I don't think I've ever ONCE played a character who hated magick. Nearly all of them fear it, but I've never had one hate it. I don't hate a butcher knife coming at my face. I fear it will kill me. Thank you, that is all.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on June 08, 2010, 11:46:43 PM
I don't think I've ever ONCE played a character who hated magick. Nearly all of them fear it, but I've never had one hate it. I don't hate a butcher knife coming at my face. I fear it will kill me. Thank you, that is all.
Never attempted the tried-and-true self-loathing magicker, eh? Had myself some good times with that, even if I felt like I was unreasonably against the grain sometimes. But that's hate for you: rationality doesn't need to be a part of it.
Magick gains serious depth when it goes beyond utility. That said, I've certainly played magickers who have mostly looked at it as just another tool to use. Anything goes, really, but I heartily suggest giving magick hate a fair shake sometime.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on June 08, 2010, 11:46:43 PM
I don't think I've ever ONCE played a character who hated magick. Nearly all of them fear it, but I've never had one hate it. I don't hate a butcher knife coming at my face. I fear it will kill me. Thank you, that is all.
Magick is not a butcher knife. Magick is an abomination that must be eradicated whenever possible.
Obviously your Tulukis aren't well-indoctrinated enough. Step into this back room with me, I promise you'll see your family in the Warrens again.
Quote from: Zoltan on June 09, 2010, 08:41:05 AM
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on June 08, 2010, 11:46:43 PM
I don't think I've ever ONCE played a character who hated magick. Nearly all of them fear it, but I've never had one hate it. I don't hate a butcher knife coming at my face. I fear it will kill me. Thank you, that is all.
Never attempted the tried-and-true self-loathing magicker, eh? Had myself some good times with that, even if I felt like I was unreasonably against the grain sometimes. But that's hate for you: rationality doesn't need to be a part of it.
Magick gains serious depth when it goes beyond utility. That said, I've certainly played magickers who have mostly looked at it as just another tool to use. Anything goes, really, but I heartily suggest giving magick hate a fair shake sometime.
I see too many other, more viable ways for magicker/mundane interaction to have conflict. Jealosy, nervousness, fear, prejudice, superstition, anxiety. Hatred's overdone. Sure hatred doesn't need to be rational...Maybe that's why all the aggro beasties are willing to sacrifice themselves rather than give up hunting you. I seriously don't see hatred though. I mean... hate the guy that can make water when you're dying of thirst? Or be jealous of him for never needing to be thirsty? Or be nervous that he might fill your lungs with water and kill you? Or assume that his water'll make you thirstier quicker than the Highlord's water? Or become anxious that they might wish you a good day and you'll wind up with so many kids you can't feed them all? (superstition docs, on the last one).
.... But just 'Oh... I hate magickers with no underlying reason'... no. Never have. Never will. People don't hate things without an underlying reason. Whether it be because they were raised to hate it, they had bad experience with it, they always wanted it but couldn't have it, they don't understand it, or what. I think focusing more on how they actually feel and why they feel that way's more interesting. Not to mention, I just generally don't enjoy playing hateful characters. Mean, sadistic, spiteful, manipulative, vengeful, sociopathic... yes. But not just downright hateful. Once again, it just doesn't interest me.
Quote from: Nyr on June 09, 2010, 09:19:29 AM
Obviously your Tulukis aren't well-indoctrinated enough. Step into this back room with me, I promise you'll see your family in the Warrens again.
They are. :-X They're just more SCARED of the shit that has fucked so many things up than they are hating of it. I would think that 9 out of 10 commoners would be way too terrified to go toe to toe with a magicker for ignorance of what they could do, or perhaps knowledge of some of what they could do.
Of course... there's always the supposition that I'm not playing enough maxxxed-out dwarven warrior legionnaires with a focus of destroying all magick. :-*
Jealousy towards magick? While possible in a few roles here and there, this is what I would consider to be way outside of the norm.
Hatred can be a cause for every behavior your mentioned.
There are a slew of superstitions about magick--not a single one of them is considered a "positive" superstition. Yes, hate the guy that can make water when you're dying of thirst, because it is tainted and they may very well kill you. No, don't be jealous of his power. He is an abomination. You are a regular Joe Six-Mug, and you don't need no feckin' magick to stay alive, no sir--if you can't survive without using the services of a magicker, you deserve to die, must've just been your time to bite the dust. Be nervous that he could fill your lungs with water, yeah--you can do that and hate magick at the same time. Assume his water will make you thirstier quicker? Yeah, you can assume that--and if worst comes to worst, maybe you'll drink it, but try to find some way to compensate for your weakness later on, evolving the hatred into self-hatred and loathing of your own weakness. Believe that you might bear children quickly and easily because they wish you a good day? Yeah, you can do that...and hate them all on top of it.
There's always some kind of "underlying reason" for hatred. Hatred also has varying degrees, it is not just black or white. Hatred can have a cause that also begets more hatred, turning it into an unending cycle.
Everyone in the world (barring some tribes and the oddballs out there) should have been raised to fear magick and consider it dangerous and something you do not want to go toe to toe with.
The majority of northerners probably have fear bordering on hatred because they are more associated with Tuluk and know the stories. Tuluk didn't always abhor magick and execute magickers--they turned to that choice after 1450. Now they are probably the most anti-magick group of people in the Known World, with subsets of them being even more anti-magick than that. They have a good reason--an objectively good reason, in my opinion--for hating magick. Some of them do have to go toe to toe with magick on a mundane level, and they do it--that doesn't mean they aren't afraid or that they don't hate magick all the while, it just means they have orders, faith in their success or their cause, or maybe they're doing their best not to think about the worst.
In Allanak, magick is feared, but in a different way--because there never has been a ban on magick. Magickers may get executed, but they're "leashed," for lack of a better term. I could see an uneasy relationship in Allanak between magicker and non-magicker, but even there, jealousy seems like an odd juxtaposition. Hatred would take different forms there--overt and subtle prejudice, visible anxiety, fear. You fear the things you hate, you hate the things you fear, etc. Some few Allanaki folk would be in positions to utilize magickers as tools. They may regard them as property and tools. They may regard them as disposable tools. They might treat their tools pretty well. Without getting into nitty-gritty IC details, you can probably assume that the powers-that-be in Allanak have specific views on magick. Maybe your PC hates the templarate or House Oash for using magickers in this way--but this doesn't necessarily mean that your PC didn't have the "nobles and templars are better that commoners" mantra pounded into their head right before the "magickers and magick is bad and meant to be feared" ideal.
Not every PC is the same. I'm not saying every PC has to be the same in their attitude towards magick, magickers, etc. Feel free to play magicker-loving people or characters that are jealous of magicker power, but note that this is not the norm for Zalanthas. If any player has a habit of playing outside the norm on a regular basis, it likely will affect their chances in sponsored/tribal areas/higher karma because one can't really play too far outside of the restrictions of documentation there.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on June 09, 2010, 09:26:13 AM
Quote from: Zoltan on June 09, 2010, 08:41:05 AM
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on June 08, 2010, 11:46:43 PM
I don't think I've ever ONCE played a character who hated magick. Nearly all of them fear it, but I've never had one hate it. I don't hate a butcher knife coming at my face. I fear it will kill me. Thank you, that is all.
Never attempted the tried-and-true self-loathing magicker, eh? Had myself some good times with that, even if I felt like I was unreasonably against the grain sometimes. But that's hate for you: rationality doesn't need to be a part of it.
Magick gains serious depth when it goes beyond utility. That said, I've certainly played magickers who have mostly looked at it as just another tool to use. Anything goes, really, but I heartily suggest giving magick hate a fair shake sometime.
I see too many other, more viable ways for magicker/mundane interaction to have conflict. Jealosy, nervousness, fear, prejudice, superstition, anxiety. Hatred's overdone. Sure hatred doesn't need to be rational...Maybe that's why all the aggro beasties are willing to sacrifice themselves rather than give up hunting you. I seriously don't see hatred though. I mean... hate the guy that can make water when you're dying of thirst? Or be jealous of him for never needing to be thirsty? Or be nervous that he might fill your lungs with water and kill you? Or assume that his water'll make you thirstier quicker than the Highlord's water? Or become anxious that they might wish you a good day and you'll wind up with so many kids you can't feed them all? (superstition docs, on the last one).
.... But just 'Oh... I hate magickers with no underlying reason'... no. Never have. Never will. People don't hate things without an underlying reason. Whether it be because they were raised to hate it, they had bad experience with it, they always wanted it but couldn't have it, they don't understand it, or what. I think focusing more on how they actually feel and why they feel that way's more interesting. Not to mention, I just generally don't enjoy playing hateful characters. Mean, sadistic, spiteful, manipulative, vengeful, sociopathic... yes. But not just downright hateful. Once again, it just doesn't interest me.
Many of the things you mentioned are all seeds for hate. Especially jealousy and superstition. Hate is -not- one-dimensional. Story time!
When I played my first mage, a Whiran, I was all self-conscious of not playing up to the docs as I had just received a chunk of karma. To kick things off "right," I made him middle-aged and wrote/thought up -extensive- background information for him that detailed how magick ruined his life. In reality, he probably owed more to his personal weaknesses for his fate, but the magick he had suppressed within himself for over two decades was always his scapegoat. He was forced to leave his relatively happy family in Menos due to manifesting in front of his brother. He soon fell to alcoholism and spice addiction, eventually leading him to a life of desperate prostitution. And all this time the presence of Whira, the vague words of power that drifted through his head during his waking nightmare, taunted him. He had a seething hatred for magick and, by extension, himself.
Years passed, and he managed to survive, spending more time in the desert hunting. He had mostly cleaned up, just as an act of basic survival. One day he had a bad accident and lost some fingers and his shitty hunting gear to it. Growing older and finally pushed against a wall, he faced what he was and marched into 'Nak and requested a gem (which is when I started playing him). His fear and hatred were still in full effect, even as he experimented with the words that had haunted him. Things were made all the better when he nearly died due to his experiments. :)
Anyway, that gemmer's multifaceted hatred of magick and his many interactions with various manifestations of Whira combined to form one of the most satisfying play experiences I've had with any game. The true meat of just how awesome some of these moments and changes were will have to wait till after the game is closed unfortunately, if they can be told at all, due to some serious IC sekrits. Needless to say, playing with hate in its various forms made the RL year I had that character a ton of fun. He went from total fear/hatred/distrust to making begrudging utility of his magick, to a perceived Oedipus-tinged sexual relationship with Whira, to finally a fatalistic total acceptance of his true nature, powers, and role in the wider world. He was one bitter motherfucker and finally succumbed to a terminal illness after having his life prolonged for a while by, you guessed it, magick. Hate is an incredible springboard for drama, sometimes.
RAT: I need to be more cautious and have myself another long-liver. It's like a whole different game once you last a long time, even if you aren't "important."
I enjoy playing the 'norm' on attitude towards magick with most PCs. I also enjoy getting sponsored roles. :P
Even my magickers sometimes hate other mages. Especially the ones that sleep with or otherwise strongly associate with normal people. Or they have delusions that they aren't 'really' cursed by the element (see my signature). Or they try to get rid of it.
Quote from: Nyr on June 09, 2010, 10:02:42 AM
Jealousy towards magick? While possible in a few roles here and there, this is what I would consider to be way outside of the norm.
Hatred can be a cause for every behavior your mentioned.
Definitely outside the normal behavior. That's a given, I was simply listing it as a possible avenue of interesting conflict with magicker pcs.
As to the hatred, I see it more as an EFFECT of those things than the cause of them.
I've always more gotten
this from the documentation for it:
General Magick (http://www.armageddon.org/general/magick.html)
QuoteIf you are a new player looking for information on roleplaying magick or reactions to magick, know that it is feared and loathed throughout the Known World, and few would admit to its terrible, shameful use
Magick from 'Help files, no frames' (http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?Magick)
QuoteMagick is a mysterious and very rare power on Zalanthas, about which the general public knows very little, and generally fears and hates a great deal. While magickers are tolerated in some places, they are generally feared and distrusted by the vast majority of the population of Zalanthas. In many places, magickers are killed upon discovery, and even the rumor that one is a magicker can lead to one's death.
I've always thought that, based on its uniform reference over hatred in the documentation that fear was every bit as much a logical and IC response as outright hating. I'm not likely to have a pc just outright hate it. They may well wind up hating it for specific reasons, or they may not, depending on how much they wind up doing with them, or they may just still fear them, mostly just depending on what happens and where. Fear? Yes. Distrust? Yes. I still don't see the hatred part, other than very specific and very ic examples that I've had with different pcs, but it's usually the result of a traumatic event or something similar, rather than just blind, random hatred.
I think you guys are basically saying the same thing, just getting caught up in semantics of the word 'hatred'.
I had a one liner about semantics but yeah, a strange shadow has hit the nail on the head.
Fear and hate are two steps on the path to the dark side, separated by anger and followed by suffering for those magicker bastards.
RAT: The Emperor would have a lot less work to do in Zalanthas, a place where the dark side's tendencies run rampant.
Quote from: Nyr on June 09, 2010, 01:50:33 PM
I had a one liner about semantics but yeah, a strange shadow has hit the nail on the head.
Fear and hate are two steps on the path to the dark side, separated by anger and followed by suffering for those magicker bastards.
RAT: The Emperor would have a lot less work to do in Zalanthas, a place where the dark side's tendencies run rampant.
Fair enough. My reply was actually a lot lengthier until I realized that it seemed like I was recanting my original point, which really I wasn't, I think I just view most hatred as pointless and tend to involve hateful feeling or intent through other venues.
Also: Yes. I can imagine he'd be rather bored if he didn't have some other goals as well. :)
I don't like roleplaying hatred toward magickers because I really don't want to give something that powerful a reason to want to kill me. It's already ridiculously easy to die without going to aquariums and picking fights with cheese-eating sharks with AK-47 mousetraps...or something.
I think this concern is valid both IC and OOC.
Quote from: Synthesis on June 09, 2010, 03:34:55 PM
I don't like roleplaying hatred toward magickers because I really don't want to give something that powerful a reason to want to kill me. It's already ridiculously easy to die without going to aquariums and picking fights with cheese-eating sharks with AK-47 mousetraps...or something.
I think this concern is valid both IC and OOC.
You can be hateful without letting them know about it. A character who both hates and fears magic would probably remain passive, not wanting to provoke the wrath of the filthy finger-wiggler, but still grit his teeth and mutter under his breath. And most importantly, not associate with / openly befriend the magickers, let alone sleep with them. Sometimes I really wonder why so many characters seem to have IC reasons for this.
One thing I take issue with is the implied uniform hatred of all magickers.
If all magickers are abominations and need to be eradicated, then what is the point of sorcery? Are defilers just another ho-hum magician that happens to make ash? Since the maximum hate level is given to the average rukkian, you can't go that much further with the sorcerer.
It is common knowledge after all that the state of the world is the result of sorcerous defiling and less so because of rogue elementalists.
I think there needs to be a division in game-world response between one set of mages and another.
Would you guys like it if I split this into its own topic for more discussion without derailing our wonderful random arm thoughts thread?
Quote from: Nyr on June 09, 2010, 04:17:12 PM
Would you guys like it if I split this into its own topic for more discussion without derailing our wonderful random arm thoughts thread?
Yes please.
Making this thread as a placeholder for previous discussion (will be placed above shortly). Discuss things like:
Regional perceptions of magick (careful here not to get too IC)
how to show your magicker hate...pride...
how to show your magicker tolerance -- for those out there that use magickers or have to interact with them on a regular basis. Zalanthan tolerance isn't necessarily Real-World(tm) tolerance.
I've posted my thoughts in another thread, but I'll lay'em out here. I, the player, LOVE magicks in Armageddon. I like playing mages, I like interacting with them, I like being threatened by them, I like being pals with them. As long as I'm not shunning them and avoiding them, I'm good. I won't play someone who is *terrified* of mages, because that would require that I do everything possible to avoid interacting with them, including running away instead of risking some fun RP by sticking around. I won't play a total hater, because that would involve either going out of my way to avoid them, or making an effort to kill them, thus ending any RP.
So I prefer to make it a case-by-case situation. I might play someone who would possibly tolerate a vivaduan if she ever got stuck dealing with one. Or I might play someone who's afraid of the dark, and therefore would tolerate krathis while absolutely loathing drovians. Maybe I'm playing an elkran, who freaks out when she gets too close to vivaduans. Or maybe I'm playing a hunter who wants to -hire- a rukkian as a riding companion, because she heard they're good protection against the dunes.
Maybe I'll play someone who normally can't stand magickers but makes an exception to one who has shown themselves to be useful, cordial, undemanding, reasonable, intelligent, helpful, and more or less nice. Or maybe I'll play someone who is ripe for corruption and would be afraid of them - UNTIL they meet this one who turns them into a degenerate love slave to a evul defiler.
My Tuluki characters might have a morbid fascination with the elements in general - but have a respectful fear of people who can wield them. My Allanak characters would generally have been brought up and raised in the presence of gemmers and would have at -least- a begrudging tolerance for them - while at the same time having a very severe loathing and distrust against rogue mages. My tribals would probably get along swell with some, and not stand others. My desert elves would likely not want to be near any that aren't among their own tribe, but respect those within the tribe.
So really, it depends. But out and out hatred, or out and out intolerance, with no exceptions, won't be in my RP. I just love magicks too much.
I've been wondering about the OOC-IC impact of magicker-hate on the game, lately.
It seems like we're actively driving magickers and mundanes apart with all the hate and fear. Based solely on my experiences of the last few months, I'd estimate that 75-85% of all magickers in the game avoid the mundane populations to the point of exclusivity. Gemmers spend most of their time in the Quarter, and "rogue" magickers spend most of their time in places I can't talk about on the GDB. It seems pretty natural that players are going to want their characters to go someplace they're wanted and welcomed, rather than ostracized, but I can only think of three clans that are open to magickers, and the only city that allows magickers is still pretty hostile to them.
To some degree this is fine - I wouldn't want to see a dozen gemmed PCs hanging in the Gaj - but I really get the impression that all the hate/fear has done is create two different societies within the game. You have mundanes doing mundane things, getting involved in mundane plots and drama while magickers are doing magicker things and getting involved in magicker plots and drama, and the two don't seem to cross paths all that often.
Is there a way to fear/hate on magickers without driving them away?
Quote from: Jingo on June 09, 2010, 04:08:06 PM
One thing I take issue with is the implied uniform hatred of all magickers.
If all magickers are abominations and need to be eradicated, then what is the point of sorcery? Are defilers just another ho-hum magician that happens to make ash? Since the maximum hate level is given to the average rukkian, you can't go that much further with the sorcerer.
It is common knowledge after all that the state of the world is the result of sorcerous defiling and less so because of rogue elementalists.
I think there needs to be a division in game-world response between one set of mages and another.
There pretty much -is- a division.
Elementalists: Oh those bastards, I would kill them all if I had the chance to.
Ash-covered sorcerer: HOLYFUCKINGSHITKILLITKILLITKILLITKILLITKILLITKILLITKILLIT!!!! *runs away and never returns to that area ever again, chanting prayers to Tek, Muk, The Sandlord, and any other god-like being in hopes you weren't cursed by merely looking at it*
Quote from: Old Kank on June 09, 2010, 09:35:22 PM
Is there a way to fear/hate on magickers without driving them away?
Experience would suggest not. It seems like when the pendulum swings the other way, the next thing you know Ruti's in the pit with no tongue and the magickers are hanging out at the bar in silks.
Sorry, it's past my bedtime, and I'm opting for the short answer. No tone should be inferred in the above. Hopefully tomorrow I'll come back and elaborate if it's needed.
What OK said. I'd rather see conflict that encourages interaction rather than segregating the player base.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on June 09, 2010, 10:20:39 PM
Quote from: Jingo on June 09, 2010, 04:08:06 PM
One thing I take issue with is the implied uniform hatred of all magickers.
If all magickers are abominations and need to be eradicated, then what is the point of sorcery? Are defilers just another ho-hum magician that happens to make ash? Since the maximum hate level is given to the average rukkian, you can't go that much further with the sorcerer.
It is common knowledge after all that the state of the world is the result of sorcerous defiling and less so because of rogue elementalists.
I think there needs to be a division in game-world response between one set of mages and another.
There pretty much -is- a division.
Elementalists: Oh those bastards, I would kill them all if I had the chance to.
Ash-covered sorcerer: HOLYFUCKINGSHITKILLITKILLITKILLITKILLITKILLITKILLITKILLIT!!!! *runs away and never returns to that area ever again, chanting prayers to Tek, Muk, The Sandlord, and any other god-like being in hopes you weren't cursed by merely looking at it*
Neither option is exclusive to one type of magicker. And both come down to the same tired denominator anyways.
I'd say that in the case of a PC that really did have the opinion that all magickers are abominations and need to be eradicated, you would just prioritize your eradication list rather than hate one more than another.
You have a valid point. If your PC really does hate all magickers equally, then the answer isn't to decide how much to hate each one, but in what order they need to be killed.
Remember that a desire to murder isn't the necessary outcome of hatred. Big Jake, the 260-pound head of the local Klan chapter, may not find it a big stretch to try to kill a black person. His wife, Peggy Lou (the frail, honey-blond woman), may hate black people just as much as he does, but she's far less likely to take matters into her own hands.
And neither of them is likely to take on, say, an experienced soldier, regardless of his skin color, unless they've got all their Klan buddies with them.
Ruti, AFAIK, wasn't a badly-played character. (This was a 'nakki soldier who was executed after killing a gemmed mage, for you heathens who weren't there.) He really, really hated 'gickers, which is a very reasonable interpretation of a southern commoner. The "mistake," if there was one, was in not more carefully screening soldiers for extreme 'gicker issues.
(The player's mistake, I daresay, was in not grokking the tension between "I hate 'gickers" and "I will be killed more horribly than I can imagine if I make trouble.")
brytta has a really good point about discrimination. The whole way discrimination in practice works is that you outnumber and/or overpower the person you hate. Testimony from every elf-hater who got backstabbed, breed-hater who got trampled and sorcerer hater who got disintegrated. You want to put your PCs prejudice into action, you better hire some thugs!
Assuming a city character, this is how I interpret the documentation and my experience in the game-world, and thus how I deal with magick.
In Allanak, there's a balance between total hatred and total acceptance. That balance is a fear and some hatred for what is possible (the unknown), and solemn respect for the fact that the templarate allows them to live in the city. That balance allows for interaction between the gemmed and the other groups of people. It isn't going to be pleasant interaction - in the average case, it's going to be uncomfortable for gemmed PCs involved, but probably even more for PCs. When 99% of the mundane Allanaki population fears at least some of Allanaki gemmed, you can't really get away with being the 1% that loves all of them without some shunning or at least an odd look your way. Basically, in Allanak, sanctioned elementalism is accepted. Rogue elementalists and sorcerers of any kind are not. I don't think your average Allanaki citizen would have enough hatred in their minds to consider killing what they probably see as a tool of the templarate.
Barzalene mentioned Ruti earlier. I played in the AoD during Ruti's demise, which I understood basically the same way brytta does. It basically involved an Allanaki soldier's growing hatred for how the PCs in the AoD and other people were interacting with magickers. It was an interesting line to watch a PC go down, but I'm not sure that's the average, either. The gemmed should be seen as having a use to someone. The more they show they are useful to you, naturally the more trusting you will be of them. My PC participated in the gith war and various other battles, occasionally receiving assistance from magicks, and was generally appreciative of survival. I think the average Allanaki will feel it's okay to enjoy, for example, healing magick, when they are nearly dead and need to be healed. But he naturally won't come to the conclusion that all magick is good just because he was healed.
Tuluk is obviously a different beast. The average Tuluki citizen is going to fear magick for its power, but probably also hate it because of what happened throughout Tuluk's history, specifically the Cataclysm. Though it may be fine in Allanak, I think to say that you don't hate a butcher knife, but rather fear its ability to kill you, is the wrong way to go about thinking of this concept when you think of Tulukis. The way I see it, Tulukis hate the nuclear missile as well as the people with the ability to launch them, and while the more capable people will try to learn more about them or even disarm these nuke-wielders, the rest live fearing the possibilities, but knowing they are protected now. You can go against the grain, but I don't think you should be surprised if your PC "disappears" after knowingly aiding and abetting, or receiving aid from, a magicker of any kind.
I strongly disagree that hatred leads directly to killing. There are more avenues for such other options and it's important to explore them. It is also important to come to the conclusion that the hatred stems primarily from fear of power (although you may find some other way to justify that hatred).
At the risk of appearing dogmatic and abrasive I wanted to give you my thought proccess.
If we interact freely with magickers:
The roles bcomes less challenging
If the role is less challenging
If the role is less challenging and at a lower standard
If there are more magickers played at a lower standard magickers will be less interesting
If the game is flooded with unintereting magick the game will be broken.
In my opinion are players forced to choose between power and easy interaction? Yes , but I don't see the problem with that.
Considering the HUGE efforts at suppressing information in Tuluk and the lack of literacy, I'd have to offer a suggestion of possibility regarding commoners' perception of magicks in the north.
I don't think that what the docs state so emphatically, makes all that much sense in regards to actual enforcement. Tulukis, by far and large, are given spin to make them believe their lives are wonderful, that their city is safe, that the Sun King loves them and watches over them and would never allow any harm to them. Therefore - if magicks do cause cataclysms, commoners would have to come to one of two possible conclusions: Muk Utep lied, or it wasn't magicks. Neither possible conclusion is acceptable for a Tuluki.
Quote from: Lizzie on June 10, 2010, 05:29:50 PMI don't think that what the docs state so emphatically, makes all that much sense in regards to actual enforcement. Tulukis, by far and large, are given spin to make them believe their lives are wonderful, that their city is safe, that the Sun King loves them and watches over them and would never allow any harm to them. Therefore - if magicks do cause cataclysms, commoners would have to come to one of two possible conclusions: Muk Utep lied, or it wasn't magicks. Neither possible conclusion is acceptable for a Tuluki.
Remember though, that the public mind is rarely so adherent to strict principles of logic (and I'm not exactly sure the logic itself is sound). Think of a parallel in the modern conception of terrorism in the American mind (speaking in party-neutral terms to avoid a derail). Absence of terrorist attacks or a thwarted terrorist attack means that our leaders are keeping us safe. A successful terrorist attack means we need to rally around our leaders so they can keep us safe! And this is in a literate, information saturated culture. The concept of terrorism, like magick, creates an enemy, an Other figure, and whether the enemy succeeds or fails in the short term, it is always favorable for government leaders in terms of public opinion.
In more practical terms, those (probably fairly uncommon) folks that are shrewd to the propaganda will understand that magick -does- pose a danger to Tuluk, and the Sun King's protective powers are not absolute. However, they would probably avoid publicly professing this opinion in those terms.
Quote from: Old Kank on June 09, 2010, 09:35:22 PM
I've been wondering about the OOC-IC impact of magicker-hate on the game, lately.
It seems like we're actively driving magickers and mundanes apart with all the hate and fear. Based solely on my experiences of the last few months, I'd estimate that 75-85% of all magickers in the game avoid the mundane populations to the point of exclusivity. Gemmers spend most of their time in the Quarter, and "rogue" magickers spend most of their time in places I can't talk about on the GDB. It seems pretty natural that players are going to want their characters to go someplace they're wanted and welcomed, rather than ostracized, but I can only think of three clans that are open to magickers, and the only city that allows magickers is still pretty hostile to them.
To some degree this is fine - I wouldn't want to see a dozen gemmed PCs hanging in the Gaj - but I really get the impression that all the hate/fear has done is create two different societies within the game. You have mundanes doing mundane things, getting involved in mundane plots and drama while magickers are doing magicker things and getting involved in magicker plots and drama, and the two don't seem to cross paths all that often.
Is there a way to fear/hate on magickers without driving them away?
This has been my concern with magick in the game ever since the Cataclysm. Beforehand, it seemed that there was this scaled tier of fear/hatred from mundane to elementalist to sorcerer.
Mundanes were, of course, treated in whatever way made sense for the character.
Elementalists were considered useful, but also dangerous, similar to the way that some people raise and interact with exotic pets that could easily kill them. Working with them was potentially dangerous and they needed to be properly trained, watched, and monitored because they
could cause some real trouble. Occasionally, when one of them acted up, you needed to put them down. However, there was a place for them in general society as something of a useful oddity.
Sorcerers were basically treated in the way the game handles most magickers now, which is feared, hated, and killed on sight.
I much preferred that model, because it kept about 98% of the playerbase interacting in the same space and allowed the choice of whether you trust or hate someone up to the player instead of up to the documentation. Only the worst of the worst reserved the unequivocal kill on sight, fight or flight, blight upon the world response that seems to be pushed as the standard today. It was the result of an IC event and, thus, probably won't ever be changed unless at the hands of another IC event.
Unfortunately, that IC event will probably have to be the world ending and Arm 2 beginning.
-LoD
I'd love to see this game focus a lot more on PvE content. Magickers and mundanes banding together to save the Known. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be where the game is headed.
Quote from: janeshephard on June 18, 2010, 04:44:46 PM
I'd love to see this game focus a lot more on PvE content. Magickers and mundanes banding together to save the Known. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be where the game is headed.
Wat? :o :P
Quote from: janeshephard on June 18, 2010, 04:44:46 PM
I'd love to see this game focus a lot more on PvE content. Magickers and mundanes banding together to save the Known. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be where the game is headed.
Same. Or, rather, I'd rather the focus be more targetted, at least in Allanak where people are likely to have a higher exposure to that sort of thing. (ie: An angry mob outside the krathi temple? Hello? As it is, it's damn near at the mouth of the water temple, wtf?) I dunno. I'd rather see racism and such be brought into it more as well. I can see a lot of reason why people in Allanak (in Allanak) would be more than friendly to vivs. I would think the general populace would largely have a view of them as happy bunny healers who make the rarest and most necessary commodity in the Known in unlimited supplies and for free. I dunno, it seems backward and illogical. Yes, there ARE scary things that all magickers can do, but I would think that fear of going against the Highlord and his declaration of them being allowed to live there and essentially his tools, would stay a lot of hands. If not all, at the very least, most.
I'm voting the other way. I think that it would ruin the flavor of the game. I like that magickers are hated. I think they should be. That's the culture. Maybe it's just a reluctance to see change, but this is the game I've been playing for eight years, the one where there is racial hatred, where magickers are hated, where if you think somone's been mean to you, you're probably right. I feel like the game isn't broken and that this "fix" would break it. It would change the way Zalanthas feels. Arm.2 is going to do that. The time we have left with this world, as is, is already too finite without this sort of change.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on June 08, 2010, 11:46:43 PM
I don't think I've ever ONCE played a character who hated magick. Nearly all of them fear it, but I've never had one hate it. I don't hate a butcher knife coming at my face. I fear it will kill me. Thank you, that is all.
Actually, I think that the docs are pretty clear on this one. Commoners fear/hate magic. Not sure why you're not playing this way.
Only response I can come up with to that is that we'd need an extensive Looking For Group system so I could insure I had enough healers and not just a bunch of warmages. And to make obelisks and the like that act as summoning stones. And to please put big bad beasties near those that the entire group would need to take down once per reboot with epic loot.
Quote from: Armaddict on June 18, 2010, 07:52:54 PM
Only response I can come up with to that is that we'd need an extensive Looking For Group system so I could insure I had enough healers and not just a bunch of warmages. And to make obelisks and the like that act as summoning stones. And to please put big bad beasties near those that the entire group would need to take down once per reboot with epic loot.
I was thinking more along the lines of big arcing plots with RPTs where players get together and their fate changes the world.
For what it's worth epic lootz and LFG is in the game. Some clans go out and do things and come back with stuff.
Quote from: janeshephard on June 18, 2010, 08:05:45 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of big arcing plots with RPTs where players get together and their fate changes the world.
Pretty sure we already have those too.
Quote from: janeshephard on June 18, 2010, 04:44:46 PM
I'd love to see this game focus a lot more on PvE content. Magickers and mundanes banding together to save the Known. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be where the game is headed.
I believe this happened a few years ago.
:(
(Disclaimer: frowny face is not official staff opinion. It is official Geryon opinion.)
Quote from: janeshephard on June 18, 2010, 08:05:45 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of big arcing plots with RPTs where players get together and their fate changes the world.
This does happen/has happened, yes.
Quote from: jriley on June 18, 2010, 07:52:10 PM
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on June 08, 2010, 11:46:43 PM
I don't think I've ever ONCE played a character who hated magick. Nearly all of them fear it, but I've never had one hate it. I don't hate a butcher knife coming at my face. I fear it will kill me. Thank you, that is all.
Actually, I think that the docs are pretty clear on this one. Commoners fear/hate magic. Not sure why you're not playing this way.
They DO fear it. They just don't hate it (MY commoner pcs do not, to clarify). Not unless it's made a negative personal impact on their lives or unless they've had specifically negative (ie actively antagonistic) encounters with specific magickers.
Dictionary.com says:
Quote
hate
/heɪt/ Show Spelled [heyt] Show IPA verb, hat·ed, hat·ing, noun
–verb (used with object)
1.
to dislike intensely or passionately; feel extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward; detest: to hate the enemy; to hate bigotry.
2.
to be unwilling; dislike: I hate to do it.
–verb (used without object)
3.
to feel intense dislike, or extreme aversion or hostility.
–noun
4.
intense dislike; extreme aversion or hostility.
5.
the object of extreme aversion or hostility.
fear (fîr)
n.
1.
1.
A feeling of agitation and anxiety caused by the presence or imminence of danger.
2.
A state or condition marked by this feeling: living in fear.
2.
A feeling of disquiet or apprehension: a fear of looking foolish.
3.
Extreme reverence or awe, as toward a supreme power.
4.
A reason for dread or apprehension: Being alone is my greatest fear.
Yes, they do in fact fear it. But they do not have hostility toward it, as the multiple different meanings of hatred allude to. They are apprehensive, reverent, and anxious toward it, but I can't see for the life of me why ANYONE would be openly hostile toward someone who could melt you where you stand. That seems to be in complete opposition to the supposed self-preservation instincts they would have, also according to documentation.
This is what is known as arguing semantics. And really, with all the discussion that has been pointed to, over and over...the concept of 'hate and fear' is pretty clear, and has been made pretty clear, very very many times.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on June 18, 2010, 09:09:24 PM
Quote from: jriley on June 18, 2010, 07:52:10 PM
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on June 08, 2010, 11:46:43 PM
I don't think I've ever ONCE played a character who hated magick. Nearly all of them fear it, but I've never had one hate it. I don't hate a butcher knife coming at my face. I fear it will kill me. Thank you, that is all.
Actually, I think that the docs are pretty clear on this one. Commoners fear/hate magic. Not sure why you're not playing this way.
They DO fear it. They just don't hate it (MY commoner pcs do not, to clarify). Not unless it's made a negative personal impact on their lives or unless they've had specifically negative (ie actively antagonistic) encounters with specific magickers.
Yes, they do in fact fear it. But they do not have hostility toward it, as the multiple different meanings of hatred allude to. They are apprehensive, reverent, and anxious toward it, but I can't see for the life of me why ANYONE would be openly hostile toward someone who could melt you where you stand. That seems to be in complete opposition to the supposed self-preservation instincts they would have, also according to documentation.
If that's is how you're choosing to play your characters, and you're happy then I don't see any reason to try to argue you out of it. But if you're trying to encourage the rest of the playerbase to play that way, then I think that's a problem. They docs state that most people hate and fear (no I'm not quoting) magick. That's the plan. Let's not encourage people to deviate from the plan.
There's really nothing in the docs that will serve as an unquestionable basis for how every PC reacts to magick.
To those who think otherwise, I humbly submit that you are overstating your case.
I think this entire thread is an exercise in attempting to mold popular opinion one way or another, based on predilections more than documentation.
It's easy to hold extreme positions on internet forums, though...it makes you sound so tough and resolute!
Quote from: Synthesis on June 18, 2010, 10:55:53 PM
There's really nothing in the docs that will serve as an unquestionable basis for how every PC reacts to magick.
To those who think otherwise, I humbly submit that you are overstating your case.
Staff have stated time and time again that magickers are abominations and should be hated and feared....
Quote from: Qzzrbl on June 19, 2010, 12:23:25 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on June 18, 2010, 10:55:53 PM
There's really nothing in the docs that will serve as an unquestionable basis for how every PC reacts to magick.
To those who think otherwise, I humbly submit that you are overstating your case.
Staff have stated time and time again that magickers are abominations and should be hated and feared....
By the vast majority of the population. That doesn't stop anyone from writing up a PC that legitimately doesn't hate or fear at least a subset of magickers.
It's the old "PC exceptionalism" vs. "General documentation" argument. The docs describe the world that our characters live in, not our characters themselves. Is there interplay? Sure. Should you completely ignore them? Of course not. Is there considerable leeway? Yes.
I enjoy both the harassing Bynner trying to rally the whole Gaj against my filthy wiggler and the guy who gets bug-eyed, starts mumbling excuses and trips over his own feet trying to leave the bar in a hurry. I'm also glad there are folks who seek to use you like a tool and those who seem curious and behave rather nicely towards you. I try to return that spectrum with my mundane characters.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on June 19, 2010, 12:23:25 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on June 18, 2010, 10:55:53 PM
There's really nothing in the docs that will serve as an unquestionable basis for how every PC reacts to magick.
To those who think otherwise, I humbly submit that you are overstating your case.
Staff have stated time and time again that magickers are abominations and should be hated and feared....
People aren't disagreeing with you. They're saying this is causing two societies to exist. The magickers and the mundanes and some folks would like it if it was less like this.
There -are- different societies. But they're not split strictly into magickers vs. mundanes. You'll only see that in Allanak. In Tuluk, there's mundanes, and no one else, because no one else is ALLOWED there, period. Then, it becomes a split between the couth and the uncouth. The artist and the no-talent nobodies. The licensed and the unlicensed.
In Luir's Outpost, it's Kurac and everyone else.
In the desert, it's the desert elves and everyone else.
In the desert, if you're a desert elf but ALSO a magicker, you have a much higher chance of living amongst the desert elves, than a city mage.
So really, it all depends. There aren't merely "mundanes and magicker." There's a HUGE HUGE variety of "other." Some of which are mundane. Some of which are magicker. If all you are ever seeing is mundane vs. magicker, I recommend you try playing something that doesn't rely on going to, or living in, either city.
To be frank I'm more scared of dwarves than anything else out there. They're stubborn and if they have a focus involving causing violence to you they can't be reasoned with :) Anything else and you might have a chance at reasoning with it.
Quote from: Lizzie on June 19, 2010, 09:50:22 AM
There -are- different societies. But they're not split strictly into magickers vs. mundanes.
You're talking about planned cultural and geographic divisions. The rest of us are talking about a rift in the playerbase caused by an overreaction to and an overreaction of "fear and hate".
When you type 'who' and see 30 players on, there's a pretty decent chance that 10 of those players are in the Gaj, 10 are in the Sanctuary, and 10 are in Secret Magicker Hideout #57. There's a reasonable overlap between the 20 Gaj-Sanctuary populations: The three Kadian guards in the Sanctuary are friends with the two Salarri guards in the Gaj, the Bynners in the Gaj have worked with the nobles in the Sanctuary, and so on. The 10 people in the magicker hideout, however, never interact with the other 20 Gaj-Sanctuary people, and vice versa. This is a bad thing because it removes an entire dimension from the game (except for when a big HRPT comes along and everyone conveniently puts their differences aside for 12 hours).
There are dozens of reasons for magickers and mundanes to avoid each other, and very few reasons for them to interact. For example, there should be huge tangible benefits to being gemmed in Allanak to balance out all the detriments; at the very least, being gemmed should open the door to being clanned by more than a single group.
Quote from: Old Kank on June 19, 2010, 10:44:58 AM
When you type 'who' and see 30 players on, there's a pretty decent chance that 10 of those players are in the Gaj, 10 are in the Sanctuary, and 10 are in Secret Magicker Hideout #57. There's a reasonable overlap between the 20 Gaj-Sanctuary populations: The three Kadian guards in the Sanctuary are friends with the two Salarri guards in the Gaj, the Bynners in the Gaj have worked with the nobles in the Sanctuary, and so on. The 10 people in the magicker hideout, however, never interact with the other 20 Gaj-Sanctuary people, and vice versa. This is a bad thing because it removes an entire dimension from the game (except for when a big HRPT comes along and everyone conveniently puts their differences aside for 12 hours).
I agree with your statistics, but not your message.
I don't think that all characters need to be friends/associates of all characters. Sometimes the most entertaining form of interaction is avoidance.
From a balance standpoint, one of the chief disadvantages of the standard commoner characters (as well as the desert-faring tribals) is that they are largely racist, ignorant, superstitious, financially ignorant, illiterate, insensitive, and poor planners. It's a challenge to play somebody like this if you're a well-educated, wealthy, literate westerner but that's part of what makes this a challenging game.
edit: for clarity after i was done pretending to listen to girlfriend talk on phone
Quote from: jriley on June 19, 2010, 12:06:42 PM
Quote from: Old Kank on June 19, 2010, 10:44:58 AM
When you type 'who' and see 30 players on, there's a pretty decent chance that 10 of those players are in the Gaj, 10 are in the Sanctuary, and 10 are in Secret Magicker Hideout #57. There's a reasonable overlap between the 20 Gaj-Sanctuary populations: The three Kadian guards in the Sanctuary are friends with the two Salarri guards in the Gaj, the Bynners in the Gaj have worked with the nobles in the Sanctuary, and so on. The 10 people in the magicker hideout, however, never interact with the other 20 Gaj-Sanctuary people, and vice versa. This is a bad thing because it removes an entire dimension from the game (except for when a big HRPT comes along and everyone conveniently puts their differences aside for 12 hours).
I disagree. I don't think that all characters need to be friends/associates of all characters. Sometimes the most entertaining form of interaction is avoidance.
From a balance standpoint, one of the chief disadvantages of the standard commoner characters (as well as the desert-faring tribals) is that they are largely racist, ignorant, superstitious, financially ignorant, illiterate, insensitive,
Sparing "illiterate"-- alot of upper-crust society of Zalanthas falls into these disadvantages as well.
Old Kank, I'm saying that the only place you see this is in Allanak. And the only time you actually -know- that you're seeing it, is when it involves a gemmer. You have no idea if the guy you're drinking with at the Gaj is a magicker or not, unless he's wearing a gem. The division you're so concerned about, is a division between the Gemmed and Other People in Allanak.
Not every PC lives in Allanak, and not ever magicker is gemmed.
(http://i46.tinypic.com/15euwx0.gif)
They see me castin'. They hatin'.
And just like that, I had my next character concept.
Quote from: janeshephard on June 18, 2010, 04:44:46 PM
I'd love to see this game focus a lot more on PvE content. Magickers and mundanes banding together to save the Known. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be where the game is headed.
This pretty much happened, and results were universally bad if I remember. Armaddict made a pretty hilarious point about the game turning into WoW that no one seemed to get, if this were to happen, but that's not exactly what the past has shown us. Instead we had people slowly realizing how useless mundanes were in comparison to the Gemmed and Magickers, and as such many mundanes were being left out from certain things, and generally feeling like the ostracized ones, instead of the 'gickers, like it should be.
It was an annoying thing to be a part of.
It works fine now, people still interact with magickers. People generally treat people who associate with magickers on friendly terms badly (which is good).
If you want to band together with magickers to save the know world, do it. You are not doing anything wrong, as long as the majority of players reacts appropriately.
I have in the past though been annoyed at people stand up and defend their magicker friend in a bar in Allanak. Of course you can be friendly towards magickers, but you still HAVE to pay attention to the docs, which state that the population in general hate and fear them. That is, your PC would probably be a little ashamed to say the least.
More likely your mundane magicker lover would be scared to admit it publicly. Your mundane doesn't have the power of magick and superstition making all those other people scared of you like your magicker friend does. A much smaller mob can take you out.
I think, what I have been dancing around and unable to say is this:
Magickers are very powerful. Instead of a coded balance to magick there is a social one. I think that works.
Quote from: Barzalene on June 19, 2010, 03:48:32 PM
I think, what I have been dancing around and unable to say is this:
Magickers are very powerful. Instead of a coded balance to magick there is a social one. I think that works.
That's the argument I once presented, and everyone got pissed off about it. But it's still true.
Maybe hearing you say it was how I figured out what I wanted to say.
Now people can be pissed at me too.
Perhaps the solution is to spend more time making mundane skillsets flexible and powerful, causing situations where mages are not necessarily the most useful option. As it stands, magick can do nearly anything that mundanes can do, and better. This is not how it should be if we want an interacting (rather than a fragmented) gameworld.
Disclaimer: interaction doesn't have to mean buddy-buddy friendly stuff. I'd rather see conflict that brings players together (such as competition over resources, disagreements in politics, etc) rather than conflict that drives players apart (clan A shuns and avoids clan B at all costs).
QuoteAs it stands, magick can do nearly anything that mundanes can do, and better.
I totally disagree with that.
Any single mundane is far more flexible then any elementalist with a greater number of useful and powerful skills in almost all cases. Elementalists are quite narrow in scope of abilities and often you need 2 or 3 different kinds to do something a single mundane can do. What mages do have over mundanes is a faster skill up ability.
While a 5 day mundane is pretty much a newb, the 5 day elementalist is already useful.
Unfortunatly a vast number of PCs never make it past 10 days or so of play so it will seem the mages are more powerful then they really are in comparison.
I agree with X-D. If you want magick versatility you're thinking sorcerer. Elementalists are, by their nature, limited to their element.
EDIT: no one shout foul, this is in the help files.
Yeah, maybe I was thinking mainly of the sorcerer skillset. However (and avoiding specifics) there are certain things that certain classes of mages can do better than their mundane equivalent. I'd like to see that changed - perhaps mages are more viable in esoteric and rare situations, dealing with the <IC> parts of the world, but when it comes to mundane abilities and dealings, mundanes should be the way to go. As it is, the common perception (whether right or wrong) seems to be that mages are better at it all.
Magickers are more effective in certain things, sure. In others, they're not. The same goes for anyone, honestly. That's how it works. All sorts of things work as balancing weights, and they've all been mentioned. I think there's not much else to say, honestly.
Not really.
I'd like to less necessity for 'social' consequences. As it is now, they're the only thing that keeps it all balanced. Magick got a huge boost a few years ago, but mundanes didn't. Develop mundane skills and abilities to a reasonably equal level and there would be less need to fragment the playerbase.
That's the whole point.
Bring the playerbase together with conflict that promotes interaction, rather than fragmenting it with conflict that discourages interaction.
That said, I don't expect it to ever happen in Armageddon. Things are too set in stone.
Maybe. But I don't want my mundanes to be buffer. And I don't really want the attitude toward magickers to change.
I like things the way they are.
Quote from: a strange shadow on June 20, 2010, 12:27:11 AMThat said, I don't expect it to ever happen in Armageddon. Things are too set in stone.
;)
Quote from: a strange shadow on June 20, 2010, 12:36:06 AM
Quote from: a strange shadow on June 20, 2010, 12:27:11 AMThat said, I don't expect it to ever happen in Armageddon. Things are too set in stone.
;)
A gemmed man says, in sirihish,
"I don't like you."
hemote reaches into ~cloak, and wraps his hand around the blade of his dagger.
You say, in sirihish,
"That's funny. Know why?"
A gemmed man says, in Sirihish, in a concerned tone,
"No... why?"
backstab gemmed
You impale a gemmed man with a dagger in the throat!
A gemmed man falls over, dead.
You say, in Sirihish,
"I hate your fuckin' guts."
Point in case: Gemmers aren't be-all end all. There's still somebody that can kill them. It's just a matter of how bad you want to die vs how bad you want them to die. The stigma comes from -this- happening instead:
A gemmed man sees you before you succeed!
A gemmed man utters an incantation.
You're burninated!
You die!
(Beep)So, socially? Yeah, Gemmed and magick in general is pretty feared. Going up against a magicker? Don't count on your skills beforehand. If you get stuck fighting a magicker? Definitely count on your ability to hopefully notdie, while understanding that you're gonna die. And piss yourself, and probably run into a hole crying if you -do- survive because you were THAT close to dying. You're not immune to magick; don't act like you are. Unless your character has something wrong in his head, you're probably -not- going to type "hit gemmer" in a bar. You're gonna shut the fuck up and sit down and stop bugging him. Because in the black of night, he'll turn you into a damn erdlu stew and -eat- you!
Mine usually depend on location, since location breeds culture, and culture breeds ways of thinking.
My rinthis? Usually revere magickers and sacrifice newbies to their skull thrones.
My tulukis? I don't give a shit, if I see a magicker in the wastes, I'm going to try and scrag him in the name of the Sun King. It's a very rewarding experience.
My 'nakis? Hatred mixed with grudging acceptance and fear.
Ultimately though, depends on the character.
And Saellyn raises a good point.
j/k :P
I would maintain that your lone Tuluki trying to scrag every magicker he sees is being somewhat unrealistic. That's like you trying to beat up with rocks and sticks every tank, semi or city bus you see. You need a lot more of you with rocks and sticks to take that magicker out.
Quote from: spawnloser on June 20, 2010, 12:05:40 PM
I would maintain that your lone Tuluki trying to scrag every magicker he sees is being somewhat unrealistic. That's like you trying to beat up with rocks and sticks every tank, semi or city bus you see. You need a lot more of you with rocks and sticks to take that magicker out.
Which I would imagine wouldn't matter to his PC, seeing as how he's doing it for glory and honor of the Sun King.
Quasi-religious fanaticism can do some amazing things. ;)
A while ago someone mentioned that 'gicker hunters' shouldn't really exist or if they do be exceptional people since, again, we seem to be doing the 'hate' thing but not the 'fear' thing.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on June 20, 2010, 12:07:48 PM
Quote from: spawnloser on June 20, 2010, 12:05:40 PM
I would maintain that your lone Tuluki trying to scrag every magicker he sees is being somewhat unrealistic. That's like you trying to beat up with rocks and sticks every tank, semi or city bus you see. You need a lot more of you with rocks and sticks to take that magicker out.
Which I would imagine wouldn't matter to his PC, seeing as how he's doing it for glory and honor of the Sun King.
Quasi-religious fanaticism can do some amazing things. ;)
I would also maintain that people rarely play this sort of quasi-religious fanatic. They aren't berserkers or drug-crazed lunatics let loose upon an enemy. They are, in most cases, just normal people that know that magicks leveled their city once... completely. They're aren't suicidal in following the Sun King.
Quote from: Barzalene on June 20, 2010, 12:32:39 AM
Maybe. But I don't want my mundanes to be buffer. And I don't really want the attitude toward magickers to change.
I like things the way they are.
What about the people that liked "things the way they are" before the game changed several years ago. Many players don't even know what an atmosphere like that feels like because it's never existed for them.
Years ago, elementalists were made much more powerful than before, and the social consequences were implemented. Unfortunately, the style of interaction in most places outside of Allanak became flee, kill, or be killed. Old Kank and others are just lamenting the resulting lack of interaction options between most magickers and mundanes.
The small playerbase levels harsher consequences under such division, and that's generally the issue I'm most concerned with when these topics come up.
-LoD
I hear what you're saying. Yes, with a small playerbase it is important to facilitate as much interplay as possible. Yes.
But I don't think that sacrificing the culture of the game to do it is the way to go. It's like the c-elf d-elf thing. If you want to play an elf then you need to embrace the idea what you, as an elf are a we, not an I.
If you want a lot of easy interaction, you can in fact play one of the many many mundane classes available.
We're not talking about a code change here. If it was a code change I wouldn't care. I don't mind if you add more skills to the magickers or fewer to mundanes. Code changes are things that you just learn to live with.
But this is saying, let's change the entire flavor of the game. That's a huge issue.You can't just glibly chalk it up to be more flexible.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on June 20, 2010, 12:07:48 PM
Quote from: spawnloser on June 20, 2010, 12:05:40 PM
I would maintain that your lone Tuluki trying to scrag every magicker he sees is being somewhat unrealistic. That's like you trying to beat up with rocks and sticks every tank, semi or city bus you see. You need a lot more of you with rocks and sticks to take that magicker out.
Which I would imagine wouldn't matter to his PC, seeing as how he's doing it for glory and honor of the Sun King.
Quasi-religious fanaticism can do some amazing things. ;)
Indeed my good man.
Quote from: LoD on June 20, 2010, 12:51:16 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on June 20, 2010, 12:32:39 AM
Maybe. But I don't want my mundanes to be buffer. And I don't really want the attitude toward magickers to change.
I like things the way they are.
What about the people that liked "things the way they are" before the game changed several years ago. Many players don't even know what an atmosphere like that feels like because it's never existed for them.
Reading this thread has made me wonder why people seem so comfortable with the magicker love-hate pendulum firmly planted in the 'hate' zone. As shadow said, nothing is going to change at this point, but I'd love to take a quick straw poll of anyone invested enough in this topic to respond:
1. Do you like things the way they are now, or do you think the game would benefit from a more tempered responses to magickers? (
'Tempered responses' is not a call for free-love and hugs between mundanes and magickers, or the WoW-ization of Arm, but reactions other than immediate ostracizing, elimination from most clan roles, and/or killing.)
2. When did you start playing? Before the cataclysmic event of a couple years ago, when magick was everywhere? During the Allanaki occupation of Tuluk, before there was a major anti-magick city-state? Before karma went in, when every other character was a lovey-huggy-preserver?
3. Have you played a magicker in the last 6-12 months? If so, were they generally known as a magicker, or were they a 'rogue' magicker?
4. Have you been involved with the current "magick" side of the game?
5. Would you rather have more or less magick in the game?
Quote from: Old Kank on June 20, 2010, 01:35:40 PM
1. Do you like things the way they are now, or do you think the game would benefit from a more tempered responses to magickers? ('Tempered responses' is not a call for free-love and hugs between mundanes and magickers, or the WoW-ization of Arm, but reactions other than immediate ostracizing, elimination from most clan roles, and/or killing.)
More, and more varied, tempered responses. More of the fear, more of the anxiety that goes along with the notion that you are -about- to drink tea with an power rifle, cocked and loaded, and set to shoot randomly - or that might possibly just aim at your enemy - simply because it can.
Quote
2. When did you start playing? Before the cataclysmic event of a couple years ago, when magick was everywhere? During the Allanaki occupation of Tuluk, before there was a major anti-magick city-state? Before karma went in, when every other character was a lovey-huggy-preserver?
Pre-lava, post-Nakki Occupation. I remember Ten Serak. I do not remember players being allowed to play mantises.
Quote3. Have you played a magicker in the last 6-12 months? If so, were they generally known as a magicker, or were they a 'rogue' magicker?
Any magicker I might or might not have had in the past 6-12 months might or might not be too recent to mention.
Quote4. Have you been involved with the current "magick" side of the game?
Too current to mention, and I'm not sure WHICH current magick side of the game you refer to.
Quote5. Would you rather have more or less magick in the game?
I like things how they are now. On the other hand, I don't know how things are in places my current character doesn't go. I might feel otherwise, otherwise.
Quote1. Do you like things the way they are now, or do you think the game would benefit from a more tempered responses to magickers? ('Tempered responses' is not a call for free-love and hugs between mundanes and magickers, or the WoW-ization of Arm, but reactions other than immediate ostracizing, elimination from most clan roles, and/or killing.)
No, I do not like the way things are now, the fact that most mages are put up at the level of hatred almost equal to sorcerer is silly.
Quote2. When did you start playing? Before the cataclysmic event of a couple years ago, when magick was everywhere? During the Allanaki occupation of Tuluk, before there was a major anti-magick city-state? Before karma went in, when every other character was a lovey-huggy-preserver?
I started playing before sorcerers were a playable class. I think it is funny how many people think the current IG hatred of mages is from IC events. It is not, staff started pushing it ICly through use of NPC clan leaders LONG before any of the IC events later.
And I do not agree with it, at least from the gemmed side.
Quote3. Have you played a magicker in the last 6-12 months? If so, were they generally known as a magicker, or were they a 'rogue' magicker?
No, my last mage was just over a year ago, gemmed, and I have nothing but bad things to say about it.
Quote4. Have you been involved with the current "magick" side of the game?
Yes
Quote5. Would you rather have more or less magick in the game?
I think the amount of magick in the game is fine.
Quote1. Do you like things the way they are now, or do you think the game would benefit from a more tempered responses to magickers? ('Tempered responses' is not a call for free-love and hugs between mundanes and magickers, or the WoW-ization of Arm, but reactions other than immediate ostracizing, elimination from most clan roles, and/or killing.)
I think "the way the things are now" (as the docs say they should be) would be perfect if they were made slightly more lax. My personal problems are the way it's portrayed in-game by paticular players.
Quote2. When did you start playing? Before the cataclysmic event of a couple years ago, when magick was everywhere? During the Allanaki occupation of Tuluk, before there was a major anti-magick city-state? Before karma went in, when every other character was a lovey-huggy-preserver?
Post-occupation.
Quote
3. Have you played a magicker in the last 6-12 months? If so, were they generally known as a magicker, or were they a 'rogue' magicker?
Experience with both.
Quote4. Have you been involved with the current "magick" side of the game?
Yep.
Quote
5. Would you rather have more or less magick in the game?
Less, or at the very least, more ways for a magicker to keep their head down and be able to interact with society without taking a gem.
1. Too comprehensive a question. Tempered could many too many things. I don't dislike how it is now, but I wouldn't mind seeing more opportunities. I actually played a Salarri years ago that was tasked with finding a krathi/armorcrafter or krathi/weaponcrafter for certain tasks, and it was an IMM-began plot. I would like to see more using of magickers but with social ostracism for doing so publicly, so no strike-forces of magickers or the like.
2. Barely post-occupation.
3. Yes.
4. Yes.
5. Amount is fine, I think.
Quote1. Do you like things the way they are now, or do you think the game would benefit from a more tempered responses to magickers? ('Tempered responses' is not a call for free-love and hugs between mundanes and magickers, or the WoW-ization of Arm, but reactions other than immediate ostracizing, elimination from most clan roles, and/or killing.)
I think things are more or less fine the way they are now. I wouldn't mind additions to the gemmer's quarters, though. A bar, an expanded shopping center, and a gemmer day care center wouldn't be a bad start.
Quote2. When did you start playing? Before the cataclysmic event of a couple years ago, when magick was everywhere? During the Allanaki occupation of Tuluk, before there was a major anti-magick city-state? Before karma went in, when every other character was a lovey-huggy-preserver?
Post-occupation, pre-Copper wars. Like 04-05ish, when Shatuka was still around and you could still make a PC without worrying about the Second Coming.
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3. Have you played a magicker in the last 6-12 months? If so, were they generally known as a magicker, or were they a 'rogue' magicker?
Yeah. I've never played a "rogue" 'gicker that wasn't in some kind of coded tribe, though. The general impression I've gotten is that, as a rogue 'gicker, you'll get whacked by a d-elf or caught by the templarate of one of the city states before you hit 5 days (unless you hide out in a certain village and find work doing a certain thing).
Quote4. Have you been involved with the current "magick" side of the game?
Yuh.
Quote
5. Would you rather have more or less magick in the game?
I think the amount in the game right now is just fine. People getting jaded about magick is partially an OOC thing you can't really help.
For the benefit of those that never saw the model before the Cataclysm of ~1998, which was the IC event that triggered a lot of the changes to the elementalists, this is a rough approximation of how the game "felt" to me in terms of progression in terms of Days Played to the coded Power Potential of a given character.
Mundanes were the most common and the most powerful out of the gate, and were likely the more powerful characters in a given environment the majority of the time due to the scarcity of sorcerers and the slow progression of elementalists. People that wanted a quick access to power went mundane, because the other paths were either too restrictive or took too long.
Elementalists progressed very slowly and were fragile in their beginning stages. Many of them were forced to ally with mundane organizations and institutions as a method of survival against physical and political attacks from those who feared their ultimate potential, encouraging a wider variety of options for social interplay between mundane and magickers. However, in the long run, the elementalists would eventually eclipse the power potential of the mundanes and a handful would become dangerous and legendary.
Sorcerers were a combination of the two, inheriting both the quick progression of the mundanes and the high power potential of the elementalists, with the highest possible potential for coded power. It was because of this rapid rise and unparalleled potential for coded power coupled with their unique methods of acquiring magickal energy that made them some of the feared and hated beings on Zalanthas, which is what warranted the kill-on-sight culture mandated by most major civilizations in the Known World.
(http://members.wolfram.com/jtodd/chart.png)
The numbers are all just made up examples, so don't spend too much time focusing on the values as much as on the general concept as a whole -- which afforded magickers and mundanes more interesting options than the current fear and hatred model that's been running for the last decade. Most people simply haven't ever known anything different.
I felt this was a better model because it allowed for a dependency to develop between mundanes and magickers; a dependency that led to a wider variety of options for social interaction and integration within the game world as a whole. In many cases, it required the cooperation of both entities to combat the truly powerful sources in the world. Magick was feared, but elementalists progressed in such a way that did not require them to be universally feared, hated, and hunted by the mundane population.
-LoD
Nice, LoD.
Quote from: X-D on June 20, 2010, 01:58:54 PM
I started playing before sorcerers were a playable class. I think it is funny how many people think the current IG hatred of mages is from IC events. It is not, staff started pushing it ICly through use of NPC clan leaders LONG before any of the IC events later.
NPC clan leaders in pre-cataclysm Tuluki times were pushing for hatred of mages?
Actually Nyr, I'm not even talking about that, I'm talking about Nak, and gemmers, I leave Tuluk out of the picture when talking about magick.
Before, during and after the rebellion, In nak. Gemmers could and did work for several clans. Some of them even had thier own ops.
But in each case, Staff logged in with a NPC leader and said NO MORE MAGES.
This is the first thing to set the later tone on gemmers in allanak. Because then they got set apart from the rest of the clans, save one. And even that one is only useful for human gemmers.
What had been incorperated into allanak sociaty was now...Well, not. And so, the beginning of the outright hatred of all mages in allanak.
The cataclysm was a staff creation as well BTW.
Quote from: X-D on June 21, 2010, 03:15:26 PM
Actually Nyr, I'm not even talking about that, I'm talking about Nak, and gemmers, I leave Tuluk out of the picture when talking about magick.
Before, during and after the rebellion, In nak. Gemmers could and did work for several clans. Some of them even had thier own ops.
But in each case, Staff logged in with a NPC leader and said NO MORE MAGES.
This is the first thing to set the later tone on gemmers in allanak. Because then they got set apart from the rest of the clans, save one. And even that one is only useful for human gemmers.
What had been incorperated into allanak sociaty was now...Well, not. And so, the beginning of the outright hatred of all mages in allanak.
The cataclysm was a staff creation as well BTW.
So...shouldn't that just be a sign that something was going very wrong? It seems like you're talking about 'glory years' that you were screwed out of, when really that sounds like everyone went mage happy and staff had to come in and say 'Remember the way the game is played, please.'
Quote from: Armaddict on June 21, 2010, 03:24:34 PM
Quote from: X-D on June 21, 2010, 03:15:26 PM
Actually Nyr, I'm not even talking about that, I'm talking about Nak, and gemmers, I leave Tuluk out of the picture when talking about magick.
Before, during and after the rebellion, In nak. Gemmers could and did work for several clans. Some of them even had thier own ops.
But in each case, Staff logged in with a NPC leader and said NO MORE MAGES.
This is the first thing to set the later tone on gemmers in allanak. Because then they got set apart from the rest of the clans, save one. And even that one is only useful for human gemmers.
What had been incorperated into allanak sociaty was now...Well, not. And so, the beginning of the outright hatred of all mages in allanak.
The cataclysm was a staff creation as well BTW.
So...shouldn't that just be a sign that something was going very wrong? It seems like you're talking about 'glory years' that you were screwed out of, when really that sounds like everyone went mage happy and staff had to come in and say 'Remember the way the game is played, please.'
The staff should probably tell us, if that's the case.
Oh, okay. I just wanted to be sure I understood correctly.
Point of contention: staff created or not, it is still IC. (regardless of OOC reasoning behind something, what occurs IC is IC, separating things out into "staff did it" and "players did it" doesn't serve much purpose)
Point of clarification: the 1450 cataclysm was (if not directly caused by) directly influenced by players, as well as any other events since then.
Actually, the number of mages was then lower then it has been since, and the number of powerful mages MUCH lower.
Mages took a very long time to amass any sort of power. and a 20 day mage often fell to a 1 day burgler.
And the Halaster fix to empower mages did not happen for a couple years after all but 1 clan in nak stopped hiring gemmers.
So no, I don't think it was sign that anything was wrong. At least not from the playability side of the game. Sure, people bitched about how weak mages were, but then it did not matter much because gemmed mages had clans they could fall back on.
After they no longer had that then they had to be "fixed" They were gievn more power and the length of time it took to skill them up was reduced.
IE, the cause again can be traced back to staff stepping in and laying the npc hammer down. Which is not an IC event.
Here is what it looked like in Tor.
NPC noble walks in.
NPC noble says We are hiring no more mages.
PC noble and PC LT and PC lead aide all ask why?
NPC noble says "Because I said so."
NPC noble leaves.
(edit) Lightly influenced on the edges maybe. Hell, there was complaints at the time that there was nothing any player or group of players could have done to alter the outcome in any way that mattered.
Quote from: LoD on June 21, 2010, 02:49:13 PM
For the benefit of those that never saw the model before the Cataclysm of ~1998, which was the IC event that triggered a lot of the changes to the elementalists, this is a rough approximation of how the game "felt" to me in terms of progression in terms of Days Played to the coded Power Potential of a given character.
That's a very neat presentation, LOD. I can certainly admire that you've a definite point that you're making, and that magick/mundane characters once enjoyed a closer interaction during the early stages of the game in the 90's.
That being said, I think that the goal that this line of reasoning is aiming for will not work out for a couple of reasons, one of them being that our playerbase does not universally want to play social characters. There is a significant demographic of players that choose desert elves, halfing PC and magical characters for the very reason that they enjoy either playing alone or in small groups. I'll elaborate on this in another post soon, but I think it's an important point to appreciate when renegotiating the boundaries of mundane/wizard interaction.
The other point being that there is a thematic conflict against what you're proposing. Specifically arm is a low-magic setting. Many chroniclers tend to assume that the difference between a high-magic setting and a low-magic setting is the frequency with which one encounters magic. This is not so.
In truth, one of the biggest differentiators of a high-magic setting and a low-magic setting is the utility of magic to
solve problems. Magical characters (as well as templars and PC monsters) have more in common with NPC than most PC. Specifically, magic is a plot device that shows up in order to cause conflict. If you're a commoner, you're much more likely to get wounded, frightened or melted by magic than you are to be aided, protected or comforted by magic.
Can the average commoner cooperate with a spell-caster in order to solve problems? Only with the greatest difficulty. For most commoner PCs, this will happen only once in their game life or less.
In order to play correctly, most of our PC characters are meant to be terrified/hateful of magic.
Quote from: jriley on June 21, 2010, 03:43:42 PM
The other point being that there is a thematic conflict against what you're proposing. Specifically arm is a low-magic setting. Many chroniclers tend to assume that the difference between a high-magic setting and a low-magic setting is the frequency with which one encounters magic. This is not so.
In truth, one of the biggest differentiators of a high-magic setting and a low-magic setting is the utility of magic to solve problems. Magical characters (as well as templars and PC monsters) have more in common with NPC than most PC. Specifically, magic is a plot device that shows up in order to cause conflict. If you're a commoner, you're much more likely to get wounded, frightened or melted by magic than you are to be aided, protected or comforted by magic.
You may then find it interesting that I consider today's model to be much higher-magick, by your definition, than the period I was describing in my post due to a few byproducts produced by the slower-developing elementalist model.
First, there were fewer displays and common uses of powerful magicks back then, because it took the characters so long to actually develop the ability to use them. Elementalists took RL months and years to attain spells and abilities that can be achieved now in a matter of weeks. Because of this, the frequency with which you encountered anything but the most basic of spells and abilities was much less than it is today. And while elementalists had more potential to be used as part of an everyday solution, they often weren't nearly as capable.
Second, magick had a greater sense of mystery operating beneath that model. Fewer people played mages because it was difficult to skill them up and survive, which was much less fun to people that were looking for classes that offered the most coded power with the least effort. That slot generally fell to DE assassins or mullish warriors. Because elementalists required more time and patience to be successful, many of them never made it to their goal and those mysterious higher-tier spells were rarely employed and even more rarely witnessed by the general public.
Third, there were fewer utility spells and abilities under that model per elementalist, so the classes were actually less flexible and less utilitarian than they are today. And elementalists were initially so fragile, the Zalanthan wilderness was often a death sentence. The wilderness then was much more mundane, and the chances of wandering into any type of magickal being while you were out and about was minimal compared to your chances in today's game.
So, in practice, the older model that allowed for greater degrees of social interaction between the players actually resulted in a more mysterious, lower-magick setting than the one you have today driven by fear and hatred.
-LoD
Quote from: X-D on June 21, 2010, 03:35:55 PM
Actually, the number of mages was then lower then it has been since, and the number of powerful mages MUCH lower.
Mages took a very long time to amass any sort of power. and a 20 day mage often fell to a 1 day burgler.
And the Halaster fix to empower mages did not happen for a couple years after all but 1 clan in nak stopped hiring gemmers.
So no, I don't think it was sign that anything was wrong. At least not from the playability side of the game. Sure, people bitched about how weak mages were, but then it did not matter much because gemmed mages had clans they could fall back on.
After they no longer had that then they had to be "fixed" They were gievn more power and the length of time it took to skill them up was reduced.
IE, the cause again can be traced back to staff stepping in and laying the npc hammer down. Which is not an IC event.
Here is what it looked like in Tor.
NPC noble walks in.
NPC noble says We are hiring no more mages.
PC noble and PC LT and PC lead aide all ask why?
NPC noble says "Because I said so."
NPC noble leaves.
We've "dropped the hammer" before in other clans for other reasons, whether it be via NPC, e-mail, request response, or board post. I have done this myself. What is the point that you are making, and how does it relate to the discussion at hand? Are you saying that there should be more clans that gemmers can be involved in? Is this causing a problem? Is there a void in the game that is not filled due to these changes?
Quote
(edit) Lightly influenced on the edges maybe. Hell, there was complaints at the time that there was nothing any player or group of players could have done to alter the outcome in any way that mattered.
I'm not sure how to classify this one, but I'll try. You already know that we do not make any plots (except one) staff-created anymore. We let things develop as influenced by players. This has developed over time. In the past, there was less of an emphasis on player-created plots, but players still had the capacity to do so, and the ability to be involved in staff-created plots. Staff-created or no, players influenced it and were a major part of it (the Cataclysm stories I've written were based on logs, staff wiki information, and staff information about PCs involved). Where should the line be drawn, and is that even an important distinction to make?
Magick and how it affects my PC: I played one PC in a severely anti-magick area of the game. Even PCs that have plots and plans to destroy magickers can still fear them. Even PCs that fear and hate magickers can interact with them in a neutral setting. Even
that PC found an occasion to interact with magickers without trying to actively kill them. (one occasion only though)
Quote from: LoD on June 21, 2010, 04:07:12 PM
So, in practice, the older model that allowed for greater degrees of social interaction between the players actually resulted in a more mysterious, lower-magick setting than the one you have today driven by fear and hatred.
This is an interesting point, but I would also have you throw in the factor of "the great announcement of 2006" as a variable in this...can you write on that too?
Quote from: LoD on June 21, 2010, 04:07:12 PM
So, in practice, the older model that allowed for greater degrees of social interaction between the players actually resulted in a more mysterious, lower-magick setting than the one you have today driven by fear and hatred.
-LoD
Wow, I never looked at it that way. I guess you're right. Hmmm. Maybe the old way was better.
Quote from: Nyr on June 21, 2010, 02:57:41 PM
Quote from: X-D on June 20, 2010, 01:58:54 PM
I started playing before sorcerers were a playable class. I think it is funny how many people think the current IG hatred of mages is from IC events. It is not, staff started pushing it ICly through use of NPC clan leaders LONG before any of the IC events later.
NPC clan leaders in pre-cataclysm Tuluki times were pushing for hatred of mages?
Yes. Not hatred, exactly, but unacceptability. This was true even in '96. I remember Hanruak leaning on Rhydun/Alkyone, for example.
Quote from: Nyr on June 21, 2010, 04:13:51 PM
Quote from: LoD on June 21, 2010, 04:07:12 PM
So, in practice, the older model that allowed for greater degrees of social interaction between the players actually resulted in a more mysterious, lower-magick setting than the one you have today driven by fear and hatred.
This is an interesting point, but I would also have you throw in the factor of "the great announcement of 2006" as a variable in this...can you write on that too?
The announcement that Armageddon's doors would be closing in June, 2007 caught a lot of people by surprise, and was likely one of the more damaging events we've experienced as it pertains to maintaining the integrity and consistency of our small, but loyal, player base. While there was certainly no malice intended (quite the opposite, I think), the residual fallout has only recently seemed to be repaired nearly four years later.
Before discussing the flame that was generated by the announcement, it's important to understand the pool of gasoline onto which the flame was being tossed.
As a result of the Cataclysm, elementalists were displaced in the north as abominations to be feared, hated and hunted. In their current progression model, they proved to be easy prey without the environmental and political protection they once enjoyed by serving as a contributing, yet suspicious, member of civilized society. To balance this new social disadvantage, they were given "teeth". These teeth came in the form of faster skill progression, great power potential, and greater survival skills. However, there were a couple of flaws in the model that didn't surface until later down the road.
One was with karma. Karma is intended to afford trusted role-players the opportunity to attempt more difficult and limiting roles. Half-giants had near-limitless strength, but a lack of intelligence and, likely, no leadership potential. Muls had ferocious combat potential, but tied to a slavery role that frequently found the players storing due to lack of interaction or fulfillment. Elementalists had expanded power potential and rapid skill progression, but with extremely limited social options -- especially outside of Allanak. Karma worked well in the outset, but as people continued to earn karma and gain class options, the potential number of magickers began to increase.
Another issue was with power-gamers, or players who are primarily concerned with skill-maxing characters as quickly as possible so they can exert their will upon the game and its characters. This was long the province of assassins, rangers, and warriors. Sorcerers were too rare and restrictive to be an option, and elementalists were too slow and fragile to be attractive to the fast-paced nature of this player-type, whose incendiary game play was frequently self-destructive, hence, the need to pursue class/race combinations with fairly rapid skill progression.
Finally, we return to the announcement of 2006. As it pertains to magick, the announcement fueled a surge in high-karma applications (i.e. elementalists, sorcerers, and psionicists), which was likely compounded by the Staff's willingness to approve special applications by those players who may not have earned the trust required to play such classes in the past. And it was considered the right thing to do -- why not let people have access to things they've always wanted to try, especially when the game is already on a crash-course with planned disaster, right?
Except that disaster never came. Only the floodgates of high-karma roles.
Coupled with a newly designed progression model that had the potential to create huge magickal footprints onto the game, the growing number of karma players and the relaxing of restrictions beneath the announcement was a potent mix. The temptation of using these high-karma classes as a means to further plots or impact the game world increased even more when players were told that the game would soon come to an end. How could a mundane character, which may require 20 - 40 days of playing time hope to reach the point of coded and political power necessary to achieve their goals? This is likely what many people thought when hearing the announcement, and those that continued to play now had some other options to explore.
And, so, people began creating magickers. Some because they'd never played them before, some because they wanted to explore different options, some because it offered them a quick rise to meaningful power. And with some many people playing magickers, the mystery of magick, long kept in check by models of slow progression and a demand for patient game-play, slowly dissolved as power-players chose the same magicker over and over, and players who probably shouldn't have been playing magickers were given access to the class with the understanding that the game would soon be closed anyways.
However, the game didn't close.
The magicker footprint began to swell, and frequent posts regarding the proliferation of magickers into the game world began to surface more and more frequently. They were so easy to skill up that consequences didn't matter. It didn't really matter if your 10-day krathi died, because you could have a new one skilled up to nearly the same level 5 days later. The permadeath model works because the time you put into your character is an investment and, historically, it takes a long time for you to achieve certain levels of coded, financial and political power within the game. That invested time serves as a system of checks and balances against rash and impatient decisions that are easy in a consequence-free environment. The easier these things are to attain, the less permadeath does it's job to lend some measure of weight to your decisions.
Around this time, players organized the great Karma-Off where they encouraged people to strip their magicker karma options and pursue playing mundane roles instead. While I do feel the footprint of the magicker has shrunk since this time, and that the panic created by the news of Armageddon's close has largely dissipated amongst the existing playerbase, I still consider the current models to be inferior in the areas of maintaining a low-magick environment, keeping a sense of mystery around magick in the game, and encouraging the right type of people to select the magicker option (those primarily concerned with the RP and not the power).
Now, I want to state that I'm not aiming at spoiling anyone's fun, or making claims that my vision for the game is the "right" one. I do feel that the current model is more dangerous to the game of Armageddon than some of the alternatives, and that the (somewhat) artificial persistence of universal fear and hatred toward all forms of magick is an unfortunate and, ultimately, harmful trait the game has assumed over the last several years. In my opinion, you'd have to alter the elementalist progression model for the game to properly shift to a different system of checks and balances that doesn't use social exclusion as a counter-balance to power potential.
Again, these are all just my observations and perceptions.
-LoD
Quote from: jriley on June 21, 2010, 03:43:42 PM
There is a significant demographic of players that choose desert elves, halfing PC and magical characters for the very reason that they enjoy either playing alone or in small groups.
My own experience in the last 7 months joining a clan is almost always less interaction. Especially when you're a recruit being isolated in your little outpost/city. Role anything else outside of these restrictions and interact with everybody. The exception to this rule is when you have a very active leader. I'm trying to think and can only think of two instances where the leader logged in regular hours to interact with other players. The rest just logged in when they felt like it. I knew one leader who did about 20 minutes a day whenever they felt like it.
I'm not sure people rolling loners is because they want small groups. They just don't want clan restrictions.
EDIT: Sorry I derailed :\ Just thought I'd correct this.
QuoteWe've "dropped the hammer" before in other clans for other reasons, whether it be via NPC, e-mail, request response, or board post. I have done this myself. What is the point that you are making, and how does it relate to the discussion at hand? Are you saying that there should be more clans that gemmers can be involved in? Is this causing a problem? Is there a void in the game that is not filled due to these changes?
I was just pointing out that 90%++ of the reason the game is towards mages today and the fact that they are all hated almost equally, is staff doing, NOT IC or player driven...at least not to start or for the majority.
As to more clans allowing gemmers, Yes, there should be. As to a void, again, yes, and a very large one. It was closed a tiny bit when the council was in play, but then it was closed and the void became large again.
QuoteI'm not sure how to classify this one, but I'll try. You already know that we do not make any plots (except one) staff-created anymore. We let things develop as influenced by players. This has developed over time. In the past, there was less of an emphasis on player-created plots, but players still had the capacity to do so, and the ability to be involved in staff-created plots. Staff-created or no, players influenced it and were a major part of it (the Cataclysm stories I've written were based on logs, staff wiki information, and staff information about PCs involved). Where should the line be drawn, and is that even an important distinction to make?
Yes, today, and recently, staff has tried to push towards player driven plots or at least ones that can be heavily player influenced. But this is recent.
Even when you talk about back in the day and logs etc, the influence by the players was at best, window dressing. The Building still went as staff planned it. Hell, if it was not for the staff influence in the rebellion, specially the rebellion at luirs, that would have turned out totally different. Since the north was heavily outnumbered PC wise.(alright, the 666 crashes did not help either, but still.)
QuoteMagick and how it affects my PC: I played one PC in a severely anti-magick area of the game. Even PCs that have plots and plans to destroy magickers can still fear them. Even PCs that fear and hate magickers can interact with them in a neutral setting. Even that PC found an occasion to interact with magickers without trying to actively kill them. (one occasion only though)
That is all well and good, so have/do I. But should your PC hate/fear a rukkian the same as they do a sorcerer? I don't think so, and that has been half of my point.
Over all I agree with LoD in that the old model was better.
Quote from: X-D on June 21, 2010, 07:33:48 PM
That is all well and good, so have/do I. But should your PC hate/fear a rukkian the same as they do a sorcerer? I don't think so, and that has been half of my point.
I would agree.
I played in both the old model and the new model. I remember having a 60+ day mage that still did not have all the spells in that grouping. I was also in a certain clan back then that accepted mages. This clan, unfortunately, was shut down. I understand the reasons why, and the frustrations behind the decision, but there were some of us who wanted to work the situation out with the imms and keep the clan going. It served to give mages a societal option back then that was not Allanak or rogue.
That said, I think the hatred and distrust of mages has reached a ludicrous and unbelievable level. Each year that has passed has only worsened the situation beyond the previous year as each instance of the playerbase tries to prove they are playing to the model by simply overdoing the expectations.
I can understand one noble house hating mages. Maybe another distrusting them. Maybe another simply superstitious and fearing them. However, we seem to have created a blanket reaction for all houses, noble and merchant. There was a time when merchant houses were salty. They would deal with halfers, they would deal with mages. They opportunists. Somewhere along the line, the merchant houses badly, BADLY lost their way and somehow developed standards on par with a noble house.
Armageddon pcs are supposed to be this opportunistic because they can't afford to be picky when their ascent to power and their survival is at stake. Refuse the cleanest water you've ever seen in your entire life when you're dying of thirst in the middle of a sandtrap...and the guy next to you will accept it and laugh in your face. That's exactly what the trends of recent years have come across as.
Now...I don't blame the imms or the players. This is a subctultural trend that we all allowed to happen. We forgot the original purpose of having elementalists have a quarter in Allanak. I can assure you, playing back in the day, it was not a cage.
For those of you wondering just how self-destructive the playerbase can really be in the setting just to prove its hatred for mages (not fear, hatred and hatred alone) check out some of the rp logs. One in particular that drew my attention was a log of a motion by the Senate to illegalize mages entirely from Allanak. It took a black robe templar's visit to halt this motion, and the fact that they had to explain to the assembly that, yes, Allanak would buckle under the loss of mages, was a truly a saddening event for me as a player. I realized then that even the best roleplayers had lost foresight and could literally run a city state right into the ground.
Anyway, common sense should have been applied by all of us back then. The unnamed clan that used to take in mages is now, more than ever, sorely missed by those of us who can recall its existence.
Quote from: Intrepid on June 21, 2010, 08:21:20 PM
hatred for mages (not fear, hatred and hatred alone)
THAT is what spurred my comment that apparently got the thread started to begin with. At this point, considering the way they're essentially universally treated where marked, I see death outside the city as preferable to being marked and a life of shit and being bodily and verbally attacked every day for being stupid enough to get marked with a gem.
It HAS become a cage. And if shit IG isn't going to change, I think the magick helpfiles need to be updated to reflect the attitudes of people toward mages, as well as what the gem has become.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on June 21, 2010, 08:26:33 PM
It HAS become a cage. And if shit IG isn't going to change, I think the magick helpfiles need to be updated to reflect the attitudes of people toward mages, as well as what the gem has become.
I actually tried a couple of times to play a gemmer a few years back. Probably the worst mistake I ever made in making a pc, and each time they died, I felt it was euthanasia.
Quote from: Intrepid on June 21, 2010, 08:32:54 PM
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on June 21, 2010, 08:26:33 PM
It HAS become a cage. And if shit IG isn't going to change, I think the magick helpfiles need to be updated to reflect the attitudes of people toward mages, as well as what the gem has become.
I actually tried a couple of times to play a gemmer a few years back. Probably the worst mistake I ever made in making a pc, and each time they died, I felt it was euthanasia.
Any time I've played one that's stayed in the city, it's felt like that. And, truly, the worst gemmed experience I ever, ever had was with House Oash. And it wasn't the players, I love the people who played the characters. It was every other thing about it.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on June 21, 2010, 08:48:13 PM
Any time I've played one that's stayed in the city, it's felt like that. And, truly, the worst gemmed experience I ever, ever had was with House Oash. And it wasn't the players, I love the people who played the characters. It was every other thing about it.
So, I'm going to expound on this a little bit.
I understand that magick is meant to be mysterious, and LoD logically can explain why it's not. That said, the idea of preventing it from being a known factor has come to the point where the magicker factor in plots has been flushed down the toilet; all potential to utilize them, even if you don't like them, has been destroyed via the inevitable increase in utter hatred. So, what could have been a tense deal with the devil is now impossible. Only certain people are expected or even allowed to deal with the mage class of Allanaki society.
Anyone ever see 300? One of my favorite scenes was Leonidas talking to the mystics. He dreaded dealing with these guys, and their description should have set the supersititious on edge. Of course, "on edge" does not mean "homcidal". Leonidas didn't just wack them to pieces. He not only needed their advice, it was expected and required that he get it. Now that's an interesting roleplay scene to me. Unfortunately, it's become convenient to completely eliminate all possible dealings with the underhanded.
When was the last time someone in Allanak dealt with an elven market or tried to acquire something from the elves that was necessary? What about buying a spell when you're neither a Templar or an Oash? What about even dealing with a half-elf that was not part of the Byn?
I think the formula strayed too far out of wack, and it's made dealing with half-elves, elves and magickers obsolete through outright refusal. In doing so, it's eliminated an entire type of storyline from our potential, just to satisfy a paradigm that has to be forced.
I didn't realize it had gotten that bad.
I think I am reacting to the situation that was in effect in late 07 or in 08. When the magickers were all kitted out on the most expensive silks and partying up at the bar.
And I think there should be, yes, enough interaction that people can play a gemmed magicker without wishing they hadn't. Seriously, I didn't know it was that bad.
But it has to stop short of erasing the stigma. There should still be a stigma.
There should, of course, still be a stigma. But the only FEAR I've seen of mages IG other than 2 people who I sent kudos to, is that which I've made in the VNPC population. Although I have to say, most likely a certain NPC set at the entrance to the mages quarter (thereabout) which has echoes about throwing ROCKS probably has a lot to do with new players and their perceptions of how to treat gemmed.
Quote from: Barzalene on June 21, 2010, 09:39:37 PM
But it has to stop short of erasing the stigma. There should still be a stigma.
I like the stigma. However, "stigma" is not what's being played anymore. And it hasn't been for a while now. The thing that gets me is that there has been a lot of work put into detailing the elementalists' quarter, making clothing and tattoos unique to them, creating an atmosphere of what a place would be like that was saturated with magick. However, I think most of it is being wasted. Players who aren't aware of pointless it is to make a non-human mage in Allanak will make one and take the gem, then rot in one of the temples or get killed/arrested in an altercation with, quite frankly, overzealous mundanes. I've tried it myself and watched it happen to others. It's a shame, since that much work gave me the feeling of a subculture in Allanaki society, not a group of castoffs and targets.
...are people really complaining about mages being treated badly? Stop playing them immediately if so.
Quote from: Armaddict on June 21, 2010, 10:11:35 PM
...are people really complaining about mages being treated badly? Stop playing them immediately if so.
Are people hating them for no believable reason? Yes. The answer isn't to eliminate the role.
I, now that I'm listening, am hearing that it's more than treated badly. It's that they're treated so badly that it's not palatable to play a gemmer.
I remember when I started, back in 02 Tor used to have war mages.
And people would go back and forth on whether to bring their dying friend to the vividuan.
But you didn't get chummy with them.
Quote from: Intrepid on June 21, 2010, 10:34:59 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on June 21, 2010, 10:11:35 PM
...are people really complaining about mages being treated badly? Stop playing them immediately if so.
Are people hating them for no believable reason? Yes. The answer isn't to eliminate the role.
No believable reason? Mages, wielding a plethora of deadly abilities while masked by superstitions and assumptions does not count as a believable reason to hate them?
Doesn't that come with the job description?
Quote from: Reiteration on June 21, 2010, 10:49:01 PM
No believable reason? Mages, wielding a plethora of deadly abilities while masked by superstitions and assumptions does not count as a believable reason to hate them?
Doesn't that come with the job description?
What you're referring to should result in fear and mistrust...but the primary emotion being exhibited is hatred to ludicrous level.
Quote from: Intrepid on June 21, 2010, 10:51:53 PM
Quote from: Reiteration on June 21, 2010, 10:49:01 PM
No believable reason? Mages, wielding a plethora of deadly abilities while masked by superstitions and assumptions does not count as a believable reason to hate them?
Doesn't that come with the job description?
What you're referring to should result in fear and mistrust...but the primary emotion being exhibited is hatred to ludicrous level.
I usually hate that which I fear, as it allows me to try to control it instead of slinking away and hiding. I can hate dark places because I fear being trapped inside them, I can hate magickers because I fear being destroyed by them.
This (http://www.armageddon.org/rp/magick/magickfaq.html):
QuoteAnd what about good wine, music, and comfortable clothing? There are people who will endure the prejudice of a city-state in return for having access to the lifestyle and culture it makes available to them.
No longer seems to be accurate. It should be changed. When you are told not to leave the gemmed quarter, if you actually listen to the templar telling you (and yes, more than one has told more than one of my pc gemmed this), then you not only don't have access to wine or music, you only have access to elemental robes.
As only one example.
And this:
QuoteJust because an elementalist in Allanak is treated poorly does not mean they have an overwhelming desire to leave the city. Even slaves in a city-state setting will not leave the city-state when given the opportunity, instead fleeing to the slums or possibly trying to pose as an artisan if they have the skills to do so.
does not equate with mages. Because presumably, a slave can remove its collar. And you are now expected, from (staff placed) NPC echoes, to believe that any time you go in or out of the gemmed Quarter, you are literally having rocks thrown at you.
Leaving that aside, there's also the IC info redacted - Nyr
Kinda makes this:
QuoteOne reason for doing this is a lack of knowledge on the conditions of life outside of the city walls. There are gaj, anakore, gith, and worse out in the desert, and what do they know of such things? The land is covered with people that don't even speak a civilized language like sirihish, how would they communicate with them?
and
QuotePossibly they've traveled, or are from another land, or have gone shadow walking if they're a drovian. They have seen life outside of the city state and don't care for the lawless nature of that life
combined with this:
QuoteWithin the city-state at least the rules are known, and if observed with a great deal of humility, one can expect to live by them.
no longer being true... is a damn good reason to drive magickers out of the city rather than see them gemmed.
A damn good one.
And, again, I'm NOT complaining about things, or saying that they need to be changed. But perhaps the documentation (http://www.armageddon.org/rp/magick/magickculture.html) needs to be adjusted to reflect things more as they ACTUALLY are NOW.
Alright. Let me go more in depth with this then.
First off. I have no idea how this turned into alluding to times when magickers weren't treated badly, aside from those various times where you saw elementalists -everywhere- and where saying one bad word about them resulted in not only them banding up against you, but in their mundane friends jumping in as well. Those times are few and far between. As far as job availability, there have been brief surges of more job availability within Allanak (which is the place where my perspective comes from, FYI. I rarely play in Tuluk.) but those times were just that. Brief. For at least a decade now, gemmed within the city have been not pushed, but herded into jobs with a few select places. You don't -have- to work for them, but they are the ones who make ready use of the gemmed, and through their own relationship with the city, make those gemmed more 'trusted' (though not necessarily better liked). Something changing for six to seven months then going back to what it was does not make that the new norm, that is a deviation. What it returns to is the norm. I can probably count the number of gemmed not in those clans who made a pretty damn good name for themself on two hands, out of those who remained unclanned and in the city.
I have no idea where this concept of increasing hostility comes from. I remember times when groups would assemble to go out and slaughter a troublesome mage (who was known to not be a sorcerer). Lone elementalists in the wastes, particularly those in a vulnerable position, have -long- been in danger of being targeted and taken down by someone confident or foolish enough to do it. That is not -new-. At all. None. That is how it has always been. At least in the past eleven or twelve years that I have played here, and in the southern region of the world.
Socially, I remember times when gemmed mages were taken to a jail and killed, or thrown in the arena, for even -threatening- to use their magick on someone who started shit with them. That's a long far cry from when it briefly became standard to use 'cantrips' to try and scare crowds in the bar, and face no repercussion because no coded spell was cast. Templars have very very very often made it one of their themes to treat the gemmed horribly, and that has come at fairly frequent intervals through the years, only to suffer a complete switch in the other direction once that particular templar dies or retires or whatnot.
So again. I have no idea what you're referring to as 'new' hostility.
You are making a huge assumption, which is that your average commoner will readily and easily know or take the time to know between an elementalist's magick and a sorcerer's magick. Most don't. Most just know that there's something different that makes it so -these- can stay in the city, and -these- can't, and then templars order them to sometimes kill magickers, and sometimes....sometimes, there are these really fucked up ones that are incredibly powerful, do crazy shit, and kill lots of people. That doesn't necessarily mean they distinguish classes, in other words separate a weak drovian from a sorcerer. They're just at different levels of power, for all they know. And those that do know the difference, still really may not care. They get told which ones to leave alone, the others are fair game.
The mere idea of people who play mages consistently demanding that social repercussions of their class be changed because they don't like how they play in the city is ridiculous. If you don't like playing a magicker in the city, don't play one in the city, but you can't complain when a group of hunters sees you out there doing your shit and sees that you're not even acknowledged by their city, and decide to kill you (or try, at least). And demanding all these clans open back up to mages because you want to play in them with your mages is asking for documentation, and the way the world works as a whole, to change because you don't like it anymore. Which is also ridiculous.
So again, I say...if you don't like people treating you badly in cities, please stop playing mages in cities immediately.
Now. On to a couple other things.
First off. 300 analogy. Doesn't work. First off, he knows them to be a farce. Second off, he clearly states the desire to kill, but inability to due to tradition and law (i.e. THEY WEAR A GEM). Third off. He is not on edge, he is clearly disgusted and repulsed and irritated, but not in fear of his life, or of what they can do, or of the power they potentially hold.
Second off. Half-elves and elves. Once again...wtf, -new- hostility? -New- lack of willingness to work? Half-elves haven't been closed out of any clan that they were able to join prior, and still do absolutely fine as independents. I don't see any change whatsoever. Elves? Of course no one wants to deal with them. And the elven mentality loves it. Normally they have to search for their prey, for their scams, and have to manipulate to get things their way. When a roundear comes to them, hating elves but still needing help? Well shit, this scam just got -easy-. That's not new either. And it's far from unplayable, it actually enhances the roles quite nicely.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on June 21, 2010, 11:02:51 PM
everything
I do not mean to directly target this, but I do not feel that this is a fair portrayal. I could break the entire post up and refute everything written, but that will take time and will only result in back and forth with no one feeling good about it. Cherry-picking sections of documentation out of context, exaggerating IC events, and using a current IC problem as the basis for changing documentation--I'll just mention this is not fair, accurate, or helpful at all. This doesn't add to a discussion, it just muddies the water.
As for the other posts about magicker stuff, a lot of responsibility falls on the players on both sides. When you are a mundane, it is easy to take things too far. When you are a magicker, it is easy to take things too far.
Quote(a huge amount of gemmers killed for being gemmers? Really?)
Having done it a fair bit...yeah.
And as far as templars coming down hard on gemmed who start threatening to use their power blatantly, to scare commoners who make an ill remark at them? Yeah. Seen it. Been part of it.
And that's exactly what I'm saying. It's not an IC problem unless it's -always- been an IC problem. Which it very well could be, but seriously? No.
Quote from: Barzalene on June 21, 2010, 10:47:43 PM
And people would go back and forth on whether to bring their dying friend to the vividuan.
I remember when people still used to do this. If they were dying, they -would- fearfully visit the Vivaduan temple, even though it was technically illegal. Some of the brave would even stop by to buy water.
That was in '05. By '07 or '08, visits had dwindled to a trickle (mostly wounded/thirsty militia).
The whole notion of paying gemmed for their services went from common to almost nil in the same period.
Hrm. After rereading, let me reiterate the true point in the ramble.
The hostility isn't new. I'm not saying everyone -needs- to go out gung-ho antimagicker, but I am saying that it has not taking as polarized of a shift as it's being presented as. For however exaggerated you think my post is, I find the posts it responds to just as exaggerated, only in a way that says 'tone it down' where toning is not necessarily needed.
For all its worth...my current character, when encountering mages who cast...panics, and attempts to flee (though usually doesn't leave the room, the scene continues). I've yet to had an aggressive spell cast on me since my return, but he -has- been around casting.
Edited to reply to Nyr:
No no no, not -solely- for being gemmers, within the city. Those are the ones who are marked for toleration. But gemmers who start threatening aggression with their magicks in the midst of rabble, resulting in templars being contacted. What I was referring to was a few times in the distant past where even the ones doing so in defense of themselves were taken and killed or severely punished, just to pound in that unsanctioned magick outside the quarter would not be tolerated.
Where I was talking about them being killed just for wearing a gem was in places where they were vulnerable in lawless areas where toleration was not enforced. Because that has been present over the long term as well. What I was meaning to say was that aggression instead of just a passive loathing has been present in the magicker vs mundane roleplay for a very long time, so I think this assertion of it being a 'new' problem is unfounded and...well...a result of people wanting to play magickers without having to deal with such aggression.
To be more specific on the part I can address on the boards: I will email you with regards to it.
If there's a will to provide the gemmed with more community, a very simple step would go a long way: remove a certain room from the Vivaduan barracks.
The Vivaduans would gravitate back to their temple proper, and resume their old function of serving as a nucleus for the gemmed community to gather around.
Actually, I'm going to remove any references to that. If it did happen then writing about it on the board isn't a good idea. Please don't use IC examples (even if out-of-context or incorrect) to make points about this, thanks.
Magick, and how my char deals with it:
When a playing a mundane char, I tend to stay away from magickers in general. I rarely play the rough, tough, beastly type who can kill things easily, so I tend to fear them, more than hate them. I don't want to be shunned by my real friends, I don't want to get melted, or poisoned, or eaten by a blue, mutant carru they've summoned, and I really don't want people thinking -I'm- a magicker.
However, if one gemmed (and mostly only gemmed) has an ability I can use, such as A) He can poison water, B) summon demonic forces to fight for him, C) make me sexy, and luscious with some kind of soul-warping elixir, for example, I may find uses for them. I might pretend to be his friend so I can get him to poison my friend joe, hire him to get those 'forces' to kill a mek so I can get that badass suit of armor, or, quite possibly, defend him in a relatively small argument, so they'll brew me that sex elixir I need to seduce me Lieutenant.
When playing a magicker, I try and play about 75% of the liberated, I am what I am, magick is natural, and some element favors me tropes, while 25% of them are decent, hard-working commoners struck with this awful, horrible ability. If I play the former, I'll love myself, and decided to fear or distrust, or even outright hate magickers on a case by case basis. When I'm playing the ladder, you're all krath-damned evil, finger-wigglin', poisoning, conniving witches who should be using your powers to serve the Highlord.
Essentially, it comes down to maintaining this mindset:
If you are unable to use magick, then:
People outside (mainly below) your caste, foreigners, people of other races, and merchants will try to scam you, and fuck you up. Some of those said people, like magickers, and those with affiliations be it a reputable House, or a family of scumbags, will succeed.
Magickers, will succeed in much stranger, much more unpredictable, more despicable ways than anyone else, save templars.
People like you, in the same caste, from the same city, and/or the same race, will try less, and succeed even less than that.
Everyone should be hated just a tiny little bit, save those who have proven themselves, because they're all at least thinking about it, or planning it. That's a fact.
If you're playing someone who can use magick:
Exactly as stated before, except those who can use magick will probably fail more often, and try less often, because you're probably lumped into the same caste as them. And templars will try more often instead.
Magick, and how 'someone' deals with it:
In my experience playing, I've seen magick hated, feared, loathed, ridiculed, blessed, praised, worshipped, and envied. I think, at the time, each and everyone of those reactions had a good IC reason behind it. That's about, what, 15% of the world though? Add in the virtual world, and the majority of the reactions I've seen include hating it, open hostility, and fear. Bam, documents, and player actions are still in concert.
In the event of HRPT disasters, this is what I feel happens, and what I feel should happen:
I feel that when disasters like the Flood of Tuluk, or the Fires in Allanak strike, people are more concerned with staying alive, than in singling out who's responsible, and putting an end to the disaster. I think this is the realistic reaction, and is probably going to be most common, but a percentage of you out there should take up the mantle of heroes, and slaughter the entire Krathi temple next time, that way this kind of thing won't happen again. (Remember, you'll be praised) (-humor-)
In all seriousness, I think any commoner would gladly fight a fire elemental beside any other citizen because that threat can be handled later. The burning man chasing you down should be handled immediately.
In an effort to encourage mundane and gicker intergration:
If you hate, or fear a particular ability, it's most likely because you don't have it. Next time you're drinking with your buddies in the Gaj, find that drovian's mind and ask him how much it'd cost to send your buddy Gax into eternal darkness so you can finally get in the sack with his mate. If he ignores you, or gives you any shit, THEN openly hate on him, or be worried he just put a curse on you. I hate politicians, but I use their services all the time.
If you decide you're in the minority of folks who are jealous of them, spend time around them, in private, hoping it'll rub off. If it doesn't, throw a bitch fit. If someone makes fun of you for it, or threatens your friend, go ahead and laugh at them too, and ridicule them as well, because not having powers, and not getting ostracized is better than being alienated and not having powers. Oh, unless of course that super sexy succubi elixir is still in the process of brewing, in which case, weigh your losses, and pick your battles.
That said, I'm not sure if I'm contributing, or what, but that's how I feel about things.
To address replies since I've written this:
I've seen magickers get killed in bars, and I've been one or more of them. With 100% of my chars, I can't be sure why they were killed. Because they're dead. That's it, it's over, there's no investigation afterwards I'm aware about, and being apart of any investigation is a bad idea.
I've only once, ever seen any amount of people be killed in a way I'd describe as huge. The cataclysm that created the moon. That's the only Huge thing I've ever seen.
I've wiitnessed people being killed in bars, yes, but considerably less than I read about in the newspaper, so, that's not even big, or notable by what I feel Zalanthan standards should be. I hope to see the day when at least 5-10 people a week get killed in the Gaj, just because it's that kind of place.
Quote from: Armaddict on June 21, 2010, 11:10:30 PM
Confusion in Armaddict's words.
I understand that you do not understand. I tried to explain earlier and you still seem to not understand, so I'll try to summarize.
The definitions of Fear and Mistrust are not synonymous, meaning they do not share the same meaning, as Homicidal Rage. I get that you don't see it and I understand. Having played in Allanak and seen it, I can state firsthand that it's there. I can also further point you in the direction the forum in various previous posts as a location to see where the playerbase's thoughts lie. Generally, it is ok to beat a mage to death. It's not considered to be out of bounds behavior. The idea that the wrong people in the two primary taverns being there when a mage comes in apparently should result in death to the pc. There are players that will defend any negative reaction to a magicker to the bitter end.
Now that said, after having watched the overreaction and tried to play a gemmer a few years ago, I would never play a mage outside a tribal or a rogue.
But consider for a moment...if their presence is as intolerable as these forum writers are exhibiting, why have them in the world as pcs? Why would the option be there? We once had issues as a mud with iso-clans, but that seems to be the pull for a lot of mages. We should be able to assume that roles are not just kick-me signs for game. Characters allowed into game should be there for interaction and intrigue, not just as targets. What role in Allanak does a dwarven gemmer serve? What clans are they allowed into? What interactions will they have with the playerbase that will make a player want to continue interacting with everyone outside of sheer masochism?
Nothing that I have said so far has been an assumption. You yourself have apparently not seen any of this, and I accept that--even if it is a bit difficult to believe, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. All of my experiences have been from this forum, receiving the treatment firsthand in play and watching it happen to other pcs. If I didn't see it myself in any of these sources, I likely wouldn't have believed it had gone that far either.
So...you've seen successful mages? I've seen countless stories of players who became frustrated and stored, all firsthand, on this forum. But if this is a constant issue, the onus isn't solely on them to not play the role. In fact, that's pretty much an excuse to ignore the issue by making one side of it go away. The fact of the matter is, the issue will still be there and will eventually need to be dealt with. And that issue, very obviously, is playability. Playability is not severe repercussions from looking at a mage cross-eyed, it's expecting that the class be able to interact with the playerbase in the one area they can be allowed in without getting their heads cut off or without starving to death in their temples because they can't survive or getting killed in the wastes because the only way they could make money was by foraging and they became a target for Bloodthirsty Tribe of the Week.
For your response on 300: Sure, he was disgusted. No, he didn't necessarily think they were a farce--that was the narrarator speaking in retrospect and likely long after the mystics were found to be traitors. However, the gem is not a societal expectation in our game--that's the crim code. The gem is a bullseye.
As far as half-elves, I have played my share of half-elves and found a number of merchant houses and organizations unwilling to work with them. As for elves...great? They like being isolated? But then, what's the point of having an iso-clan? How does it interact with the rest of the gameworld?
Also, in regards to ignorance of the commoner: If they don't know what they're dealing with, they should back off rather than attack. As I said before, Fear is not Homicidal Impulses.
So how about we stop telling people to not play city mages and try getting them more into the fabric of the setting?
Quote from: Nyr on June 22, 2010, 12:00:21 AM
Actually, I'm going to remove any references to that. If it did happen then writing about it on the board isn't a good idea. Please don't use IC examples (even if out-of-context or incorrect) to make points about this, thanks.
My apologies. I didn't mean to cross the fine line there. I thought I was being largely vague enough. The email has been sent.
QuoteThe definitions of Fear and Mistrust are not synonymous, meaning they do not share the same meaning, as Homicidal Rage. I get that you don't see it and I understand. Having played in Allanak and seen it, I can state firsthand that it's there. I can also further point you in the direction the forum in various previous posts as a location to see where the playerbase's thoughts lie. Generally, it is ok to beat a mage to death. It's not considered to be out of bounds behavior. The idea that the wrong people in the two primary taverns being there when a mage comes in apparently should result in death to the pc. There are players that will defend any negative reaction to a magicker to the bitter end.
I'm not saying that homicidal rage is first reaction, but it can very easily go there. This is not usually a one-sided dialogue that escalates the farther the mundane speaks. What I am saying is that a gemmed in the past, for the most part, either a. Had a noble or person of authority to contact if things were getting testy, or b. Generally tried to keep a low profile, and with attention, did not goad on the aggression further. I'm not saying that in every scenario they goad it on, either, but that it has happened more frequently than I remember. The hostility was already there, now it's being defended against and inciting a stronger reaction.
In the instance of chance encounters in lawless areas...it's not generally rage, it's desire to eradicate. Which can be strong, yes, but it can also be feasible, just as feasible as those who play someone who trusts and likes a gemmer and believes they're just a victim and wants to be friendly, and so on. If you want to attack one, you should attack the other, as well.
I, for one, often criticize playing the 'exception'. So it should be known I'm not out there playing mage hunters, either.
QuoteFor your response on 300: Sure, he was disgusted. No, he didn't necessarily think they were a farce--that was the narrarator speaking in retrospect and likely long after the mystics were found to be traitors.
The dialogue with his wife later says differently. Either way, this is kind a moot point, I was merely saying it wasn't exactly a pristine example.
QuoteSo...you've seen successful mages? I've seen countless stories of players who became frustrated and stored, all firsthand, on this forum.
That was my point exactly. Just because people play the role in the society and don't like it doesn't mean that it needs to be changed. It means the role may not be cut out for them. Much like I don't like playing merchants, and do not particularly enjoy magickers for these reasons, doesn't mean I think everything is swinging out of wack until it's reversed and I can find enjoyment in it. It means that despite the fact I fucking love arm's magick system, it's not really for me.
QuoteAlso, in regards to ignorance of the commoner: If they don't know what they're dealing with, they should back off rather than attack. As I said before, Fear is not Homicidal Impulses.
How about Glory? Or fear of the city state? Loyalty? Desire to contribute? Hatred? Need to prove themself? Desire to overcome a fear and show their worth? Desire to impress? In wars, friendly fire comes from an immediate reaction to a friendly discharging their weapon, and heroic action often comes from spur of the moment action as well, or a compelling resistance to succumbing to fear or even logic. Sometimes, just because you don't know about something, that doesn't mean you immediately skidaddle. Sometimes they charged that tank and won and got props for it. And if it's against something they view as something inherently evil or questionable in the first place, that's a big bonus.
Quote from: Intrepid on June 22, 2010, 12:03:50 AM
But if this is a constant issue, the onus isn't solely on them to not play the role. In fact, that's pretty much an excuse to ignore the issue by making one side of it go away. The fact of the matter is, the issue will still be there and will eventually need to be dealt with. And that issue, very obviously, is playability. Playability is not severe repercussions from looking at a mage cross-eyed, it's expecting that the class be able to interact with the playerbase in the one area they can be allowed in without getting their heads cut off or without starving to death in their temples because they can't survive or getting killed in the wastes because the only way they could make money was by foraging and they became a target for Bloodthirsty Tribe of the Week.
Intrepid summed up my thoughts quite nicely. Distrust of elves reduced city elves to a single role of a 'rinth rat. The same mindset has been reducing magickers to a single role of 'rogue' magicker.
The question then, is how do you make non-rogue magickers a playable option while preserving some fear/distrust of magickers? I think the best way to do this is to create social incentives for people to play magickers, while perpetuating a social stigma from the mundanes. Make Allanak a place where
players want to play magickers in spite of the fact that their characters are spit and brawled on in the Gaj. Create magicker-only jobs with the templarate, and allow magickers back into noble and merchant houses.
I personally would welcome a course correction or an IG explanation for the mind-bogglingly irrational atmosphere in Allanak. Given the current state of things, the gemmed are Allanak's biggest asset; they should be treated as such by the political powers that be, and the commoner's fear/hate should be laced with resentment because of any special treatment mages receive.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on June 21, 2010, 11:58:57 PM
If there's a will to provide the gemmed with more community, a very simple step would go a long way: remove a certain room from the Vivaduan barracks.
The Vivaduans would gravitate back to their temple proper, and resume their old function of serving as a nucleus for the gemmed community to gather around.
100% + win for gemmers, but on the other side of things???
No. We need a balance. Arm2 is supposed to bring it then bring it on. I just hope our community, staff and players can be productive toward this before it makes people too bitter. Whatever "fix" we have let's pursue it.
I really wouldn't like to see that room removed. If you're really wanting to see RP with them, wait in their temple for 2-3 minutes, rather than spamwalking past with a glance inside it. I've ALWAYS had the temple there filled with magickers 90% of the time when playing a viv. You want to interact with vivs, it's on you to pursue it, not to drive them out of their hidey hole that the other elementalists get. Sorry, but fuck that. If they WANT to interact with you, they will. If they don't, they won't. It's as simple as that.
Bleh, I'll just say this.
Anyone remember the days when the byn would bring along a krathi and a whiran along on a sorcerer hunt?
I would like to see that again. Mages in 'nak should be hired for magical services on a regular basis. With a reasonable tax given to your local templar of course.
Quote from: Jingo on June 22, 2010, 02:34:35 AM
Bleh, I'll just say this.
Anyone remember the days when the byn would bring along a krathi and a whiran along on a sorcerer hunt?
I would like to see that again. Mages in 'nak should be hired for magical services on a regular basis. With a reasonable tax given to your local templar of course.
Do you, really?
Sometimes events like that really start to show that mundanes are cannon fodder for magickers, who use the mundanes as meat shields. I appreciate the place of gemmers and magickers in the game, but I don't think that place is best represented by any organization calling on their assistance. I think even templars should be looked at weirdly by other templars if they're using gemmers for things soldiers can do. And there are some things gemmers can do that soldiers can't, so just leave that to the gemmers.
A few people in this thread have mentioned a lack of job opportunities for gemmers - all I can say is that it should still be possible to find employment other than in House Oash secretly, and it will probably be an enjoyable thing to do that as well. I disagree with the idea that this should be a thing that is aired out to the public. Allanak is "subtle" too, and employing gemmers while not being a typical gemmer-employer has been one of its subtleties for years. It should be hidden, and it sure as hell should be rare.
Quote from: Old Kank
I personally would welcome a course correction or an IG explanation for the mind-bogglingly irrational atmosphere in Allanak. Given the current state of things, the gemmed are Allanak's biggest asset; they should be treated as such by the political powers that be, and the commoner's fear/hate should be laced with resentment because of any special treatment mages receive.
All I can say to this is: old habits die hard. Commoners are thick-headed and won't necessarily sway their opinion towards the positive regarding something they feared and hated before, because their city was devastated. Expect such a change to an outlook on gemmers come about IG, and expect it to be player-driven.
I think there is no staff-side change to the game needed to fix the problems presented in this thread. What is needed is a renewed focus on the documentation with regards to mundane-magicker interactions and changes and clarifications to that documentation if necessary. What is needed is a more driven focus in-game to get the desired effects for individual gemmers or (more complicated) for all gemmers. It is easy to complain about the problems here, but far more difficult (and rewarding) to actually go in game and try to make things make more sense.
Cutthroat, huge difference between '07 when things really got out of control and earlier times where there was perhaps a bit too much trust and sunshine but the gemmers (players if not not always the rest of the playerbase) kept themselves a bit aloof and off balance and didn't seem too proud of themselves.
I remember in the period you're talking about some gemmer (in silks head to toe like a noble) lamented to my pc that she didn't understand why some people didn't seem to want to be friends with her.
I (if you look back to the start) am shifting positions here a little, having been persuaded, largely by Intrepid, that some, more ease of interaction could be warranted.
Some. Not a free for all. Not the happy huggy Utopian kind. Just something so the role of gemmer doesn't suck completely.
The other side of that though is that no matter how many pc gemmers there are in the city, I don't want to -see- magick. I need those players playing them to remember that they are a hated minority. Yes. Hated. And yes feared.
I'm inclined to agree. I think there should be interaction between gemmers/magickers in general and mundanes, besides "ahaha, you die now". I think that the docs already allow for that, and it's up to players on both sides of the aisle to stick to it and do what's necessary to self-enforce what the documentation calls for. I think that if the docs are unclear in any way, then that should be brought up here.
I remember not too long ago how people were complaining about characters being too chummy with gemmers.
I remember before that people complaining about how gemmers were too hated/isolated and it wasn't fun to play them.
I remember before that how people were complaining that gemmers were too common and people were being chummy and unafraid of them.
I remember before THAT how gemmers were too heavily stigmatized and completely unfun to play.
I remember before THAT... well, hopefully you all get the point.
Simmer down, people. This is a natural cycle of Armageddon. Before long it'll swing back the other way.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on June 22, 2010, 11:15:50 AM
I remember not too long ago how people were complaining about characters being too chummy with gemmers.
I remember before that people complaining about how gemmers were too hated/isolated and it wasn't fun to play them.
I remember before that how people were complaining that gemmers were too common and people were being chummy and unafraid of them.
I remember before THAT how gemmers were too heavily stigmatized and completely unfun to play.
I remember before THAT... well, hopefully you all get the point.
Simmer down, people. This is a natural cycle of Armageddon. Before long it'll swing back the other way.
I remember before people needed to complain about elementalists being chummy
or hated. I'd like to see that cycle back.
-LoD
Everyone seems to feel that Arm was at it's best/most balanced earlier in their career (probably around their 1-2 years playing period). :P
Really, though, I think much of the time things are balanced. It's just that during those times people don't make noisy threads complaining about it.
Let's look at some other cycles that I suspect are between peaks at the moment:
North vs. South population - How is it now? Does one city have significantly more players than the other, or is it even for the moment?
Half-elf/elf population/hate - Too much? Too little? I haven't seen any threads about them lately.
Slumming/haughty nobles - Do they hang out in the Gaj too much? Or are they too isolated to be fun?
You know what? I'm tired of people going off on how (by the way, I stopped reading after a while) how this game is supposed to be low-magick. Where do you get that? It's supposed to be low-fantasy, which is a completely different term. In a world that used to be a lush paradise but is now a desert because of magick, with all the magickal wackidoo that's in the history, and you want to call this game low-magick? It's not. It's low-fantasy because we're not playing Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas but some other guys that may not be heroes. That is what defines low-fantasy, that you're not following the heroes. It's fantasy, but you're not following some epic.
I'm fine with how magickers work now. I still believe some improvement can be made to how they are integrated into or used by society.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on June 22, 2010, 11:49:35 AM
Everyone seems to feel that Arm was at it's best/most balanced earlier in their career (probably around their 1-2 years playing period). :P
Really, though, I think much of the time things are balanced. It's just that during those times people don't make noisy threads complaining about it.
I don't feel that Arm was at it's best/most balanced earlier in my career. I think many aspects of the game
are better balanced now, and that there are certainly cyclical trends in player population/distribution, FOTM race/class combinations (often fueled by specific clan recruitment or chance), and other such trends.
The integration of universal fear and hatred toward all-things-magick, however, was not a trend. It was a very deliberate choice sparked by a very deliberate event. The only cycling has been between the narrow poles it's provided over the last 12 years. And the cycle has always been a measure of fear -- "People aren't hating/fearing magickers enough." -- "People are hating/fearing magickers too much." It's really not the same thing as play distributions between cities or player distributions through class/race combos.
The crux of what I and people like Old Kank want is not to abolish the fear and mistrust of magick, but to increase the amount of options magickal characters (especially elementalists) have to simultaneously employ their skills and interact with the mundane player base. There
should be a stigma attached to being a magicker, but that stigma should be allowed to vary between the type of magick being employed or used.
Sorcerers should be the sole recipient of wholesale fear, mistrust and hatred by the general populace. They should be treated like a plague carrier that threatens to destroy your entire civilization if they're allowed to integrate into your society.
Elementalists should have lower levels of fear and mistrust. They should be treated more like people treat rats. Some people fear rats because they
can be a carrier of disease and they do choose to eradicate them whenever they are found (i.e. Tuluk). Some people dislike rats and yelp and scurry away whenever they see them because they are an oddity and rumored to be unclean. (General Populace). Some people use rats as tools for testing, research, or study in controlled environments. (Allanak Employers). And some people keep rats as pets and treat them as friends and companions, having overcome the stigma normally associated with them. (Individual Choice)
Unconditional friendship toward a magicker should be as rare as feeling homicidal rage toward one. There are certainly solutions out there to make unrealistic use/abuse of magick in friendly situations a moot issue, which would remove the necessity to impose artificial barriers between more frequent mundanes/elementalist fraternization and cooperation.
-LoD
QuoteSorcerers should be the sole recipient of wholesale fear, mistrust and hatred by the general populace. They should be treated like a plague carrier that threatens to destroy your entire civilization if they're allowed to integrate into your society.
Elementalists should have lower levels of fear and mistrust. They should be treated more like people treat rats. Some people fear rats because they can be a carrier of disease and they do choose to eradicate them whenever they are found (i.e. Tuluk). Some people dislike rats and yelp and scurry away whenever they see them because they are an oddity and rumored to be unclean. (General Populace). Some people use rats as tools for testing, research, or study in controlled environments. (Allanak Employers). And some people keep rats as pets and treat them as friends and companions, having overcome the stigma normally associated with them. (Individual Choice)
OMG, spot on I'd say.
I see where it's going, but I think the rat metaphor is better for half-elves, elves or rinthis. Rats aren't really mysterious or powerful, and treating them like rats suggests they are vermin of a lower class (fine for some castes, but generally commoners are fully aware elementalists are more powerful than then, being one of the reasons they hate them so much). I'll carry this on at some point but have to run... bear in mind it's constructive criticism! ;D
Treat gemmed magickers like gemmed magickers. Spit on them if you have a mind to. Be nice to them if you want to do that, as well. Fear them. Hate them. It's your choice. Figure it out for yourself and everyone will probably benefit. It's not wrecking someone's life if you decide to give that magicker a drink, or a punch, or a sneer, or an uncomfortable glance away. RP what your character would do.
Exactly, people simply need to interact more with elementalists. The problem seems to be people not interacting at all because they feel they shouldn't. It's only when people actually do interact that all this role playing stuff we keep talking about actually happens!
While I probably don't know enough about the current IC situation to really comment on it, I can say that one of my most favourite PCs ever was a recent gemmed mage, and in house Oash. I really don't understand the Anti-Oash sentiments expressed by you, Amanda. It was close to being my very best clan experience to date.
I also don't understand the calls for change, I had a blast with my gemmed. Even after most of the people she hung out with stored / stopped logging in - at times she was so lonely she considered paying her favourite food provider a large just for pleasant company - I still had tons of fun. And there was still interaction to be found, I saved some blisteringly awesome logs from those. Later on, with more social PCs, I sometimes missed being able to play Armageddon semi afk and work for uni at the same time.
Of course, I had to do a lot of solo RP. But I was aware of this when I decided to return to the game with a gemmed mage PC. I was not looking for a social role, but rather something else, and I got that. Many of my HOLY SHIT!!!11!! moments that really showed me how awesome this game is can be related to that character.
Anyone who does not enjoy the possible social isolation of the gemmed mage role is free to play something else. :) I kind of like how mages are less present in the mundane world lately, a more rare sight, like they are supposed to be. It makes the world feel more real to me.
Quote from: Akaramu on June 22, 2010, 02:32:16 PM
I also don't understand the calls for change, I had a blast with my gemmed.
You were in House Oash. None of my gemmers managed in getting in. Consider your experience the exception.
Quote from: janeshephard on June 22, 2010, 03:07:09 PM
You were in House Oash. None of my gemmers managed in getting in. Consider your experience the exception.
My other 2 gemmed who tried to join didn't get in either. They were still fun to play. That was before the recent economy changes, and I can see how gemmed survival without clan might be more frustrating now... but isn't this true for unclanned mundanes, as well? You're not guaranteed to get a job, and you might not make any friends willing or able to help out.
Alright. So. It occurs to me that these threads actually behave in much the same manner as in the game. The whole mage/mundane thing gets out of whack, which it tends to do, and the opposite end reacts to the extreme to counteract the perceived opposite extreme. I'm guilty of it, out of that need to feel the balance. But we aren't actually finding the balance.
It seems that there are basic 'schools of thought' so far as the issue goes, which are (loosely):
1. Make the game mage friendly. Everyone should be able to play a magicker and enjoy it.
2. The social setting is fine, but people need to keep interactions going (whether they be positive or negative) to keep the game going.
3. Mages are a powerful role that needs to be tempered by IC barriers, which is the accurate negative roleplay towards that role from the majority of mundane roles.
Of those, just with my own temperament, I lean towards 3, but can find 2 to be the 'healthy balance'. It does, however, require that things don't get polarized to either 1 or 3, which is difficult since any perceived 'lean' to those sides will make those who disagree with it react to their own extreme. Which is what needs to be stopped. So while I say hostility is a plausible response, it shouldn't be standard response. While friendship is a plausible response, it shouldn't be standard response. I believe mages should choose an elementalist class -knowing and expecting- social barriers and plenty of random negative interactions, plus some surprising positive ones.
My model would be like the movie Powder (I think this analogy has been made before, and I like it.) In this movie, the kid is 'the freak' or 'abomination'. The general consensus is that he's weird, and he gets looks, gets stiff treatment, and is generally looked down on, but it is not openly hostile. He has a few people who have had the chance to know him, believe in him, and support him. On rare and extreme circumstance, they defend him from the third group, which is also a small group, but who are openly hostile. They jab. They harass. Hostility is present, all the time, but in small doses.
This is average treatment. After a -display- of what he can do, everything erupts (which would be why public magick is made illegal). More people are outraged, but also have their own misunderstanding. They are aggressive to what they don't know. They group together against it. Powder still has his friends, who do what they can, but it's made difficult by the social turmoil.
There will always be variances, but I'd hope they remain small. The above, however, has a balance between positive and negative, with the fear and distrust omnipresent, and the spiked reactions to exposure to what can't be understood well. So yeah, that's my platform.
Side Issue! Employment!
This is actually skirting the issue the thread was really about, brought about as proof of the 'new' hostility and unmanageable state of mages. And honestly...I don't think this should change. Finding full, steady work for a mage is hard due to the social stigma, and I think it should stay that way. Independent contracted work might yield results, as well as all out independent starting of their own business. However, by and large, the best options are for the two clans in the south that make use of mages, and then the various groups who would make use of them if they 'retreat' to a place where they are more free...but also more vulnerable. I think you understand where that would be.
The main problem I see with that, however...is that those clans have to remain -active-, very active. There needs to be things to do. Oash should be politicking and using its resources to aid in that politicking. Not as in direct intimidation, but they can be incredibly involved and valuable if they use those resources right, without -ever- angering anyone over how they use it. It's just kept secretive, so that the average mundane never even knows they are depending on a mage's information or help, or else they may waiver in their trust of the cause/mission. The Arm, on the other hand...warmages. This is where they go. It's...harder to balance here, because I don't see them being used -every single time- a unit goes out, or the mundane loses confidence in their own necessity. But they should still be the active employer of those types. It enhances their own capabilities, while offering the control of the templarate directly as something to trust in.
Other clans will generally have a hard time opening it up for mages aside from in secretive deals. Simply because of the dependence on the public view of them, which can't be allowed to falter or they lose standing, rapport, and ability.
Better than the rambles before?
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on June 22, 2010, 12:54:21 AM
I really wouldn't like to see that room removed. If you're really wanting to see RP with them, wait in their temple for 2-3 minutes, rather than spamwalking past with a glance inside it. I've ALWAYS had the temple there filled with magickers 90% of the time when playing a viv. You want to interact with vivs, it's on you to pursue it, not to drive them out of their hidey hole that the other elementalists get. Sorry, but fuck that. If they WANT to interact with you, they will. If they don't, they won't. It's as simple as that.
Frankly, I hate that room. Its description has ridiculously posh elements and its location makes no sense. Regardless, the Vivaduans are welcome to stay in their hidey holes if they want. What they do get is a "screening function" that the other temples don't get. That's what should be eliminated.
Maybe other people are willing to pursue Vivaduans they don't even know (since they never get to see them). My characters will just assume that if they don't come outside, they don't want to be bothered, and walk past every time. Too bad.
EDIT: And no community.
Quote
Sometimes events like that really start to show that mundanes are cannon fodder for magickers, who use the mundanes as meat shields. I appreciate the place of gemmers and magickers in the game, but I don't think that place is best represented by any organization calling on their assistance. I think even templars should be looked at weirdly by other templars if they're using gemmers for things soldiers can do. And there are some things gemmers can do that soldiers can't, so just leave that to the gemmers.
I think I'll point out that one of the highest ranked noble houses employs the gemmed on a regular basis, and is still able to command respect among the other noble houses. So I wouldn't expect other templars to look at templars that use them oddly. Especially since they're so useful every time another wave of big baddies attacks or when there's trouble outside of the city.
I would agree with Salt Merchant: The suspense is over. Yes, you the commoner know that magickers are useful. You don't have to like them. No one's said that the commoner can't hold on to their precious hatred of magickers. That said, telling a templar or a noble who they can or can't employ should result in your tongue being removed. Telling a merchant house who they can or can't employ should result in raucous laughter; remember, these are orgs that exist in both city-states, even in Red Storm and outlying areas. They are not voted in by commoners and they have more money currently in their pockets than you will ever see.
The issue becomes that Arm is about low resources and scrambling for an edge over your competition. If you're suddenly "above" using a certain tool, you've just broken the immersion level as much as you would if an elf was riding a kank. Yes, you don't like magickers. That's fine. But to refuse to use the tools at your command? It should be suicide.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on June 22, 2010, 04:49:17 PM
I think I'll point out that one of the highest ranked noble houses employs the gemmed on a regular basis, and is still able to command respect among the other noble houses. So I wouldn't expect other templars to look at templars that use them oddly. Especially since they're so useful every time another wave of big baddies attacks or when there's trouble outside of the city.
Yes, and the Allanaki templarate and House Oash retain their own force of mundane employees for a reason. My point was that reliance on the gemmed by groups you wouldn't expect to use them (and, in comparison, over-reliance on gemmed by the groups you would expect to use them) does nothing but exclude the mundane population that is supposed to be assigned difficult (and entertaining for the player, hopefully) tasks as well. I know as a mundane minion player I would start to resent the fact that the mages are being given more to do than I am, because I actually experienced that. Use them, but why use them for everything? Why put them at unnecessary risk if they are so useful?
It is valid to assess one of the perceived problems in this thread from that point of view and figure out whether the decreased, unvarying interaction between mundanes and magickers that some people are complaining about in this thread (that leads to everyone getting killed on sight regardless of actual power or potential) actually stems from other occurrences in the game.
So... wait... hold on. You want that one lush and awesome room removed because of your OOC desire to have the vivaduans on the ground floor, where the room description describes it being unpleasant to be there? Maybe you should seek, in an IC manner, a means to make the ground floor less unpleasant. (Read the room descriptions people.) And since when is the vivaduan gemmers' function to be a nucleus for everyone else to glom on to? That's just what may or may not happen at one time or another.
Quote from: spawnloser on June 22, 2010, 05:16:54 PM
So... wait... hold on. You want that one lush and awesome room removed because of your OOC desire to have the vivaduans on the ground floor, where the room description describes it being unpleasant to be there? Maybe you should seek, in an IC manner, a means to make the ground floor less unpleasant. (Read the room descriptions people.) And since when is the vivaduan gemmers' function to be a nucleus for everyone else to glom on to? That's just what may or may not happen at one time or another.
Agreed. There is a reason those rooms are the way they are. Hate to use a cliche but "be the change you want to see" if you want to change the Vivaduan Temple or any other area in any way.
Quote from: spawnloser on June 22, 2010, 05:16:54 PM
So... wait... hold on. You want that one lush and awesome room removed because of your OOC desire to have the vivaduans on the ground floor, where the room description describes it being unpleasant to be there? Maybe you should seek, in an IC manner, a means to make the ground floor less unpleasant. (Read the room descriptions people.) And since when is the vivaduan gemmers' function to be a nucleus for everyone else to glom on to? That's just what may or may not happen at one time or another.
It was never their explicit function, but it was their effective function for a long time, and it worked well. That room appeared after the big announcement of 2006, even, when we'd been told no more building. #$%*!
Quote from: Nyr on June 21, 2010, 08:20:05 PM
Quote from: X-D on June 21, 2010, 07:33:48 PM
That is all well and good, so have/do I. But should your PC hate/fear a rukkian the same as they do a sorcerer? I don't think so, and that has been half of my point.
I would agree.
I politely disagree with both of you. Given that your average PC is an illiterate/superstitious commoner, I don't anticipate that your average PC will know enough about magic to tell the difference between an elementalist or a sorcerer, or even between the different types of elementalists.
Obviously, many players are going to disagree with me for the reason that these sorts of things are spelled out pretty clearly in the docs. I don't think that your average character knows everything that's in the docs. For example, things like hitpoints are described in the game docs. Does my character know what hitpoints are? It's game mechanics.
Expecting your average (superstitious/illiterate) PC to know the difference between a sorcerer and a Rukkian is like expecting your average Tea Party member to know the difference between a Trotskyist and a Stalinist.
While I do think that your average commoner PC can force themselves to stand in the same room as a spell-caster given sufficient motivation, I don't think that they could do so without sweating nervously. I happen to think it's a perfectly understandable reaction for commoners to loose their shit and run when they see a spell-caster, even if the spell-caster presents no obvious threat.
Actually your average commoner *Allanak* citizen would definitely know the difference. They have an entire quarter dedicated to the elementalist temples.
The average Tuluki would probably not only not know the difference, but wouldn't care whether or not there is one. The average Tuluki commoner citizen would fear/loathe/hate all magicks equally, because all magicks are equally illegal in Tuluk.
Elsewhere, people might, or might not know, depending on the kind of exposure they've had to the different types.
It is known pretty universally, that sorcerers are the ones who cause ash. They are commonly known as ashlayers, ashbringers, etc. It is also pretty well known that not all magickers lay ash, therefore, not all magickers are sorcerers. And by extension, they would know that there -is- a difference - even if they're not sure what that difference is.
And to go a bit farther on that.
In allanak it is WELL known that elementalists are gemmed. That Sorcerers are not. Even if a southerner knows nothing at all about magick, they would know that.
What the two above me said. I would like to say again, and I believe others have said so in the past, the entire known world does not view magick exactly the same as the citizens of Tuluk. Some people seem to be stuck on this belief for some reason.
Quote from: jriley on June 22, 2010, 06:42:50 PM
I happen to think it's a perfectly understandable reaction for commoners to loose their shit and run when they see a spell-caster, even if the spell-caster presents no obvious threat.
For the record, there are gemmed NPCs in Allanak outside the Elementalists' Quarter. I really don't think that people would "lose their shit and run" every time they pass a gemmed mage in the bazaar, because if those NPCs are any indication, then it happens all the time in the life of an average Allanaki.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on June 22, 2010, 05:29:00 PMQuote from: spawnloser on June 22, 2010, 05:16:54 PMSo... wait... hold on. You want that one lush and awesome room removed because of your OOC desire to have the vivaduans on the ground floor, where the room description describes it being unpleasant to be there? Maybe you should seek, in an IC manner, a means to make the ground floor less unpleasant. (Read the room descriptions people.) And since when is the vivaduan gemmers' function to be a nucleus for everyone else to glom on to? That's just what may or may not happen at one time or another.
It was never their explicit function, but it was their effective function for a long time, and it worked well. That room appeared after the big announcement of 2006, even, when we'd been told no more building. #$%*!
Effective function? I maintain that it was a function those CHARACTERS took on themselves. Even after the internal room was added and the downstairs became unpleasant, I've seen vivaduans that still take on that role. I see no problem.
Quote from: Lizzie on June 22, 2010, 06:49:07 PM
Actually your average commoner *Allanak* citizen would definitely know the difference. They have an entire quarter dedicated to the elementalist temples.
The average Tuluki would probably not only not know the difference, but wouldn't care whether or not there is one. The average Tuluki commoner citizen would fear/loathe/hate all magicks equally, because all magicks are equally illegal in Tuluk.
Elsewhere, people might, or might not know, depending on the kind of exposure they've had to the different types.
It is known pretty universally, that sorcerers are the ones who cause ash. They are commonly known as ashlayers, ashbringers, etc. It is also pretty well known that not all magickers lay ash, therefore, not all magickers are sorcerers. And by extension, they would know that there -is- a difference - even if they're not sure what that difference is.
I generally have my Allanakki citizens mostly refer to elementalists by their 'correct' names like Rukkian or Krathi. I like it because it adds to the identity of those characters. As for people from other places, I get creative. Flame-spewing hell-wiggler, for example.
Quote from: spawnloser on June 23, 2010, 02:54:14 AM
I see no problem.
Maybe you see no problem, but gatherings in the Vivaduan temple are far, far less frequent than they used to be. That's a simple, irrefutable fact. Whether or not you think it would be unfair to remove or change that room, that's the effect that putting it in has had on the gemmed experience.
You point out that the temple proper has an unpleasant environment. That's true. It's just another factor contributing to a lack of community and social choice for the gemmed.
I'd say another issue is that Oash divides the gemmed community even further. The Oashi mages tend to be aloof of (or even hostile/suspicious toward) non-Oashi mages. They have other places to be than the Elementalist's Quarter. Also, I believe it's common knowledge that Oash destroyed the Council, again removing a vehicle of interaction between gemmed.
It's like every change has been made with the intent of isolating independent gemmed as much as possible. And all of these are relatively recent.
EDIT: Maybe people would say the solution is to go join Oash then. However, they don't take non-human or semi-human mages, and often they don't even take human applicants (reason unknown). Nor does everyone want to join that particular situation either.
EDIT: By the way, this is not a complaint. I'm resigned now to the gemmed being mainly suitable to casual play. It's just interesting to dissect the problem.
I never really thought that people -not- hanging out in the vivaduan temple -was- a problem in the first place. In fact, just the opposite: I never understood why any krathi would -want- to hang out in the vivaduan temple. Or elkrans. or even Drovians for that matter. I don't understand why vivaduans would -want- krathis or elkrans in their temple. It sounds like some people get the feeling that gemmers are all supposed to be pals, just because they're all magickers. The idea of that is ridiculous and further, the documentation flies against that notion. There are some elements that might naturally be drawn together, or work well together, or at least, not be repulsed by the other. There are elements that are naturally repulsed by each other. To even consider that they should all hang out in the same temple of one of those elements is just silly and if they're not doing it currently, I'm glad to hear it.
Quote from: Lizzie on June 22, 2010, 06:49:07 PM
Actually your average commoner *Allanak* citizen would definitely know the difference. They have an entire quarter dedicated to the elementalist temples.
The average Tuluki would probably not only not know the difference, but wouldn't care whether or not there is one. The average Tuluki commoner citizen would fear/loathe/hate all magicks equally, because all magicks are equally illegal in Tuluk.
Elsewhere, people might, or might not know, depending on the kind of exposure they've had to the different types.
It is known pretty universally, that sorcerers are the ones who cause ash. They are commonly known as ashlayers, ashbringers, etc. It is also pretty well known that not all magickers lay ash, therefore, not all magickers are sorcerers. And by extension, they would know that there -is- a difference - even if they're not sure what that difference is.
I think you and I disagree on the specifics, but we do agree that not all of our characters are intimately familiar with the magic system.
However, I think you're mistaken that Northerners dislike magic because it's illegal. They dislike magic because it melts babies.
Stealing is legal in the North but that doesn't mean they like being robbed. They hate that to. Commoners dislike all magic because as far as they know, all magic melts babies.
Quote from: Spice Spice Baby on June 22, 2010, 10:39:11 PM
For the record, there are gemmed NPCs in Allanak outside the Elementalists' Quarter. I really don't think that people would "lose their shit and run" every time they pass a gemmed mage in the bazaar, because if those NPCs are any indication, then it happens all the time in the life of an average Allanaki.
Fair enough. I'm not saying that
all characters run
every time that they see a magicker. Rather, I'm saying that your character would understand if one of their friends ran at the mere presence of a magicker. After all, you feel like running but you're too disciplined to do it.
***
Back to the original topic, I think that there is a fairly easy way for most characters to develop the discipline to interact with spell-casters in a dignified way. Why not join one of the Major Houses? My guess is that if you served in one of the Merchant Houses or in House Borsail or something, you'd not only have semi-frequent interaction with gemmers (if only as customers if not clanmates) but also you'd log frequent travel, as well as significant interaction with educated people. I believe that these qualities would help ameliorate the problems of being an uneducated, superstitious peasant if you really didn't want to play one. Really, a year in any of the Major Houses should be enough to encourage a cosmopolitan viewpoint.
Quote from: Lizzie on June 23, 2010, 11:11:17 AM
It sounds like some people get the feeling that gemmers are all supposed to be pals, just because they're all magickers. The idea of that is ridiculous and further, the documentation flies against that notion.
People naturally chose who they want to hang out with, and having one thing in common, such as working in the same job, doesn't necessarily play a huge role.
jriley, you overlooked the word "equally" from the quote you took on my post. They hate magicks *equally* because all magicks are *equally* illegal. There is no differentiation, in Tuluk, between one type of magicks or another. They are all EQUALLY illegal and therefore EQUALLY hated/feared.
I never said, or implied, or hinted that the reason they were feared, was that it was illegal. That would be silly.
Quote from: Akaramu on June 23, 2010, 07:33:18 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on June 23, 2010, 11:11:17 AM
It sounds like some people get the feeling that gemmers are all supposed to be pals, just because they're all magickers. The idea of that is ridiculous and further, the documentation flies against that notion.
People naturally chose who they want to hang out with, and having one thing in common, such as working in the same job, doesn't necessarily play a huge role.
People choose their friends from among those who are willing to be friendly.
Take the population of Allanak. Subtract basically everyone except the gemmed. Who is left?
Often a gemmed can only find friends among the gemmed.
I'm not talking about being friendly with another gemmed. I'm talking about a humanoid electrode or flaming torch going to hang out in a place built for humanoid water puddles. Whether or not they'd be friends is not the issue. Whether or not they'd hang out together specifically in the Vivaduan temple, is.
It is relevant to the topic which is, "how does my character deal with magick?" My Elkran, will not deal with a vivaduan, in the vivaduan temple, unless my Elkran has some dire need to be in that specific temple. My Vivaduan, would not make efforts to welcome a Krathi in the temple, unless that Krathi had specific need of a Vivaduan's services. If my Vivaduan was pals with a Krathi, there are plenty of "element-neutral" places for them to hang out together. Same as my Elkran would deal with a Vivaduan who was a buddy.
Quote from: Lizzie on June 23, 2010, 08:15:21 PMIt is relevant to the topic which is, "how does my character deal with magick?" My Elkran, will not deal with a vivaduan, in the vivaduan temple, unless my Elkran has some dire need to be in that specific temple. My Vivaduan, would not make efforts to welcome a Krathi in the temple, unless that Krathi had specific need of a Vivaduan's services. If my Vivaduan was pals with a Krathi, there are plenty of "element-neutral" places for them to hang out together. Same as my Elkran would deal with a Vivaduan who was a buddy.
But other people are allowed to play their characters differently, right?
Quote from: Akaramu on June 23, 2010, 07:33:18 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on June 23, 2010, 11:11:17 AM
It sounds like some people get the feeling that gemmers are all supposed to be pals, just because they're all magickers. The idea of that is ridiculous and further, the documentation flies against that notion.
People naturally chose who they want to hang out with, and having one thing in common, such as working in the same job, doesn't necessarily play a huge role.
Actually, people frequently make friends through chance and easy acquaintances rather than choice. You almost always meet someone because you share common ground, whether that be colleagues at a workplace, a circle of friends, people who share your hobby, or neighbors that live next door. Very rarely do people actively pursue someone who is not their friend and make an effort to befriend them without first being introduced through one of these common social circles.
That would make it fairly common and logical for Allanaki elementalists, whom have more in common with one another through geography, persecution, and innate magickal ability than they do with any mundane, to more easily form relationships with one another over and above mundanes.
-LoD
Quote from: LoD on June 24, 2010, 12:59:05 AM
That would make it fairly common and logical for Allanaki elementalists, whom have more in common with one another through geography, persecution, and innate magickal ability than they do with any mundane, to more easily form relationships with one another over and above mundanes.
-LoD
Of course, but I am argueing against the viewpoint that all gemmed are expected to be pals and should hang out in the Vivaduan temple. Some gemmed might be as racist with the gem as they were without it, and refuse to hang out with halfbreeds and elves still, gem or not. Or they simply don't like people. Or they are too busy with out of city stuff to socialize in Allanak. Or they prefer the company of rogue mages. Or...
I don't think all gemmers should be pals, but I think the vast majority of a gemmer's friends will be other gemmers.
Never played a gemmed before....
But I'd imagine the Vivaduan temple to (literally) be the local watering hole for the elementalist quarters.....
Why would my krathi or elkrosian go the the viv temple?!
Because there's the potential for free effing water, that's why.
Just my two cents....
-shrug-
If there was enough of an established community for gemmed characters and enough to do, they might not have to consistently resort to chumming with their opposite element out of sheer goshdarned loneliness. You get the same problem with 'rinthis, half-elves, and that terribly bored nobles' guard at the bar. Soloing is well and good, but sometimes folks want to interact.
My Rukkian has hung out in almost every temple. Mostly because he'sfriends with the other gemmed. My gemmed has been feared, hated, loved, respected, and everything in between. From normal people.
It comes down to the players, and how you rp the charecters, and that's the reaction you get.