Zalanthas is huge, as worlds go, and the common tongue in most areas is Sirihish, everyone knows this. So, when you run into someone who speaks in the common tongue with you, its fine to treat the other person with a casualness that one would offer any stranger.
However, when it comes to the other languages, and especially accents, I strongly suggest that your PC react slightly differently.
Perhaps your elf is mildly curious as to how a human is speaking to you in fluent Allundean, and gives him some leeway in his dealings with you.
Or, perhaps your dune nomad is surprised that a dwarf is speaking in broken Bendune with a nomadic accent, and gives him a discount on some of your wares.
A dwarf might be impressed with a half-giant who speaks Mirukkim, and think about befriending him.
A rinther would be more inclined to speak freely in the presence of another who spoke with the same alley accent.
Of course, there can always be fanatical elves who might think that "round-ears" defile their tongue, and might turn on you if you spoke untainted Allundean.
The possibilities are myriad, and fascinating.....
While you might not give a second thought to someone speaking your language and accent in your neighbourhood, you would definitely blink and consider, if you met someone like that in a far-off part of the World.
In short, please take a moment when you make your character, to decide how he/she will deal with others, if they speak your tongue, or use your accent (Sirihish being the exception of course).
Language related RP has a lot of potential on Arm, and which most folks (including me) take for granted over time, or seem to forget, or simply disregard as being a game mechanism....and we end up losing some interesting quirks and changes in behavioural patterns in the bargain!
Indeed.
Though, people seem to play this pretty well. In fact, I've personally witnessed most of those exact examples.
Makes me wish the way did not break the language barrier.
Quote from: bartenderer on October 10, 2012, 07:58:50 PM
Makes me wish the way did not break the language barrier.
This. Definitely. Yes.
I've certainly ranted at length about this topic before, though.
I always give myself a headache when I type with an accent. I drop it while I'm speaking in my native and over the way because why would have an accent in your own language. Then pick it back up when I am speaking in my non native. It can get confusing when their is a bunch going.
Languages can certainty make for some interesting rp as well if you are not paying attention. Back in 2007 I picked up a certain language which commoners should not be speaking ever. Accidentally commented on something two Templars were saying to each other because i didn't notice they had changed lang's. Thankfully a certain Red Robe was my buddy. But I nearly peed myself when I realized what I had done.
Quote from: Bast on October 11, 2012, 04:32:28 PM
I always give myself a headache when I type with an accent. I drop it while I'm speaking in my native and over the way because why would have an accent in your own language. Then pick it back up when I am speaking in my non native. It can get confusing when their is a bunch going.
Languages can certainty make for some interesting rp as well if you are not paying attention. Back in 2007 I picked up a certain language which commoners should not be speaking ever. Accidentally commented on something two Templars were saying to each other because i didn't notice they had changed lang's. Thankfully a certain Red Robe was my buddy. But I nearly peed myself when I realized what I had done.
Yeahp, that would be an incredibly big mistake to make.
I do not agree.
As it depends entirely on the character's background. Some may care, some might not, some even might be annoyed you are trying to speak their language.
Too many variables to say.. this is how it should be done.
And besides.. an elf who meets a human who speaks Allundean is defiantly going to be thinking something... but it might not be oh wow this guy is great.
An elf who meets any human ever is going to be thinking.. Ohmygosh which are the fifty ways this man will kill me. Anything out of the ordinary is likely to only make it worse.
Quote from: Patuk on October 11, 2012, 05:55:16 PM
An elf who meets any human ever is going to be thinking.. Ohmygosh which are the fifty ways this man roundear will might kill me if I were not the fastest, cleverest true person on the block. Anything out of the ordinary is likely to only make it worse be considered an opening through which said elf can work his schemes to take care of the roundear's pesky idea of "personal property".
ftfy
Accents aren't just about how the word sounds, accents also reflects word choice. Ya'll, ending a sentence with a preposition, Eh? All part of one's accent.
I think it was posted a long time ago that it was not cool for players to way halflings, for instance, to get around the language barrier and communicate. That said, realistically different languages in Zalanthas would probably be pretty different, and a native bendune speaker let's say, might have different word ordering and choice when it comes to speaking other languages. In one language you would say "The red Tor." In another, you could say "The Tor red." Both meaning the same thing, but a little confusing depending on the ear.
While I've seen it played out well many a time, in those special cases where there is a true language barrier I would encourage players not to use the way as a cranial instant messenger service and seek out those linguists or try to learn the language. Language is a super valuable skill in reality, and only grows more valuable with the amount of fluency and complexity of ideas you can convey and I think that it should be reflected in the game.
It's that discrepency that always bugged me. Using the Way to bridge the language barrier is ok elf to human, but not ok human to halfling. ???
I'd rather the Way take language into account so that being a linguist (or a psion) is more useful when it comes to bridging language barriers. But! Now that we don't haz halflings anymore ... hey, constiency once more!
Quote from: musashi on October 17, 2012, 08:40:15 AM
It's that discrepency that always bugged me. Using the Way to bridge the language barrier is ok elf to human, but not ok human to halfling. ???
There was a good reason for it, actually. Most humanoids in Zalanthas (the playable races) communicate within culture that is very much different than the culture of halflings.
Quote from: Sanvean on August 17, 2004, 08:17:12 PM
Halfling culture and mentality is very different from what we'll call human culture, despite the fact that it contains elves, half-elves, dwarves, half-giants, muls, etc., on Zalanthas.
It's just too alien - just as communication with a mantis, for example, is a case where the human mind simply cannot comprehend the patterns comprising the communication. When halflings speak with non-halflings, they might communicate in flashes of images or emotion, but that is about the extent of it. That's what I've urged the halfling players to stick with.
OOCly, we had a sudden rash of players doing "contact halfling" as soon as the clan opened, and I found this irritating. They are not tiny humans, they don't want to come visit you, and they don't want to bring you baskets of delicious cookies and grubs from the Grey Forest. You are not a person to them - you are meat on the hoof. On the positive side of my irritation, this did lead to interesting discussions and clarification of what such communication should look like, which I appreciated, and the halfling players have been swell about it, as far as I can tell, since then.
Quote from: My 2 sids on October 17, 2012, 07:40:32 AM
Accents aren't just about how the word sounds, accents also reflects word choice. Ya'll, ending a sentence with a preposition, Eh? All part of one's accent.
Accent is just pronunciation. You're thinking of dialect, which encompasses both accent and word choice.
Quote from: Nyr on October 17, 2012, 08:50:50 AM
There was a good reason for it, actually. Most humanoids in Zalanthas (the playable races) communicate within culture that is very much different than the culture of halflings.
LIES! ALL FILTHY LIES!
... out of curiosity is it possible to make playable races get the "their mind is too foreign to you" message? Why not go in that direction? Like was done with mantis.
Quote from: musashi on October 17, 2012, 09:26:14 AM
Quote from: Nyr on October 17, 2012, 08:50:50 AM
There was a good reason for it, actually. Most humanoids in Zalanthas (the playable races) communicate within culture that is very much different than the culture of halflings.
LIES! ALL FILTHY LIES!
... out of curiosity is it possible to make playable races get the "their mind is too foreign to you" message? Why not go in that direction? Like was done with mantis.
I think it's because although their minds are 'humanoid', as such, they have a culture so vastly different and a way of thinking, speaking and looking at the world which diffes to much that even thought-to-thought communication is difficult.
Yes but read Sanvean's quote.
I 'loved' communicating with halflings in psies at one point. Neither one of us used actual words, we were communicating in images. The end result ... we confused the hell out of each other and to this day, I still dont know wtf was that dude talking about.
*you recieve the mental image of a large agafari tree, which slowly sways in the breeze. Moments later, it transforms into an obese woman with long hair, full of maggots. Three carru set upon the woman, eating her in a spray of gore. The carru then start dancing.*
Bring back halflings!
I want to eat people!
Quote from: musashi on October 17, 2012, 08:40:15 AM
It's that discrepency that always bugged me. Using the Way to bridge the language barrier is ok elf to human, but not ok human to halfling. ???
I'd rather the Way take language into account so that being a linguist (or a psion) is more useful when it comes to bridging language barriers. But! Now that we don't haz halflings anymore ... hey, constiency once more!
I do wish Linguist had some use besides eavesdropping and allowing elf-like breeds to actually have fluent Allundean.
People from Luir's need a new accent, called 'Midlands'. They're not really northern, they are in the middle. Luir's folk aren't filthy Tulukis.
Clearly, your position is unassailable.
Quote from: Scarecrow on November 05, 2012, 03:13:34 AM
People from Luir's need a new accent, called 'Midlands'. They're not really northern, they are in the middle. Luir's folk aren't filthy Tulukis.
Back when Tuluk was in ruins before Allanak invaded Luir's was part of something called the Northlands Alliance. This and their relative geographic location to the north (It's much easier to travel between the north/Tuluk and Luir's than from Allanak) is probably the justification for it being "norther".
I'd be a proponent of some kind of midlands accent because Luir's is different from Tuluk. Luir's is the only location that's centralized as far as civilization goes. Based on that, maybe it could be called a outlander accent, or maybe a Kuraci accent if we wanna get cute. Luir's might also be a good candidate to offer the bendune/tribal accent also. After all, outside of Kuraci personnel, it's most frequented by tribals.
I love the idea of luir's setting you with tribal accent and it makes a lot of sense, without getting the bonus of bendune.
I don't like that idea at all. I'd like for desert and tribal accents to remain solely the province of characters who clearly grew up speaking a language other than sirihish.
Actually now that I think about it ... meh. Red Storm peeps get southern accents. Luirites get northern. Makes sense.
Maybe Tuluki accents sound like Luirs accents, not the other way around.
Quote from: valeria on November 06, 2012, 07:44:09 AM
Maybe Tuluki accents sound like Luirs accents, not the other way around.
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lqu14fBg1z1qh1km4.jpg)
My Kuraci worked damned hard for her Luirs accent.
I think of a Luirs accent like you are someone from NJ.
Quote from: kayza on November 07, 2012, 12:02:23 PM
I think of a Luirs accent like you are someone from NJ.
The makeup slathered, orange skinned woman says, "You wouldn't understand, it's a Luirs thing."
I dunno dude, you tout a lot of this 'everyone wants this change' and 'this would be a huge benefit to the game' but I don't really see it?
I think there could be more accents added, definitely. But I know you certainly don't speak for me when you say 'why can't we change this code already, everyone wants it!' White Knight arguments aren't as strong as personal statements. Although, I can get behind some of what you say.
Not sure about all the psionic-learning-language stuff. Sounds weird.
The thing I do like (Not sure if you meant this?) but being able to speak in a tongue you aren't native in (or don't have on your skill list). So, there's a couple elves sitting at the bar. You try to speak Allundean. You're literally awful at it, and they heckle you. But -- While you are trying to speak Allundean, and you hear allundean, you have a better chance of learning it. This is in effect you 'actively' trying to learn the language.
EDIT:
I also really like your idea for randomly failing an accent. That's great.
Yeah, randomly letting your accent slip would be neat. A certain subguild could possibly gain immunity to this.
Yeah, I like the failing accent thing too. The way it works in game is a little ridonkulous. If you have high wisdom you can join the Byn and learn every accent besides staccato in an IC year. A bit too easy to hide your roots.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on November 10, 2012, 07:44:07 AMIf you have high wisdom you can join the Byn
Something doesn't seem to match there ;)
Quote from: John on November 10, 2012, 07:49:06 AM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on November 10, 2012, 07:44:07 AMIf you have high wisdom you can join the Byn
Something doesn't seem to match there ;)
Join up with a breed with wisdom prioritized. Man, it spoils you to have skills improve that quickly. ;)
Quote from: hyzhenhok on November 10, 2012, 07:44:07 AM
Yeah, I like the failing accent thing too. The way it works in game is a little ridonkulous. If you have high wisdom you can join the Byn and learn every accent besides staccato in an IC year. A bit too easy to hide your roots.
There's a guy that puts out YuTube videos that can teach you the basics of an accent in five minutes. www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnjGNJ5JL8w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnjGNJ5JL8w)
It's pretty nifty. You should look up his video on Americans. He seriously has us down pat.
Yeah, he's pretty fucking good.
Quote from: Narf on November 10, 2012, 10:57:49 AM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on November 10, 2012, 07:44:07 AM
Yeah, I like the failing accent thing too. The way it works in game is a little ridonkulous. If you have high wisdom you can join the Byn and learn every accent besides staccato in an IC year. A bit too easy to hide your roots.
There's a guy that puts out YuTube videos that can teach you the basics of an accent in five minutes. www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnjGNJ5JL8w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnjGNJ5JL8w)
It's pretty nifty. You should look up his video on Americans. He seriously has us down pat.
Unfortunately Zalanthas doesn't have YouTube for those who want to learn accents. :(
I don't want psionics to be language based.
That is not how they were intended to be.
You can accept we have humanoids that are 12-15 ft tall without massive deformities (half-giants) but can't accept that maybe thought is a little different?
That said, I do think more -accents- would be neat. I dislike having someone from Luir's and people assuming they are Tuluki if they are in the south just because of the accent (without even looking for tattoos to prove/disprove it).
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on November 10, 2012, 12:23:20 PM
I don't want psionics to be language based.
That is not how they were intended to be.
You can accept we have humanoids that are 12-15 ft tall without massive deformities (half-giants) but can't accept that maybe thought is a little different?
That said, I do think more -accents- would be neat. I dislike having someone from Luir's and people assuming they are Tuluki if they are in the south just because of the accent (without even looking for tattoos to prove/disprove it).
I don't like southerners -not- giving norther-accented sirihish speakers crap in Allanak because it might be a Luir's-er rather than a Tuluki.
So it would satisfy both of us.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on November 10, 2012, 12:39:51 PM
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on November 10, 2012, 12:23:20 PM
I don't want psionics to be language based.
That is not how they were intended to be.
You can accept we have humanoids that are 12-15 ft tall without massive deformities (half-giants) but can't accept that maybe thought is a little different?
That said, I do think more -accents- would be neat. I dislike having someone from Luir's and people assuming they are Tuluki if they are in the south just because of the accent (without even looking for tattoos to prove/disprove it).
I don't like southerners -not- giving norther-accented sirihish speakers crap in Allanak because it might be a Luir's-er rather than a Tuluki.
So it would satisfy both of us.
I don't mind them being shit, just outpost shit, not northie shit when they're midwesterners, so to speak. ;)
This discussion regarding a Luir's accent reminds me a little of an ask the staff post recently regarding citizenship in Luir's. Since it's not really a settlement. It's more like a Merchant House compound with a market and tavern thrown in for laughs.
Quote from: path on November 10, 2012, 01:28:22 PM
This discussion regarding a Luir's accent reminds me a little of an ask the staff post recently regarding citizenship in Luir's. Since it's not really a settlement. It's more like a Merchant House compound with a market and tavern thrown in for laughs.
This -is- how cities everywhere start out, though.
Quote from: Patuk on November 10, 2012, 01:29:46 PM
Quote from: path on November 10, 2012, 01:28:22 PM
This discussion regarding a Luir's accent reminds me a little of an ask the staff post recently regarding citizenship in Luir's. Since it's not really a settlement. It's more like a Merchant House compound with a market and tavern thrown in for laughs.
This -is- how cities everywhere start out, though.
Unless you are Allanak or Tuluk.
Patuk is correct. From such humble beginnings (single merchant house outpost) grew the once great city of Steinal.
We don't think anything, but thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Your ideas aren't strengthened by pretending everyone secretly agrees with you. That's delusional.
I agree with some of your ideas. But I'm not part of Adj's silent majority. Count me out!
Quote from: Adj on November 10, 2012, 09:13:40 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on November 10, 2012, 06:58:49 PM
We don't think anything, but thanks for sharing your thoughts.
(http://danceswithfat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/trolling.png?w=451)
(http://danceswithfat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/trolling.png?w=451)
Quote from: Adj on November 10, 2012, 09:13:40 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on November 10, 2012, 06:58:49 PM
We don't think anything, but thanks for sharing your thoughts.
(http://danceswithfat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/trolling.png?w=451)
(http://danceswithfat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/trolling.png?w=451)
Sorry you think my personal rebuttal of your idea of 'facts that everyone agrees with' is trolling.
Actually, everyone agrees with me Adj. Sorry. The silent majority has spoken.
I did not give consent for this.
Stop trolling. Don't post NSFW pictures. Don't make me call Nyr back here.
SO ANYWAYS BACK ON TOPIC!
Do Gith get their own accent? They should!
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 11, 2012, 03:24:56 AM
SO ANYWAYS BACK ON TOPIC!
Do Gith get their own accent? They should!
Gith can't even talk civilised like, so what does it matter? Or has someone managed to learn heshrak from the one liners they throw out before killing you?
Find out IC.
why are we questioning it? I just think they should get their own cool accent.
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 11, 2012, 05:46:23 AM
why are we questioning it?
I may be wrong but I believe you asked a question on a discussion forum. This isn't a post ideas and then not talk about them forum
So anyways, ignoring certain comments that are ill-stated and against the purpose of this threat...
I want to see a Silt-sea accent. For when the Silt-sea people cross over into Red Storm and take over.
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 11, 2012, 07:58:03 AM
So anyways, ignoring certain comments that are ill-stated and against the purpose of this threat...
I want to see a Silt-sea accent. For when the Silt-sea people cross over into Red Storm and take over.
This sounds familiar.
How much karma will silt giants need?
Like, 11.
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 11, 2012, 08:01:10 AM
Like, 11.
12. Otherwise it's an 8 karma + special app (+3 karma). And I don't want to see any PC silt giants. Ever.
Quote from: Morrolan on November 12, 2012, 03:08:02 PM
Quote from: evilcabbage on November 11, 2012, 08:01:10 AM
Like, 11.
12. Otherwise it's an 8 karma + special app (+3 karma). And I don't want to see any PC silt giants. Ever.
But our karma, it only goes to 11.
I'm going to weigh in again in favor of language code applying to psionics. It's not about believably in this case, it's about making languages actually USEFUL. Frankly I'm surprised anyone in Zalanthas bothers to learn another language at all when every human and demi-human has a universal translator built into their head.
I'm OK with chance failure of accents, but ONLY when below master level of the skill.
We could probably use a few more accents (at the very least, each language ought to have a native accent applied to it rather than just northern/southern). However, we probably should avoid going overboard and not have 30 different accents or whatever.
I've always been motivated to learn other languages, if only to overhear the table gossip of those suspicious looking neckers over there. I usually don't bother, though, because it's such a pain to learn it through IC language lessons. The same teacher won't have time / motivation / be around long enough to give 30+ language lessons. Most people who pick up another language were probably simply long lived enough to improve through randomly overhearing that language, rather than language lessons from a teacher, which is a bit unrealistic imho.
I wonder if the staff would be willing to consider enabling the teach command for language skills.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on November 13, 2012, 01:40:05 PM
I wonder if the staff would be willing to consider enabling the teach command for language skills.
That would rock.
I wish we had a few more subguilds, all with languages and language boosts. In modern-day Africa, due to colonization, its very common to find a bilingual or trilingual or quadrilingual african. I'm thinking, because of the overwhelming hold on everything important that humans have in the cities, and their close proximity to the other races living there, it might be rather common for Amos the human to know mirukkim to a journeyman level, and for a human to know some allundean without having to be a biological breed or have to also know dwarvish.
I want to complain about how most pcs ought to be able to tell the difference between allundean and mirukkim out of chargen, but then there'd be so many people spouting choking sounds that sound vaguely elven or dwarvish and that's not fun.
Higher stun penalties for communicating with people over the Way if they don't have a mastered/advanced language in common?
Quote from: Cind on November 13, 2012, 03:10:04 PM
I wish we had a few more subguilds, all with languages and language boosts. In modern-day Africa, due to colonization, its very common to find a bilingual or trilingual or quadrilingual african. I'm thinking, because of the overwhelming hold on everything important that humans have in the cities, and their close proximity to the other races living there, it might be rather common for Amos the human to know mirukkim to a journeyman level, and for a human to know some allundean without having to be a biological breed or have to also know dwarvish.
I want to complain about how most pcs ought to be able to tell the difference between allundean and mirukkim out of chargen, but then there'd be so many people spouting choking sounds that sound vaguely elven or dwarvish and that's not fun.
Zalanthans are commonly bilingual and trilingual already. Just not commoner human city-dwellers.
In a particular part of the game, people will jump on you instantly after you say something for not having the correct accent. Lesser forms of the same thing happen in most areas of the game. Accents are cool, but not when taken to that extreme, that's just...-weird-.
Quote from: Armaddict on January 25, 2013, 08:36:00 AM
In a particular part of the game, people will jump on you instantly after you say something for not having the correct accent. Lesser forms of the same thing happen in most areas of the game. Accents are cool, but not when taken to that extreme, that's just...-weird-.
That actually seems to me to be 'working as intended'. Accents advertise your ethnicity, and some ethnicities are not well recieved in some areas.
Quote from: Adj on November 14, 2012, 12:39:26 AM
Quote from: Maso on November 14, 2012, 12:17:50 AM
Higher stun penalties for communicating with people over the Way if they don't have a mastered/advanced language in common?
That's an interesting thought.
Make it do the same thing as language. You way in the same language you are speaking. But you have chance to learn language by waying similar to hearing it spoken.
Totally against any changes to psi based upon language skills.
Ways are thoughts and thoughts should transcend language.
Ever seen a foreign language movie that screenplays someone's thoughts and feelings? Yeah, you still understand it though you don't know the language.
I don't think thought transcend language... but that horse has been beaten to a pulp here so I'll leave it at that.
Inner monologues do not transcend languages. Images might.
Quote from: i can haz mantis on January 25, 2013, 05:18:24 PM
Totally against any changes to psi based upon language skills.
Ways are thoughts and thoughts should transcend language.
Ever seen a foreign language movie that screenplays someone's thoughts and feelings? Yeah, you still understand it though you don't know the language.
You may understand the feelings (as in, the heroine is scared shitless of the murderer) but you wouldn't understand what exactly is she saying. It is annoying when people use way to circumvent language barrier. I'm against it.
It amuses me that some people think they had no thoughts before they could speak.
/me amused.
The advantage to knowing other languages is you can talk in them and generally most other people won't be able to understand you, making it more likely you can plot and speak of secret things without being listened in on.
Quote from: X-D on January 26, 2013, 03:06:32 PM
It amuses me that some people think they had no thoughts before they could speak.
/me amused.
Oh hey. A strawman.
Hardly a straw man.
A couple people made the point that the way does/should transcend language...others have stated it should not as thought does not.
I contend that you in fact DO think BEFORE YOU have language, that people and animals without language for whatever reason including damage to the brain also continue to think. That people deaf from birth also think, even though what language they know consists of hand signs...and I really doubt they think in hand signs.
Actually, I know enough deaf people to know they do not. I contend that the only language you think in is the language of thought...you only -think- you think in a language because it is the simplest way to think of it.
So yes, the way, Being a strange fantasy brain to brain contact does indeed transcend spoken language by virtue of the language of thought.
Woot.
It sounds like you are monolingual.
Because the tipping point for multi-lingual speakers, the point at which they make the jump from fumbling and unable to keep up with the conversations going around them, to being an active participant, is when they can start thinking comfortably in the other language they're studying. Thus eliminating the lag they get when they hear a word in this language, then wrack their brain in their native language searching for the translation.
Can babies think in the vaguest sense of the word before language? Sure. Animals can do it too, again, in the loosest sense of the word. But can they communicate with those thoughts in the absence of a pre-established language to communicate in?
We can't know at this moment in RL for sure, though we have no evidence to suggest they could and lots of evidence to suggest they can't.
Can you Way animals and babies IG game and talk to them despite their lack of a language? NOOOOOOPE.
I'm largely indifferent to letting the Way transcend language for the sake of playability or whatever, but the assertion that people think "in the language of thought" is just kind of dumb. People think in the language(s) they have acquired, once they have acquired them.
Even the deaf speak the language of signing and expression, which they also think and dream in. Communication is pretty much entirely dependent on language. There's actually been a lot of research on this topic.
QuoteIt sounds like you are monolingual.
Far from it.
Actually tough to work here in AZ if you are.
Meh, I had posted quite a bit but deleted it because it really does not matter and is at best a derail so...carry on.
Depends whether thought in this context is activity which you adapt into language on input and output, or a manifestation of any language you can think in, generally your native language/s.
Modern evidence shows this is somewhere in the middle - that our brains have some universal linguistic traits, but also develop along the lines of the languages we think in.
That said, I am of the opinion that thought as a conceptual activity does not cross the language barrier even for imagery (barring colour, which is evidently inherent) and as such, the Way should not bridge a language gap. The game/theme, however, does allow this. Whatever. It does cheapen languages but I think the restrictions and vulnerabilities from Waying do mitigate this somewhat.
Yup.
Quote from: Case on January 27, 2013, 09:52:27 PM
Depends whether thought in this context is activity which you adapt into language on input and output, or a manifestation of any language you can think in, generally your native language/s.
Modern evidence shows this is somewhere in the middle - that our brains have some universal linguistic traits, but also develop along the lines of the languages we think in.
That said, I am of the opinion that thought as a conceptual activity does not cross the language barrier even for imagery (barring colour, which is evidently inherent) and as such, the Way should not bridge a language gap. The game/theme, however, does allow this. Whatever. It does cheapen languages but I think the restrictions and vulnerabilities from Waying do mitigate this somewhat.
The Known World is geographically and linguistically small. The languages that most PCs speak, Allundean, Bendune, Cavilish, and Sirihish, are all closely related and have similar concepts, syntax, and grammar. Mirukkim is more distantly related but almost all dwarves also speak Sirihish. Verbal communication in these languages is not mutually intelligible but psionic communication is.
Psionic communication with halflings (if they were alive) and mantis is not possible in the same way because their languages do not share commonalities.
As a mostly random thought, I'd quite like to see the acquisition and imitation of accents be harder. Right now you can imitate an accent or not at all. It would be cooler if it had skill levels like languages because really, being able to deceive in regards to your ethnicity is a pretty good skill to have, especially convincing locals that you too are a local. It would be nice perhaps if it worked so that the lower your skill at an accent the more chance there would be of randomly slipping backing into your 'real' accent. Also, if there was no cap to the skill level of accents, then whatever your 'real' accent was would be determined by which had the highest skill level (if you grow up in London but then move at 15 to NY and live there for 25 years...you're probably going to lose that London accent for good)...but the skill level would probably need to increase just by use/practise rather than the way others skills go up.
</waffle>
I like that idea, although without a "base" accent to disignate what does the game do when you have 2 accents at the same skill level? Just roll a die? What happens when you max out 2 accents completely and even when you're not trying to blend into a different culture you still end up slipping up once in a blue moon.
Quote from: Case on January 27, 2013, 09:52:27 PM
Depends whether thought in this context is activity which you adapt into language on input and output, or a manifestation of any language you can think in, generally your native language/s.
Modern evidence shows this is somewhere in the middle - that our brains have some universal linguistic traits, but also develop along the lines of the languages we think in.
That said, I am of the opinion that thought as a conceptual activity does not cross the language barrier even for imagery (barring colour, which is evidently inherent) and as such, the Way should not bridge a language gap. The game/theme, however, does allow this. Whatever. It does cheapen languages but I think the restrictions and vulnerabilities from Waying do mitigate this somewhat.
Is color evidently inherent because one can imagine a green kalan, and anyone else who's seen a kalan suddenly knows that "green" is it's color?
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 28, 2013, 02:11:42 AM
Quote from: Case on January 27, 2013, 09:52:27 PM
Depends whether thought in this context is activity which you adapt into language on input and output, or a manifestation of any language you can think in, generally your native language/s.
Modern evidence shows this is somewhere in the middle - that our brains have some universal linguistic traits, but also develop along the lines of the languages we think in.
That said, I am of the opinion that thought as a conceptual activity does not cross the language barrier even for imagery (barring colour, which is evidently inherent) and as such, the Way should not bridge a language gap. The game/theme, however, does allow this. Whatever. It does cheapen languages but I think the restrictions and vulnerabilities from Waying do mitigate this somewhat.
Is color evidently inherent because one can imagine a green kalan, and anyone else who's seen a kalan suddenly knows that "green" is it's color?
Sure. Colour's just an interaction between your eyes/brain and electromagnetic radiation. The frequencies behind each colour are fixed. The brain doesn't seem to need to associate an understanding of language with colours, although there's cultural associations and some instinctive understandings(blood, what food colours are appealing, etc)
Of course this is only evidently inherent for other people, as different animals have different hardware in the eye department.
Quote from: musashi on January 28, 2013, 01:21:54 AM
I like that idea, although without a "base" accent to disignate what does the game do when you have 2 accents at the same skill level? Just roll a die? What happens when you max out 2 accents completely and even when you're not trying to blend into a different culture you still end up slipping up once in a blue moon.
The one that had the highest skill level
first would be the 'base', and it should take a seriously long time to overtake whatever accent your character was 'born' with and have the base change. No max...it just keeps going to allow for the base to change. And base never fails, other accents would stop failing too once they reached a certain point. There would still be a 'master' level (no fails), just no max cap.
It would be cool if you couldn't see your skill level either. It's wouldn't be about being 'leet', it would just be a cool tool for more realistic RP...your character spends a lot of time in the North you'd switch to Northern because it makes sense...but it doesn't matter that they slip up and their southern accent comes through - because they're not trying to deceive actively, they've just picked up a northern twang!
"Do I hear a bit of the South in you?"
There's a lot about the language code on Arm I don't like. Random scrambling, picking up languages from listening to them at random, no difference between native and non native languages, people beyond their teens learning languages to full skill, apparently everybody being talented with accents up to native ability...
It's not how language works.
Why?
Random scrambling : makes a weird curve of what you can understand and when. You don't mishear phonemes, you don't grasp gist or don't know the words or the grammar. Code makes this tricky to replicate but there's better methods.
Picking up languages at random: You learn languages through conscious effort or full immersion with active participation. You cannot learn to speak a language by one speaker saying the same word over and over.
Learning languages, age, native, non native, accents: Around 15 or so, most people lose the ability to learn to create sounds from other languages properly and will struggle to develop new languages. They may learn them, but will sound awkward or different, forever. Same deal with accents although skill with language doesn't equate to skill with accent and vice versa, oddly enough.
Some of these things can be mimicked in code :) Languages as game tools as only as useful as their ability to restrict information in given contexts. The more languages everybody has, the less languages matter.
Case,
I just want to point out that last week, I was in Zagreb, Croatia. Czechs like to think we understand 80% of their language.. But that wasn't the case.
I understood about 20% if that (mainly curse words and prepositions).
In fact as I was in a bar (Domus, which if you're in Zagreb ever.. GO TO), drinking copious amounts of wine and laughing with old friends, I thought of arm when I couldn't understand much of anything (meaning we spoke mainly in english).. But when they spoke in their native tongue, I'd catch an inkling of a word or a full word, followed by a scrambled mess that sounded.. Well.. Not much like anything save for the rare sound of familiarity.
The point is, I'm not sure how learning languages work.. But I can assure you that once you step out of the latin-based languages, all bets are off in terms of coherence with what you should and shouldn't understand... And this was a half-slav speaking a slavic tongue in a slavic country.. But we had to resort to english b/c we couldn't understand each other :P
Case is right, for the most part. That's why I learned how to properly pronounce words in French, German and Russian as a teenager. But at 32, my Mandarin accent isn't too shabby for a white boy*.
The quirks of language code is something we must endure. An overhaul would be a huge project, when there are better places for that effort. I think we're lucky to have any language code, at all. It really makes the game fleshed out.
Quote from: Case on January 27, 2013, 09:52:27 PM
Modern evidence shows this is somewhere in the middle - that our brains have some universal linguistic traits, but also develop along the lines of the languages we think in.
I think it's interesting that you say that, too, because I generally don't think in words, unless I'm consciously doing so. But there's always a stupid ass awful song going through my mind ... right now, it's Teach Me How To Dougie.
If I were to apply this to real life, having
Language skills
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dutch (master) nerd accent
Equals to
Language skills
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
sirihish (master) German <journeyman>
nerd accent
For most people, anyway. I don't mind the dikumud language code that much myself.
Quote from: Kismetic on March 26, 2013, 09:40:10 AM
I think it's interesting that you say that, too, because I generally don't think in words, unless I'm consciously doing so.
Ayup. It's a rare person that's wired this way, but it does happen.
I've heard people argue that it doesn't, that all thinking is necessarily in a language.
But the people arguing that were wrong. As a trained meditation instructor, I can say that with 100% certainty.
Hmm? I'm pretty sure that nowadays, I mostly think in English, even though French is my native language, which is why I tend to realize that I think in English.
People need to stop just tacking on a random comment to the end of threads that have been dead for a month that cover points either already addressed.
There is really no way to make the learning of languages realistic without actually coding out each language.
The way the system is now is the best way to to have it so that you can actually learn languages. Yes its not realistic, yes its purely random which words you will understand as you start to grasp the language, but its better than not being able to ever pick up a language - and until someone codes out a full language and linguistic basis for all the made up languages, there won't really be anything else.
Quote from: Jenred on March 26, 2013, 12:13:18 PM
People need to stop just tacking on a random comment to the end of threads that have been dead for a month that cover points either already addressed.
There is really no way to make the learning of languages realistic without actually coding out each language.
The way the system is now is the best way to to have it so that you can actually learn languages. Yes its not realistic, yes its purely random which words you will understand as you start to grasp the language, but its better than not being able to ever pick up a language - and until someone codes out a full language and linguistic basis for all the made up languages, there won't really be anything else.
^ point has already been addressed.
Quote from: Malken on March 26, 2013, 11:45:21 AM
Hmm? I'm pretty sure that nowadays, I mostly think in English, even though French is my native language, which is why I tend to realize that I think in English.
I think, dream, mutter and curse in English. Yet, I still have the damn ugly Dutch accent!
Quote from: Jenred on March 26, 2013, 12:13:18 PM
People need to stop just tacking on a random comment to the end of threads that have been dead for a month that cover points either already addressed.
Well I for one really liked Case's post and would like to hear how she would implement a better language system, even if never implemented.
I'm amused that you choose this, of all threads, to launch a "People need to stop tacking on a random comment ... " You know, seeing as it's disjointed pretty much all throughout. Ironic, for a language thread.
Quote from: Jenred on March 26, 2013, 12:13:18 PM
People need to stop just tacking on a random comment to the end of threads that have been dead for a month that cover points either already addressed.
Hey, I like where you're going with this. More language humor!
I can and would argue that there really
is a way to make the learning of languages different in the game without codifying an entire language.
Quote from: Rhyden on March 26, 2013, 02:11:12 PM
Well I for one really liked Case's post and would like to hear how she would implement a better language system, even if never implemented.
Agreed.
Well yeah, I would like to hear too...
The problem is that it never seems to get that far! :-\
Quote from: Jenred on March 26, 2013, 02:16:38 PM
Well yeah, I would like to hear too...
The problem is that it never seems to get that far! :-\
Case is a pretty damn good mud coder, so if there's someone who could come up with a way to code what she's speaking of, that'd probably be her.
Something that might be a slight improvement to the current 'scrambling' functionality of the language code...
Less scrambling on shorter words. More scrambling on longer words. Means if you don't speak a language very well, you (and people speaking to you) can dumb it down to monosyllabic and have a higher chance of being able to communicate. Slightly more realistic in it's potential application...I think? Currently you either do understand or you don't...and if you know a little bit of a language you can't dumb it down to make what you do know comprehendible...
To be honest, I can generally decipher scrambled phrases in context and length of word alone. I realize this is bad form, but I can't resist the brain teaser. I'd like to hear something outside of the scramblings suggested, as per Case's post.
Quote from: Dakota on March 26, 2013, 08:00:30 AM
Case,
I just want to point out that last week, I was in Zagreb, Croatia. Czechs like to think we understand 80% of their language.. But that wasn't the case.
I understood about 20% if that (mainly curse words and prepositions).
In fact as I was in a bar (Domus, which if you're in Zagreb ever.. GO TO), drinking copious amounts of wine and laughing with old friends, I thought of arm when I couldn't understand much of anything (meaning we spoke mainly in english).. But when they spoke in their native tongue, I'd catch an inkling of a word or a full word, followed by a scrambled mess that sounded.. Well.. Not much like anything save for the rare sound of familiarity.
The point is, I'm not sure how learning languages work.. But I can assure you that once you step out of the latin-based languages, all bets are off in terms of coherence with what you should and shouldn't understand... And this was a half-slav speaking a slavic tongue in a slavic country.. But we had to resort to english b/c we couldn't understand each other :P
Shared words, cognates and language relationships create that kind of thing where you can hear some words. But it's Europe, even in close areas with related languages, there's huge divergence. Sometimes it's the opposite - Romanian and Italian are mutually understable, albeit moreso for the Romanians. It has nothing to do with romance languages... and English is a germanic language, not romance :)
Quote from: Malken on March 26, 2013, 02:23:42 PM
Quote from: Jenred on March 26, 2013, 02:16:38 PM
Well yeah, I would like to hear too...
The problem is that it never seems to get that far! :-\
Case is a pretty damn good mud coder, so if there's someone who could come up with a way to code what she's speaking of, that'd probably be her.
I already have, I helped another coder develop a fast processed language system using encryption that mimics a few models of language learning and obfuscation. If Arm would like to use it, something could be arranged.
Quote from: Morrolan on March 26, 2013, 11:35:13 AM
Quote from: Kismetic on March 26, 2013, 09:40:10 AM
I think it's interesting that you say that, too, because I generally don't think in words, unless I'm consciously doing so.
Ayup. It's a rare person that's wired this way, but it does happen.
I've heard people argue that it doesn't, that all thinking is necessarily in a language.
But the people arguing that were wrong. As a trained meditation instructor, I can say that with 100% certainty.
And finally, to comment on this.
I am just the same. I don't think in words. There's something of a complex relationship between concepts, words and understanding. I do believe that thinking in concepts has a subset of concepts bound to words with some abstract wriggle room. While you may not think in words, the words you do use and the language you use are linguistically bound to the same methods of thinking and communication as somebody who does, any abstraction of that further by your mind is on you and your weird ass head :).
Yup. Brain is wired for language. Deal.
Quote from: Case on March 26, 2013, 05:09:19 PM
I am just the same. I don't think in words. There's something of a complex relationship between concepts, words and understanding. I do believe that thinking in concepts has a subset of concepts bound to words with some abstract wriggle room. While you may not think in words, the words you do use and the language you use are linguistically bound to the same methods of thinking and communication as somebody who does, any abstraction of that further by your mind is on you and your weird ass head :).
I usually think in images, with an undertone of music (often bad music, right now it's "You the fuckin' best, you the fuckin' best, you're the best I ever haaad"), but when I read
slowly I will think of those words I am looking at. Again, when I become absorbed in reading, the words disappear and imagery takes over. I have a photographic memory, though not perfect by any standards, as it is worn through age and drug abuse. As I said, I only think in words when consciously doing so, mainly while reading and writing, or thinking of a careful answer in a social situation.
Quote from: musashi on March 26, 2013, 06:34:58 PM
Yup. Brain is wired for language. Deal.
Methinks musashi only thinks in platitudes. :-*
Quote from: Case on March 26, 2013, 04:53:37 PM
Quote from: Malken on March 26, 2013, 02:23:42 PM
Case is a pretty damn good mud coder, so if there's someone who could come up with a way to code what she's speaking of, that'd probably be her.
I already have, I helped another coder develop a fast processed language system using encryption that mimics a few models of language learning and obfuscation. If Arm would like to use it, something could be arranged.
That's not telling us details about how it works. :(
Quote from: Kismetic on March 26, 2013, 07:14:01 PM
*thinking in pictures*
I'm similar. It's not especially rare though.
My mother was brought to Puerto Rico at the age of 29 not knowing a SINGLE word of Spanish. Nada. She learned it in less than a year by ....
Watching Soap Operas. Not even kidding.
English and Spanish are very far apart. If my mother could learn it, fluently, by watching a couple of hours of TV a day, anyone can.
People don't always think in words. This is a fact.
People do always think in language. This statement does not contradict the one above.
Quote from: Patuk on March 26, 2013, 08:14:18 PM
People don't always think in words. This is a fact.
People do always think in language. This statement does not contradict the one above.
At least somebody gets it. ;)
Edit: missed the always.
Yes. That's correct.
I like Case's suggestion of adding an inverse relationship with age* to the speed of learning languages. I can't say this for sure but I imagine that wisdom being high helps; as it is now, with wisdom going up with age, that means young'ns actually have a penalty to learn languages which should be negated with a boost for age.
Quote from: Kismetic on March 26, 2013, 08:17:25 PM
Quote from: Patuk on March 26, 2013, 08:14:18 PM
People don't always think in words. This is a fact.
People do always think in language. This statement does not contradict the one above.
At least somebody gets it. ;)
Exactly.
Quote from: Harmless on March 26, 2013, 08:28:43 PM
I like Case's suggestion of adding an inverse relationship with age* to the speed of learning languages. I can't say this for sure but I imagine that wisdom being high helps; as it is now, with wisdom going up with age, that means young'ns actually have a penalty to learn languages which should be negated with a boost for age.
Yes there is some credibility to "young people learn languages faster" - like babies that can learn 10 languages before they are 8.
However, in terms of playability, Im against age-based-skill anything, untill there is a way to inversely apply it.
Like... if I don't want to create a teen character, but don't want to miss out on the wisdom+ perks of being a youth character capable of learning.
My character /would've/ been young at one point, but there would be no way to account for that codedly without it seeming like just giving perks out.
Quote from: Jenred on March 27, 2013, 05:46:14 AM
Quote from: Harmless on March 26, 2013, 08:28:43 PM
I like Case's suggestion of adding an inverse relationship with age* to the speed of learning languages. I can't say this for sure but I imagine that wisdom being high helps; as it is now, with wisdom going up with age, that means young'ns actually have a penalty to learn languages which should be negated with a boost for age.
Yes there is some credibility to "young people learn languages faster" - like babies that can learn 10 languages before they are 8.
However, in terms of playability, Im against age-based-skill anything, untill there is a way to inversely apply it.
Like... if I don't want to create a teen character, but don't want to miss out on the wisdom+ perks of being a youth character capable of learning.
My character /would've/ been young at one point, but there would be no way to account for that codedly without it seeming like just giving perks out.
What? Age already has a huge impact on your character. And right now it's not balanced in favor of very young PCs at all. Allowing them to pick up extra languages more easily would be the tiniest of buffs because if you really want extra language you can just take nomad/linguist and be done with it.
Age only effects stats, and not that significantly unless you are talking extremely low or extremely high end. I've had middle-aged PCs with better stats then characters in their prime, and vice versa. I don't consider the variegated nature of the stat and stat rolling code to, as you say, having "a huge impact" on your PC that is "not at all balanced" towards young people.
If role-played correctly it is already easy enough to pick up languages.
I'm against the idea of age-affecting skills, unless part of a grander bargain of age-related aspects.
If anything should modify language acquisition, it should be the number of languages you currently know.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on March 27, 2013, 12:49:15 PM
If anything should modify language acquisition, it should be the number of languages you currently know.
Especially in the case of related languages; if someone knows sirihish and bendune, they should pick up cavilish like lightning.
If such can be coded without too much trouble, absolutely.
Pretty sure that's how it is ... Isn't it?
Not in my experience. I had a native bendune/sirihish speaker who tried for almost 16 IC years to learn cavilish.
Despite good wisdom and plenty of exposure, she never branched it.