Armageddon General Discussion Board

So simple as the thread says. Should these two be combined to make one 'thief' class?

One would combine the art of breaking in and stealing into one guild.

This would give 'thief' characters a wide-range of things they could do instead of say the one thing, that each class is good at either way.

Just thought would be good discussion to throw up on a slow morning.


Adding: Please for the love of christ do not simply poll vote, explain and discuss!

I vote yes. I see no need for the two guilds to exist separately. As it stands, one can already play a burglar as a pickpocket and have more options to fall back on. The only real difference is a burglar cannot become as good at picking pockets in the long run. I say put them together into one "thief" guild and then if people want to play a thief pc, they can use one guild and play it either way, or a combination of both. Which is plenty realistic.

I see 5 yes, and no comments.  :'(

Yes. In fact, I suggested several times in the past that they be merged.

I think the combined class could be easily balanced with assassins/rangers given the right combination of starting/branched skills. My specific thoughts are that the class should at least start with a semi-competent steal and peek (just as rangers start semi-competent a few skills), and make pick a branched skill.

Pickpockets should be more common. Breaking-and-entering thieves should be rarer. I think this would accomplish that.

What Hyzenhok said, plus the following: possible to stealthily open doors, a successful pick doesn't break hide, and if you are not successfully hidden while picking a lock and in a crime-flagged area, you are wanted.

Quote from: a strange shadow on April 21, 2010, 12:38:21 PM
What Hyzenhok said, plus the following: possible to stealthily open doors, a successful pick doesn't break hide, and if you are not successfully hidden while picking a lock and in a crime-flagged area, you are wanted.

Yes. Yes.

A way to stealthily open doors.
A successful pick does not break hide.
And wanted spot.


Those are awesome.

Obviously.  :D

I voted no.

This would be the ultimate griefing guild.  Not only that, a burglar/pickpocket combination would basically be a soloist who never needed help from anyone, for anything mundane.  If you combined the two guilds, the resulting guild would have every non-crafting city-type skill in the game, and would be quite dangerous in combat, to boot.

Quote from: Synthesis on April 21, 2010, 01:08:54 PM
I voted no.

This would be the ultimate griefing guild.  Not only that, a burglar/pickpocket combination would basically be a soloist who never needed help from anyone, for anything mundane.  If you combined the two guilds, the resulting guild would have every non-crafting city-type skill in the game, and would be quite dangerous in combat, to boot.

Obviously a straight up merge wouldn't be so hot. I would recommend taking out a lot of the skills that pickpockets/burglars have that overlap with assassins. They would probably not get backstab and sap. They would probably not get every single perception skill. But the resulting class would be robust enough not to need those things.

As it is now, they are unnecessarily overspecialized, and frankly I think that's only so there's a class that is balanced to start with pick, which IMO we can afford to get rid of.

But there isn't any glaring problem with either burglars or pickpockets, other than the fact that people obviously don't know how to play them successfully.

I get the feeling that this thread is like people crying that warriors aren't good enough because they keep dying to gith.

Quote from: Synthesis on April 21, 2010, 01:20:41 PM
But there isn't any glaring problem with either burglars or pickpockets, other than the fact that people obviously don't know how to play them successfully.
I get the feeling that this thread is like people crying that warriors aren't good enough because they keep dying to gith.

I've played both successfully. So rather not have a thread I made be labeled as such.

Simply a discussion here, no need for that.

Quote from: Synthesis on April 21, 2010, 01:20:41 PM
But there isn't any glaring problem with either burglars or pickpockets, other than the fact that people obviously don't know how to play them successfully.

I get the feeling that this thread is like people crying that warriors aren't good enough because they keep dying to gith.

No, there's not a glaring problem.

It just doesn't much sense to have two dedicated stealth classes just so you can have a single class dedicated to the pick skill, and another one dedicated to steal.

It would be comparable if we split the warrior class into "gladiator" and "mercenary;" giving one [one subset of starting warrior skills] and the other [another], shuffling the warrior skill sets up between them, letting them branch limitedly into one another and into other guilds (the experienced gladiator...follows the path of the assassin? While the mercenary follows the ranger?). It would probably be workable, but simply having a "warrior" class is better.

Or the fact that no pickpocket or burglar should ever become as skillful as the warrior in combat, because that's just how the world works.  I don't believe they should be mixed. Pickpockets are pickpockets, not dudes who break into houses and steal from homes. They make their money off the objects and the cash that people accidentally or intentionally leave in their inventories or in open containers. They're quite capable of survival without a whole bunch of other stuff to assist them, and giving them 'better' combat skills is just asking for them to be balanced with other people. Nobody is supposed to be balanced with somebody else. Pickpockets have it hard, so they need to work with what they're given.

Making pickpockets easier to play just kind of ruins the point. They're -supposed- to be hard to play, it's -supposed- to be a miserable guild, that's why the benefits of playing a good pickpocket can be so rewarding. Not that I would know.

Quote from: hyzhenhok on April 21, 2010, 01:34:37 PM

Quote from: Synthesis on April 21, 2010, 01:20:41 PM
But there isn't any glaring problem with either burglars or pickpockets, other than the fact that people obviously don't know how to play them successfully.

I get the feeling that this thread is like people crying that warriors aren't good enough because they keep dying to gith.

No, there's not a glaring problem.

It just doesn't much sense to have two dedicated stealth classes just so you can have a single class dedicated to the pick skill, and another one dedicated to steal.

It would be comparable if we split the warrior class into "gladiator" and "mercenary;" giving one starting bash and dual wield and the other shield use, parry and ride, shuffling the warrior skill sets up between them, letting them branch limitedly into one another and into other guilds (the experienced gladiator...follows the path of the assassin? While the mercenary follows the ranger?). It would probably be workable, but simply having a "warrior" class is better.

Agreed to everything he said.

I voted no because burglar already has all this.  Burglars are pretty much the rangers of crime (in civilized areas anyway).

Btw - I voted "yes" 'cause I think all mundane classes should be merged anyway.   ;D

I'd rather just see pickpockets get fixed.

I voted no.  Wait for rogue or whatever they are going to do in Arm 2.

More mundane options, not less.

Quote from: Myrdryn on April 21, 2010, 02:18:34 PM
I voted no because burglar already has all this.  Burglars are pretty much the rangers of crime (in civilized areas anyway).

Yar. I loved my burglar(s).

My inverse question though (which would determine if I said yes) is who the hell actually plays pickpocket and why? I've never played one, burglar seems like a way better choice.

Quote from: jstorrie on April 21, 2010, 02:49:19 PM
I'd rather just see pickpockets get fixed.

Quote from: jmordetsky on April 21, 2010, 04:50:54 PM

Quote from: Myrdryn on April 21, 2010, 02:18:34 PM
I voted no because burglar already has all this.  Burglars are pretty much the rangers of crime (in civilized areas anyway).

Yar. I loved my burglar(s). All of them were pretty good and nicking as well.

My inverse question though (which would determine if I said yes) is who the hell actually plays pickpocket and why? I've never played one, burglar seems like a way better choice.

That's kind of my point to the original suggestion. I'm just saying make burgs capable of maxxing steal and dump the pickpocket guild altogether. Then, you just choose (what would then be the "thief" guild, and use it either way.

I edited out a too-snippy reply.  In short, no, I'm totally against this, and burglars already carry the potential for a lot of abuse if done (in)correctly.  Considering what I've seen in game, there are some good, believable burglars and there are some that need to be sat down and explained why 100 pound beds aren't something you can just 'sneak' past a array of watching people.

I vote yes.

You could have a specialized, either pick or steal.

I think the rogues need more love.

Same with warriors.  More combat skills. More more more.

Quote from: Kryos on April 21, 2010, 05:36:30 PM
 In short, no, I'm totally against this, and burglars already carry any class carries the potential for a lot of abuse if done (in)correctly.

Fixed. This is no reason not to condense the two and get rid of the extraneous classes.

After a little thought, I change my vote to "maybe".

When compared to burglars, or any other class for that matter, pickpockets have always seemed.... A little broken, to me at least.

I'm not sure combining pickpockets and burglars would be the best option though.

An idea I would be able to back 100% would be to pretty much give pickpockets the same skills as a burglar-- but just change the skill caps and how they branch.

Add in their helpfile something like, "Master pickpockets begin to learn the path of the burglar" or something like that.

From what I've seen, the burglar guild is essentially [IC info redacted].

What harm could come from Pickpockety Burglar Lite?

I always enjoy playing pickpockets, but they are basically useless by other PCs. Except in the rare occasions.

Quote from: Kryos on April 21, 2010, 05:36:30 PM
I edited out a too-snippy reply.  In short, no, I'm totally against this, and burglars already carry the potential for a lot of abuse if done (in)correctly.  Considering what I've seen in game, there are some good, believable burglars and there are some that need to be sat down and explained why 100 pound beds aren't something you can just 'sneak' past a array of watching people.

That isn't so much a problem with the guild though as it is a problem with the fact that there is not way to get wanted when burglaring. I still think (people may hate this) that [IC info redacted].

Edit to add something on topic:

Burglar is a great guild with a lot of utility. It doesn't seem like it's lacking in any particular way, and it's one of those guilds that's extremely flexible and can be chosen for a variety of PC careers: noble's aide, thief, burglar, grebber, merchant (not as a crafter), and so on and so forth. Pickpocket doesn't really have that kind of versatility, and as someone else said, their use is very situational. I'd like to see the two merged, just to have such a narrowed class removed yet still remain an option. Rounding out the class seems like it would just make it start treading on other guild's toes and cause it to be an even more redundant option.

Quote from: Kryos on April 21, 2010, 05:36:30 PM
I edited out a too-snippy reply.  In short, no, I'm totally against this, and burglars already carry the potential for a lot of abuse if done (in)correctly.  Considering what I've seen in game, there are some good, believable burglars and there are some that need to be sat down and explained why 100 pound beds aren't something you can just 'sneak' past a array of watching people.

People constantly point to burglars stealing beds and couches and so forth, but I've personally never actually seen, nor heard of, any incidents of it happening in game. Considering the weight vs value level of the damn thing, it's more trouble putting yourself out there and compromising your identity than it is to  take the bed and find a place to sell it, while having to stop and rest several times along the way. This, to me, has always come across as one of those arguments thrown out there with 'well you can forage salt for 48 RL hours straight and have a PC with 6k in the bank in no time'. It's possible, but very rarely happens as much as GDB likes to think it does.

Quote from: jmordetsky on April 22, 2010, 12:26:34 PM
That isn't so much a problem with the guild though as it is a problem with the fact that there is not way to get wanted when burglaring. I still think (people may hate this) that part of a failed pick should be a wanted flag for small percentage of fails.

I like it, but at the same time, it makes things even harder for a new burglar and then just becomes a minor annoyance.

Starting out with a new burglar is already difficult. Getting a pick is very dependent on the pbase, and the rate at which picks can break can add up a LOT of money. Compound that with the fact that you might break into places that are either unoccupied, or just have things like a couch and bed inside. Once your skill starts to hit the higher end, you'll almost never, ever fail, making the 'wanted' flag something that would really just effect new burglars, or  at worst annoy experienced ones for a small time while they use other skills to dodge arrest.

As it is, I personally don't see much of any reason to choose a pickpocket, but I don't think combining the two guilds is the answer.

Quote
You could have a specialized, either pick or steal.

I can't see anyone doing this. (I wouldn't!) I think people will be just as motivated to grind up both as they are about grinding up any skill in the arsenal of any class. Unless you had something coded in mind, which seems more complicated than anything I've seen the staff implement into Char Gen. (I mean, we still can't start Gemmed for cryin' out loud!)

As it is, I kind of enjoy the way Assassin / Burg / Pickpocket [work]. That being said, I'm leaning more toward Pickpockets needing a little lovin'. I'm thinking [certain skills] are some good ones for consideration.  (Not all of them, of course, but a couple. And before anyone says that some of those are a little far fetched, I think burgs have some pretty far-fetched skillz as well....)

Also, perhaps burgs could lose [skill], which seems like an essential skill for pocket picking. That would make them less of a wash, and more specialized.

In short, making one master stealz0r class gets a big fat no, in Jack's opinion. But specialization is the shiznit.

Like...

choose to have PICK max out at 100, and STEAL max out at 60 -or- have PICK max out at 60, and STEAL max out at 100

*shrug*

Or have you search out a master and have them "teach" you, in order to pick one or the other to be the "best"

Haha, it'd be great if for every guild, you had to seek out a 'master' to teach you a 'specialization' in order to unlock high caps on iconic skills. NPCs and PCs could both do it!

the windswept, dune-tattooed man will teach you wilderness quit for 1000 obsidian coins and 18 gortok hides.

.

I think if the ability to quietly open someone elses pack were introduced they wouldn't be quite as 'weak'. High levels of sleight of hand?

Edit to add:

Also- the ability to close it again as well.

open man's backpack

You deftly loosen the big man's backpack and open it.

steal coins man's backpack

You managed to steal 100 coins.

close man's backpack

You deftly tighten the big man's backpack and close it.

Or something like this.

I went through and edited a lot of replies, all of which were hinting heavily at or directly stating IC info that is not in the documentation.

Please do not discuss mechanics on the GDB. This includes skill trees and how 'steal' works.

I think Greve hit the nail on the head as far as the problems with the playability of the pickpocket class.

That being said, an ability to open / close, or more simply bypass closed packs would be nice.

Also, I've seen the term 'cutpurse' being used heavily here, and I have always thought that it would be neat to have the ability to cut and nab those small pouches everyone's fond of hanging off their necks, wrists, and ankles. ((The term cutpurse itself refers to a thief running around with a knife, cutting coin purses loose from people's necks. Now them's some fast, steady hands.))

However, the stealing potential of a skilled pickpocket is already staggering, and no amount of added ability in that specific area will ever negate the problems Greve outlined. My answers still remains, a somewhat more useful skill tree.

I think the main problem this thread addresses is the uselessness of the pickpocket guild outside of its specialization.  So why not give them either special subguilds that have higher skill caps than normal ones or the ability to take two subguilds?

Quote from: Rotten on April 23, 2010, 09:26:16 PM
I think the main problem this thread addresses is the uselessness of the pickpocket guild outside of its specialization.  So why not give them either special subguilds that have higher skill caps than normal ones or the ability to take two subguilds?

Ooh... pickpocket with 2 subguilds? That sounds sweet.

( I admit I've only ever played 1 sneaky guild, and it was an assassin... but that alone would be enough lure for me to play a pickpocket.)

Eh, I like a challenge just as much as anybody, but the pick pocket guild is so stressful to most people or just frustrating that not many try it. I rather see it melded with burglar and pick be branched and see some new guild be put in place if someone still wants another guild there, I'm sure someone could come up with something interesting and realistic.

Quoteand see some new guild be put in place if someone still wants another guild there,

Please don't do that in this thread though. There are already several threads out there speculating on new possible guilds. I think there was even a recent one.

I put no. I am 30 now but was young once. Because of the 5th, I won't say why. A pickpocket and a burglar really are two different people. One is pretty much a mugger, and bully, they may sneak around, but for the most part they'll fight you and take your stuff. Those people really exist, breaking into a house? Check Beating on people? Check Stalking around and Casing out? Check Passively stealing from passer-bys? FAIL! Nope, not the same person.
Think of Burgs as breaking and entering thugs.
Pickpockets really have almost no business fighting anyone, at all. They are the physically weak in a confrontation, but able to con and take all day right in front of you without ever causing a confrontation.

These are not the same guild, the only pay off would be having sneaking gypsy pickpockets that can fight better, I'm fine without that as there are already classes to choose from if you want better fighting.

We combining warriors and merchants next so the merchants aren't as weak? That is all I see here. PP's are weak and it looks like an attempt to make them better. Keep them weak, keep them small time thieves, because at the end of the day some of us might want to play that (as my friend is right now) and we need that class around.

Quote from: jstorrie on April 22, 2010, 04:04:36 PM
Haha, it'd be great if for every guild, you had to seek out a 'master' to teach you a 'specialization' in order to unlock high caps on iconic skills. NPCs and PCs could both do it!

the windswept, dune-tattooed man will teach you wilderness quit for 1000 obsidian coins and 18 gortok hides.

That would be cool, but there are 238,742,398 other muds doing that already and it does get old and restrictive super fast.

Quote from: Rotten on April 23, 2010, 09:26:16 PM
I think the main problem this thread addresses is the uselessness of the pickpocket guild outside of its specialization.  So why not give them either special subguilds that have higher skill caps than normal ones or the ability to take two subguilds?

I Should have done this in one post.

I would like to see PPs start off with a little more. I just introduced a friend to mudding on the other side of the arm world from my character so he can shoot me questions without our stories colliding. I've seen his skill list and it is pretty hard for a PP to start also I am reading they don't get a whole lot. Maybe starting with hide, or branching one or two other non-combat, stealthy skills (pick [really weak], scan [for guards or hidden marks, those are the best]) I am not sure about their flee skill, but I am hoping it is one of the highest in the game, if not, it should be ;) or just give them a higher defense cap since they focus so hard on getting away, let them.

I just see the guilds as two really different forms of play and we are discussing taking out an entire form of play right to make it more battle ready, at most it just needs a tweek to be more flitting and cowardly, let's think this long and through before jumping at the pretty combat carrot.

I keep hearing people talking about fighting ability, I've never chosen either class to be a "combat" character at all. If that's really the concern with combining them, then give them the lower combat capability of the two. I'd be perfectly happy with that, my burgs or pickpockets avoiding fighting at all costs anyway. I pretty much play a burglar as an "all-purpose" thief, picking pockets or stealing in other ways. I see no reason for the two to exist separately. As someone else said, we don't have warriors divided into different "specialty" combat classes, why does it need to be that way with burglars and pickpockets? I don't feel that it needs to be. It isn't going to destroy the game if the two were combined.

Yeah.... Burgs or pickpockets are pretty poor choices if you wanna go the combat route.

So your basically asking for a higher cap on steal and no more pickpocket class?

I could live with taking out backstab also.

Quote from: Qzzrbl on May 08, 2010, 12:01:05 PM
I could live with taking out backstab also.

Be careful what you wish for.  I'll bet backstab is crucial in limiting the number of burglars in the long run, because most of them die trying it out.  :)

If you start removing combat skills from the thiefly classes, then they'd be less tempted to participate in combat, and they'd probably start living longer.

Yeah, in my opinion both burglars and pickpockets have some 'useless' skills–useless because the caps are so low. I suppose the reader will have to figure out in-game; my condolences on their imminent deaths.

Both these classes have overlapping skillsets - with different caps.

There's really no justification to warrant the existence of two different guilds, based solely on 2 of the main skills (at different levels).

Over and above this, it gets monotonous to play a PP after a while - why not combine the two, and allow for more roleplay and skill variety?

If you think about it - you could actually follow the logic of having Burglars and Pickpockets and extend it to Rangers as well - and divide them into 2 classes - Trackers (rangers who excel at tracking skills) and Gatherers (rangers who excel at foraging and skinning skills). But all this does is - it takes one solid class, and breaks it down into two weaker versions of it.

I definitely think there's some real potential to merging PP and Burglar classes to make one solid Thief class.

a) Burglar - Cutpurse = Cap Steal at Master, Cap Pick at Journeyman
b) Burglar - Housebreaker = Cap Steal at Journeyman, Cap Pick at Master

Make a failed pick break hide and flag as Wanted for the same amount of time as a failed steal.

Presto!

Pickpocket is a dull guild in general. I always thought it was too limited. Merging Burglar with Pickpocket makes a lot of sense.

To balance it out make them less skillful at combat. This could very well be a class that excels at being undetected and move undetected in all sorts of places.

Not having access to helpfiles at the time I can't say with any certainty whether or not the pickpocket and burglar guilds have value or haggle skills, but I think they should.  Also, the ability to pick any 2-3 crafting skills with 1 being master and the other 1 or 1 being capped at the skill level just below that would make those guild much more versitile and offer players more to do than steal loot (or fail to do so).  Sticking to the traditional fantasy setting, I find it believable that a burglar/pickpocket should be able to pass themselves off as a merchant if they really put their mind to it.

Quote from: Sephiroto on June 27, 2010, 03:14:46 AM
Not having access to helpfiles at the time I can't say with any certainty whether or not the pickpocket and burglar guilds have value or haggle skills, but I think they should.  Also, the ability to pick any 2-3 crafting skills with 1 being master and the other 1 or 1 being capped at the skill level just below that would make those guild much more versitile and offer players more to do than steal loot (or fail to do so).  Sticking to the traditional fantasy setting, I find it believable that a burglar/pickpocket should be able to pass themselves off as a merchant if they really put their mind to it.

They could pick a decent subguild like general crafter then, couldn't they?

Well, they could, but it would do more to address said "dullnesses" of the pickpocket guild if they could truly master another skill or craft.  At least then they'd have a better chance of truly excelling at honest work while keeping their shady business to the side, instead of vice-versa.

Quote from: Sephiroto on June 27, 2010, 03:28:09 AM
At least then they'd have a better chance of truly excelling at honest work while keeping their shady business to the side, instead of vice-versa.

Merchant/thief.

How does playing a merchant guild help expand burglar/pickpocket?  It doesn't.  I meant to suggest that staff add skills to the main thiefy guilds to give folks the tools (skills) to be more diverse.

I suppose the end of my discussion is this: I really don't expect any of this to come to be until 2.Arm, when we're more able to specialize or diversify our skills, but its nice to dream about something new.

Quote from: Sephiroto on June 27, 2010, 05:06:57 AM
I suppose the end of my discussion is this: I really don't expect any of this to come to be until 2.Arm, when we're more able to specialize or diversify our skills, but its nice to dream about something new.

To bad Arm Reborn is a myth. And never coming around.

Quote from: Sephiroto on June 27, 2010, 05:06:57 AM
How does playing a merchant guild help expand burglar/pickpocket?  

I wasn't saying that it did.  You're suggestion offered a chance for a sneaky person to have their MAIN job be honest, and be a sneaky on the side.  Merchant/thief offers you that option.  Sure, you won't be as good as a burglar or thief at being sneaky, but like you said, that was your "side" job.


Also, you always have the option of special apping a half/half guild character.

We've got a fighter class. - Warrior.
We've got an indoor sneaky fighter class - Assassin
We've got a sneaky outdoor outdoor fighter class - Ranger
We've got a crafting class - Merchant

And we've got a tossup between pickpocket and burglar for sneaky thief class-- burglar pretty much wins out for versatility.

Real question is-- what can a pickpocket do that a burglar can't? Spare a pretty useless combat skill (sap) and a higher skill cap for steal (which burglars can get pretty damn good at anyway)?

If anything, I say it'd be interesting to swap the skill tree between burglar and pickpocket entirely, but leaving their respective thiefy skills (pick, steal, and peek) at their current setting.

It would certainly end alot of bitching and moaning about there being too many burglars robbing apartments blind....

Pickpockets would be more useful-- and experienced burglars that somehow manage to survive would still have plenty of room for employment.

Pickpockets are much better fighters than burglars, once they're fully branched.

And if you think sap is useless, you're sadly mistaken.

Pickpockets are fine.  It seems like the vast majority of complaints are coming from people who haven't ever had much luck playing one.

Quote from: Synthesis on June 27, 2010, 11:27:13 AM
Pickpockets are much better fighters than burglars, once they're fully branched.

And if you think sap is useless, you're sadly mistaken.

Pickpockets are fine.  It seems like the vast majority of complaints are coming from people who haven't ever had much luck playing one.

To clarify, I didn't mean sap itself was useless.

It just seems pretty useless for pickpockets.

Quote from: Qzzrbl on June 27, 2010, 11:31:24 AM

Quote from: Synthesis on June 27, 2010, 11:27:13 AM
Pickpockets are much better fighters than burglars, once they're fully branched.

And if you think sap is useless, you're sadly mistaken.

Pickpockets are fine.  It seems like the vast majority of complaints are coming from people who haven't ever had much luck playing one.

To clarify, I didn't mean sap itself was useless.

It just seems pretty useless for pickpockets.

You don't need the bludgeoning weapons skill once you've knocked someone out.

Good luck knocking someone out with pickpocket sap. I hope your target is a low-endurance elf...

Quote from: jstorrie on June 27, 2010, 12:26:51 PM
Good luck knocking someone out with pickpocket sap. I hope your target is a low-endurance elf...

I've done it and seen it done.  I don't know what your problem's been.

Quote from: Synthesis on June 27, 2010, 12:37:05 PM
I don't know what your problem's been.

Perhaps the logic of: There's a good chance I might NOT knock the person out, so I better damn well know how to use this [sap/club/whatever] if I don't.

Like I said:  pickpockets get very decent at combat, once they're fully branched.

If all you want to do is sap people to 0 stun, perhaps you should play an assassin instead.

After all, pickpockets are primarily concerned with...the picking of pockets.

Also:  if you can't figure out ways to maximize your chances of getting a successful knockout, you aren't thinking very hard.

Pickpockets have their own niche, much like a warrior is a single minded class they fight.
Pickpockets steal, that's what they do and they can be rediculously good at it.
They get a number of skills that intermesh between all the city based sneaky types, but you just gotta know your role.
It's not to say a pickpocket can never learn to fight, but if your playing a pickpocket to concentrate more
on combat than stealing you're probably not gonna be very successful. Pickpockets can ruin your day plenty fine.

QuoteLike I said:  pickpockets get very decent at combat, once they're fully branched.

If all you want to do is sap people to 0 stun, perhaps you should play an assassin instead.

After all, pickpockets are primarily concerned with...the picking of pockets.

Also:  if you can't figure out ways to maximize your chances of getting a successful knockout, you aren't thinking very hard.

Pretty much what Synthesis said.  I'm kind of at a loss for why there are complaints about this class.  They don't -start- perfect, but end up rounding out quite nicely.

I understand and sort of like the general idea of a "Rogue" guild or something like that... but I would just hate to lose an option for a starting class.  Maybe pickpockets and burglars need some more beginner-sih skills for those that don't reach the upper levels of skill-branching.  I'm all for more variety.  Heck, if anything I think I'd rather ADD a "Rogue" class - I'm not sure what that would be, but just saying.  Maybe it could be a swashbuckler type... jack of all trades, master of none.  That's probably what burglar is, though... *shrug*  I haven't played them enough to know.

Quote from: Armaddict on October 17, 2010, 08:37:02 PM

QuoteLike I said:  pickpockets get very decent at combat, once they're fully branched.

If all you want to do is sap people to 0 stun, perhaps you should play an assassin instead.

After all, pickpockets are primarily concerned with...the picking of pockets.

Also:  if you can't figure out ways to maximize your chances of getting a successful knockout, you aren't thinking very hard.

Pretty much what Synthesis said.  I'm kind of at a loss for why there are complaints about this class.  They don't -start- perfect, but end up rounding out quite nicely.

Most people playing pick pockets will not live long enough to round them out.

Quote from: HavokBlue on October 18, 2010, 08:01:10 PMMost people playing characters in Armageddon will not live long enough to round them out.

ftfy

Quote from: Marshmellow on October 18, 2010, 09:00:47 PM

Quote from: HavokBlue on October 18, 2010, 08:01:10 PMMost people playing characters in Armageddon will not live long enough to round them out.

ftfy

It's fair to say that some classes are easier to survive with until they start to get powerful, and also fair to say some classes a stronger out of the gate than others. If we look at a the short stretch, it's easy to see why some classes are considered underpowered and others are overpowered.

I no longer support the idea of a combined thief class, though.

I voted no, both Burglar and Pickpocket have their different niches. A Burglar will not be the undisputed master of your essential gear. A Pickpocket won't be the bastard who robs your templar figurine collection, assorted non-essential supplies and favorite coatstand.

Both of those abilities are very powerful when taken to extreme levels and I believe the classes shouldn't be merged. Burglar is the city-ranger. Pickpocket is the city-stealth-warrior.

I'm sorry... I usually don't post anymore but I had to respond.

One of my most favorite characters in five-ish years or so was Reiko - my thief.  Some of you may (or likely may not since she never left the city) remember her as the petulant, young, confused, knocked up thirteen year old that stole your shit and carried around a beat up ass doll.

If you can't rustle up some drama with a pickpocket or turn a coin - yer doin it wrong.

Could pickpockets use a little oomf?  I suppose.   Should they be merged with burglars?  No way.  Should some of the skills they branch like a specific combat ability be tweaked along with their other combat abilities?  Maybe.  But pickpockets have awesome potential at role play and turning profit.  I suggest anyone wanting to play a pickpocket highly consider their subguild at character creation.  Pickpockets are 100 percent a different guild.

If you're looking to pwn newbs and have l33t hackzors combat or eventually strut around like a badass solely based on your skill set, look elsewhere.  Thieves are a challenge because they require cunning, common sense and each of their actions must be seriously considered as there are serious repercussions to their actions and you need to start out knowing you are likely never going to walk into the arena and shiv muls successfully.  Let that seep, come to terms with it - then play a pickpocket.

Some of my FAVORITE characters were pickpockets, and not meaning characters that were mine either.  Itches the elf that stole my key from my apartment and charged me to get it back and did card tricks.  Lina to Moony, Cale to Bo - scenes with that kid brought tears to my eyes IRL, I ain't gonna lie.  If you want to play a commoner that ISN'T a stoic badass, if you want to turn some coin, if you want the chance to play a supporting role to the hilt pickpockets are awesome, awesome, awesome.  They have amazing potential as characters, they're very versatile and I love them and never want to see them as mini-assassins and shit.  Are they kinda weak?  Yeah - but it means you have to play that much harder to execute them successfully and improvise RP with code.

EDIT:  PS: Saying Burglars and Pickpockets are the same is like saying Warrior and Assassins are the same guild because they both fight.  Or Assassins and Burglars are the same and so on and on.  Pickpockets are hard to play intentionally.  Do you all really want pickpockets to be -easy- to play so they can run around spam stealing - yeh, no.  If anything I think steal should be taken away from burglars - at least starting out. [/end pickpocket luv]

My whole point is that there isn't any reason for them to be separated. As is, if I want to pick pockets, I use the burglar class anyway because then I have other things I can do to round out the character. I still say, give the burglar skillset pickpocket level steal, pick, and peek, call it the rogue guild and ditch pickpocket altogether as a class of it's own. Then if someone wants to play a picking pockets type of thief, they choose rogue, if they want to play an actual burglar, they choose rogue, if they want to be a master of all thievery, they choose rogue. Same class, played many different ways and I see no need for them to be separated.
Or, combine the two into the rogue class but, make pickpocket and burglar subguilds that change around the caps of certain skills when combined with rogue if one so chooses.

No.

I dread the thought of more pickpockets in the game. Might as well not even bother to carry anything snatchable at all (including weapons on belts) if this change is made.

It would just be extending the problems of the burglar class (one can clean out every apartment in a city in a day) to picking pockets (good luck if you visit a tavern).

Why don't we just merge every class by that logic?

No way! Never! Pickpockets rock hard. Way harder than burglars. Burglars can't even touch them.

My biggest adrenaline rush ever in this game was the result of a pick pocket, turned successful. And to be deprived of that, or deprive anyone else of that is a shame. (I know you didn't say remove skill_steal, but it's the devotion to that that really makes it a worthwhile role to play).

One of my pick pockets would pretty much be hungry at all times. Why? Well, I felt that my character wouldn't pick pocket someone unless he had a reason to. Being hungry is a good reason. Just sold my pants for a piece of bread? Well, now it's time to take the pants of someone else.

Assassins rock hard too. My vote... REMOVE the burglar guild. Not because they are overpowered or twinked or anything like that. I just don't find them to be an integral part of the world, at least enough to require PC representation, nor a role that is rewarding at all. Personal opinion though.

Edited to add:

I do like burglars for the sole reason of keeping all the spam hunter subguild crafters honest. In my opinion, apartments containing enough materials and crafted items to take over all the merchant houses is a far more heinous crime against the world than stealing. I'm sure if you compared these two different styles of thievery, the indie hunter crafter side of the scale would be low enough to hit the other side of the world.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on November 29, 2010, 12:37:21 PM
No.

I dread the thought of more pickpockets in the game. Might as well not even bother to carry anything snatchable at all (including weapons on belts) if this change is made.

It would just be extending the problems of the burglar class (one can clean out every apartment in a city in a day) to picking pockets (good luck if you visit a tavern).

In all my time playing I've only ever once had anything stolen off my pc and I leave things available to steal most of the time so, I don't believe there is a problem of too many pick pockets in the game. There's nothing wrong with the burglar class just because someone plays unrealistically doesn't make it a problem with the guild, it makes it a problem with the player. Just because someone can unrealistically spam-craft, it doesn't mean there is something wrong with the merchant guild. Just because one can unrealistically spar all day long without taking a break, it doesn't mean there is something wrong with the warrior guild, etc.
If you feel someone is doing things unrealistically, then it is your responsibility to report it to the staff, let them look into it and assume that -if- there was some poor play going on, they will deal with the player appropriately.

Quote from: jhunter on November 29, 2010, 02:31:13 PM
In all my time playing I've only ever once had anything stolen off my pc and I leave things available to steal most of the time so, I don't believe there is a problem of too many pick pockets in the game. There's nothing wrong with the burglar class just because someone plays unrealistically doesn't make it a problem with the guild, it makes it a problem with the player. Just because someone can unrealistically spam-craft, it doesn't mean there is something wrong with the merchant guild. Just because one can unrealistically spar all day long without taking a break, it doesn't mean there is something wrong with the warrior guild, etc.
If you feel someone is doing things unrealistically, then it is your responsibility to report it to the staff, let them look into it and assume that -if- there was some poor play going on, they will deal with the player appropriately.

I'd agree its not a problem of quantity, its a problem of quality.

I've had, several times in the course of my playing, screen scroll that looked a bit like

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

A human soldier of Godkingoverlord has arrived from the west.

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

A human soldier of Godkingoverlord has arrived from the west.

A figure in a typical cloak runs north.

A human soldier of Godkingoverlord runs north.

A human soldier of Godkingoverlord runs north.


In the time it took me to type "think What the Drov was that?"

If anything theft code still needs a hard revisit.  In the six or so times I've been targeted by a thief, only twice has it been either 'reasonable' or 'ig.'  Almost makes me sad to suggest these roles have a bit of karma put on them, so staff watches them more intently, or drops a falcon punch on people that do the above.

Salt Merchant:
No.

I dread the thought of more pickpockets in the game. Might as well not even bother to carry anything snatchable at all (including weapons on belts) if this change is made.

Let's say that your pc's most valuable possession was stolen. How would you be damaged by that? It would suck for your PC, sure. But that doesn't make it bad for the game. In fact, a little danger, hardship and conflict are good. Clearly what we do need is more pick-pockets.

Quote from: Barzalene on November 29, 2010, 03:49:07 PM
Let's say that your pc's most valuable possession was stolen. How would you be damaged by that? It would suck for your PC, sure. But that doesn't make it bad for the game. In fact, a little danger, hardship and conflict are good. Clearly what we do need is more pick-pockets.

The problem is that anyone, short of a HG or mentally handicapped person, would be able to react to feeling the attempt/noticing something's gone by becoming observant enough to notice future attempts for a time, until their guard went down.  Code doesn't account for this at all.  Pick pockets should be looking for either little scores to get by on the by to by, or a big score by stealing something valuable and laying low, to survive.  You can't be a proponent of harsh one way and not the other.

Quote from: Kryos on November 29, 2010, 03:47:34 PM

Quote from: jhunter on November 29, 2010, 02:31:13 PM
In all my time playing I've only ever once had anything stolen off my pc and I leave things available to steal most of the time so, I don't believe there is a problem of too many pick pockets in the game. There's nothing wrong with the burglar class just because someone plays unrealistically doesn't make it a problem with the guild, it makes it a problem with the player. Just because someone can unrealistically spam-craft, it doesn't mean there is something wrong with the merchant guild. Just because one can unrealistically spar all day long without taking a break, it doesn't mean there is something wrong with the warrior guild, etc.
If you feel someone is doing things unrealistically, then it is your responsibility to report it to the staff, let them look into it and assume that -if- there was some poor play going on, they will deal with the player appropriately.

I'd agree its not a problem of quantity, its a problem of quality.

I've had, several times in the course of my playing, screen scroll that looked a bit like

Code Select Expand

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

A human soldier of Godkingoverlord has arrived from the west.

You feel a faint tug in your belongings, but can't find the source.

A human soldier of Godkingoverlord has arrived from the west.

A figure in a typical cloak runs north.

A human soldier of Godkingoverlord runs north.

A human soldier of Godkingoverlord runs north.


In the time it took me to type "think What the Drov was that?"

If anything theft code still needs a hard revisit.  In the six or so times I've been targeted by a thief, only twice has it been either 'reasonable' or 'ig.'  Almost makes me sad to suggest these roles have a bit of karma put on them, so staff watches them more intently, or drops a falcon punch on people that do the above.

The question is though, does the message the pickpockets get from such an attempt make them aware that you are aware something was amiss? Or does it make them believe they managed to cover it up completely unoticed? The problem is, you're assuming that it is clear to the one making the attempt that you noticed and might be more alert. Which, obviously isn't the case since the code didn't tell you for certain that someone was attempting to steal from you. It said you feeel a faint tug at your belongings and can't find the source which doesn't necessarily mean that you know someone is attempting to steal something from you. Such an assumption, every single time, is rather OOC. Some pcs might be paranoid and look around suspiciously, some might assume their sheath got caught on their chair, etc. Unless you are a super slug typist, there is no way they made that many attempts in the time it took you to type what you did as you say since they have a delay for each attempt. Better rp on your part would've been to emote grasping your things and looking around suspiciously to do something to do something to display that you are alert to something wierd. I think you're jumping to conclusions, as people have a bad habit of doing, and lying all the blame at the feet of the wouldbe pickpocket.

One successful pickpocket already feels like a plague. Even if played only to feed itself.

Their invincibility (vs. certain classes) is maddening, once they have their skills up. Even if you do spot them, you can't touch them while they dance around you sneering. The law protects thieves most of all.

I was soured on pick pockets early in my "career" here. Admittedly, people play better these days, but to me they're still like a room full of flies that can't be swatted.

EDIT: Instead of looking to remove classes (and choice), why don't people propose some ideas for a new class or two instead?

Quote from: jhunter on November 29, 2010, 05:19:38 PM
The question is though, does the message the pickpockets get from such an attempt make them aware that you are aware something was amiss? Or does it make them believe they managed to cover it up completely unoticed? The problem is, you're assuming that it is clear to the one making the attempt that you noticed and might be more alert. Which, obviously isn't the case since the code didn't tell you for certain that someone was attempting to steal from you. It said you feeel a faint tug at your belongings and can't find the source which doesn't necessarily mean that you know someone is attempting to steal something from you. Such an assumption, every single time, is rather OOC. Some pcs might be paranoid and look around suspiciously, some might assume their sheath got caught on their chair, etc. Unless you are a super slug typist, there is no way they made that many attempts in the time it took you to type what you did as you say since they have a delay for each attempt. Better rp on your part would've been to emote grasping your things and looking around suspiciously to do something to do something to display that you are alert to something wierd. I think you're jumping to conclusions, as people have a bad habit of doing, and lying all the blame at the feet of the wouldbe pickpocket.

In short, you're making a lot of presumptions yourself, and they're incorrect.

1) You imply I've never played a pick pocket, you're wrong.
2) You imply people in Zalanthas wouldn't be quite familiar with the behavior of thieves, you're wrong.  People steal to live, on all number of levels.
3) You imply its ok for someone to put in the command 'steal <something> <someone>;' in the buffer and spam enter so long as they don't get message telling them they failed.  Its not.
4) You suggest that using RP is going to somehow avert this kind of player from just continuing to try and swipe whatever from you until they're codedly caught(and that I don't rp, apparently):  it doesn't, and you're wrong again.

So, yeah, in these cases it's quite fine to say the pickpocket is poorly played.  Its also fine to say the code for hide and thieving is poorly implemented.

Then again, as I said originally, there are good thieves out there too, which was seemingly ignored.  Rather then changing classes, fix the code.

Quote2) You imply people in Zalanthas wouldn't be quite familiar with the behavior of thieves, you're wrong.  People steal to live, on all number of levels.

On this point, I don't think you are comprehending exactly what I'm saying. My point is that the message doesn't explicitly state that "someone is trying to steal from you" your reaction that it is the case is based primarily on OOC knowledge. That has nothing to do with what is happening Icly. It could mean many different things IC.

I don't think that I implied anywhere that you have never played a pickpocket. Also, no I did not imply that it was okay for "someone to put the command 'steal <something>;' in the buffer and spam enter so long as they don't get a message telling them they failed", what I did say was that you're obviously grossly exaggerating the scenario since there is a delay to the steal command and you say that you were unable to type a short, single line think in during that time. Unless, you happen to hunt and peck type at the speed of a 90 year old their first time attempting to type anything, this is also an exaggeration.
-What- exactly do you suggest doing to "fix" the code that doesn't involve making such types of characters almost unplayable?

A bit of a derail, but it -would- be pretty cool to get a bump to perception against pickpocketing after getting a "lol, someone stoled from you but you didn't see who" message.

Because.... Well. Y'know, it makes sense to keep an eye on your pockets after feeling someone rifling around in there.

If you're feeling a tug at your belongings and you can't figure out who's doing it, chances are it's not a legit Guild_Pickpocket, because by the time a true pickpocket can be unseen, that steal skill is maxed so hard they will never fail, ever.

You're probably getting noobed by a burglar, a subclass thief, or a city-elf.

  Pickpockets - derail on supposed "buffness". My frank opinion is that it is too easy to avoid being pick pocketed. As long as you kit out in a certain fashion and are consistent in doing certain coded actions the window of opportunity for the would be pickpocket is rather slim.

 (in terms of code/items - this didn't always use to be the case, but it has been in the past decade or so).

 I think players are peeved in an OOC sense when their "stuff" gets stolen (or when they are PKed). Stuff gets stolen (and people are murdered). Try appearing rich (or just western) in certain 3rd countries IRL, and you will be stolen from in a high degree of certainty (and perhaps mugged/kidnapped/beaten to death for your credit card). Most PCs are rich, even very rich (also commoners) in contrast to the very poor environment

 Burglars, *perhaps*, have it easier (not sure in the current apartment environment), and are able (codedly, if twinking) to empty out a whole apartment (including the heavy bed, closet, and whatnot) with a certain degree of coded impunity (if they are fairly certain the owner(s) aren't logged in and playing).

 In short - get over it.

 (and I haven't played too many thieves, if at all, and definitely not recently, so heck, maybe I'm wrong on the easiness).

 

I have played with (and played) both pickpockets and burglars who used their skill sets in "unconventional" ways. When that ranger friend of yours saps a raptor, or the merchant you've been selling materials to offers you a poisoned blade, it can make for some interesting re-evaluations. I always found it enjoyable to realize that these sorts chose to play a person, rather than just emptying my pockets/apartment.

Combining/removing either of these classes would, in my opinion, reduce the range of options for people who want to be creative in playing middle to low combat ability characters.

Quote from: Bilanthri on November 30, 2010, 12:09:38 PM
I have played with (and played) both pickpockets and burglars who used their skill sets in "unconventional" ways. When that ranger friend of yours saps a raptor, or the merchant you've been selling materials to offers you a poisoned blade, it can make for some interesting re-evaluations. I always found it enjoyable to realize that these sorts chose to play a person, rather than just emptying my pockets/apartment.

Combining/removing either of these classes would, in my opinion, reduce the range of options for people who want to be creative in playing middle to low combat ability characters.

How would combining them reduce the range of options when, the way I suggest, the same guild could be played either way?

Quote from: jhunter on November 30, 2010, 02:37:57 PM

Quote from: Bilanthri on November 30, 2010, 12:09:38 PM
I have played with (and played) both pickpockets and burglars who used their skill sets in "unconventional" ways. When that ranger friend of yours saps a raptor, or the merchant you've been selling materials to offers you a poisoned blade, it can make for some interesting re-evaluations. I always found it enjoyable to realize that these sorts chose to play a person, rather than just emptying my pockets/apartment.

Combining/removing either of these classes would, in my opinion, reduce the range of options for people who want to be creative in playing middle to low combat ability characters.

How would combining them reduce the range of options when, the way I suggest, the same guild could be played either way?

Hmm...if there was a class that had all the skills of both Pickpocket and Burglar, it would seem that the uber-rogue would be born. I like that a Pickpocket and Burglar have skills to offer one another in a rogue team. I guess the idea of a stock thief just bores me.

Last I checked... You feeling a tug at your belongings was also added as a random "feeling" in some rooms.

Might be you just got hit by a smooth set of feels.

Quote from: lepxii on November 30, 2010, 11:29:13 AM

 I think players are peeved in an OOC sense when their "stuff" gets stolen (or when they are PKed). Stuff gets stolen (and people are murdered).
 In short - get over it.

I did, I completely cannibalized lepxii's post. Maybe this wasn't his/her intention. Sorry, in that case, lepxii.

I hope it's not rude to say this, but seriously? Get over it.

Quote from: Barzalene on November 30, 2010, 07:54:36 PM
I hope it's not rude to say this, but seriously? Get over it.

That's easy to say, isn't it?

Here are a few others for people then:

Mages can wtfpwn you? Get over it.
Dwarves are too strong and dominate the fighting classes now? Get over it.
Half-giants don't seem stupid enough to you? Get over it.

In fact, we can just shut down any line of conversation with a good ol' "get over it", can't we.

Actually, I've never complained about any of those things.

Quote from: Barzalene on November 30, 2010, 09:32:33 PM
Actually, I've never complained about any of those things.

No, but plenty of other people have.

Get over it.

Ok.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on November 30, 2010, 09:25:06 PM

Quote from: Barzalene on November 30, 2010, 07:54:36 PM
I hope it's not rude to say this, but seriously? Get over it.

That's easy to say, isn't it?

Here are a few others for people then:

Mages can wtfpwn you? Get over it.
Dwarves are too strong and dominate the fighting classes now? Get over it.
Half-giants don't seem stupid enough to you? Get over it.

In fact, we can just shut down any line of conversation with a good ol' "get over it", can't we.

Doesn't really make sense with the half-giants, since that's a reasonable roleplaying complaint.

For all the others and your whine about pickpockets, yeah. Get over it.

Quote from: hyzhenhok on December 01, 2010, 04:02:24 AM

Quote from: Salt Merchant on November 30, 2010, 09:25:06 PM

Quote from: Barzalene on November 30, 2010, 07:54:36 PM
I hope it's not rude to say this, but seriously? Get over it.

That's easy to say, isn't it?

Here are a few others for people then:

Mages can wtfpwn you? Get over it.
Dwarves are too strong and dominate the fighting classes now? Get over it.
Half-giants don't seem stupid enough to you? Get over it.

In fact, we can just shut down any line of conversation with a good ol' "get over it", can't we.

Doesn't really make sense with the half-giants, since that's a reasonable roleplaying complaint.

For all the others and your whine about pickpockets, yeah. Get over it.

Not like anybody's forcing anybody to play a pickpocket....

Stop trying to get burglars that can pickpocket like a motherfucker and have sap, folks.

::)

Quote from: hyzhenhok on December 01, 2010, 04:02:24 AM
For all the others and your whine about pickpockets, yeah. Get over it.

Someone's "whining"? Get over it.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on December 01, 2010, 09:20:41 AM

Quote from: hyzhenhok on December 01, 2010, 04:02:24 AM
For all the others and your whine about pickpockets, yeah. Get over it.

Someone's "whining"? Get over it.

Quit trollin', maaaan.

Before this thread turns into a discussion about the 'climb' skill and getting over obstacles, I would just like to say that I don't think pickpockets are particularly broken or lack a place in the game. We don't need to remove or combine guilds, because the main skills of the pickpocket and burglar, arguably steal and pick, don't need to be put together to create a PC that can steal in any situation. The methods of thievery are vastly different as-is, anyway. Already a good guild_pickpocket can be played or employed creatively, and not just for pickpocketing.

The idea that a skilled, well-played PC pickpocket can be a "plague" is odd to me, and seems like a stretch, because (and correct me if I'm wrong) I thought this was a game where characters would regularly have to deal with loss - often the unfair kind. The problem of poorly-played pickpockets can't be entirely stamped out with code changes, although raising a victim's awareness after he/she catches a failed attempt for a time makes sense, considering NPCs have the "Thief! Thief!" defense.

Such a change to the steal code combined with reinforcement of good roleplay of thieves would be the most effective way of making a pickpocket class that is more widely enjoyable. We have The Thief's Bible on the website, and perhaps a player that has successfully played a pickpocket could start a thread in Player Collaboration about good pickpocketing specifically.

There's no plague of pickpockets.  There's a couple of people who feel wronged, and like any reactionary redblooded redneck American, they're raising way too huge of a stink about it.  My apologies to any rednecks who are not reactionary, you're good folk.

Pickpocketing as a skill should be looked at, as someone mentioned.  For each failure, the target of that failure should get a bonus to perceive the next attempt, as well as a bonus to see the thief as well. 

Pickpocketing should also have bonuses depending on how drunk the target is.

In my opinion, despite the 'need' for these minor change suggestions, thieving is done remarkably well on the game.  If you're pissed about it, that sucks.  That's kind of the point.

Having something stolen from you is not an offense to you as a player, unless you invest waaaaay too much of your heart in this game.  If that's the case, walk away from the keyboard, pick up a phone, call a shrink and get your head checked.  If having a series of valueless ones and zeros stolen from "you" causes an actual problem for you, then you need to find a new hobby.

Get a grip.

Well, technically those 1's and 0's representing your character's inventory aren't valueless to the player.

Since you must invest time to accumulate those 1's and 0's to your pfile, and time is a valuable and scarce resource, you are in fact losing RL value when someone steals from you IC.

That being said, folks should realize that this is what is understood as "a cost of doing business" when you play the game.

Quote from: Synthesis on December 01, 2010, 03:45:05 PM
Well, technically those 1's and 0's representing your character's inventory aren't valueless to the player.

Since you must invest time to accumulate those 1's and 0's to your pfile, and time is a valuable and scarce resource, you are in fact losing RL value when someone steals from you IC.

That being said, folks should realize that this is what is understood as "a cost of doing business" when you play the game.

Hmm... thinking about it. Every time I've been stolen from it has contributed to my enjoyment as a player.

Therefore, any griping about thieves, if it discourages the thieves, will negatively impact my enjoyment profit from this game.

Therefore, to counter it, I must insist I'd rather be stolen from more.

Synthesis - those 1s and 0s become a scarcer commodity because they are regularly transferred via various means (pkill, stealing, falling off a cliff, templars, sekreet magickers, ....) to other pfiles and to game rooms. Thus, the amount of time require to amass said bits increases, and your perceived value increases as well.

I'm fairly sure that staff would look down at RL transactions involving hard cash for said bits (this would probably results in all bits of the pfiles in question being erased) - but then again, this perceived policy probably increases perceived value of said bits as they are not liquid (though they may be fungible in a certain sense (memcpy)), thus accumulation of the bits is not a linear function of your IRL wealth.

Being more serious - you play for enjoyment. It takes some time to amass belongings, and probably even more time to get a PC with "skillz" or a vast social network. A large part of the enjoyment of the game is the fact that there are a multitude of dangers faced by PCs and that various items, skills, and friends can, to a certain extent, mitigate said dangers.

And frankly - it is far too easy to avoid being pick pocketed by a combination of IC actions coupled with OOC code.

Quote from: Malifaxis on December 01, 2010, 01:11:05 PM
For each failure, the target of that failure should get a bonus to perceive the next attempt, as well as a bonus to see the thief as well. 

I liked your post except for this. I wanted to say I disagree with the bolded portion unless you mean to see the thief on any FURTHER attempts.
It is already too easy to catch a thief.

Quote from: Sam on December 01, 2010, 04:41:58 PM
It is already too easy to catch a thief.

(http://www.esquire.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/carygrant1.jpg)

Another thing just occurred to me...if there was a single rogue guild that could do both, they would be able to divide their time between picking pockets and burglarizing apartments instead of being able to rely only on one route of thievery to sustain themselves. Just something to think about.

QuoteStop trying to get burglars that can pickpocket like a motherfucker and have sap, folks.

So remove sap from the skillset if it became a single skillset. I wouldn't miss it anyway. I've -had- burglars that could pickpocket like a motherfucker.

Quote from: jhunter on December 01, 2010, 08:10:47 PM
Another thing just occurred to me...if there was a single rogue guild that could do both, they would be able to divide their time between picking pockets and burglarizing apartments instead of being able to rely only on one route of thievery to sustain themselves. Just something to think about.

QuoteStop trying to get burglars that can pickpocket like a motherfucker and have sap, folks.

I've -had- burglars that could pickpocket like a motherfucker.

Possibly, but pickpockets pick pockets the motherfuckest.

Quote from: Sam on December 01, 2010, 04:41:58 PM

Quote from: Malifaxis on December 01, 2010, 01:11:05 PM
For each failure, the target of that failure should get a bonus to perceive the next attempt, as well as a bonus to see the thief as well. 

I liked your post except for this. I wanted to say I disagree with the bolded portion unless you mean to see the thief on any FURTHER attempts.
It is already too easy to catch a thief.

That's what I meant.

I didn't have my brain in.

Wow, what a fucked up day.

Thanks for the interpretation, you rock.

Another sentence that's slightly longer than the last.

Quote from: Qzzrbl on December 01, 2010, 08:20:09 PM

Quote from: jhunter on December 01, 2010, 08:10:47 PM
Another thing just occurred to me...if there was a single rogue guild that could do both, they would be able to divide their time between picking pockets and burglarizing apartments instead of being able to rely only on one route of thievery to sustain themselves. Just something to think about.

QuoteStop trying to get burglars that can pickpocket like a motherfucker and have sap, folks.

I've -had- burglars that could pickpocket like a motherfucker.

Possibly, but pickpockets pick pockets the motherfuckest.

So, just to be certain...it's: motherfuck, motherfucker, and motherfuckest?

Quote from: Spider on November 29, 2010, 02:02:40 PM
My vote... REMOVE the burglar guild. Not because they are overpowered or twinked or anything like that. I just don't find them to be an integral part of the world, at least enough to require PC representation, nor a role that is rewarding at all. Personal opinion though.

"I don't have fun when I play Burglars...lets get rid of them."

Not meant to be a flame. Just felt a need to clarify. I have felt very rewarded with some burglar roles. Variety allows all of us dissimilar people to come together and play. (Sub-guilds anyone?)

Quote from: Bilanthri on December 03, 2010, 11:49:51 AM

Quote from: Spider on November 29, 2010, 02:02:40 PM
My vote... REMOVE the burglar guild. Not because they are overpowered or twinked or anything like that. I just don't find them to be an integral part of the world, at least enough to require PC representation, nor a role that is rewarding at all. Personal opinion though.

"I don't have fun when I play Burglars...lets get rid of them."

Not meant to be a flame. Just felt a need to clarify. I have felt very rewarded with some burglar roles. Variety allows all of us dissimilar people to come together and play. (Sub-guilds anyone?)

I agree. I love the burglar class, it's one of favorites, actually. Just because you don't find them integral doesn't mean that others don't. They have a unique take on stealth and weaponry that makes them fun to play.

Burglars are the middle ground between assassin and pick-pocket.  They're good for some things, indeed.

Burglars are pretty much the only way to grief the wealthy and risk-averse.

I just like burglars as a sort of mulitpurpose criminal character. The only thing I think I haven't actually done with one is burglarize someone's place.

Quote from: jhunter on December 03, 2010, 03:24:05 PM
I just like burglars as a sort of mulitpurpose criminal character. The only thing I think I haven't actually done with one is burglarize someone's place.

This.

Haters gonna hate.

Burglar's have a lot of use outside breaking and entering apartments, as already stated in this thread.

Think Indiana Jones, yeah?

Burglar/Acrobat

Or something.

Quote from: Feco on December 04, 2010, 06:58:14 PM
Burglar's have a lot of use outside breaking and entering apartments, as already stated in this thread.

Think Indiana Jones, yeah?

Burglar/Acrobat

Or something.

Indy?  Burglar/Thug special app with....READING!  (Call the Templarate!)

>get hat
You get your signature hat.
>wear hat
You are awesome.

Quote from: Feco on December 04, 2010, 06:58:14 PM
Burglar's have a lot of use outside breaking and entering apartments, as already stated in this thread.

Think Indiana Jones, yeah?

Burglar/Acrobat

Or something.

Burglar/Scavenger.