Thanks so much to everyone that contributed to discussion on the shadow artist system! We received a lot of feedback and a lot of interest. After reviewing player feedback and after making adjustments and expansions to the beta documentation, we're ready to put this system into place. These newly reformed documents are now live.
The public documentation for shadow artists is located here:
General documentation (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Shadow%20Artists)
Shadow Artist FAQ (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Shadow%20Artist%20FAQ)
Shadow Agent FAQ (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Shadow%20Agent%20FAQ)
The explanation for the changes is on the Chronology (http://www.armageddon.org/world/chronology.php) page (which has another thing there too that might be of interest).
In a nutshell, here are the major changes and additions from the last time this was brought to the fore in the past thread (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46260.0.html) on this issue:
--wording changes to make some stuff a bit more clear that was already the case
--the templar/artist "ordering" process is now more of a "negotiating" process, with soft requirements rather than hard requirements. Artists can beg off for reasons which are defined in their "FAQ" but that may face consequences
--defined the basics for rank progression; while it is mostly in the hands of the templar PCs, there are some minimum requirements for time
--gave a few more perks to master artists, namely the ability to NOT have the public rank of a master artist (allowing them to choose to be sneaky master artists if they wanted to be, and hide their rank from their employers). They also have more of an ability to negotiate for pay as well as to beg off from contracts that might jeopardize their position in whatever organization they are in. (Not that they won't act against their employers, they just might not want to take a job that isn't suitably lucrative enough to be worth it.)
--fleshed out the history of shadow artists a little bit
--fleshed out the illegal part of crime a little bit
If you're playing a current shadow artist, you may re-register or even retire from service at no penalty.
A couple of player artists have contributed artwork that is directly related to the work we did here. Personal thanks from staff go out to:
James de Monet
Potaje
I've linked their submissions for this part of the Tuluki Art project here (https://imgur.com/a/optMF), with their permission.
Do we have documentation on social standing yet? Since all contracts possible (things ranging from the fairly harmless to full out assassination) require that someone be of equal or lesser status, documentation on that would be helpful.
If you can find me a help file on the current website that uses a table, I can set up the caste table on this site.
Quote from: Nyr on November 06, 2013, 09:18:23 PM
If you can find me a help file on the current website that uses a table, I can set up the caste table on this site.
Would something like this (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Age) work? It's all links for some reason (and the links don't work), but it is a table.
Semi-related, addkeyword (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Addkeyword) has a typo at the top and then a similar looking table that has an error:
use the request tool: http://www.armageddon.org/request">http://www.armageddon.org/request
From the FAQ:
QuoteHow do contracts work, anyway?
For the artist, contracts are a simple process. The templarate will contact you when they have a job that fits your particular set of skills. You must accept the contract; this part of the job is not voluntary. You chose to become a shadow artist, and you do not get to discriminate between contracts. You will be paid half of the price of the contract up front, the other half upon completion. You might privately wonder who hired you, but that is of no consequence. You don't talk about your contracts to anyone, barring the exception below. You have a job to do. Hop to it!
If you work for a patron, you might be given a contract by your patron (through the templarate). Contracts provided by your patron may be discussed with the patron. This is considered a necessary part of training up the city-state's artists. However, contracts for other parties (which remain unknown to you) may not be discussed with anyone, including your patron.
Bolded word is typo'd
Please ignore my previous post I must have misread something. Unfortunately the Edit function doesn't work for me or I would edit it.
And I'm back for comments on the docs themselves. Before we get to that, I want to say that I'm pretty pleased with how they're looking.
Thank you for incorporating so much of what you got from player feedback! I love that you can turn down a contract if absolutely needed, but that it also carries potential punishments. I think it solves concerns about being given tasks beyond one's ability, and also allows for having that one special someone that you'd be unwilling to act against. Sure, there are consequences, potentially, but that also makes sense.
Most of the following has to do with clarification on situations, and for one point, I think that the docs should be slightly altered for clarity.
Quote from: Shadow Agent FAQSomeone came to me and wants me to put in a contract against someone because of my social status in relation to the target...what do I do?
How much is it worth to you? Figure that out first, and use it to your advantage. Your social ranking/caste has its privileges, and this is one of them! Assuming you take on this person in a partisan-style arrangement, you must disclose the details of the arrangement to the templarate when you request the contract.
So let's say that Idie Hunter Amos wants to take out a contract against Merchant House Employee Malik. Amos goes to Lyksae Sergeant Talia, who has more social standing.
- If Talia wants to go ahead and set up Amos' contract with the Faithful, does Amos have to be her partisan, or is that optional?
- What if Talia secretly likes Malik, and so she doesn't want to have him killed. Is it illegal for her to tell him that Amos wants a contract on him?
- Talia doesn't take Amos on as a partisan, because she wants Chosen Lady Lyksae to get benefits directly. Talia sets up the contract, but Amos is the Chosen Lady's partisan as a result, not hers. Do details still have to be disclosed?
Quote from: Shadow Artist DocsThe Basics:
- In general, the contracting agent never knows which shadow artist is assigned to their particular contract, and they should never seek to discover this. The shadow artist never knows who requested the contract, and they should never seek to discover this.
- The exception to this is the case of a patron with a partisan shadow artist. Such a patron may send contracts through the templarate designated to their artist, and discuss details of the contract with them in order to promote their training process.
I know in the last thread, the discussion came up about just temporarily having someone as a partisan for the length of the job. Was that okay, or frowned upon?
Example: Indie Merchant Amos hates Indie Hunter Malik. He also knows that Talia is a super shadow artist. He wants to have her as a "partisan" so he can speak to her about the job, but he doesn't want the arrangement to last longer then that.
And what about something like...
Example: Amos wants to mess with Malik. But he thinks that shadow artist Talia can't do it alone, so he wants to have Kellik who isn't a shadow artist help lure Malik somewhere. Kellik would have to know about the crime, however. Is that possible, or no?
Quote from: Shadow Artist FAQHow do contracts work, anyway?
For the artist, contracts are a simple process. The templarate will contact you when they have a job that fits your particular set of skills. You must accept the contract; this part of the job is not voluntary. You chose to become a shadow artist, and you do not get to discriminate between contracts. You will be paid half of the price of the contract up front, the other half upon completion. You might privately wonder who hired you, but that is of no consequence. You don't talk about your contracts to anyone, barring the exception below. You have a job to do. Hop to it!
This seems to totally contradict the "Can I turn down a contract?" portion. You may want to revise the bolded portion for clarity. Something like "it is expected that you will accept contracts. Part of being a shadow artist is doing all sorts of work that comes your way". That way the portions won't seem to contradict one another.
I think Partisanship is restricted to the Surif houses, to be honest.
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 07, 2013, 03:35:40 AM
I think Partisanship is restricted to the Surif houses, to be honest.
It's not, actually! From the previous shadow artist thread:
Quote from: Nyr on September 27, 2013, 04:10:11 PM
Quote from: Taven on September 27, 2013, 04:05:03 PMThis may seem like a dumb question, but it is tangentally related to the topic at hand.
Things are very "patron" based. The docs suggest that only Chosen or Faithful can be patrons, but I'm pretty sure in the past Family/Reps of the GMH Houses could also take partisans. Is that no longer true?
Technically anyone can be a patron or partisan to anyone else:
QuotePatronage is a formal agreement between two parties for the benefit of both. Patronage may be either long-term or short-term. This can take many different forms. The following examples are not meant to limit what can be done but highlight the possibilities.
The noble was used because it's the most common one; there are plenty of other examples of what can be done though.
QuoteAlso, are there any guidelines for patrons (for shadow artists, mainly)? For example, if I really like Amos but he isn't my patron now, can I short-term offer him patronage, for the length of a single job? That way I know who can be hired, and I can talk to him about it. Oooor, is there a minimum time limit required for being a patron to a specific shadow artist?
Hmm. No, there are not. Should there be? That sounds like it's a hole you just found. "I can't pick who I want for a job...but I can engage in a short term patronage relationship with this guy who I know is awesome...so I'll use him for one job...and get around that rule, because he's my guy!" You guys are sneaky.
... That is an unbelievable loophole in the system that is fucking genius. Unless Staff closes that loophole off, that's pretty much the epitome of slick and dashingly clever in Tuluk.
Quote from: Taven on November 06, 2013, 09:39:50 PM
Quote from: Nyr on November 06, 2013, 09:18:23 PM
If you can find me a help file on the current website that uses a table, I can set up the caste table on this site.
Would something like this (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Age) work? It's all links for some reason (and the links don't work), but it is a table.
Semi-related, addkeyword (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Addkeyword) has a typo at the top and then a similar looking table that has an error:
use the request tool: http://www.armageddon.org/request">http://www.armageddon.org/request
I fixed the error on the addkeywords page. The first page...meh. I will talk to Morg and see what options we have. There's definitely another page out there that has better looking tables...
Quote from: Taven on November 07, 2013, 02:38:43 AM
Quote from: Shadow Agent FAQSomeone came to me and wants me to put in a contract against someone because of my social status in relation to the target...what do I do?
How much is it worth to you? Figure that out first, and use it to your advantage. Your social ranking/caste has its privileges, and this is one of them! Assuming you take on this person in a partisan-style arrangement, you must disclose the details of the arrangement to the templarate when you request the contract.
So let's say that Idie Hunter Amos wants to take out a contract against Merchant House Employee Malik. Amos goes to Lyksae Sergeant Talia, who has more social standing.
- If Talia wants to go ahead and set up Amos' contract with the Faithful, does Amos have to be her partisan, or is that optional?
From the partisan docs:
QuotePatronage is a formal agreement between two parties for the benefit of both. Patronage may be either long-term or short-term.
and
QuoteThe possibilities are virtually endless. Every patronage relationship needs to be agreed to by both parties and stated explicitly in the game during discussions.
Yes, Amos has to be a partisan of Talia. This can be a short-term, one-time thing, a formal agreement between the two for the benefit of both (Talia gets something out of it, Amos gets something out of it).
Quote- What if Talia secretly likes Malik, and so she doesn't want to have him killed. Is it illegal for her to tell him that Amos wants a contract on him?
I don't see why it would be. Going to a higher-status patron to get work done means risk.
Quote
- Talia doesn't take Amos on as a partisan, because she wants Chosen Lady Lyksae to get benefits directly. Talia sets up the contract, but Amos is the Chosen Lady's partisan as a result, not hers. Do details still have to be disclosed?
...
what? Talia doesn't take Amos on as a partisan because she wants Chosen Lady Lyksae...who's Chosen Lady Lyksae? What are we talking about here? This wasn't in your scenario.
QuoteQuote from: Shadow Artist DocsThe Basics:
- In general, the contracting agent never knows which shadow artist is assigned to their particular contract, and they should never seek to discover this. The shadow artist never knows who requested the contract, and they should never seek to discover this.
- The exception to this is the case of a patron with a partisan shadow artist. Such a patron may send contracts through the templarate designated to their artist, and discuss details of the contract with them in order to promote their training process.
I know in the last thread, the discussion came up about just temporarily having someone as a partisan for the length of the job. Was that okay, or frowned upon?
Example: Indie Merchant Amos hates Indie Hunter Malik. He also knows that Talia is a super shadow artist. He wants to have her as a "partisan" so he can speak to her about the job, but he doesn't want the arrangement to last longer then that.
I'm wondering how Indie Merchant Amos has the 'sid to hire a master shadow artist to "mess with" an indie hunter. This is a pretty extreme hypothetical scenario. Spending potentially thousands (or enormous favors) in a partisan agreement just so Amos knows he is hiring the very best in order to to kill an indie hunter...sure. If Amos is dumb enough to do that, Talia will take his money.
Quote
And what about something like...
Example: Amos wants to mess with Malik. But he thinks that shadow artist Talia can't do it alone, so he wants to have Kellik who isn't a shadow artist help lure Malik somewhere. Kellik would have to know about the crime, however. Is that possible, or no?
Sure, that's possible. Illegal? Maybe. Good luck with that. What's more important here is that it's not so smart to go to that extreme just to "mess with" an indie hunter. It's also not so smart to engage a partisan agreement with an already admittedly master shadow artist and then think, "gee, this person I'm wasting all of these resources on is just not going to be able to do this on her own."
Quote
Quote from: Shadow Artist FAQHow do contracts work, anyway?
For the artist, contracts are a simple process. The templarate will contact you when they have a job that fits your particular set of skills. You must accept the contract; this part of the job is not voluntary. You chose to become a shadow artist, and you do not get to discriminate between contracts. You will be paid half of the price of the contract up front, the other half upon completion. You might privately wonder who hired you, but that is of no consequence. You don't talk about your contracts to anyone, barring the exception below. You have a job to do. Hop to it!
This seems to totally contradict the "Can I turn down a contract?" portion. You may want to revise the bolded portion for clarity. Something like "it is expected that you will accept contracts. Part of being a shadow artist is doing all sorts of work that comes your way". That way the portions won't seem to contradict one another.
Yeah, I missed that one in the update, it is fixed now.
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 07, 2013, 03:35:40 AM
I think Partisanship is restricted to the Surif houses, to be honest.
It never has been.
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 07, 2013, 05:31:01 AM
... That is an unbelievable loophole in the system that is fucking genius. Unless Staff closes that loophole off, that's pretty much the epitome of slick and dashingly clever in Tuluk.
Well, I guess we'll see what people do with it.
I like the new changes.
One thing I'm not sure is resolved by them though is timeliness. It still seems possible for an artist to accept a contract on someone they like, blocking other attempts by having the contract active, but not making any attempts to fulfill it. Conversely there's the case where someone is asked to perform a contract on what seems like a reasonable target, but they then very gradually discover they have no playing time overlap - this could take weeks or months to be sure of. It seems to me that having the target still walking round without the contract taking effect many weeks later would be galling and frustrating to the person who paid up front for the contract in the first place.
Quote from: Quirk on November 07, 2013, 09:06:43 AM
One thing I'm not sure is resolved by them though is timeliness. It still seems possible for an artist to accept a contract on someone they like, blocking other attempts by having the contract active, but not making any attempts to fulfill it.
There's nothing prohibiting multiple people from wanting to kill someone. There's nothing prohibiting the templarate from dealing with an artist that's doing something like that, either.
Quote
Conversely there's the case where someone is asked to perform a contract on what seems like a reasonable target, but they then very gradually discover they have no playing time overlap - this could take weeks or months to be sure of. It seems to me that having the target still walking round without the contract taking effect many weeks later would be galling and frustrating to the person who paid up front for the contract in the first place.
Covered in the artist FAQ.
QuoteOOC NOTE: If there's some OOC reason you cannot pursue a contract, feel free to make this known to staff. If you have differing playtimes or the "target" seems to have disappeared as far as you can tell, let staff know. This can be communicated to the PCs in the templarate. This sort of thing does not fall into the category of frivolous declination.
As I read it, if a Templar tells a Shadow Artist below the Master rank to complete a contract, they have no choice but to accept that contract, regardless of the nature of the contract/danger to them personally, or they will face being disappeared. It appears other punishments/consequences are also on the table, but being disappeared is an actual possibility for refusal of a contract.
I just want to make sure I am reading that correctly.
Quote from: Desertman on November 07, 2013, 09:49:16 AM
As I read it, if a Templar tells a Shadow Artist below the Master rank to complete a contract, they have no choice but to accept that contract, regardless of the nature of the contract/danger to them personally, or they will face being disappeared. It appears other punishments/consequences are also on the table, but being disappeared is an actual possibility for refusal of a contract.
I just want to make sure I am reading that correctly.
No, you are not reading that correctly, or you're reading something that isn't supposed to be there at all. The exact opposite, in fact, is in the shadow artist FAQ:
QuoteCan I turn down a contract?
In a word? Yes. You CAN turn down a contract. However, you should know going into this that shadow artists are expected to DO work, not turn it down. Declining a contract must be done carefully. It's one thing if you're quite sure you cannot handle the difficulty of the contract--after all, as omniscient as the templarate seems to be, they may have overestimated your abilities and interest in risky situations! Declining for other reasons has its own risks. Reasons that make sense to the templarate will more than likely be accepted in exchange for future work. Reasons that are frivolous may be met with punishment, up to and including revocation of your ability to be a shadow artist. Greater capacity for exceptions exists for the masters of the art of shadows, for they are given more latitude to protect their positions.
QuoteFrom Shartist Docs:
• Failure to complete a contract appropriately may result in punishment ranging from simple fines to revocation of registration to outright disappearance.
I did in fact read this incorrectly. You can't be killed for turning down a contract, only for extreme failure in completing a contract you have already accepted. Sorry about that.
It appears the one thing I hated about the first round of documentation was fixed.
I love it.
I am Durzo Blint.
Yep, if you screw up badly you can get killed for it.
I'm also working on an ASCII Caste Chart. This is really taking me back...
I am excited to see if/how/when people really take advantage of all this.
To ACTUALLY see "organized, legal crime" in the city would be nice, from "legal muggings" to defacement of property.... It sure would be nice to trust in the Sun King to keep everyone safe, and trust in NOBODY ELSE BECAUSE THEY DON'T LIKE THAT YOU WALK FASTER AND HIRE SOMEONE TO BREAK YOUR LEGS.
Tuluki Chosen should immediately have their stipends doubled across the board.
With the OOC requirement that they must spend at least 50% of their total income on contracts every year. As their patriotic duty.
Seeker
Quote from: Nyr on November 07, 2013, 09:59:12 AM
Yep, if you screw up badly you can get killed for it.
I'm also working on an ASCII Caste Chart. This is really taking me back...
Well, now I just need to find a way to get this onto the website. However, here it is, copied with very minor changes.
| -------------------------------- |
| Faithful Caste |
| -------------------------------- |
| Exalted | Templar | --------------- | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| ---------------- | ------------- | Chosen Caste | Common Caste |
| The Sun King | - | --------------- | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| High Precentor | - | - | Artisan | Merchant | Legions | Commoner |
| Inquisitors | - | - | --------------------- | ------------------------ | ----------- | ----------------------------- |
| Precentors | - | - | - | - | - | - | ------------------------------------ |
| ---------------- | Illuminated | Head of House | - | - | - | - | Slave Caste |
| High Templar | Senior Family | - | Head of House | - | - | ------------------------------------ |
| Templar | Junior Family | - | - | General | - | - |
| ------------- | --------------- | Circle Leader | - | Colonel | - | - |
| Master Bard | - | Captain | - | - |
| Master Shadow Artist | Senior Merchant | Lieutenant | Senior noble/templar employee | - |
| Bard / Journeyman SA | Merchant/Byn LT | Sergeant | Middle noble/templar employee | Ranked Legion/Artisan/Lyksaen slaves |
| Apprentice SA | Jr. Merchant / Byn Sarge | Corporal | Seeker / Jr. employee | Ranked House slaves; Artisan slaves |
| ----------------------| Entry-level employees | Private | Apprentice of Poets' Circle | Personal noble/templar slaves |
| ------------------------ | Recruit | Independent Commoner | Skilled slave |
| ----------- | ----------------------------- | Unskilled slave |
|--------------------------------------|
Deleted. It would derail and wasn't really related.
Since this is dependent on caste, when previously it wasn't necessarily dependent, I'm wondering - where do Allanak- or Luirs-born GMH family and non-family members fit into this, with regards to "contracts" for shadow artists?
For the sake of clarity:
Junior Agent Ginger-da Kurac, born and raised in Luir's, newly assigned to work in Tuluk.
Overseer Pretty-boy Kadius, born and raised in Allanak, presently on a rotation to work out of Tuluk.
Senior Merchant Jimbob of Salarr - born and raised in Red Storm, not a family member, hired into Salarr and raised through promotions to Senior Merchant, presently assigned to Tuluk.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 07, 2013, 02:29:19 PM
Since this is dependent on caste, when previously it wasn't necessarily dependent, I'm wondering - where do Allanak- or Luirs-born GMH family and non-family members fit into this, with regards to "contracts" for shadow artists?
For the sake of clarity:
Junior Agent Ginger-da Kurac, born and raised in Luir's, newly assigned to work in Tuluk.
Overseer Pretty-boy Kadius, born and raised in Allanak, presently on a rotation to work out of Tuluk.
Senior Merchant Jimbob of Salarr - born and raised in Red Storm, not a family member, hired into Salarr and raised through promotions to Senior Merchant, presently assigned to Tuluk.
It was covered on the old page with this snippet:
QuoteThose Great Merchant House employees who are able to claim citizenship may have a slightly higher social status then those who cannot - especially in legal matters. However, since the social power of the Great Merchant House is largely a function of their tremendous wealth and not any perceived quality of character, the differences are minor. This caste also includes the upper echelons of proven, independent commoner organizations, such as the T'zai Byn.
As someone who was a large contributor to making the old Shadow Artist thread go 17 pages, I want to say, thanks staff! I dig the improvements, especially the fact that there seems to be more nuance and grey areas in the system now. Big kudos to Nyr in particular.
You can now see everything pertinent from the old Caste chart on our website.
Tuluki Caste Structure (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20Caste%20Structure) -- just a visual resource
Tuluki Social Hierarchy (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20Social%20Hierarchy) -- meant to be used in combination with Caste Structure page
Tuluki Caste Tattoos (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20Caste%20Tattoos) -- resource for tattoos and their significance in Tuluk
Agree with Jherlen. I wasn't very optimistic at first because of the lack of "grey areas" in the restrictions. But now that there's just a smidge of wiggle-room in the wording, I think this could be a pretty interesting shift in the politics of Tuluk. Looking forward to seeing how this plays out!
I am MUY excited. Squeaaal.
I'm excited, too. Now Tuluki players just have to start scraping up some deliciously fun conflict and start putting those artists to work. GO GO GO!
Quote from: Ourla on November 07, 2013, 03:41:48 PM
I'm excited, too. Now Tuluki players just have to start scraping up some deliciously fun conflict and start putting those artists to work. GO GO GO!
Yep. This is totally the ultimate in Tuluki subtlety at work.
Dem Tulukis are gettin' grittier.
I sense a whole bunch of new "gardener" and "baker" PCs popping up in Tuluk in the next few days.
Quote from: Malken on November 07, 2013, 04:08:41 PM
I sense a whole bunch of new "gardener" and "baker" PCs popping up in Tuluk in the next few days.
I'd be a hell of a lot more afraid of the mass of "lumberjack" PCs.
Also, there's a lot missing from the caste. Entry level employees, sure, but I remember the old chart (I think?) included the various other ranks in the Houses, like the cadets, the first hunters, the troopers, things like that.
Sorry, hadn't caught up with this thread earlier.
Quote from: Nyr on November 07, 2013, 08:24:43 AMI fixed the error on the addkeywords page. The first page...meh. I will talk to Morg and see what options we have. There's definitely another page out there that has better looking tables...
Try this (http://www.ouroborosmedia.com/arm/Arm_Tables.html), Nyr. If it works for you, I've commented the source code so you can copy/paste the table itself into your site, or I can email it to you separately. It should still work if you're using a WYSIWYG editor and not editing the page itself, just switch to source editing and dump the table in as the content.
You had also omitted Artisans from the actual Artisan Caste. I added them back in case it was by accident, but you can remove them if that was intentional (though I hope it wasn't).
I can also send you a fix for the age table, if you like.
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 07, 2013, 04:42:36 PMAlso, there's a lot missing from the caste. Entry level employees, sure, but I remember the old chart (I think?) included the various other ranks in the Houses, like the cadets, the first hunters, the troopers, things like that.
No, it didn't. You can see the old chart here (http://old.armageddon.org/rp/tuluk_castes.html), and you'll note it's mostly identical.
I will check it out later. It is not exactly a WYSIWYG editor though.
I removed artisans on purpose. There is no actual structural or social or caste backing for such a description as far as I can tell.
Quote from: Nyr on November 07, 2013, 05:54:01 PMI will check it out later. It is not exactly a WYSIWYG editor though.
Feel free to PM or email me any issues you have adding it in, if you want to add it of course, and I'll help as I can.
Quote from: Nyr on November 07, 2013, 05:54:01 PMI removed artisans on purpose. There is no actual structural or social or caste backing for such a description as far as I can tell.
There's no formal structure, such as tattoos or clear paths of progress, but socially speaking recognized artisans have always had an elevated position. It's called the Artisan caste for a reason. As per the helpfile:
"The artisan caste consists of the elite of the other two common castes. Included in the artisan caste are
master crafters, ranked Circle bards of Bard rank or above, extremely accomplished assassins and thieves with noble or templar partisanship
and accomplished artisans of other disciplines that can show sufficient support."
Emphasis mine. If staff wants to flesh that out further and add some formal structure down the road, that'd be awesome. But I think elevated artisans should still be represented on the chart, even if a formal structure doesn't exist, and any PCs aspiring to such status can pursue it IG accordingly with staff's help. Just as they've always been able to do.
Just my two cents though.
Quote from: Malken on November 07, 2013, 04:08:41 PM
I sense a whole bunch of new "gardener" and "baker" PCs popping up in Tuluk in the next few days.
I hope so! I could see many more possibilities...
Florist, chef, maid (who for some reason doesn't seem to ever be cleaning much, at least not in the traditional sense), valet, interpreter, wet nurse, etc all suddenly seem very playable occupation titles.
I've done the "gardener" bit. That character was never hired to kill anyone but did manage to get a notable friend killed in a freak flashpowder accident/mixup. He tried to set up an organized crime racket with his patron but it never took off and he eventually got a "real job" to liven things up.
IIRC one's status as registered thief and/or assassin was previously considered to be confidential. With the new changes will one's staus as a shadow artist be public knowledge or will this still be considered confidential information?
For the site stuff...thank you for the offer of help, but i think Morg can get it! :)
As for the artisan rank...since it is partially known as a category solely attainable by spamcrafting, that should be removed from that help file. If you are an accomplished artist of some Other discipline and can show significant support, then your supporter (patron or employer organization) should assign you an appropriate role in the rank structure.
There are other things that will change with this revision of the caste structure as well, and maybe artisan is not a good name for shadow artists and bards....but it works for a quick and dirty update to a chart that has not seen work in 4 years.
Quote from: Nyr on November 07, 2013, 06:31:29 PMAs for the artisan rank...since it is partially known as a category solely attainable by spamcrafting, that should be removed from that help file.
Um... Those social ranks have nothing to do with skill ranks, Nyr. Being a Master Tailor in your skill lists doesn't make you a Master Artisan, any more than Master Backstab makes you a Master Shadow Artist, or Master Instrument Making makes you a Master Bard.
Such positions revolve around social influence, recognition, and achievements. A Master Artisan would be someone that has shown exceptional dedication and mastery over their art, well-past what any skilled crafter might. They would have produced for example public art installations, received the favor of high-ranking patrons, and overall proven themselves not just skilled, but patriotic assets to Tuluki Society. They would potentially have apprentices of their own, and so forth.
Quote from: Nyr on November 07, 2013, 06:31:29 PMIf you are an accomplished artist of some Other discipline and can show significant support, then your supporter (patron or employer organization) should assign you an appropriate role in the rank structure.
I assume you mean in that patron's or organization's rank structure. That, however, is an internal rank. The point isn't what the organization views you as, but what Society view you as. A Tuluki Master Artisan might be called a "Silver Chisel" by a Tenneshi Patron or "Head Stonecarver" by a Winrothol Patron, but their social status remains the same as far as Social Caste goes. That has to be represented somehow on the chart, and was until now.
Furthermore, those artisans who have elevated themselves enjoy the privileges afforded to them by their social status. A status equal to that of recognized bards and shadow artists, not equal to whatever a given crafter might be in a House. Those artists also don't have to be permanently attached to a given patron or organization, they could elevate themselves and their status through independent dedication to the city. Such individuals would be entirely unrepresented in the social structure you're presenting now.
Quote from: Nyr on November 07, 2013, 06:31:29 PMThere are other things that will change with this revision of the caste structure as well, and maybe artisan is not a good name for shadow artists and bards....but it works for a quick and dirty update to a chart that has not seen work in 4 years.
No, the Artisan Caste is not the ideal name for bards and shadow artists,
once you remove actual artisans from their own caste. It fit perfectly fine though while it included them.
Frankly I'm both worried and upset at the way you're seemingly eliminating one of the corner-stones of Tuluki Society: it's artists. Art is woven into the very fabric of Tuluk, and you can see that everywhere you turn in the city. Murals are being painted, sculptures are being carved. And bards and artisans are the two most recognizable and socially respected "trades" of that culture.
Clearly you have some issues with crafter players and their "spamcrafting" but that's no reason to eliminate an entire aspect of an IC culture, especially if based on the fact you don't seem to comprehend it or appreciate it. But if you're planning on making the only formally recognized social caste Bards and your newly-revamped Shadow Artists, you're taking away a lot from the North and I can only hope someone else on staff can offer you perspective on this.
Quote from: Ouroboros on November 07, 2013, 07:26:28 PM
Quote from: Nyr on November 07, 2013, 06:31:29 PMAs for the artisan rank...since it is partially known as a category solely attainable by spamcrafting, that should be removed from that help file.
Um... Those social ranks have nothing to do with skill ranks, Nyr. Being a Master Tailor in your skill lists doesn't make you a Master Artisan, any more than Master Backstab makes you a Master Shadow Artist, or Master Instrument Making makes you a Master Bard.
Such positions revolve around social influence, recognition, and achievements. A Master Artisan would be someone that has shown exceptional dedication and mastery over their art, well-past what any skilled crafter might. They would have produced for example public art installations, received the favor of high-ranking patrons, and overall proven themselves not just skilled, but patriotic assets to Tuluki Society. They would potentially have apprentices of their own, and so forth.
Quote from: Nyr on November 07, 2013, 06:31:29 PMIf you are an accomplished artist of some Other discipline and can show significant support, then your supporter (patron or employer organization) should assign you an appropriate role in the rank structure.
I assume you mean in that patron's or organization's rank structure. That, however, is an internal rank. The point isn't what the organization views you as, but what Society view you as. A Tuluki Master Artisan might be called a "Silver Chisel" by a Tenneshi Patron or "Head Stonecarver" by a Winrothol Patron, but their social status remains the same as far as Social Caste goes. That has to be represented somehow on the chart, and was until now.
Furthermore, those artisans who have elevated themselves enjoy the privileges afforded to them by their social status. A status equal to that of recognized bards and shadow artists, not equal to whatever a given crafter might be in a House. Those artists also don't have to be permanently attached to a given patron or organization, they could elevate themselves and their status through independent dedication to the city. Such individuals would be entirely unrepresented in the social structure you're presenting now.
Quote from: Nyr on November 07, 2013, 06:31:29 PMThere are other things that will change with this revision of the caste structure as well, and maybe artisan is not a good name for shadow artists and bards....but it works for a quick and dirty update to a chart that has not seen work in 4 years.
No, the Artisan Caste is not the ideal name for bards and shadow artists, once you remove actual artisans from their own caste. It fit perfectly fine though while it included them.
Frankly I'm both worried and upset at the way you're seemingly eliminating one of the corner-stones of Tuluki Society: it's artists. Art is woven into the very fabric of Tuluk, and you can see that everywhere you turn in the city. Murals are being painted, sculptures are being carved. And bards and artisans are the two most recognizable and socially respected "trades" of that culture.
Clearly you have some issues with crafter players and their "spamcrafting" but that's no reason to eliminate an entire aspect of an IC culture, especially if based on the fact you don't seem to comprehend it or appreciate it. But if you're planning on making the only formally recognized social caste Bards and your newly-revamped Shadow Artists, you're taking away a lot from the North and I can only hope someone else on staff can offer you perspective on this.
An artisan in the crafter sense is represented socially though, just not specifically for being an artisan. Either they are a partisan to someone (which would mean the standing of their patron affects their social standing), they are an employee of someone or a bard (which fits into the GMH employee/noble house employee/bard ranking part of the table), or they are independent (which makes them independent commoners).
I personally don't see the old issue being spamcrafting specifically, so much as it was being able to attain a high rank just by being recognized as being a crafter. Being a crafter shouldn't make you particularly special as an independent - the population of Zalanthas presumably covets clanned jobs, but this never necessarily translated completely to the PC population, when it should have - especially in Tuluk, which players see as being the easier place to be an independent, despite all the fun that can be had through affiliation.
And assuming that the social ranking allows for gradations within ranks (which in practice, it does), which creates a pecking order among peers, the system would theoretically allow for two independent artisans to be in competition for social status. The recent changes would seem to emphasize association with higher powers as a more desirable option for an independent than it used to be. There is more money in being independent, but there is more protection and fame in affiliation.
So, long story short, this is going to be better for concentrating PCs into clanned roleplay in Tuluk, which offers increased access to the kinds of plots players tend to say they can't find in Tuluk.
Quote from: Cutthroat on November 07, 2013, 08:11:04 PMAn artisan in the crafter sense is represented socially though, just not specifically for being an artisan. Either they are a partisan to someone (which would mean the standing of their patron affects their social standing), they are an employee of someone or a bard (which fits into the GMH employee/noble house employee/bard ranking part of the table), or they are independent (which makes them independent commoners).
The average artisan is represented, yes, as an independent commoner. Their talent or recognition in being elevated into a higher caste however, isn't. As it stands, an artisan is either one of many (an independent commoner, at the bottom of the rung) or... Whatever rank they can achieve through strictly clan association, and only within that clan. At which point what they are doesn't really matter as much as what their clan ranks them as. They're not "Master Artisans", they're "Senior Employees of Noble House or Templarate", no different than any non-Artisan senior employees in the Commoner caste. They receive no recognition from society for being what they are though, only what their organizational associations rank them as.
Quote from: Cutthroat on November 07, 2013, 08:11:04 PMI personally don't see the old issue being spamcrafting specifically, so much as it was being able to attain a high rank just by being recognized as being a crafter.
Then you're either not fully grasping the difference between a common artisan and one who's received recognition as an Accomplished or Master Artisan, or... You don't grasp the importance of artisans in Tuluk, as a whole.
Yes,
just being recognized as an exceptional artisan in Tuluk was enough to elevate your social standing. By the very same principles bards have enjoyed that sort of social standing,
just by (if we're going to overly simplify things) singing a good song. That's one of the fundamentally unique aspects of Tuluk, the importance they place on art and culture. Now it's just culture and sneakiness, we're tossing out art with the bathwater.
Perhaps this is a hint for Allanak to grab up some prime thematic real estate though, eh? If the North no longer recognizes its artisans as special, perhaps players who enjoy such roles should move South. Food for thought, for all you southern Nobles and Templars looking for something to do, or Merchants and Crafters tired of chasing after 'sid.
Quote from: Cutthroat on November 07, 2013, 08:11:04 PMBeing a crafter shouldn't make you particularly special as an independent - the population of Zalanthas presumably covets clanned jobs, but this never necessarily translated completely to the PC population, when it should have - especially in Tuluk, which players see as being the easier place to be an independent, despite all the fun that can be had through affiliation.
Being a crafter
doesn't make you particularly special, as an independent or as a clanned individual. Being an exceptional crafter however does make you very, very special however. Or it used to. And whether you were an independent working under the patronage system or a fully-clanned employee, had nothing to do with it.
Furthermore, in order to rise to such a position, some level of patronage is assumed. It tends to go hand-in-hand with social standing for any commoner. However, just as Bards and Shadow Artists begin to sever their patronage cords as they rise in ranks, so would any rising Artisan. Someone viewed by society as a Master Artisan would no longer serve an individual patron, but society itself. That doesn't exactly fit into the picture you're trying to present, of a clear-cut push to shove PCs into clans, so I really can't see how its relevant to the change Nyr has decided on.
Is this how the chart is meant to be read?
Social Rank Chart in List Form -- From Highest to Lowest
Sun King (Exalted)
High Precentor (Exalted)
Inquisitors (Exalted)
Precentors (Exalted)
Illuminated (Templar)
Head of House (Chosen)
High Templar (Templar)
Senior Family (Chosen)
Head of House (Merchant)
Templar (Templar)
Juior Family (Chosen)
General (Legions)
Circle Leader (Artisan)
Colonel (Legions)
Master Bard (Aristan)
Captain (Legions)
Master Shadow Artist (Artisan)
Senior Merchant (Merchant)
Lieutenant (Legions)
Senior noble/templar employee (Commoner)
Bard, Journeyman Shadow Artist (Artist)
Merchant, Byn Lieutenant (Merchant)
Sergeant (Legions)
Middle noble/Templar employee (Commoner)
Ranked Legion/Artistan/Lyksaen Slaves (Slaves)
Apprentice Shadow Artist (Artist)
Junior Merchant, Byn Sargeant (Merchant)
Corporal (Legions)
Seeker, Junior noble/templar employee (Commoner)
Ranked House Slaves/Artisan slaves (Slaves)
Entry-level employees (Merchant)
Private (Legions)
Apprentice of Poet's Circle (Commoner)
Personal Noble/templar slaves (Slaves)
Independant Commoner (Commoner)
Skilled slave (Slave)
Unskilled Slave (Slave)
Quote from: Ouroboros on November 07, 2013, 09:05:43 PM
Quote from: Cutthroat on November 07, 2013, 08:11:04 PMAn artisan in the crafter sense is represented socially though, just not specifically for being an artisan. Either they are a partisan to someone (which would mean the standing of their patron affects their social standing), they are an employee of someone or a bard (which fits into the GMH employee/noble house employee/bard ranking part of the table), or they are independent (which makes them independent commoners).
The average artisan is represented, yes, as an independent commoner. Their talent or recognition in being elevated into a higher caste however, isn't. As it stands, an artisan is either one of many (an independent commoner, at the bottom of the rung) or... Whatever rank they can achieve through strictly clan association, and only within that clan. At which point what they are doesn't really matter as much as what their clan ranks them as. They're not "Master Artisans", they're "Senior Employees of Noble House or Templarate", no different than any non-Artisan senior employees in the Commoner caste. They receive no recognition from society for being what they are though, only what their organizational associations rank them as.
Their organizational associations would be ranking them in terms of their ability, though. Their rank isn't just "Senior Noble House Employee", it's "Master Stonecrafter of House Whatever" or "Master Stonecrafter and partisan of Chosen/Faithful Lord/Lady Fancy Pants". They're not missing out on any benefits gained from their status as an artisan, so long as they are employed.
Quote
Quote from: Cutthroat on November 07, 2013, 08:11:04 PMI personally don't see the old issue being spamcrafting specifically, so much as it was being able to attain a high rank just by being recognized as being a crafter.
Then you're either not fully grasping the difference between a common artisan and one who's received recognition as an Accomplished or Master Artisan, or... You don't grasp the importance of artisans in Tuluk, as a whole.
Yes, just being recognized as an exceptional artisan in Tuluk was enough to elevate your social standing. By the very same principles bards have enjoyed that sort of social standing, just by (if we're going to overly simplify things) singing a good song. That's one of the fundamentally unique aspects of Tuluk, the importance they place on art and culture. Now it's just culture and sneakiness, we're tossing out art with the bathwater.
Perhaps this is a hint for Allanak to grab up some prime thematic real estate though, eh? If the North no longer recognizes its artisans as special, perhaps players who enjoy such roles should move South. Food for thought, for all you southern Nobles and Templars looking for something to do, or Merchants and Crafters tired of chasing after 'sid.
Actually, I'm pretty sure I do understand the difference and importance.
The bard/artisan comparison is moot if you're comparing an independent artisan to a bard, because bards have the backing of Poet's Circle, and there are established ranks in Poet's Circle, as well as arcs of learning. Independent artisans don't get the same, official recognition without being affiliated and being promoted within their clan in the first place (not that I'm aware of. If anything, it was uncommon). That's no oversimplification, simply the way things have been in practice. If anything, the old chart was an inaccurate representation of how things work in Tuluk, at least with respect to artisans.
The north still recognizes a place for artisans, there's just an increased emphasis on affiliation vs. being independent. For what it's worth, that thematically exists in Allanak as well. It does take players to play that out though.
QuoteHowever, just as Bards and Shadow Artists begin to sever their patronage cords as they rise in ranks, so would any rising Artisan. Someone viewed by society as a Master Artisan would no longer serve an individual patron, but society itself.
Do they? There's nothing in the documentation about that that I'm aware of.
Quote from: Cutthroat on November 07, 2013, 09:50:00 PMTheir organizational associations would be ranking them in terms of their ability, though. Their rank isn't just "Senior Noble House Employee", it's "Master Stonecrafter of House Whatever" or "Master Stonecrafter and partisan of Chosen/Faithful Lord/Lady Fancy Pants". They're not missing out on any benefits gained from their status as an artisan, so long as they are employed.
That depends on both how you view the lateral social finer points (between the Artisans, Merchants, and Commoners in the Commoner class, for example), and how you view employment. There's a difference between Partisan and Employee, in every Chosen House. Employees are clanned, full-time members of those clans and in senior positions, many of whom take a lifeoath. Partisans are not considered employees of a Chosen House. As it stands then, artisan Partisans under your example are left only with independent commoner status and whatever small bump their patron's status affords them, not their own merit.
Quote from: Cutthroat on November 07, 2013, 09:50:00 PMThe bard/artisan comparison is moot if you're comparing an independent artisan to a bard, because bards have the backing of Poet's Circle, and there are established ranks in Poet's Circle, as well as arcs of learning. Independent artisans don't get the same, official recognition without being affiliated and being promoted within their clan in the first place (not that I'm aware of. If anything, it was uncommon). That's no oversimplification, simply the way things have been in practice. If anything, the old chart was an inaccurate representation of how things work in Tuluk, at least with respect to artisans.
Something being uncommon has no basis for thematic documentation. By that principle, both Exalted and Slave rankings don't need to go on the chart, because they're positions that aren't common amongst PCs. The old chart offered a full view of Tuluki society, not a day-to-day rank overview. Were Accomplished or Master Artisan PCs common? No. But like you said, it does take players to play that out. Removing them entirely from the charts means they no longer exist, not are simply uncommon. As for what's happened in practice, that's entirely subjective. Your PCs may not have granted as much respect to esteemed artisans of Tuluk as someone else's might have, but as per the documentation, that respect was at least there and available to be earned.
Quote from: Cutthroat on November 07, 2013, 09:50:00 PMThe north still recognizes a place for artisans, there's just an increased emphasis on affiliation vs. being independent.
There's a difference however between affiliation and employment as well, and that's being lost here. I also still contend that the push you're seeing doesn't exist exactly as presented. The low-level push of PCs into clans evolves into independence from any single clan or employer the higher you get, it's not straight across the board. And the Artisan ranks we're discussing are high-level ones.
Quote from: Cutthroat on November 07, 2013, 09:50:00 PMFor what it's worth, that thematically exists in Allanak as well. It does take players to play that out though.
To a certain extent, definitely. It's just not what Allanak's renown for, and therein lies the difference. You think art and music, you think Tuluk. The seeds are there for a Southern focus on art though, certainly, and my point was that perhaps they should now be nurtured, not that they don't exist. In the end, it comes down to how a society treats it's members. Art thrived in Tuluk because society elevated artists above others and nurtured them to a large extent, and in turn those artists dedicated their time and talent into furthering their skill towards the betterment of society. Instead of following any other trade that might normally profit them, for example.
Quote from: Cutthroat on November 07, 2013, 09:50:00 PMQuoteHowever, just as Bards and Shadow Artists begin to sever their patronage cords as they rise in ranks, so would any rising Artisan. Someone viewed by society as a Master Artisan would no longer serve an individual patron, but society itself.
Do they? There's nothing in the documentation about that that I'm aware of.
There isn't per se, no, because that aspect of the culture was never fully fleshed out, as the Bardic Circles were, and the Shadow Artists now are. However, you can extrapolate that from the fact that two out of three ranks in the Artisan caste, the only ones documented so far, function that way. It's a guess perhaps, but an educated one, that follows the same line of thought existent in other aspects of the culture.
This is certainly something I'd be happy to see staff develop in the documentation, but the lack of such doesn't affect my feelings on the chart either way. To put it another way... The chart elevated Artisans for a good many RL years, without needing any full-fledged documentation to back that up, much less a formally structured clan or organization. I see no reason Artisans can't continue to exist on the chart as they have, and let players aspiring to those ranks work for it IC with staff's assistance, should they so wish to. If having that structure in place is crucial to staff however, they can simply decide to finally flesh it out. Tossing out that aspect of Tuluki culture simply because they haven't yet fleshed it out seems... well, I'll say wrong, in place of a stronger word.
D:
Quote from: Ouroboros on November 07, 2013, 07:26:28 PM
Quote from: Nyr on November 07, 2013, 06:31:29 PMAs for the artisan rank...since it is partially known as a category solely attainable by spamcrafting, that should be removed from that help file.
Um... Those social ranks have nothing to do with skill ranks, Nyr. Being a Master Tailor in your skill lists doesn't make you a Master Artisan, any more than Master Backstab makes you a Master Shadow Artist, or Master Instrument Making makes you a Master Bard.
What I'm saying is that a master crafter is already defined as someone that has (master) beside a skill. I've removed master crafter from the wording in the social hierarchy documentation.
QuoteSuch positions revolve around social influence, recognition, and achievements. A Master Artisan would be someone that has shown exceptional dedication and mastery over their art, well-past what any skilled crafter might. They would have produced for example public art installations, received the favor of high-ranking patrons, and overall proven themselves not just skilled, but patriotic assets to Tuluki Society. They would potentially have apprentices of their own, and so forth.
Not anymore.
Quote from: current docsArtisan
The artisan caste consists of the elite of the other two
common castes. Included in the artisan caste are ranked Circle bards
of Bard rank or above and extremely accomplished shadow artists.
If you have shown all of the things you have described here, you're going to already have societal rank that fits somewhere else in the chart. Employees/partisans of a templar or noble or even of a merchant group...it all fits there. It's fine.
Quote
Quote from: Nyr on November 07, 2013, 06:31:29 PMIf you are an accomplished artist of some Other discipline and can show significant support, then your supporter (patron or employer organization) should assign you an appropriate role in the rank structure.
I assume you mean in that patron's or organization's rank structure.
I don't. I mean that there's a social hierarchy already. There's no place for someone to just be really awesome at something independently, the only exception being extremely-long-lived independent organizations, which already have a place in the docs. Sorry.
Quote
Furthermore, those artisans who have elevated themselves enjoy the privileges afforded to them by their social status. A status equal to that of recognized bards and shadow artists, not equal to whatever a given crafter might be in a House. Those artists also don't have to be permanently attached to a given patron or organization, they could elevate themselves and their status through independent dedication to the city. Such individuals would be entirely unrepresented in the social structure you're presenting now.
Sorry. That doesn't exist in Tuluk, and shouldn't. That's why it's being changed.
Quote
Quote from: Nyr on November 07, 2013, 06:31:29 PMThere are other things that will change with this revision of the caste structure as well, and maybe artisan is not a good name for shadow artists and bards....but it works for a quick and dirty update to a chart that has not seen work in 4 years.
No, the Artisan Caste is not the ideal name for bards and shadow artists, once you remove actual artisans from their own caste. It fit perfectly fine though while it included them.
Well, it's apparent we disagree then. This isn't how Tuluk is going to be, nor is it how Tuluk should be.
QuoteFrankly I'm both worried and upset at the way you're seemingly eliminating one of the corner-stones of Tuluki Society: it's artists. Art is woven into the very fabric of Tuluk, and you can see that everywhere you turn in the city. Murals are being painted, sculptures are being carved. And bards and artisans are the two most recognizable and socially respected "trades" of that culture.
Murals painted by...established organizations or partisans of established organizations, whether they be tribal or noble or merchant in nature. They already have a place in society.
QuoteClearly you have some issues with crafter players and their "spamcrafting" but that's no reason to eliminate an entire aspect of an IC culture, especially if based on the fact you don't seem to comprehend it or appreciate it. But if you're planning on making the only formally recognized social caste Bards and your newly-revamped Shadow Artists, you're taking away a lot from the North and I can only hope someone else on staff can offer you perspective on this.
I removed master crafting and artisans of various disciplines. As I said, I removed "master crafting" because that's skill-based and skill alone does not determine societal rank. If you want social rank, hitch your wagon to someone that has social pull.
With the new changes will someone's staus as a shadow artist be generally public knowledge or will this be considered confidential information?
Quote from: Ouroboros on November 07, 2013, 09:05:43 PM
Quote from: Cutthroat on November 07, 2013, 08:11:04 PMAn artisan in the crafter sense is represented socially though, just not specifically for being an artisan. Either they are a partisan to someone (which would mean the standing of their patron affects their social standing), they are an employee of someone or a bard (which fits into the GMH employee/noble house employee/bard ranking part of the table), or they are independent (which makes them independent commoners).
The average artisan is represented, yes, as an independent commoner. Their talent or recognition in being elevated into a higher caste however, isn't. As it stands, an artisan is either one of many (an independent commoner, at the bottom of the rung) or... Whatever rank they can achieve through strictly clan association, and only within that clan. At which point what they are doesn't really matter as much as what their clan ranks them as. They're not "Master Artisans", they're "Senior Employees of Noble House or Templarate", no different than any non-Artisan senior employees in the Commoner caste. They receive no recognition from society for being what they are though, only what their organizational associations rank them as.
Correct. You can't be socially awesome in Tuluk all by yourself with just your skills and your wits.
Quote
Quote from: Cutthroat on November 07, 2013, 08:11:04 PMI personally don't see the old issue being spamcrafting specifically, so much as it was being able to attain a high rank just by being recognized as being a crafter.
Then you're either not fully grasping the difference between a common artisan and one who's received recognition as an Accomplished or Master Artisan, or... You don't grasp the importance of artisans in Tuluk, as a whole.
I'll be blunt: I really doubt anyone has ever recognized themselves (or been recognized by others) as an accomplished or master artisan without social backing in some other sense. If they have been, it was an anomaly, and it should have been stamped out. Just like having money doesn't grant you power in Zalanthas, having skill doesn't grant you social rank in Tuluk.
QuoteYes, just being recognized as an exceptional artisan in Tuluk was enough to elevate your social standing. By the very same principles bards have enjoyed that sort of social standing, just by (if we're going to overly simplify things) singing a good song. That's one of the fundamentally unique aspects of Tuluk, the importance they place on art and culture. Now it's just culture and sneakiness, we're tossing out art with the bathwater.
Bards have a whole social organization backing them as well as a deeply ingrained history in Tuluk. They're in docs everywhere. Bards also have some minor emphasis on art. You know who else (currently) has emphasis on artistic endeavors? Kadius, Tenneshi, Akai Sjir. Any patron can want something commissioned by an artisan or artist or an established group that already handles those things.
No one is saying that people can't play indie artists/artisans/whatever. I am saying explicitly that such a thing does not give you social status in Tuluk's caste system.
Quote
Perhaps this is a hint for Allanak to grab up some prime thematic real estate though, eh? If the North no longer recognizes its artisans as special, perhaps players who enjoy such roles should move South. Food for thought, for all you southern Nobles and Templars looking for something to do, or Merchants and Crafters tired of chasing after 'sid.
If you enjoy playing an artisan, play where you want to play.
If you enjoy playing a snowflake artisan that has no ties to anyone and wants to succeed purely on skill, roleplay, and moxie, go right ahead and play where you want to play as well. This tactic will (for the most part) result in a very difficult role to play that will (more than likely) end with your PC's death.
An independent artisan with no backing is a target.
Quote
Quote from: Cutthroat on November 07, 2013, 08:11:04 PMBeing a crafter shouldn't make you particularly special as an independent - the population of Zalanthas presumably covets clanned jobs, but this never necessarily translated completely to the PC population, when it should have - especially in Tuluk, which players see as being the easier place to be an independent, despite all the fun that can be had through affiliation.
Being a crafter doesn't make you particularly special, as an independent or as a clanned individual. Being an exceptional crafter however does make you very, very special however. Or it used to. And whether you were an independent working under the patronage system or a fully-clanned employee, had nothing to do with it.
If you're an independent working under the patronage system...you're not an independent.
Quote
Furthermore, in order to rise to such a position, some level of patronage is assumed. It tends to go hand-in-hand with social standing for any commoner. However, just as Bards and Shadow Artists begin to sever their patronage cords as they rise in ranks, so would any rising Artisan.
Well, seeing as how that's not (and has never been) in the docs, I can tell you that no, this is not what happens and it is not what is going to happen.
QuoteSomeone viewed by society as a Master Artisan would no longer serve an individual patron, but society itself.
This is one area of the documentation where you can't extrapolate from one area to another.
Quote from: Ouroboros on November 07, 2013, 10:38:33 PM
Quote from: Cutthroat on November 07, 2013, 09:50:00 PMTheir organizational associations would be ranking them in terms of their ability, though. Their rank isn't just "Senior Noble House Employee", it's "Master Stonecrafter of House Whatever" or "Master Stonecrafter and partisan of Chosen/Faithful Lord/Lady Fancy Pants". They're not missing out on any benefits gained from their status as an artisan, so long as they are employed.
That depends on both how you view the lateral social finer points (between the Artisans, Merchants, and Commoners in the Commoner class, for example), and how you view employment. There's a difference between Partisan and Employee, in every Chosen House. Employees are clanned, full-time members of those clans and in senior positions, many of whom take a lifeoath. Partisans are not considered employees of a Chosen House. As it stands then, artisan Partisans under your example are left only with independent commoner status and whatever small bump their patron's status affords them, not their own merit.
Sounds like this could be easily fixed by just saying that in some cases, partisans fall into the same categories on the chart as employees.
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Quote from: Cutthroat on November 07, 2013, 09:50:00 PMThe bard/artisan comparison is moot if you're comparing an independent artisan to a bard, because bards have the backing of Poet's Circle, and there are established ranks in Poet's Circle, as well as arcs of learning. Independent artisans don't get the same, official recognition without being affiliated and being promoted within their clan in the first place (not that I'm aware of. If anything, it was uncommon). That's no oversimplification, simply the way things have been in practice. If anything, the old chart was an inaccurate representation of how things work in Tuluk, at least with respect to artisans.
Something being uncommon has no basis for thematic documentation. By that principle, both Exalted and Slave rankings don't need to go on the chart, because they're positions that aren't common amongst PCs. The old chart offered a full view of Tuluki society, not a day-to-day rank overview. Were Accomplished or Master Artisan PCs common? No. But like you said, it does take players to play that out. Removing them entirely from the charts means they no longer exist, not are simply uncommon. As for what's happened in practice, that's entirely subjective. Your PCs may not have granted as much respect to esteemed artisans of Tuluk as someone else's might have, but as per the documentation, that respect was at least there and available to be earned.
The old chart was created by a staffer that didn't get official approval (which is why it was never linked anywhere on the old website, you had to know the specific location of the link). It got official approval and something of a revamp when I took a look at it a few years ago with Adhira and Vanth. There was stuff in there we removed, like a Shunned caste that wasn't anywhere else in the documentation. It then remain untouched (and still relatively obscure) and unlinked (not really sure why we never popped it in anywhere) until this week, where we were finally at a point where the stuff on that caste chart actually mattered. And yeah, it's getting a facelift and things still might change on it.
I wouldn't get too worked up about it. It was obscure and occasionally referenced. Now it's not, but it's being changed (and not just for the sake of change). I've explained why.
QuoteQuote from: Cutthroat on November 07, 2013, 09:50:00 PMThe north still recognizes a place for artisans, there's just an increased emphasis on affiliation vs. being independent.
There's a difference however between affiliation and employment as well, and that's being lost here. I also still contend that the push you're seeing doesn't exist exactly as presented. The low-level push of PCs into clans evolves into independence from any single clan or employer the higher you get, it's not straight across the board. And the Artisan ranks we're discussing are high-level ones.
Like I said, it sounds like this can be easily rectified by making it clear that partisans fall into the ranks of employees for the purposes of social ranking in some cases.
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Quote from: Cutthroat on November 07, 2013, 09:50:00 PMFor what it's worth, that thematically exists in Allanak as well. It does take players to play that out though.
To a certain extent, definitely. It's just not what Allanak's renown for, and therein lies the difference. You think art and music, you think Tuluk. The seeds are there for a Southern focus on art though, certainly, and my point was that perhaps they should now be nurtured, not that they don't exist. In the end, it comes down to how a society treats it's members. Art thrived in Tuluk because society elevated artists above others and nurtured them to a large extent, and in turn those artists dedicated their time and talent into furthering their skill towards the betterment of society. Instead of following any other trade that might normally profit them, for example.
Art thrived in Tuluk because society elevated artists that had affiliation or employment in some other capacity. Tuluk is not meant to be a shrine to independent boot-strappy-ness.
QuoteQuote from: Cutthroat on November 07, 2013, 09:50:00 PMQuoteHowever, just as Bards and Shadow Artists begin to sever their patronage cords as they rise in ranks, so would any rising Artisan. Someone viewed by society as a Master Artisan would no longer serve an individual patron, but society itself.
Do they? There's nothing in the documentation about that that I'm aware of.
There isn't per se, no, because that aspect of the culture was never fully fleshed out, as the Bardic Circles were, and the Shadow Artists now are. However, you can extrapolate that from the fact that two out of three ranks in the Artisan caste, the only ones documented so far, function that way. It's a guess perhaps, but an educated one, that follows the same line of thought existent in other aspects of the culture.
It's probably not going to be fleshed out the way you are expecting. There was extensive stuff in the documentation for years supporting bards. There was a smaller amount of stuff in the documentation for years supporting shadow artists. The only place artisans and their "rank" showed up was on an obscure page that is now ported to the main website with changes, the main change being "gee, this is a bit of an anomaly, let's put it somewhere else."
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This is certainly something I'd be happy to see staff develop in the documentation, but the lack of such doesn't affect my feelings on the chart either way. To put it another way... The chart elevated Artisans for a good many RL years, without needing any full-fledged documentation to back that up, much less a formally structured clan or organization. I see no reason Artisans can't continue to exist on the chart as they have, and let players aspiring to those ranks work for it IC with staff's assistance, should they so wish to. If having that structure in place is crucial to staff however, they can simply decide to finally flesh it out. Tossing out that aspect of Tuluki culture simply because they haven't yet fleshed it out seems... well, I'll say wrong, in place of a stronger word.
Pluto still exists even if it's not called a planet anymore. Artists and artisans still exist even if they don't have a special spot dedicated to them in an ambiguously written part of the documentation.
Quote from: Molten Heart on November 08, 2013, 09:40:09 AM
With the new changes will someone's staus as a shadow artist be generally public knowledge or will this be considered confidential information?
Ah, questions about the system!
This is up to the artist. Put your registration on your cheek like James de Monet's picture? Hard to hide that one...put it on your buttcheek? Sure, you can hide your status as an artist if you want, to whatever ends you might wish! It doesn't mean that people can't find out though (I mean, you might get naked at some point).
Quote from: Taven on November 07, 2013, 09:49:53 PM
Is this how the chart is meant to be read?
Social Rank Chart in List Form -- From Highest to Lowest
Sun King (Exalted)
High Precentor (Exalted)
Inquisitors (Exalted)
Precentors (Exalted)
Illuminated (Templar)
Head of House (Chosen)
High Templar (Templar)
Senior Family (Chosen)
Head of House (Merchant)
Templar (Templar)
Juior Family (Chosen)
General (Legions)
Circle Leader (Artisan)
Colonel (Legions)
Master Bard (Aristan)
Captain (Legions)
Master Shadow Artist (Artisan)
Senior Merchant (Merchant)
Lieutenant (Legions)
Senior noble/templar employee (Commoner)
Bard, Journeyman Shadow Artist (Artist)
Merchant, Byn Lieutenant (Merchant)
Sergeant (Legions)
Middle noble/Templar employee (Commoner)
Ranked Legion/Artistan/Lyksaen Slaves (Slaves)
Apprentice Shadow Artist (Artist)
Junior Merchant, Byn Sargeant (Merchant)
Corporal (Legions)
Seeker, Junior noble/templar employee (Commoner)
Ranked House Slaves/Artisan slaves (Slaves)
Entry-level employees (Merchant)
Private (Legions)
Apprentice of Poet's Circle (Commoner)
Personal Noble/templar slaves (Slaves)
Independant Commoner (Commoner)
Skilled slave (Slave)
Unskilled Slave (Slave)
Not at all.
Caste matters first and foremost. If we're talking about shadow artist stuff, let's focus on that aspect, then.
A noble has a higher
caste than a commoner. They are (by default) just plain better than commoners. A noble can (in theory) put in for a contract against any commoner.
In practice, we find that there are cases where a commoner's social
rank is so high that it may not work out that way. At the highest end of each caste, there tends to be bias in favor of the person with the higher rank. Junior noble wants to take down the head of house for Nenyuk? "Certainly, Chosen Lady. That will be five hundred large." The only way that kind of coin is going to be fronted is if the Head of House for that noble actually backs it and gets their House behind THEM on it, devoting such a large amount of resources to ending the life of one incredibly powerful figure. Even then, this is such an extreme scenario that it's possible that the highest members of each caste (or even each subdivision of caste) are virtually untouchable.
Even if you're a High Templar, you might still face difficulty taking overt or even covert action against a Bardic Circle Leader, whether it's "shadow artistry" or just "sending soldiers to round the Leader up." The very highest members of each caste/subcaste have significant virtual resources in most cases.
Let's say the Head of House for Nenyuk wants a noble dead. They still can't do that directly--it's not their caste. This is an advantage caste serves. However, if you're a noble and the Head of House for Nenyuk tells you they want to have you put in a contract against another noble...would you jump at the chance? Probably so. You'd ask "how high should I jump?" and then follow it up with "I really hope you're paying me well for this," and of course, they will, because you're their route into the system.
And if you do say no...well, money opens up doors that otherwise may stay shut. Watch your back. It may not be a registered shadow artist that comes for you...it may just be some Nenyuki thugs. You might find your account liquidated, all due to "bank errors."
For the most part, however, this is a virtual matter and not really something that would come up except in rare cases for PCs.
I'll add one more thing that might make it make more sense:
It's a little like Whira's Luck.
If caste is unequal between two people, the person with the higher caste wins.
If caste is equal, the person with the higher social rank wins.
Exceptions: most often at the edges, as mentioned in the previous post.
So....it I read that right, if a commoner wanted to annoy a noble or templar, they would target their slaves, because commoner caste is higher than slave caste, so social rank of all except the truly critical slaves is irrelevant? Assuming they didn't get a patron to help them. I am assuming NPC and vNPC are acceptable targets under this system?
Also, where are non-citizens socially ranked. I would have assumed in the Commoner caste below (Tuluki?) independents (since you don't have a separate caste for those not Tuluki below slaves), except for those in the GMH? Not so much an issue for the Tuluki wanting to do something to some random non-citizen, but the clarification would help to know if they random non-citizen could use the system to do something to the random Tuluki indepentent. I first thought that non-citizens would just not be part of the system, but then that is a cop-out because obviously at points they will be the targets (and potentially attractive ones at that for the patriotic) of the system. It would seem cleaner to consider them a "caste" below slave, so that they couldn't take out contracts (except on other non-citizens?).
I think I understand. I have some questions.
1. What are the "entry level employees" in the Merchant Caste section? Are we talking Merchant House employees, or Byn runners? I ask because the Byn is included in that section.
2. Why is an "entry level employee" (merchant caste) having more standing then a Legions private? Does that mean that if an entry level merchant employee wants to do a contract on a private that doesn't involve physical harm, it's okay?
3. Seekers are not part of the artisan caste, they are considered commoners. However, freshly-inked Apprentice Shadow artists (someone who could have gotten their inks yesterday) are considered both artistan caste AND are set at a rank equal to Seekers. This makes no sense to me at all.
4. Bards are ranked at the same level as Journeyman Shadow Artists. Considering that there have been so few PC Bards ever, and the docs suggest that you can become a Shadow Artist Journeyman in three years... Are these really appropriately ranked?
5. Are there gradations within ranks? How does patronage apply?
Quote from: Taven on November 08, 2013, 03:29:48 PM
I think I understand. I have some questions.
1. What are the "entry level employees" in the Merchant Caste section? Are we talking Merchant House employees, or Byn runners? I ask because the Byn is included in that section.
2. Why is an "entry level employee" (merchant caste) having more standing then a Legions private? Does that mean that if an entry level merchant employee wants to do a contract on a private that doesn't involve physical harm, it's okay?
3. Seekers are not part of the artisan caste, they are considered commoners. However, freshly-inked Apprentice Shadow artists (someone who could have gotten their inks yesterday) are considered both artistan caste AND are set at a rank equal to Seekers. This makes no sense to me at all.
4. Bards are ranked at the same level as Journeyman Shadow Artists. Considering that there have been so few PC Bards ever, and the docs suggest that you can become a Shadow Artist Journeyman in three years... Are these really appropriately ranked?
5. Are there gradations within ranks? How does patronage apply?
Try to think about how unreasonably dangerous it is to be a shadow artist. Weaving a song is one thing, shadow artists have only a single function: to risk life and limb to succeed in their task. They don't 'get' second chances usually. If a bard buffs a song and does terribly, he gets another chance to write a better one. If a Shadow Artist fails to stick his knife below the third lumbar and twist, or fails to crack the one guy over the head and steal all his shit, well, he's either dead in that instance, or dead when the Templar finds out he fucked up.
Nyr, I appreciate the time you took in responding. Some of it was clarifying, some of it was simply affirming. In the end though it comes down to...
Quote from: Nyr on November 08, 2013, 09:24:01 AMThis isn't how Tuluk is going to be, nor is it how Tuluk should be.
I'll agree on the first part, because Tuluk's buck stops with you. We'll have to simply agree to disagree on the second part, which shouldn't be hard since how something -should- be is entirely subjective to begin with. At best, how Tuluk -should- be could be attributed to the vision of those who developed it in the first place. But you've long departed from that vision, in favor of your own, so let's not dwell too long on how things -should- be and simply leave it at how they -will- be. At least for now, since nothing's permanent or sacred.
I had written more, but it would simply be wasting both our time as well as derail the thread further from it's topic. Such derails have become frequent from me as of late, but it isn't intentional. It just happens that each change you present also has some side-effect that might not be the topic of discussion, but still merits such. I'll try to refrain from future derails though, because in the end all the discussion in the world won't make you change your mind on something you've decided on. At best, on the topics you do post for discussion, we can share some thoughts and hope some of it clicks with you. Whatever isn't on your slate or in your vision though, clearly might as well not exist.
Best of luck, and I sincerely hope your vision pans out as you hope it will. Because at the end of the day, we're the ones stuck playing in it, not you.
I have another question - this one is geographical logistics, and it has actually been relevant in the past, so I'm assuming it would crop up now and then in the present/future:
Amos the Tuluk First Hunter for Kadius, who is -not- a family member, but -is- a true-inked Tuluk citizen. He pisses someone off badly enough to want him dead.
That someone arranges for the Byn to whack Amos next time Amos hires the Byn for a trip to Allanak. The instructions are to make sure said whacking occurs anywhere south of the Luir's southern gate; beyond that, the contract doesn't specify where or how.
Is the someone offering the contract, breaking the laws of shadow artists? Are they even breaking any laws at all in Tuluk? My guess would be no, since said whacking is a) not being contracted out to a shadow artist, b) not being contracted out to a Tuluki at all, c) specifying that the whacking not take place anywhere in the north.
But the fact that the someone, and Amos, are both Tuluk citizens - has me wondering if the someone might get in trouble "legally" for it, if the contract is discovered.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 08, 2013, 05:03:01 PM
I have another question - this one is geographical logistics, and it has actually been relevant in the past, so I'm assuming it would crop up now and then in the present/future:
Amos the Tuluk First Hunter for Kadius, who is -not- a family member, but -is- a true-inked Tuluk citizen. He pisses someone off badly enough to want him dead.
That someone arranges for the Byn to whack Amos next time Amos hires the Byn for a trip to Allanak. The instructions are to make sure said whacking occurs anywhere south of the Luir's southern gate; beyond that, the contract doesn't specify where or how.
Is the someone offering the contract, breaking the laws of shadow artists? Are they even breaking any laws at all in Tuluk? My guess would be no, since said whacking is a) not being contracted out to a shadow artist, b) not being contracted out to a Tuluki at all, c) specifying that the whacking not take place anywhere in the north.
But the fact that the someone, and Amos, are both Tuluk citizens - has me wondering if the someone might get in trouble "legally" for it, if the contract is discovered.
Murder is, and has always been, a crime in Tuluk. A shadow artist doesn't murder, he or she creates art. There is a large difference. Hiring a group of people for murder a political offense. Hiring a shadow artist for art is not.
Quote from: Twilight on November 08, 2013, 12:17:24 PM
So....it I read that right, if a commoner wanted to annoy a noble or templar, they would target their slaves, because commoner caste is higher than slave caste, so social rank of all except the truly critical slaves is irrelevant? Assuming they didn't get a patron to help them. I am assuming NPC and vNPC are acceptable targets under this system?
If a commoner thinks it wise to send a message to a noble by targeting their slave, more power to them. However, i think it is doubtful this would come up much for PCs.
NPCs aren't really off the table or anything, but I am not sure how one would target or take action against a vNPC.
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Also, where are non-citizens socially ranked. I would have assumed in the Commoner caste below (Tuluki?) independents (since you don't have a separate caste for those not Tuluki below slaves), except for those in the GMH? Not so much an issue for the Tuluki wanting to do something to some random non-citizen, but the clarification would help to know if they random non-citizen could use the system to do something to the random Tuluki indepentent. I first thought that non-citizens would just not be part of the system, but then that is a cop-out because obviously at points they will be the targets (and potentially attractive ones at that for the patriotic) of the system. It would seem cleaner to consider them a "caste" below slave, so that they couldn't take out contracts (except on other non-citizens?).
Covered under the note on foreigners.
QuoteForeigners
Foreigners and non-citizens not employed by a merchant house are not part of the caste system, but for the purposes of social class would be ranked below independent commoners.
Quote from: Taven on November 08, 2013, 03:29:48 PM
I think I understand. I have some questions.
1. What are the "entry level employees" in the Merchant Caste section? Are we talking Merchant House employees, or Byn runners? I ask because the Byn is included in that section.
Yes.
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2. Why is an "entry level employee" (merchant caste) having more standing then a Legions private? Does that mean that if an entry level merchant employee wants to do a contract on a private that doesn't involve physical harm, it's okay?
To the first: because GMHs have power.
To the second: perhaps, find out IC.
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3. Seekers are not part of the artisan caste, they are considered commoners. However, freshly-inked Apprentice Shadow artists (someone who could have gotten their inks yesterday) are considered both artistan caste AND are set at a rank equal to Seekers. This makes no sense to me at all.
You aren't an apprentice until you have done at least couple of jobs successfully.
Artisan isn't a specific caste. Commoner is. Artisan adequately describes bards of a certain rank or higher as well as shadow artists that have met minimum requirements.
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Apprentice
Shadow artists attain this rank by completing at least two contracts successfully.
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4. Bards are ranked at the same level as Journeyman Shadow Artists. Considering that there have been so few PC Bards ever, and the docs suggest that you can become a Shadow Artist Journeyman in three years... Are these really appropriately ranked?
Might need to adjust it a little, but sharing the same spot on the rank list does not mean exactly equal ranking. Rp comes into play there.
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5. Are there gradations within ranks? How does patronage apply?
Yes, but we aren't going to lay out every single case where two folks in tuluk might get into a social rank penis measuring contest.
To the latter, we'll make some tweaks to better account for partisans.
And, also, if a Shadow Artist fails to succeed those two jobs, uhh, he's probably dead meat or NEVER going to work as a Shadow Artist again.
Quote from: Nyr on November 08, 2013, 05:18:49 PM
QuoteNPCs aren't really off the table or anything, but I am not sure how one would target or take action against a vNPC.
*Queue mission impossible music, strummed by the bard at the end of the bar*
Your mission, should you choose to accept it...
Go to the stables and gather up the poo. That night, sabotage Salarri locations in Red Sun Commons with the poo to leave a scent. Get more poo. The next day, while they are wondering what happened, pelt Salarri crafters with poo, while heckling them for providing weapons to the Nakkis.
Or something. I was thinking of non-lethal situations mostly, and probably most situations that would include slaves, especially if you wanted a specific house or rank of slave humiliated.
On a non-related note, can you hire shadow artists to do something positive? Like loudly proclaim that Bard Amplebreast's song is the best ever, or similarly try to make it seem like there is support from other folks than are aligned with you (thinking about partisan shadow artists in part) to the public?
Quote from: Nyr on November 08, 2013, 05:29:48 PM
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2. Why is an "entry level employee" (merchant caste) having more standing then a Legions private? Does that mean that if an entry level merchant employee wants to do a contract on a private that doesn't involve physical harm, it's okay?
To the first: because GMHs have power.
To the second: perhaps, find out IC.
I don't mean to cause trouble, but I want to make sure I understand. You said that "entry level employee" covers bynner Runners in addition to GMH employees, which makes byn Runners have greater social standing then a Legions private. That seems really weird. Even if it was a Byn Trooper, it seems weird.
Wouldn't it make more sense for Bynner Runners and Troopers to be in the commoner column? Once you hit Sergeant or Lieutenant or whatever, I can see you having some pull, but it seems weird before then.
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3. Seekers are not part of the artisan caste, they are considered commoners. However, freshly-inked Apprentice Shadow artists (someone who could have gotten their inks yesterday) are considered both artistan caste AND are set at a rank equal to Seekers. This makes no sense to me at all.
You aren't an apprentice until you have done at least couple of jobs successfully.
Artisan isn't a specific caste. Commoner is. Artisan adequately describes bards of a certain rank or higher as well as shadow artists that have met minimum requirements.
Artisan is a distinction within a caste, alright. I can see how an Apprentice bard might be just a commoner, as they just auditioned in and may have not learned anything yet. But shouldn't a Seeker, who makes art for a living, be described as an artisan?
As to the rest, I look forward to seeing the tweaks.
BCW1, I'm sure what you're saying is true, theoretically, but it has nothing to do with my question. I'll put the question more succinctly:
If a citizen hires a non-citizen, to kill another citizen, outside of the City, away from the North - and that non-citizen succeeds, has a crime been committed in Tuluk?
The whole thing with patrons and agents and having to deal with red tape in order to get a "legitimate" contract implemented, left me wondering if this form of "non-sanctioned" contract is legitimate, non-legitimate, or a non-issue entirely.
If a crime has been committed, it would be the citizen who hires a non-citizen to do something to another citizen, away from the "jurisdiction" of the northern authority. Does the northern authority's authority, extend beyond the walls?
If some random red-stormer meets up with a citizen in Luir's, finds out about the citizen's headache against another citizen, and contracts out to do harm to that citizen next time that citizen rides south - has the first citizen committed a crime in Tuluk? I mean - he wasn't even IN Tuluk when he contracted the red-stormer to do something to the other citizen.
Again - my answer would be no, no crime has been committed, no slight against northern authority committed, nothing untoward been done. What happens outside the North, stays outside the North, and so on. But I'm not staff, which is why I asked.
I would definitely say it depends on who's being murdered in the first place, but the point I was trying to get across in the first place is that murdering a Tuluki citizen is murder, not art. Unless you're a shadow artist or hire one to do such. If you murder them outside the city, it's still murder and the proper authorities will come after you. If you murder them out of the Gol Krathu it's still murder and if the person warranted it, the proper authorities will come after you.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 08, 2013, 07:03:07 PM
Again - my answer would be no, no crime has been committed, no slight against northern authority committed, nothing untoward been done. What happens outside the North, stays outside the North, and so on. But I'm not staff, which is why I asked.
I'm not staff either but logically I'd feel thus:
If a Tuluki citizen goes against Tuluki law to do something to another citizen, anything, he is breaking the law and doing so knowingly. I wouldn't say "what happens outside the North stays outside the North" - I'd say "what the North doesn't know won't come bite you on the ass" and breaking Tuluki law is breaking the law, whether you're found out or not. The punishment for that sort of un-tuluki....ness...? would be severe? Banishment? Forceful removal of tattoos, forcing whatever House (Noble or otherwise) to fire them, death/disappearance... Maybe the Templarate there should have a law specifically for Non-playing-by-the-rules Tuluki "citizens" that
<do> such a thing and are
<found out>?
Quote from: Lizzie on November 08, 2013, 07:03:07 PM
BCW1, I'm sure what you're saying is true, theoretically, but it has nothing to do with my question. I'll put the question more succinctly:
If a citizen hires a non-citizen, to kill another citizen, outside of the City, away from the North - and that non-citizen succeeds, has a crime been committed in Tuluk?
The whole thing with patrons and agents and having to deal with red tape in order to get a "legitimate" contract implemented, left me wondering if this form of "non-sanctioned" contract is legitimate, non-legitimate, or a non-issue entirely.
If a crime has been committed, it would be the citizen who hires a non-citizen to do something to another citizen, away from the "jurisdiction" of the northern authority. Does the northern authority's authority, extend beyond the walls?
If some random red-stormer meets up with a citizen in Luir's, finds out about the citizen's headache against another citizen, and contracts out to do harm to that citizen next time that citizen rides south - has the first citizen committed a crime in Tuluk? I mean - he wasn't even IN Tuluk when he contracted the red-stormer to do something to the other citizen.
Again - my answer would be no, no crime has been committed, no slight against northern authority committed, nothing untoward been done. What happens outside the North, stays outside the North, and so on. But I'm not staff, which is why I asked.
A true Tuluki citizen wouldn't consider anything less than a proper Artisan for such at ask.
Like the vegetable said, at least as far as I'd understand it... you didn't commit a CRIME, per se (though, naturally, anything a Templar says is a crime, is a crime). What you DID, though, is went against what your PC knows to be YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS OF TRADITION (because to say otherwise, in fact, may be a crime), and so you went against what a proper Tuluki would do. Crime? No. But if a Templar finds out, I'm sure there will be some questions as to your faithfulness to His Glory Muk Utep.
Its like ASKING the IRS for an audit. Are you doing anything wrong? Nope. Does it matter? Nope.
I wasn't asking what's the IC right thing to do. I was asking if there's any particular policy on the subject, because it -does- come up, and it isn't rare or unusual.
Crime is based primarily on jurisdiction. In Zalanthas, that would be territory - or turf. If it happens on my turf, then it's a crime against my king. If it happens on your turf, it's not a crime against my king, because my king has no authority on your turf. In the real world, there is such a thing as extradition - but not all countries participate. I imagine that Allanak and Tuluk wouldn't be particularly cooperative if a Tuluki went to Allanak and committed a crime there, and was punished, and Tuluk said "Hey wait, he's a True-Inked Citizen, and that behavior is NOT illegal in the Ivory! You must bring him back!"
And if a Tuluki were hunting in the Tablelands, and a SLK elf killed him, I'm pretty sure the Tuluki templarate wouldn't work -too- hard to bring that SLK to justice for attending to their own justice, in their own territory.
And if another Tuluki who had issues with the hunter, tipped off the SLK about the hunter heading toward the Tablelands, why in the world would the Tuluki templarate give a shit about petty shit like that? Two commoners, squabbling, and one of them is -stupid- enough to go hunting in the tablelands - I'd probably be more pissed off at whoever reported this so-called "crime" and fine them for wasting my time on commoner nonsense.
However - if that Tuluki tried to arrange for the SLK to raid the hunter east of the span - then hell yeah, let's find out how much the Soh wants to pay for me to forget it ever happened. Or maybe if the hunter had some use to the Ivory, we'll send the current Legion crew out on a few extra patrols.
This is my perception of how things are. You all have your perception of how things are.
I'd rather find out if there's any actual policy - or if the staff is considering creating one, if there isn't already. Or if it's a case-by-case thing, and there isn't and shouldn't be any policy.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 08, 2013, 10:45:35 PM
I wasn't asking what's the IC right thing to do. I was asking if there's any particular policy on the subject, because it -does- come up, and it isn't rare or unusual.
Crime is based primarily on jurisdiction. In Zalanthas, that would be territory - or turf. If it happens on my turf, then it's a crime against my king. If it happens on your turf, it's not a crime against my king, because my king has no authority on your turf. In the real world, there is such a thing as extradition - but not all countries participate. I imagine that Allanak and Tuluk wouldn't be particularly cooperative if a Tuluki went to Allanak and committed a crime there, and was punished, and Tuluk said "Hey wait, he's a True-Inked Citizen, and that behavior is NOT illegal in the Ivory! You must bring him back!"
And if a Tuluki were hunting in the Tablelands, and a SLK elf killed him, I'm pretty sure the Tuluki templarate wouldn't work -too- hard to bring that SLK to justice for attending to their own justice, in their own territory.
And if another Tuluki who had issues with the hunter, tipped off the SLK about the hunter heading toward the Tablelands, why in the world would the Tuluki templarate give a shit about petty shit like that? Two commoners, squabbling, and one of them is -stupid- enough to go hunting in the tablelands - I'd probably be more pissed off at whoever reported this so-called "crime" and fine them for wasting my time on commoner nonsense.
However - if that Tuluki tried to arrange for the SLK to raid the hunter east of the span - then hell yeah, let's find out how much the Soh wants to pay for me to forget it ever happened. Or maybe if the hunter had some use to the Ivory, we'll send the current Legion crew out on a few extra patrols.
This is my perception of how things are. You all have your perception of how things are.
I'd rather find out if there's any actual policy - or if the staff is considering creating one, if there isn't already. Or if it's a case-by-case thing, and there isn't and shouldn't be any policy.
Please go to your local Templar and explain to them that the entire Known is not their turf and they're just letting the other city-state live for now to entertain them.
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 08, 2013, 11:00:15 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on November 08, 2013, 10:45:35 PM
I wasn't asking what's the IC right thing to do. I was asking if there's any particular policy on the subject, because it -does- come up, and it isn't rare or unusual.
...(snip)
This is my perception of how things are. You all have your perception of how things are.
I'd rather find out if there's any actual policy - or if the staff is considering creating one, if there isn't already. Or if it's a case-by-case thing, and there isn't and shouldn't be any policy.
Please go to your local Templar and explain to them that the entire Known is not their turf and they're just letting the other city-state live for now to entertain them.
This is my perception of how things are. You all have your perception of how things are.
I'd rather find out if there's any actual policy - or if the staff is considering creating one, if there isn't already. Or if it's a case-by-case thing, and there isn't and shouldn't be any policy.
Ok, last time I'm doing this epic posting thing for the year, I hope.
Quote from: Ouroboros on November 08, 2013, 04:59:23 PM
Nyr, I appreciate the time you took in responding. Some of it was clarifying, some of it was simply affirming.
I'll be honest here: the "sky is falling" schtick is getting a little old. I modified a chart slightly and moved it to the new website. It's not the end of the world, nor is it even the end of a role opportunity. I'll get to that later.
QuoteIn the end though it comes down to...
Quote from: Nyr on November 08, 2013, 09:24:01 AMThis isn't how Tuluk is going to be, nor is it how Tuluk should be.
I'll agree on the first part, because Tuluk's buck stops with you.
Correct to a large extent. The person that is the administrator of a region or a series of clans is there as the local and final authority on things that go on there, though all of that is also subject to Producer review. However, other staffers (especially including the ones on the Northern Team) contribute quite directly to these projects and their feedback and ideas have shaped how Tuluk is going.
QuoteWe'll have to simply agree to disagree on the second part, which shouldn't be hard since how something -should- be is entirely subjective to begin with.
Tuluk
is my current administrative project and focus, but since you're intent on derailing to nitpick minor changes related to more important system implementations, let's go there.
Yes, you can disagree on how you think the game (or an aspect of it) should be.
We are all passionate about the game. You are passionate about it as a player. I am passionate about it as a staffer. I work with several other passionate staff members that put in hours of volunteer effort to make the game run, and not just to make it run--effort made to make it better, to improve it beyond its current state. There are times that staffers disagree with each other. There are times that players disagree with each other. There are times that players and staffers disagree with each other. That kind of thing happens because we all care quite a bit about this hobby of ours!
At some point, though, things have to move forward, and someone is going to end up being either "wrong" or "disappointed" or "dissatisfied" with the decision, especially if two parties were at odds on an issue. When that happens on staff, we buck up and move on to the next thing, because we're on a team together and that's how we roll. When that happens between players and staff and staff decide to move forward with something players disagree with, the same decision has to be made: "well, I didn't get what I wanted. What do I do now?"
The best answer I can offer is that this is how life works sometimes. You do not get 100% of what you want.
"Oh, but Nyr, you are getting 100% of what you want, you're the dictator of Tuluk now. It's easy for you to say that since you're in the driver's seat here, isn't it?"
The changes we've made in the past few months to Tuluk have been made with some kind of consensus and plenty of discussion from staff. Before we rolled with the plan starting over a year ago, I had a different idea for how things would proceed and that was disagreed with, and we went with something else. No, I didn't get 100% of what I wanted. If I did or if we worked things that way, I would have steamrolled in everything exactly how I wanted those things to be. Over time and with feedback, we changed the implementation.
The majority of the changes we made did not involve player input because they were plot-based. Some did involve limited player input from time to time, however.
So in the end, how Tuluk
should be is (and has been) ultimately up to staff.
QuoteAt best, how Tuluk -should- be could be attributed to the vision of those who developed it in the first place.
That looks as though it proposes three ideas at once:
-that how an area of the game
should be never should change over time (the game should be essentially immutable)
-that Tuluk should always follow the vision of its original implementation
-that staff, when implementing something, implement it forever; the earlier you implement anything on staff, the better it is for whatever idea you had because no one will ever change it later
None of those things are true. The game has changed over time, sometimes in drastic ways. I don't think I need to list examples of major changes to areas of the game.
If Tuluk has an original vision, it has already changed at least four times in a major way by my count. Once during the events of the Cataclysm (wiped out half of the city and just kinda left it there--also, sometime around there, we get two orders of templars). Once during the Occupation (now the city is under Allanaki control). Once during post-occupation times ("subtlety" and partisanship and all that jazz). Once during the fief project (the Qynar/Striasiri thing).
Staff never implement something forever. Some things last a long time because they work, and they get changed very little. Some things last a long time because they get overlooked. Some things last a long time because changing it is more trouble as leaving it the way it is.
So no, how Tuluk
should be isn't attributed to any of the four visions of it in the past.
Quote
But you've long departed from that vision, in favor of your own, so let's not dwell too long on how things -should- be and simply leave it at how they -will- be. At least for now, since nothing's permanent or sacred.
Yes, I've departed from those
four visions of Tuluk. Not in favor of my own, necessarily, but I won't deny that my interests certainly have driven the direction that our staff-side discussions for Tuluk have gone. We're not exactly scrapping these old visions, but we are keeping an eye on how things could (and, yes, in our opinions, how they
should) change over time. We hope to aim at a more basic vision that is already in the documentation, one that has been hinted at and talked about overtly on the boards but not easily supported. Basically, if you don't think that Tuluk should be a tribal-influenced yet Orwellian-type city-state...then you're probably
not going to like the direction it is heading.
No, nothing is permanent or sacred. We've made that quite clear, I hope.
Quote
I had written more, but it would simply be wasting both our time as well as derail the thread further from it's topic. Such derails have become frequent from me as of late, but it isn't intentional. It just happens that each change you present also has some side-effect that might not be the topic of discussion, but still merits such. I'll try to refrain from future derails though, because in the end all the discussion in the world won't make you change your mind on something you've decided on.
The last thread, you took major issue with our decisions on coding and scripting these tattoos...and only relented when I explained we'd already considered your idea and tabled it in favor of something that made more RP sense. Yes, you disagreed with it, but we'd already done it. What did you want us to do, undo everything because
you had a problem with it? Not to put too fine a point on it, but
you are one player, and your opinions and criticisms are welcome...but
if they don't cause us to change our minds, it's not the end of the world because you don't like how something was implemented (or because you would've done it differently).
This thread, you've taken major issue with something that didn't exist. Or rather, it didn't exist as a role PCs
actually played, but if players had scrounged through the website and somehow found the caste chart, they might have thought they had some real opportunities to play a socially high-ranked independent artisan, something that is otherwise undocumented. I've already explained this one to some lengths, I think...but there's not really a place
anywhere in the game for someone to be an independent (
completely unaffiliated with a noble, templar, GMH, or even a small organization of independent people in some indie organization) and socially powerful
artisan (something barely--if at all--defined in the docs I just changed) in the city-states.
And you're right. All the discussion in the world won't make me change my mind on something I've decided on. If only there were a thread somewhere...somewhere, a thread that was a living and breathing example of "all of the discussion in 20 pages of posts" making me change my mind on something I'd decided on...
QuoteAt best, on the topics you do post for discussion, we can share some thoughts and hope some of it clicks with you.
If we are posting something for feedback or even for notification, we're happy to receive your opinions on it, but we are by no means obligated to implement all, some, or any of the things you think we should do. That doesn't mean we won't take your advice into consideration and do something with it, but it does mean that if we say no...uh...not sure how to put this nicely, but...get over it? We say no to lots of things.
QuoteWhatever isn't on your slate or in your vision though, clearly might as well not exist.
...we say no to lots of things. We say yes to some things. We do take in feedback. However, exaggerating a "no, sorry, that's not what we are planning to do here but thank you for your opinion/criticism" into "fuck your ideas and your ideas suck because I didn't think of it" is silly.
QuoteBest of luck, and I sincerely hope your vision pans out as you hope it will. Because at the end of the day, we're the ones stuck playing in it, not you.
Yep, we spend our free time working on a game, making changes to it that we'd have absolutely no desire to play through if we had the time to do so. ::)
Tone down the rhetoric, and lighten up about getting disagreed with...it's going to happen.
Quote from: Taven on November 08, 2013, 07:01:09 PM
Quote from: Nyr on November 08, 2013, 05:29:48 PM
Quote
2. Why is an "entry level employee" (merchant caste) having more standing then a Legions private? Does that mean that if an entry level merchant employee wants to do a contract on a private that doesn't involve physical harm, it's okay?
To the first: because GMHs have power.
To the second: perhaps, find out IC.
I don't mean to cause trouble, but I want to make sure I understand. You said that "entry level employee" covers bynner Runners in addition to GMH employees, which makes byn Runners have greater social standing then a Legions private. That seems really weird. Even if it was a Byn Trooper, it seems weird.
Wouldn't it make more sense for Bynner Runners and Troopers to be in the commoner column? Once you hit Sergeant or Lieutenant or whatever, I can see you having some pull, but it seems weird before then.
Maybe so. I was writing that post from my phone, but I did mention later on that we'd be making tweaks, that this was a quick and dirty update to get it on the main site.
Besides, if they can't legally have the private killed or harmed...does it really matter? The most you can do is annoy them to death? That's "some pull".
Quote
Artisan is a distinction within a caste, alright. I can see how an Apprentice bard might be just a commoner, as they just auditioned in and may have not learned anything yet. But shouldn't a Seeker, who makes art for a living, be described as an artisan?
There's lots of focus on having people in the right subcategory of something we just ported over...is it really that important? A Seeker is a Seeker, it's the same social rank whether it's an "artisan" or a commoner.
So the end result of any pull against ANY member of the Legion is this:
"Faithful Lord, there was a lot of... fecal matter thrown around in my apartment."
"... Somebody must not like you."
Next day...
"Faithful Lord, somebody used fecal matter to draw a picture of an inix kanking a person."
"You are really pissing people off."
That's basically the extent of what can be done to the Legion, right? You can't have them beaten, maimed, threatened... nothing physically harming, but you can mentally scar them by ruining their apartment.
Quote from: Lizzie on November 08, 2013, 05:03:01 PM
Is the someone offering the contract, breaking the laws of shadow artists?
QuoteTo request a contract, a Tuluki must meet privately with a templar.
Sounds like your someone is deliberately circumventing the shadow artist system in order to get someone killed, for reasons unknown. I'd try not to get caught doing that.
QuoteAre they even breaking any laws at all in Tuluk?
Not if they don't get caught...
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 08, 2013, 11:19:11 PM
So the end result of any pull against ANY member of the Legion is this:
"Faithful Lord, there was a lot of... fecal matter thrown around in my apartment."
"... Somebody must not like you."
Next day...
"Faithful Lord, somebody used fecal matter to draw a picture of an inix kanking a person."
"You are really pissing people off."
That's basically the extent of what can be done to the Legion, right? You can't have them beaten, maimed, threatened... nothing physically harming, but you can mentally scar them by ruining their apartment.
One can always just break the law and kill them. A skilled shadow artist could possibly pull this off without getting caught, but finding one willing to break the law and loyal enough might not be as easy.
Perhaps the Artisan caste could be folded in with Commoners?
I understand some of Ouroboros' concerns here, to be honest. I see Tuluk historically as having had a theme of appreciation of beauty, at least as a veneer over what lies beneath, and there being a notion that art in some measure outweighed mere politics; the bardic circles get to retain a certain neutrality because their art, and capacity to move the emotions of the citizenry through it, is respected by all parties.
The Artisan caste made sense in that context. It wasn't meant for workaday crafters, however skilled, but for those who were considered artists. Bards were a well fleshed out example of such artists. The existence of other such artists was left implied. Also, the notion that theft or killing could be art and the perpetrator respected rather than punished rested heavily on the general Tuluki respect for art.
I think perhaps some of the reason that artists in general were not more heavily fleshed out was the difficulty in reconciling them with Kadius. The existence of an organisation which employs most of the top decorative artisans was somewhat at odds with a model in which such artists were put on a pedestal; it was unclear how that would work, and whether it would give Kadius a gigantic cultural weight to throw around.
Maybe the theme needs re-examined. It seems hard though to justify a caste for artists which includes shadow artists, who're merely the fringe beneficiaries of a wider love for art, and not, for instance, the sculptors of public artworks. I feel some rearrangement may be necessary to have things make sense.
I've gone over the chart as well as the hierarchy doc to identify current areas of confusion as it has come up again. I made the following changes to the hierarchy doc:
- If a subcategory or sub-caste or division or whatever was called "caste" before, it has been changed to "sub-caste" to reduce confusion over what a caste is.
- The section for Artisans now reads differently, explaining what Tuluki-specific artisans are and why that is specific to its own sub-caste. There's no more "elite of the other two sub-castes" in the wording.
I plan to also move all bardic folks to the artisan category to be with their higher-ranked bard buddies. This will take longer to do, though, so it's not done yet. I understand what was being done with it before, but I think it has contributed to more confusion than not.
Now that that is done, points of clarification:
There are only four castes.
Templar
Noble
Commoner
Slave
The artisan sub-caste (still might change the name of that, but it fits okay) now only references the two Tuluki-specific professions (shadow artists and bards of poets' circle). Material artisans/crafters/whatnot of any level (being a world-wide thing, not something specific to Tuluk) would have social rank based on whatever organization they are a part of or affiliated with.
Each sub-caste is (for the most part) a division meant to categorize the people in that group. It is not an actual caste. The castes that matter in caste division are the four castes above.
Maybe that will make more sense? I'll make more changes as I have time but I don't have any more right now to make changes. I'll update later.
At the end of the day, whether GMH Employee Amos has a higher social standing than Winrothol Servant Talia or Byn Sergeant Malik is going to come down to the IC opinion of a PC templar anyway, right? Social standing is full of nuance: who is richer, more popular, has more important friends, is on better terms with the law, etc. I hope we don't all start taking the caste chart too literally to the point we don't leave room for grey areas and opinions, because that'd be a shame.
Quote from: Jherlen on November 09, 2013, 01:22:48 PM
At the end of the day, whether GMH Employee Amos has a higher social standing than Winrothol Servant Talia or Byn Sergeant Malik is going to come down to the IC opinion of a PC templar anyway, right? Social standing is full of nuance: who is richer, more popular, has more important friends, is on better terms with the law, etc. I hope we don't all start taking the caste chart too literally to the point we don't leave room for grey areas and opinions, because that'd be a shame.
Co-rrect. Plenty of times my commoner X has gotten out of shit all because of favor.
Quote from: Nyr on November 09, 2013, 12:40:46 PM
Maybe that will make more sense?
I think it's moving in a good direction. I do wonder if the commonalities between Shadow Artists and Bards, beyond them being Tuluk-specific, are sufficient to lump them into the same subcaste, but I think both have reasons to be treated as special cases - the influence of the Circles in one case and the closeness to the templarate in the other.
Broadly, I'd like to voice strong support for the way this has been carried out start to finish. Normally when I post it's to question some aspect I'm not sure I'm happy with, or propound an opinion. I feel concerned about coming across as critical.
I think that the way this has been introduced, with an initial version put out to be picked at, and player worries then listened to and addressed, has been excellent. I very much appreciate the time and effort that's being put into this and feel that it's going to result in a better system and one players are happier with. Thanks for doing it this way.
Personal opinion here:
I think you're taking the idea of "independent artist" too seriously, Ouroboros. Artistry of that nature is handled by the Bardic Circle to begin with, and the last time I checked, there were documents stating how if a bard of the Circle caught wind of a non-affiliated bard doing anything like that, they would make sure said non-affiliated bard had a 'bad day'.
Being a bard does not restrict you to song and dance. In fact, they have "arcs of learning" which range from swordplay to singing and dancing. That said, it does not have 'painting' or 'statue making'. (Which I personally think it should.)
Quote from: http://old.armageddon.org/general/music/bards.htmlArcs of Learning
Bards achieve the status of Master Bard by mastering what are called the Arcs of Learning. Each Arc represents a basic area of knowledge, and a Master Bard will be skilled in each of the following:
Arc of Music: To master the Arc of Music, a bard must be able to play and create a musical instrument from each of the three major types: percussion, wind, and stringed.
Arc of Song: To master the Arc of Song, a bard must know the standard repertoire of songs, as well as being able to compose an impromptu song on any topic when challenged to do so.
Arc of Words: To master the Arc of Words, a bard must know the standard repertoire of stories, from the humorous to the historical, as well as being able to compose such. They must also have mastered the intricacies of Tuluki ettiquette, the gentle art of diplomacy, and speak at least one language beyond sirihish fluently.
Arc of Acting: To master the Arc of Acting, a bard must know the basics of the theater: performing, costuming, mimicry, make-up, and crowd-control. Traditionally, a bard must have performed a central role in at least one major theatrical performance.
Arc of Lore: To master the Arc of Lore, a bard must know both the history and geography of Zalanthas thoroughly, as well as demonstrate in-depth knowledge of at least one other area of specialized learning, such as herb-lore, a crafting skill, animal-training, etc.
Arc of Blades: To master the Arc of Blades, a bard must demonstrate her or himself competent with at least one weapon.
Quote from: Nyr on November 09, 2013, 12:40:46 PMEach sub-caste is (for the most part) a division meant to categorize the people in that group. It is not an actual caste. The castes that matter in caste division are the four castes above. Maybe that will make more sense? I'll make more changes as I have time but I don't have any more right now to make changes. I'll update later.
What might be throwing off the sense of equality among sub-castes within a caste is the fact that in the Faithful caste, the Exalted sub-caste is socially superior to the Templar sub-caste. Consolidating those two into one, especially since there's no actual overlap in rank between them (Precentor > Illuminated), might drive the point home about all Commoner sub-castes being equal. Changing the name of the Commoner caste or sub-caste so that it's not the same, might also simplify complications. Just a suggestion, as personally it doesn't bother me much.
Quote from: bcw81 on November 09, 2013, 05:12:51 PMI think you're taking the idea of "independent artist" too seriously, Ouroboros.
Possibly, sure. Being one myself probably lends its bias. Quirk however seemed to understand what my real issue is, and it has more to do with the image of Tuluk and less to do with what a PC's score lists under clan. I've discussed it and length already though, Nyr has weighed in, and I don't think it's productive for me to continue. I'll summarize it this way though and perhaps it'll make sense:
My concern is less about the value of an independent artist and more about the value of an artist independently. Hope that helps.
Quote from: bcw81 on November 09, 2013, 05:12:51 PMArtistry of that nature is handled by the Bardic Circle to begin with, and the last time I checked, there were documents stating how if a bard of the Circle caught wind of a non-affiliated bard doing anything like that, they would make sure said non-affiliated bard had a 'bad day'. Being a bard does not restrict you to song and dance. In fact, they have "arcs of learning" which range from swordplay to singing and dancing. That said, it does not have 'painting' or 'statue making'. (Which I personally think it should.)
No, artistry of that nature isn't handled by the Bardic Circle, even if individual bards have sometimes dabbled in it. They do certainly have arcs of learning, but they revolve around aspects of Culture and Performing Arts, not Art. Art refers specifically to visual arts, whereas the Arts as a term encompass all creative endeavors (including literary arts and performance arts, which the Bards focus on). You might think the Bardic Circle should dominate art as well, others might disagree (as I would), but that's irrelevant to what they actually do focus on. If this -was- to be handled through the Bardic Circle, then it would at the very least warrant the addition of a new circle dedicated to visual arts alone, without forcing them to have to sing and dance as well just to be recognized as painters. But that would make for a rather odd Circle.
This might also help...
Quote from: WikiAn artisan or artizan (from French: artisan, Italian: artigiano) or craftsman (craftsperson) is a skilled manual worker who makes items that may be functional or strictly decorative, including furniture, sculpture, clothing, jewellery, household items and tools or even machines such as the handmade devices of a watchmaker. Artisans practice a craft and may through experience and aptitude reach the expressive levels of an artist.
Emphasis mine. That last line, for me, alludes to the transition a common crafter to an accomplished artist. The difference between someone that sings well when they're drunk at the Tembo, and a Master Bard of the Circle. That's what I felt the documentation supported prior to it's change, and that's what I'm mourning now. But as Nyr said, the sky isn't falling. And it's a loss that few will even notice, much less care about.
Quote from: Nyr on November 09, 2013, 12:40:46 PMEach sub-caste is (for the most part) a division meant to categorize the people in that group. It is not an actual caste. The castes that matter in caste division are the four castes above.
I like how things are changing based on feedback! :)
I was curious on how a PC would ICly address the sub-caste distinctions. Would they call them "subcastes", or what would they do to describe the relative sub-rankings (for example, in a conversation)?
Quote from: Quirk on November 09, 2013, 02:42:31 PM
I think that the way this has been introduced, with an initial version put out to be picked at, and player worries then listened to and addressed, has been excellent. I very much appreciate the time and effort that's being put into this and feel that it's going to result in a better system and one players are happier with. Thanks for doing it this way.
I agree 1000%.
In the future, please continue this habit. It isn't easy, I am sure, with all of the strong-minded people in our community, but I assure you that we appreciate it. So when it is feasible, please continue to offer us this level of participation in the creation of the systems that we will be playing in in the future of our magnificent game.
I'm pleased with the direction this is taking, and would just like to thank Nyr and the other staff involved for their hard work.
As promised, I've updated the caste chart based on feedback.
Tuluki Caste Structure (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20Caste%20Structure)
I have also made changes to the Hierarchy document, as it had not been touched other than the historical changes I made earlier this year.
Tuluki Social Hierarchy (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20Social%20Hierarchy)
Changes:
- Removed the Exalted sub-caste from the Structure page as the distinction was implied rather than important in any way. If you run into a Sun King, High Precentor, Inquisitor, or Precentor, you may feel free to shit your pants without concerning yourself about their sub-caste and whether it is a true distinction of their ranking. I left the Exalted subheading for those individuals on the Hierarchy page, but updated it as well.
- Updated the end of the Hlum subheading on the Hierarchy page because it amused me.
- Changed the "Artisan" sub-caste to "Artist."
- Changed formatting on the "Merchant" subheading on the Hierarchy page, and elaborated on it a little more.
- Added Legions subheading on the Hierarchy page. This never existed on the old caste chart page.
- Changed the "Commoner" sub-caste to "Other Commoners" to reduce confusion. If you're in the "Common Caste," that's synonymous with being a Commoner.
- Made other formatting changes to the Hierarchy page.
- Added notes to the Structure page explaining how social status worked, particularly with partisans.
Some replies:
Quote from: Taven on November 10, 2013, 12:43:19 AM
I was curious on how a PC would ICly address the sub-caste distinctions. Would they call them "subcastes", or what would they do to describe the relative sub-rankings (for example, in a conversation)?
They wouldn't. These distinctions don't matter. It's there for you (the player) to get a general idea of where someone is within a caste compared to another caste.
Historically speaking, they might have mattered before, but that chart wasn't on the main website until last week. The old chart was referenced from time to time but it was hardly supported in that manner. Better to bring it to the standards that exist now and leave it that way, in my view.
Quote from: Ouroboros on November 09, 2013, 07:06:41 PM
Possibly, sure. Being one myself probably lends its bias. Quirk however seemed to understand what my real issue is, and it has more to do with the image of Tuluk and less to do with what a PC's score lists under clan. I've discussed it and length already though, Nyr has weighed in, and I don't think it's productive for me to continue. I'll summarize it this way though and perhaps it'll make sense: My concern is less about the value of an independent artist and more about the value of an artist independently. Hope that helps.
Not to beat the dead horse too much more, but we haven't removed art from Tuluk; your concern is invalid.
Quote
No, artistry of that nature isn't handled by the Bardic Circle, even if individual bards have sometimes dabbled in it. They do certainly have arcs of learning, but they revolve around aspects of Culture and Performing Arts, not Art. Art refers specifically to visual arts, whereas the Arts as a term encompass all creative endeavors (including literary arts and performance arts, which the Bards focus on). You might think the Bardic Circle should dominate art as well, others might disagree (as I would), but that's irrelevant to what they actually do focus on. If this -was- to be handled through the Bardic Circle, then it would at the very least warrant the addition of a new circle dedicated to visual arts alone, without forcing them to have to sing and dance as well just to be recognized as painters. But that would make for a rather odd Circle.
If you want to create paintings and sculpt things, find someone that wants that done and work for them or engage in a partisanship agreement with them.
Quote
This might also help...
Quote from: WikiAn artisan or artizan (from French: artisan, Italian: artigiano) or craftsman (craftsperson) is a skilled manual worker who makes items that may be functional or strictly decorative, including furniture, sculpture, clothing, jewellery, household items and tools or even machines such as the handmade devices of a watchmaker. Artisans practice a craft and may through experience and aptitude reach the expressive levels of an artist.
Emphasis mine. That last line, for me, alludes to the transition a common crafter to an accomplished artist. The difference between someone that sings well when they're drunk at the Tembo, and a Master Bard of the Circle. That's what I felt the documentation supported prior to it's change, and that's what I'm mourning now. But as Nyr said, the sky isn't falling. And it's a loss that few will even notice, much less care about.
The documentation supported that prior to the change and supports it now. You're mourning something that hasn't died. You can be a skilled manual worked who makes things that may be...blah blah blah...period. You just won't (or are incredibly unlikely to) get any recognition in Tuluk for it if you're doing it on your own without support from a patron that wants it or from an employer that wants it. If you didn't get there by dint of your birth, your affiliation, your employment, or partisanship, you're an independent commoner. You're skilled, sure--you can "make everything" and you have "the expressive levels of an artist" and you can even probably submit unique mastercrafts to that effect. However, you're still just an independent commoner. You have social status, it is just the bottom of the barrel. The stonecrafting/whatevers of the Akai Sjir have more status than you because their tribe would probably show up somewhere in that structure. The sculptors of Kadius have more status than you because they are part of a GMH. An anonymous painter partisan of Negean has more social status than you because they hitched their wagon to a Negean noble like a smart Tuluki and are getting bank for it. A shitty southern crafter working for Salarr making flint arrowheads might even have more social status than you because they work for Salarr.
This was never about removing art and artwork or "artisans" or changing the definition of what that means. It was a change on a chart and then a change in the page that explained what that chart meant in more detail.
I'm no art history major, but as I understand it even in the real world, many of the famous artists/composers/sculptors/etc of old had a patron of some sort that paid their bills while they produced their art. I can see that being even more of a necessity in Zalanthas, as the "starving artist" probably doesn't live very long otherwise. PCwise, a good artist who's independent and has no patron is probably going to find him/herself quickly inundated with offers for patronship, which they'd probably be foolish to decline. So where's the problem?
This is derailing a Shadow Artist thread, but maybe what we need is a Tuluki Art document, detailing how artists are viewed and admired, and what sort of artistic trends are seen in Tuluk to help guide roleplay. And while we're at it, we could make one for Allanak too! Believe it or not, 'nakkis also like art. As long as it has blood on it.
+1 for the Tuluki Art doc
Hey, Nyr. Just wondering if there is any added incentive to actually make use of the system.
From my experience. Leadership players tend to avoid making very many big moves, especially in the tuluki environment. And moreover have a tendency to sit on their skilled assassins and end up doing nothing with them for fear of losing them, or whatever.
I'm really a terrible reference for Tuluki-related things. But as to the incentive posted above, possibly some marker those of a higher caste might carry that denotes how many times they have successfully used a shadow artist?
Maybe that defeats the purpose. But since it wouldn't signify on whom, or for what, who knows?
Kind of like those girls and guys in high school with them wristbands.....
The old system was used, though arguably not often. I don't think it was because of a fear of losing assassins but there was a reluctance to go directly to assassination for situations that didn't really call for it. So you were stuck trying to use thieves and thugs in creative ways and risk the ire of the law for operations that would be considered illegal in the "thieves and assassins only" system. Now there is no fear and should be no reluctance because it is legal to deal with a situation in many non-lethal ways.
The incentive is essentially that there is no disincentive. But it will take players coming to grips with the idea that not every shadow artist has to be an assassin (or only an assassin), and embracing the various forms of thuggery that are now legal by playing such artists or hiring them more often, or (as commoners) using affiliation and the political atmosphere creatively to get what they want. It creates a whole new element to skull duggery in Tuluk and just requires players to participate.
I'm sort of curious of this one fact, and I suppose it affected the old system too, but it's always weighed on my mind.
Say Assassin Talia goes and offs mark Amos. She does it silently, and everyone's happy.
Would Amos' best friend and sometimes lover Malik begrudge the assassin or the person who hired the mark? I mean, sure, this is definitely a character by character question, but the standard Tulukie would have had either one or the other answer engraved in their head from a young age. I'd imagine they'd begrudge the actual contractee, not the contractor, but that's just my take.
Quote from: bcw81 on November 11, 2013, 10:50:04 PM
I'm sort of curious of this one fact, and I suppose it affected the old system too, but it's always weighed on my mind.
Say Assassin Talia goes and offs mark Amos. She does it silently, and everyone's happy.
Would Amos' best friend and sometimes lover Malik begrudge the assassin or the person who hired the mark? I mean, sure, this is definitely a character by character question, but the standard Tulukie would have had either one or the other answer engraved in their head from a young age. I'd imagine they'd begrudge the actual contractee, not the contractor, but that's just my take.
I don't know if there should be general "everyone in Tuluk" feels this way. Completely character dependent. Some I've had wouldn't care, others would take out contracts on the contractor as well as the artist, the artist's mate, their songbird and a partridge in a pear tree.
Begrudge at will, according to your feelings place.
Quote from: Nyr on November 11, 2013, 03:39:53 PM
As promised, I've updated the caste chart based on feedback.
Tuluki Caste Structure (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20Caste%20Structure)
I have also made changes to the Hierarchy document, as it had not been touched other than the historical changes I made earlier this year.
Tuluki Social Hierarchy (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20Social%20Hierarchy)
Neat, looking good!
QuoteQuote from: Taven on November 10, 2013, 12:43:19 AM
I was curious on how a PC would ICly address the sub-caste distinctions. Would they call them "subcastes", or what would they do to describe the relative sub-rankings (for example, in a conversation)?
They wouldn't. These distinctions don't matter. It's there for you (the player) to get a general idea of where someone is within a caste compared to another caste.
Historically speaking, they might have mattered before, but that chart wasn't on the main website until last week. The old chart was referenced from time to time but it was hardly supported in that manner. Better to bring it to the standards that exist now and leave it that way, in my view.
That's what I thought. So, a conversation wouldn't have subcaste, it would just have that the person would be more or less important to you and why... It might be helpful to add a bulletpoint below on the chart that says that subcaste is not an IC concept, as I can easily imagine newbies or people who have not read this thread using it ICly and thinking that is okay.
Quote from: ShaLeah on November 11, 2013, 11:15:16 PM
Quote from: bcw81 on November 11, 2013, 10:50:04 PM
I'm sort of curious of this one fact, and I suppose it affected the old system too, but it's always weighed on my mind.
Say Assassin Talia goes and offs mark Amos. She does it silently, and everyone's happy.
Would Amos' best friend and sometimes lover Malik begrudge the assassin or the person who hired the mark? I mean, sure, this is definitely a character by character question, but the standard Tulukie would have had either one or the other answer engraved in their head from a young age. I'd imagine they'd begrudge the actual contractee, not the contractor, but that's just my take.
I don't know if there should be general "everyone in Tuluk" feels this way. Completely character dependent. Some I've had wouldn't care, others would take out contracts on the contractor as well as the artist, the artist's mate, their songbird and a partridge in a pear tree.
Begrudge at will, according to your feelings place.
I think that if the assassin did it silently and secretly, Malik probably would not know it was Talia anyway.
If Malik did know, I think that it might be up for personal interpretation. However, there are a LOT of shadow artists in Tuluk (NPCs and vNPCs also). Any of them could have gotten the job. Talia ended up with it, but that didn't mean she had anything against Amos. Would Malik know and appreciate that, or hate everyone who had anything to do with it?
Even if Malik did hate Talia, assuming she has accomplished a couple of jobs and is an Apprentice Shadow Artist, she is higher then everyone except other artsy people (bards and Shadow artists of equal or higher rank) and the Chosen and Faithful. Malik won't be easily be able to target her anyway, because even if he decides to have a grudge, the way social standing is set up, Talia is considered to be pretty rad.
Quote from: Taven on November 12, 2013, 12:54:29 AM
That's what I thought. So, a conversation wouldn't have subcaste, it would just have that the person would be more or less important to you and why... It might be helpful to add a bulletpoint below on the chart that says that subcaste is not an IC concept, as I can easily imagine newbies or people who have not read this thread using it ICly and thinking that is okay.
That bullet point is already there in the Hierarchy page but I can add it as a note for the chart.
Quote from: bcw81 on November 11, 2013, 10:50:04 PM
I'm sort of curious of this one fact, and I suppose it affected the old system too, but it's always weighed on my mind.
Say Assassin Talia goes and offs mark Amos. She does it silently, and everyone's happy.
Would Amos' best friend and sometimes lover Malik begrudge the assassin or the person who hired the mark? I mean, sure, this is definitely a character by character question, but the standard Tulukie would have had either one or the other answer engraved in their head from a young age. I'd imagine they'd begrudge the actual contractee, not the contractor, but that's just my take.
I agree, I'd say that there'd be more blame put on the contractor and none if any on the assassin. The assassin is just a person doing their job, they have little to no control over who or what the target may be. In a society like Tuluk, where the populace might think of themselves as a "builder" or "creator" culture, I think contractee would probably view an assassin as a tool that they are using to accomplish a task for the greater good (or at least that's what they might tell themselves). The assassin, not caring (or trying not to care) who the mark is, is just going to focus on the when, where and how, not the who or the why. I would think that most people would understand this. Some might still get upset and blame anyone and everyone (assassins included), especially since emotions aren't rational.
Is there a possibility to "specialize" further as a Shadow Artist?
For example, let's say that I want to be a Shadow Artist but I'm a ranger/warrior/etc.. Could I tell the Templar that I would prefer to receive targets that are known to also often leave the walls?
I haven't read this whole thread, so please forgive me if this was discussed, but what happens if you catch an artist in the act? Do you torture them? For what? So they tell you who assigned them the contract? Now you have the name of a Templar. What's the play?
Can you go to said Templar and offer a reverse contract on the person who contracted against you? Would you have to know who it was, or could you just say you'd like to flip a (hurt/kill/shame) contract against you, and the Templar tells you the price? (And you're as surprised as everyone else when your neighbor Malik winds up dead)
Now what if the person who contracted on you was higher ranking than you are?
What's the practical way to get out of this long term, other than just trying to catch every artist they send?
Quote from: James de Monet on November 12, 2013, 04:59:59 PM
I haven't read this whole thread, so please forgive me if this was discussed, but what happens if you catch an artist in the act? Do you torture them? For what? So they tell you who assigned them the contract? Now you have the name of a Templar. What's the play?
A contract could well include that a shadow artist needs to be caught. If you did torture them, that'd be breaking Tuluki law.
QuoteCan you go to said Templar and offer a reverse contract on the person who contracted against you? Would you have to know who it was, or could you just say you'd like to flip a (hurt/kill/shame) contract against you, and the Templar tells you the price? (And you're as surprised as everyone else when your neighbor Malik winds up dead)
I don't think you can do that, because contracts are supposed to be completely anonymous. The way the system is designed is that the person indirectly hiring the shadow artist is never known or at risk. Of course, you can make an educated guess as to who it is, and target whoever that person may be (though things may have been arranged so that it only looks like them, who knows).
QuoteNow what if the person who contracted on you was higher ranking than you are?
What's the practical way to get out of this long term, other than just trying to catch every artist they send?
If the person acting against you is higher rank, you need to speak to someone who is that person's rank equal or above and have them do a contract on your behalf. Will they be willing to do so? That depends on who you ask, and what you offer.
Long-term, I think you can keep sending or receiving shadow-artist things back and forth until someone dies or decides that they don't want to keep doing it.
Quote from: Malken on November 12, 2013, 04:56:42 PM
Is there a possibility to "specialize" further as a Shadow Artist?
For example, let's say that I want to be a Shadow Artist but I'm a ranger/warrior/etc.. Could I tell the Templar that I would prefer to receive targets that are known to also often leave the walls?
I imagine that is covered under the following:
Quote from: Shadow Artist FAQ
How do I become a shadow artist?
Meet with a templar so that you can register with them in private. Let them know who you are and what your areas of specialty are. This is important, as the templarate will be giving you jobs that are appropriate for your talents as well as your skill. This registration comes in the form of a tattoo that signifies that you are a shadow artist. Along with the tattoo comes the first restriction: you are only to fulfill contracts, you do not request them yourself.
Quote from: Nyr on November 12, 2013, 01:34:39 PM
Quote from: Taven on November 12, 2013, 12:54:29 AM
That's what I thought. So, a conversation wouldn't have subcaste, it would just have that the person would be more or less important to you and why... It might be helpful to add a bulletpoint below on the chart that says that subcaste is not an IC concept, as I can easily imagine newbies or people who have not read this thread using it ICly and thinking that is okay.
That bullet point is already there in the Hierarchy page but I can add it as a note for the chart.
That would be wonderful, thank you!
Quote
Tuluk is known to its people as a city of tradition, a city of order, and a city of law.
Thanks staff. I think making sure this is prominent in Tuluk is important.