I just want to give a hearty FUCK YOU to movement points in this game. If you want to ever be realistic about surviving you probably shouldn't ever drop beloiw half your movement points. So you're stuck with: Move five rooms, rest for 5 rl minutes... move 5 rooms, rest 5 rl minutes. Making some areas exhausting long trips.
MOUNT
There are places you cant take mounts.
Ah yes, the joy of mounts with current code...Hey look, you are at the max skill you can have and have even given up good armor for all the riding gear you can find.
You look around, sand, lots of sand, no rocks, no mountains, no trees, just sand.
s
You fall off your mount and take 1-12 damage.
wait for the fall lag which is at least as long as getting bashed by a mekillot
st
mount
s
your mount refuses to move
s
you ride south
s
you fall off your mount taking another 1-12 damage
Your mount continues south without you
your mount is unhitched
wait another lengthy delay
st
s
Oh hey, now not only did I take damage I used stam too.
hitch mount
mount
s
Meanwhile the guy that walked past you and has to rest every 5-10 rooms beats you to the gates
You finally get there and have to go rest for stam and HP.
Alright, these are less then random thoughts, but no other place to really rant.
And god forbid you are in a group.
group of 4 PCs, none of which are rangers but all more then 10 days played and maxed ride skill is still a comedy of falling off mounts and them refusing to move.
Errrr. Yeah. Just... Yeah.
I never had that problem of falling off my mount after my skill got up to the journeyman level. I had a non-half-elf assassin riding with two weapons out and he would only have issues in the worst of storms and roughest of terrain. Even then, he wouldn't fall off.
If you're having that much trouble with riding as a master, submit some logs to Morgenes or something. It sounds to me like you're doing something wrong, or something needs to be fixed.
If you're falling off your mount that much, and your ride skill is really as good as you say it is, you're in Ranger Country, son.
That being said, with a pair of riding gloves, my last warrior (sans subguild ride boosts) could ride around dual wielding, through sandstorms, with the mount running, without ever falling off (although occasionally it would swerve in some particularly difficult locations).
My guess is that your supposedly "guildmaxed" riders were only proficient enough not to fail in relatively easy terrain, and their skill deficits were laid bare in more difficult terrain, and I say this because as any recent non-elf ranger players know, you kind of have to go out of your way to force ride to branch, because you literally cannot fail in any of the commonly-ridden locations.
The facts that your skill is at (journeyman), and you haven't failed in a long time don't mean you're at your guild's max.
Who said anything about master?
Though, I've had PCs who had advanced and still, even with one hand empty could and did fall off on the salt flats.
Journeyman, Heh, falling off the moment you leave the road is a pretty common thing, And I'm not talking just my own PC, as you might have noticed in the post.
Falling off more then 1 time in 100 rooms no matter the terrain is silly once you have gotten to whatever your max skill is, I don't care if that is JM, advanced or master.
In groups the current code is so silly most people including myself have started ignoring it as an IC event.
At least till I have to rest for HP and stam.
And Yippee for you, I can only assume that ride is a AGI skill and hey, not all PCs have awesome agi...in fact, I would guess that most do not.
Myself and others should not have to spec our PCs at creation for a reasonable level of ride just so if you leave the road you have to go unarmed and no shield, set mount to sneak and have all the riding gear in the game so you don't have one of the 3 "bad" ride fails happen to you every 4 rooms.
And believe me, I know quite well how to max the skill, and knew how before you started playing the game./me rolls his eyes
And another thing, If, Falling off and refuses to move do not count as fails or at some point with this new code stop counting for fails then the skill/code is quite broken.
Quote from: X-D on July 20, 2011, 01:16:47 PM
Who said anything about master?
Though, I've had PCs who had advanced and still, even with one hand empty could and did fall off on the salt flats.
Journeyman, Heh, falling off the moment you leave the road is a pretty common thing, And I'm not talking just my own PC, as you might have noticed in the post.
Falling off more then 1 time in 100 rooms no matter the terrain is silly once you have gotten to whatever your max skill is, I don't care if that is JM, advanced or master.
In groups the current code is so silly most people including myself have started ignoring it as an IC event.
At least till I have to rest for HP and stam.
And Yippee for you, I can only assume that ride is a AGI skill and hey, not all PCs have awesome agi...in fact, I would guess that most do not.
Myself and others should not have to spec our PCs at creation for a reasonable level of ride just so if you leave the road you have to go unarmed and no shield, set mount to sneak and have all the riding gear in the game so you don't have one of the 3 "bad" ride fails happen to you every 4 rooms.
Sounds like somebody needs to stop using agility as a dump stat. My last two PCs started at journeyman (one ranger, one subguild mercenary), and between the two of them, I fell off while riding maybe 4-5 times combined. And this was mostly tooling around Allanak.
If your agility stat isn't good enough...stay on the damn road, or suck it up. Riding isn't a right.
On both recent topics:
Frankly, I don't think movement is cruel *enough*. Unless you can fly, crossing the salt flats should be *grueling*, and it should take over a day to get to Tuluk from Allanak, not fifteen RL minutes. The way larger indoor systems where you can't take a mount work are ideal. Getting rid of kanks would've been great... had they just not been replaced by beetles.
As to karma? If you want karma, honestly, the best advice I can give you is to play your character realistically and well, and write the account saying, "Hey, I'd like to eventually have karma for <x> and I haven't received any feedback lately, could I please ask for you guys to keep an eye on me in some of your free time and give me a karma boost if appropriate? Thanks!" It will work wonders.
Quote from: Synthesis on July 20, 2011, 01:22:25 PM
Sounds like somebody needs to stop using agility as a dump stat.
Agility tends to be prioritized for me, and I don't have too many problems riding unless i'm holding something, its stormy, and my ride is novice or apprentice.
i bet elves would have made fine riders.
Dude....never mind, I will just get banned again.
Do me a favor would you, Don't reply to my posts and I will not reply to yours.
Most of your...knowledge of the game is in wrong and or you refuse to see things because you have set your mind on one point and cannot see others. Agi as a dump stat...God, You do realize that the game has races other then human, elf and breed right? And max agi on those races is FAR lower then average agi on those.
And you don't think I pay attention to room descriptions? I know when a room says it is bad for riding and when it does not, Though I have asked Morg often on room flags and the numbers of rooms in this game flagged wrong for terrain and weather is HUGE.
But which is simpler, Fix 6,000 rooms and flags or tweek the skill?
But anyway, How about it, I will not reply to yours from here on out Synth and you do not reply to mine, Deal?
edited to save ass. thanks!
Quote from: X-D on July 20, 2011, 01:16:47 PM
Who said anything about master?
Quote from: X-D on July 20, 2011, 12:58:06 PM
Ah yes, the joy of mounts with current code...Hey look, you are at the max skill you can have and have even given up good armor for all the riding gear you can find.
...crap about falling off
One can only deduce.
@Cind: Discussing code mechanics on the GDB is forbidden. Find out ICly.
The half-giants I was rolling with didn't seem to have much of a problem, either.
I really question the veracity of your reported data, since it seems like every time you complain about this issue, very few others report having similar issues.
Dwarf agility isn't that much lower than human (unless you dump it...but you get what you wish for, there), and even if it is such an enormous problem for half-giants (it doesn't seem like it is), you could easily argue that well...maybe half-giants just aren't dexterous enough not to be forced to ride with both hands clutching on for dear life.
If you really can't handle it, quit rolling str/end/agi/wis dwarves and half-giants. Like I said, riding is a skill, which presumably means that failure is an intended outcome.
I said max you can have, IE, max for the guild/sub. Which for most is far from master.
I don't dump stats Synth, I do not order them, And dwarf agi is quite a bit lower then human, at least 25% in fact. Which to me at least is substantial.
In fact, the last few PCs I have had had at least VG agi for the race, so far from a dump stat anyway.
Now, as to the example given, Yes, that has happened many times, Is it something that happens a majority of the time...No.
In fact, I have been able to ride all over even in hard to ride places without any of the three crit fails.
But riding in groups amplifies the problem, If you ride 100 rooms and each person has 3 crit fails in that time it moves into the range of annoying. And beyond if you start hitting the harder rooms and or have larger groups, to the point of outright silliness.
As to your observation on HGs, how do you know they did not spec for ride?
As to it being a skill and you should fail, Yes, that is true, But there should be a point when you no longer do certain things. Falling off the mount is one of them. But as the code sits, you can, as a ranger, with high agi and master ride STILL fall off your mount. No, it will not happen often, but it can and will happen.
I rather recently was leading a group and turned off the road, and 3 of the 5 people had crit fails, none of them were new PCs, all had at least one hand free, the mounts were walking and the weather was good, and we road to a room labeled Sand. At least 2 of them have advanced ride.
And anyway, this entire deal was brought up because somebody wanted a small rant on stam costs and somebody else said mount.
All I was saying is mounts can be just as problematic and annoying as high stam costs.
And lastly, I know many of you do not ride IRL, but "holding on with both hands for dear life" Is more likely to get you tossed or lose control of your mount then riding properly with one hand and the other free for balance. AND having something in that other hand actually HELPS on the balance. Hopefully I do not have to explain why, but if so, just look at any performer that relies on balance, there is a science to the matter.
I don't agree with being able to fall off your mount at journeyman skill level at all when just riding around. Especially when, except for a couple guilds and a subguild, everyone else is capped there. It means, if you don't pick one of those guilds your pc will always suck at ride for their entire lives. It does need to be tweaked. At journeyman skill level, you should only have a chance of falling off if mounted in combat and you should never be capable of dual wielding while riding or being capable in mounted combat unless you're one of those specific guilds or subguilds. At max skill level in ride for -any- guild, you should at least be good enough not to fall off just riding around on any terrain.
Sooooo...the obvious solution would be not to take noobs into the Craggy Rock Forest Mountains of Ultimate Doom. Or spend more time practicing ride. It doesn't take a particularly long time to (really) guild-max it, unless you're a ranger...and then it's pretty much a non-issue.
And Bacon: that's basically how it is already. X-D is full of bull.
Quote from: Synthesis on July 20, 2011, 02:00:03 PM
Sooooo...the obvious solution would be not to take noobs into the Craggy Rock Forest Mountains of Ultimate Doom. Or spend more time practicing ride. It doesn't take a particularly long time to (really) guild-max it, unless you're a ranger...and then it's pretty much a non-issue.
And Bacon: that's basically how it is already. X-D is full of bull.
No, my experience is exactly what he's describing.
Thanks staff.
I love ride. I tend to choose easier to handle mounts as a newbie, though, because you could get hurt a lot getting thrown off by that evil creature you thought was a better mount three times in the same room.
(its in docs for the different mount animals---- some have been bred to be easier to ride and this is a known fact.)
i love sunlons, sunbacks and beetles for some reason. i think they really evoke the desert for me, and plains ox is cool too.
still awaiting: watching a dwarf deep in the obsession of his/her Focus mount a bahamet and tame it successfully.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on July 20, 2011, 02:05:21 PM
Thanks staff.
*shrug*
I haven't seen it. However, now I'm mildly tempted to roll a dorf warrior and dump agility just to see what happens.
I have a suspicion that all this really hinges on several things that aren't particularly obvious, so I'm not going to mention them.
At low Jman ride, with both hands on the reins, there are particular rooms where I -always- fall off. Not a "refuses to move", but a full on fall off, mount goes running away situation.
I would not count these rooms as "Ranger Country", and others with less riding skill and a weapon out seemed to be just fine.
My agility is likely higher than theirs, and they had no riding gear.
Rolls suck in this game sometimes, but I think at Jman, you shouldn't be falling off when just walking. Running, with a weapon in hand, charging down a mekillot? Yeah sure, your funeral. Gallavanting on North Road and getting attacked by a kryl, falling off your mount, surviving to get back on, fleeing, only to fall off and lose the mount again? Sometimes thats a bit hinky.
I played a dwarf warrior who didn't have agility as a dump stat, and I will tell you that learning to ride was painful. Very, very painful. On the road it was even painful. Having wisdom at 'poor' only made it more excruciating. Never again will I roll a dwarf warrior who doesn't start with at least subguild ride. Never never.
Quote from: valeria on July 20, 2011, 02:49:21 PM
I played a dwarf warrior who didn't have agility as a dump stat, and I will tell you that learning to ride was painful. Very, very painful. On the road it was even painful. Having wisdom at 'poor' only made it more excruciating. Never again will I roll a dwarf warrior who doesn't start with at least subguild ride. Never never.
We're not really talking about the grind...we're talking about the cap.
Quote from: Riev on July 20, 2011, 02:36:14 PM
At low Jman ride, with both hands on the reins, there are particular rooms where I -always- fall off. Not a "refuses to move", but a full on fall off, mount goes running away situation.
I would not count these rooms as "Ranger Country", and others with less riding skill and a weapon out seemed to be just fine.
My agility is likely higher than theirs, and they had no riding gear.
Apart from you not knowing what someone else's riding skill/guild/agility may or may not be,
no one has bugged this. (I mean that quite literally, there are no bugs from
anyone about "I always fall off in this room while riding," etc. Granted, I am looking for all bugs with the string "ride," "riding," "fall," "falling," or "mount," and it is possible I could've missed something, but I doubt it. I even tossed in "always.") We must has data before we can has answers. If you know specifically which room it is, you may send it in a request and I can look. (If you don't know specifically which room and it looks exactly like every other room, don't send in a request--please bug it instead.)
Ballpark answers:
1. The room you're talking about is coded wrongly and should be fixed.
2. The room you're talking about it described wrongly and should be fixed.
3. Your skill could be screwy. Incredibly unlikely, but if so, it should be fixed.
4. Nothing is wrong.
I think the room may just be coded wrongly, because its in a place leftover from a long time ago. Unfortunately, my current character doesn't have many opportunities to go this room, and I never thought to bug it. It was always "Oop that rough area is coming up, better sheathe the sword".
After being in QA for 4 years, the last things on my mind are "I should file a bug report."
Quote from: Riev on July 20, 2011, 05:33:32 PM
After being in QA for 4 years, the last things on my mind are "I should file a bug report."
Well, that's the thing. If you don't bug it, we can't fix it, because we don't know about it. Submitting bugs/typos/ideas is one of the ways that players can help better the game. The room has thousands and thousands of rooms, objects, and NPCs, and without specific information from you guys it's pretty much impossible for us to find small errors.
Quote from: Synthesis on July 20, 2011, 03:11:56 PM
Quote from: valeria on July 20, 2011, 02:49:21 PM
I played a dwarf warrior who didn't have agility as a dump stat, and I will tell you that learning to ride was painful. Very, very painful. On the road it was even painful. Having wisdom at 'poor' only made it more excruciating. Never again will I roll a dwarf warrior who doesn't start with at least subguild ride. Never never.
We're not really talking about the grind...we're talking about the cap.
I have an extremely long lived dwarven warrior with ride listed at joruneyman. I would be
shocked if his ride isn't maxed, as he's spent a
very long time atop a mount throughout his life. His agility is currently listed at 'good', but at one point it was 'very good'. I cannot, nor have I ever been able to, ride with something in both hands. I have experienced areas that, with nothing in either hand, walking the mount, wearing riding gloves and wearing riding boots, with an encumbrance listed as 'heavy, but manageable', I critically fail 2-3 times in the span of 20 or so rooms, to the point of falling off, or falling off and having my mount move on without me.
I, like X-D, have begun ignoring this in game. I'm not exactly sure how I could role play out my character, after having been in the saddle for 30+ IG years (of actual play time mind you, not virtual background time before the character was made), is still so apparently inept at staying atop a mount as to fall off one in every ten leagues or so in all but the easiest to navigate terrain. I find it completely ridiculous, as well as completely unnecessary and completely unrealistic to boot. I hate it.
You know "heavy, but manageable" encumbrance really borks most (if not all) agility-related skills, right? You might be pleasantly surprised by giving this a test run at "light."
His dwarf is gonna be so badass now.
Quote from: Synthesis on July 20, 2011, 06:48:48 PM
You know "heavy, but manageable" encumbrance really borks most (if not all) agility-related skills, right? You might be pleasantly surprised by giving this a test run at "light."
Yeah, I thought the other other point of a mount was to load them up to the breaking limit with large bags full of all my crap so that I don't have to at heavy encumbrance.
Just throwing my two cents in that I have never had any of the issues described by X-D, my rangers never had it (obviously) but neither did my human 'gickers.
QuoteYeah, I thought the other other point of a mount was to load them up to the breaking limit with large bags full of all my crap so that I don't have to at heavy encumbrance.
Not to mention giving elves a reason to steal them.
I would like to point out the seriousness of bug reports.
The infamous repair_armor skill which was broken for ever and ever to the point that taking some subguilds was considered pointless. All merchants were doomed to forever not make armor unless subguilded into armor making as well. Until a cunning fellow decided to provide logs and bug report it to the staff. Lo and behold a fix was given "Armor Repair skill fixed so it increases with use -- Morgenes." so even if somethings been broken so long it's become common knowledge that it's broken. Best to log and then bug report it.
Quote from: X-D on July 20, 2011, 07:35:06 PM
QuoteYeah, I thought the other other point of a mount was to load them up to the breaking limit with large bags full of all my crap so that I don't have to at heavy encumbrance.
Not to mention giving elves a reason to steal them.
For real! Think of the poor elves!
If anything, I hate the lag from falling off, it's a sigh
Otherwise, I never have any issues as long as I keep both hands empty - even at novice and while not on the road. So, shrug.
The raiders dream, mounted AND unarmed.
you know what i dream of at night? four-legged lizard mounts. the two-legged ones in the game are great, but i don't want to mutilate them.
this thread makes me want to see someone app the <insert sdesc here> dwarf. Focus: Create the Ultimate Mount.
A lot of horrendous, mad-scientist-esque breeding of various mounts that would be interpreted even by the Kah as crimes against both humanity and nature.
It would be fun to rp when others come across your monstrosities. and your successes. but mostly your monstrosities.
What? Inix walk on four legs.
Quote from: Yam on July 21, 2011, 04:23:37 PM
What? Inix walk on four legs.
i always pictured inixes in my mind as komodo dragons and the sunlons and sunbacks as lizards... thanks, though. restating: skinny lizards.
I am here, riding a skinny lizard barely larger than myself, and it can climb mountains! That's dream fuel for tonight.
Quote from: Cind on July 21, 2011, 04:27:23 PM
I always pictured inixes in my mind as komodo dragons and the sunlons and sunbacks as lizards chocobos
Quote from: http://www.armageddon.org/general/beasts.html#inixThese large lizards are capable of carrying even half-giants, albeit under duress.
???
i've never seen a ratlon for sale, actually. or anyone on a ratlon, though i haven't become part of an army or anything. although having certain mounts being rare in terms of their usefulness to the masses would be normal anyway; i don't exactly see a real need for mountain climbing among enough people to warrant greater numbers of ratlons.
i still want to see one.
I had a ratlon once.
It fell down a hole, along with a bunch of other sharp stuff.
I decided that it died in the fall and asked a staff member to slay it.
I still regret that sometimes.
My Kadian PC inherited a ratlon from one of her predecessors. Both the predecessor and my merchant rode our ratlon fairly regularly.
Ratlons are theoretically pretty sweet but generally speaking you aren't riding a mount for climbing ability. You're riding for using-somebody-else's-stamina-points ability.
And besides - if you guys just want to look ballin', you should be riding horses.
Quote from: lordcooper on July 21, 2011, 04:40:35 PM
Quote from: Cind on July 21, 2011, 04:27:23 PM
I always pictured inixes in my mind as komodo dragons and the sunlons and sunbacks as lizards chocobos
Chocobos are erdlus. Sunbacks are like friendly riding raptors. Sunlons are gross lizard mules.
Next reboot we have adjusted the terrain modifiers for riding. On reflection, looking at a non-guild/subguild rider at their 'max', we think they were too difficult, leading to more failures than should have been. So, riding should get easier next reboot, and thanks for bringing to our attention the specific case of a non-guild/subguild rider's max.
Quote from: Shepard on July 21, 2011, 04:04:48 PM
If anything, I hate the lag from falling off, it's a sigh
Otherwise, I never have any issues as long as I keep both hands empty - even at novice and while not on the road. So, shrug.
Agreed.
It's so annoying when you fall off your mount, then your superior yells at you to hurry up, and all you can do is wait for that 5 second whatever lag to be over.
I think the deduction of HP when falling off is enough. The lag is a little much, just as it is with rescue and falling over while drunk.
Wow. That's really responsive. Thank you.
Quote from: Rhyden on July 22, 2011, 02:19:18 PM
Quote from: Shepard on July 21, 2011, 04:04:48 PM
If anything, I hate the lag from falling off, it's a sigh
Otherwise, I never have any issues as long as I keep both hands empty - even at novice and while not on the road. So, shrug.
Agreed.
It's so annoying when you fall off your mount, then your superior yells at you to hurry up, and all you can do is wait for that 5 second whatever lag to be over.
I think the deduction of HP when falling off is enough. The lag is a little much, just as it is with rescue and falling over while drunk.
It's annoying as well as unrealistic.
Quote from: Bacon on July 22, 2011, 02:27:11 PM
Quote from: Rhyden on July 22, 2011, 02:19:18 PM
Quote from: Shepard on July 21, 2011, 04:04:48 PM
If anything, I hate the lag from falling off, it's a sigh
Otherwise, I never have any issues as long as I keep both hands empty - even at novice and while not on the road. So, shrug.
Agreed.
It's so annoying when you fall off your mount, then your superior yells at you to hurry up, and all you can do is wait for that 5 second whatever lag to be over.
I think the deduction of HP when falling off is enough. The lag is a little much, just as it is with rescue and falling over while drunk.
It's annoying as well as unrealistic.
Unrealistic? Have you ever fallen off any mount at any speed? You will get the wind knocked out of you. Jumping right up isn't an option.
and for the record, for those of you who claim it's as much as 'a bash by a mekillot', it isn't, I verified.
Yes, I have. You don't get the wind knocked out of you every time. You don't land on your ass, every time either. I've landed on my feet from being thrown off a horse before. I've been thrown off and jumped right up after the horse before too.
Hitting the ground on your ass, taking damage, and being stunned every single time you fall off is unrealistic. I think the degree of such a failure should have modifiers depending on your agility to determine the amount of damage, how long the delay is, and whether or not you fall onto your ass or get thrown and keep your feet.
I've fallen off a horse, too.
It hurts.
Deal With It. (tm)
Quote from: Bacon on July 22, 2011, 02:33:20 PM
Yes, I have. You don't get the wind knocked out of you every time. You don't land on your ass, every time either. I've landed on my feet from being thrown off a horse before. I've been thrown off and jumped right up after the horse before too.
Hitting the ground on your ass, taking damage, and being stunned every single time you fall off is unrealistic. I think the degree of such a failure should have modifiers depending on your agility to determine the amount of damage, how long the delay is, and whether or not you fall onto your ass or get thrown and keep your feet.
Hey Morgenes, with the poop code in, you could really do some cool stuff with critical ride failures and quadriplegia.
Quote from: Delirium on July 22, 2011, 02:43:31 PM
I've fallen off a horse, too.
It hurts.
Deal With It. (tm)
Well,
you might be stunned and cry every time you get a little bump or bruise and lay there whimpering.
Not everyone is that way.
Deal With It.
(tm)
Quote from: Bacon on July 22, 2011, 02:33:20 PM
Yes, I have. You don't get the wind knocked out of you every time. You don't land on your ass, every time either. I've landed on my feet from being thrown off a horse before. I've been thrown off and jumped right up after the horse before too.
Your position sounds unassailable.
Quote
Hitting the ground on your ass, taking damage, and being stunned every single time you fall off is unrealistic. I think the degree of such a failure should have modifiers depending on your agility to determine the amount of damage, how long the delay is, and whether or not you fall onto your ass or get thrown and keep your feet.
I can agree this is slightly unrealistic that it would happen every time and also agree that it's not worth coding everything in the game to your specifications of realism.
Quote from: Nyr on July 22, 2011, 02:54:09 PM
I can agree this is slightly unrealistic that it would happen every time and also agree that it's not worth coding everything in the game to your specifications of realism.
Nyr, I can accept that. That's fine. It doesn't bother me one bit for someone on staff to say so. In fact, I appreciate the considerate and direct answer in regards to the issue and the game.
What does irritate me is people who have no idea what they are talking about disregarding what I'm saying as bullshit when it is fact that I can prove with video evidence and my own personal life experience. (Not directed at you Nyr.)
Quote from: Bacon on July 22, 2011, 02:52:41 PM
Quote from: Delirium on July 22, 2011, 02:43:31 PM
I've fallen off a horse, too.
It hurts.
Deal With It. (tm)
Well, you might be stunned and cry every time you get a little bump or bruise and lay there whimpering.
Not everyone is that way.
Deal With It.(tm)
::)
Yes, naturally, I lay there whimpering and crying like a baby. There's no middle ground between 'landing on your feet like a ninja' and 'acting like a crybaby retard.'
Your position is unassailable.
Mine is that I don't think it's worth getting up in arms about.
If it isn't then why bother posting in the first place and being rather insulting about it with your "Deal With it." crap? Why not just say that in the first place? That is not at all the way your post came across. It came across as insulting. Noone was up in arms about the issue itself. What I was "up in arms" about was people acting insulting toward me about it. If your opinion was: "I agree it's not realistic but I don't think it's a big deal." Why not say that? What was the purpose of posting it in an antagonistic way if you didn't intend to antagonize anyone?
I was joking. It's a habit of mine. I apologize if it came across differently in text.
Then I apologize for misunderstanding.
Quote from: Bacon on July 22, 2011, 02:59:12 PM
Quote from: Nyr on July 22, 2011, 02:54:09 PM
I can agree this is slightly unrealistic that it would happen every time and also agree that it's not worth coding everything in the game to your specifications of realism.
Nyr, I can accept that. That's fine. It doesn't bother me one bit for someone on staff to say so. In fact, I appreciate the considerate and direct answer in regards to the issue and the game.
What does irritate me is people who have no idea what they are talking about disregarding what I'm saying as bullshit when it is fact that I can prove with video evidence and my own personal life experience. (Not directed at you Nyr.)
Anecdotes don't matter too terribly much. While it's admirable that you've managed to nimbly fall off of horses before without hurting yourself (or without falling on your ass, or while managing to land on your feet), it is not statistically relevant. You can fall off of a horse for lots of reasons, due to terrain, lack of skill, or a rather untrained beast. You can get thrown from a horse despite great skill and flat terrain.
You're being disregarded/easily targeted likely more because you're giving off an internet tough guy vibe. "I land on my feet when I fall off of horses." "I get right the hell back up when I fall off of horses." "I've got video evidence and life experience to back it up." In the end, you're arguing about your own personal experience on a forum for a text-based video game due to your belief that something in-game is slightly unrealistic because you, personally, have had some experiences that are not only irrelevant, but statistically irrelevant (in the real world as well as the gameworld). It is personally notable, but you'd be an outlier with regards to the majority of the population of the planet. If you had the skill you attribute to yourself in real life in Zalanthas, you would not be falling off of your mount anyway. If you want to use your real-life experiences to discuss something in-game, try to tone it down a bit, and don't make the connection between "I can do it" and "everyone should be able to do it, and if you can't, you're a big fat baby." Not all of us have the reflexes and mythical powers of a cat in freefall.
Morgenes, thank you very much.
- The Council of Allanaki Mages
It's not mythical to fall off a horse or bull and get right up and on your feet. That's primarly my point. Go search youtube for bareback bronc riding and bull riding videos. These are animals trying viciously to throw the rider and -most- of these people are jumping right to their feet. It's not as uncommon as you guys think it is. That's my point. It's more common to get right to your feet, you're taught to do so. So that you do not get trampled by the animal. My point is that you guys are wrong thinking it's rare, or it's some kind of ninja feat or something, it's not. It's more common among people who ride all the time, (which describes most pcs who ride on Zalanthas) than you all believe it to be.
I'm just trying to point out, whether or not there is any intention to change it, that some of your perceptions on how it really is, is wrong. (When I say your I mean those who think getting right up is the rarity, not singling anyone out.)
Edit: And I didn't thank Morgenes for looking into it and tweaking it. Thank you for that.
I agree with Bacon, as someone who has actually owned and ridden horses, that being stunned would be a rare thing. You may not want to get up but you can. Having played a 'byn sergeant I also will say that the time to get a rider to stay on a mount seems unrealistic. Tame mounts it's fairly easy to not get tossed even on some fairly steep terrain ESPECIALLY after a few weeks training. I am sure someone will mention these are scary beetles so whatever on that point, these are superhuman zalanthans too so that cancels out the horse->beetle differences imo. Ever time we recruited a non riding boost warrior, I was like oh fuck, not this shit again, maybe in a rl month or two of constant riding they won't fall so much as to make contracts impossible!
Also to rebut Nyr, it goes both way, you can't assume everyone is a weak kneed nerd who can't do physical activities just like you can't assume everyone is superman. What exactly are you basing your "evidence" on. Anecdotal evidence is better than no evidence.
Quote from: KankWhisperer on July 22, 2011, 03:52:17 PM
Having played a 'byn sergeant I also will say that the time to get a rider to stay on a mount seems unrealistic. ... Ever time we recruited a non riding boost warrior, I was like oh dear, not this nonsense again, maybe in a rl month or two of constant riding they won't fall so much as to make contracts impossible!
That may be more a Byn facilities problem than a ride problem. (I'm totally sympathetic; just saying...the Byn doesn't have an easy way to train riders.)
How about we try the new changes before we go further. I agree that getting stunned wouldnt happen 100% of the time, but I'm not changing it right now.
sigh
Quote from: Bacon on July 22, 2011, 03:37:04 PM
It's not mythical to fall off a horse or bull and get right up and on your feet. That's primarly my point.
It is mythical for cats to always land on their feet; I think you missed the joke reference and the point, which had nothing to do with getting back up, but landing on your feet and how not everyone can do that. (Not even every cat can do that, though most do, usually. I guess it's not very mythical for cats to always land on their feet since they usually do, but it IS mythical for people to always land on their feet, as evidenced by them not doing so.)
Quote
Go search youtube for bareback bronc riding and bull riding videos. These are animals trying viciously to throw the rider and -most- of these people are jumping right to their feet. It's not as uncommon as you guys think it is. That's my point. It's more common to get right to your feet, you're taught to do so. So that you do not get trampled by the animal. My point is that you guys are wrong thinking it's rare, or it's some kind of ninja feat or something, it's not. It's more common among people who ride all the time, (which describes most pcs who ride on Zalanthas) than you all believe it to be.
I am not surprised to find that people that make a living or a hobby out of getting on animals that want to throw them off learn to deal with it with training. I also am not surprised that somehow this is back to having lag after falling off of a mount because people who are expert riders in real life don't have lag when they fall off of their mounts. I already agreed with the whole "it is probably not objectively realistic," what more do you want? Would it help if I were to admit that I've spent most of my childhood and teen years riding horses, and that I'm quite familiar with some changes we could make to the riding system to make it more realistic--but would probably not do so because it's usually better to spend that effort elsewhere? I already mentioned the latter, but maybe the former is important to note, too.
Quote
I'm just trying to point out, whether or not there is any intention to change it, that some of your perceptions on how it really is, is wrong.
Well, here's my perception. Is it wrong? I don't know much about them thar four-legged contraptions. ;)
Bronc riding, bareback riding, anything else done in the midst of a rodeo ----> more than likely involves high skill in riding, one would assume
billions of people ----> probably do not do the above
billions of people ----> probably do not have high skill in riding (some likely have no skill in riding)
Quote from: brytta.leofa on July 22, 2011, 04:12:01 PM
Quote from: KankWhisperer on July 22, 2011, 03:52:17 PM
Having played a 'byn sergeant I also will say that the time to get a rider to stay on a mount seems unrealistic. ... Ever time we recruited a non riding boost warrior, I was like oh dear, not this nonsense again, maybe in a rl month or two of constant riding they won't fall so much as to make contracts impossible!
That may be more a Byn facilities problem than a ride problem. (I'm totally sympathetic; just saying...the Byn doesn't have an easy way to train riders.)
It's more of a "I'd rather be sparring than practicing ride" problem. Byn Sarges always have plenty of mount tickets, and the stable fee is the same cost as a few lumps of salt. Ride out to the Salt Flats at max speed, everybody gets a few fails and a ride bump, forage a bit to cover mount costs, head back in before people start to get dehydrated. Problem solved. You can get all that done in about ten minutes, if you make sure nobody is dicking around.
If no one likes, it and no one thinks it is realistic, and no one is having any fun with it..why are we doing it?
I love it when I'm running a noob down and they fall off their mount. Head over heels makes the boots much more accessible.
Quote from: Synthesis on July 22, 2011, 04:22:45 PM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on July 22, 2011, 04:12:01 PM
Quote from: KankWhisperer on July 22, 2011, 03:52:17 PM
Having played a 'byn sergeant I also will say that the time to get a rider to stay on a mount seems unrealistic. ... Ever time we recruited a non riding boost warrior, I was like oh dear, not this nonsense again, maybe in a rl month or two of constant riding they won't fall so much as to make contracts impossible!
That may be more a Byn facilities problem than a ride problem. (I'm totally sympathetic; just saying...the Byn doesn't have an easy way to train riders.)
It's more of a "I'd rather be sparring than practicing ride" problem. Byn Sarges always have plenty of mount tickets, and the stable fee is the same cost as a few lumps of salt. Ride out to the Salt Flats at max speed, everybody gets a few fails and a ride bump, forage a bit to cover mount costs, head back in before people start to get dehydrated. Problem solved. You can get all that done in about ten minutes, if you make sure nobody is dicking around.
Problem not solved. when I said constant riding, I meant every RL day I would take the men out on long trips and let them fall and use the teach command (with me having master ride) and it was still too long (for warriors) before I felt can we ..you know ...ride to Luir's?
The ability to delay gratification is a predictor of success later in life, you know.
Nyr,
I specifically said, those that do ride animals frequently. Not a majority of our modern, automobile driving society. Although, prior to the invention of the car, most people did ride animals. The rodeo thing was an extreme version of what we're talking about. I'm saying your average rider also, usually jumps right up when thrown more often than not. It's something you're taught early on, not an advanced thing. Even as a child I understood the concept: If he throws you get up and away fast so you don't get stepped on. Your average rider is taught this and more often than not can do so. Your average rider on Zalanthas, would probably also be familiar with the concept since it's a concept of survival in dealing with riding an animal. You only stay there on the ground, if you're so hurt you physically cannot get your ass up and out of the way, or you're too stupid not to get your ass up.
Anyway, I'm going to leave it at that and check out the tweaking as Morg said and deal with it being the way it is until/if it's changed to be better. If you still disagree, that's fine, we can just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Quote from: Synthesis on July 22, 2011, 04:28:42 PM
The ability to delay gratification is a predictor of success later in life, you know.
The ability to seize instant gratification
is success.
Also: tweaks have been made. I suggest KW and Synth check out the changes before having what may be a completely pointless debate.
Quote from: Synthesis on July 22, 2011, 04:28:42 PM
The ability to delay gratification is a predictor of success later in life, you know.
Also not being an idiot.
Quote from: KankWhisperer on July 22, 2011, 04:31:47 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on July 22, 2011, 04:28:42 PM
The ability to delay gratification is a predictor of success later in life, you know.
Also not being an idiot.
Now, now, little Billy. Throwing a tantrum isn't going to raise your minions' ride skill any faster. You have to eat your peas first, and then we can go to Luir's.
Quote from: Synthesis on July 22, 2011, 04:40:37 PM
Quote from: KankWhisperer on July 22, 2011, 04:31:47 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on July 22, 2011, 04:28:42 PM
The ability to delay gratification is a predictor of success later in life, you know.
Also not being an idiot.
Now, now, little Billy. Throwing a tantrum isn't going to raise your minions' ride skill any faster. You have to eat your peas first, and then we can go to Luir's.
Just trying to be helpful and add to your book-learned list of future predictors.
Bacon, I have to lol: are either of us actually talking about the same thing?
Also, to the trolling/flaming going on, please stop. I don't want to ban you from my phone.
Quote from: Nyr on July 22, 2011, 04:50:51 PM
Bacon, I have to lol: are either of us actually talking about the same thing?
I was beginning to wonder that myself. I don't know of any other way to try and be more clear about what I'm saying on the matter. Anyway, best if we just drop it. Things are getting heated up in here for people as it is.
I think we're agreeing but just emphasizing the opposing points.
I am reserving the right to post more on the subject AFTER extensive testing of new ride tweeks.
Thanks Morg...Now, when is the next reboot?
Now?
How about Now?
When I look at something, I like to consider it carefully from three different perspectives: Realism,Playability,Enjoyment.
A new warrior joins whatever crew you are on. He falls off a lot and everyone snickers and he is blushing.
Realism--sure, he sucks. Playability--no problem, he's new!. Enjoyment--Some funny and fun RP!
The guy has been playing a month and still about the same...
Realism--nope what the fuck is going on? Playability--Can't fucking take him anywhere but a road.. Enjoyment--He is frustrated he can't go or slows everything down and everyone else is frustrated by that too even though he trained hard.
So I hope the tweaks would make it such that the catastrophic failures occur at much lower levels of the ride skill only, and have a broader middle range where sure they get attacked they get bucked off but not by the act of riding.
In my opinion also it would be much harder to stay mounted from fighting than moving, which seems to be the opposite. You can use two hands (occupied) and fight well while riding, but try and simply travel..heelllll no. So I propose that if you cannot ride with two hands (occupied) you certainly should not be able to fight (effectively) with two hands :P. Bucked off?
yay I love seeing quick code fixes like this. makes me want to come back / play more.
Just to put all this back into perspective regarding "realism"
if this was realistic, we wouldn't be riding inixes, or erdlus, or war beetles, etc. etc. etc. In real life (which is where the notion of "realism" comes from) these creatures don't exist and anything closely resembling them are not tamed and ridden as mounts.
Ox, maybe. Horses, sure. Make it so that horses and oxen are easier to get up from if you have max ride or whatever. That'd be realistic. But the realism card doesn't work on fantasy animals that don't exist in real life.
I am going to have to not agree with you on this point Lizzie.
There are many other animals rode in the world that can be considered close enough.
Elephants, Ostrich, Ox, Camel and more.
Camels being specially ornery and hard to ride.
Quote from: X-D on July 22, 2011, 07:13:59 PM
I am going to have to not agree with you on this point Lizzie.
There are many other animals rode in the world that can be considered close enough.
Elephants, Ostrich, Ox, Camel and more.
Camels being specially ornery and hard to ride.
We can go that route too...let's consider the elephant.
Let's consider that you didn't hop onto it in the first place. You had it sit for you, and you had a step stool or a small ladder, and climbed up from there. Let's also consider that it is not likely that you did this by yourself; there was probably an elephant handler - handling it while you cliimbed. And then handled the stepladder/stepstool after you got to the top of the elephant's back.
The camel is the same situation, because camels are taller, standing, than the average -very- tall person can lift their leg. Remember, we're talking about a mount that tossed you off just a second ago; this indicates to me that he's not going to be much in the mood to sit down and let you back up without putting up some kind of struggle. Horses don't sit to let people up, but people can hop a horse while it's standing. Not so for an elephant or camel. I've never ridden an ostrich so I can't speak for that, but an erdlu is, theoretically, bigger than an ostrich.
The ox, I already conceded to and suggested that maybe the staff might consider making them less reluctant to keep riders atop, along with horses.
Cept that the code tells you that the mounts are at LEAST as well trained as the RL counterparts.
rest inix
You pull on a glossy, black-scaled inix's reins.
A glossy, black-scaled inix curls up on the ground./me winks at Lizzie
Also, only one instance says that it tossed you off, the other two are simply "You fall off". I suppose that means you fell asleep or something, or maybe it is the grey area staff left to RP around.
Hey, can we get a staff weigh in on that? Is it simply that your PC lost his grip/concentration or opened ended for RP purposes?
Except for height from the ground, what type of animal it is shouldn't have any bearing determining how one lands from the fall and how long it takes for them to get to their feet. The notion that it does, is really silly.
QuoteAlso, only one instance says that it tossed you off, the other two are simply "You fall off".
This also a good point, it is easier to recover and land from simply not being able to maintain a seat and falling off than it is to being violently thrown off.
Quote from: Bacon on July 22, 2011, 08:23:40 PM
Except for height from the ground, what type of animal it is shouldn't have any bearing determining how one lands from the fall and how long it takes for them to get to their feet. The notion that it does, is really silly.
I've fallen from a horse and had no trouble getting back up. I've also fallen from a horse and had to wait for the trail guide to help me back up; I had twisted my ankle. The horses were both more or less the same height, my fall was more or less the same distance to the ground.
How you fall, has a very direct bearing on how fast you can stand. What you fall ON also has a direct bearing. If you fall on loose sand, it's going to be harder to get up, than if you fall on packed soil covered in grass.
I mean really, if you want to get realistic, then go all the way. Otherwise, forget realism, change it to believability instead, and continue the discussion in a way that makes sense, in the context of a fantasy-based text game.
Sure, how you fall has bearing on how you land. The way the code works though, everyone falls and everyone lands the same. Everyone gets stunned and sits there like a lump for about the in game time equivalent of five minutes. This is the part some of us have a problem with. Real living beings have the ability to control how they fall and how they land from a fall to varying degrees.
From a realism standpoint, I have a problem with the code saying we're all clumsy lugs who all fall on our asses and hurt ourselves and all are stunned from it. My half-elf with abso incred agility will still hit the ground as hard as your poor agility dwarf and both still get equally stunned from it. From a playability standpoint, it's just plain freakin' annoying.
Quote from: Bacon on July 22, 2011, 08:41:51 PM
The way the code works though, everyone falls and everyone lands the same.
That's not realistic.
So again...if you want to play the realism card, then ask for realism. Realism, would give you a chance of falling under that mount's hoof JUST as it's about to take a step, and you getting your skull crushed. That doesn't happen in Arm. But if you want to play it realistic, it should be a possibility.
There should be coded injury so that when you fall, you have a d20 roll to determine if you get an injury, which injury you get, the severety of the injury, and the fatality risk of the injury. And then, you should also have a risk of infection, and so on and so forth...
Or, as I said, you can say fuck realism, because realism sucks, and isn't fair, and isn't fun, and isn't fantasy, and isn't Armageddon, nor is it a text game, and replace realism with believability.
I just really hate it when people make a habit of playing the realism card in regards to a fantasy game.
Okay, just replace every instance of realism or realistic with believability and believable, problem solved. It's not believable to me and it's fucking annoying the way it is. Happy? ::)
Play a fucking delf then.
Most of my characters now'a days are human. (since the red fangs are gone) so I don't know how easy it is for people to fall off but my characters all get to their maxed ride and stop falling off really. Most of my characters are warriors and some of them have no subguild that would have ride as a skill. And uh... yeah. I too have never had a problem with riding after that. So I'd say the ride skill is alright. I've really never experienced falling off of my mount after I got to a certain point. Of course I stick to the normal allanak to tuluk route. I'm not sure how bad the terrain is or whatever.
Just sayin'.
I like the ride skill.
also I just got done drinkin'.
Re: being thrown from your mount: I can assure you that mounts do indeed throw people a lot in combat. My clan sees me fly over the handlebars every time we go tregil-hugging.
If you stick with that route, there are maybe 6 rooms with a "hard" ride check, so the odds of crit fail are pretty low, you might only get one of the other messages. Try one of the alternate routes before a reboot causes the tweek to go live.
Course I am not too worried about this thread at the moment. Morg is usually pretty good at the tweeking.
Quote from: jstorrie on July 23, 2011, 04:38:59 AM
Re: being thrown from your mount: I can assure you that mounts do indeed throw people a lot in combat. My clan sees me fly over the handlebars every time we go tregil-hugging.
Tregil-
cuddling, you mean, right?
Christopher Reeves broke his neck falling off a horse.
Roads: not just an excuse to kill gith.
Quote from: Bacon on July 22, 2011, 08:55:28 PM
Okay, just replace every instance of realism or realistic with believability and believable, problem solved. It's not believable to me and it's fucking annoying the way it is. Happy? ::)
You mentioned some time ago that experienced riders, after having been thrown, will have the ability to get on their feet and immediately move out of the way of a panicked horse. Who is to say the delay does not represent this action?
Considering that when people do not immediately get up, they are injured... I find the current system quite generous.
Also, the current system may not look good to a new character, but it does represent things well at the far end, when really difficult terrain is the primary place you fail. Falling down in a rocky wasteland might just be stressful enough for you to require some time to reorient yourself.
just to throw two sids re: falling off a mount and the delay behind it...
i have family in the united states. in kentucky. they have a large horse farm. i've ridden since i was four years old. dressage, cross-country, show horses w/ saddlebreds, etc. i've fallen off / been thrown probably a dozen times. sometimes the girdle wasn't on right and you slide off and slip away. other times you get thrown and land on your feet. sometimes on your side/back. others, the horse trips and lands on you.
sure its different everytime in terms of how long it takes to get up and be @ 100% wits and coordination wise. but the delay works. i don't care how good of a ranger w/ ride you are. i've seen a national horseman of the year get thrown in a show ring in front of 8,000 people and he didn't get up very quickly.
now in terms how often you fall.. no idea. but the delay? meh. go ride a horse and get thrown and tell me how long it takes you to get up.
The promised code changes are in. If you are maxed non-guild/subguild rider that is still having issues of constant falling off your mount, please send me logs of what you are doing, or arrange a time with me to watch what is happening.
Quote from: Morgenes on July 24, 2011, 02:52:12 PM
The promised code changes are in. If you are maxed non-guild/subguild rider that is still having issues of constant falling off your mount, please send me logs of what you are doing, or arrange a time with me to watch what is happening.
Roger, Wilco. And thanks!
I seem to be good so far.