I'm of the opinion that heavy armor is way too powerful in this game. That if it weren't so protective, there'd be a lot less of the idea that Strength is the greatest stat for warriors. Realistically I think that fighting in armor, in the hotter climates, should be very detrimental. I believe that if this were so we'd see a lot more armored Tuluki's and sand-cloth adorned southerns. But as it is everyone and their grandmother is decked out in the heaviest shit they can codedly wear without slipping past heavy but manageable.
That said I'm pretty much a noob to coded things, and I could be wrong on the balance of this. But as it stands, there's practically zero incentive to play a character that aligns with the documentation of the southern cities.
I disagree. I think it's fine. And not everyone decks themselves out in the heaviest shit possible. It depends on the character for me. I've had characters that used lots of ranges of armors. There is plenty of incentive to play a character that aligns with their cities as far as combat styles and gear. I guess I'm confused as to why you believe there isn't. I can't remember the last time played a southern combat pc that wore heavy armor.
To add: There are also negatives to each style as far as armor goes as well. Both different but both are there.
Skill can eventually outshine strength. Roughly a year ago, my character was heavily into sparring. I regularly trained with a clan member who was so weak that she couldn't even wear armor aside from the lightest of leathers. For the longest time she would hit me with training daggers but never get through my medium to heavy armor. After a few months of practice, she finally began doing damage, and, at that point, she really didn't miss very often. If she had been the warrior guild, she would have been that much more effective, even with her abysmal strength score.
However, I do agree that a lot of people seem to disregard the regional docs when it comes to armor and weapon style choices. It can take a lot to shift from the gamer mind-set to the role-play mind-set.
* There is a definite different between light / easily managed / heavy / unbelievable you might not notice it but it's there.
* Certain armors provide benefits and drawbacks beyond the ability to say: "Aha, tis but a scratch!"
* I think you'll actually find sandcloth is the most common armor type. Nearly every PC had at least a piece or two. [Especially when in clans that do enforce an armor dress code like Noble Houses]
* I think a lot of players are picky about what their gear looks like. Go talk to a Salarr sometime about their armor selection. Maybe look and see how many different color schemes and styles there are?
Quote from: Bilanthri on August 17, 2011, 11:25:07 PM
Skill can eventually outshine strength. Roughly a year ago, my character was heavily into sparring. I regularly trained with a clan member who was so weak that she couldn't even wear armor aside from the lightest of leathers. For the longest time she would hit me with training daggers but never get through my medium to heavy armor. After a few months of practice, she finally began doing damage, and, at that point, she really didn't miss very often. If she had been the warrior guild, she would have been that much more effective, even with her abysmal strength score.
However, I do agree that a lot of people seem to disregard the regional docs when it comes to armor and weapon style choices. It can take a lot to shift from the gamer mind-set to the role-play mind-set.
this cause lost my train of thought and Jeshin's post as well
Quote from: Bilanthri on August 17, 2011, 11:25:07 PM
Skill can eventually outshine strength. Roughly a year ago, my character was heavily into sparring. I regularly trained with a clan member who was so weak that she couldn't even wear armor aside from the lightest of leathers. For the longest time she would hit me with training daggers but never get through my medium to heavy armor. After a few months of practice, she finally began doing damage, and, at that point, she really didn't miss very often. If she had been the warrior guild, she would have been that much more effective, even with her abysmal strength score.
However, I do agree that a lot of people seem to disregard the regional docs when it comes to armor and weapon style choices. It can take a lot to shift from the gamer mind-set to the role-play mind-set.
Just gonna point out with that character,she was an elf that started with poor strength. That was a BITCH.
I had to beg the imms to reorder my stats and then ended up with average strength. That was marginally more manageable.
I wish she lived a few days longer to see how much better she would get. Though I remember a human assassin with relatively less training would pummel her in the sparring ring.
Though I wish she lived longer so I could see exactly what the discrepancy between low strength assassins of different races would be.
All of my best warriors and rangers wore almost no armor at all.
Including the ones that Won in luirfest pit fights, Of which I have 3 and 2 runner ups.
Armors, as has been stated, have bonuses and negs. Heavy armor for those that can really wear it...and by really wear it I mean strong enough that even in horror plate they are not encumbered beyond light. Generally have a true need, why, because they have low agi and speed. And it only makes sense that somebody who cannot dodge for shit should be wearing heavier protection.
Also, generally, the protectiveness of heavier armors is FAR less then you might think. Far below what they really should be when you check the descriptions.
Lastly, it sorta seems to me that often when people complain about armor it is because they have a weak or low skill PC and want to even the field...which to me is sort of lame.
I think Arm has a very good balance, skill trumps gear by a large margin but gear is good enough to be useful. I know of other muds where gear is 90% of a fight. The 1 day PC in steel plate will beat the 50 day master skilled PC in scale, every single time. In arm this is not the case. In arm the 50 day poor str elf has a very good chance to beat the 1 day HG in plate. Sure, it would take a very long time, and there is a risk the HG could land a lucky blow and end the fight...but then, that is as it should be as well.
Seems like thinks really do work how I'd expect them to. Wonder why I really don't see that reflected in what characters use in-game. They're probably all like me, just ignorant.
Actually RGS...you are correct. :)
No joke now, When I am playing a killer or raider or another type that might target others.
My PC pays close attention to the weight of the gear on the target. And if he sees somebody who is over weight armor wise compared to likely str, They are a far more likely target then somebody in low weight items.
And it has never failed me picking on the slow thickly armored guy, while I have been unpleasently surprised when picking on the dude wearing sandcloth and leather.
Many people simply go on looks with no thought to code or being realistic to be honest. I don't know how many times my PCs have commented to others about how heavy things must be and be answered with "Yup, I can barely move...but I like the way it looks."
I like playing all styles of combat PCs, from the tanks to the agile ninja styles to the more middle of the road profesionals that carefully pick and choose everything for the perfect balance. To the poor out for the money merc bruiser who does not care long as it is cheap, to raiders who only wear trophy items.
And have been highly successful with all of them.
it's always been relative to my characters stats what armor they wear. For example even if im playing a southerner if he's mul strong with exceptional or better endurance therefore in my reasoning has a high pain tolerance and can weather the elements more effectively than less hardy folk. He'll be decked out in heavy armor. If he's a scrawny little spitfuck even if he's a northron he'll be decked out in leathers and sandcloth. Fighters use equipment that works for them. IRL and in the game world. They play to their strengths and try to minimize their weaknesses.
But.. I would agree that there is a large amount of players who have their characters in equipment that doesn't make sense. For the aesthetic effect.
I used 'value' on a certain piece of heavy armour the other day. It weighed half as much as my PC. Generally the really super-heavy types can only be worn by the very strongest.
I can see how this must be frustrating. It can be very easy to think strength and armour are overpowered when you're sparring with a strong person wearing heavy armor. I'm assuming the sparring part (where most combat observations take place), but just remember how much strength and armour lend themselves to sparring performance. Strong PCs do a lot more damage with sparring weapons, and sparring weapons don't do so well against armour.
Now there's something I'm not as sure about in terms of detrimental effects because I have limited experience since it was introduced, am I right in thinking you can get Krath's touch very easily by wearing heavy armour when it's hot? I just remember putting a full helm on once and getting sick very quickly.
Quote from: Bilanthri on August 17, 2011, 11:25:07 PM
However, I do agree that a lot of people seem to disregard the regional docs when it comes to armor and weapon style choices. It can take a lot to shift from the gamer mind-set to the role-play mind-set.
Part of this is a code issue. One style requires a skill that branches from another style's skill. That's a problem. (I could be completely mistaken.)
Quote from: Barzalene on August 18, 2011, 07:25:37 AM
Quote from: Bilanthri on August 17, 2011, 11:25:07 PM
However, I do agree that a lot of people seem to disregard the regional docs when it comes to armor and weapon style choices. It can take a lot to shift from the gamer mind-set to the role-play mind-set.
Part of this is a code issue. One style requires a skill that branches from another style's skill. That's a problem. (I could be completely mistaken.)
I believe Morgenes has said that due to a quirk in the code it's impossible to have a skill branch from more than one other skills, but if you have managed to get two-handed to a level where you think dual-wield would branch a skill or vice versa, you can send in a request.
This was said back when two-handed was changed codedly to be a viable alternative.
That is correct.
Cool, but... I am not certain I understand. Also, one style will leave you far more vulnerable until such time as you might branch. And if you die before getting to the piint where you can write in and get the skill branched this is a less attractive feature than using the wrong style and bettering your shot at surviving.(Unless I misunderstand)
In the end, this isn't a huge deal. It doesn't break the game. But it accounts for the schism between documentation and practice.
Quote from: Barzalene on August 18, 2011, 09:13:45 AM
Cool, but... I am not certain I understand. Also, one style will leave you far more vulnerable until such time as you might branch. And if you die before getting to the piint where you can write in and get the skill branched this is a less attractive feature than using the wrong style and bettering your shot at surviving.(Unless I misunderstand)
In the end, this isn't a huge deal. It doesn't break the game. But it accounts for the schism between documentation and practice.
I'm not sure what you mean. Since we're talking about a skill that branches, neither style gets any benefit from it until it appears on your skill list.
I can't explain without an inappropriate amount of IC info.
Quote from: Spoon on August 18, 2011, 07:15:17 AM
I used 'value' on a certain piece of heavy armour the other day.
Remember that value itself is a skill. Even valuing something to get the average weight is going to be off with a low value skill.
Quote from: Barzalene on August 18, 2011, 09:13:45 AM
Cool, but... I am not certain I understand. Also, one style will leave you far more vulnerable until such time as you might branch.
I don't see how that is the case. Neither helpfile indicates that is the case.
Quoteusing the wrong style and bettering your shot at surviving.
There is no wrong style.
Well, since having this conversation in code isn't giving me any information to work with and I can't clarify without breaking rules there's no point continuing.
Except for my position is unassailable and this thread is done.
Request Tool.
It won't work on my phone, unfortunately.
There are advantages and disadvantages to using different weapon styles. Those are spelled out in the helpfiles. Two-handed vs dual wield vs one weapon and shield. You can decide for yourself what works better for your character and for your character's place of origin.
The same goes for armor and everything else.
Armor
Heavily Armored Moderately Armored Lightly Armored/not armored
X--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------X
Heavily Encumbered Encumbered, but not badly Little to no encumbrance
Armor = protection from damage, but encumbrance may mean you get hit more often, combat abilities will flag, and stamina will drop quickly. This is the armor tradeoff.
Fighting Types
You can either two-hand, dual wield, or weapon + shield.
Pros and cons:
Two handed (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,30290.msg334625.html#msg334625) -- higher frequency of attack with a two handed weapon based on 2h skill, higher damage from strength, higher damage with higher skill, easier to disarm someone if you have a 2h weapon and are disarming (conversely, harder to disarm someone that has a 2h weapon, harder to defend yourself without a shield, and even if you attack more often it may not be as much as someone with two or more weapons)
Dual wield -- not as much GDB code coverage here, but one can observe that there are two weapons (more attacks) with less strength being applied to each (less damage than 2h, all things equal), easier to parry with two weapons, easier to be hit because you have no shield
Weapon + shield -- one weapon (less attacks), one shield (less chance of being hit or damaged, better chance of blocking attacks), overall easier to defend
Take your pick. Each one has trade offs, and not all weapons work great in every style. There is no wrong style.
The option of wielding with one hand and leaving a hand free has its uses also, but not a ton of documented advantages. I'd estimate the major advantage is having a hand free. ;)
Armor gets more interesting the more I learn about it in game. It's neat.
Edit: Fighting unarmed also has some interesting aspects! But be careful with that. There's a reason for tool use.
The only interesting thing about unarmed fighting is that zalanthan fists have chi, and do thirty stun damage on a grazing hit.
Quote from: MeTekillot on August 18, 2011, 03:05:22 PM
The only interesting thing about unarmed fighting is that zalanthan fists have chi, and do thirty stun damage on a grazing hit.
I believe it only says it's a grazing hit is because it is low hp damage. I don't think the severity of the damage as far as how it's worded takes into account the amount of stun damage. If this is the case, maybe it could be tweaked so that stun damage also determines the wording of the severity of the hit as well. I don't really think it's a big deal though.
Most "good" armor items have weights that are pretty ridiculous, and the way armor seems to work is pretty rudimentary.
Presumably the dudes coding armor for 2.Arm will take a slightly more in-depth approach to the equations, though.
Quote from: Bacon on August 18, 2011, 03:31:20 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on August 18, 2011, 03:05:22 PM
The only interesting thing about unarmed fighting is that zalanthan fists have chi, and do thirty stun damage on a grazing hit.
I believe it only says it's a grazing hit is because it is low hp damage. I don't think the severity of the damage as far as how it's worded takes into account the amount of stun damage. If this is the case, maybe it could be tweaked so that stun damage also determines the wording of the severity of the hit as well. I don't really think it's a big deal though.
No. They have chi. End of discussion.
Does that mean I really -can- Hadoken? .... sweet.
Quote from: CravenMadness on August 18, 2011, 11:55:03 PM
Does that mean I really -can- Hadoken? .... sweet.
I hamedo your Hadoken and end this discussion!
Shoryuken.
Image Removed
Endokuken
Jago
Foreshizle
Back on topic.
Mixing up light and heavier armors works wonders too. Why not wear that heavy breastplate where you're more likely to get hit? Throw in a collard and helm and leave the rest to light sandcloth.
This seems to work well for even sneaky types.
Don't different weapon types have different advantages and disadvantages?
Seems to me that their could be one that would do well against a heavily armored foe.
Back to the OP -
While I do agree that southerners would tend to wear lighter armor, I feel as if the formal military types might be able to get away with it.
You're hot? Tough luck... hold the line.
The rangy types always spending their time outdoors clad in heavy armor does seem a bit off though.
I believe that mostly depends on the armor, not the weapon. Where most "normal" armor protects evenly against most weapons, and there are some "special" armors, designed to stop certain weapons.
Could be wrong though.
SKILL WEAPONS
Weapon skills represent specialised knowledge in the use of a particular class of weapons. All weapons fall into one of four general categories: bludgeoning, chopping, piercing, and slashing. Stabbing weapons are merely a subset of piercing ones.
If one possesses, for example, the 'chopping weapons' skill, then one's usage of an axe is improved both in ability to land blows and to parry those of others, the degree of improvement depending on one's level of accomplishment in that skill.
Each category of weapon has its own characteristics, which should become evident as your character becomes more familiar with its usage.
The last line is what I am pointing at.
edited to add:
Armor (Combat)
Armor is any piece of equipment in the game that can be worn on your character's body as a defensive measure. You will notice that an item is considered armor if its condition used, worn out, etc.) is shown with the item's name (e.g., a used pair of studded sleeves).
Good armor is relatively scarce, and much armor is scavenged from various places, so a piecemeal armor system is used in Armageddon. This means that if your character wears some armor on their arms, only their arms will be protected. This system allows you to manage the weight of armor your character is carrying fairly well. Note that such ideas as Armor Class are not present in Armageddon.
During combat, specific hit locations are determined, and if there is armor on that body part, some protection may be afforded. The armor may block none, some, or all of the damage, but in any case, be aware that the character will still probably take stun damage.
Some races have naturally tough skin which can absorb the damage of some blows done to them. Several spells exist which can augment a character's natural armor, thickening the skin or forging a hard shell around the target of the spell.
Armor's ability to shield you from blows will degrade with use; its condition will be reflected in its short description as it changes.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on August 20, 2011, 11:59:20 PM
I believe that mostly depends on the armor, not the weapon. Where most "normal" armor protects evenly against most weapons, and there are some "special" armors, designed to stop certain weapons.
Could be wrong though.
Well, realistically speaking most armor actually protects better against certain weapons. I'd rather be bludgeoned while wearing cushy leathers than a heavy platemail that's likely to crack and break and just hurt like hell because there's no give to it. I'd also rather be wearing heavy platemail than leather when somebody is swinging a sword at me.
In this game, though, I do not believe armor has any coded advantage/disadvantage against any type of weapon.
And there would be a very good chance you are wrong there.
X-D speaks the truth.
Quote from: X-D on August 21, 2011, 02:14:11 AM
And there would be a very good chance you are wrong there.
+1
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on August 20, 2011, 11:59:20 PM
I believe that mostly depends on the armor, not the weapon.
Weapons have differing properties too, although I'm not sure if you'd consider things like different damage ranges and such to be 'special properties.' There are, of course, the more logistical properties, as well, like 'can be used for skinning,' 'tends to deal more stun than hp damage,' 'fits in one hand,' 'can be put in a sheath,' 'can be poisoned,' 'is suitable for throwing,' 'is very fragile/durable,' and so on.
i tend to get good armor for my vulnerable spots (ones that can reel from a blow, places that get hit most often) and leave it at that so i'm still light on my feet.
not the best method for bringing about the next Fall of Tuluk, but its good for running away shamelessly and sneaking through the wilderness.
Might I suggest the topic of the best way to wear armor be moved in-game?
It's an awesome thing to explore as a tactician, fighter, crafter, etc.
Quote from: Feco on August 21, 2011, 03:06:34 PM
Might I suggest the topic of the best way to wear armor be moved in-game?
It's an awesome thing to explore as a tactician, fighter, crafter, etc.
Absolutely agreed. There are plenty of people in game that can give you an idea, and plenty of clans that you can join that you can test this out with.
I tend to favor leather and light chitin armors or leather-reinforced sandcloth. I also favor to keep my encumberance as low as possible, preferably no problem or the lighter end of 'light' when fully loaded with survival and combat gear.
Nyr leaves out one very very important quirk of the two-handed skill.
Strength is often very offsetting in combat. It is quickly overpowering and underpowering, depending on your race and stat roll. If an opponent with high strength comes after you, all the armor in the Known won't do you a bit of good unless you're skilled enough to use it.
Quote from: Sephiroto on August 22, 2011, 01:57:00 PM
unless you're skilled enough to use it.
That is another point, sometimes I almost feel that my pcs have to -grow- into their armor as well, learn to function in the type of armor they are wearing. Which would make sense. Learning how to move in it, the limitations and what not.
It could be me, but when I change armor even within the same weight encumbrances I feel like I notice there is an adjustment period.
Quote from: Synthesis on August 18, 2011, 03:51:02 PM
Presumably the dudes coding armor for 2.Arm will take a slightly more in-depth approach to the equations, though.
Most definitely. Armor will be very important to combat oriented players and will reflect a strong base of realism.
One thing I always wanted to see, but completely acknowledge that it would be a complete pain in the ass. Of course, it could actually already be in without me knowing it, but I figured I might've noticed.
Basically, instead of a flat 'armor value' attached to armor, making liberal use of defensive modifications to armor. Brief example...set resistances to each piece of armor to each weapon type, plus their 'base armor value' for the material it's made from, plus the effect on mobility (Lots of armors in game that talk about the mobility of the armor being the prime asset). So each type of armor is stronger to certain things, such as quilted armor doing better against slashing attacks, while chainmail type things are stronger against piercing attacks and arrows, etc. If mobility is to be factored in, every bit of non-mobile armor needs to affect the mobility...
My opinion was always that if we concentrated on doing that, you'd end up with very customized sets of armor, particularly when it came to uniforms of groups that work with certain purposes. Overall, armor itself would be stronger, unless a weakness was exploited, but the mobility would become an actual issue.
Essentially, 'damage type resistances' added into armors in a logical way could drastically change the way a lot of people armor themselves. For one...a hunter and soldier might finally actually dress differently.
One thing I consider when purchasing armor in game is the design of the piece. I often choose armor that looks easier to move in and has curved surfaces to deflect blows, rather than thick-plated pieces. Basically, I look for the ability to turn attackss rather than stop them. I have no idea if this is factored into the armor/defense code at all, but along with the concepts discussed in the post above by Armaddict, I'd like to see something like this make way into the 2.0 code base.
From an RP standpoint, I would be happy to see more people doing this, as well as seeking out weapons to exploit the weaknesses of their opponent's armor, whether or not the coded aspects currently exist. It isn't always practical because of possible coded disadvantages, but it is quite a lot of fun to play a PC who chooses their armor and weapons based on IC factors, rather than metagaming.
Quote from: Sephiroto on September 03, 2011, 05:35:31 AM
One thing I consider when purchasing armor in game is the design of the piece. I often choose armor that looks easier to move in and has curved surfaces to deflect blows, rather than thick-plated pieces. Basically, I look for the ability to turn attackss rather than stop them. I have no idea if this is factored into the armor/defense code at all, but along with the concepts discussed in the post above by Armaddict, I'd like to see something like this make way into the 2.0 code base.
From an RP standpoint, I would be happy to see more people doing this, as well as seeking out weapons to exploit the weaknesses of their opponent's armor, whether or not the coded aspects currently exist. It isn't always practical because of possible coded disadvantages, but it is quite a lot of fun to play a PC who chooses their armor and weapons based on IC factors, rather than metagaming.
I like this, and too some extent it does exist. A lot of pieces of armor/equipment hint at possible fringe bonuses in their descriptions. For example, one fairly common bracer hints that it may be used to turn blows (aka, parry bonus). I always seek them out for my lightly armored, or non-shield use combat types.
Quote from: Potaje on August 22, 2011, 02:33:43 PM
That is another point, sometimes I almost feel that my pcs have to -grow- into their armor as well, learn to function in the type of armor they are wearing. Which would make sense. Learning how to move in it, the limitations and what not.
It could be me, but when I change armor even within the same weight encumbrances I feel like I notice there is an adjustment period.
I like this idea a lot. Like, if there were a hidden "armor profficiency light/medium/heavy" skill that was dependent on class/starting region, the way some combat skills currently are. (It's been a year. I'm sure most of you have noticed that southerners start with higher dual wield and slashing, and northerners with higher chopping.)
For instance:
Light | Medium | Heavy
-------------------------------------------------------------
Warrior | +10 | +5 | 0
Ass. | +5 | 0 | - 10
Ranger | +7 | 0 | - 7
South | +10 | 0 | -10
North | +2 | +5 | 0
*These numbers would apply to something simple like chance to dodge. Some classes would start with bonuses or penalties with these general categories of armor. Light armor his high to offer a real benefit to it's usage. Heavy armor is low because I don't think you should be offered BONUSES to dodging shit in plate mail. But at the best, you could be granted no penalty.
**This table is basically doodled from my understanding of class & regional factors in the coded aspect of defense, and the documented armor preference. Please don't derail into a debate about what you think the numbers should be. They don't exist.In this way, a warrior with god strength couldn't just roll up, and find the heaviest armor he can afford, and simply get away with it. IN fact, he would likely need to train in lighter armor to begin with until certain defensive skills are higher, then move his way up to medium or heavy once his other combat experience will compensate for the thicker/heavier gear. His heavy armor would still absorb a lot of damage, but he would also get hit more often until he got used to the armor.
I like this idea but think it should be more like this:
For instance:
Light | Medium | Heavy
-------------------------------------------------------------
Warrior | +10 | +10 | +10
Ass. | +5 | 0 | - 10
Ranger | +7 | 0 | - 7
Other Guilds | 0 | -5 | -10
South | +5 | 0 | -5
North | -5 | 0 | +5
In addition to any encumbrance penalties/bonuses that would normally apply. Don't forget, light, medium, and heavy are relative to the strength of the character wearing them. A stronger pc is going to be able to move more easily in heavier armors. Those of the warrior guild would have a bit of background in training with various armors in general with an adjustment due to where they come from.
I like RPGs that have armor skills and their proficiencies in them. The higher it goes the better you are at "wearing" the armor. You know how to strap it on properly.
This proficiency should reflect what you can wear by type (heavy, light, medium) and how well you perform under it. It beats adding static bonuses.
Quote. Don't forget, light, medium, and heavy are relative to the strength of the character wearing them.
Not really. It's referring to the armor itself. Leather is obviously light. Some chitins/bones are medium. Plate, scale, etc are heavy. Just because you're strong enough to wear platemail without turning into a slug doesn't mean that it's light. Just means you can handle it.
And what I was getting at with my table was that any armor that fell into the heavy catagory should have negs to dodge. I think the best you should hope for with heavy is that it reaches zero (doesn't slow you down at all). Under no circumstances should it also offer a bonus. Otherwise, every time you see a dwarf with bash, platemail, and a northern accent, RUN! :p
Though, this is all just my mind wandering. I like the way the armor is now. I think there's plenty of room bonuses to be offered for any style. (Heavy, light, codpiece-only, etc.) I've had bad-asses in tortoiseshell, and bad-asses in a thong and boots.
To follow up what was said above: Just because armor isn't that heavy to you because you're a buff stud, doesn't mean it is easy to move in. "Heavy" armors are typically covered with solid plates or thick scales and that restricts mobility.
I'm going to have to not agree.
If your PC is average, so the average person can carry say 200lbs MAX, so, 30lbs of armor is light, say thats all leather types, and 31-70 is medium, chitin, bone, and 71-120 is heavy, most your plate armors and some scale and chain.
Alright, nobody that fits in the max lift weight of 200lbs will think that the heavy armors are light.
But, what if you have a PC with a max lift weight of 800lbs? By ratio, the "heavy" armor IS light, and that PC should be able to move in it almost as good as the 200lbs max PC in light leather armors. Now sure, the plates etc might be more restricting, there is no getting around that point, which is why I said "almost" as good. But for encumbrance and moving the mass the stronger one should do A LOT better.
And if you are that extremely strong then you can and should be able to treat the armor as light for all intents and purposes. And Light armors should be treated as nothing at all.
Also, well made plate armors are far less restricting then you might think. Scale and chain are made for the purpose of least restriction in fact. Both being flexible, often more flexible then the leather or quilted gear you wear under them.
What X-D said I completely agree with.
Also, this isn't about making it even harder for people to use heavier armors, this is about making it a more dynamic system.
The logic X-D uses is sound, however, I still don't agree. Light is usually a synonym to highly manueverable. Heavy with little manueverability.
Instead of the OPs catagories of Light, Heavy, and Medium. I suggest we focus it on restriction. Light Restrictions, Medium, and Heavy.
I disagree because not all armors that currently classify as heavy due to weight would necessarily classify as heavy due to being restrictive. And not all armors that are currently classified as medium due to weight would be classified as medium due to being restrictive, etc.
What you're talking about would require a complete and total overhaul of everything. The system, all armor items, etc. It would also need to include a way to compare armor's weight and restrictiveness to each other.
Currently from my experience armors give a flat negative to damage in those locations and is very simplistic, with some armors hinting in their descriptions to give +/- to your offense defense skills. I love the idea of making armor a more complex part of the game so you don't have every HG/mul/dwarf walking around in silt-horror shell and every assassin/burglar/pickpocket rolling around in their inky-black/night-dark/midnight blue leather stuff.
Complex armor systems will make for more realistic character choices.
Though I don't like the idea of class-based armors systems, or class-based anything for that matter.
i don't see anyone in this thread calling for keeping armor simple. So i'll do it.
in a world with essentially no metal i fail to see what's wrong ICly with wearing the heaviest armor you can lift and afford as long as there is an appropriate stamina/hide penalty.
You can scream realism all you want, but that basic premise IS realistic to me. You will over-complicate things by making it more realistic and nuanced for what is, in my opinion, a small gain in playability.
imo
Sandcloth - light
horror/bone scale or chain - heavy
everything else... - medium.
Actually if anyone cared to do the research, heavy plate armors were -not- nearly as restrictive as you think they are. In fact, medieval knights had complete and full maneuverability in their plate armors, and were able to fight just as well as anybody else could in their leathers. Better, in fact, because they had good training.
Quote from: Saellyn on September 10, 2011, 08:43:54 PM
Actually if anyone cared to do the research, heavy plate armors were -not- nearly as restrictive as you think they are. In fact, medieval knights had complete and full maneuverability in their plate armors, and were able to fight just as well as anybody else could in their leathers. Better, in fact, because they had good training.
Depends on the make, quality and weight of the heavy plate armour in question.
No, not really. It depends on if you are talking about weight/enc verses strength or restriction.
And yes, if you are a scrawny bookworm, the weight will slow you down and increase restriction. If you are not, well, it will not. One of the joys of spending so much time in the SCA is wearing of many different styles of armor in a combat situation. Which is why I already said that Chain, Scale and Plate are far less restrictive then many people seem to assume. In fact, many of the armors that people consider "light" in fact, weigh more then the ones people consider heavy.
I suspect it would be easier to code individual armor pieces to relate to specific armor proficiencies. Working from that, characters with those skills (crafting and/or use) would be able (hopefully) to recognize which type of armor a piece related to.
>Inventory
A bone-plated leather gauntlet
>assess gauntlet
A bone-plated leather gauntlet is a medium armor.
A bone-plated leather gauntlet covers your right hand and wrist.
A bone-plated leather gauntlet will fit you.
Quote from: Case on September 10, 2011, 09:00:57 PM
Quote from: Saellyn on September 10, 2011, 08:43:54 PM
Actually if anyone cared to do the research, heavy plate armors were -not- nearly as restrictive as you think they are. In fact, medieval knights had complete and full maneuverability in their plate armors, and were able to fight just as well as anybody else could in their leathers. Better, in fact, because they had good training.
Depends on the make, quality and weight of the heavy plate armour in question.
Sorry, forgot.
These knights would also do things like -run- and -sprint- and -dance- and -jump- in their armor.
Does that help?
Quote from: Saellyn on September 10, 2011, 09:22:19 PM
Quote from: Case on September 10, 2011, 09:00:57 PM
Quote from: Saellyn on September 10, 2011, 08:43:54 PM
Actually if anyone cared to do the research, heavy plate armors were -not- nearly as restrictive as you think they are. In fact, medieval knights had complete and full maneuverability in their plate armors, and were able to fight just as well as anybody else could in their leathers. Better, in fact, because they had good training.
Depends on the make, quality and weight of the heavy plate armour in question.
Sorry, forgot.
These knights would also do things like -run- and -sprint- and -dance- and -jump- in their armor.
Does that help?
Depends on quality, articulation and weight, as I said. Some armour was flexible, some not.
I bet metal makes better armor than bone.
Hey guys?
There's some heavy armor IG that weighs around ten stones.
Now a rough translation of that into pounds is around twenty two pounds.
This is for just one bit of gear.... Whereas a full suit of steel plate mail weighed somewhere around 45-50 pounds.
Armguards.
Weighing nearly half a full suit of RL plate mail.
......
Adjust your arguments accordingly.
::Edited to add::
Besides, even if a full suit of Zalanthan heavy armor weighed less than 50lbs, I'd still contend that one would tire out -ALOT- faster than someone not wearing any.
Plate-clad knights flopping over on the battlefield from exhaustion wasn't exactly an unusual thing, back in the day. That's why they were mounted, more often than not.
The only inflexible armor in the middle ages was purely ceremonial in nature. I am talking full plate battle armor, not your full plate ceremonial garbage armor that wasn't even useful on a real battlefield.
Quote from: Saellyn on September 11, 2011, 05:27:40 AM
The only inflexible armor in the middle ages was purely ceremonial in nature. I am talking full plate battle armor, not your full plate ceremonial garbage armor that wasn't even useful on a real battlefield.
Exactly.... Alot of "heavy" armor IG could be comparable to that full-plate ceremonial garbage armor that wasn't even useful on a real battlefield.
Nah, I ignore the in game weights as far as any arguement, Many of them can stand to be bugged anyway, and I think many of them were made and the staffer or whoever was thinking stones=pounds.
A pair of leather sleeves
These are thin leather sleeves.
value sleeves
These would seem to weigh about 8 stone.
So alright, that is 4 stone each, and if you were thinking pounds, then reasonable, but if a stone is closer to 2.5lbs, 8 pounds per sleeve is unreasonable.
OR
All beings in Zalanthas are at least 2.5 times as strong as the earth types and then it is reasonable and we need not adjust our arguements at all:)
And since the docs do state that they are stronger and healthier...I think I will go with that.
I wonder if zalanthian armor makers have mastered the pivot joint connection or the concept of load-bearing bracing bones for full suits of armor that connect to one-another in order to properly counter-balance weight...
Either way, I wish heat exhaustion were taken into account.
Shit'd get hot, yo.
Even African tribal warriors who've lived in hot-as-fuck deserts for thousands of years know better than to go running around in the desert clad in leather.
But I guess we could pass that off with "ZALANTHANS ARE TOUGHER RAWR!" because we all love our heavy armors.
That point has been argued before. And it is a good point. But hey, since the armors are made out of mostly animals, maybe they have some nifty heat sink properties...Who knows?
Though, I do see PCs with kraths touch rather often, so maybe it does help cause it.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on September 11, 2011, 05:39:26 AM
Either way, I wish heat exhaustion were taken into account.
Shit'd get hot, yo.
Even African tribal warriors who've lived in hot-as-fuck deserts for thousands of years know better than to go running around in the desert clad in leather.
But I guess we could pass that off with "ZALANTHANS ARE TOUGHER RAWR!" because we all love our heavy armors.
What exactly -is- the official "general" temperature of Zalanthas during the peak of the day?
Quote from: Saellyn on September 11, 2011, 05:44:52 AM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on September 11, 2011, 05:39:26 AM
Either way, I wish heat exhaustion were taken into account.
Shit'd get hot, yo.
Even African tribal warriors who've lived in hot-as-fuck deserts for thousands of years know better than to go running around in the desert clad in leather.
But I guess we could pass that off with "ZALANTHANS ARE TOUGHER RAWR!" because we all love our heavy armors.
What exactly -is- the official "general" temperature of Zalanthas during the peak of the day?
Quote from: Docs
While a lot does carry over from real life into the game (e.g., principles of gravity, temperature, etc.)...
I'd guess about as hot as deserts IRL do-- and I'd imagine the difference between "Sahara desert" hot and "Mojave desert" hot depends on where in the game world you're in, and what the "weather" command tells you.
If I had to guess, I'd say anywhere between 100-180 degrees Fahrenheit at any given point while outside.
... Man I could follow peoples sweat trails to wherever they were going if the game had sweat trails! Wearing that much armor in this environment really -is- absolutely insane. It probably has a -huge- effect on how fast you dehydrate too, I imagine. Or might. Or could. I don't know...
Well... I don't go to renfairs or any of that and am only speaking from the experience of knowing a few people who each week go outside of Prague with swords and armor and play that sort of stuff + working on a few films (Tristan and Isolde, Kingdom of Heaven, Narnia's, Charles the 4th and some others) that had a few 100 extras in heavy armor and I still keep in contact with the armorors I met on those films...
And when you put 500 extras (most of whom were rein-actors) in heavy armor... that is not made of metal but lighter plastics (so it looks heavy but isn't really).. Have then under a summer sun in 30+ degree heat.. and get them to march back and forth over a field with a charge or two in between.. THEN see a few of them start to pass out from the heat? Theirs no way I could see someone being very maneuverable in plate steel and be able to be swift and nimble with a broadsword, etc.
Even the "hero" armors in films (the ones that are actually steel that only the actor / stuntmen where) would weigh down people if it was full plate or some sort of flexible scale or heavy armor.. and they had to do some fight scene or a lot of running. Only the best stuntman could do more than a few of takes and they weren't very quick on their feet when they did it (was all camera work and tricks)
I highly doubt someone, even well trained, could move under a hot sun and be nimble and very maneuverable in heavy armor b/c when you see a 240 lbs Maori stuntman in a mix of plate and scale armor pass out from heat in the middle of a combat scene.. All the theory and shit you read on the internet goes out the window.
A lot of it is conditioning your body to be able to withstand it.
I am around 12,000 feet above sea level, and we have some walking patrols that take us about six kilometers. Everyone has a vest, helmet, weapon, ammo, but a couple guys had SAWs, extra ammo, or LAW rockets. The temperature was just above a hundred or so. No one fell out.
Most of us don't look like movie stars with rippling abs and pecks that can poke your eye out either. We are just mentally, and physically able to withstand the weight, altitude, temperature and distances because it is what we do. We train with this shit by going out and doing it. I'd pit some of us against the 'Toughest-looking' guys out there when it comes to strapping on some gear and moving distances. Hitting the gym and sculpting your body to look perfect doesn't mean you are suddenly able to do this shit. Fitness helps, but I would say that the mental aspect of it is just as important.
As to heat exhaustion, I would just say that is taken into account by thirst levels and stamina. If you are riding around in all this armor, you aren't really doing a whole lot supposing the person in question has been a rider for a while and is used to it. If walking around is your thing, well damn straight you are going to get tired and have to sit for IG hours to recoup that lost stamina.
Give that 240 lbs Maori stuntman six months of using that armor every day and he'd probably not fall out. The guy didn't know his limits, or just didn't adhere to them. Obviously didn't drink enough water either.
Zalanthans are also much hardier than humans.
Edit to add: Not talking about walking down the road for six kilometers either. Mountainous areas where ten miles can take two days if you had to do it all on foot.
There's a difference between wearing a bunch of heavy shit, and carrying a bunch of heavy shit.
While I don't doubt those boys couldn't have made the trip, I bet they would've been a wee bit more exhausted if most of that gear was strapped to their arms and legs.
Also, I'd imagine wearing heavy shell-- or even heavy leather armor in the desert would feel like walking about in a personal oven. You can drink all the water you want, but you'd probably wind up sweating out more than what you're taking in. You can condition and train all you want, but as far as I know, it's impossible to train yourself to not sweat your tits off in a desert with a suit of bug-shell armor.
As others have suggested, since this bug-shell is from bugs that live in this environment perhaps they have some heat managing properties that helped the bugs and in turn would make them cooler to wear than their real life counterparts. I tend to think this is a reasonable enough explanation. It is not has if heavier armors have no negative side effects when using them already.
Quote from: Bacon on September 11, 2011, 09:16:42 AM
As others have suggested though. Since this bug-shell is from bugs that live in this environment perhaps they have some heat managing properties that helped the bugs and in turn would make them cooler to wear than their real life counterparts.
Meh.
I guess that'll just have to be the explanation for it, I guess.... After so much work being put into 2.arm, I doubt anything like this would be changed for Arm's current carnation anyhow.
Fortunately the vast majority of people who are wearing heavy armor aren't actually physically exerting themselves (much) 90% of the time, because they're chilling on the back of a mount.
Desert-elves are the only ones actually running around, and most of them aren't strong enough to wear the really heavy stuff, anyway.
Ever since the defense nerf, epic half-day duels are a thing of the past. Nowadays most fights are over before you'd even break a sweat...especially if you have the insane strength that would allow you to wear the heavy armor in the first place.
For the record, Wearing is much easier then carrying IRL AND in the game.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on September 11, 2011, 05:39:26 AM
Even African tribal warriors who've lived in hot-as-fuck deserts for thousands of years know better than to go running around in the desert clad in leather.
But I guess we could pass that off with "ZALANTHANS ARE TOUGHER RAWR!" because we all love our heavy armors.
I want to laugh every time I see a d-elf fully clad in leather (and sometimes even heavier materials) armor instead of the loincloth, wrist and neck (and MAYBE head) protection people draw them in (which is much more realistic).
Quote from: FantasyWriter on September 11, 2011, 01:56:58 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on September 11, 2011, 05:39:26 AM
Even African tribal warriors who've lived in hot-as-fuck deserts for thousands of years know better than to go running around in the desert clad in leather.
But I guess we could pass that off with "ZALANTHANS ARE TOUGHER RAWR!" because we all love our heavy armors.
I want to laugh every time I see a d-elf fully clad in leather (and sometimes even heavier materials) armor instead of the loincloth, wrist and neck (and MAYBE head) protection people draw them in (which is much more realistic).
Unfortunately, only very experienced combat PCs with good stats have the luxury of running around with zero armor. Everyone else is just begging to get reel-locked and die prematurely. Carru don't really give a shit about your realistic outfit.
Tribal Earth hunters tended to fight reasonable prey animals, as opposed to, like, velociraptors and giant praying mantises and stuff. So that's a bit of apples2oranginas.
You can get away with zero armor if you're a modest Zalanthan hunter who sticks to areas which aren't frequented by crazy monsters. Gurth aren't going to reel-lock you. (They may, however, boredom-lock you.)
Quote from: X-D on September 11, 2011, 11:51:31 AM
For the record, Wearing is much easier then carrying IRL AND in the game.
True, but what I meant was, "Carrying 20lb <thing> in backpack is easier than wearing 20lb <thing> on your wrist."
I remember back when people complained about how everyone decks their characters up in sandcloth at every single item slot for perceived code advantages it offers.
I've never been a combat heavy player, but these things seem to be cyclical. What often happens is a particular PC will become long lived and be known as a bad-ass. People will emulate that PCs fighting and armour styles because they'll assume it's part of his bad-assery. And so it becomes the predominant style for a while, until another PC becomes known as a bad-ass with a different style.
Quote from: John on September 23, 2011, 01:54:01 AM
I remember back when people complained about how everyone decks their characters up in sandcloth at every single item slot for perceived code advantages it offers.
I've never been a combat heavy player, but these things seem to be cyclical. What often happens is a particular PC will become long lived and be known as a bad-ass. People will emulate that PCs fighting and armour styles because they'll assume it's part of his bad-assery. And so it becomes the predominant style for a while, until another PC becomes known as a bad-ass with a different style.
That was back before the Defense Nerf and reeling, bro.
Almost immediately after those massive code changes, folks started heading for the breastplates and greathelms. It had absolutely nothing to do with cycles or influential players, and everything to do with 1) the fact that your chance to dodge and/or parry dropped by a massive factor, due to a "bug fix," and 2) the fact that higher damage = reeling, and armor = less damage ==> less reeling ==> you can still flee.
Feel free to go out there in sandcloth, though. Pretty soon you'll have the most pro bandaging skill on the block...unless you get reel-locked and die.
Quote from: Synthesis on September 23, 2011, 02:00:22 AMThat was back before the Defense Nerf and reeling, bro.
Aaah okay. Did this new code fix the problem where the only way to kill a mekillot was to have a Byn troop surround it and kick it to death? That was a rather famous issue with the old code (too skilled to get killed by a mekillot, but the mek's skin was too hard to kill with weapons)
Quote from: John on September 23, 2011, 02:46:31 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on September 23, 2011, 02:00:22 AMThat was back before the Defense Nerf and reeling, bro.
Aaah okay. Did this new code fix the problem where the only way to kill a mekillot was to have a Byn troop surround it and kick it to death? That was a rather famous issue with the old code (too skilled to get killed by a mekillot, but the mek's skin was too hard to kill with weapons)
My very informative answer to thee is...
Maybe.
dunno, but I've almost always considered world temperature when deciding character clothing/armor. Probably not too ic to say that most of my characters end up in exactly what folks consider 'in character clothing' ... light main body pieces such as sandcloth, with heavier pieces guarding 'soft spots', comfortable boots, and a big cloak.
I've done the whole, armor up like a stone stump, thing... Doesn't seem to really help much. This game's always seemed that stats and skills make more of a difference for characters, than armor/weapons in combat situations.
People who pile on the heavy armor, pay for it in a lot of little ways if they don't have the brute strength for it. I've experienced the drawbacks, I have seen people too heavily encumbered because of their super protective armor shell... end up exhausted and unable to flee/chase or do those fun little special combat tricks. I've seen people in segmented leather bits and a chest harness fight cylops and duskhorn and other normal size stuff and do fine. -I- typically engage gith or other aggressive types in my reinforced sandcloth..
Game's about taking risks. Everything's a risk. Some preparations help more than others, but everyone's going to prepare as best they think.
Quote from: Synthesis on September 23, 2011, 02:00:22 AM
Quote from: John on September 23, 2011, 01:54:01 AM
I remember back when people complained about how everyone decks their characters up in sandcloth at every single item slot for perceived code advantages it offers.
I've never been a combat heavy player, but these things seem to be cyclical. What often happens is a particular PC will become long lived and be known as a bad-ass. People will emulate that PCs fighting and armour styles because they'll assume it's part of his bad-assery. And so it becomes the predominant style for a while, until another PC becomes known as a bad-ass with a different style.
That was back before the Defense Nerf and reeling, bro.
Almost immediately after those massive code changes, folks started heading for the breastplates and greathelms. It had absolutely nothing to do with cycles or influential players, and everything to do with 1) the fact that your chance to dodge and/or parry dropped by a massive factor, due to a "bug fix," and 2) the fact that higher damage = reeling, and armor = less damage ==> less reeling ==> you can still flee.
Feel free to go out there in sandcloth, though. Pretty soon you'll have the most pro bandaging skill on the block...unless you get reel-locked and die.
Yeah, wearing lighter armors is much more likely to bring about your character's death now than prior to the "defense fix" (nerf) and the addition of reel. I still use them when appropriate but before, wearing lighter armor just meant that you got hit harder and had to flee sooner. Now, it's when the first time a moderately hard hit lands you run your ass off if you didn't get reeled right off. If you got reeled...you might not be able to escape to survive the encounter. I think they should take back the "defense fix" (nerf) or get rid of reel.
I think it's fine. The only time I've lost a character to reel is when I clearly bit off way more than I could chew.
Play sensibly and don't take needless risks, and hey presto, your character gets good enough to take on the dangerous stuff... preferably with a buddy along.
I've lost pcs since the changes to things that a pc of half the days used to be able to take out without getting hit before. These are lower midrange mobs. Nothing crazy high end. The combination of the two changes has increased the learning curve for combat pcs and that's something I don't think we needed or need with this game.
I think it was needed. But then again I never played before the nerf. I like where combat is right now. I think it's brutal, fast, and sometimes realistic.
I'm alright with the defense fix....I mean, alright, that makes the two warriors sparring for a RL hour very rare, but then, it should be.
I have always been against Reel, I am still against it. And I've never had a PC affected on the wrong end either, it normally plays to my benefit...and I still despise it.
As to the importance of armor...Well, It is important to the PCs it should be important to. Something that has not actually changed. If your PC is skilled enough and lucky enough to have high agi, they can easily go with no armor at all or just enough on the soft spots to prevent certain things.
And when going against certain critters, Armor does not matter at all.
Heh. The difference between taking two 80hp shots and two 90 hp shots is academic when you only have 100 hp.
I... I never really thought of it like that. If a Gaj can hit you even once, you should never have been fighting it in the first place.
Quote from: Synthesis on September 23, 2011, 11:52:18 AM
Heh. The difference between taking two 80hp shots and two 90 hp shots is academic when you only have 100 hp.
This is like Tanking 101!
Quote from: jstorrie on September 23, 2011, 03:32:05 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on September 23, 2011, 11:52:18 AM
Heh. The difference between taking two 80hp shots and two 90 hp shots is academic when you only have 100 hp.
This is like Tanking 101!
No, no. Tanking 101's lecture material covers how not to be the tank.
No, that's what you discuss with the vocations counsellor in Hall of Kings.
By the time you're in Tanking 101 the die has been cast, man. I mean, you're already ten thousand deep in student loan debt, and your chem marks are too low to get into Honours DPS.
Naw, man. Tanking 101 is in the management/human resources track. It's all about how to get -other- people to do the tanking for you.
If you're on the front lines, your SAT/ACT probably wasn't good enough for anything better than vocational/technical or community college. That's where they cover stuff like "when to flee," and "armor optimization."
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on September 23, 2011, 11:30:43 AM
I think it was needed. But then again I never played before the nerf. I like where combat is right now. I think it's brutal, fast, and sometimes realistic.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on September 23, 2011, 11:30:43 AM
I think it was needed. But then again I never played before the nerf. I like where combat is right now. I think it's brutal, fast, and sometimes realistic.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on September 23, 2011, 11:30:43 AM
I think it was needed. But then again I never played before the nerf. I like where combat is right now. I think it's brutal, fast, and sometimes realistic.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on September 23, 2011, 11:30:43 AM
I think it was needed. But then again I never played before the nerf. I like where combat is right now. I think it's brutal, fast, and sometimes realistic.
I mean. Not to be a dick. But just re-read that, and decide if thats an argument you would normally accept.
Riev, he heard it was a Nerf, we have to trust his expertise. 8)
... I'd go through all the trouble of boldening "I think" and "then again" and then my reasoning for you too, as you've obviously missed it. But that seems like way too much work for it's worth.
It wasn't an argument it was my opinion. ???
Cool forum-fu you got though.
Quote from: Karieith on September 23, 2011, 11:10:38 PM
Riev, he heard it was a Nerf, we have to trust his expertise. 8)
Nerf has negative connotation, not positive. Why would someone be okay with a nerf they knew nothing about? Normally the reaction to nerfs is negative.
This has been a fun thread.