On occasion I have played family roles in every great merchant house, including Nenyuk way back when. It used to be easier. There were always people who wanted to be part of the team.
In the last few years, things really shifted away and there is a greater desire to play the rich independent. People seem to be arguing that it's stupid to play a hunter with a finite income when you could play an independent and make more than a noble or more than ten nobles. I think that's having a huge negative impact on the game and here's why:
Family Roles Poorly Impacted -
Everyone complains that you can never find a merchant or an agent anymore. There should be active family in all the major population centers but people aren't applying for the roles when they're posted. When the roles are filled people are quitting quickly. People who keep the roles seem to be short on people to hire, leading them to hire almost anyone, which diminishes the cache of the position, or working without support.
Meanwhile, the game world is very demanding. Everyone wants everything from you. They want it now. They treat you like a gumball machine, and without minions there is no buffer.
So, one quantifiable effect is that you have fewer Merchants and Agents available.
Harsh Desert Planet Poorly Impacted -
The thing about clans is that they give you a place for camaraderie, and potentially for a place to have people you can count on, maybe trust. There is safety. The ooc benefits include increased opportunities for role play.
You Can't Win Armageddon -
While codedly you can do better on your own, it doesn't add as much to the game to have people making a bazillion sid on their own while the clans that should be full languish. The building of personal empires is a lovely goal, but again, not giving as much to the game as having the clans that should be bedrock languish.
So, while it's nice to have measures of your pc's success in terms like huge bank accounts and big expensive bling, I think that we're losing the game, not winning with these measures of achievement. You can't take any of that sid to the grocery store. Why is it better to make more sid in a way that's less game positive than to make less in a way that adds more to the game world?
I agree with OP, but I believe most players are and always will be primarily concerned with: Looking cool, being "right" or "justified", OOC fame, or personal fun revolving around their selfish goals as a player.
You won't see an IC change in mindset towards these sorts of roles until you create an OOC incentive to create change on a meaningful scale.
Until joining a House is OOC'ly recognized as "winning" on some level by the playerbase, you just won't see people flocking to it. Right now it is fairly common knowledge that you can make more as a indy hunter than a House hunter, at least in the shortterm, and since most hunters, including House hunters, don't live long enough to become the highest ranking member of that clan and finally break that financial threshold, most people choose to go indy.
Until joining a House somehow shifts that mindset on an OOC level this problem will persist in my opinion.
I don't know, I really think all of you are wrong.
The amount of coin my PC makes has never been a reason to join or not join a house...of any kind. And I really think that most players, you all included are really the same way. My PCs join houses/clans because either it is ICly something they would do, or I made the PC to do something with that clan. And from what I have seen from the 3 posters already, and most other players, it is the same for you. When I make a tribal, it is not because my PC wants coin, or even cool tribal clothes, it is because I want to play in that tribe with that mindset. When I play an indy, it is because I want to play a PC that for whatever reason, does not feel he fits in a clan.
The only problem I have seen with clans...recently, is that Almost NONE of you leader types are really pushing the recruiting...A bit of anecdotal evidence on the matter.
Back when our playerbase was about half or less then it is now, say oh, 2002, every single recruiting clan made sure to camp the spawn areas...You would almost literally get jumped on by two or three recruiters the moment you entered the game. Combat clans drooled and almost came to blows trying to recruit half-giants and dwarves, merchant clans were jumping all over the humans and even breeds sometimes. If you started in the rinth you could and were often pressed into the guild.
Now of course, there was that compatition because there was so few players (the resource). Now though, I enter the game as a HG, start in nak, nobody tries to recruit him, go to Luirs, Nobody tries there, go to Tuluk...nobody tries there. Nobody EVER tried to recruit my last HG, he actually had to go in search of a clan. In fact, In the cases of my last 10 PCs that would join clans, every single one of them had to hunt down a clan to join.
Now, if I am playing a leaderish type PC, and you can ask others, including staff, the clan I am in, almost always becomes one of the largest, if not the largest clans in PC population in the game. And why, because my leaders recruit, they have minions who search for people to recruit. It is normally a general order to the minions, keep yours eyes open for the type of people we need, befriend them, talk to them, get them wanting to join up.
I know it has been said before, but in this case, the saying "be the change" REALLY works, you want your clans to fill up with PCs, WORK at it. Because many of us are simply waiting to get recruited, but when that does not happen, we just go on our own. What is really funny to me is, If you have been waiting, and have been indy a while, there is even less likelyhood of anybody trying to recruit you, because people simply don't try and recruit established indies. I do though, When I had my last Byn sarge, I recruited 20 and 40 day PCs into the byn as runners.
I've always been of the opinion that Merchant Houses should just do what they can to make life tough on independents.
1) It gives the houses more to do
2) It gives the independents an oppressive force (way more fun!)
3) It creates a common goal for minions that doesn't require too much direction
4) And maybe it solves the personnel problem if you actually get good at bullying (which you should eventually, even if things start out kinda roughshod)
Out of curiosity, are leaders actually asked not to do this sort of thing? I've never been a leader in a real clan before. Maybe it's just too much hassel, but honestly being an oppressive bullying jackass would add a lot more to the game than being a gumball machine. I think if you've only got time for one or the other, lean towards bully.
During the rolecall for Agent/Overseer/Crew Leader/Senior Merchant/Junior Agent/Whatever, it would certainly be interesting if they also asked for Hunting Crew Leaders, Merchants, etc etc as well. When the Akai Sjir has a rolecall they look for a Dealer AND minions. Given the current state of the GMHs, I could totally see the benefit of being accepted and having a mid-ranking commoner joining at the same time as you.
X-D definitely has it right, but I feel personally that the GMH's have suffered over the years.
GMH's thrive of competition. Not just with independents, but internal, and other houses.
In my honest opinion, there should be a minimum of 2 roles for at least kadius/salarr/kurac for both north and south and south (yes that is 10-12 sponsored roles), kurac perhaps can relegate to 2 in luirs.
Kadius, Salarr at least in the south where I've played the past few years, have virtually no presence in game pc-wise.
Granted times are different now, but when I last played a GMH agent in 2007, it was an incredible experience. There were 3 active Kadian family members, a couple salarri's, a couple kuraci's, and each of those clans were bursting at the seams with PC's.
More roles for each house not only lightens the OOC burden on pc's by spreading the workload, but also generates opportunities for great conflict both internally and externally.
Quote from: X-D on April 30, 2013, 12:44:50 PM
I don't know, I really think all of you are wrong.
The amount of coin my PC makes has never been a reason to join or not join a house...of any kind. And I really think that most players, you all included are really the same way. My PCs join houses/clans because either it is ICly something they would do, or I made the PC to do something with that clan. And from what I have seen from the 3 posters already, and most other players, it is the same for you. When I make a tribal, it is not because my PC wants coin, or even cool tribal clothes, it is because I want to play in that tribe with that mindset. When I play an indy, it is because I want to play a PC that for whatever reason, does not feel he fits in a clan.
The only problem I have seen with clans...recently, is that Almost NONE of you leader types are really pushing the recruiting...A bit of anecdotal evidence on the matter.
I agree that the majority of people do not join Houses for the money. I meant to make that a point in my original post. You don't join a House for financial reasons as a indy hunter, because typically, you make more as a indy. Joining for a financial gain is almost counter-roleplay-realistic.
If House positions were changed so that people would find the positions more attractive, the way they should based on the documentation, you wouldn't have to push recruiting.
Salarr shouldn't be "pushing" recruiting, they should be beating people off with a stick who are begging them for jobs because being a House employee should be a highly sought after position.
I dont think the problem is, "Almost NONE of you leader types are really pushing the recruiting", I think the problem goes deeper, in the fact that they shouldn't have to be "pushing" anything at all, they should have to turn people away regularly.
To take it a step further, I think that certain leaders should be "pushing" their compensation packages more liberally than they do. If the House its self wont put up the cash to make those positions more appealing, maybe they are trying to say, "Hey Agent/Overseer/Family Member, that is your job, make the position more appealing."
The only real benefit I've discovered from joining houses on two characters is that you have an unlimited supply of food and therefore have no expenses allowing you to save.
On the other hand there is little actual work for you to do within these houses and there is very little in the way of profit. Basically the best thing to do is join a house and start saving your money long term.
Pros: Houses have influence and power, smart people might be able to influence their position to make more money and gather more power to themselves.
Cons: Don't earn as much money as you possibly could alone, you are a bit trapped/restricted in your house from doing certain things.
Solutions: Nerf the money faucets that rain money on independents in particular.
The OOC problem that player leaders face in recruiting for Merchant Houses is that there is little cost for our characters dying.
Sure, RP says that our characters want to live. But seriously, if we watch what characters do, that just isn't so.
Anecdotal and personal experience show that characters associated with GMH (who make it past a RL week or two, and can manage to follow some basic rules) have the opportunity to go on and lead relatively productive, long lives.
Indy hunters, it seems, rise to wealth, get cocky, get lucky a few times, get unlucky once, and die. The players just go on, it sometimes seems, to create new characters of the same type. This may not be entirely true--maybe there is a constant influx of players who do this--but since the average character lives about 3 weeks, it is probably at least partly true.
When a character dies, a player immediately checks new Karma levels, and then apps. Almost always, within 24 hours, they're back on the horse (kank, beetle, whatever).
Is it possible that characters not approaching GMHs is actually a reflection of the lower approval times for characters? If players can get back in the game that quickly, there is little OOC cost for risk-taking, especially for anyone who likes grind more than RP.
I'm not suggesting that we increase approval times to punish players for letting their characters die. But understanding the multiple roots of the problem may allow us to craft an effective solution.
EDIT for grammar.
Actually, I am saying that money does not matter one direction or another.
Shoulda, coulda woulda...The fact of the matter is, people LIKE to be recruited, they like people to want them, or at least feel that way, this is not something that is going to change, no matter what you add to the houses. If people are not out actively recruiting the clan membership will always be luke warm at best. Course, keeping them once you recruit them is another matter, for another thread. Course being rid of that life oath sillyness for any clan goes a long way. Luckily most non-noble clans have modified that requirement.
As to there being "little work" And "little profit" That is never the fault of the clan itself...but the leaders, sorry folks, if it seems like I am picking on leader types. But if you are playing one then sure, you are supposed to be advancing your house and all that, but if you want players...well, you have to give them work and profits of some kind. Again, going to my own experience. I never had a problem keeping a large and fun crew around, be it Salarr, Winrothol, Byn etc. Aside from active recruiting, I also had plenty of work for the minions...along with gifts and other bonuses.
In short, again, Be the change, make your house/clan attractive, hell, enough active recruiting, to get even 4 or 5 players in, then keeping it fun WILL have people knocking down your door. People will go to the "fun" active clans. When I had a sarge in Salarri expansion division, it started off slow, But there was a couple fun, active, actively recruiting salarr family members, once we had a solid base, people were constantly trying to join. After a very short period we started turning people away, not long after that, staff even said "Hey, let us cool the recruiting for the time being.
You can change all the docs etc you want to a clan, in the end, if you want people to play, you have to get them there and make others want to play.
I think XD has it right, people want to feel wanted. I played a Salarri... I guess we'll call it an Aide for now. When I asked to join, I was told "You know what? If you can find us some hunters, I'll totally hire you on." I was pissed because, damnit, I wanted in. Within about a RL hour, I had three new PCs sitting at a table with me, and I contacted that leader again and asked if that would be enough. It was as simple as -asking- people if they wanted to join Salarr, and mentioning a few benefits.
I would agree that the presence of the GMHs doesn't feel as pronounced, lately. I know there is a call for Kadians, but I've seen a Kadian once in my last RL month of playing. Salarris maybe three times. Whether this is because they're all in their Compounds, crafting their woodys into wads, I don't know.
There are 3 GMHs. I don't think this is already the case, but I think this would be easier for players if (staff-side) a decision were made that Salarr would focus in the South (makes sense), Kurac on Luir's and (to a lesser extent) Storm, and Kadius on the North.
That doesn't mean that there would be zero presence elsewhere, but (like Byn North) that it would only be done secondarily.
So if you (as a player) want to join Salarr, you automatically know that the active office is in the south. And if you want to join Kadius, the active office is in the North. Kurac is...where it always is.
Then again, maybe this is already being done. I'm so into my current character, I'm hardly paying attention to role announcement.
P.S. Yes, my suggestion is based on stereotypes. In the North, people compete by dressing in silks. In the South, people compete by dressing in armor. In Luir's, people come in from the sands to trade.
P.P.S. This suggestion is partly in response to the "using GMH members as gumball machines" problem as well. Allowing players to build up a local powerbase will help in getting many of their customers back in line. An automatic assumption that a GMH agent won't come running themselves, but will send a competent minion to take measurements, might make these positions more palatable, as well.
Here is an idea as an incentive.
House employees have access to resources, including tools, knowledge, raw materials, training and collaboration with other professionals that indy's can only dream of. Reflect this by giving those employees who can mastercraft additional mastercraft slots in the areas their House specializes in. Something like, if a Salarri mastercrafts armor/weapon, they get to mastercraft 2x a month. If they do something from another craft, they only get the 1.
I sort of agree, sort of disagree with OP.
When i played my Kadian, I filled my crew up with hunters, and crafters, to the point that I had to turn them down. How did I manage this? by playing an active, well rounded Family member with flaws, that was always looking for something to do, and coming up with things for everyone.
But it wasn't easy. I started off alone, in my first sponsored role. Had no crew, alright sid, and an AWESOME support team from the staff. Part of the problem is that recruit hunters aren't paid. So, i took coin from my own pocket, and provided bonuses of gear and booze ect to my hunters when we had a good half month. But to do that, I had to handle a barrage of orders and needy people. And a lot of people get burnt out from that. So what's my idea?
When you go to fill a merchant house sponsored role, I think staff should bring 2 family members in at a time, in different branches. This will help ALOT in my opinion.
I'd also like to step in here with a quick quip about the effect of the Byn with GMHs too...
When I first started, surviving your year in the Byn made you -extremely- valuable in the eyes of the GMHs. To the point where, really, some would wave the 1year recruitment period because you'd -shown- you can take orders and not die on contracts. Being able to say "Yeah I used to be a Trooper with the Gortoks" meant "I'm here for the long haul and worth your investment."
These days, GMHs (seem) to have the same interest in Troopers as they do straight out of chargen newbies with no mount or weapons. Maybe as part of "Active recruiting" more GMH leaders can sponsor or offer to pay a portion of a Byn fee, with the promise that they'd look into hiring after the year, maybe with an accelerated time of recruitment.
Granted, 300 coins for a leader isn't a paltry sum, but over the course of the water and food, and stabling fees (all virtual) I could see how it'd be a better investment than just hiring. Maybe this all just goes more into XDs idea of constant recruitment, and making people feel like you want them. Or maybe leaders just don't do it as much because they want people in their clan so badly, they don't want to wait 6 weeks for a new personality to interact with.
Quote from: Fredd on April 30, 2013, 04:45:40 PM
When you go to fill a merchant house sponsored role, I think staff should bring 2 family members in at a time, in different branches. This will help ALOT in my opinion.
Totally in agreement.
As it is with all leadership roles, delegation of duties takes a huge burden off the "head" of the group.
So, when Agent/Family roles are called, a First Hunter/Sergeant/Combat-equivalent role should go hand-in-hand.
Agent/Family role focuses primarily on dealing with orders and dealing with, issuing orders to, and making requests from the First Hunter/Sergeant.
First Hunter/Sergeant should be solely responsible for actively seeking out resources (hunters/crafters) that would be an aide to the House.
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on April 30, 2013, 04:51:22 PM
Quote from: Fredd on April 30, 2013, 04:45:40 PM
When you go to fill a merchant house sponsored role, I think staff should bring 2 family members in at a time, in different branches. This will help ALOT in my opinion.
Totally in agreement.
As it is with all leadership roles, delegation of duties takes a huge burden off the "head" of the group.
So, when Agent/Family roles are called, a First Hunter/Sergeant/Combat-equivalent role should go hand-in-hand.
Agent/Family role focuses primarily on dealing with orders and dealing with, issuing orders to, and making requests from the First Hunter/Sergeant.
First Hunter/Sergeant should be solely responsible for actively seeking out resources (hunters/crafters) that would be an aide to the House.
This rarely works when it's two family members. More often than not they immediately begin plotting against each other rather than working together for the glory of their House. Seen it more times than I care to remember.
Quote from: Riya OniSenshi on April 30, 2013, 05:15:09 PM
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on April 30, 2013, 04:51:22 PM
Quote from: Fredd on April 30, 2013, 04:45:40 PM
When you go to fill a merchant house sponsored role, I think staff should bring 2 family members in at a time, in different branches. This will help ALOT in my opinion.
Totally in agreement.
As it is with all leadership roles, delegation of duties takes a huge burden off the "head" of the group.
So, when Agent/Family roles are called, a First Hunter/Sergeant/Combat-equivalent role should go hand-in-hand.
Agent/Family role focuses primarily on dealing with orders and dealing with, issuing orders to, and making requests from the First Hunter/Sergeant.
First Hunter/Sergeant should be solely responsible for actively seeking out resources (hunters/crafters) that would be an aide to the House.
This rarely works when it's two family members. More often than not they immediately begin plotting against each other rather than working together for the glory of their House. Seen it more times than I care to remember.
Then a Family member, and a life sworn minion. Either will do.
But plotting against each other is good too, IMHO.
Quote from: Riya OniSenshi on April 30, 2013, 05:15:09 PM
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on April 30, 2013, 04:51:22 PM
Quote from: Fredd on April 30, 2013, 04:45:40 PM
When you go to fill a merchant house sponsored role, I think staff should bring 2 family members in at a time, in different branches. This will help ALOT in my opinion.
Totally in agreement.
As it is with all leadership roles, delegation of duties takes a huge burden off the "head" of the group.
So, when Agent/Family roles are called, a First Hunter/Sergeant/Combat-equivalent role should go hand-in-hand.
Agent/Family role focuses primarily on dealing with orders and dealing with, issuing orders to, and making requests from the First Hunter/Sergeant.
First Hunter/Sergeant should be solely responsible for actively seeking out resources (hunters/crafters) that would be an aide to the House.
This rarely works when it's two family members. More often than not they immediately begin plotting against each other rather than working together for the glory of their House. Seen it more times than I care to remember.
Yeah - I didn't mention that both were Family members. The combat-oriented counterpart to the Agent doesn't have to be Family. A simple life-sworn Hunter character who starts off with a bump to combat skills. If the life-sworn role ever tries to leave the House, they're force-stored to avoid players taking advantage of easy-start buffed characters.
Or just hunted as deserters IC'ly.
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on April 30, 2013, 05:34:10 PM
Quote from: Riya OniSenshi on April 30, 2013, 05:15:09 PM
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on April 30, 2013, 04:51:22 PM
Quote from: Fredd on April 30, 2013, 04:45:40 PM
When you go to fill a merchant house sponsored role, I think staff should bring 2 family members in at a time, in different branches. This will help ALOT in my opinion.
Totally in agreement.
As it is with all leadership roles, delegation of duties takes a huge burden off the "head" of the group.
So, when Agent/Family roles are called, a First Hunter/Sergeant/Combat-equivalent role should go hand-in-hand.
Agent/Family role focuses primarily on dealing with orders and dealing with, issuing orders to, and making requests from the First Hunter/Sergeant.
First Hunter/Sergeant should be solely responsible for actively seeking out resources (hunters/crafters) that would be an aide to the House.
This rarely works when it's two family members. More often than not they immediately begin plotting against each other rather than working together for the glory of their House. Seen it more times than I care to remember.
Yeah - I didn't mention that both were Family members. The combat-oriented counterpart to the Agent doesn't have to be Family. A simple life-sworn Hunter character who starts off with a bump to combat skills. If the life-sworn role ever tries to leave the House, they're force-stored to avoid players taking advantage of easy-start buffed characters.
Yeah, I meant to edit out yours, then I forgot. It's Fredd's quote that I meant. I get the feeling he's never had to live through that tediousness and asshattery in a clan with that going on. It's destructive to the clan, the PCs of the clan that arn't those two, and detrimental to the jobs those two -should- be doing.
Quote from: Desertman on April 30, 2013, 05:35:44 PM
Or just hunted as deserters IC'ly.
That work's too but I'd imagine if their character's already well-established. I was just saying, on the off-chance, that someone takes the role for life sworn, then less than IRL month later rebels and strikes off on their own the moment the House seems to start going inactive.
Part of being a leader is surviving the innumerable down times of a clan.
I also agree with the X-D philosophy here. Sure, you can say "Well, ICly, people should be banging down the door to join my clan because Zalanthas is harsh, and I work for a GMH, so I'm entitled to eager applicants!" That's a cop-out. If you aren't trying to recruit, or worse, you just aren't making your clan fun, you have no one to blame but yourself for your empty clan. The answer definitely isn't to make independent life less fun to make boring clan X look better in comparison.
If you just can't get over the mental block of having to go out and recruit, well, think a little harder about the virtual world. You can imagine that VNPCs are banging down your door if you want, but chances are, most of those VPNCs are pretty crap. If you really want talented, capable employees, just like in real life, they are going to be rarer than the desperate, unskilled masses, and you're probably going to have to compete against other houses or other divisions within your own house to get ahold of those capable employees. And for our purposes, those capable employees come from the PC population. If you want good employees, you will have to put in some effort.
Quote from: X-D on April 30, 2013, 12:44:50 PM
The only problem I have seen with clans...recently, is that Almost NONE of you leader types are really pushing the recruiting...A bit of anecdotal evidence on the matter.
Back when our playerbase was about half or less then it is now, say oh, 2002, every single recruiting clan made sure to camp the spawn areas...You would almost literally get jumped on by two or three recruiters the moment you entered the game. Combat clans drooled and almost came to blows trying to recruit half-giants and dwarves, merchant clans were jumping all over the humans and even breeds sometimes. If you started in the rinth you could and were often pressed into the guild.
I remember as a brand new player, I was literally fought over by a few clans and I ended up joining the AoD, second character I was even jumped on by a player run hunting group and other clans again and I was like "Wow, I didn't expect that." in my mind and I thought at the same time it was really cool and exciting but nowadays you have to actually approach people to try to get recruited. Sometimes you can go for DAYS and not meet the person who can do the recruiting even. It's not really being pushed like it used to be just a few years ago when you couldn't even breathe without someone asking you if you worked for anyone or wanted a job.
I'd love to see this happen again, but you can't please everyone and I also don't think it's a money thing most times with people going indy or clanning it up, I think recruiting does need to be pushed more from the leaders. I would love also if GMH did get more than one role in at a time, because to me they're really needed for the two major cities and it couldn't hurt to have both areas filled out with some leadership in those respective merchant houses.
In my experience, clan retention is generally low, and naturally, turnover is high. You do what you can to recruit, and you do the best you can to keep people, but ultimately, people would rather "rage against the machine" and play Johnny Badass on their own terms. Though, I've noticed a few characters here and there who try hard to get into a clan, and pursue it like it was a worthy goal, and I like seeing that faithfulness to the documentation.
I'm half in one camp, half in the other on this one.
I think it's better for the theme of the world overall if new PC's are approaching clans begging for work than the other way around.
I also realize that in order for that to happen the clan needs to be hopping and look like its going to be a blast to play in.
So my general philosophy when playing a leader is to do a lot of RPT stuff with my underlings (or if I'm super high up, recruit a mid level type and order them to do it), such that they have a big presence in the public eye. If PC's see your clan always having fun, they'll come to you wanting in, and then you can beat them off with a stick.
Quote from: musashi on April 30, 2013, 10:22:14 PM
I'm half in one camp, half in the other on this one.
I think it's better for the theme of the world overall if new PC's are approaching clans begging for work than the other way around.
I also realize that in order for that to happen the clan needs to be hopping and look like its going to be a blast to play in.
So my general philosophy when playing a leader is to do a lot of RPT stuff with my underlings (or if I'm super high up, recruit a mid level type and order them to do it), such that they have a big presence in the public eye. If PC's see your clan always having fun, they'll come to you wanting in, and then you can beat them off with a stick.
That's how I did it. Actively recruited a core group, and started coming up with things to do. I threw parties, sent them on wild-tregil chases based on hearsay, rubbed elbows with nobles, made frequent trips between cities. Whatever I could think of to make sure everyone was having fun, including me. This brought in a lot of buisness too, which gave my crafters work too. Once I was doing that, people were coming to me and begging for work.
I've done it as high ranking in other clans too, and it works every time, honestly. Change things to work with the docs, and there you go.
The problem that I see is that there are about a hundred more interesting, constructive things to be doing in a leadership role than recruiting. GMH's should recruit themselves.
I've played a very successful, long-lived independent hunter. I played a GMH hunter for a short time. It was excruciating.
It's not about the money. You need a lot of money if you're independent and very active. I'd go through a hundred sid in stable fees and water a day, easy, when I was starting out, and it was hard to come up with in the beginning. Later it wasn't an issue. But it wasn't ever the motivating factor for playing.
If I make a hunter PC I don't want to spend ten hours a day in a tavern. I want to get outside and do stuff. Even if I get killed doing it. But GMH's need to keep their newhires under control. They generally don't allow them to go outside alone. It makes sense of course. But if there's no active hunting group in the house, you end up sitting around bored crazy.
Playing an independent is -fun-. I want to do it again.
How do you make playing a GMH hunter fun? Seems like it used to be, because a year ago they used to have several hunters each. Maybe the answer is a sponsored lead hunter, like someone suggested. In each city. Who would actively recruit, and also keep the hunters engaged.
I'd play a sponsored role like that. I'd join a GMH if there was an active hunter there in my play times, too.
The independent will always be able to profit more, if your goal is purely coins. S/He has no house to pay, no conditions to live under. No worries about who might or might not be jealous/angry with their actions in a house.
If your IC goal is to be the richest badass in the known, you're better off playing an indie. They get better coin for what they do, they get better practice most times.
They also have no protection, no camaraderie except what S/He makes, no leader to defer action upon if they manage to break the law, or piss off another group. The reason people join GMH's, or any clan, is to be a part of something. If your goal is to be the richest indie around, feel welcome to pursue that goal. However, when houses start noticing your prosperity, don't be shocked when someone starts plotting against you, and you have no clan to fall back on.
That being said, I think hunting opportunities in the south, or lack there of, is one of the primary reasons the south has failed to have much of a presence as far as GMH's are concerned. I've seen many, many try and be house hunters in the south, only to die as soon as they actually try doing it.
Quote from: TheBadSeed on April 30, 2013, 11:26:47 PM
If your IC goal is to be the richest badass in the known for a couple of RL weeks, you're better off playing an indie.
This is more how I see it.
Quote from: TheBadSeed on April 30, 2013, 11:26:47 PM
They also have no protection, no camaraderie except what S/He makes, no leader to defer action upon if they manage to break the law, or piss off another group. The reason people join GMH's, or any clan, is to be a part of something. If your goal is to be the richest indie around, feel welcome to pursue that goal. However, when houses start noticing your prosperity, don't be shocked when someone starts plotting against you, and you have no clan to fall back on.
I disagree with that. Part of why I enjoy playing indies so much vs clanned is that I get to pick the people my character surrounds himself with. I get to pick my friends, I get to pick the ones I trust and there's just as much, if not more camaraderie than in clans because you actually enjoy the ones you work with and it's usually also much less drama. Constant clan drama is why I now steer away from them these days.
There's also plenty of protection if you know how to go about it. If you can provide important people with resources, they'll always be trying hard to keep you around. One could almost say that there's probably better protection as an indie because you can grab protection from many sources as opposed to just one. Indie can bribe templars, they can make deals with desert elf tribes, they can provide GMHs with resources when they don't have hunters of their own, etc..
Quote from: Kismetic on April 30, 2013, 11:04:55 PM
The problem that I see is that there are about a hundred more interesting, constructive things to be doing in a leadership role than recruiting. GMH's should recruit themselves.
Except you can't do those hundred things if you have no coin, and no crew to help further your goals.
Quote from: Fredd on April 30, 2013, 11:55:09 PM
Quote from: Kismetic on April 30, 2013, 11:04:55 PM
The problem that I see is that there are about a hundred more interesting, constructive things to be doing in a leadership role than recruiting. GMH's should recruit themselves.
Except you can't do those hundred things if you have no coin, and no crew to help further your goals.
When I played a sponsored leadership GMH role, I fired most of the crew I had inherited. I think I might've hired 3 replacements, in the 1+ years I played that character. I didn't WANT a crew, I wanted to be that gumball machine who gets involved by virtue of the fact that I was there, I was efficient, and I was able to meet the customers' needs. Just by doing that alone - I got tugged into plotlines. I didn't need a crew for that. I did need a couple of trusted underlings, and I had them - throughout almost the entire time I played the PC.
What I did - instead of having hirelings that I had to watch like a hawk because they're all thieves out to steal our house's stuff and can't be trusted alone, ever (that was just part of her personality)...
I hired per-diem people. I'd find Joe Grebber coming in from a day at the obsidian mines, and tell him I'd give him 5 sids more per piece for the next 50 pieces of obsidian he brought in, than the templar would pay him at the shop.
I'd find an independant hunter who was just starting out but showed promise - and offer to buy the tregil skins and any blocky stones he brought in.
I'd find the local would-be cut-throat and tell him I'd give him 50 sids if he could identify WHO was renting the apartment that he robbed yesterday, and another 100 sids if he could let me know if that person complains to a templar about it - and which templar he's complaining to.
I'd sponsor a noob for the Byn - I'd pay the 300 sids fee for them to hire him, on the condition that I get first dibs on him once he completes his recruit year. They never lasted - so it was usually a good bet that spread the sids around, got me quicker access to the Byn when I needed to hire them for a contract job, and even if that noob survived, I'd end up with a hireling who already know the basics of Armageddon syntax AND which end of the sword was the cutting end.
I don't like the feeling that I "should" hire people. I don't like that kind of pressure. Especially since, once you hire a crew, you need them to earn their keep. And if you're too busy hobnobbing with nobles and the last crafter you hired walked out of the city alone and got killed by a silt horror, there's really nothing for your crew to DO other than spar. You certainly don't need any more raw materials - your store-room is bursting with them and there's codedly no more room for another feather.
So I'd rather be in a position where I don't have to worry about a crew, or be responsible for them, or deal with crew-based drama. For that reason, I find independent RP much more satisfying.
I think the OP has some valid points.
It's difficult to play a leader in a clan when no one (few) seem interested in playing in clans.
Why should one play in a clan when you can make a ton of $$ food/water outside of the clan?
You don't have intsta-enemies as well (granted you also don't have insta-friends).
Life IS better outside of the clan in that sense.
Things that could make clans more desirable would be reducing profit on raw goods (as they have done with gith gear), reducing access to
clean water (or make it more dangerous), players could practice more banditry to encourage grouping of PCs rather than solo hunters and such.
Another thing would be to require crafters to actually have a decent set-up to make goods - tanning vats, looms, gear that is incredibly tough to
carry because they are big and bulky (if not also expensive). Suddenly clans with permanent installations will be very useful.
In my own case, while I occasionally play in a clan, I do a piss-poor job of it because RL prevents me for hanging out for scheduled RP. Not going to happen.
I bet there are a number of folks in that situation as well.
One thing I try to do as a leader is to be understanding about rl obligations. Players should never feel guilty about their play schedule. All I care about is what you do when you're on.
I don't like to play in a clan because if I want to spend 2 IC days talking to, kanking, or otherwise engaging in player-to-player interaction, I have no desire to cut on that and leave to go change my ldesc and throw out masturbatory emotes to an empty of interaction room that is no fun unless my character is feeling particularly introspective.
Quote from: TheBadSeed on April 30, 2013, 11:26:47 PM
That being said, I think hunting opportunities in the south, or lack there of, is one of the primary reasons the south has failed to have much of a presence as far as GMH's are concerned. I've seen many, many try and be house hunters in the south, only to die as soon as they actually try doing it.
It's funny because my northen Kadian lasted all of three days whereas my southen Salarri is my longest lived character to date.
I agree with Allanak's outdoors being harsh though. It very much is part of the setting, but even so the difference is rather pronounced indeed.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on May 01, 2013, 09:21:54 AM
I don't like to play in a clan because if I want to spend 2 IC days talking to, kanking, or otherwise engaging in player-to-player interaction, I have no desire to cut on that and leave to go change my ldesc and throw out masturbatory emotes to an empty of interaction room that is no fun unless my character is feeling particularly introspective.
wut
Quote from: X-D on April 30, 2013, 12:44:50 PM
I don't know, I really think all of you are wrong.
The amount of coin my PC makes has never been a reason to join or not join a house...of any kind. And I really think that most players, you all included are really the same way.
(edited for brevity, go back and read it if you haven't)
The only problem I have seen with clans...recently, is that Almost NONE of you leader types are really pushing the recruiting...
Quote from: Refugee on April 30, 2013, 11:21:02 PM
I've played a very successful, long-lived independent hunter. I played a GMH hunter for a short time. It was excruciating.
It's not about the money.
(edited for brevity, if you haven't go back and read it)
If I make a hunter PC I don't want to spend ten hours a day in a tavern. I want to get outside and do stuff. Even if I get killed doing it.
I think X-D and Refugee are spot on correct here. It's almost never about the money; it's about fun, activity and leadership (both real and perceived).
No one want's to sit around in a tavern for hours because the clan they have joined doesn't have regular activities for them, because they are waiting to be recruited or they waiting to find out who they can go to for recruitment. I've found that last situation one to be the worst, occasionally I've come across the situation where people don't seem to know who you can go to for recruitment even within their own house! You ask Hunter B who you should ask for recruitment, you get told talk to Family Member Y who when you contact says Hunt Master X who turns out to be only in the north while you're in the south and then directs you to - you guessed it - Hunter B.
Leaders need to be out there recruiting, as X-D says, or better yet they should be having the minions they've recruited out there looking for potential recruits for their GMH. This way you get new minions who are on at roughly the same time as your current minions, who hang out in the same places as your current minions and who are the kind of people your current minions want to associate with. These things work together to build a team that wants to stay together and work with each other. How do you keep a group like this together and interested in recruiting more minions? X-D and Refugee again have given you the answers, make sure that your minions have ample opportunity to be doing what they were hired to do! At least two or three times a week so minions can make at least on of them. Now you have a hopping, bopping group becoming something people -want- to join! The moment the fun and activity stops though is when you'll have people breaking off to do their own thing.
Also as people have said - Be the change you want. You want a GMH to be more desirous you don't even need to be a leader to do it. Work as hard as you can to find a leader and beg, grovel or bribe your way in at the bottom rung then start being the best damned employee the GMH has ever had, recruit your own fellow minions by lying about all the fun you're having and getting them to bug your leader while you keep telling the leader how the GMH really needs these people since they are so awesome, and schedule your own events to do what you're supposed to be doing. Your leader will either see what you're doing and start accommodating it which is what you wanted all along -or- they won't you can use that to prove to their superiors that you're the reason the GMH has had a rise in prosperity and you'll get a promotion to a position where you can get what you wanted all along. Win-win!
The only time when this is almost impossible is when you're an off-peak where usually you only see 5-10 people online and the only other people you usually see in your area are a creepy half-breed who makes a living by shoveling dung and a crazy dwarf who is desperately focused on finding a dwarf women for hot lovings. Then yes by all means go nuts making as much 'sid as you can as an independent hunter! As someone who often finds himself in this position I usually don't join a GMH when I am because I'll be solo-sparring and sitting in an empty tavern for hours. If you ever find a reasonable person who starts showing up at that time with you though, befriend them and if you want to GMH then do it together!
Quote from: Patuk on May 01, 2013, 10:21:14 AM
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on May 01, 2013, 09:21:54 AM
I don't like to play in a clan because if I want to spend 2 IC days talking to, kanking, or otherwise engaging in player-to-player interaction, I have no desire to cut on that and leave to go change my ldesc and throw out masturbatory emotes to an empty of interaction room that is no fun unless my character is feeling particularly introspective.
wut
The actual clan schedule. It sucks to not be able to interact with people due to training that's IC to attend during times when there's like 4 other people on and you want someone to interact with. It's fine and good until you're dealing with it personally, then it's just awful.
People need 2 full days to mudsexxors instead of an IC night.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on May 01, 2013, 11:30:25 AM
Quote from: Patuk on May 01, 2013, 10:21:14 AM
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on May 01, 2013, 09:21:54 AM
I don't like to play in a clan because if I want to spend 2 IC days talking to, kanking, or otherwise engaging in player-to-player interaction, I have no desire to cut on that and leave to go change my ldesc and throw out masturbatory emotes to an empty of interaction room that is no fun unless my character is feeling particularly introspective.
wut
The actual clan schedule. It sucks to not be able to interact with people due to training that's IC to attend during times when there's like 4 other people on and you want someone to interact with. It's fine and good until you're dealing with it personally, then it's just awful.
.. Your time zone is a lot more peak than mine, so you don't have to tell
me what this is like. Have you ever considered that there's clans without such stringent schedules? Have you ever considered that maybe, possibly, boredom and skipping schedules are IC phenomena as well, the consequences of which I've dealt with ICly and which can serve as sources of RP and in-organisation conflict as well?
I had a soldier who'd ask the other privates to cover for him when he skipped work to hang out. And they enjoyed being included and teasing him after.
I'm going to post my opinion, at the risk of being flamed. My opinion is from one of the people that NEVER joins GMH's, and has no desire to.
As I see it: GMH hires on said hunter and says 'We'll pay you nothing (or some very low sum) and in return, you bring back every single thing you hunt and deposit it. If you sell any of it, you're stealing from us. Additionally, we want to sign you on for a five year contract.
But hey, you get free food and water and a place to keep your stuff."
Maybe this has changed, but this is what turned me off from GMH. The RP was substandard and consisted of a couple of players going on hunts together. The lure was getting the 'discount' until I realized that as an independent hunter, I could pay full price and still get it ten
times faster. Yes, people want nice gear that makes them feel as if they've accomplished something. It's a matter of pride, at least for me. The five year contract, in my opinion, is ridiculous, and second only to being lifesworn. We're talking almost a RL year, devoted to this clan, when your likelihood of living that long is slim to none. The food and water? I personally think it's way too easy to gather your own food and water as a hunter (which is what these GMH's are primarily having a hard time recruiting). I struggle often to roleplay a hunter who doesn't believe in waste, and the inability to sell/eat all of what I bring in, even when I take it easy on hunting. Water is relatively easy to get, and if you can't get it naturally you can buy it from 12 different sources with the huge amounts of coin that come in. Flame away if you like, but it's very hard to play a POOR hunter.
So as not to be solely negative, I'd like to offer a suggestion to those who might play GMH leaders in the future (I've only played one GMH leader and wish I'd done this myself back then). Give PC's the best of both worlds. Determine what items (2-3) are needed by the clan. Let us say, for the purpose of this example, it's duskhorn hides, feathers and inix shell. Stipulate that these items MUST be turned in, but otherwise they can sell what they kill. Still offer them the discount on goods. Change what needs to be brought in weekly, or twice a week, or whatever is needed. Pay them nothing, since they'll be generating their own income, but give them bonuses in the form of rare gear that isn't easily purchased outside the clan. Appeal to their since of 'Oh yeah, see me? I have these super elite bracers on - I'm a badass.' Deny it all you want, but that's what drives a lot of people.
I also think GMH's should try harder to control their so called monopolies. You see an independent hunter supplying everyone and their mother with arrows cheaper then yours as a Salarri? Kill him. Or kidnap him, take a finger, and tell him if you ever catch him selling arrows again, you'll take more then just a finger the next time. Anyway, just my two cents.
^ wisdom.
I agree with X-D in generally people will play where they feel they get the most out of the game. If a merchant house reaches critical mass and manages to give its employees lots of fun and engrossing things to do and be apart of, you will see this problem vanish.
I played in a GMH only once in the last 13 years and I noticed the clan was all but dead, and the leader was not inspired to either actively recruit or give current clannies interesting tasks and it got me thinking how this could be fixed. a GMH should inherently have fun to do tasks built in that drive interaction and hopefully conflict so a GMH leader doesn't have to wrack their brains to force plots.
So here's the idea I came up with to enable both interaction, exciting activity, and CONFLICT that will both drive people to join GMH's and make life a little more realistically difficult for independants
POACHING
GMH's band together to petition the cities that in certain areas/certain animals are illegal to hunt if you are not a member of a GMH. In return GMH's share the responsibility to police the various areas where these animals reside. GMH's are empowered to search and/or dole out justice to any unaffiliated dune hopper they come across that is suspected of poaching.
Hunters in all the houses will be expected to pull double duty as both soldiers and hunters in this regard, and both houses would begin to build out their military wings to enforce their newfound hunting monopolies. Wages remain low for hunters, but now the alternative is either join a GMH, be an outlaw, or be marginalized to hunt shitty game in more dangerous far away areas.
Poaching laws are nothing new either, I've seen them try to be implemented in the north before, but they never lasted long as only single nobles without much player backing would try to enforce those laws. I'd really like to see something like this more institutionalized though because it would have the consequences of making life harder, but not impossible for an indy hunter, would give GMH'ers are more realistic advantage over indy hunters and make those roles more appealing, and it would generate tons of conflict.
Isn't merchant house popularity cyclical? Haven't a lot of us been around when they WERE popular, and shouldn't it be easy to remember what was different then from now?
If a House starts trying to enforce poaching rules, it's going to be bloody and likely won't look pretty for those poor newb hunters struggling to pull it off against these indies.
Unfortunately for the merchant houses, the player community does not support you. Those vehement anti-merchant house indies are mostly sick of the bullshit they've dealt with in playing in them in the past, and don't find the effort required to fix it themselves worth it enough to bother.
Once a player realizes the RP in a merchant house is unlikely to be enjoyable for them, that's one less possible recruit for them for that (or all) merchant houses for that PC. As bad impressions and crappy times are had by more and more people, then the problem deepens.
The solution part one: shut down some merchant houses to players for some time period, similar to what happened to Nenyuk. I highly recommend closing Kadius for some time. Salarr had a few diehards in it that keep it going, and people generally want Salarr around. But Kadius has had a shitty rap for a long time now and it's time to shelf it for a while.
Solution part two: don't oppress the indies, SUPPORT them. The indies are saying what they want, denying them that is just going to turn them off from the game entirely. I know of several plots and goals of independents right now. I would like to see them succeed, and if they don't, I don't want it to be because an immortal told them, " in this game setting it would be very hard to compete against merchant houses blah blah you can't get what you want no I don't care that 5 active PCs support you."
Just some suggestions.
edited for clarity
Quote from: Harmless on May 01, 2013, 01:58:54 PM
If a House starts trying to enforce poaching rules, it's going to be bloody and likely won't look pretty for those poor newb hunters struggling to pull it off against these indies.
Solution part two: don't oppress the indies, SUPPORT them. The indies are saying what they want, denying them that is just going to turn them off from the game entirely. I know of several plots and goals of independents right now. I would like to see them succeed, and if they don't, I don't want it to be because an immortal told them, " in this game setting it would be very hard to compete against merchant houses blah blah you can't get what you want no I don't care that 5 active PCs support you."
Just some suggestions.
It being bloody and messy and tough is generally the idea. Conflict is actually fun. Successful indies tend to be more experienced players, which is exactly why I think they could handle a situation in which it is more difficult to be successful as an indie. Also putting them in an outlaw situation would possibly make being an outlaw a bit more common and maybe help with that problem of the world ganging up so much on the few people who do play outlaws.
My suggestion isn't to make being indy impossible, just to make it HARDER and to make joining a GMH more appealing.
I am in complete support of Merchant Houses being more ruthless. I don't know so much about the north (as I did not like playing there the one time I tried it) but in Allanak, its all about putting the squeeze on folks who try and mess up your business. No I don't think indies should ever be told 'You can't do that cause blah blah blah" But equally someone should be putting obsticals in there way and that someone should be merchant houses. Start refusing to serve people who deal with indies, ect... Bribe, Cheat, Steal, Kill, stop with all the nicey niceness.
I don't disagree that the indy hunters can handle the poaching idea (bloodbath), but I disagree that it will attract people to being on the Merchant House side of that conflict. I can't be sure obviously, but I just feel it wouldn't help, because the interest and excitement of the conflict will be balanced by Houses losing their precious hunters. Attrition rates will go up (though I agree that being PKed is far better than another carru death). In other words, I see this creating a temporary spark of bloody interest but eventually I think the House would realize the reward for this enforcement is minimal and we'll be back to where we started. Just my two sids.
Quote from: Harmless on May 01, 2013, 02:49:52 PM
I don't disagree that the indy hunters can handle the poaching idea (bloodbath), but I disagree that it will attract people to being on the Merchant House side of that conflict. I can't be sure obviously, but I just feel it wouldn't help, because the interest and excitement of the conflict will be balanced by Houses losing their precious hunters. Attrition rates will go up (though I agree that being PKed is far better than another carru death). In other words, I see this creating a temporary spark of bloody interest but eventually I think the House would realize the reward for this enforcement is minimal and we'll be back to where we started. Just my two cents.
I think you're seeing this idea just from the point of conflict and not the whole picture. If the GMH's are empowered as law enforcement in the sands, fighting back against them would be breaking those laws, and a smart GMH hunter would report back to someone in the city that they were approaching someone suspected of poaching. The poacher then would know if he slaughtered this person(s) over a scrab shell, they'd be an outlaw in the very place they were intending to sell the shell.
I'd picture actual conflict on the sands would be rare enough that the threat would always exist to make it exciting, but be rare enough that the sands wouldn't run red with blood.
As someone who has played family roles I acknowledge my part in the problem. I would suggest though that minions are clearer about what they'd like. I have had several rpts people didn't attend or they didn't seem to enjoy. So, guessing what people would like isn't working out as well as hoped. Give your leaders some broad hints. Help them help you
Quote from: Harmless on May 01, 2013, 01:58:54 PM
Once a player realizes the RP in a merchant house is unlikely to be enjoyable, that's one less possible recruit for them for a long time. As bad impressions and crappy times are had by more and more people, then the problem deepens.
I don't agree with this. I'm not sure if its intentional, but you're painting a picture that playing in a GMH is not fun for anyone, ever, and that is simply not the case. As with all clans (or lack thereof) your experience is highly dependent on the people around you.
Both times I have played in a GMH, there have been a core group of people who made stuff happen, who had constant conflict driving their shenanigans, they dragged other people into their messes, and it was awesome. When people say "GMH drama" they must mean something other than the kind I have experienced, because that drama to me is getting embroiled in Agent X's deep hatred of GMH B's Merchant Y, which leads to your char having to go looking for willing assassins, while trying to find out how to help Sergeant Z drum up an ungodly sum of coins to pay off the Templar he accidentally infuriated, all while some sharp that you're trying not to insult, but that is SO annoying is filling your head with demands for songbirds and weird crap you don't sell. And then you all blow off that steam while getting hammered together.
Half the beauty of playing in a GMH vs a noble or militia clan is that there isn't an enforced separation between the leaders and the followers. They may get paid more than you, you may have to fill
their cup at the company rager, but they can still associate with you, even "be friends" to a point. Anything with greater rank disparity, not so much.
Quote from: Ender on May 01, 2013, 02:07:51 PM
It being bloody and messy and tough is generally the idea. Conflict is actually fun. Successful indies tend to be more experienced players, which is exactly why I think they could handle a situation in which it is more difficult to be successful as an indie. Also putting them in an outlaw situation would possibly make being an outlaw a bit more common and maybe help with that problem of the world ganging up so much on the few people who do play outlaws.
My suggestion isn't to make being indy impossible, just to make it HARDER and to make joining a GMH more appealing.
I couldn't endorse this more. And honestly, I think that it's less about making life harder for the independent and more about giving something really fun for your clan members to do. Making life hard on the independent ICly is making fun for both the GMH /and/ the independent OOCly. It's a win/win.
Once you're doing this sort of thing people will join your house because they want in on the action.
Quote from: Ender on May 01, 2013, 03:11:22 PM
I think you're seeing this idea just from the point of conflict and not the whole picture. If the GMH's are empowered as law enforcement in the sands, fighting back against them would be breaking those laws, and a smart GMH hunter would report back to someone in the city that they were approaching someone suspected of poaching. The poacher then would know if he slaughtered this person(s) over a scrab shell, they'd be an outlaw in the very place they were intending to sell the shell.
I'd picture actual conflict on the sands would be rare enough that the threat would always exist to make it exciting, but be rare enough that the sands wouldn't run red with blood.
And if the sands ran red with blood every once in a while, are we really going to complain /that/ much? Having a few flare ups every once in a while would be fun.
Poachers could be the new raiders, except yah know with a slightly less severe penalty than death associated.
I sort of agree with the OP but my idea of a solution is pretty simple: make sponsored roles and regular apps or special apps or whatever you need to be a family member or whatever, make them more appealing, give those poor gumball machines some space so they feel more like the relatively priviledged persons that they are. I'm pretty sure that most pc family members are virtually worthless or almost so to their house, so there will always be a gumball machine aspect to their lives in some sense. But they're still in the family, and should have lots of perks and time off, like specific days in the week off, which the House allows them to take, breakable only by the whims of nobility, templars, and soldiers in leadership positions.
My experiences with merchant houses as a non-family member have been sort of weird; as a crafter, sometimes I could basically take the House's food and go sit at the bar for the entirety of peak time, and not do coded work at all if I didn't OOCly feel like it, and other times I've been forced to do the Byn song and dance, except with one crafting skill, sitting alone or with one or two other people inside the compound for 90% of my playtime, left basically to either skill up or go afk. Because I played with the first experience, first, playing the second way was bewildering and I don't know why that existed as a pattern because it benefitted nothing. I remember one time being someone who wanted to join a merchant house as a crafter, was asked what they wanted to do in the house, told the truth, and was met with mild disbelief, probably due to that player's prior experiences with merchant house crafters.
I think a lot of the current empty roles in game that one would expect to be filled at least part of the time, are empty because of the story moving and shaking that's going on now, and by their nature many of these roles are immobile and have to be lucky to have the correct interests to be involved.
As for being selective about who you allow into a merchant house--- if they're someone who logically has a chance, I don't see why one wouldn't hire them and give them a shot, especially those individuals who have been labeled as potential trouble, but are obviously putting on the right face in order to get in. Trouble is conflict is story. Its fun as hell to be after the full-status crafter who had a wild moment of avarice and ran off with twenty-five cut diamonds. And to me, getting into merchant houses is story progression, character enrichment. Not letting someone in, who fits the right criteria (humans only for certain Kadian positions, etc.) who is obviously trying to get in, and then not letting them in, makes no sense to me. Merchant houses are exclusive, you're a lucky duck for getting in, don't forget that, but trying to make that point through the sacrifice of another pc's OOC desires rather than through the other twenty dirty vnpcs you saw in interviews this week doesn't make sense to me.
Quote from: Narf on May 01, 2013, 03:54:23 PM
And if the sands ran red with blood every once in a while, are we really going to complain /that/ much? Having a few flare ups every once in a while would be fun.
Poachers could be the new raiders, except yah know with a slightly less severe penalty than death associated.
I sure wouldn't complain.
In the end this idea is just an example of how a plot that could be completely conceived and furthered ICly, not necessarily what I expect to happen. I would love it though :)
It's up to players to really come up with ideas and further them to make their respective organizations more attractive to potential employees.
I think it is still just the matter of a broken economy code or lack thereof.
I personally think the shopkeepers should be save rooms. Sort of like the old diku also where you can sell maybe more than five items but the price has now gone to shit for a long long time.
So the independents will have to scramble more as it's now harder to get things not full up. People will see Merchant Houses as more attractive or even needed to survive. Limit salt foraging profits possibly a little more and definitely correct the obscene Red Storm crafting coin production.
I'd be fine with limiting the Red Storm crafter profits if the skimmers weren't so expensive for crying out loud. I could see all of them getting a 30% price cut and still being realistic, perhaps even 50-60% cut.
Quote from: James de Monet on May 01, 2013, 03:31:30 PM
I don't agree with this. I'm not sure if its intentional, but you're painting a picture that playing in a GMH is not fun for anyone, ever, and that is simply not the case. As with all clans (or lack thereof) your experience is highly dependent on the people around you.
I meant that if 10 people join a house this year and 4 have bad experiences, the next year those four are less likely to bother trying again and that it is additive over time, especially for experienced players. I definitely did not mean to imply what you said.
I've played a crafter in a mercant house and an indy merchant. Both made the same in regards to coins. Playing an indy was just to see if I could do it and my IC concept fit that (and seeing how long I could make it). It had nothing to do with 'beating the game." I've had characters that barely made enough for food and water and some that had it easy. Just all a different playing experience.
Can't say I dislike or liked either way more or less. It was just different.
Without posting too many details, there seem to be a lot of perks that go with being a part of an organization and maybe if they weren't as picky they'd have more members (I can think of one already), which would make things more interesting which would result in... More members.
I find that I usually end up detesting GMH's, and other clans, the whole not leaving the cities for however long it takes you to get up a rank is the main reason. I mostly play off peak times, with a few days on peak, yet still find for the most part I'm stuck inside endlessly beating a dummy that does nothing back, doesn't help get a bump on skills I generally don't worry all that much about. It's the none interectaction that gets me.
I for one would love to see a training dummy fight back, or at least do something in return for my mindlessly pummeling him for ig hours.
I feel it would also lessen my habits of oops forgot about training, or what ever. Though on the same path I had a leader that once h/she felt my pc was competent enough to survive a foray or three out in the wild, give me a test to make sure. once passed I was allowed to go out and even take a few other 'recruits' out on brief forays. I loved that leader, and that pc. Because it solved a couple problems at once, one I could slip away during the off-peak times, as well as take some of the like wise bored off-peakers out for a hunt, or 'training'.
The amount of trouble that pc stirred up for his GMH probably had some pulling out their hair, but it was fun even when getting chewed out by a superior for his less then polite way of telling people to shut it.
I feel that alot of the issues that I've read on here can be solved, by testing one or two promising recruits that are A. either around more, B. on around off peak time to pull in those pesky off-peakers, or C. give them some hope of being able to do something. If your bored and its your scheduled day off maybe try to find a little trouble to get into, stir up some form of negative/positive rp with someone.
again this is just my two sids.
Quote from: Ender on May 01, 2013, 02:07:51 PM
Conflict is actually fun.
Conflict with people who can actually fight is fun.
Conflict against a few, random interlopers is not fun.
Indies would need a bit more organization before stomping the peasants can actually be considered viable.
Organization and structure is an advantage of the GMHs.
Quote from: Dalmeth on May 02, 2013, 03:23:06 PM
Quote from: Ender on May 01, 2013, 02:07:51 PM
Conflict is actually fun.
Conflict with people who can actually fight is fun.
Conflict against a few, random interlopers is not fun.
Indies would need a bit more organization before stomping the peasants can actually be considered viable.
Or they could hide their activities, which doesn't require them to be tough or organized and is probably a lot more realistic given the intent of the game world.
I have had a good time in at least one of GMH in the past few years. It takes a few things..active competent leader(s) and a few active players. I agree with Ender that Gmh should be using their influences to put pressures on anyone who isn't them. That is something that could and should be done in game. Something that could be accomplished by an active competent leader.
I'd be all for GMHs applying pressure on rival independants. Be it with 'hunting accidents' or political clout.
I've been in a GMH and had no problem pulling in recruits.
I've been a Byn Sergeant twice and had no problem pulling in recruits.
I've been many independents and had no problem getting people to follow me to the unknown.
Its the leader.
If you don't have players in your GMH, its probably you.
Holy cow, has anyone ever had trouble getting recruits in the Byn?
:o
Quote from: Refugee on May 03, 2013, 12:54:13 AM
Holy cow, has anyone ever had trouble getting recruits in the Byn?
:o
There used to be a lot more competition for recruits by both the great houses and the nobility. Combine that with fewer players, and I'll bet the Byn had times where they struggled for recruits.
There has been.
Yes, a lot of players flock to the Byn, but I think sometimes people want to find overly drawn out complicated solutions to a simple problem.
Get a better leader or join the GMH yourself if its a huge deal.
Quote from: sprucebark on May 03, 2013, 12:36:05 AM
I've been in a GMH and had no problem pulling in recruits.
I've been a Byn Sergeant twice and had no problem pulling in recruits.
I've been many independents and had no problem getting people to follow me to the unknown.
Its the leader.
If you don't have players in your GMH, its probably you.
I never had much of a problem recruiting in any of the leadership roles I've earned or taken. The problem is always the seemingly normal people you hire turning into crazed weirdos because ... who knows why any of you do what you do? It's such a burnout feeling never finding more than a few lasting permanents.
Where have all the cowboys gone? :(
I definitely think clan retention is the biggest issue, and the sheer number of indies (by virtue of having the largest number of clan immortals) doesn't seem that much of a problem. It's more likely that you played in a clan, died in two weeks, and are either jaded on clans after a number of go-rounds, or you don't want to join the same clan twice in a row. Or something like that.
Is that an accurate assessment?
Yeah, new members of clans have an appalingly high mortality rate. Between deaths actually doing their job, deserters, people who get in trouble with The Law, people who simply vanish and hilarious accidents, it's a tough job keeping folks alive.
Worth it though, for the lucky and/or skilled few who make it.
I have a lot of respect for clan leaders. It's hard work, but I've had the good fortune of having only good experiences under clan leaders I have played with.
Quote from: BleakOne on May 03, 2013, 03:45:47 AM
It's hard work, but I've had the good fortune of having only good experiences under clan leaders I have played with.
I think I have, too. I'm trying to think of anyone who really ruined my day, and I can only think of one instance that was seemingly OOC in nature, and it was a situation that fortunately closed the books on the offending character.
I think if a leader is giving effort, then it's all pretty good. Some people like chocolate, some people like vanilla, but we can usually dig what you're cooking.
Quote from: BleakOne on May 03, 2013, 03:45:47 AM
Yeah, new members of clans have an appalingly high mortality rate. Between deaths actually doing their job, deserters, people who get in trouble with The Law, people who simply vanish and hilarious accidents, it's a tough job keeping folks alive.
Worth it though, for the lucky and/or skilled few who make it.
I have a lot of respect for clan leaders. It's hard work, but I've had the good fortune of having only good experiences under clan leaders I have played with.
Daww. This makes me happy. All the way back from when you were shiny and new.
Quote from: racurtne on May 03, 2013, 05:49:18 AM
Quote from: BleakOne on May 03, 2013, 03:45:47 AM
Yeah, new members of clans have an appalingly high mortality rate. Between deaths actually doing their job, deserters, people who get in trouble with The Law, people who simply vanish and hilarious accidents, it's a tough job keeping folks alive.
Worth it though, for the lucky and/or skilled few who make it.
I have a lot of respect for clan leaders. It's hard work, but I've had the good fortune of having only good experiences under clan leaders I have played with.
Daww. This makes me happy. All the way back from when you were shiny and new.
Fun times. :)
There's a few things going on that are contributing to this, I suspect
- There are far fewer open clans than there used to be. I remember days in the game years back when there were clan members from Borsail, Oash, Tor, Salarr, Fale, the Templarate, Legion, the Atrium, the Guild, the Tor Academy, plus the Byn... all at the same time. Magicker PCs used to get hired by houses. Every Noble needed Aides to carry out his business. And in addition to the houses, there were the tribes. ATV and Soh, Gypsies, Kurac. People were everywhere in the known. And that doesn't even include Tuluki tribes, the smaller Human tribes, and player-created Tribes.
And then people started complaining about a sparse population and over time that viewpoint has been accepted, to the point that now a lot of the remote tribes are closed and there is a concerted effort to concentrate the playerbase so people will be bored less. It is at once both better and worse; the diversity has gone down, but there are always people to interact with.
- The introduction of jobs: selling dung, salt, obsidian, glass, lumber. A bad month doing anything else as an independent can still be a highly profitable one thanks to grebbing. That wasn't always the case. Lean times seem to be a thing of the past. And grebbing always pays immediately, no waiting 30 actual RL days to get a 600 sid salary when you could earn 4x that as an independent.
Day 1 sparring with a dummy: emotes galore.
Day 2 sparring with a dummy: uhh..ok, throw out an emote or two.
Day 3 sparring with a dummy: Sudoku in the other window
Day 4 Rebel - at this point I honestly did not care if the clan killed that pc, I just wasn't going to solo spar anymore.
That's why I don't join GMH's. If I do, the pc will already be trained.
The land around the large cities belongs to the kings and nobles, not GMH's. So why do you think GMH's should be policing it?
A lot of indies hunt for lord fancypants or his minions anyway.
A lot of posts claim roughing up these indies will create conflict. Sure, but I disagree with your assumption that it is fun.
Some people like PvE, others like PvP, some people like physical violence in their game, others want a Tuluki fashion walk off.
You can't control what people enjoy.
Find a carrot, not stick.
Some ideas that might make GMH's more interesting:
1. Bring back "Clan Who", gives clans a strong advantage. You practically have it with the gdb clan boards and seeing who is online anyway. This way it wouldn't have that icky ooc feeling to it.
2. GMHs could have some apartments set aside for their employees (not in the compound but actual apartments). Beats waiting in line for one to come open and I think having an apartment and decking it out is what drives most indies anyway.
3. Give Salarri and Kadians their own outpost somewhere?
The carrot in this case, in my opinion, is that GMH membership (and clan membership in general, really) gives greater access to plots and the potential to be involved in things that being independent simply will not provide in most cases.
Players may enjoy playing strings of short-lived indie characters, or clanned characters whose players get bored and end up doing whatever they want, and that's fine. We all play this game to have fun, after all. They just wouldn't have the right to complain about not being able to fit in and join plots with other PCs, since that actually does take time, patience, being somewhat careful, and often, joining a clan.
Quote from: Cutthroat on May 03, 2013, 07:30:51 AM
The carrot in this case, in my opinion, is that GMH membership (and clan membership in general, really) gives greater access to plots and the potential to be involved in things that being independent simply will not provide in most cases.
Players may enjoy playing strings of short-lived indie characters, or clanned characters whose players get bored and end up doing whatever they want, and that's fine. We all play this game to have fun, after all. They just wouldn't have the right to complain about not being able to fit in and join plots with other PCs, since that actually does take time, patience, being somewhat careful, and often, joining a clan.
I find that your supposition used to be the case (GMH membership gives greater access to plots and potential that indies don't have). I find, however, that it is no longer true. I have been involved in MORE plotlines by AVOIDING membership in GMHs, than I have in being a member of one. And in one case, I was involved -despite- membership, and not -because- of it.
Unless of course by "involved" and "plotlines" you mean "having to deal with in-house stupidity created by drama-queens who create drama just so that they can be the center of attention, and not because they actually have anything important to contribute."
I think at least leader PCs should have clan who. They have enough to do without having to waste time trying to find minds of logged-off people when they're trying to involve/use their minions.
Quote from: Booya on May 03, 2013, 08:36:38 AM
I think at least leader PCs should have clan who. They have enough to do without having to waste time trying to find minds of logged-off people when they're trying to involve/use their minions.
I like this. Explain it how you want: leaders having greater access to clan reports and checkins from v/npcs, whatever.
Quote from: Morrolan on April 30, 2013, 11:32:22 PM
Quote from: TheBadSeed on April 30, 2013, 11:26:47 PM
If your IC goal is to be the richest badass in the known for a couple of RL weeks, you're better off playing an indie.
This is more how I see it.
This. People like being rich and making coins, but
no one remembers your forgettable and uninteresting character. Independents rarely qualify for the sought-after designation of
badass. I don't care if you know how to ride your beetle out to some plant that makes money.
Who are the characters you hear about time and time again- who have pictures drawn of them? Clan members. I can probably name 10+ characters from each GMH on the spot. I'd be hard pressed to remember any one of your 'slim, agafari-haired mens' as independents.
Quote from: Bogre on May 03, 2013, 08:54:28 AM
This. People like being rich and making coins, but no one remembers your forgettable and uninteresting character. Independents rarely qualify for the sought-after designation of badass. I don't care if you know how to ride your beetle out to some plant that makes money.
Who are the characters you hear about time and time again- who have pictures drawn of them? Clan members. I can probably name 10+ characters from each GMH on the spot. I'd be hard pressed to remember any one of your 'slim, agafari-haired mens' as independents.
Medichi, Khann, and Garrick still agree!
Quote from: Red Ranger on June 27, 2012, 12:59:10 PM
Medichi, Khann, Garrick, and all the other legendary movers and shakers of the gameworld agree. The average PC doesn't live very long. Some manage to get wealthy during that inevitably short period of time, but that doesn't mean that they were Important. In the ossified societies of Zalanthas, mere personal wealth does not equal importance, influence, or power. To me it's as though IRL you could get rich quickly off of digging for gold in minefields with your friends, but that gold won't make you a Senator or a CEO or the chief of police even if it transiently makes your checking account larger than theirs, and it's inevitable that you're gonna get blown to bits soon on one of your gold digs. Of course every player plays for different reasons and derives fun from different in-game activities, and maybe the majority of players have an OOC goal of a large IC bank account, but we seem to be focusing on those IC lunatics that keep going out into the minefield.
I'm personally unopposed to the GMHs adding more mines to the minefield.
Quote from: sprucebark on May 03, 2013, 12:36:05 AM
I've been in a GMH and had no problem pulling in recruits.
I've been a Byn Sergeant twice and had no problem pulling in recruits.
I've been many independents and had no problem getting people to follow me to the unknown.
Its the leader.
If you don't have players in your GMH, its probably you.
I read this and thought : ouch. I've been on all sides of this.
I keep thinking about it though and I have a few things to say on the matter. There are ways minions can help leaders to be the leaders they want.
Keep your eyes open and report back.
Talk about what is needed to provide more fun.
Don't be afraid to reopen discussions, if you can do it without being an ass and making your leader feel their authority is threatened.
By that I mean lets say your recruit wants to go hunt alone
Your leader says no. Chances are that's not a unilateral decision. (This is just hypothetical, and may not apply to any particular house policy. ) maybe no has to do with having been yelled at last week when recruit Jim bob died in a tragic threshing incident just outside the merchant gate in an accident involving a tregil.) instead of deciding your leader sucks, give them a day to think about it then mention your superior byn training, your special tregil sword, the trip your friends are making and the dwindling meat supply and ask if they can't look into an exception.
If you see a plot line they are missing keep giving them the info they need to get involved.
Hey if I suck as a leader, I need to own that, but very few people take sponsored roles intending to suck. Help me or that other guy to be an excellent leader. That may require a bit of tact on your part, but it's probably worth the effort.
QuoteBy that I mean lets say your recruit wants to go hunt alone
Your leader says no. Chances are that's not a unilateral decision. (This is just hypothetical, and may not apply to any particular house policy. ) maybe no has to do with having been yelled at last week when recruit Jim bob died in a tragic threshing incident just outside the merchant gate in an accident involving a tregil.) instead of deciding your leader sucks, give them a day to think about it then mention your superior byn training, your special tregil sword, the trip your friends are making and the dwindling meat supply and ask if they can't look into an exception.
If you see a plot line they are missing keep giving them the info they need to get involved.
Okay let's say that. Except - make sure you wait three RL days to ask, because that's how long it takes to finally get in touch with your clan leader, at a time when he has time to spend actually talking to you, and not on his way to "do something important" or just about to log out or recruiting another clan mate or inbetween classes and only has 3 minutes to RP and wants to know about some other thing and really doesn't want to invest that three minutes listening to you ask your question, let alone answering it.
So you've already been sitting there for 3 RL days, spam-sparring with the dummy and hanging out in the bar where you aren't actually buying anything because you are a recruit and don't get paid yet.
So he says no, on that third day. Wait a day before seeing if they can't look into an exception. But - again - you're waiting three days, not one. So it's been almost a RL week of you hanging out in the bar not spending any money, and spam-sparring with the dummy. And maybe taking your mount out of your clan stable to practice riding, which you're really REALLY good at when you're riding inside the city on paved roads, you never EVER fail, so you can't ever EVER improve. Which is to say - you still suck at it, and you'll continue to suck at it, until they allow you out.
Then on that last day - the 6th day - he says "hm - let me get back to you on that, I'll think it over." And by the time you're sure he's finally come around to let you go hunting alone, his player has stored him - or his RL schedule changes and he no longer can log in when you're logged in. Or his character gets killed. Or you've just said fuck it and have been going out alone anyway because you're just sick of waiting.
I've found it much more productive to simply not ask if I can go out alone. That way they can't tell me no.
Quote from: Lizzie on May 03, 2013, 10:28:56 AM
QuoteBy that I mean lets say your recruit wants to go hunt alone
Your leader says no. Chances are that's not a unilateral decision. (This is just hypothetical, and may not apply to any particular house policy. ) maybe no has to do with having been yelled at last week when recruit Jim bob died in a tragic threshing incident just outside the merchant gate in an accident involving a tregil.) instead of deciding your leader sucks, give them a day to think about it then mention your superior byn training, your special tregil sword, the trip your friends are making and the dwindling meat supply and ask if they can't look into an exception.
If you see a plot line they are missing keep giving them the info they need to get involved.
Okay let's say that. Except - make sure you wait three RL days to ask, because that's how long it takes to finally get in touch with your clan leader, at a time when he has time to spend actually talking to you, and not on his way to "do something important" or just about to log out or recruiting another clan mate or inbetween classes and only has 3 minutes to RP and wants to know about some other thing and really doesn't want to invest that three minutes listening to you ask your question, let alone answering it.
So you've already been sitting there for 3 RL days, spam-sparring with the dummy and hanging out in the bar where you aren't actually buying anything because you are a recruit and don't get paid yet.
So he says no, on that third day. Wait a day before seeing if they can't look into an exception. But - again - you're waiting three days, not one. So it's been almost a RL week of you hanging out in the bar not spending any money, and spam-sparring with the dummy. And maybe taking your mount out of your clan stable to practice riding, which you're really REALLY good at when you're riding inside the city on paved roads, you never EVER fail, so you can't ever EVER improve. Which is to say - you still suck at it, and you'll continue to suck at it, until they allow you out.
Then on that last day - the 6th day - he says "hm - let me get back to you on that, I'll think it over." And by the time you're sure he's finally come around to let you go hunting alone, his player has stored him - or his RL schedule changes and he no longer can log in when you're logged in. Or his character gets killed. Or you've just said fuck it and have been going out alone anyway because you're just sick of waiting.
I've found it much more productive to simply not ask if I can go out alone. That way they can't tell me no.
Oh you're absolutely right. It's much more effective to greet every attempt at addressing issues with skepticism and negativity. We should just put you in charge. We'll play the game as you envision it and like it or leave it. Clearly that would be best.
I tend to agree with Barzalene here. Lizzie, dropping in here with that kind of attitude towards this isn't helping anything. If you can't contribute anything more than negativity, don't contribute.
Quote from: Barzalene on May 03, 2013, 10:35:20 AM
Oh you're absolutely right. It's much more effective to greet every attempt at addressing issues with skepticism and negativity. We should just put you in charge. We'll play the game as you envision it and like it or leave it. Clearly that would be best.
I don't think you're addressing any of the issues. I think a lot of posts I'm reading are filled with surface fixes to a deeper issue. I'm seeing that "one rule fits all" doesn't fit all, doesn't work. You -cannot- apply all the clan rules uniformly with both clans that have a full crew with seasoned players who know how to "be" hunters/merchants/whatever elses, vs. a clan with only one or two members, who are new to the game, vs. a clan with only one or two members, who are seasoned veterans who know how to "be" hunters/merchants/whatever.
And because the rules can't work uniformly, they shouldn't be rules. Guidelines, absolutely. "We prefer that our recruits not venture out alone, HOWEVER recruits who have come into the House with a solid understanding of life outside the city, might go out within the confines of the general territory (north, south, scrub, etc), OR they may go out with hunters from "this or that" clan, with whom we share a cordial relationship."
Or "recruits who can't craft worth shit cannot keep what they sell, because they're using all our materials and running us out at a rapid pace. HOWEVER - recruits who have come to the clan with their own tools, and have brought with them a solid basic understanding of the craft they're seeking to do, may sell up to 5 items per week in a shop that is NOT our own - and keep 10% of the profits of those sales."
Or "recruits who are using their own mounts and covering their own expenses when they go hunting, may sell off ALL of the raw materials that the house doesn't have a standing order for or hasn't specifically asked to collect."
Or "recruits who have proven that they can venture out without getting killed in their first (game) month of clan life, may begin drawing a modest salary of 50 sids per RL week, plus stable fees if they go to a place that doesn't have a house stable. OR - if they prefer, they may have access to a crappy private apartment in the seedier side of the city, rented by the House for employees."
The rules as they were last time I had access to them (which was after they were all changed), were very stifling, and encouraged general isolation, in clans that didn't have a full compliment of crew members. No one wants to be that ONE member of a clan anymore - and the risk of being that one member is pretty high.
I imagine that GMH leaders have the freedom to discuss issues and ideas like that with their staff.
Quote from: Lizzie on May 03, 2013, 10:48:39 AM
Lizzie's concerns.
It seems like most of your concerns have to do with being under a shit clan leader unfortunately. We've all been there. Yes it sucks.
The solution is to not join that clan until they replace that leader. Perhaps even "replace" them yourself?
I've done this a few times, "This guy is hot garbage. I don't know how he got promoted. I'm not making any profits under his shit leadership. Welcome to the axe blade shit leader, I'm next in line for your position." That is completely IC. If this person is standing in the way of you and your character's goals. Make them no longer an obstacle.
If the clan leader isn't logging in/not playing for any meaningful amount of time, you might even submit a report to the clan staff letting them know that the person who accepted their special application role isn't living up to their end of the bargain that is usually tagged onto the role call. "Must be able to play regularly."
While Lizzie could have been more "gentle" with her delivery, I don't think her concerns are invalid. I've played under those conditions and they do suck, but I don't think the conditions are necessarily a result of bad GMH policies, but have more to do with just having the bad luck of getting a bad leader.
If it is a House Family member, keep off'ing those suckers until one gets approved for play that does their job. :)
Quote from: Desertman on May 03, 2013, 11:09:47 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on May 03, 2013, 10:48:39 AM
Lizzie's concerns.
It seems like most of your concerns have to do with being under a shit clan leader unfortunately. We've all been there. Yes it sucks.
The solution is to not join that clan until they replace that leader. Perhaps even "replace" them yourself?
I've done this a few times, "This guy is hot garbage. I don't know how he got promoted. I'm not making any profits under his shit leadership. Welcome to the axe blade shit leader, I'm next in line for your position." That is completely IC. If this person is standing in the way of you and your character's goals. Make them no longer an obstacle.
If the clan leader isn't logging in/not playing for any meaningful amount of time, you might even submit a report to the clan staff letting them know that the person who accepted their special application role isn't living up to their end of the bargain that is usually tagged onto the role call. "Must be able to play regularly."
While Lizzie could have been more "gentle" with her delivery, I don't think her concerns are invalid. I've played under those conditions and they do suck, but I don't think the conditions are necessarily a result of bad GMH policies, but have more to do with just having the bad luck of getting a bad leader.
If it is a House Family member, keep off'ing those suckers until one gets approved for play that does their job. :)
Definitely my suggestion isn't the great fix for all problems. What you say has validity. It might be the fix for some problems. If you see another player is making a good faith effort to do well as a leader but not succeeding there could be a benefit to reaching out to help them get there.
I may be in the minority, but I've commonly given my clan authorities the big "F-U" when their rules interfere with the purpose of the clan. When I need materials, when I need information, I get them any way I can.
And that's the trick. So long as you provide help to your other clan members, you can get away with a lot.
Also, never getting caught in the act helps a bunch.
Quote from: Dalmeth on May 03, 2013, 11:53:12 AM
I may be in the minority, but I've commonly given my clan authorities the big "F-U" when their rules interfere with the purpose of the clan. When I need materials, when I need information, I get them any way I can.
And that's the trick. So long as you provide help to your other clan members, you can get away with a lot.
Also, never getting caught in the act helps a bunch.
As long as it is IC for the character, great fun. If its just the player not getting what they need, meh.
Seems a lot comes down to players not liking the recruit period rules. And in reading this post, seems like a lot of folks want to play their GMH employees just like they do their independents. This seems odd to me.
The same flexibility necessary to play a human vs elf vs half-elf vs dwarf vs mul vs half-giant, or to play what can be a more limited role like a magicker, is the same flexibility needed here. Perhaps its a different mindset to how you approach the character, like with the different races. Perhaps it is coming up with creative ways to make the role fun, like it often is with a magicker,
slave, ISO tribe memeber or other roles in inherent limitations.
I think one of the problem ignored is that more and more players are becoming "veterans" of Armageddon. There's a much larger pool of players who now understand exactly what to do and where to go to get their skills up, make a lot of money and which areas to avoid to survive longer, and since the world is very static (economy wise, where "mobs" pop up, where the danger tend to be at), there's probably a lot less need for players to be in GMH's to "survive".
Water is only rare and prized in the docs, not so much in game, the same goes with food..
I think that nowadays, people who play in GMHs tend to go in them for the role itself more than out of need, both for the character and the player. They do so because they WANT to be a Salarr crafter, not because they know that it's their best chance of surviving the harsh world.
You have to wake up and say, today, I will create a Salarr crafter. I will make weapons for Salarr and I will be loyal to Salarr. It's very rare that you spot a desperate hunter in game who's willing to take any jobs just to survive. Usually, people create a character who will be a Salarr crafter and then seek out a Salarr player to join.
Today, I will make a Legion soldier, I will seek out a Templar and I will play a soldier who does not mind spending his time within the walls. It's also very rare I think that you'll find a random PC and convince him to join the Legion, unless the clan is already very popular to begin with.
It's very hard to balance out Armageddon.. Jack up the prices insanely for water and remove all outside source of it and you'll see a major shift toward GMHs, but on the other hand, you'll also screw up the off peak players and the ones who want to d-elves and outsiders.
Just some random food for thought here..
I guess then it all comes down to active leadership.
Right now, there's a lot of active leadership in the independent sector.
Any appeals here made to increase the popularity of GMH should be targeted at getting those skilled leaders back into GMH. However, from where I'm coming from, I prefer those leaders be allowed to do whatever they please, and not feel any pressure from the GDB to join GMH.
After reading all these posts, I do feel that the GMHs have lost some of their luster from the glory days in the 90's. That being said there is still plenty of opportunity to have fun in them. I've read post from numerous people stating that it's more profitable to play an independent than members of the GMHs. I agree that this is true in the short term (which I define as the character's first several RL months). However, after six months or so, I feel the pendulum swings heavily in the other direction. The GMH's members can acquire access to more crafters, NPC guards, wagons, and storage space than any independent. After all, the streets, gardens, and roads aren't usually named after independents.
I've heard lots of players complaining about not being able to do enough when they join the GMH's. I have some advice to offer these people. Before you join a GMHs or any clan, take at least a RL week and see which characters you share common playing times. If you see the same character four times in the same week, you'll eliminate a lot OOC headaches right from the start. Secondly, for your first RL month as a recruit, you are simply going to be bore with some frequency. As a new recruit, try to remember your place in the world. You're new, largely without skill, no important connections, and not influential. Therefore, don't be surprised if your clan leader isn't spending an hour with you every RL night. Instead, contact your boss and ask them what you can do to help or if they need you to help as a bodyguard. Report to your clan leader frequently and demonstrate that you're trying to get things done. If you do this, pretty soon you'll find your leader contacting you. I realize there are a lot of rules, especially at the start. However, recall that the rules will lax with time or you'll have opportunity to bend them. If all else fails, you can always break the rules. There is nothing wrong with doing this. However, realize there can and will be consequences. Laws prohibiting stealing, smuggling, and cheating never stopped a city elf.
I feel the decreased interest in the GMHs comes from a variety of factors. First, the GMHs are clans that are over 20 years old. After you've played a successful family member in a GMH, there isn't a great deal of attraction to draw me back to play another one. This might be true for other players as well. Placing promotional caps on these roles is also a drawback. I always enjoyed high ranking GMH members. I feel Senior Agents and Master Merchants added more to the game than they took away. If these ranks were theoretically obtainable, it might draw more veteran players into their ranks. Obviously, it should be very, very difficult to do, but at least possible. Perhaps the difficulty should be on an order of magnitude as living to become a fully branched sorcerer. Though I'm not sure, I also wager that Tuluk's practice of patronage pulls more people away from the GMHs than the pre-patronage age. This will simply be something that the GMH's leaders have to overcome.
Ender's ideas about enforcing hunting zones and having poachers sounds like a fun a first. However, if this were to start, it would take one talented templar with one or two skilled mages to likely wipe out all independent hunters. The result would be independent hunters living about as long as raiders do. As we know, that's not very long. This isn't particularly fair to off-peak players who don't have the player base to make many clans work. I'd prefer GMHs to try and bully, pressure, or assassinate independents who infringe on their trade monopolies without the templarate doing it for them. I agree that conflict is good, but few want the odds stacked too much against them.
Quote from: williamson on May 03, 2013, 02:18:17 PM
I feel the decreased interest in the GMHs comes from a variety of factors. First, the GMHs are clans that are over 20 years old. After you've played a successful family member in a GMH, there isn't a great deal of attraction to draw me back to play another one. This might be true for other players as well. Placing promotional caps on these roles is also a drawback. I always enjoyed high ranking GMH members. I feel Senior Agents and Master Merchants added more to the game than they took away. If these ranks were theoretically obtainable, it might draw more veteran players into their ranks. Obviously, it should be very, very difficult to do, but at least possible.
These ranks are still attainable.
Quote from: Desertman on May 03, 2013, 11:09:47 AM
If the clan leader isn't logging in/not playing for any meaningful amount of time, you might even submit a report to the clan staff letting them know that the person who accepted their special application role isn't living up to their end of the bargain that is usually tagged onto the role call. "Must be able to play regularly."
I've played leaders of the regular and sponsored variety, and have had the good fortune of a busy job, kids and a social life. I can assure you, the first person to let you know you're coming up short is the clan staff.
It kinda bothers me that there is so much of "I want what I want and I want it NOW" in a world that's supposed to be gritty and difficult. This thread is like Tuluk to the core, populated with posts by people who supposedly don't "get it." How's that for irony?
Quote from: Kismetic on May 03, 2013, 02:47:41 PM
supposed to be
Yeah, I.. I agree, but I'm just going to highlight where exactly things seem to go wrong.
Also, I really like williamson's post. +1, good sir.
Quote from: williamson on May 03, 2013, 02:18:17 PM
Ender's ideas about enforcing hunting zones and having poachers sounds like a fun a first. However, if this were to start, it would take one talented templar with one or two skilled mages to likely wipe out all independent hunters. The result would be independent hunters living about as long as raiders do. As we know, that's not very long. This isn't particularly fair to off-peak players who don't have the player base to make many clans work. I'd prefer GMHs to try and bully, pressure, or assassinate independents who infringe on their trade monopolies without the templarate doing it for them. I agree that conflict is good, but few want the odds stacked too much against them.
Ender didn't suggest the templarate enforce the poaching rules at all, much less with wanton killing. I think most people that have posted in favor of the GMH's making life more difficult for hunters were leaning towards direct unofficial enforcement of the rules.
Actually, in my opinion keeping any 'official lawmakers' out of the equation offers far more potential for interesting conflict because it creates more grey area for the poachers to occupy. They're not officially breaking the law, and thus not just getting arrested and killed, but they are nonetheless pissing off some very powerful groups who will take slightly more indirect (and thus more creative and interesting) means to reign them in.
Throughout this thread we have indicated that the playerbase has a growing veteran % and that might be why indie hunting is currently more popular than GMH. So not only are their more indie hunters but they are possibly older characters with more experienced players versus GMH hunters (with no templar support) who are less in number, likely younger character, and at best more experienced or equally experienced player.
If we moved to a GMH poaching vs. Indies model. The GMHs PC population would be completely wiped out. Unless staff were involved with NPC animations or something or it was illegal and then the city governments could aide the GMHs. If they didn't get wiped out then the indies would be wiped out. It's a very one way or the other model, just like raiding currently is.
Lizzie, I hear what you're saying about how long it can take to get in touch with you clan leadership, but if you are active on your clan boards and not afraid to PM your leadership with requests like, "Hey, I'm bored of sparring. Are there any plotz, special orders, drama, or trouble I can get in on?" if they are even a halfway decent leader OOCly, they will probably try to accommodate you.
It could be the case that they don't have anything going on either, and have been strapped for new, fun ideas lately. At that point, I think it becomes the responsibility of the whole clan to keep things interesting. If you want leaders to involve you in their plots, involve them in yours! They have an easy "not my problem" out if they want it. But if you come to them, begging for a favor because you have problem X, it might just create some action for everyone.
That said, leaders are frequently busy while IG. They have IC responsibilities and niceties, etc they have to observe. You likely have the option to attach yourself at their hip for such things, and especially if you can do it in pairs, or to an event where there will be other PC underlings, it could be a chance to socialize for you, rather than just spar by yourself. I know it feels like minions should be statues while the "important" people are chatting, but if you think it's not COMPLETELY IC for minions to go gossip in the kitchen while fetching treats for Lady M and her guest, or for soldiers to whisper back and forth like ventriloquists while standing at perfect attention, I would have to disagree.
There will be times leaders will be talking about things they don't want you to hear, but especially for nobles and GMH personnel, they should probably be erring on the side of choosing to forget underlings are present, more often than not, as that is the way feudalistic societies work. Servants aren't real people, so they get to hear the juicy gossips, sometimes.
Quote from: Jeshin on May 03, 2013, 03:34:20 PM
If we moved to a GMH poaching vs. Indies model. The GMHs PC population would be completely wiped out. Unless staff were involved with NPC animations or something or it was illegal and then the city governments could aide the GMHs. If they didn't get wiped out then the indies would be wiped out. It's a very one way or the other model, just like raiding currently is.
If it degenerated into direct conflict this might be the case, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. It's different than raiding because no one is explicitly breaking the law, which allows a great deal more subtly and creativity to be used in dealing with the problem.
If I were a GMH leader of a clan that lacked significant manpower I'd probably:
*Try to recruit some heavy hitters, telling them explicitly why they were being hired (Join us, we have something fun that needs doing)
*Bribe some Templars/Soldiers to make life tough for an independent that seems to be flouting my illegitimately assumed authority in a particularly brazen manner
*See if I couldn't put a morratum on dealing with hunters that angered me. (a command for leaders that effectively 'turns off' shops for named characters might be really nice, but even without that you can keep them from getting cool clan-specific gear and masterwork items)
*Buy their mates into my house
*Hire them to go get me some mantis shells.
*Verbally harass them and call into question the non-elfness of their parentage in public with some paid cronies to laugh at my stupid jokes.
*Hire burglars/pickpockets to remind them about the value of having clan lockers
*After my stick got broken, I might try a carrot at some point as well. I heard people like sex money and power, right?
And of course none of these strategies might work, but I'll tell you what; we'd be having fun.
I am seeing alot of 'I would' or 'they should' happening here. Be the change people. If you feel that GMH are not as busy as you want them to be, then play in GMH. Apply for Leadership positions. Do not just point fingers and make the current leaders feel like poopy-poop.
There are some awesome leaders with awesome plots going on GMH.
So I am not derailing. Things I have seen with GMH:
- sponsored roles being bullied the moment they enter the game with totally fake 'I paid already...' or 'But I was promised this discount...' or 'Give me money for protection.' Their feet are not even sandy yet. Give them a week before you all pounce.
- sponsored roles being treated like vending machines by players who then complain ICly that said sponsored role is never around, they're shit at their job, etc simply because their play times do not mesh up or hell, they have a Real Life and cannot invest 24 hours, 7 days a week like some players can.
- independents expecting GMH to okay them starting not at the bottom like everyone else just because they can already make this or that or have so much money.
- sponsored roles being pooped on when they cannot immediately make a new design on a whim, for no money down.
- sponsored roles being pooped on when they cannot immediately make an order present on a whim, considering item orders are done once a real-world week.
- sponsored roles being pooped on when they cannot immediately make something exist when it does not and not accepting the options said sponsored role gives them.
- players feeling GMH are bland/plotless who are not playing in GMH to even see how wrong they are.
I help my leaders make GMH awesome and I thank them every chance I can because they make staffing these clans -awesome-.
Perfect post Hishn! I feel really sorry for all the current GMH leaders right now...this whole thread must have made them feel rubbish! Thank you guys for stepping up to the job and giving it your best, I've had some great experiences with GMH's over the last year.
Personally, the problem I'm seeing is people not -wanting- to be in GMH's because...basically...they can make more coin as indies. That's it, plain and simple.
Quote from: Maso on May 04, 2013, 12:32:48 AM
Personally, the problem I'm seeing is people not -wanting- to be in GMH's because...basically...they can make more coin as indies. That's it, plain and simple.
I see that a lot as well but I guess I'm one of those "join a clan to support" types and that's what I actually enjoy doing to be honest. I like being a minion who supports a leader. I've never really had an indie. And good post Hishn, it was really spot on because I noticed all those exact things the last time I was in a GMH. Every single point listed, I've seen. So hopefully this thread helps some change!
I super suck at leadership roles, so bearing in mind that I have no business telling others how to play a leader:
How about making those independents offers they can't refuse? Join, pay up, or be divested of coin/limb/life. Members of clans have a place in the political landscape. Independents by definition do not. An independent flaunting their wealth should be prey to templars and maybe nobles.
I don't understand how a crafter/hunter/whatever without a clan can actually keep their fancy stuff, ICly. What's stopping the templars from mugging them on a daily basis? The militia, the Guild, the nobility could all be motivated with various carrots to make life difficult for PCs taking a bite out of Merchant House business. The advantage of membership is political cover. As a GMH employee, you get to actually keep the coins you earn.
For off-peak players, the situation is self-correcting. It's way easier to dodge the attention of roving bands of mugging militia if they aren't logged on. So, off-peakers could do their independent thing without having to worry as much about acquiring cover.
Quote from: number13 on May 04, 2013, 01:06:33 AM
I don't understand how a crafter/hunter/whatever without a clan can actually keep their fancy stuff, ICly. What's stopping the templars from mugging them on a daily basis? The militia, the Guild, the nobility could all be motivated with various carrots to make life difficult for PCs taking a bite out of Merchant House business. The advantage of membership is political cover. As a GMH employee, you get to actually keep the coins you earn.
You assume that all indies are helpless characters with a whole lot of money and absolutely no allies to back them up.
In Tuluk, an indie can be an indie and still have the backing of a Chosen Lord/Lady or even a Faithful Lord/Lady, those are called patrons and they still allow indies to be.. Well.. indies.
In the south, indies can bribe Templars to have some added protection, they can pay off rhinties to keep them from mugging/stealing from them and they can also have a semblance of a patron with a Lord or Lady of one of the major Houses, as well..
People seem to think that having a vast amount of money is useless on Arm unless you're in a GMH as well, it's only useless if you never use it/don't know how to use it.
I think that one problem I see here is that indies often have MORE money to pay off others to be left alone than GMH merchants may have to spend on having that nobody hunter/crafter harassed.
This thread has been served.