Let me start off by saying that I've only been playing for a few months now, so my perception of the game might be flawed. Everything I'm saying here is from first-hand accounts I've had with other players (all of whom are far more knowledgeable of the game than I am) and that while I may be wrong, I'd wish the Arm fanatics to take things easy. After all, this is just a game.
So, suiciding. It seems to be a lot more common than I thought. I've made a handful of OOC player connections over the past few months. I've met twinks and diehards, in-game legends and in-game nobodies, people that have been playing for years and people who have only been playing marginally longer than I have. Throughout all of these different players though, there seems to be one general rule of thumb:
If you have shitty stats, kill your character and make another one.
This technique is called suiciding, and although I've heard it's frowned upon, I have yet to see or hear of any kind of disciplinary action taken against it.
I personally have many reasons to suicide, as well as many reasons not to.
Pros-
*high stats makes playing easier
*having high stats makes characters more fun
*with high stats you have a greater chance of being noticed for your abilities, and thus will likely have a more robust role playing experience
*lower chance of being overshadowed by other, better statted characters
Cons-
*the stat average is absurdly high (IE Extremely Good strength seems to be the new average for fighter characters)
*less interesting overall characters (IE you spend time making a cool character but you end up with shit stats. You suicide and constantly make new characters. Chances are you'll end up with an overall less dynamic character, both description wise and role playing wise)
*chance of being disciplined by Arm staff
I think the overall problem with suiciding is the way stats work. Stats are -way- too important. Stats seem to increase and decrease exponentially, meaning a high statted fighter is going to be vastly superior to the average statted fighter, no matter the difference in playtime between them. Sure, gear comes into play, but then the high statted fighter is going to have access to a much broader array of equipment than the average statted fighter. I'm pretty sure everyone here can attest to the incredible differences between everything extremely good+ and everything very good-.
I'm neither for nor against suiciding. I understand the stigma it holds and I understand that there are players who genuinely get good stat rolls and players who, despite their bad stats, manage to become exceptional characters.
I guess what I'm asking is what are your takes on suiciding? Do you have any ideas as to how we can make suiciding a less enticing option?
I usually only suicide for stats if it makes the character absurdly frustrating to play.
I don't care if people suicide. It's like abortion. I support free choice.
If you don't want to play your character for whatever reason, you have the option to store your character. Staff members prefer that you store rather than suicide.
For some players, stats don't matter. They would like to discuss the merits of roleplaying weakness, and frown upon people who store or suicide based on stats.
For some players, stats matter a lot. They would like to discuss the weakness of the system that prevents them from selecting stats the way they want to select them.
For some players, the fact that staff expects players to wait on staff to be stored irks them. They would like a system that allows self-storage either for all roles or for all roles that are not staff-sponsored.
For some players, suiciding or storing characters on a regular basis may come up in the course of account notes and sponsored roles in a negative manner.
I think I covered everything you could possibly read in past or future discussions of this. While we have a lot on our collective staff plates, the issue of stat selection, storages, and suicides has come up in the past.
Instant Gratification.
That's all that stats are. Good stats mean you come out of the starting gate hard and fast, which seems to be an important thing for people who have a problem keeping a character alive for more than five days playtime. After that initial period, the importance of stats exponentially decreases. This is due to a number of reasons, including but not limited to skill gain, social interaction, character development, long-lived roleplaying scenarios, and a general understanding that getting your PC in to dangerous situations can make it either slightly more powerful or severely dead.
For some players, combat is the enjoyment they get out of the game. Knowing they have bested gith #219 and scrab #23784762 is a very important facet of the game. It makes them feel a quick burst of victory, a swift rush of success. It makes them feel like they've won.
But there is no winning in Armageddon, unless you're Ginka. Every character made will eventually add a few grains to the infinite dunes. Good stats or bad, eventually you'll be stuck in the ears, eyes, nose, throat, and nether-regions of whoever still lives.
If you like that quick take off, stats are important. If you don't, they aren't. As Nyr stated, we do prefer people to store. As for discipline, I have certainly (and will continue to do so) denied players who ask for sponsored roles because I have no faith that if they roll a single below average that they won't take a flying leap off of the first high thing on to the closest sharp thing. They've already proven time and time again that stats matter more than story, and that's not what I'm searching for in a sponsored role.
I admire the courage that it took to post something like this.
Bad stats are definitely a deterrent for me, but I can't think of a time that I have suicided, due to the fact I'm shit scared of the staff finding out, and like, deleting me. :'(
Quote from: Blackisback on September 09, 2009, 02:15:41 PM
Do you have any ideas as to how we can make suiciding a less enticing option?
I'll go on the middle-of-the-road assumption: you don't need your new PC to be an out-of-the-box killing machine, but you also don't want to be frustrated.
- Know when not to reroll. Strive for playable stats, not awesome stats. One bad stat shouldn't be a dealbreaker--and, with stat ordering, shouldn't be a big surprise.
- Understand the affects of youth. A teenaged character with iffy strength will grow out of it.
If you use stat ordering and have reasonable expectations, it's extremely likely that each of your characters will get very playable stats without staff intervention.
I think all of my suicides and "Oh fuck I can't believe I just did that." run together.
Regardless of my character's wisdom stat, they're only as smart as I am.
Stats matter.
But only up to a point. In this game, it isn't about being uber at whatever. It's about the roleplay. Some people don't appreciate being dealt a statistical handicap via the coding, but other people find it worthwhile to work around such things. So your warrior has bad strength? You can always change your concept a little to compensate. Such a character could be roleplayed in a good many ways that would make the extra challenge fun. And as Shalooonsh pointed out there is less of a difference after that character has some experience under their belt.
Thoughts of this desert elf character I played once make me smile. I think this was back in the day before we got to put the stats in the order of their importance, during the application process. She had poor strength and poor agility too. Gurths would beat her up. I decided she was crazy, and had a good deal of fun interacting with other people with her. She never wore footwear, and it was surprising how many people tried to give the elf something to wear on her feet.
I had the option to let her die in the arena in 'nak and didn't take it. Mostly because I was having fun. Why should stats mean knocking off a perfectly good concept, when a few tweaks can make it fun to play?
Quote from: Yam on September 09, 2009, 03:03:31 PM
Regardless of my character's wisdom stat, they're only as smart as I am.
If exploring is suicide, I've suicided all my best-statted characters. :'(
I really have no problem with it. I do it a lot, especially if I make say...
the brawny, hack-handed man
strength, endurance, agility, wisdom
Then I find out he gets shit on all those. He could only wield one weapon in the first place, so what's even the point of trying to make him the awesome one-handed warrior I envisioned? Or even DECENT one-handed warrior... there is none, unless you enjoy roleplaying out being a total puffball.
In some cases, stats -don't- matter. Like some said - yeah, go with the crappy stats. Make it so they sniff too much spice because your burly warrior is mentally a weakling [scared of getting hit and hitting too hard unless he does some +str spice], or make them a social character. Like an ex-warrior that's taken up begging.
That's really the only way scragging off your char is a less enticing option to me. That and the bad account notes that would probably go with frequent killing-offs after a while.
However, my take on suiciding is that... if I made a character under the pretense of being decent and he rolls shit and he doesn't have the background to go with this, then yep, I'll kill him off. It does make me feel a little bad though... because the staff -do- have to take the time to read those apps.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on September 09, 2009, 03:09:27 PM
Quote from: Yam on September 09, 2009, 03:03:31 PM
Regardless of my character's wisdom stat, they're only as smart as I am.
If exploring is suicide, I've suicided all my best-statted characters. :'(
One of my favorite characters died because he sucked as a ranger, which was due to me sucking as a ranger player. I imagine my staff at the time questioned whether it was a suicide, considering I had kept the character alive for almost two years at that point.
Quote from: Shalooonsh on September 09, 2009, 02:43:31 PM
Instant Gratification.
That's all that stats are. Good stats mean you come out of the starting gate hard and fast, which seems to be an important thing for people who have a problem keeping a character alive for more than five days playtime. After that initial period, the importance of stats exponentially decreases. This is due to a number of reasons, including but not limited to skill gain, social interaction, character development, long-lived roleplaying scenarios, and a general understanding that getting your PC in to dangerous situations can make it either slightly more powerful or severely dead.
For some players, combat is the enjoyment they get out of the game. Knowing they have bested gith #219 and scrab #23784762 is a very important facet of the game. It makes them feel a quick burst of victory, a swift rush of success. It makes them feel like they've won.
But there is no winning in Armageddon, unless you're Ginka. Every character made will eventually add a few grains to the infinite dunes. Good stats or bad, eventually you'll be stuck in the ears, eyes, nose, throat, and nether-regions of whoever still lives.
If you like that quick take off, stats are important. If you don't, they aren't. As Nyr stated, we do prefer people to store. As for discipline, I have certainly (and will continue to do so) denied players who ask for sponsored roles because I have no faith that if they roll a single below average that they won't take a flying leap off of the first high thing on to the closest sharp thing. They've already proven time and time again that stats matter more than story, and that's not what I'm searching for in a sponsored role.
I see where you're going with this. I guess my problem is that I expect my characters to last, and having low stats means I'm that much less likely to do so. If I'm going to die in the first few hours of play, I might as well die immediately and try again.
Quote from: Nyr on September 09, 2009, 03:24:01 PM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on September 09, 2009, 03:09:27 PM
Quote from: Yam on September 09, 2009, 03:03:31 PM
Regardless of my character's wisdom stat, they're only as smart as I am.
If exploring is suicide, I've suicided all my best-statted characters. :'(
One of my favorite characters died because he sucked as a ranger, which was due to me sucking as a ranger player. I imagine my staff at the time questioned whether it was a suicide, considering I had kept the character alive for almost two years at that point.
Crap. I've barely kept a character alive for two weeks.
I've never suicided a character for stats, though I've come close a few times from IC happenings. I don't think I would ever kill a character just because of stats, because I think about them too much before hand. I -would- be really disappointed though, and if they were particularly unplayable, more likely to put them in risky situations.
Of course, I haven't had a totally bad stat situation, except with my first PC (a guild_warrior Byn sergeant with BA strength and agility), but he doesn't count because I didn't realize the impact of stats back then. My most frustrating one yet was a human Whiran with poor agility, just because the severely limited inv space DROVE ME FUCKING NUTS. But in his case, his god-like wisdom, strength and endurance rolls made up for it.
I guess my thoughts on the matter are that stats can have a really big effect on a character, and I understand why people would suicide for a better roll. I don't think I'd ever do that, though.
Quote from: Blackisback on September 09, 2009, 03:27:46 PM
I see where you're going with this. I guess my problem is that I expect my characters to last, and having low stats means I'm that much less likely to do so. If I'm going to die in the first few hours of play, I might as well die immediately and try again.
This is highly dependent upon the type of character that you play, as well as how risky you tend to play them. It's extremely easy to have a long-lived PC if you're willing to be patient and accept a gradual progression over a longer period of time. It sounds like you might be putting your characters into situations that they probably aren't skilled enough to survive, but have gotten lucky with some decent stat roll and perhaps have begun to believe they are necessary to achieve success.
I would highly suggest playing a non-combat role sometime, which doesn't really depend upon
any stats just to see whether that comes to change your perception of what is
possible and what marks a fun/good character. I know that helped for me.
-LoD
Nah, you can last with low stats, though it's a bit harder to do so.
I had an assassin last about 30 days and a ranger last about 40 days and they both had low strength and endurance stats. I intended for both of those characters to have high agility, though, and it helped a lot to just make them make sense. Stats tend to compensate for each other, and it's fairly easy to figure out how to get a certain type of roll if you desperately needed it for a concept (as in, if you want high wisdom and endurance you could do it; if you wanted well-rounded stats all around it's also possible).
I think the problem people see with suiciding is that it's not an IC action since Zalanthans tend to preserve their own lives (except for interesting cultural cases). I see it as a problem when suicides involve other players. It's when another PC spots the body and has to deal with just finding out someone they saw at the Gaj yesterday and shared a drink with is dead, or when they profit from it. It's when a suicidal PC attacks another PC and severely wounds them just to attract the soldiers.
Basically, if you absolutely must kill yourself, do it away from other people. Hey, kind of like my view of suicide IRL.
Stats matter over the long term, as well.
For example, agility clearly lends a bonus to stealth skills. Assuming all race/guild combos have the same maximum skill cap, and assuming wisdom doesn't affect the maximum skill cap, the race with the highest agility, or the person with the highest agility roll will have a higher total cap. Whether the extra 2, 5, 10, or whatever points you gain from your statroll gives you a perceptible advantage probably depends on the skill in question.
Strength, in particular, is an incredibly important stat if you're planning on getting into a fight. It dictates how much armor you can wear and at what encumbrance. It dictates how heavy your weapons can be, and by extension how -good- the weapons you use can be (since as a general rule, heavier weapons tend to be better), and how many of them you can carry. It dictates how much extra water, food, and supplies you can carry with you before you start taking penalties. It determines (in conjunction with agility...but clearly strength plays the major role) how much damage you will do, perhaps even your to-hit roll. It determines which bows you can use, and how much damage you do with the throw skill.
(That being said: -great- strength isn't essential to success. I think a lot of my clanmates would be pretty surprised at my current character's actual strength roll.)
Agility is also an incredibly important stat when it comes to defense...the difference in both out-of-the-box and long-term dodging (and perhaps even parrying and shield use) capability and damage avoidance between high and low agility (even within the same race) PCs is almost patently obvious once you've played more than one long-term combat-oriented character.
That's not to say that someone with low strength/agility can't, over time, become much better than someone with high strength/agility...however, over an equal amount of time, the PC with higher stats will always be better (ceteris paribus). Furthermore, once you hit your guild maximums, that higher-statted character will retain those advantages indefinitely...and these advantages can be HUGE. We're talking about the difference between being able to a) kill a tarantula while taking only one or two blows in return and b) being able to tank 3 tarantulas at very heavy encumbrance after drinking two bottles of flame without even getting hit, or the difference between a) being able to OHK even sturdy dwarves with a backstab and b) barely being able to bring an ancient, decrepit half-elf to "poor" condition with a backstab.
Whether this affects your enjoyment of the game, on the other hand, is a personal matter. I've only had 2 stat rolls (that I can remember) out of my 70-some past characters that so seriously affected my enjoyment that I actually suicided them. One was a minimum-age desert elf who rolled below-average or poor everything (before the stat-aging system was implemented), who couldn't use a weapon heavier than 3 or 4 stone, and who would literally bounce dozens of consecutive attacks on tregils. Another was a half-elf who had pretty much the same problem.
I'll admit that I've suicided for other reasons, though....usually for circumstances that lead to exceptional boredom that have nothing to do with stats or skills or anything but the path I happened to take the character down.
Rather than suiciding, if you are really set on ridding yourself of your PC you can just play dangerously. Con nobles and templars. Tell people off at the Gaj. Commit crimes. There are plenty of ways to ensure your PC will be dead before two or three days played which are way more fun–and way more believable–than simply bashing the first NPC red-robe you see.
.
Quote from: Greve on September 09, 2009, 04:50:07 PM
I never heard of anyone ever doing it on SoI or Harshlands, for example.
It happened all the time, over stats or boredom or whatever other reasons. The ability for players to retire their own characters reduced it a lot.
.
If I had a character that relied on having a "useful" particular stat, and it ended up "poor" then I would -consider- suiciding if a reroll didn't fix it. However, I've never had that happen. All my rangers have had "useful" rangerly stats. All my merchants have had "useful" merchantly stats. In other words, the "primary stats" that are most closely associated with being a "serviceable" main-guild, have always been some degree of "better" than average.
However also, I've never tried to play a half-giant merchant. I imagine anyone who does, will find difficulty with sucky wisdom, even if they roll an AI. I've never tried to play a desert elf warrior. I imagine anyone who does, will find difficulty with inferior strength, even if they roll an AI.
On the other hand, that HG merchant will never have too much trouble fighting his way out of competition with another merchant. And that desert elf warrior will probably be the envy of all his tribemates when it comes to beating something over the head with a blunt object.
So it really does depend - but if I rolled up a desert elf ranger/archer, and ended up with "poor" agility and couldn't find an appropriate bow, I'd consider suicide/store. Otherwise, I don't really give all -that- much thought to stats.
Personally, I suicide if I roll less than D cups.
Wanting better stats enough to kill your own character to make a new one seems to me to go against the very spirit of the game. I don't think enabling that kind of behavior would be productive. If it's just that people want better stats, imagine if everyone had the stats that they really wanted. Would that make the game better or worse? I think it'd make the game worse. Is it just to make people happy? It isn't possible to please everyone.
Some more cons to add to the list:
Wastes the suicider's time
Wastes staff's time
Disrupts the game world/economy which in turn disrupts everyone that plays in some degree.
Plus it breeds a spirit of trying to gaming the system in the person that does this kind of thing, because they are trying to 'beat the system'. I generally find that when I play with this kind of spirit I'd be better off seeking a sense of achievement elsewhere and coming back to this game to roleplay. Many people play the game to 'win it', they might get close, but they never win it. They are only left wanting and are more disappointed the harder they try.
Fixing/changing stats isn't going to fix attitudes and motives for playing.
Yeh, just be happy they put stat ordering in. I remember how many people were against it back in the day. I wasn't one of them, but I still remembered the complaints and arguments against it.
I have suicided before. I won't ever again. Once I got the hang of things and the way everybody had a story, stats or not, there just wasn't a point anymore.
Eh... it's something i've considered, seeing as how my character's pretty much a slow, out of shape weakling trying to play warrior. His only benefit is being a near-genius, but that isn't quite having the benefit I'd hoped.
I never expected him to survive more than a few minutes, but he has. I don't particularly want to throw out everything my guy's done ICly, but damn it sucks getting stomped on by people that I've practiced way more than.
Being able to order your stats, and then reroll, basically gives 8 chances to get at least one great stat where it really matters.
And I have found that two of the four stats don't matter much at all, and of the two stats generally considered the most important, one of those (contrary to popular belief) can effectively become worthless, at least fighting wise, depending on how long you survive. (Hint, it has to do with offense/defense). There are a couple more things underneath the surface that will make you continue to improve in certain areas, besides stats or skills as well. There are in-game ways to make up for stats. One is easy and readily available, and the other is hard and difficult, but quite do-able given the effort. There are also other 'gickery' things that can raise stats. Seriously, I'd wager few templars ever had to worry about their stats...
In fact, all the 'class' karma roles aren't really stat dependent at all. The elemental gickers, sorcs, mindbenders...I can't really think of any instance where with stat ordering and a reroll they can't get what they need to dominate the game if played right. There is such immense power at their disposal as to really make no difference in the long run. They will also have the easiest time using other in game methods to change them.
There are three race karma roles (not counting halflings) where stats can make a difference. Without getting into specifics, a mul will be badass no matter what. I can't really see any kind of circumstance where a mul wouldn't dominate any kind of physical class, even if he rolled poors in every single stat. Half-giants are always going to suck in agility and wisdom as to not make a difference either way hardly, and are always going to be amazing in strength and endurance. Even a below average strength warrior half-giant will easily slaughter meks, silt horrors and bahamets, etc. I've seen it.
The one karma race where stats can really make or break you are desert elves. Getting shitty strength as a delf can make for a shitty life. Also, rangers probably benefit the most from high stats in general, and most delves are rangers. Assassins too, kinda, sorta...But they can definitely do what the need to do, almost regardless of stats, if played right. Since plenty of elves have made great assassins despite their strength, and agility is not crucial to what they do best.
Getting a good HP roll is nice too. Especially the difference it makes in the long run. And hell, after all this, a lot of roles don't depend on stats at all. In fact, the most powerful roles in the game, do not. And they have a legion of NPC and PC killers to protect them. There are a lot of these roles available for play.
That said. I tend to play very dangerously and sometimes impetuously. When I roll great stats (which happens fairly rarely) do I feel so overwhelmed and lucky, that I will take exceptional care to not die stupidly? Yes. Maybe I should treat them all the same, but I'm not perfect. I do play much more conservatively, carefully and smartly, if I get unusually fortunate, to try and make it last as long as possible. Though, I had an AI strength PC die retardedly recently as well. Sigh. That made me a bit more paranoid with my new PC.
It's very rare that anyone should be able to get an adult PC with a 'poor' in their 'most important stat', since your stats are modified somewhat based on your class. I've only ever once got a poor-strength warrior, for example. Now that there's also stat-ordering, PCs which are unplayable should be incredibly rare.
I think that if you suicide your character over poor stats, you're missing the thing that makes this such a great game.
Did you put any thought into developing your character, or did you just throw something together because you wanted to get into the game as fast as possible? Did you spend several hours writing up that perfect description, or coming up with a background that is more full and vivid than anything you could explain in the background description area? Have you taken the time to feel out all the little nuances and personality quirks of your character, and thought about all the things you want to accomplish with them? Were you excited about the chance to breathe life into this character?
If you did all of that and you're willing to throw it away because your PC's stats don't match their description, well, I don't know what to say.
If you whipped up a character off the cuff, while in char gen, just because you're between ideas, or still trying to get a feel for the game, or you just want to explore, or you just want to kill gith #249, then, well... to each their own. But, for your next character, you might consider taking a bit of time to develop a deep, three-dimensional character that's more than just a bunch of numbers on a stat sheet.
I'll be honest. I have no problem whatsoever suiciding a character because of lousy stats. To this date I have not done so. The problem is that I get so involved with the character, spending so much time building up its personality, connections, and skills, that I don't have the heart to restart it on my own.
Your strength is below average, your agility is below average,
your wisdom is poor, and your endurance is average.
Those were the stats of my most favorite character, now deceased. He didn't have much playtime, but he was damn important to quite a few people, and able to hold his own in a fight.
I would advocate for being able to select your abilities on a point-value system, but I've seen enough statwhores in my D&D games to know that's mostly a bad idea. Same thing with having permanent increases readily available in game. In the end, I think the best solution would be to put in a request to staff saying "I'm not having any fun with my below average agility warrior because he can't fulfill his duties well. He's supposed to be a <insert character outline here> and the agility is seriously hampering that. Could I get a boost to it?" This would be more an OOC request, as opposed to "He's been pumping weights for two months. Pump his strength please."
This would let staff screen though requests, as well as put up a sufficient roadblock to prevent people from abusing the system somehow.
I would possibly consider storing, if my character's start and reroll stats both didn't match my concept for her, but with stat ordering I don't see this happening often, if at all. This would only happen if, based on the stats, the character could NOT have the background I'd written, or thought up for her. If I put so much time into a background, I want the character to at least plausibly match it.
I think suiciding would be a bad way to go, though. You can always store. Sure, it might take an extra little bit, but if you're playing this game regularly at all, it's not like you're totally devoid of free time or something.
I've allowed my characters to live dangerously when their stats are bad.
wait ... I allow 'all' of my characters to live dangerously.
Nevermind.
I have had exactly one character that had an "unplayable" stat, but this was due to the race/guild combination that I chose, and was before stat ordering. Even then I was able to "fix" it due to knowledge of the game and continue on.
That race/guild combination type is the only one that I can think of that could potentially leave you with an "unplayable" character.
I find it sad that one player can know what the "new average" is for any stat. Too much OOC - but that' the new Arm, I guess.
I've suicided two PC's to date. Neither has been over their stats.
PC 1: Felt like she killed her daughter and jumped off the Shield Wall. Head first. (Staff assisted.)
I actually -hated- suiciding that PC. To this date, she's had, IIRC, my best stats so far. Not to mention how very, very much I enjoyed not only playing her but the interactions she had. I actually ragequit Arm for like 2 months after that, then stored 3 PC's in a row because I simply didn't enjoy them and couldn't get into the concepts, at all.
PC 2: The PC before my current one. She lasted about 8 hours. I suicided her because -everyone- in the city-state acted like they already knew her and kept asking if she was secretly a <guild> (which she was, but so was the pc before that that everyone was treating her like). Now, half of the fun in Arm for me is the -different- dynamics my different PCs get to build with those around them. She was robbed of both that, and the entirety of her intended concept by 3 hours played. Finally, she went out walking and still managed to outrun a <animal> before the<otheranimal>got her. Because she wouldn't have simply been like 'Oh, a <animal>, let's sit here and stare at it.'. She got chased down and eaten. Because I couldn't bring myself to let her just let herself die to the first animal.
But to each his own.
Quote from: DustMight on September 09, 2009, 08:24:55 PM
I find it sad that one player can know what the "new average" is for any stat. Too much OOC - but that' the new Arm, I guess.
Actually, if you roll five characters, with the same priority roll and the same class, you know. It's not
that hard to figure out.
I assert that an n of five is likely to have too large a confidence interval to make conclusive generalizations about the true mean stat.
I played a Haruch Kemad elven crimelord with 3 poor stats and 1 BA stat.
It was my favorite character to date, and I was really sad to see him go more than my TRIPLE EXCEPTIONAL WARRIOR OF BADASSERY!
There's something about having shitty stats that just makes you say "Fuck it" and play Armageddon like it should be played.
Then again, I am a sucker for awesome stats. It's nice to stand out in the crowd, but it usually leads to you being a leader. So -- Middle of the road, FTW!
I've played some damn long-lived and some damn enjoyable characters in my day, some of which had completely awful stats, and their handicaps didn't stop me from enjoying them at all. It was a rewarding and interesting - and often challenging - RP experience and I don't regret seeing them through to the end at all.
But bollocks if I'm going to play the plucky underdog who just wants to be a badass someday, ma! every goddamn time I roll a combat PC. I'm not ashamed to admit I've stored PCs over stats in the past. I don't tend to put my heart and soul into every single random character concept I whip up, and unless the concept is something real special and interesting to me, I'm not gonna shed any tears over a quick storage if the PC's stats are bad enough that I think it will affect my playing them in a significant way, nor will I hesitate to store if the concept ceases to be interesting to me. I play Armageddon for fun and it isn't very fun to force yourself to roleplay a character that just doesn't entertain you anymore.
I would not advise anyone to store or suicide a character based on horrible stats unless they've actually tried to play a PC with horrible stats before and experienced it. It can be a lot more rewarding and in the case of many guilds you can still end up quite skilled, if that's what you're worried about.
It just sometimes feels a little old hat to me, since I've done it before and it ends up feeling like playing the same character over again, mostly due to my tendency to roll stats that tend toward the crappier end of the bell curve. "Ah, yes, Talia reminds me of my LAST half-elf warrior with poor strength and poor wisdom and below average endurance!"
My two favorite characters in Arm., out of the 80+ I've had, have had what I would considering "average" stats...for one of my characters, that is. Both ended up with a couple above average/average stats, a poor and usually something rather nice.
I frowned when I saw the poor. But I stuck with it. It wasn't worth not having fun because of just a single "bad" stat.
Playing with said "bad" stat helped defined my character a lot better than anything I had done during the creative process of thinking up said character.
What's that quote from Batman Begins? "It's not who I am, but what I do, that defines me"? Something like that. My characters have grown a lot more by doing, than they have by any other means.
And for me, at this stage in my Arm. experience, character development and role-play are far more important than the biggest, baddest stat rolls for that uber Mage or Warrior. But, then again, I'm not playing a combat/physical-conflict oriented role. Maybe my views would change, were I doing so. Then again, maybe not. What might have been, my friend. What might have been...
Quote from: Reiloth on September 10, 2009, 01:51:47 AM
I played a Haruch Kemad elven crimelord with 3 poor stats and 1 BA stat.
It was my favorite character to date, and I was really sad to see him go more than my TRIPLE EXCEPTIONAL WARRIOR OF BADASSERY!
There's something about having shitty stats that just makes you say "Fuck it" and play Armageddon like it should be played.
Then again, I am a sucker for awesome stats. It's nice to stand out in the crowd, but it usually leads to you being a leader. So -- Middle of the road, FTW!
Having those shit stats as a Haruch Kemad crimelord probably helped more than hinder him in surviving, psychologically speaking.
Played a character who was known to most as Nez. (Over a year ago). The guy rolled a poor endurance and had awful health. Ended up rping out all kinds of shakes and maladies, which resulted in very fun plots and twists. So yeah, poor stats 'can' result in awesome RP.
Played a Ranger with poor strength ... attacked a gurth. For first 5 minutes ... he emoted. For next 15 minutes, I kind of ... looked at the screen dully. For 'another' 15 minutes ... I was reading my emails. Was it fun ... I gotta say ... not really. And all that just to get gurth into a 'shell'. I'll admit ... I wasnt enjoying it one bit.
I haven't ever, and won't.
I think it makes stats even more important, by artificially raising the average. But more importantly, I just think it goes against the spirit of the game. It's playing Armageddon on easy mode.
I've had some horrible stats in characters who really depended on stats, but fortunately I've never experienced unplayable stats. I guess if I did get stats that were truly unplayable, I'd email to request a bump. In an ideal world, chargen could be tweaked so unplayable stats simply could never occur. As it is now, with stat ordering, I suspect unplayable stats are already exceedingly rare.
One good thing about threads like this is that they counter the false assumption people make that "everyone" does stuff like this (which I think, unfortunately, becomes a rationale for people to keep doing it).
Quote from: MarshallDFX on September 09, 2009, 11:10:16 PM
I assert that an n of five is likely to have too large a confidence interval to make conclusive generalizations about the true mean stat.
Ok, ten.
Point is, OOC is not required to establish an average on some code mechanic. And this mechanic has been in long enough for people to have had 30 characters, 40 even.
Quote from: Blackisback on September 09, 2009, 02:15:41 PM
I've made a handful of OOC player connections over the past few months. I've met twinks and diehards, in-game legends and in-game nobodies, people that have been playing for years and people who have only been playing marginally longer than I have. Throughout all of these different players though, there seems to be one general rule of thumb:
If you have shitty stats, kill your character and make another one.
It's good to debate this type of mentality, but I think there's also something to be said about how you came to this information and perhaps the quality of the source. This is a completely separate issue, but you may want to reconsider entering into OOC conversations with other players -- especially those that are touting this party line. I also think flurry's point is especially true here -- which is that this type of behavior is not necessarily "common" or practiced by "everyone". I've never stat-suicided a character myself, and believe that with the new stat-ordering system, it's very difficult to get unplayable stats. And if I've ever felt that I received an unplayable stat, I've always found the Staff to be accommodating in helping me enjoy the role.
That might be because I don't frequently make any stat-related requests. I've never sent in RP logs asking for stat bumps, and I've never asked for "rerolls" or anything later in the character's life hoping for some better stats. My stats have always been good enough in the areas where they count for me to be successful. The most I've done is asked for one stat to be lowered and another raised after rerolling if I failed to reach some minimal level (i.e. I couldn't wield any of the bows for sale in the city) that was going to be integral to my intended character (ranger/archer). And that's only happened to me once.
Based on the random stats I've received in my last 10 characters or so, it seems more likely to me that some people simply place to high a value on stats than there truly being some major issue with the stats themselves or the stat-ordering system. I've made a few suggestions in the past on how I think they could improve stat-related issues, but I'm fairly content with the current setup.
-LoD
Personally, I'm shocked that everybody he talked to thought it was ok to suicide.
My impression was that this is also a newbie / veteran divide on survivability. Now that I can keep a character alive more than two or three days, I'm not as insistent on higher stats. It took learning a new playstyle for me, though.
disclaimer: I have never suicided, even if it ever looked that way. :(
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on September 10, 2009, 03:17:39 PM
Personally, I'm shocked that everybody he talked to thought it was ok to suicide.
It's always the same crowd that says it. Perhaps I'm jaded.
I swear I never suicided my poor-strength delf, Looonie. I loved that widdle guy. :(
Quote from: Shalooonsh on September 10, 2009, 03:58:18 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on September 10, 2009, 03:17:39 PM
Personally, I'm shocked that everybody he talked to thought it was ok to suicide.
It's always the same crowd that says it. Perhaps I'm jaded.
Then I'm jaded too. A lot has changed since 2004, but not this.
Quote from: Clearsighted on September 10, 2009, 02:35:53 AM
Quote from: Reiloth on September 10, 2009, 01:51:47 AM
I played a Haruch Kemad elven crimelord with 3 poor stats and 1 BA stat.
It was my favorite character to date, and I was really sad to see him go more than my TRIPLE EXCEPTIONAL WARRIOR OF BADASSERY!
There's something about having shitty stats that just makes you say "Fuck it" and play Armageddon like it should be played.
Then again, I am a sucker for awesome stats. It's nice to stand out in the crowd, but it usually leads to you being a leader. So -- Middle of the road, FTW!
Having those shit stats as a Haruch Kemad crimelord probably helped more than hinder him in surviving, psychologically speaking.
Well, actually, his 'position' made him seem much more powerful than he actually was, and he never killed a single PC, just had other people do it. So his power was more in what people assumed he could do, rather than what he -could- do.
It was a ton of fun. It was right before the HORRIBLE MAGICKAL TIMES OF THE LABYRINTH CIRCA 2007/08.
My best character ever had horrible stats.
Suiciding for stats is lame.
I've never really suicided ever. It may have appeared to the Imms that I did, but I've never died on purpose.
And suiciding for stats is dumb as hell. Some of my favorite PCs didn't have great stats, just mediocre.
Quote from: Halcyon on September 10, 2009, 03:49:42 PM
My impression was that this is also a newbie / veteran divide on survivability. Now that I can keep a character alive more than two or three days, I'm not as insistent on higher stats. It took learning a new playstyle for me, though.
I think this is a valid distinction as well. When I first started, I knew -nothing- but what I figured out on my own. So, if I made a ranger with VG strength, and I could kill a tregil, and then made another with below average strength and couldn't.. I admit I would suicide because I didn't understand what was going on.
Often, now, I hope certain stats are lower, because I know how to survive and how to "play the game" enough to not care that my endurance was maxed, giving me that extra hit to flee.
Quote from: Reiloth on September 10, 2009, 07:00:41 PM
It was a ton of fun. It was right before the HORRIBLE MAGICKAL TIMES OF THE LABYRINTH CIRCA 2007/08.
You are responsible for a lot of those horrible times yourself, Mister dual-[REDACTED]-wielding, multiple-[REDACTED]-wearing [REDACTED UNUSUAL CREATURE TYPE].
I want a spike pit in every town for my mis-created pc's. A gortok pit, a 24-7 arena floor and someone to murder me on stand-by.
Nah...should have bad stats arena!!!
Quote from: KankWhisperer on September 10, 2009, 11:08:06 PM
Nah...should have bad stats arena!!!
Yeah, the winners are sentenced to a long life because obviously their stats aren't that bad.
I have a story, similar to Reiloth. A character with terrible TERRIBLE stats, yet had the most fun with.
I did a fair bit of suiciding. Not that I'm proud of it at all, but I came into the game with a D&D maxxing mindset. Even though my tabletop crowd 'tried' to roleplay, a fighter under 18/90 strength was perceived as a pussy. Took me a while to shed that off. Also, guilty of suiciding chars with EXCELLENT stats, I'm talking about exceptionalx3 + extremely good. I had this problem where I wanted to experience as much as possible and wanted to play everything at once. Chronic restarter syndrome. It all backfired, I'm playing the game for more than a year, maybe even two, and have yet to see a plot. I had some wonderful opportunities but I blew them. So, forget the imms and their notes, it all comes to bite your ass in the end.
I don't suicide for stats, I suicide to make a new character.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on September 09, 2009, 10:27:47 PM
I've suicided two PC's to date. Neither has been over their stats.
PC 1: Felt like she killed her daughter and jumped off the Shield Wall. Head first. (Staff assisted.)
I actually -hated- suiciding that PC. To this date, she's had, IIRC, my best stats so far. Not to mention how very, very much I enjoyed not only playing her but the interactions she had. I actually ragequit Arm for like 2 months after that, then stored 3 PC's in a row because I simply didn't enjoy them and couldn't get into the concepts, at all.
Why did you suicide if you hated doing it? Things like that, I mean personal traumas, are cool and could have done wonders for your char's future development. Infinitely better when they happen in game than when merely put in the background.
Because -not- suiciding her would have been OOC (out of her character), no matter -how- much I wanted her to live.
And if the people who left her there had hung around, she likely wouldn't have done it.
But that's just how shit happened.
Quote from: jstorrie on September 10, 2009, 10:19:35 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on September 10, 2009, 07:00:41 PM
It was a ton of fun. It was right before the HORRIBLE MAGICKAL TIMES OF THE LABYRINTH CIRCA 2007/08.
You are responsible for a lot of those horrible times yourself, Mister dual-[REDACTED]-wielding, multiple-[REDACTED]-wearing [REDACTED UNUSUAL CREATURE TYPE].
Hey man, just because I was mister dual-[REDACTED]-wielding, multiple-[REDACTED]-wearing [REDACTED UNUSUAL CREATURE TYPE] doesn't mean I wasn't a stand up guy. And I totally didn't contribute to that, I just uh...Encouraged it sort of.
You were only a stand-up guy in bipedal form.
I'm actually pretty sure he had sex with dead people in bipedal form.
Quote from: Yam on September 09, 2009, 02:27:56 PM
I usually only suicide for stats if it makes the character absurdly frustrating to play.
I don't care if people suicide. It's like abortion. I support free choice.
I kinda care if people suicide. I go through these apps, correcting grammar, spelling, and narrative issues.
If you're just going to kill the character off, I could go do something productive with my life instead.
He must be really upset, only 1 app approved today!
Oops, 2 now.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on September 11, 2009, 05:09:04 PM
Because -not- suiciding her would have been OOC (out of her character), no matter -how- much I wanted her to live.
And if the people who left her there had hung around, she likely wouldn't have done it.
But that's just how shit happened.
I remember on my first character, he was just beginning a suicide attempt when his best friend wandered into the apartment they shared. That kind of put a stop to it. I wonder if the other guy realized what exactly was happening?
Though I pretty much believe now that suicide would be anathema to almost all people in Zalanthas, sometimes it's just the way things go. Sometimes it -would- be against character to stop it.
I'm surprised I don't have account notes about how often I suicide my characters because I imagine about 3/4 of my character deaths are so stupid they look like they were suicides.
Like the time I was sitting there, watching my assassin get chewed on by a scrab and said, "Hey look! The scrab is biting me but my HP total isn't going down!"
It was about one bite before the mantis head that I realised I was looking at my stamina points.
Quote from: Oleupata on September 12, 2009, 12:52:51 AM
I kinda care if people suicide. I go through these apps, correcting grammar, spelling, and narrative issues.
If you're just going to kill the character off, I could go do something productive with my life instead.
Fuck yes. I feel that.
Quote from: Majikal on September 11, 2009, 09:37:40 PM
Quote from: Yam on September 09, 2009, 02:27:56 PM
I usually only suicide for stats if it makes the character absurdly frustrating to play.
I don't care if people suicide. It's like abortion. I support free choice.
I have stored characters with stats some people would die for. (I was so bored)
I have killed a character whose stats make me die. (literally, my first char to ever see what is down that well. I want to see the sewers, ok? Wasn't watching hp...)
Stats may command my interest for the first playing day, but after that, I would store only if I am bored. Usually, I am bored enough to not care about waiting 1 week for a staff to store my char so I can make a new one. Usually do this between long lived chars. After each one lived ones, there are around 3-5 stored characters within one playing day.
If people want to suicide.... can you do it near me so I can get your boots pls?
Oh, so yes, free choice.
Quote from: Fathi on September 12, 2009, 01:24:56 AM
I'm surprised I don't have account notes about how often I suicide my characters because I imagine about 3/4 of my character deaths are so stupid they look like they were suicides.
Like the time I was sitting there, watching my assassin get chewed on by a scrab and said, "Hey look! The scrab is biting me but my HP total isn't going down!"
It was about one bite before the mantis head that I realised I was looking at my stamina points.
I bet I can beat Fathi for absolutely retarded deaths.
Quote from: Fathi on September 12, 2009, 01:24:56 AM
Like the time I was sitting there, watching my assassin get chewed on by a scrab and said, "Hey look! The scrab is biting me but my HP total isn't going down!"
Proof the Highlord exists!
I have never had to wait a week before getting stored, even if I was storing a character in ongoing plots for whatever reason. Staff has always been incredibly accommodating and usually I've gotten characters stored faster than it takes to get a new character approved.
I've only suicided a character once and it had nothing to do with stats, just boredom and being rather new to the game. It took a good few hours to actually die, and I even had a little mini adventure on the way. In fact, it was proving so difficult to die that I actually decided to live. Of course, it was on the way to the city around the corner that I encountered stuff that immediately killed my character.
I wouldn't call that a suicide so much as irony.
Haha.
I have never suicided. Died because of bad stats, perhaps, yes, done suicidal things, yes, but never intentionally killed off a character. I generally put a lot of thought into my characters and grow attached to them before they hit the gameworld- even if they are a weakling or will snap like a twig.
I mean the thing is stats really don't matter a great deal if you know how to keep a character alive and viable. Yes, each of the stats are important and having good stats can make things nice. And not having to worry about carrying stuff or getting one-shotted by a tregil, etc, is cool. But stats are probably viable at two positions: for getting an edge in the beginning and at the top reaches of characterdom (you getting an edge for having 40 more hp than the other uber warrior you're fighting). In the middle, it's really your skills (gained and lack-of both) keeping you above the newbies and getting whacked on by the powerful. And since the majority of characters are new to middling- keeping a character alive and gaining those skills puts you in the advantaged group.
My two sid.
I'd believe that rot about skills > stats, but being a 50-day old character who gets regular combat training suddenly trounced by someone with ZERO combat skill and experience, purely because of stats, proves the sentiment wrong. Sorry. No. Wrong.
Disclaimer: Stats do matter, if you are talking about different races.
Quote from: Twilight on September 14, 2009, 09:01:31 PM
Disclaimer: Stats do matter, if you are talking about different races.
Yeah, it's not exactly the same thing when we're talking about a 50 day warrior humanfighting a 5 day warrior mul/half-giant. All they need is one hit.
Seems like a bit of a derail.
As much as everyone cares about the genital-club contest going on about people's 50 day whatevers, I'm trimming down the fat on this thread to get it back on topic.
So by all means, continue without your syntheticsight modifiers.