are interested in harming the other, and so they relax and actually say hello and occasionally have a conversation.
That is what happens when you become familiar with someone who doesn't actually ever get inspired to harm you. You're free to go, they're not keeping you there. They're not forcing you to talk to them, they're not threatening you, they're not insulting you - they're just trying to relax, maybe watch the local entertainment, grab a beer - same as you, how about that. So what if they're a breed. A person only has so much energy to expend on hating - eventually you have to chill out and stop obsessing over the fact that it's a breed. Or a gemmer. Or whatever else it is. If you're at the bar, and you're all relaxing and being relatively sane and relatively peaceful and relatively civilized, then you really just have to go with the flow or else people will know you as an instigator. And - instigators are the ones who end up dead on the side of the road (or in the arena).
You're showing up - possibly weeks, even maybe months, after the people in question had met. You have no idea what led up to their cordiality or visible civility toward each other.
[/quote]
Is this sarcasm?
"So what if they're a breed. A person only has so much energy to expend on hating - eventually you have to chill out and stop obsessing over the fact that it's a breed. Or a gemmer. Or whatever else it is. If you're at the bar, and you're all relaxing and being relatively sane and relatively peaceful and relatively civilized, then you really just have to go with the flow or else people will know you as an instigator."
I'm sorry but I'm really not sure if you are being serious or not. I like to hope not, otherwise this is exactly what I am talking about. So what if they're a breed/gemmer? Really?
If you sit at a bar with a gemmer for too long and you'll get sores in odd places or you just might catch what they have. If a whiran sneezes, you will not be able to rest for a month. A drovian made eye-contact? Thats it, the shadows are going to eat you in your sleep. That breed sitting next to you is an abomination, not your friend. That elf? Bastard just wants to slit your throat and take your 'sid. Everything that has ever gone wrong in your life is likely because of a magicker. Ever loose something? Nope, an elf stole it!
Coming back after a two year break things are not exactly as I remember them to be. Imagine that.
I must admit I haven't seen any "hug-fest" going on, but I do agree it's good form to keep fear of magickers, distrust of elves and the like up as much as you can.
Those who be disrespectful to Templars generally do end up dead, from my experience. If the commoner in question is vaguely useful they probably will get a chance to apologize and bribe their way out of it. Also, depending where you live, seeing a Templar leave someone alone doesn't mean the Ministry of Love doesn't come around later and scoop them up, never to be seen again.
Elves are extremely numerous in the vNPC population, so it's a bit silly to sneer and pour scorn on all the elves you see, since you still need a few hours a day to work for sids. Just don't trust or be buddy-buddy with them without -really- good IC reason. You know they are all thieves and liars, even the ones you might dislike less than the rest.
As for the gemmed, only an idiot makes a walking nightmare angry. Imho it's better to fearfully change tables or shift down the bar when a magicker sits at the bar than make a sneer or tell them to fuck off, unless you have some reason to believe they can't make your eyes fall out when they get back to whatever hole they crawled out of.
However, as I said before, I think the perception of a 'hug-fest' is not particularly correct. We can always improve, however, and I for one will make a conscious effort to better my hatin' RP.
Quote from: Lizzie on February 28, 2014, 11:30:34 PM
Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on February 28, 2014, 10:12:01 PM
This is a very cool post. Thanks! I would love to see it expanded even more.
Since coming back after a ~2 year break I have seen some stuff that just left me rather disheartened. People expecting to be able to talk back to Templars and actually getting away with it, humans sticking up for elves, gemmers acting like they have some sort of prestige (and others drinking with them like nothings wrong). The old social pecking order seems to have just vanished and been replaced with this huge hug-fest. Maybe it is my limited view since I've returned but things seem a lot softer. Maybe I'm wrong.
Of course, I do plan to try and be the change that I want to see. So, next time you...
* Talk back to a Templar and end up with your tongue cut out
* Get robbed in an alley and end up dead after twink-running away
*Try to act like an elf isn't a worthless thieving scum-bag and get chastised
* Be buddy-buddy with numerous gemmers and wind up with some disease
...think of me. =)
...and coming back from a long haitus, you wouldn't have any knowledge of the background of these characters. You'd have no idea that the mundane and the gemmer have a long history, which began with distrust and fear, and eased its way over time into a cordial bar-related comeraderie. In other words - they might not even be friends, or ever hang out privately - but they are constantly at the bar at the same time coincidentally, and they both realize that neither of them are interested in harming the other, and so they relax and actually say hello and occasionally have a conversation.
That is what happens when you become familiar with someone who doesn't actually ever get inspired to harm you. You're free to go, they're not keeping you there. They're not forcing you to talk to them, they're not threatening you, they're not insulting you - they're just trying to relax, maybe watch the local entertainment, grab a beer - same as you, how about that. So what if they're a breed. A person only has so much energy to expend on hating - eventually you have to chill out and stop obsessing over the fact that it's a breed. Or a gemmer. Or whatever else it is. If you're at the bar, and you're all relaxing and being relatively sane and relatively peaceful and relatively civilized, then you really just have to go with the flow or else people will know you as an instigator. And - instigators are the ones who end up dead on the side of the road (or in the arena).
You're showing up - possibly weeks, even maybe months, after the people in question had met. You have no idea what led up to their cordiality or visible civility toward each other.
Because weeks or a month of IG time can provide any reasonable explanation for Dudeson the average-looking human hunter/bynner being buddy-buddy with any city-elf/breed (especially if they're not clanned together), acting like Mr. gemmed is a respectable member of the community, or talking back to a templar instead of cowering in fear and reverence. Note, this is me being goofy. I think those claims are somewhat ridiculous, as it doesn't fit the docs and would be, in my opinion, horrible RP.
And then you go onto say that, for example, people ridiculing that necker's human buddy or that gemmed's buddy will be seen as instigators and end up dead.
Please, give me a break. If anything, the one going around and patting breed's on the back or jerking off gemmers should be the one dead. Acting according to the docs shouldn't mark you as abnormal or an asshole who needs to die. <-- edited to be less of a snark
EDI: Deleted, lack of sleep makes me cranky and nasty. Sorry everyone.
My two sid on the current argument:
Someone posted earlier about a "trust spectrum" or something, and I think that's the most realistic way to handle this sort of thing.
Amos is never going to trust a filthy krathdamned necker just because they happened to drink at the same bar for a while. He might be willing to adjoin said necker's conversations, eventually, if he finds whatever they're talking about to be particularly interesting, sure. There'd still be a healthy bit of distrust, though, sure, because as far as Amos is concerned elves lie, steal, and swindle. They don't know any better, and they can't help it. They shouldn't be trusted, and when something of Amos' goes missing after a night of binge-drinking, that elf who he's sat down the bar from plenty of times before should be a prime suspect. After all, the sharp had plenty of time to stake him out!
He might have a bit more respect or trust for the elf in his clan, if he's employed by a clan that allows elves, but that should probably be decided as a case-by-case basis. If it ever goes beyond "I can probably sleep in the same building as this guy without getting my throat slit," or "we can work together on clan goals, and there's a good chance he won't kill me/leave me for dead right off the bat," it should probably get side-eyed. I'd expect it to.
Like Zerero has said, and plenty of others have pointed out: There is documentation on this. There should be a healthy amount of hate/fear/etc. If a gemmed sits at the bar with you, you should probably at least slide down and away them from a bit.
I haven't seen any of the carebear crap that Lizzie is going on about, and, thank Tek, I haven't seen much or any of the stuff Lonely Hunter is talking about. Sure, everyone, including myself, has room to improve on their hatin', but it's not nearly as terrible as either of you are making it out to be.
If you ask me, the post that kicked off this "discussion" is little more than someone announcing that they're back, and trying to get everyone hyped about how they're going to shake things up. That's cool, man, but maybe show and don't tell.
Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on March 01, 2014, 12:29:10 AM
"So what if they're a breed. A person only has so much energy to expend on hating - eventually you have to chill out and stop obsessing over the fact that it's a breed. Or a gemmer. Or whatever else it is. If you're at the bar, and you're all relaxing and being relatively sane and relatively peaceful and relatively civilized, then you really just have to go with the flow or else people will know you as an instigator."
I'm sorry but I'm really not sure if you are being serious or not. I like to hope not, otherwise this is exactly what I am talking about. So what if they're a breed/gemmer? Really?
If you sit at a bar with a gemmer for too long and you'll get sores in odd places or you just might catch what they have. If a whiran sneezes, you will not be able to rest for a month. A drovian made eye-contact? Thats it, the shadows are going to eat you in your sleep. That breed sitting next to you is an abomination, not your friend. That elf? Bastard just wants to slit your throat and take your 'sid. Everything that has ever gone wrong in your life is likely because of a magicker. Ever loose something? Nope, an elf stole it!
Except, you AREN'T breaking out in sores, and you AREN'T manifesting magicks. You find, after time, that when this particular gemmer shows up, or that breed who is always there, is there at the bar with you, none of the horrible evil wicked things you've heard will happen, are happening. So you accept that these people are at the bar, and you learn to tolerate those particular mages and breeds, or northerners or rinthis, or whatever they are. You STILL think breeds are abominable, mages are scary and evil, elves steal, Tuluk must be destroyed, and rinthis are pathetic and miserable. But those two particular ones who are always at the bar when you're at the bar, have proven that they can behave civilly when you're in the bar at the same time.
You wouldn't take the gemmer to your apartment to talk. You wouldn't invite the breed over to dinner. You wouldn't go with the rinthi to meet his mom. You wouldn't hand over your pack because the elf wants to see the fibers it's made of closer. But when you're all at the bar together, you will have come to a mutual tolerance with each other, include them when you buy a round for the bar, and perhaps maybe share a joke when someone even more deplorable than they are shows up (such as - the breed gemmer who was originally from Tuluk and has settled into the rinth. That person would be MORE deplorable than the human gemmer, or the rinthi dwarf, or the breed citizen who was born and raised in Nak.)
So no, I wasn't being sarcastic. I'm saying - as I said before, you show up and observe Amos being friendly with Malik at the bar. But you have no idea how long they couldn't stand each other, feared each other, threatened each other, attempted to avoid each other, until they finally realized that neither of those two people were going to a) go anywhere or b) hurt the other. And finally - they settled into a comfortable bar-comeraderie. Not a personal intimate relationship. Sort of like Lilith and Cliff Claven at the same bar in Cheers. Two people who would otherwise never EVER be seen in the same place at the same time, on purpose, ever - and would likely avoid each other at parties. But when they're at the bar, they make attempts to get along and include each other in conversation.
Quote from: Lizzie on March 01, 2014, 09:00:12 AM
Sort of like Lilith and Cliff Claven at the same bar in Cheers. Two people who would otherwise never EVER be seen in the same place at the same time, on purpose, ever - and would likely avoid each other at parties. But when they're at the bar, they make attempts to get along and include each other in conversation.
It's a little known fact that this is the first ever reference to Cheers on the GDB. If you pull off a Night Court reference, you will be my GDB hero.
Just touching base on a couple of points because this sub-conversation is starting to loose its contributing value, I believe.
* It wasn't one or two people that I observed this with. It was several different instances with different PCs involved.
* I never said that I didn't expect the game to be different after two years. If you are going to imply that I meant something, use an actual quote or at least contribute instead just trolling, Fujikoma. Though I guess since I just responded to it, you get +10 trolling exp?
* Maybe you didn't -really- break out in sores but I bet -you're character- stubbed their toe (Ruk?), tripped (Whiran), had a nightmare (Drov), lost a bet (whiran), cut their finger sharpening a blade and bled a lot (Vivadu), or maybe lost a sparring match (Elkros or Krathi?). Unless, of course, their life is perfect without these little nuances. Most people are taught that everything that goes wrong is either because of (if you are human) elves or magickers.
No, I don't expect things to be the same. That was taken out of context. Evolution is a good thing though we always have fond memories of things passed. I was merely stating an observation I had based on numerous instances over the last month as related to the original post in an attempt to contribute by giving an "outside" point of view. Sometimes when you are around something all the time, you can't tell that those little differences build up to be something quite different.
I've been around for a long time, even with with a couple short breaks. I've seen and done a lot. I'm not jumping the gun and throwing accusations or trying to bash anyone. I am trying to be productive and helpful, I hope that some people took it as such even if they don't agree.
If a shadowy one looks at you with a drink in their hands, your neighbor's mother's cousin will disappear this very evening.
When shadows creep on you suddenly, it surely must be a magicker. Kiss the back of your hands and pray to the Highlord to ward it off.
Kiss the ground for the Highlord before bed, and He will protect you from magickers robbing your breath.
If you see a Krathi in the throes of their magicks, you will suffer burning sensations for weeks.
If flames flare when a Krathi laughs, you will get boils on your bottom for three days.
If a Whiran smiles at you, you must go gamble this very day, or else you'll have ill fortune for a month.
If you see an even number of feathers and feel Whira in the same day, you will suffer itchy feet for two weeks.
If you hear a Whira sneeze, you will suffer the wanderlust for a month.
Five feathers woven into a cross will ward off minor Whiran ailments.
When the winds rages and stones flies, a whiran and a rukkian are battling somewhere; you must seek shelter or suffer in their stead.
Be warned, if you cross an angry Rukkian, your home might be swallowed up into the ground.
If the walls of your home shake and tremble, you must feed the earthen ground quickly, lest it collapse on you.
If a Vivaduan wishes you a good day, you will bear children quickly and easily. (both a blessing and a curse)
When a Vivaduan sings, everyone who can hear it will become thirsty within the hour.
<deleted because yeah, it's too much IC info. Don't really mean to be attacking anyone at all.>
As a player who's spent most of my time in Tuluk, conflicts between what I see in Nak and what I read in the docs make me confused about how I should play my PC.
Better? :)
Quote from: Refugee on March 01, 2014, 12:07:17 PM(thanks for editing)
(no response from me on this!)
I'd contribute something, but yeah, might be offering up IC info.
Reading an old Player Submissions page about an Allanaki Senate meeting, I saw staff animate a Black Robe to put the smackdown on a vote to make the gemmed illegal. I don't see what's wrong with a Templar protecting a useful gemmed, if the staff-animated Black Robes are willing to humiliate a highborn, high-ranking Senator in order to keep their useful gemmed around.
Magickers are monsters, but the templarate use them for a lot of things and doesn't want commoners ruining a tried and tested tool. A useless commoner trying to break a Templar's things, be it a useful gemmed or a fancy bag, is going to find himself in trouble.
Since Refugee changed his post, mine is no longer relevant. Edited to reflect this.
Without trying to start a semantics war, I've always seen Gemmed as slaves of the city state (but only slightly more so than you general Amos No-house).
Pick on a nobody gick... templar is not going to care. Pick on LT Hunglo Fale's pet Krathi.... get ready for the arena.
I really agree with The Lonely Hunter. We come into this with some agreements enforced not by code, but by culture. Some of those agreements include xenophobia and a fear of magickers. If you make an exception for the exceptional once every 10-20 pcs then you're still holding up your end. But if ten out of twelve of us are regularly making exceptions because the OTHER (be they elf or breed or magic user) is cute, or funny or harmless or well rped, then we are not collectively preserving the game world. And we're not holding up our end. That quickly becomes a problem. The next thing you know, everyone is asking to have their karma removed.
IC events you never noticed maybe happened. Don't hate if you don't know the full story.
IC events always happen, but our responsibility remains the same. Its easier not to play the docs. Again there is room for the exceptional, but that should be the exception.
If there were 'IC events' that amounted to 'people do not distrust breeds and magickers as much as they used to,' I think that would warrant a doc change and an announcement.
Don't worry! My characters are still all racists and, uh...magick-ists... The previously described scenario where even the lowliest sort of gemmed is treated as a prized possession of the state sorta irks me too. Wouldn't the Templars be wary of siding so unilaterally with a population that the citizens they are trying to hold power over (which involves them accepting that power, at least to some extent) view with hostility and fear?
Southern Templars are one of the few roles which are not supposed to fear the gemmed, so I still don't see the problem with the Templarate doing whatever it wants to them or for them as they see fit. After all, what could a witch do to someone who speaks with the will of the Highlord? I don't think the Templars particularly care what the people think, either.
For most others, yeah, don't buddy up with magickers.
Quote from: BleakOne on March 01, 2014, 08:17:56 PM
I don't think the Templars particularly care what the people think, either.
Yeah, but they likely do realize that Joe-blow commoner has them outnumbered at something like 200 to 1, and there might eventually be repercussions if a group of people that all of the citizenry is taught are the scum of the Earth is openly and unilaterally placed in a higher place in society than they are. Even the most oppressive regime has to 'care' enough to not reach a place where they have full-blown riots on their hands...
...But I guess putting down said uprising could fall to the superpowered, do-anything-they-like sorcerer king serving as a deus ex machina to keep the game world as it is comes into play...But, I digress...
Yeah, unlike on Earth, in this case the government doesn't actually need to fear the people, since the government can lay waste to armies by breathing on them.
Quote from: Barzalene on March 01, 2014, 08:11:58 PM
IC events always happen, but our responsibility remains the same. Its easier not to play the docs. Again there is room for the exceptional, but that should be the exception.
Quote from: FreeRangeVestric on March 01, 2014, 08:15:51 PM
If there were 'IC events' that amounted to 'people do not distrust breeds and magickers as much as they used to,' I think that would warrant a doc change and an announcement.
IC events happen between individual PCs that aren't going to amount to requiring doc changes. That was Lizzie's whole point: if you log in after two years and see two PCs getting along that you think shouldn't, you're totally in the dark as to
why those two particular PCs are "getting along" at that moment. Saying the whole game world has gone soft because of what you've seen is a little pompous.
To be fair, the Chronology page does seem to be missing one major incident of mundanes and 'gickers not getting along that happened before some of the other most recently listed events.
Quote from: FreeRangeVestric on March 01, 2014, 08:29:29 PM
Quote from: BleakOne on March 01, 2014, 08:17:56 PM
I don't think the Templars particularly care what the people think, either.
Yeah, but they likely do realize that Joe-blow commoner has them outnumbered at something like 200 to 1, and there might eventually be repercussions if a group of people that all of the citizenry is taught are the scum of the Earth is openly and unilaterally placed in a higher place in society than they are. Even the most oppressive regime has to 'care' enough to not reach a place where they have full-blown riots on their hands...
That's what Gemmed are for: on top of a Templars' own abilities, they can tip the scales if deployed correctly. The Templarate keeps them around for various reasons, not the least of which are their destructive potential.
Quote
...But I guess putting down said uprising could fall to the superpowered, do-anything-they-like sorcerer king serving as a deus ex machina to keep the game world as it is comes into play...But, I digress...
If people are actually seeing what looks like doc violations (Gemmed being put in a higher place in society) they should report them in player complaints instead of wangsting about them on the forums. Then staff can actually look in to the problem.
I've personally seen a lot more diffusing of situations and forced separations (where the Gemmed gets the rawer end of the deal) than these alleged inciednts of "lol don't touch my gemmed you comminer."
I was speaking generally. I haven't seen this particular instance. I just think k its good that we check in now and then and renew the agreements and make sure we're all facing the same direction still.
Quote from: Scarecrow on March 01, 2014, 06:51:10 PM
Quote from: Refugee on March 01, 2014, 12:07:17 PM
I've noticed this about the gickers too. I've heard PCs in authority say that gicks had earned their respect, or that they were okay by them, because of actions in-game.
One thing that shocked me is that the templarate protects them. I understand they are useful tools. But you've got gicks sitting in the bar provoking someone, and if that someone takes a swing at the gick, he'll end up in the arena unless he's purchased previous permission from the templarate to punch the gick. I heard a templar say this myself. The only other PCs with this sort of protection is the Arm and nobility. So now you have gicks sitting around able to behave in any manner they want, and when someone tells them to shut up they pull out the templar card. It grants them a social status above normies that doesn't seem to fit with the docs.
It makes me uncertain as to how my PC should behave toward them.
This statement is both misleading and incorrect, and as Lizzie says, doesn't belong on the GBD.
His statement wasn't misleading and wasn't incorrect. Leave policing the GDB to the mods.
Long post deleted because you're all being silly, just play the game already.
Certainly there is a point to saying IC events influenced your character's feelings about x group, but the doc proponents have a point, too. If you see people being favorable to downtrodden groups more than not (or on a daily basis), there is a strong possibility at that point that those 'IC circumstances' are over-represented. Maybe PCs need to be more settled in their doc like ways out of chargen, making it harder for 'circumstances' to reverse the pendulum?
How long would it take of you living safely in a bad neighborhood before you decided that the 'ghetto' wasn't really that bad?
Six months? A year?
It should probably take your PC as much time of close contact with an undesirable to start reversing similarly deeply held prejudices.
How many bad things would it take to send that 6-12 mos of confidence crashing to the ground? One? Also applicable.
A gicker being nice to your PC once, twice, three times isn't 'circumstances', IMO. That's a fluke, or an ulterior motive.
Quote from: James de Monet on March 02, 2014, 12:05:44 AM
Certainly there is a point to saying IC events influenced your character's feelings about x group, but the doc proponents have a point, too. If you see people being favorable to downtrodden groups more than not (or on a daily basis), there is a strong possibility at that point that those 'IC circumstances' are over-represented. Maybe PCs need to be more settled in their doc like ways out of chargen, making it harder for 'circumstances' to reverse the pendulum?
How long would it take of you living safely in a bad neighborhood before you decided that the 'ghetto' wasn't really that bad?
Six months? A year?
Two days. I've lived in good areas and bad areas. If I wasn't capable of determining whether or not I could survive in any given neighborhood, I wouldn't have survived it past two days. I lived in a ghetto tenement crack house where the snow came in through the roof and we used a bunk bed to keep it from falling on our heads, and we used the oven to heat the kitchen. It was really THAT bad. And yet, I knew within the first two days whether or not I'd be able to survive there - and get to know the locals, and be accepted by them.
Quote
It should probably take your PC as much time of close contact with an undesirable to start reversing similarly deeply held prejudices.
I think it should take a PC more time than that, of not-so-close contact with an undesireable, to start accepting *THAT ONE PC.* There should be no reversing of deeply held prejudices in a world like Armageddon.
QuoteA gicker being nice to your PC once, twice, three times isn't 'circumstances', IMO. That's a fluke, or an ulterior motive.
Someone being nice to a mage from the first moment of contact, should be either a fluke, an ulterior motive, or a noob who didn't bother to take the docs seriously.
Someone treating the mage with suspicion, fear, loathing, hatred, general avoidance, or barely-present outward tolerance while inwardly wishing death upon the mage - is the norm. That same someone seeing ONE mage, TWO mages, at the bar - week after week, who have shown absolutely no sign that they are a threat to them personally, who the templars are making use of, who certain people of influence are treating with care - if not with actual cordiality - is likely to eventually warm up to them and at LEAST tolerate those TWO mages, while still thinking the general mage population is out to use their dismembered penises as altar sacrifices. But THOSE TWO mages - at least - have proven that your penis is safe, at least from those two mages. It's all the other mages you have to worry about. But not those two.
Shoot, I was raised in an extremely conservative family, white, lower middle-class. Fear and distrust of the poor? You bet your ass.
You know how long it took me to feel safe surrounded by African American homeless people with mental illnesses? About two or three days. I had to learn to trust, quickly. The people around me took me in and treated me like a family member, because we were going through the same shit, some said they could look in my eyes and see the good inside me, and that it was rare, would have written it off as crazy talk but I've heard it too many times before. I found myself living in an area devastated by crack cocaine and the looming presence of the Atlanta Falcons stadium, which cut them off from downtown.
Basic training, know how long it took me to trust the people around me? At least a month. I learned right off the bat they were a bunch of dishonest thieves. Didn't have trouble with anyone but the white people, for some reason, they were violent liars who would break into your locker and steal your stuff. Did my lack of trust somehow influence them to mess with me? Maybe a little. The only people I've ever had trouble with had the same skin color as I do, and I'll admit it, it's made me a tad bit racist. I'm still highly suspicious of white people, especially when I don't know them and they're being nice to me.
But when people are nice to me, I respond in kind, nevermind what I may be thinking on the inside. If I give away what I'm thinking, I blow my cover and reduce the likelihood of them slipping, as long as I don't let them suspect I suspect them, the more likely they reveal their motives.
I think the problem is not the PCs are exceptional, but the players behind them believe THEY are exceptional and better than the measured average across all cases. Thus, they can justify how their PCs are "just being normal. Kike me."
Sorry for too much IC in my post, didn't mean to be doing anything besides explaining how confusing it is to know what to do. I've edited it, hope that those with copies in their posts will do so as well.
:)
"Hug fest." Yeah, this has definitely NOT been my experience, for the past 2 years straight. See my earlier post. The game is doing fine, players are for the most part keeping up their RP in line with the docs.
There are ALWAYS going to be exceptions to the rule. And consequences for being found out. One of Arm's beauties.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/1900153_605952979492988_411060044_n.jpg)
My two sids.
It basically comes down to this. Unless you want to be killed quickly for being shitty to everyone in a game that has between 70 - 80 people on during peak times, you can't just be a raging asshole to everyone.
If you are a raging asshole to every breed, magicker, elf, or mutant you meet, every single time you see them, eventually, you are going to make someone important angry, either directly, or through someone they know.
A smart Zalanthan knows to have their fun beating up that lowly kid breed from the rinth nobody cares about, and to leave that breed wearing nice gear alone, for the most part. Why? That breed is obviously smart/savvy enough to either take care of themselves and be a potential danger, or possibly know people who could be a potential danger.
We don't treat mekillots and bahamets like family either, but we know not to spit in their faces.
It's about making the smart decisions for self preservation. For all you know, they are hating them on the inside the entire time they are smiling on the outside. Why? Because it behooves them to not go full retard on every gemmer/breed/elf they see, because you can only make so many enemies from so many places and stay alive.
Correct hate/mistrust roleplay does not equal making bad social and political decisions with fearless abandon on the self preservation front regularly.
I couldn't have said it better myself, Desertman.
+1
Yeah, watch how they talk about that breed, elf, gemmer, etc. they were so nice to after they finally bite it. Once the threat is no longer there, things change.
Quote from: Desertman on March 03, 2014, 11:38:02 AM
My two sids.
It basically comes down to this. Unless you want to be killed quickly for being shitty to everyone in a game that has between 70 - 80 people on during peak times, you can't just be a raging asshole to everyone.
If you are a raging asshole to every breed, magicker, elf, or mutant you meet, every single time you see them, eventually, you are going to make someone important angry, either directly, or through someone they know.
A smart Zalanthan knows to have their fun beating up that lowly kid breed from the rinth nobody cares about, and to leave that breed wearing nice gear alone, for the most part. Why? That breed is obviously smart/savvy enough to either take care of themselves and be a potential danger, or possibly know people who could be a potential danger.
We don't treat mekillots and bahamets like family either, but we know not to spit in their faces.
It's about making the smart decisions for self preservation. For all you know, they are hating them on the inside the entire time they are smiling on the outside. Why? Because it behooves them to not go full retard on every gemmer/breed/elf they see, because you can only make so many enemies from so many places and stay alive.
Correct hate/mistrust roleplay does not equal making bad social and political decisions with fearless abandon on the self preservation front regularly.
Kinda. This is only true because of a huge cooperative spirit coming about for the past several years. The majority of players can walk down a street lined with starving people and corpses and say its not their problem. But someone across the room makes an off-handed remark about how he'd like to kill this bitch, and everyone becomes a paragon of virtue and defense. Everyone clamps down on the content and squeezes it out.
Self preservation works both ways. Majority of people would mind their own business, because getting involved is a risk for no benefit. Who cares if that guy spit in that other guy's face? You barely know that guy, it's not your fight.
Quote from: Armaddict on March 03, 2014, 07:23:54 PM
Kinda. This is only true because of a huge cooperative spirit coming about for the past several years. The majority of players can walk down a street lined with starving people and corpses and say its not their problem. But someone across the room makes an off-handed remark about how he'd like to kill this bitch, and everyone becomes a paragon of virtue and defense. Everyone clamps down on the content and squeezes it out.
Self preservation works both ways. Majority of people would mind their own business, because getting involved is a risk for no benefit. Who cares if that guy spit in that other guy's face? You barely know that guy, it's not your fight.
I have not noticed the paragon effect of late. I think that too is actually beginning to vanish as well.
Quote from: Scarecrow on March 03, 2014, 09:09:29 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on March 03, 2014, 07:23:54 PM
Kinda. This is only true because of a huge cooperative spirit coming about for the past several years. The majority of players can walk down a street lined with starving people and corpses and say its not their problem. But someone across the room makes an off-handed remark about how he'd like to kill this bitch, and everyone becomes a paragon of virtue and defense. Everyone clamps down on the content and squeezes it out.
Self preservation works both ways. Majority of people would mind their own business, because getting involved is a risk for no benefit. Who cares if that guy spit in that other guy's face? You barely know that guy, it's not your fight.
I have not noticed the paragon effect of late. I think that too is actually beginning to vanish as well.
Yeah, I see it every once in a while but it at least seems to be in the minority now. I suspect it feels bigger than it is by the virtue of the fact that most of the people that are letting people get bullied are doing it quietly, while those few that stand up for people do it loudly. One of those populations is going to stick in your memory better.
It's taken a little under two years of playing, but someone did actually scowl at me and tell me to stop being so racist a little while ago.
I'm not sure whether to feel proud about my play or annoyed at the remark itself ::)
Quote from: Patuk on March 04, 2014, 02:53:50 AM
I'm not sure whether to feel proud about my play or annoyed at the remark itself ::)
A little of both, maybe?
Quote from: Patuk on March 04, 2014, 02:53:50 AM
It's taken a little under two years of playing, but someone did actually scowl at me and tell me to stop being so racist a little while ago.
I'm not sure whether to feel proud about my play or annoyed at the remark itself ::)
Call them a (insert race) loving no-good rapscallion.
Racist apartments?
Like a dwarf family runs an apartment building they'll only let humans and dwarves rent or something.
Elves running an elves only apartment, humans a human-only apartment.
I actually think the racist-bent to renting is pretty darned cool. Good idea, guys.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on March 04, 2014, 08:30:24 AM
I actually think the racist-bent to renting is pretty darned cool. Good idea, guys.
Me too!
I actually think you're out of your damned minds. Unless you actually mean have apartment buildings for all races.
Quote from: Fujikoma on March 04, 2014, 09:07:21 AM
I actually think you're out of your damned minds. Unless you actually mean have apartment buildings for all races.
Stop playing annoying breeds then Fukijoma! Only humans allowed!
I think it's a great, realistic, chaos brewing change!
Quote from: ShaLeah on March 04, 2014, 09:12:20 AM
Quote from: Fujikoma on March 04, 2014, 09:07:21 AM
I actually think you're out of your damned minds. Unless you actually mean have apartment buildings for all races.
Stop playing annoying breeds then Fukijoma! Only humans allowed!
I think it's a great, realistic, chaos brewing change!
I'll have you know I've only played one annoying breed. The rest were pretty damned chill, for breeds, anyway :P. What this will do is provide further incentive to -not- play races that are already poorly represented (Allanaki city elves, anyone?) among the PC population. As someone who has spent a good deal of time living in Luir's, yes, you can do without a place to store your things, and you can even get by without a private place for certain activities (seriously, if you want to walk in on such things, there are other options than this sort of sweeping change), but it just makes things a lot more annoying and more difficult to manage (sitting around heavilly encumbered, unable to do anything for real life days while your customer finds every excuse not to pick up the things they asked for).
Breeds, neckers, and stumps are garbage not worthy of Nenyuk's fine holdings. Go live in a hovel you twice-kicked and three-times-deserved ragamuffin'.
THe way I understand it is that some apartments will be racially biased, but that all races will have apartments that they can rent. It just might not be that one next to the Retreat, or the Storm, or ... in that swankish area.
I kind of like the idea of having bunches of elves packed into a few rooms. Mattresses on the floor, sheets up around the beds for a little privacy.
Of course, when that one pair of boots goes missing, it's gonna be chaos.
I'm curious to see how hidden breeds are affected by this code.
What I'm thinking is racism against renters--- they can bring in any visitors they want, although they might want to keep track of how often they do that.
I wouldn't complain about a humans-only building only allowing human renters or visitors though. I'd expect it of a Salaar employees only complex.
Abandoned apartment building that technically touches both halves of the rinth--- let the chaos begin.
Quote from: long live miley cyrus on March 04, 2014, 01:19:18 PM
What I'm thinking is racism against renters--- they can bring in any visitors they want, although they might want to keep track of how often they do that.
I wouldn't complain about a humans-only building only allowing human renters or visitors though. I'd expect it of a Salaar employees only complex.
Abandoned apartment building that technically touches both halves of the rinth--- let the chaos begin.
Except Salarr hires dwarves, half-giants and sometimes breeds, so making it human only for a Salarr emloyee building, um, that doesn't make sense.
Right, that.
I meant Kadius, or whoever only has humans-only these days.
Quote from: long live miley cyrus on March 04, 2014, 01:24:51 PM
Right, that.
I meant Kadius, or whoever only has humans-only these days.
Kadius hires dwarves (I think) and half-giants (pretty damned sure about this one).
And Kurac hires anything.
EDIT: Thinking noble houses can only hire humans. The Arm of the Dragon hires Half-giants and I know I've seen one dwarf in the past.
DAMMIT MY DREAMS
Staff can feel free to shut me down, but the dwarves that you saw in the AoD in the past were because of an extreme situation (the clan they were part of had been closed, and it was unfair to just depose them and leave them clanless).
Not all noble houses hired only humans. I believe House Tor, at that time, was known for having allowed dwarves (and possibly half giants) because it was a highly militaristic organization and the Tor Scorpions prized great strength and skill in combat with their hirees. Consequently, dwarves could at least hold one of those two requirements, and joining House Tor PROBABLY meant they were very dedicated to the ideals of the House.
Quote from: Saellyn on March 04, 2014, 04:23:53 PM
Staff can feel free to shut me down, but the dwarves that you saw in the AoD in the past were because of an extreme situation (the clan they were part of had been closed, and it was unfair to just depose them and leave them clanless).
Not all noble houses hired only humans. I believe House Tor, at that time, was known for having allowed dwarves (and possibly half giants) because it was a highly militaristic organization and the Tor Scorpions prized great strength and skill in combat with their hirees. Consequently, dwarves could at least hold one of those two requirements, and joining House Tor PROBABLY meant they were very dedicated to the ideals of the House.
I hate to keep posting a reply to every post posted, but I happen to know this was not the case for at least one dwarf. I am a relatively newer player, I was likely not around for the destruction of the dwarf clan you speak of. I will give it a bit of a break before posting again.
I love the added racism to apartments, very cool. It would be neat to see them discriminate against anyone with a gem on as well. Though I also wish that there was a way to hide your gem (wearing something like a scarf on neck if the gem was 'about') more than just virtually, which people tend to ignore.
Tor Scorpions prized great strength and skill in combat with their hirees
I believe that it would be very rare for Tor to view anyone not Academy-trained to be anything more than an expendable and undisciplined mercenary, let alone believe they had great skill.
Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on March 04, 2014, 05:42:00 PM
I love the added racism to apartments, very cool. It would be neat to see them discriminate against anyone with a gem on as well. .
Agreed. Particularly the fancier apartments.
Quote from: The Lonely Hunter link=topic=47035.msg807746#msg807746 date=1393972920
i]Tor Scorpions prized great strength and skill in combat with their hirees[/i]
I believe that it would be very rare for Tor to view anyone not Academy-trained to be anything more than an expendable and undisciplined mercenary, let alone believe they had great skill.
With the possible exception of the AoD which they generally serve alongside. Maybe. Or maybe they just say that, and secretly think they're the meatshields of the Highlord while Tor does the actual fighting.
Quote from: BleakOne on March 04, 2014, 05:50:02 PM
... they just say that, and secretly think they're the meatshields of the Highlord while Tor does the actual fighting.
We did tend to think that, quietly.
Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on March 04, 2014, 05:42:00 PM
I love the added racism to apartments, very cool. It would be neat to see them discriminate against anyone with a gem on as well. Though I also wish that there was a way to hide your gem (wearing something like a scarf on neck if the gem was 'about') more than just virtually, which people tend to ignore.
Tor Scorpions prized great strength and skill in combat with their hirees
I believe that it would be very rare for Tor to view anyone not Academy-trained to be anything more than an expendable and undisciplined mercenary, let alone believe they had great skill.
... So you agreed with what I said?
Thanks.
But yeah, House Tor is the equivalent Southern-wise to Shaolin Monks while the AoD were considered brown-belts. The Tor Scorpions were the utter baddest of the bad.
I've always wanted to see merchants be more racist. Delves should be charging round ears out the ass at the Outpost in the Pah.
Non humans should have to pay more than a human at most human city-based merchants.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on March 04, 2014, 10:18:01 PM
I've always wanted to see merchants be more racist. Delves should be charging round ears out the ass at the Outpost in the Pah.
Non humans should have to pay more than a human at most human city-based merchants.
To be honest, I'd like to see those as modifiers to an all out npc relations program that is totally a ton of work and the staff should do it with their volunteer time JUST BECAUSE I SAID SO. And it should be in tomorrow. But it'd be so cooooool.
Quote from: Armaddict on March 05, 2014, 12:18:00 AM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on March 04, 2014, 10:18:01 PM
I've always wanted to see merchants be more racist. Delves should be charging round ears out the ass at the Outpost in the Pah.
Non humans should have to pay more than a human at most human city-based merchants.
To be honest, I'd like to see those as modifiers to an all out npc relations program that is totally a ton of work and the staff should do it with their volunteer time JUST BECAUSE I SAID SO. And it should be in tomorrow. But it'd be so cooooool.
PC Merchants can definitely do something about that, but GENERALLY speaking, nobody wants "crafted" items. Everyone wants things they know/think are codedly more powerful because it comes from a GMH or Sponsored Role. I think it would be great if there were a number of things a PC Merchant could craft that were in at least moderate demand, so they COULD say "Well, the price is forty" to necks, but its only twenty to roundears.
Damn GMH merchants getting ALL dem perkz.
Quote from: Riev on March 07, 2014, 12:06:25 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on March 05, 2014, 12:18:00 AM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on March 04, 2014, 10:18:01 PM
I've always wanted to see merchants be more racist. Delves should be charging round ears out the ass at the Outpost in the Pah.
Non humans should have to pay more than a human at most human city-based merchants.
To be honest, I'd like to see those as modifiers to an all out npc relations program that is totally a ton of work and the staff should do it with their volunteer time JUST BECAUSE I SAID SO. And it should be in tomorrow. But it'd be so cooooool.
I think it would be great if there were a number of things a PC Merchant could craft that were in at least moderate demand, so they COULD say "Well, the price is forty" to necks, but its only twenty to roundears.
Tents and arrows tend to be in demand, and the latter is craftable by starting merchants. Also if you camp the starting locations you can sell armor and weapons pretty easily. If you play an elven merchant and do this you'll have plenty of opportunities to be racist.
Quote from: Riev on March 07, 2014, 12:06:25 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on March 05, 2014, 12:18:00 AM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on March 04, 2014, 10:18:01 PM
I've always wanted to see merchants be more racist. Delves should be charging round ears out the ass at the Outpost in the Pah.
Non humans should have to pay more than a human at most human city-based merchants.
To be honest, I'd like to see those as modifiers to an all out npc relations program that is totally a ton of work and the staff should do it with their volunteer time JUST BECAUSE I SAID SO. And it should be in tomorrow. But it'd be so cooooool.
PC Merchants can definitely do something about that, but GENERALLY speaking, nobody wants "crafted" items. Everyone wants things they know/think are codedly more powerful because it comes from a GMH or Sponsored Role. I think it would be great if there were a number of things a PC Merchant could craft that were in at least moderate demand, so they COULD say "Well, the price is forty" to necks, but its only twenty to roundears.
Damn GMH merchants getting ALL dem perkz.
PC Merchants, without House backing, have access to some decent recipes. Some of them are in demand.
Did not read all of this, but somethign definitely needs to be said about using real world language in the in game world, it is apparently something I was doing for a few years now and just recently got a bad account note for. So watch out using the word "whore" and I forget the others mentioned in my account notes but, they were sexist words according to staff and they are frowned upon if used too much. I am not getting what I am trying to say here across too well -.-.
•Uses a lot of sexist RL words to describe women--everyone's a whore, bitch, slut, etc.
okay. so, whore isn't an insult, bitch doesn't really have the same context for all places (the only common canines are gortoks, not everybody knows what they look like etc because they only roam in specific regions, they don't have a strong cultural connection to being a "bad woman" like in western culture.) If you use the word bitch, I think you'd be describing a female gortok, likely a mother, probably in charge of their own little pack... nothing like the modern use. And slut is a difficult one to apply to allanak, because "slutty" behavior isn't exactly bad in allanak either unless in certain contexts.
Try: Breedfucker, breedlover, elf-fucker, etc. I mean, take something that exists in zalanthas and use it appropriately, get creative, try a little harder and it's all good. There's no language filter, it's more of a context thing.
sorry for a poorly worded post, I just had a bunch of coffee.
Wha? I can still use whore as the occupation right? Every leader PC I have ever worked for refers to sex workers as whores.
That word is still an apt description of a particular profession, yes. It could be used as an insult towards a highborn or GMH family member but in a similar way that you could use "Grebber" or "Stone Hauler" as insults to those who are supposed to be above menial tasks.
I think bitch is still an acceptable insult since gortoks are fairly widely known to be mangy, foul-tempered and stinky. It would probably be better to use the word 'tok though, just to keep OOC out of your IC.
I've always used it as a ungendered insult via the reasoning that anyone can be a whore, but not everyone can be an effective fighter/crafter/juggler etc.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on March 08, 2014, 08:08:30 PM
I've always used it as a ungendered insult via the reasoning that anyone can be a whore, but not everyone can be an effective fighter/crafter/juggler etc.
If anyone can be a whore, why do so many end up aides? All levels of fighters/crafters/jugglers/whores/thieves. Smarten up.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on March 08, 2014, 08:08:30 PM
I've always used it as a ungendered insult via the reasoning that anyone can be a whore, but not everyone can be an effective fighter/crafter/juggler etc.
Anyone can be a Byn runner.
Most of them aren't very effective, except at feeding spiders.
Quote from: ShaLeah on March 08, 2014, 08:26:18 PM
If anyone can be a whore, why do so many end up aides? All levels of fighters/crafters/jugglers/whores/thieves. Smarten up.
PC whores, being played by PCs, are likely more skilled, attractive, and smarter than the vNPCs that make up most of the population. It's an entry level job that requires no inherent skills in and of itself.
Quote from: FreeRangeVestric on March 08, 2014, 08:31:42 PM
Anyone can be a Byn runner.
Most of them aren't very effective, except at feeding spiders.
Whores don't need to fork over three hundred coins for a whoring license. Maybe. It's never very clear where the line between "tokenless whore" and "betokened courtesan" is to be drawn.
I imagine the survival rate isn't much better for whores over runners, though.
I'm not sure what you all are going on about...
To perhaps clarify what we're talking about: Calling all women whores/sluts is a hangover from real-life sexism. It doesn't really make sense given men are just as likely to be whores or slutty in Zalanthas.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on March 08, 2014, 09:00:34 PM
I'm not sure what you all are going on about...
To perhaps clarify what we're talking about: Calling all women whores/sluts is a hangover from real-life sexism. It doesn't really make sense given men are just as likely to be whores or slutty in Zalanthas.
Agreed, which is why it's only appropriate if you throw it at everyone.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on March 08, 2014, 08:37:26 PM
Quote from: ShaLeah on March 08, 2014, 08:26:18 PM
If anyone can be a whore, why do so many end up aides? All levels of fighters/crafters/jugglers/whores/thieves. Smarten up.
PC whores, being played by PCs, are likely more skilled, attractive, and smarter than the vNPCs that make up most of the population. It's an entry level job that requires no inherent skills in and of itself.
Quote from: FreeRangeVestric on March 08, 2014, 08:31:42 PM
Anyone can be a Byn runner.
Most of them aren't very effective, except at feeding spiders.
Whores don't need to fork over three hundred coins for a whoring license. Maybe. It's never very clear where the line between "tokenless whore" and "betokened courtesan" is to be drawn.
I imagine the survival rate isn't much better for whores over runners, though.
No, whores need a token PLUS protection. Much more than the runner entry. Not tokened or protected? There's a reason to don't hear about those. Heh.
I was just trying to give a comment so new people would realise this apparantly is a bad thing to do if your being 'sexist'. Personally my PC was an asshole who hated everyone.