Cooking is extremely difficult on Armageddon. You need to "train" your cooking skill for a long time before you can reliably do the simplest things, and the only reason it is at all usable by a new character is the fact that the most basic recipies tend to yield some result even when failing. Sure, you can sustain yourself on travel cakes, but give a ranger a slab of meat and he's probably utterly incapable of cooking it if he doesn't have at least half a dozen days of playtime on him.
I think that rudimentary cooking, such as grilling meat or baking simple forms of bread or anything that requires only one component, should be much easier. Sure, we don't have electric ovens and cast iron frying pans, but cooking meat by a fire really isn't that hard. And I imagine that the average Zalanthan would be much more likely to have some ability in that regard than the average Earthling. Leave the comlicated dishes hard to do, noone needs Flame Cheese or Elf Fingers in order to survive. It'll make a skilled cook no less impressive and an unskilled cook much less pathetic.
I just grow really tired of burning the first 300 pieces of meat I attempt when I make a new character.
Tools.
Tools aside, I agree with Good Gortok.
Someone who has been cooking for most of their life should not still be burning a simple steak to a charred crisp.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on March 15, 2009, 03:37:56 PM
Tools.
> hold torch
> craft steak into grilled
Hmm.. still becomes a charred crisp.
I would just like to see some modification to the results for low end cooking. Not a change in difficulty or a bump in the skill. Just change the end result so that instead of burning meat to an almost inedibly burned crisp have it returned as a charred piece of meat. Still edible and able to sustain a person, but not cooked to perfection - it is a little tough and there are a few burned pieces around the edges so it is obviously not cooked by a chef, but it is also not the nuclear meltdown now produced. It's the difference between going to a good steak restaurant and visiting your mother-in-law's place for a steak.
From what I see most people watch meat like a hawk while attempting to cook it, and having it burnt so completely makes little sense.
If cooking successfully were made easier, the prices merchants pay for cooked items should be reduced proportionally, I think.
emote Sliding from ~branch as it suddenly catches in the flames, @ watches ~mass fall into the flames with a scowl.
'(frowning) Great, I'm not goin' in there after a tiny hunk of meat, no fuckin' thank you.
junk mass (as the flames consume the meat) [charring it into oblivion]
You can still eat charred masses, and they will eventually fill you up. From what I've seen, there aren't many recipes that result in complete failure without some kind of edible result.
Tools aside, I agree that all guilds should be given a higher starting skill in cooking.
True, I just imagine any kinda situation that could burn a slab of meat so badly so quickly you didn't notic until if was too late was the kinda situation that made a person weight their options: shitty-tasting burned ass meat which I've got to retrieve somehow from HOT ass flames, or... this sack of roots and mushrooms and mosses. Fuck that burned ass meat. The fire's so hungry, the fire can have it. heh, that's just my take.
But I seriously back the idea of making cooking less destructive with the simpler recipes.
I've always assumed that without metal, your choice of cooking would be limited to tossing a piece of meat over/next to a direct fire. It'll likely char half of the meat to a crisp, while leaving the other half still raw. So, um, yeah, a torch should be a valid tool :P
Quote from: SMuz on March 15, 2009, 07:56:15 PM
I've always assumed that without metal, your choice of cooking would be limited to tossing a piece of meat over/next to a direct fire. It'll likely char half of the meat to a crisp, while leaving the other half still raw. So, um, yeah, a torch should be a valid tool :P
What, no tinfoil?
Besides, you could totally make a "grill" out of bone, and if you're using one of these mythical grills, you shouldn't be charring meat at all.
Quote from: Riev on March 15, 2009, 08:21:10 PM
Quote from: SMuz on March 15, 2009, 07:56:15 PM
I've always assumed that without metal, your choice of cooking would be limited to tossing a piece of meat over/next to a direct fire. It'll likely char half of the meat to a crisp, while leaving the other half still raw. So, um, yeah, a torch should be a valid tool :P
What, no tinfoil?
Besides, you could totally make a "grill" out of bone, and if you're using one of these mythical grills, you shouldn't be charring meat at all.
There is nothing mythical about them. I know a place where there is currently THREE.
And you WILL still burn meat on them. Think about it. You leave it on there too long? Yeah. Totally burnt. But I don't think burning nearly everything nearly every time is where most people would start.... imo.
Quote from: SMuz on March 15, 2009, 07:56:15 PM
I've always assumed that without metal, your choice of cooking would be limited to tossing a piece of meat over/next to a direct fire. It'll likely char half of the meat to a crisp, while leaving the other half still raw. So, um, yeah, a torch should be a valid tool :P
Just on the off-chance you were serious, metal is not even remotely a necessary requirement for cooking. People have been preparing food for thousands of years with all manner of substances, including but not limited to clay, stone, bone, shell, wood, soil...
Not gonna bother posting any of my previous rants on the subject.
Cooking simple recipes is way, way, way too hard and it stays that way no matter how long your PCs live.
(Also, the failure messages for curing and drying meat are stupid.)
Quote from: Fathi on March 16, 2009, 03:13:47 AM
Not gonna bother posting any of my previous rants on the subject.
Cooking simple recipes is way, way, way too hard and it stays that way no matter how long your PCs live.
(Also, the failure messages for curing and drying meat are stupid.)
I'd be willing to write up new failure messages/objects if it'd help get that changed.
Failure for a lot of things are stupid.
I'm sitting at a table, with a bandage spread out , on the table, before me.
Yet all those fuckers end up in the dirt. Once in a while I'll emote them sticking to my fingers as I pull away or something...but really should be something more open-ended.....the salve not being thick enough or whatever have you.
But yeah, I worked in the fine dining industry for ten years before the Navy, and eh, I dropped food maybe six times, handling way more often than most people do.
Slight derail, but on the topic of "simple recipes":
It'd be nifty if you got a boost in your ability to cook certain dishes (simple dishes) depending on where you choose to start the game. So an 'nakki would be able to cook a decent scrab steak and a Tuluki could stew some tregil livers (or whatever they do up there). Just a one off slight boost and a list of what simple stuff you should know, to help newbies get fed and to ease "hard simple dishes" woe.
Quote from: Fathi on March 16, 2009, 03:13:47 AM
Cooking simple recipes is way, way, way too hard and it stays that way no matter how long your PCs live.
(Also, the failure messages for curing and drying meat are stupid.)
I recently Idea'd that the shriveled mass of meat could have another sdesc and make you more full, and I'm reviving this topic. It's quite outrageous.
Chiming in here as well. Perhaps a solution which has mediocre cooks result in a smaller, less filling portion that's still not a horrible, disgusting mess of doom?
"You manage to overcook the meat."
"The meat is dry, leathery, and has little flavour."
Much more realistic result, since this is how most mediocre cooks end up making their food.
Burning food has got to be the #1 most inefficient waste of attempt to skill bump that I have ever had the misfortune of experiencing game code in my entire life. Watching 100 pieces of raw meat be reduced to 3 pieces of edible food by your clannies, thus basically forcing them to go out and overhunt JUST so that they can feed themselves, is stupid. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid to the extreme, stupid enough that we should just all give up and decide that in Zalanthas, COOKED meat is out of fashion and RAW meat is healthier, tastier, and more filling.
I hate the cooking code, I avoid it like the plague, because I don't need my clannies to starve just because I have to practice my skill and ruin 2 RL week's worth of the hunters' work in a single RL day, in order to actually succeed in cooking something edible.
My characters will either eat raw, or eat whatever the coded cook provides. Whatever is most readily available.
Thanks for the ideas folks. I have put this up for a staff member to take under their belt and do, with myself overseeing the changes. We'll work on improving the experience of cooking.
Thank Tek for great and small favors throughout the known world and beyond.
MORGENES & CO TO THE RESCUE!
Save The Roasted Scrab Strip!
Up With Braised Gortok With Pickled Beets!
Join The Cooking Revolution!
JUST SAY NO TO BURNT MASSES!
Morgenes.... that is one of the most awesome things I've heard in the last week. Thank you!
Also, yay, I love cooking, I've disliked the current system for a while, but man it's gonna be great not to go through 4-5 carru worth of meat to make a steak! :)
Solution: Eat travel cakes until you can make batches regularly. Hell, I've made Silt Sea Stew for a character. It was all the character ate by the end, and that's complicated stuff.
Definitely travel cakes are the way to go, if you can afford to buy flour, or if part of your job isn't to provide food for an entire crew of employees. If you're just starting out and -want- to be good with cooking, definitely..absolutely..positively..go for flour as long as it's available to you cheap.
Unfortunately once you get good at flour, you STILL have to start digging into your crew's raw meat supply, or tuber stash, or grub cache, or fruit bowl, in order to improve beyond being really damned fucking good at making travel cakes. So the solution isn't a solution at all. Thankfully Morgenes is working on that, as he has mentioned in his most recent post.
Aside from what has been mentioned already.
My biggest pet peeve with cooking is that different classes have different max skill levels.
Now Merchant, fine, I can live with them being high.
But why would say a pickpocket have a higher skill level then a burgler?
Though over all the skill level max for most classes is simply set way too low.
Being the poor ranger who finds it easy to get meat but still fails 4/10 tries at 50 days played and thousands of cooking tries.
Bump the max across the board to 75-80% for every class but merchant and give them 95% Then lower the price that merchant NPCs will buy even cooked foods for. Something else I have found to be somewhat silly BTW. When you can sell a pretty common steak to a npc merchant without using haggle for 49 coins. I can see making a living being a cook but man, you should not be able to get noble wealthy selling cooked tubers.
I'm just saying, with a character that I wanted to get good at cooking at... I had no problem keeping myself fed on ONLY things crafted myself. I gave food to people as payment for things because my character could cook fancy stuff. I understand that it's kinda silly not to get anything edible out of an entire carru, but that also goes back to the skinning code. Don't lay the 'we have to overhunt just to feed ourselves' problem just at the foot of the cooking code.
I agree that it is in part, the skinning code at fault. But I maintain cooking is majorly seriously screwed. Actually, any crafting recipe that -can- produce more than 1 of something..SHOULD produce at least one, even on failure.
Travel cakes work that way, and so do fruit slices. I think any meats that you can craft into slices or pieces or "more than one" of something, produce at -least- one, even upon failure. But it isn't always the case, and I never felt comfortable wishing up to ask if it was a bug or if it was intentional.
If I can make "a few" then I should be able to make one with ease, even if I fail to make the rest of them.
ANY recipe, food or otherwise, that allows you to make more than one of should always result in a minimum of one upon failure.
Quote from: Lizzie on June 18, 2009, 02:46:42 PM
ANY recipe, food or otherwise, that allows you to make more than one of should always result in a minimum of one upon failure.
I'd back this for
MOST things, but I wouldn't say all.
I have found the colossal failure of the cooking skill to be so ridiculous over the years that it has become comical. I don't even pretend that I'm going to succeed at the simplest of tasks anymore. When I have a new character who is cooking something, the scenarios go something like this:
Quote>craft hunk into a hunk of cooked meat
You start preparing some food.
>:laughing hysterically, @ throws ~hunk into the fire and jumps up and down on it.
Laughing hysterically, the tressy-tressed lass throws a hunk of meat into the fire and jumps up and down on it.
You burn the meat.
Quote>craft slice slice slice slice into a small cup of kalan jam
You start preparing some food.
>think (a sudden surge of fury) I...I HATE THIS JOB.
Feeling a sudden surge of fury, you think:
"I...I HATE THIS JOB."
>:flings the bowl of fruit onto the kitchen floor and bursts into angry tears.
The carnation-eyed, vine-haired woman flings the bowl of fruit onto the kitchen floor and bursts into angry tears.
In trying to make jam, you spill your work.
>rebel
You rebel from House Kadius.
Quote from: LauraMars on June 18, 2009, 04:29:47 PM
I have found the colossal failure of the cooking skill to be so ridiculous over the years that it has become comical. I don't even pretend that I'm going to succeed at the simplest of tasks anymore. When I have a new character who is cooking something, the scenarios go something like this:
Quote>craft hunk into a hunk of cooked meat
You start preparing some food.
>:laughing hysterically, @ throws ~hunk into the fire and jumps up and down on it.
Laughing hysterically, the tressy-tressed lass throws a hunk of meat into the fire and jumps up and down on it.
You burn the meat.
Quote>craft slice slice slice slice into a small cup of kalan jam
You start preparing some food.
>think (a sudden surge of fury) I...I HATE THIS JOB.
Feeling a sudden surge of fury, you think:
"I...I HATE THIS JOB."
>:flings the bowl of fruit onto the kitchen floor and bursts into angry tears.
The carnation-eyed, vine-haired woman flings the bowl of fruit onto the kitchen floor and bursts into angry tears.
In trying to make jam, you spill your work.
>rebel
You rebel from House Kadius.
:D :D :D
<3 LauraMars
Bump? It looks like there was consensus that this was flawed, but I'm not sure there was ever any changes?
Also, how exactly does one use a grill? Does being in the same room allow it to work its magic?
>get grill
>ep grill
emote walks up to ~grill and tosses on ~meat.
craft meat into grilled scrab steak
That's how you use a grill.
Quote from: Kalden on September 29, 2011, 03:06:13 AM
Bump? It looks like there was consensus that this was flawed, but I'm not sure there was ever any changes?
A good thing to note would be that player consensus on the GDB on a particular topic does not mean that it should necessitate any change. In this case, it did:
Quote from: Morgenes on June 18, 2009, 12:13:07 PM
Thanks for the ideas folks. I have put this up for a staff member to take under their belt and do, with myself overseeing the changes. We'll work on improving the experience of cooking.
A cursory search shows this thread
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35673.0.html
in which it was reviewed a couple of times.
Bump.
Cooking is still balls.
Yep.
Quote from: Synthesis on June 16, 2015, 01:51:28 PM
Bump.
Cooking is still balls.
'Balls' as in good or bad?
The secret to cooking success is doing it in a room that gets a coded bonus to cooking in there. It's sizable enough to make it extremely difficult to fail. But there are a lot of rooms with grills, ovens, and firepits, which don't have this coded bonus.
Quote from: Clearsighted on June 16, 2015, 02:21:55 PM
The secret to cooking success is doing it in a room that gets a coded bonus to cooking in there. It's sizable enough to make it extremely difficult to fail. But there are a lot of rooms with grills, ovens, and firepits, which don't have this coded bonus.
Yeaaaah, that's not a fix.
Someone needs to do the hard, grinding work of going through all the cooking recipes and making the "object into very simply cooked object" recipes yield something like 90-100% success rates under the worst conditions at (journeyman) level.
Quote from: Synthesis on June 16, 2015, 02:29:45 PM
Someone needs to do the hard, grinding work of going through all the cooking recipes and making the "object into very simply cooked object" recipes yield something like 90-100% success rates under the worst conditions at (journeyman) level.
I just went and glanced over the simple meat recipes and nearly all of them are set to either 5% or 10% of skill for difficulty, which is about as low as they can go. Crafting success takes into account the difficulty of the recipe, your base skill, any bonuses you're getting from the room or tools, and then there's a random roll to see if you succeed once those things are factored in.
Changing these recipes further won't help, from what I can see; they've already been as fixed as they can be. I have too much other stuff I'm working on right now to put this particular project on my list, but I do have a general interest in cooking and food in game and I'll keep it in mind to look at.
If there are rooms that you think should give a cooking bonus, we can look at that. I'd suggest sending those through the request tool as clan-related question/requests, directed to the clan that would make sense for the area. E.g., if it's a tavern in Allanak that should go to the southern staff team; if it's a tavern elsewhere it goes to the area team; if it's in a clan area it goes to that team.
Meh. My PC is an amazing cook in the Gaj with (advanced) cooking, but anywhere else I'm shooting 40-50% on "turn a cold piece of meat into a hot piece of meat." No negative modifiers that I can ascertain.
Isn't "amazing in the Gaj" and "so-so everywhere else" kind of indicative of negative modifiers at play? Or were you only using campfires and rooms with grills in them (real or virtual)?
Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 16, 2015, 02:50:02 PM
Isn't "amazing in the Gaj" and "so-so everywhere else" kind of indicative of negative modifiers at play? Or were you only using campfires and rooms with grills in them (real or virtual)?
It shouldn't take a cookhouse to make a damn steak, is what I'm saying.
Quote from: Synthesis on June 16, 2015, 02:56:50 PM
It shouldn't take a cookhouse to make a damn steak, is what I'm saying.
Agreed. I think the "fail" outcome should be a poorly cooked steak, whereas a "succeed" result would be a well-cooked one. Cooking shouldn't really have too many fails imo, unless you're doing really fancy stuff.
Wouldn't it be less work to put some cooking tools in some NPC shops that give a similar bonus? I know there used to be frying pans.
When I figured out that you have to hold tools and therefore have to "hold" the grills, I wasn't sure whether I wanted to laugh or facepalm so hard it'd put Picard to shame.
Quote from: Delirium on June 16, 2015, 05:23:45 PM
"hold" the grills
wut
I thought you just needed one in the room?
Me too, lol.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 16, 2015, 05:26:02 PM
Quote from: Delirium on June 16, 2015, 05:23:45 PM
"hold" the grills
wut
I thought you just needed one in the room?
You would
think. But do the math. It's a "tool" object. Tools have to be held. Unless you're crafting *with* the tool, then it doesn't have to be held.
So....
Yeah. You gotta hold 'em.
Quote from: Delirium on June 16, 2015, 05:28:16 PM
Yeah. You gotta hold 'em.
I don't think that's true anymore. I think you just need to have the item in the room now, and that goes with all tools. http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48231.0.html (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48231.0.html)
It searches your inventory, and then the room, for an appropriate tool...so i interpret that as if there's a tool lying around in the room you'll end up using it.
Quote from: wizturbo on June 16, 2015, 05:32:33 PM
I don't think that's true anymore. I think you just need to have the item in the room now, and that goes with all tools. Trying to look up the announcement on this...was within the last 6 months I think.
I am not a code expert, but I think Delirium is correct for getting the skill bonuses that tools give. Tools can be in your inventory or in the room if they are required for the craft, though. But then you don't get the bonus (I think). Holding the tool would both give you the bonus AND fulfill any tool requirements for the recipe.
Some rooms also give bonuses, as noted. Again...if there's a room that has a grill or other cooking feature but it doesn't seem to give a bonus, that's probably a good thing to discuss with relevant clan staff.
Oh, bummer! And here I thought we could have a workshop of tools, and we wouldn't have to figure out whether an auger or a hammer was the tool that'd give a coded benefit or not.
Quote from: wizturbo on June 16, 2015, 05:38:57 PM
Oh, bummer! And here I thought we could have a workshop of tools, and we wouldn't have to figure out whether an auger or a hammer was the tool that'd give a coded benefit or not.
Tools should tell you what type they are when you assess them. You probably knew that already, though, and were just kidding around. Most of the time, tools are fairly intuitive and logical, though sometimes...anyway, for cooking they should be pretty obvious!
Quote from: Talia on June 16, 2015, 05:45:52 PM
Quote from: wizturbo on June 16, 2015, 05:38:57 PM
Oh, bummer! And here I thought we could have a workshop of tools, and we wouldn't have to figure out whether an auger or a hammer was the tool that'd give a coded benefit or not.
Tools should tell you what type they are when you assess them. You probably knew that already, though, and were just kidding around. Most of the time, tools are fairly intuitive and logical, though sometimes...anyway, for cooking they should be pretty obvious!
So my two handed sword helps with cooking right?
My experience with tools is like this: assess sandpaper > This sandpaper might be used for sanding things. assess auger > This auger might be used for drilling holes.
Huh, I don't have the sanding and drilling holes skills, bummer.... :P
But then I'm like, SO MANY crafts need sanded and holes, so whatever, I'll just pretend it's useful.
Quote from: Talia on June 16, 2015, 05:45:52 PM
Tools should tell you what type they are when you assess them. You probably knew that already, though, and were just kidding around. Most of the time, tools are fairly intuitive and logical, though sometimes...anyway, for cooking they should be pretty obvious!
Yeah, I was mostly just being lazy and wanting to walk into my "craft room" with all my tools laid out so I wouldn't have to pick up a bunch of things and assess them to remember what does what. Cooking is pretty straightforward though :)
Tools in the room add bonuses these days.
Quote from: valeria on June 16, 2015, 07:05:06 PM
Tools in the room add bonuses these days.
many pairs of etched bone scissors are here, piled up in the biggest kankfucking pile ever, despite the fact that no one actually needs this many scissorsDo you know if they add bonuses when they are just in inventory but not being held? I would assume so since it's the same code. Good to know!
Quote from: valeria on June 16, 2015, 07:05:06 PM
Tools in the room add bonuses these days.
Either that's not true, or someone needs to update the help files:
Quote from: help tools
Notes:
In most cases, in order to take advantage of any coded benefit, you
must be either holding or wielding that tool. The exceptions to this
are looms and spindles, which must be used in the crafting recipe itself.
Going from an advanced/master cook to a novice cook on a brand new character is a bitch. Good thing I enjoy the grind.
Quote from: Synthesis on June 16, 2015, 07:09:41 PM
Quote from: valeria on June 16, 2015, 07:05:06 PM
Tools in the room add bonuses these days.
Either that's not true, or someone needs to update the help files:
Quote from: help tools
Notes:
In most cases, in order to take advantage of any coded benefit, you
must be either holding or wielding that tool. The exceptions to this
are looms and spindles, which must be used in the crafting recipe itself.
It's entirely possible that I'm confused. Maybe it's just that certain rooms just by their nature give bonuses to crafting. There was a bow-crafting thing in a certain room when I was playing a merchant that definitely pumped my skills up, though. I thought it was because of that specific tool, but maybe it was a room-related thing.
All but 5% of you pick the meat up off the grill and drop it in the dust like retards
Recipes requiring a skill level above yours may be accessible if you're holding the correct tools for the job. They aren't if said tools are in your inventory and not held. I guess that'd be one way to check easily?
The argument I would make is cooking is so easy to fail at that it makes skilling it up trivial. Anyone with access to a stockpile of meat (so basically anyone in a hunting clan, or anyone with income to afford buying 'groceries') can easily max it out with a bit of patience.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on June 16, 2015, 11:04:25 PM
The argument I would make is cooking is so easy to fail at that it makes skilling it up trivial. Anyone with access to a stockpile of meat (so basically anyone in a hunting clan, or anyone with income to afford buying 'groceries') can easily max it out with a bit of patience.
The guild skillcaps on the cooking skill are so low that you will continue to fail even when you're maxed out.
And "max" it, and for those who get to to journeyman levels, it's pretty annoying to still be burning scrab steaks. The argument also doesn't account for the unrealistic failure rates and messages in general.
Damn, I dropped another fruit in the dirt trying to slice it. Silly me. Guess I wont just pick it up and wipe the dirt off when I'm surrounded by starving, dehydrated people.
You continue burning scrab steaks and other chunks of meat right up until you are able to mastercraft edibles.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on June 16, 2015, 11:34:41 PM
You continue burning scrab steaks and other chunks of meat right up until you are able to mastercraft edibles.
Yes, we know what the deal is.
We're saying that shouldn't be the deal.
Quote from: Synthesis on June 17, 2015, 12:48:19 AM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on June 16, 2015, 11:34:41 PM
You continue burning scrab steaks and other chunks of meat right up until you are able to mastercraft edibles.
Yes, we know what the deal is.
We're saying that shouldn't be the deal.
I thought that's what I said, too. I'm confused why we're arguing.
You seemed to be arguing that it's okay for it to be that way, because it's so easy to skill up.
From what I have looked over, tools usually have to be held/worn/used, though there are exceptions. You may be thinking of the fact that you can craft with things in the room with you (FYI, half-giants with abysmal agility). That doesn't mean you get the bonuses of all of the tools in the room. Some rooms provide bonuses because they have tools in them virtually (or non-virtually).
We do not have a skill system such that once you are a master at crafting things, you stop failing at crafting simpler things. What's happening when your master chef burns a scrab steak? Think of it like D&D. You roll for skill usage. Even minimum level difficulty stuff HAS a difficulty, and if you roll below that, you failed. Now, you might say to yourself, "so I screwed this up just as badly as some bloke with that minimum level of skill that failed?" Yes, that is what is being piped back to you from the game. Note that failure is absolute. We can either "give nothing" on failure (this makes sense on many crafts) or "give something" on failure (this makes sense on other crafts). There is not a gradient of possible outcomes. Providing a gradient likely would mean a complete reworking of all crafting code (unlikely in the extreme--you saw what we were expecting to do with that for Reborn, and that was based in a wholly different engine).
The other possibility would be allowing a gradient if desired (meaning it is an optional change that can be made for individual crafting recipes), but that still requires code change and testing. Assuming the code changes (however difficult they might be) would get done, it then requires more building work on the back-end to give more of a gradient for certain crafts. This isn't something that is on the agenda at this time, and I wouldn't hold your breath for that one.
We also do not have a project for providing better failures for cooked stuff, but that could probably be reviewed as something to do after the taste message stuff is finished.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on June 16, 2015, 11:34:41 PM
You continue burning scrab steaks and other chunks of meat right up until you are able to mastercraft edibles.
I don't think I've
ever failed while cooking meat, even with <journeyman> cooking, provided I was in the Gaj roasting pits. I had to start cooking elsewhere, at one point, because failing was impossible.
Quote from: Clearsighted on June 17, 2015, 10:36:44 AM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on June 16, 2015, 11:34:41 PM
You continue burning scrab steaks and other chunks of meat right up until you are able to mastercraft edibles.
I don't think I've ever failed while cooking meat, even with <journeyman> cooking, provided I was in the Gaj roasting pits. I had to start cooking elsewhere, at one point, because failing was impossible.
I don't think a single person has yet complained about cooking under optimal circumstances.
The issue is that under baseline circumstances, cooking is too difficult. If I could pick the Gaj up and carry it around with me, fine, I wouldn't be complaining.
Furthermore, there's no reason why being in a "roasting pits" would make it so much easier for me to grind up bags of seasoning, slice fruit, etc. etc. etc.
Quote from: Synthesis on June 17, 2015, 11:04:27 AM
Quote from: Clearsighted on June 17, 2015, 10:36:44 AM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on June 16, 2015, 11:34:41 PM
You continue burning scrab steaks and other chunks of meat right up until you are able to mastercraft edibles.
I don't think I've ever failed while cooking meat, even with <journeyman> cooking, provided I was in the Gaj roasting pits. I had to start cooking elsewhere, at one point, because failing was impossible.
I don't think a single person has yet complained about cooking under optimal circumstances.
The issue is that under baseline circumstances, cooking is too difficult. If I could pick the Gaj up and carry it around with me, fine, I wouldn't be complaining.
I once accidentally picked up a merchant's stall, and could carry it around with me. I set it back down very carefully. But I'll not deny that I had the fleeting urge to keep it.
The problem would appear to be that many objects were made before there was a coding standard or before the code was optimal. You've got thousands of items made by who knows how many people. That would be my guess, anyway. So the question becomes whether these errors make the game unplayable, or could our limited coding/building resources be better spent?
Quote from: Kismetic on June 17, 2015, 11:26:59 AM
So the question becomes whether these errors make the game unplayable, or could our limited coding/building resources be better spent?
The question should really never become that. At the very least it shouldn't be a part of the players discussion. Because only each staff member can define where they would like to spend their time. And they work on things that aren't breaking the game all the time.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 17, 2015, 12:35:55 PM
Quote from: Kismetic on June 17, 2015, 11:26:59 AM
So the question becomes whether these errors make the game unplayable, or could our limited coding/building resources be better spent?
The question should really never become that. At the very least it shouldn't be a part of the players discussion.
Are we not the ones who play the game and deal with the parts where the code is insufficient? As much as I enjoy a fantasy and a frolic, duder, there needs to be pragmatism.
I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying the players should determine what the staff work on? That sounds like a good way to lose a bunch of staff. I doubt the players could even come to any sort of agreement on what is most important and easiest to implement among ideas.
I'm not getting into a debate with you, but to answer your question: Absolutely! And the trend going back many years seems to be that player discussions have motivated the direction of staff workload. Cause, ya know, staff are players, too. This is a game, after all.
Meat seems harder than other things to cook. And its really, really tough getting a whole batch of flatbread out of a sack of flour unless you're very skilled.
Its really hard not to spill flour while separating a massive sack of flour, too. The only time I was able to really do it anytime I wanted was on an elf with exceptional wisdom.
I think cooking should be easier at the beginning stages, yes ... but I also think food and water should both be expensive if bought from an npc, in part to both drive people to cooking, and to force the idea of killing for these things. Dunno.
I just tested, and to be clear, tools in inventory do not give bonuses to skill (though they still count if the recipe requires a tool), while tools which are held do give bonuses to skill (and still count if the recipe requires a tool).
Loool I have been playing crafters wrong for like 6 years.
Edit: I did mean "wrong" not "long".
How many people actually hold a grill to cook with it?
A grill isn't a cooking tool, anyway. Checked the other day.
I found an actual cooking tool, but it's so stupid and makes no sense, I'm embarrassed to pull it out and actually use it, lol.
Careful where you cook certain types of meat, you might offend the locals:
Quote
craft meat into a
You begin crafting a chalton steak from a flank of chalton meat you are
carrying.
You start preparing some food.
A wild, horned chalton has arrived from the west.
<-walking-standing-unarmed>
A wild, horned chalton attacks you.
A wild, horned chalton bites you, barely grazing your arm.
<walking-fighting: a wild, horned chalton-unarmed>
Your blow bounces off a wild, horned chalton's tough skin.
A wild, horned chalton swiftly dodges your hit.
<-walking-fighting: a wild, horned chalton-unarmed>
You carefully grill the meat.
A wild, horned chalton bites at you, but you dodge out of the way.
I can't even construct a damn barrier when I'm crafting but I can fight off wild animals?
Also, going AFK in the middle of the wilderness is a bad idea folks. Reminds me of the time one of these aggressive little bastards broke my tent.
I love 7DeadlyVenoms' idea of cooking giving you temporary bonuses. It would make a real difference between getting that roasted scrab head or that travel cake, if the idea is that better quality food gives you more bonuses.
Food-based bonuses would be too gamey.
... huh? Don't you eat irl based on how food makes you feel? Otherwise, you'd always eat noodles instead of steak, or lamb, or such. We're talking tiny bonuses. Like, certain fabric tiny.
I'm pretty sure it was a pun.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on June 22, 2015, 05:52:08 PM
... huh? Don't you eat irl based on how food makes you feel? Otherwise, you'd always eat noodles instead of steak, or lamb, or such. We're talking tiny bonuses. Like, certain fabric tiny.
If it's such a tiny bonus, then why would anyone care about it? What would be the point of having it at all?
spreadsheets
Same point as having certain cloth. And, since it would apply to various stats based on the sort of food it was, perhaps it would give you that tiny edge you wanted, bump you from a 101 to a 110, something similar. Ok, yes, I guess it's gamey, but ... so? It's a game. Spice is gamey too. We have that.
In all honesty a steak should fill you quicker and longer then a cake or some shit. That is enough bonus for me. Not sure how the code works or not. Though I always been curious... Do certain foods keep your hunger filled longer and fill it faster? I've played for years and only seen slight differences in food types.
I make sure my characters seek out good food, if available. They tend to be poor, though, so they end up eating the cheapest shit they can find, until they're no longer poor. Though sometimes the hunger code is annoying and it's like, SPAM TRAVEL CAKES, RAWR!
Cooking is kind of annoying, but if you tweak one crafting sklll to be more successful, you open the door to tweaking others. Not necessarily a bad thing, but, I agree with whoever, there's quite possibly better things for staff to spend time and resources on. I hate typing skills and seeing a fuckload of novice, the slog is something I give up on frequently, then, once some skills hit advanced, I start tweaking like a fiend because I can finally smell and taste potential victory. I'd like it if certain skill-branching requirements were looked at, and perhaps adjusted lower.