First time poster, been playing on and off for a few months, and was pondering something while I wait for my account notes. I have a really, really difficult time playing 'bad' characters. I don't consider myself a horrid roleplayer, and I absolutely HATE cliched characters. But, that said, in this world, the norm is to be racist (even if its justified to be suspicious around elves), self-centered (which is vital for survival) and rarely trust anyone. Whenever I play tabletop games, my 'villains' tend to take the form of well-intentioned extremists, or good people with nothing left to lose. If I'm GMing, I'm fond of taking a character my party screwed over, or left for dead, and having him come back as the final villain, an evil they created. Point is, even my 'evil' characters have strands of good in them. Its what makes them human. But I have a huge amount of difficulty just playing the objectively terrible person. The thug. The thief who DOESN'T have a family to feed or gives his proceeds to the poor. I feel genuinely bad when my Arm recruit is told to practice her unarmed skills on random breeds. Even though I know my character would feel just fine about that, because in her view, they probably deserve it. Don't get me wrong though. I love this world and its lore, and the people who kick my half-elf out of the tavern make it worth playing. But, when I see that beggar, I want to wish all and have it animated so I can give it my waterskin. I couldn't play a thief, because I couldn't bring myself to steal from the hard-working merchant as easily as the corrupt noble. Its the one aspect of roleplay I have trouble separating from myself. Anyone else have that problem?
Simply, yes.
I have a feeling like that as well. But, them, Armageddon is Dark Fantasy. We can be as good as we want. It just won't change anything.
Nope.
Nope, bad guys are easy for me...good guys only slightly harder.
The key to playing bad guys is remembering that they don't (generally) think of themselves that way. They have reasons to do what they do that seem justified to them. Choose to think bad thoughts about breeds and beggars and abusing them will come much more naturally.
RPing "bad" comes naturally to me.
I remember there was a huge thread about this a while back....
Anyhow, it would probably help to re-define your personal idea of what a"bad guy" is; especially when you're coming from tabletops to a world like Zalanthas, where putting the boots to a breed just because the opportunity is there is pretty much the norm.
I tend to replace the word "villain" entirely with "shithead" when it comes to Armageddon and archetypes. The defiler that wants to burn Tuluk to the ground, that's a villain. The guy that knocks you out and steals your boots because he likes the way they shine is just an asshole.
I guess you just have to harden yourself and get greedy, if you wanna play a shithead. :p
Just isn't a bad guy in me, except the one that keeps thinking throw dung templar east sounds like it'd be fun. That said, on other games, non-RP enforced, I have made a pretty decent villain it seems, although I didn't think of myself as one at the time, mauling people with a pickaxe because my boss said "Go get that fucker!" might have been slightly villainous I guess, but once I left a particular group, often after murdering someone I'd get a page like: "How do I join?" from the victim shortly afterwards.
Maybe it helped that I started returning the loot.
Before I invested a lot of time in getting to know people, however, I would often encounter roving gank-squads looking specifically for me, and why they thought two wasn't enough to take down an abomination in high heels and a stinky loincloth carrying a big hammer is beyond me, but while it caused me to rage it was also kind of flattering.
Here, I just can't relate to many of the other characters.
My villians all fail. I made an assassin once. Found a mentor and a sponsor. They set me up with a position where I could keep an eye on someone. My assassin spent their life as a merchant. I even had a hard time killing npcs without good cause.
I have always had this problem.
I have never really played the extreme racists, or the "bad" guy. I have sought revenge, murdered because it was the best option, stolen because I had too, or piled on the racism because it was the right way to act around the group I was with to be accepted, but I've never gone out of my way to do these things. I think this is perfectly fine in the scope of things because we have all types of people. Some are going to be more hateful towards elves, and others are going to dislike them and not trust them, but not openly try to kill/beat their faces in every time they see one. We're going to have murdering thugs who could care less about someone's life and we're going to have people who are more lenient to forgive and value other lives as much as their own.
I have come to the conclusion that my next character is going to be a dwarf(YOLO!). This dwarf is going to have a specific backstory, and a focus that makes it so I will be forced to play a certain way and lean towards the "bad" side of things. The dwarf won't think it as being bad. They are just following their destined path in life and achieving their goal. I feel like this will be a great opportunity to force myself to jump headfirst into a different type of character and not really have the option to be nice.
It is much easier with humans to fall into the nice category since they have less restrictions on their role play.
Quote from: AreteX on June 05, 2013, 07:37:00 AM
It is much easier with humans to fall into the nice category since they have less restrictions on their role play.
I don't think this is necessarily the case... There seems to be a lot of pressure on humans to be jerkwads and a lot of the time they cave in and do it. Then you see them behind closed doors or away from prying eyes and it's a complete 180. I guess they're nice on the inside, but in their desire to one-up one another to fit in, things can get out of hand quite quickly, and it's difficult to work your way out of that if you're on the receiving end. Not that I'm complaining mind you, I just couldn't play that way.
My characters routinely find themselves thinking, there's no way that character meant that, it's just a vicious cycle they enforce in groups, and the longer it sticks around the worse it seems to get... To stay alive you practically have to leave a place for a while and come back when everyone is done fistbumping over how they showed that guy, and try again... Maybe you're getting somewhere with people this time, maybe they're interested in a story you're telling or something... Maybe they laughed at a joke you made... Then that one extremist comes back in and it's back to the crazy stuff again. Granted, sometimes you can even win those over, too, it's just hard when their interaction consists of (see non-human, make nasty comment, walk away) or (see non-human, escalate things, try to get non-human murdered), and the best option is to just isolate yourself again.
If I made a human, everyone would call him an elf-stump-breed-gick lover (whether it's true or not, one kind act, speaking politely in defense of, or even just talking to any one of these groups I have seen turn into all kinds of wild accusations) and eventually try to kill him. I feel more comfortable playing a character who is NOT human, because they are not necessarily obligated to be jerks and can find ways to excuse their characters (choose a focus that excuses it, breeds just want to be accepted (but then you have to react oddly to it) elves are only nice when they're looking to fleece you or stab you and they're ALWAYS trying to do this). This is likely not the case with elves, from what I've read, but I don't see many of them where my characters spend most of their time, and when I do they don't usually show up again, so I have no example to go by.
I'm comfortable with villainy.
Quote from: Asche on June 05, 2013, 02:46:26 AM
First time poster, been playing on and off for a few months, and was pondering something while I wait for my account notes. I have a really, really difficult time playing 'bad' characters. I don't consider myself a horrid roleplayer, and I absolutely HATE cliched characters. But, that said, in this world, the norm is to be racist (even if its justified to be suspicious around elves), self-centered (which is vital for survival) and rarely trust anyone. Whenever I play tabletop games, my 'villains' tend to take the form of well-intentioned extremists, or good people with nothing left to lose. If I'm GMing, I'm fond of taking a character my party screwed over, or left for dead, and having him come back as the final villain, an evil they created. Point is, even my 'evil' characters have strands of good in them. Its what makes them human. But I have a huge amount of difficulty just playing the objectively terrible person. The thug. The thief who DOESN'T have a family to feed or gives his proceeds to the poor. I feel genuinely bad when my Arm recruit is told to practice her unarmed skills on random breeds. Even though I know my character would feel just fine about that, because in her view, they probably deserve it. Don't get me wrong though. I love this world and its lore, and the people who kick my half-elf out of the tavern make it worth playing. But, when I see that beggar, I want to wish all and have it animated so I can give it my waterskin. I couldn't play a thief, because I couldn't bring myself to steal from the hard-working merchant as easily as the corrupt noble. Its the one aspect of roleplay I have trouble separating from myself. Anyone else have that problem?
hate to say it, but you seem to actually like the cliched characters. Well-intentioned extremists, good people with nothing left to lose, thieves who feed their families. None of those are particularly original. What you have problem with is value dissonance. Samurai used to test their new blades on random peasants (unless I'm totally wrong). I don't see why wouldn't your recruit kill a breed to show his superior that he can handle a blade. Or think of elves, they would totally fuck you over in any possible way because they don't consider you a being with any rights or feelings. Even humans in our world are capable of displaying incredible stupidity and malice, imagine what they're like in a place like Zalanthas. Everyone has a "family to feed", that shit don't fly anymore. Good people, or people with a shred of morality that isn't based on fear of their god king or their tribal traditions should be extreemely rare.
that said, I also have trouble doing 'what needs to be done', but I'm working on that. But that is why we are the PCs, the ends of the bell curve of Zalanthas. We can share water with the horde of beggars :3
I find morality to be pretty relative on Armageddon.
A pc I've considered to be a "good guy" is a horrendous villian from other perspectives.
I don't think there is a lot of opportunity for most characters to be villains in the sense that they are 100% "evil". In a world like Zalanthas, singling yourself out as needing killing ASAP by randomly and unscrupulously victimizing people seems contrary to the whole survival aspect of the game. I suppose a character could be very evil if they cannot be punished easily (re. templars, nobles, and such) or if they do not care about survival (they are insane or have other priorities that take precedence).
What seems more common in this MUD are characters that are anti-heroes (not necessarily in the classical sense, where the anti-hero is a protagonist without "heroic qualities", but just someone with good intentions for themselves or others, and is willing to do things that are not good to get them). These characters can sometimes be cliches but cliches are not necessarily bad if we put our own original twist on them. I think that is what people are talking about when they say that the best way to play a bad character is to play a character that can always justify what he or she does. Pragmatism is that large grey area between villainy and altruism that can sometimes seem like either one of those things.
I don't think I've ever played a character that wasn't a good gal at heart, but I have played some monstrously horrible characters over the years.
I find it is a lot easier to start a balanced, generally good-natured character earlier in life and just let them evolve based on how life treats them - sometimes they stay good, balanced people, sometimes they become heroic souls who go out of their way to do the right thing (right being subject to point of view, of course!) but most of the time they become terrible people. All of the above are a lot easier to maintain when you have in-game history to reinforce it.
You didn't just pen it out and app it, you aren't a canned story as an excuse to be a dick and shout 'nya-ha-ha!' as you flee out the tavern door.
When you have that personal investment of being there for those wonderful and horrible moments in the characters life and have a tangible feel for why they are generous and tolerant or straight up rat bastards, it is a lot easier to behave in ways that are alien to who you as a person in the real world.
It works for me, anyway.
A truly nice and open-minded character will not last long on Armageddon. Why? Kindness and niceness is like a perfume to predators. These nice people get lured in and eventually are destroyed by more savage elements. Time after time, I see a really sweet-natured PC, and oocly I am thinking "that poor girl/boy, she's too sweet to survive long" and I have rarely been wrong.
Everyone has to have a little bad, or at least willingness to bend the moral code, to survive in Zalanthas. I tend to think the best sort of character to survive in Zalanthas, are people like the character Shane from The Walking Dead. Ruthless, self-assured, but still with that small part that is human and cares (even if just for a small circle of people).
A good core, surrounded by the rough ruthlessness needed to survive, will keep you alive in Armageddon. Someone totally good will be exploited and used. Someone totally evil will be hunted down and killed. Balance is the key.
As for the original question, I don't have a problem being a villain. I tend to think of my chars sometimes being anti-heroes, rather than straight up villains.
Quote from: spicemustflow on June 05, 2013, 08:20:31 AM
Samurai used to test their new blades on random peasants (unless I'm totally wrong).
You would be wrong. (http://www.warriorcrafts.com/the_gruesome_act_of_sword_testing.html) Yes.
Quote from: musashi on June 05, 2013, 09:30:42 AM
Quote from: spicemustflow on June 05, 2013, 08:20:31 AM
Samurai used to test their new blades on random peasants (unless I'm totally wrong).
You would be wrong. (http://www.warriorcrafts.com/the_gruesome_act_of_sword_testing.html) Yes.
Shit. I knew I probably bought into a dramatic internet weeaboo tale.
Shiny. Let's be bad guys.
Good idea in choosing to play a dwarf for a taste of villainy.
Dwarves with the right focus can be traitorous monsters capable of killing their best friends in cold blood, and launching long term reigns of sociopathy few humans would be able to keep up.
The focus frees you from the temptation of choosing a "good" (and often less realistic) option because you are uncomfortable being evil. You don't have to worry about taking your own psyche into places you aren't comfortable, because this is not a human mind you're piloting, and it shouldn't resemble yours.
Don't think the path is always obvious, or that your dwarf's choices are made for you, however. If you're playing your dwarf correctly, you should constantly be examining every person and event through the lens of your focus - giving you plenty of opportunity for thinks and feels and analysis.
Dwarves get a bad rap and it's a shame. I think a likely cause is not taking foci to the extreme they should be taken. I'd bet a lot of dwarf PCs take the focus of "be the best hunter", for example, but only fulfill that through skilling up their hunting skills, and otherwise act like a human who really enjoys hunting.
What that dwarf could be doing instead - analyze all the hunters he works with. Incessantly talk to the best of them to learn their secrets. Gain their trust, to better get those secrets. If the dwarf still can't surpass them in hunting skill? Cripple or kill them, no matter how many times they may have saved your life. Maybe your dwarf decides that to be the best hunter, he has to have the best crew. So he recruits good people, trains them, gains their trust...then someone wants to leave. But if my hunters leave my crew, I can't be the best hunter! So they can't leave. Your dwarf hires someone to make them believe they're in danger, so they stay in the safety of your group. Or your dwarf destroys their reputation so they can't be hired anywhere else. If that fails, your dwarf kills them so the hunting secrets you've taught them don't get out.
When I played my dwarf I often thought of certain cartoons - the ones where the enemies are robots because the heroes would never kill a human. The Foot Clan in TMNT were robots, so that Leonardo could chop through fifty without any moral qualms. Dwarves should be the same way - to them, other people are only robots that should be used or destroyed when appropriate. More people need to play dwarves with this kind of ruthlessness, and less like strong humans who really like a certain clan. Dwarves can be intelligent and manipulative, and often should be, because in their minds they are always right.
And thinking you're always justified is a good recipe for a villain...
Now I wan to write up a long thread about dwarves.
Play more elves. Myeah.
They're the second most populous race on Zalanthas, the fact that PC breeds and dwarves are more common than elves nonwithstanding. It is also -very- hard to play a proper elf and not be a bad guy in your own right.
what patuk says. if you play a genuinely kind hearted elf you're doing it wrong.
Well, that's a matter of perspective, with perspective being whether you're part of my tribe or not.
Quote from: Kalai on June 05, 2013, 11:14:55 AM
Well, that's a matter of perspective, with perspective being whether you're part of my tribe or not.
Indeed.
You're still going to make life a bitch for the world's population at large, though.
Quote from: Patuk on June 05, 2013, 11:23:50 AM
Quote from: Kalai on June 05, 2013, 11:14:55 AM
Well, that's a matter of perspective, with perspective being whether you're part of my tribe or not.
Indeed.
You're still going to make life a bitch for the world's population at large, though.
I think the best appropriate way to play an evilish decent guy is to only have a heart for anyone of your racial gene pool and fear loathing and general disgust for anything not your race. It would allow you to give that human beggar that skin, or buy fruit from that whiny girl, yet kick that breed out of your way or eye that elf like he's gonna steal your shit, cause he probably is.
I've only played a couple of evil bitches, I'm no good at being all evil all the time. It's something I actually work on. It took a long time for me to actually be okay with the racism having had to deal with it in real life.
What may on the surface appear "Kind-hearted" is not always so, and the instant gain or loss coming from an act is no way to judge its value. That good deed you just witnessed may be a ploy to earn your trust and make you think this guy is not one of "those guys", or failing that make you underestimate them which can provide a wealth of benefit if used correctly. The plan needn't have an immediate or even eventual outcome, but be an open-ended tangle of threads to be yanked or loosened as needed. The picture sort of paints itself and you just coast along, not so much need for conscious planning, there's so much of your brain you're possibly impeding by not letting it do its thing, or at least, that's how my brain seems to work.
That's right, just let it happen, happy little trees.
Ever feigned a weakness or injury with the intent to knock someone in a place not so pleasant once they got close enough to press their advantage? Pretended to befriend an enemy over a long time period just so you could learn how to REALLY hurt them? And then sometimes, you shrug and say, "Meh... Revenge doesn't really seem as productive as having this person around." (Is that when they sneak up and kick you in the pair?). Some things work well when you convince yourself of your own deception, then one day turn around and say, "Oh yeah! That's what this was about." *sets fire to friend/enemy's dog*. "I don't know man? I turned my back and next thing you know spot jumped into the fireplace, I was alerted by the smell of burning hair." (Don't put living things in the fire, it's mean.)
Some can look at a chessboard and plan every move out ahead of time, given sufficient brain power and knowing your opponent well, but even then things will happen that cause you to re-analyze your first intentions, making you have to go over it again and again. It could be done (just not by me), but in one of the books I own it states that there are certain positions, especially in the opening game, that are simply good moves and follow solid principles of playing without looking all the way to the endgame and thinking "Oh, I know where all these pawns will be and I'll be up three of them and a rook if I put my bishop here.". If an opening presents itself, or a move is made that implies a threat in the not so distant future, you begin to plan accordingly for how all your pieces occupying certain positions can be mobilized for offense and defense and thinking about which side would be better to castle on. The book, by, Irving Chernec, I think, Logical Chess or something... I still need to finish it, got through the kingside attack section and there's SO much more.
I could be very wrong about how to play chess, I admit I'm not all that good, especially since I haven't played in a while and am a little rusty. Just my thoughts on what seems like "altruism" and "weakness".
EDIT: Just wanted to mention, I'm not thinking of people as pieces, to me the pieces represent actions and words. If it's a me against the world perspective, then my end of the board has a single pawn (thats me!) approaching a full board on the other side that he can't see, not a good scenario.
My first "bad guy" Was lawful evil.
Embracing the evil by extorting elves and getting them sent to jail. If I could do it again I would have been more evil.
Those that you are against hate and fear your character, but generally the people that are with you on your side love and respect your character.
For me the burn Tuluk to the ground sorcerer is out of reach, but the sacrifice people on an alter evil is in the realm achievable. If your character has a goal and thats what they are then thats just what they would do. Playing the villain can be exhilarating and I highly recommend coming out of your comfort zone and try it. Remember Murder, corruption and betrayal.
Quote from: chrisdcoulombe on June 05, 2013, 04:12:57 PM
My first "bad guy" Was lawful evil.
Embracing the evil by extorting elves and getting them sent to jail. If I could do it again I would have been more evil.
Those that you are against hate and fear your character, but generally the people that are with you on your side love and respect your character.
For me the burn Tuluk to the ground sorcerer is out of reach, but the sacrifice people on an alter evil is in the realm achievable. If your character has a goal and thats what they are then thats just what they would do. Playing the villain can be exhilarating and I highly recommend coming out of your comfort zone and try it. Remember Murder, corruption and betrayal.
I loved that pc. I didn't find him evil at all. Apart from a lack of uppercase letters.
Quote from: Barzalene on June 05, 2013, 04:19:45 PM
Quote from: chrisdcoulombe on June 05, 2013, 04:12:57 PM
My first "bad guy" Was lawful evil.
Embracing the evil by extorting elves and getting them sent to jail. If I could do it again I would have been more evil.
Those that you are against hate and fear your character, but generally the people that are with you on your side love and respect your character.
For me the burn Tuluk to the ground sorcerer is out of reach, but the sacrifice people on an alter evil is in the realm achievable. If your character has a goal and thats what they are then thats just what they would do. Playing the villain can be exhilarating and I highly recommend coming out of your comfort zone and try it. Remember Murder, corruption and betrayal.
I loved that pc. I didn't find him evil at all. Apart from a lack of uppercase letters.
Lmao, I have improved that a lot. Not perfect I still make errors, but generally will capitalize and punctuate.
Thats another part of playing evil. Don't let everyone know how evil your character actually is.
Quote from: chrisdcoulombe on June 05, 2013, 04:26:03 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on June 05, 2013, 04:19:45 PM
Quote from: chrisdcoulombe on June 05, 2013, 04:12:57 PM
My first "bad guy" Was lawful evil.
Embracing the evil by extorting elves and getting them sent to jail. If I could do it again I would have been more evil.
Those that you are against hate and fear your character, but generally the people that are with you on your side love and respect your character.
For me the burn Tuluk to the ground sorcerer is out of reach, but the sacrifice people on an alter evil is in the realm achievable. If your character has a goal and thats what they are then thats just what they would do. Playing the villain can be exhilarating and I highly recommend coming out of your comfort zone and try it. Remember Murder, corruption and betrayal.
I loved that pc. I didn't find him evil at all. Apart from a lack of uppercase letters.
Lmao, I have improved that a lot. Not perfect I still make errors, but generally will capitalize and punctuate.
Mine was Lawful Evil as well. So much so that I didn't realize he was evil until I got Kudos for being so evil. He was by far my favorite aide.
Quote from: Fredd on June 05, 2013, 05:04:39 PM
Mine was Lawful Evil as well. So much so that I didn't realize he was evil until I got Kudos for being so evil. He was by far my favorite aide.
Ah, the LE Aide. One of my favorites.
"Aide Amos, please bring me some tea."
"Of course, Lady Snilling. One lump or two?"
"And the one who upset me."
"Of course, Lady Snilling. Will you need to speak with them?"
The most terrible character I ever played was offensive to my sensibilities often. Callous regard for others and themselves, entirely glib. They had no real humanity, it was all attempting a facsimile of being such.
They did the most good of any PC I have played on any MUD.
Nobody thinks they are evil if they're sane. There's always something that anchors them, no matter how flawed.
Quote from: Case on June 05, 2013, 05:32:46 PM
Nobody thinks they are evil if they're sane. There's always something that anchors them, no matter how flawed.
Pretty much, yup.
I blame peer pressure. It'll be the downfall of every character that sets out with noble intentions that carry over from our world, but sadly don't follow the views of the majority within Zalanthas, and as to what they'd consider "noble intentions". :-\ "You want me to follow that guy across the city, into his apartment, stab him in the back, and send his rotting corpse to his loved ones? Just 'cause he was talkin' smack? Sure thing! Gotta teach people how things are run around here, amziright?"
*High-fives all around*
In a world where lives are cheap (out of the ridiculous expense of feeding mouths), when someone dislikes another enough to have them killed, my "bad guys" will rarely think that it'd be worth the risk of displeasing a trusted ally over someone they don't know/like.
Can be insulting to some to say thieves are bad guys. I am so offended! ;) Wondering though, as a thief you say, could you not steal from other thieves? Something makes me think you could not.
There would not be beggars if there were not people giving them there waterskins. So do not feel bad about this. There are so many characters I come across who do openly sympathise. It is humorous, and gives me a good feeling at what lengths they will go to help. The kindness can hurt too.
Real life example. Praying for people, and that person that is being prayed for, them actually knowing it. Has been shown that they -are- worse off, and it is detrimental to their health. So be mean! Grrr! :D
You should never feel as if you are being forced into performing some evil or even good action.
QuoteWhen I played my dwarf I often thought of certain cartoons - the ones where the enemies are robots because the heroes would never kill a human. The Foot Clan in TMNT were robots, so that Leonardo could chop through fifty without any moral qualms. Dwarves should be the same way - to them, other people are only robots that should be used or destroyed when appropriate.
These are great tricks and ways to look at it. But I would only add, hesitantly that it may not be great to openly desensitize yourself like this. Playing this type of character for years or so, you are going to bring some issues over from the game into your life.
Also, being evil or annoying is great for other players. You are doing good! Probably most of the time it is appreciated I would expect. I mean, personally I find it so very enjoyable from both sides. I love meeting and being super :o characters.
Thanks for the replies, everyone. I don't know, I tend to find the best way I can play characters I would consider 'bad' is to just play the fanatic. "I'm totally dedicated to the Arm, His City and His human citizens. To your average Joe, I'm the nice soldier who won't exploit her patch to mug your purse. To an elf, or a northerner, I'm the xenophobe even by Arm standards who openly despises knife-ears, breeds, and the art-loving, Tek-forsaken northerners. I think it lets me get in my 'good karma,' so I don't feel as terrible after I kick your elf out of my seat. As to whether I'd steal from another thief... I suppose it depends. Obviously, as a human, I'd probably have little problems with it IC. As an elf, I suppose it depends what tribe they're from. OOC... Unless I know your character has plenty, or has wronged me IC, I'd feel pretty terrible about stealing from you. That said, I don't judge people who DO play these roles. I just have difficulty with them. Theres always a little chaotic good in every character I play.
Also, I now need to make Alladin in Allanak. He sings while he springs from rooftop to rooftop. Subguild Bard. "I steal, only what I can't afford~! (And that's everything.)
QuoteAs to whether I'd steal from another thief... I suppose it depends. Obviously, as a human, I'd probably have little problems with it IC. As an elf, I suppose it depends what tribe they're from. OOC... Unless I know your character has plenty, or has wronged me IC, I'd feel pretty terrible about stealing from you.
This sounds very much like a yes to me!
Anyway, I am reading into that you are also more okay when you are considering it as, "Revenge!" or "Racism!" or "Hate!" or "Envy!" You sound more than capable of evil than you are giving yourself credit for. Perhaps you are okay yet!
Me speculating here is making me feel more than slightly :-[
I tried to make an amoral PC once to see what path she would take. She was totally self centred and self respect was the most important thing in her life. She was a petty thief, if she saw anything she fancied that was safe to take , she would automatically take it. Her lockermate's food, something fancy from a clanny's body, a small amount of sids off the merchants table.
The badness didn't really go anywhere though, as the survival instinct took over...she was a coward when facing authorities.
She was uninterested in people, but it was part of her job to take notice and her work was very important to her,so she sat at the bar and talked to them.
A breed was very important to her as the shield that could save her precious skin, though this probably looked different from the outside too.
I think she was the PC I liked the least...I missed having good feelings towards even one person...well, maybe one PC did almost get through her shell, despite all my good intentions. I was very sad to lose the clan and her skilz when she got killed by wildlife, but I was happy that she wasn't in my life any more.
I think I'll stick with PC's that just hang out with the baddies hoping for a few crumbs. Or ones that just "evolve".
Quote from: Asche on June 05, 2013, 08:25:07 PM
Also, I now need to make Alladin in Allanak. He sings while he springs from rooftop to rooftop. Subguild Bard. "I steal, only what I can't afford~! (And that's everything.)
I laughed.
I've played a lot of amoral characters and a swath of straight up bastards. Those who wouldn't mind knocking you over the head to get what they want, those who don't act polite for the sake of it, and some for who crime was an enjoyment, a thrill, or for one of my dwarves, a focus. Most of my 'bad guys' are just 'not nice people', rather than evil hearted SOB's. I haven't ever done truly evil on Arm.
I did play one particularly malevolent person, with a real penchant for vengeance and cruelty, on another mud, and it was great fun. He ended up being an anti-hero to some extent after a good 14 months or so of playing him.
Don't worry, though. My next Arm character idea is going to be a bad, bad Leeroy Brown.
The few times when my characters would try and kill people was to enforce the rules or authority. It may have seemed evil to whoever was getting chased down. My characters usually would see it as actually saving future people by setting an example of the consequences of inappropriate social behavior.
Quote from: Kismetic on June 06, 2013, 06:29:51 AM
Quote from: Asche on June 05, 2013, 08:25:07 PM
Also, I now need to make Alladin in Allanak. He sings while he springs from rooftop to rooftop. Subguild Bard. "I steal, only what I can't afford~! (And that's everything.)
I laughed.
I wish you good luck in the search to find your own Princess Jasmine!
Quote from: Tyas on June 06, 2013, 03:57:29 PM
Quote from: Kismetic on June 06, 2013, 06:29:51 AM
Quote from: Asche on June 05, 2013, 08:25:07 PM
Also, I now need to make Alladin in Allanak. He sings while he springs from rooftop to rooftop. Subguild Bard. "I steal, only what I can't afford~! (And that's everything.)
I laughed.
I wish you good luck in the search to find your own Princess Jasmine!
There's one on every street corner.
Quote from: Vwest on June 06, 2013, 04:28:48 PM
Quote from: Tyas on June 06, 2013, 03:57:29 PM
Quote from: Kismetic on June 06, 2013, 06:29:51 AM
Quote from: Asche on June 05, 2013, 08:25:07 PM
Also, I now need to make Alladin in Allanak. He sings while he springs from rooftop to rooftop. Subguild Bard. "I steal, only what I can't afford~! (And that's everything.)
I laughed.
I wish you good luck in the search to find your own Princess Jasmine!
There's one on every street corner.
Ugh, who needs Jasmine, when you can find a magical djinn, instead?
Quote from: Kismetic on June 06, 2013, 05:24:04 PM
Quote from: Vwest on June 06, 2013, 04:28:48 PM
Quote from: Tyas on June 06, 2013, 03:57:29 PM
Quote from: Kismetic on June 06, 2013, 06:29:51 AM
Quote from: Asche on June 05, 2013, 08:25:07 PM
Also, I now need to make Alladin in Allanak. He sings while he springs from rooftop to rooftop. Subguild Bard. "I steal, only what I can't afford~! (And that's everything.)
I laughed.
I wish you good luck in the search to find your own Princess Jasmine!
There's one on every street corner.
Ugh, who needs Jasmine, when you can find a magical djinn, instead?
Protip:
Not all djinn grant wishes.
LOLOLOLOL
Actually, to keep this on topic (I had the thing open to post, then left and came back, thinking it was the RAT thread):
The best villains are the ones you don't expect, the ones who are always justified, or the ones who are zealots.
The only type of truly three dimensional villains I've seen all have the following in common: They are the hero of their own story. They genuinely believe that either what they are doing is the right thing, or that the ends justify the means.
Dude, that's not a protip. I saw Aladdin in theaters with my grandma, and the Genie definitely gives you wishes, man. Gimme ze lamp
Maybe the djinn from "The Wishmaster" movies instead...
Not gonna lie. I had a character whose mantra was
"I'm just following orders" I often thought of Munich
Setting examples was another big part of it. It discouraged bad behavior.
Quote from: Bogre on June 06, 2013, 08:00:43 AM
I did play one particularly malevolent person, with a real penchant for vengeance and cruelty, on another mud, and it was great fun. He ended up being an anti-hero to some extent after a good 14 months or so of playing him.
"'Ello, dreadful." :)
Right on the money. ;D
Man, really wish I could find where I had posted about this the last time it came up.
In either case, playing a villain, in my opinion, is like playing any other character, it's just a matter of priorities. When you're a villain, you are priority number #1. The first rule of being a villain is looking out for #1.
Let's use a scenario - you and your friend are out in the middle of the sands, and suddenly, you run into a huge problem. You forgot to bring a waterskin, and you're very, very far away from civilization.
This is where your 'sane brain' will kick in and say - "I must alert my friend to this crisis! He can provide me with his water-skin/food/cuddle-power and we can work together to get back to the City, and live in harmony!" Well - that would be all well and good - but it would not be very evil, now would it?
Always remember to think of what's best for #1. Alternatively, let's consider the situation faced from a villain perspective: "I forgot my waterskin! But wait! That's alright, my friend Amos is holding a waterskin for me!" How and where it goes from there depends on a variety of factors, but if it came down to it, the villain isn't going to be the one giving up his waterskin so the 'other guy' can ride into the sun-set.
A normal person can be seen in a very evil light when matters of survival come into play, and it's very easy to sort've snow-ball evil once the ball gets rolling: "I killed Amos - but I had to, because I needed the water, or I would've died. When I get back to the City, there's going to be people asking questions - he was a magicker, he turned, and I had to put him down. He wanted me to betray <whoever the fuck matters> and I didn't have a choice. I'm a hero."
People are always the narrators of their own story, and there's very few cases where people stare into the mirror and say something like, "Oh god, I am a monster!" There's always a reasoning, a justification for their actions, and that's how evil people can do evil things and still live with themselves.
Quote from: Decameron on June 07, 2013, 06:58:12 PM
People are always the narrators of their own story, and there's very few cases where people stare into the mirror and say something like, "Oh god, I am a monster!" There's always a reasoning, a justification for their actions, and that's how evil people can do evil things and still live with themselves.
In fact, it's more likely that good people will look in the mirror and say "I am a monster." Bad people will check their hair and move along.
(That was a sort of random response. I'm not really ready to stand behind it.)
Quote from: Barzalene on June 07, 2013, 07:49:06 PM
Quote from: Decameron on June 07, 2013, 06:58:12 PM
People are always the narrators of their own story, and there's very few cases where people stare into the mirror and say something like, "Oh god, I am a monster!" There's always a reasoning, a justification for their actions, and that's how evil people can do evil things and still live with themselves.
In fact, it's more likely that good people will look in the mirror and say "I am a monster." Bad people will check their hair and move along.
(That was a sort of random response. I'm not really ready to stand behind it.)
stamp of approval
Quote from: Delirium on June 07, 2013, 08:32:34 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on June 07, 2013, 07:49:06 PM
Quote from: Decameron on June 07, 2013, 06:58:12 PM
People are always the narrators of their own story, and there's very few cases where people stare into the mirror and say something like, "Oh god, I am a monster!" There's always a reasoning, a justification for their actions, and that's how evil people can do evil things and still live with themselves.
In fact, it's more likely that good people will look in the mirror and say "I am a monster." Bad people will check their hair and move along.
(That was a sort of random response. I'm not really ready to stand behind it.)
stamp of approval
Ditto and so quotable!
Quote from: Barzalene on June 07, 2013, 07:49:06 PM
Quote from: Decameron on June 07, 2013, 06:58:12 PM
People are always the narrators of their own story, and there's very few cases where people stare into the mirror and say something like, "Oh god, I am a monster!" There's always a reasoning, a justification for their actions, and that's how evil people can do evil things and still live with themselves.
In fact, it's more likely that good people will look in the mirror and say "I am a monster." Bad people will check their hair and move along.
(That was a sort of random response. I'm not really ready to stand behind it.)
That is... pretty much spot on.
I much prefer to play the systemic monster (Lawful Evil-like) than the homicidal maniac (Chaotic Evil-esque).
After all, it's not "evil." It's a necessary sacrifice for the greater good.
My flaws must be hidden. Your flaws are to be exposed as weaknesses that threaten us all, and purged.
>slip hypocrisy bag
>wield tyranny etwo
This kind of evil only works when you have actual influence. The chaotic variety best suits the random nobodies. There's a place for everything.
I have trouble playing people who aren't morally reprehensible...
You're all nuts.
You can't be evil or even very bad by yourself.
Just go along, do what people tell you, take what gifts they give you, and you'll be evil enough in no time.
Trust me.
Quote from: Mood on June 08, 2013, 09:43:56 PM
I have trouble playing people who aren't morally reprehensible...
I don't have trouble with it, but I do get really bored playing upstanding sorts of characters.
Honestly; Evil is fun. For you and, if done properly, for the people around you.
Quote from: Dalmeth on June 12, 2013, 05:32:37 PM
You're all nuts.
You can't be evil or even very bad by yourself.
Just go along, do what people tell you, take what gifts they give you, and you'll be evil enough in no time.
Trust me.
You sprieken ze words of wisdom, mein fuerer. Evil needs a partner, or, at the very least, an observer, to exist!
It's not morally reprehensible if everyone does it.
I find that going for the extreme is a good way to become someone's personal antagonist. I, personally, don't design characters to be mean. If circumstances crack the outer layer, I've noticed a viciousness that is unparalleled by other characters I've played in other games. Almost as though taking every negative emotion and magnifying it. That's not to say that my character feels no remorse when she murders someone on command, it's just covered up by a sense of duty, excused by commands and laws (mostly), and justified by results. Twinges of guilt are nothing when you feel utter satisfaction at having pleased those who are in charge of your future.
I also tend to note that when around certain personalities, this behavior is absolutely magnified by a thousand. It's almost like some personalites just egg you on, not in a sense that tries to one-up either. Just by bonds of trust and comradeship.
There is a very useful old thread (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,29497.0.html) on the 48 Laws of Power (http://www2.tech.purdue.edu/cgt/courses/cgt411/covey/48_laws_of_power.htm).
If you've never read them, you've never played a badguy. ;)
The "just following orders" excuse works well, but one still needs a superior giving them villainous orders. If someone wants to play an evil minion, and they have a nice-guy boss, that can get a little tricky. In that case, the underling has to interpret their orders more liberally, or take an "ends justify the means" approach, using ruthless methods to bring about the laudable objectives of their nice-guy boss.
There's also a difference between playing a "bad guy" and just playing an a@$hole.
One clan's villain is often another clan's hero.
Personally, I do not have a problem raining on people's parades, making enemies, frightening or angering people, and generally playing a mean person, but even my most villainous character had someone out there who thought of them as a savior or hero.
One's 'boss' could be Tektolnes, who by all accounts is a huge dick.