This is the thread to discuss the changes to the way we staff. Please keep the conversation civil and on topic, this thread will be moderated to make sure it stays on track and to enable us to clearly address your concerns.
This seems like it has the possibility to be pretty awesome. Already I've seen the weirdest staff interaction lately, knowing that there's more to come is both exciting and dread-inducing.
I love it, especially the part about random animated NPCs. I saw a bit of that last night, and though I was frustrated icly(and occly a little) at what happened, I was VERY excited. Two animations. Wow. This ROCKS. You imms rock. Every single one of you.
Quote from: tortall on February 03, 2009, 01:18:49 AM
I love it, especially the part about random animated NPCs. .
She said what I feel perfectly.
I'm pretty excited about the change. I can't wait to see how it affects things.
So, if I'm understanding this correctly, now people in sponsored roles are going to focus more on their individual goals instead of the goals passed down to them from their clan immortals? It's exciting, and I hope it works.
Two questions:
Do the clan emails still work the same?
House Kurac players still sends mail to house_kurac@arm.org, etc
I noticed that Dakurus was listed as a "Red Storm" staffer.
Is RSV about to get some love too? or have I just not noticed it listed before?
If GMH members are getting their marching orders via e-mail, how are spies/mindbenders/etc. supposed to get in on that action?
Quote from: Synthesis on February 03, 2009, 01:41:51 AM
If GMH members are getting their marching orders via e-mail, how are spies/mindbenders/etc. supposed to get in on that action?
Surely this information will be diluted among the clan and fall into the grasp of such spies and mindbenders.
Do the clan emails still work the same?
House Kurac players still sends mail to house_kurac@arm.org, etc
Yes, clan emails work exactly the same.
I noticed that Dakurus was listed as a "Red Storm" staffer.
Is RSV about to get some love too? or have I just not noticed it listed before?
You just didn't notice :) I believe he's been the RSV regional staffer for a couple of years now.
If GMH members are getting their marching orders via e-mail, how are spies/mindbenders/etc. supposed to get in on that action?
Spies and mindbenders get their information in exactly the same way, by spying on the other players. The 'good stuff' that needs to be spied on will be, on the whole, generated by those pcs. If they're getting information from the upper levels it's likely to be brief information to assist them to enact things in game.
I love it.
Bravo.
This is the single greatest thing the staff have done in the past year.
Thank you. I cannot thank you enough.
THANK YOU. ;D
I've already had this affect me at least twice. I love it. Keep it up.
Throwing my 2 bits and a haircut here. I think the change is very impressive. Animating the small stuff is what I thought STs were supposed to be doing anyways. I'm not expecting a whole lot, so anything small will impress me.
One quick one though.... does this mean that most staff is going to be watching players more often now? Or is it more that they will be sort of PLAYING with the players more now?
This sounds like what I've always wished for. I hope this works out well.
I'm really looking forward to see how this all turns out. Good call on the staff's part, I think.
Sounds good. Really good.
Some of favorite times in Arm have been when staff spontaneously supported whatever the PCs were randomly doing (with animations or otherwise). Spreading direct support past an inner circle of leader PCs will make the game world seem more alive for everyone -- but most especially independents and player-run clans.
Awesome.
This actually inspired me to play a role other than the one I originally intended. We'll see how that works out.
Sounds awesome, staffers :)
I have to say, I played a long-term leadership role some time back, and this sounds like an answer to the prayers I had at that time.
Bravo.
Wow. Just . . wow.
If I'm reading this right, and if it works out the way it looks like it will, then this game has just shifted from being an Imms' sandbox to a players' game. That is a huge change. That is an amazing release of responsibility. This means that . . . oh wow.
Thank you for even considering this restructure. Get the word out about this, especially after it starts to work, and you will see some drifters returning.
QuoteGet the word out about this, especially after it starts to work, and you will see some drifters returning.
Speaking of which, yeah...over the years, I've definitely had people leave because they felt it was too hard to do the things they wanted to do, and essentially became IC lackeys to storylines that they had to do something momentus to affect. So that statement may not be so far off.
Holy crap, I'm coming back to arm.
If last night's animations and fun were as a result of this than I am so for this. Go go group staffer Imms!
It was hella fun. And a rather big surprise.
I'm really glad to see this. My hope is that we'll start to see a lot more diversity in the types of characters and plots.
Well, damn. This is amazing.
I'm totally in support. It never made a lot of sense to me to have to RP out the same thing I'd just emailed to my staffer anyway :P
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq163/Qzzrbl/1233108031438.gif)
I forsee much updating of biographies, with this change. People will want to give staff an idea of what direction their character is going in, if any. What part they'd ultimately icly like to play in the stories around them.
I'm very excited about this. Thanks, guys.
Just had a fun, random interaction. Thank you. It was fun and ended with a -really- useful inspiration for some things down the road. Thankyouthankyou. :)
One quick one though.... does this mean that most staff is going to be watching players more often now? Or is it more that they will be sort of PLAYING with the players more now?
Though you probably don't realize it we actually do watch you guys a ton :) But yes, in a way we'll be playing along with you a lot more through both random animations and through plot NPCs that we make our own. We want to make those characters that are accessible and that add to what you're up to rather than those unapproachable uber guys who come out to tell you what they want or rumberstamp your actions.
I think this is an awesome change, overall. I'm a tiny bit concerned about the balance between micro and macro; I really love it when those OMG BIG WORLD CHANGEZ plots happen and stir everything up around our PCs. The impression I got from the announcement is that maybe what the players are doing will lead to the macro, now? Is that even close?
I'm also interested to see what happens with sponsored roles; it sounds like it will be much more important now for those leaders to have some kind of git-up-and-go on their own, to push their own plots and projects. Which I think is a good thing, but it might seem daunting to newbie leaders. Has there been any thought as to how to develop those newbie leaders and get them over the hump of not having a clue how to use their role?
I have questions about how to go about changing the world - being a leader - and what to expect...
But I believe they should be answered on the weekend at the players meeting.
If not, I'll ask them here.
What is the staff policy on implementing world changes, now, such as minor buildings, area adjustments, camps, etc? How is it decided who will do the work, if several staff members are overseeing one area?
I think this policy change is a great shift in the right direction.
The impression I got from the announcement is that maybe what the players are doing will lead to the macro, now? Is that even close?
Yep, that's pretty much it. One thing I mentioned in my original post is that there will still be a need for staff to have a vision for the game. That doesn't mean that we preset direction, but that we have an idea of how the game feels, how it plays, and possibilities for development. We then look at what the players are doing and work with those to further develop those 'possibilities'. So our impetus comes bottoms up, not top down.
Has there been any thought as to how to develop those newbie leaders and get them over the hump of not having a clue how to use their role?
This is the area that we really need to work on most. I'd like to see some development of those 'job descriptions' or guidelines for the different types of roles and their authority, perhaps another piece of documentation that needs work is a 'So you want to be a leader' kind of thing. I think that you guys (players) should have some input in to what we write up, since a lot of you have played or are playing these roles and will have a different perspective from the staff.
I think that in game there is still room for us to help the player with RP and animation. What we can do is give them direction and clues through the environment or other npcs. For instance if there's a new noble in the house instead of me playing the npc senior who sits down and talks them through things perhaps I'll be that slave whispering information in their ear, or for the new Sarge I might be that know it all recruit that rides along bugging the hell out of them.
Of course we always have email, and many times as a new leader it's via email that we will explain the ins and outs of something and that will always be available.
What is the staff policy on implementing world changes, now, such as minor buildings, area adjustments, camps, etc? How is it decided who will do the work, if several staff members are overseeing one area?
Pollicy in this regard has not changed. There are still the same considerations put in before something is built, and like before it may mean that many things are given a no, or remain virtual.
If we are going to work on building or adjustments it will be within the care of the 'group' in question. Not every group is going to be managed the same, for some groups they've appointed one staffer as the main point of contact for a clan with the HL giving admin support and direction, for other groups it's an all for one approach. I imagine people who are first point of contact for a clan will take care of their building, for the groups it'll be on a volunteer basis amongst members. We hope that some of the roadblocks we've had for things in the past will be gone with this new approach. For instance building work still needs to get a Highlord + sign off, we hope that this sign off (or veto) will be easier to obtain as each group has its own HL that is responsible for making sure that side of things get's sorted.
Quote from: Adhira on February 03, 2009, 12:35:31 PM
For instance building work still [anything that] needs to get a Highlord + sign off, we hope that this sign off (or veto) will be easier to obtain as each group has its own HL that is responsible for making sure that side of things get's sorted.
This is one of my favorite things about the change. It seems that things will go flow much easier now, and HL+ decisions will be a lot more informed now. Rather than just having the info that was given to them by players or Storytellers, they will most likely have deeper insight into the subject in question.
Also the Hierarchy relations of the staff set up seem that it will be much more efficient throughout.
I think this was great timing to put into effect, just before the Players Meeting, so it has time to work out and get some proper feedback.
Maybe when I'm at work, I'll send in a big staff kudos, but for now, I want to say something and then turn off my derail:
You staff have been, over the past say 6 months, more on the ball, organized, and altogether "better" than I've seen you be in the past 3 years. I'm not saying it was bad previously, but something has kicked the coders into 3rd gear (Not just Morg, either. I'm sure Cav or Ten are working hard too.) and the overall staff <-> player flow has been MUCH better. I just want to say thanks for really treating this game and its players so well, and doing it for FREE too. Big kuds.
/derail
Sounds excellent.
*quirks an eyebrow*
I am intrirgued.
And as I have not had much time to play Arm in recent days, this has given me incentive to check in.
One thing that I am concerned with is, I'm sure a lot more things are going to be blown out of proportion for a while as far as players taking what the imms to say as the gods honest truth. What precautions are being used as far as preventing shadies from being on blast 24/7 because any little mistake will get them reported to the local militia via the army of immortals over their shoulder? Let me rephrase this, will they be limited to dealing with that scene by not being able to report the actions of PCs that weren't caught by the VNPC population?
Having just experienced just a little taste of this... awesome.
Quote from: Adhira on February 03, 2009, 12:25:45 PM
Has there been any thought as to how to develop those newbie leaders and get them over the hump of not having a clue how to use their role?
This is the area that we really need to work on most. I'd like to see some development of those 'job descriptions' or guidelines for the different types of roles and their authority, perhaps another piece of documentation that needs work is a 'So you want to be a leader' kind of thing. I think that you guys (players) should have some input in to what we write up, since a lot of you have played or are playing these roles and will have a different perspective from the staff.
What I have discovered in the course playing Armageddon, and other games, is that you can't make someone into a decent leader with a 'primer' or even because they have a history of amiable social RP with past PCs. It takes a certain innate capacity coupled with a degree of free time, to really get something off the ground. In my opinion, the best leaders have rarely been those who got their position from being a sponsored role. In fact, the most atrocious leaders have been those who were sponsored into it. That's because those who started from the bottom rung, had to at least been doing something right to get anyone to have anything to do with them on their own volition.
As an example: Some of the best, unsung leaders this game has /ever/ had, have been humble T'zai Byn sergeants. They came in as shit, and through sheer determination and surviving, managed to acquire authority. I can name five or six Byn sergeants off the top of my head that were not only able to inspire loyalty, but had an instinctive grasp of personnel management and keeping people alive. Sergeants that lack such traits, tended to die fast.
In contrast, just about every long term player probably has their own private black list of awful experiences they had dealing with various templars or nobles. Though every now and then, the rare fortunate event occurs of someone who is both a natural leader, has spent time in the trenches, and managed to get sponsored into a leadership role. Those are the true gems.
A bit of a derail but this:
In fact, the most atrocious leaders have been those who were sponsored into it. That's because those who started from the bottom rung, had to at least been doing something right to get anyone to have anything to do with them on their own volition.
Really is neither fact.. or fiction. Some of the best leaders I've seen have been sponsored, others have made their own way up in the world. By the same token I've seen some that have made their way up that haven't been that great a leader.
The byn is a good example of both deserving, and not so deserving, in my opinion. However I admire anyone who puts themselves forward and commits their time to make an attempt at a leadership role. They may not always be successful, but they took the time and made an attempt. There are host of fantastic nobles, templars and family member merchants who have added unbelievable depth, RP and leadership to this game, just as there has been sergeants, hunters and crafters.
Leadership is not something you can just impart, it isn't something one just learns from a primer, but it surely cannot hurt to make sure that people have a good understanding of their roles and where they can take things. Hopefully through emails, RP with npcs and pcs, and their own general adeptness we'll manage to help those newbie leaders who just need that extra push.
And if that boss happens to be not so great? Well I've seen that drive some terrific RP too.
Now, let's get this thread back on track.
Quote from: Adhira on February 03, 2009, 11:47:40 PM
Now, let's get this thread back on track.
You mean the track of "God god we love you, Imms"?
Because, good god.
I love you.
... Imms.
Wow... you guys are rocking my socks off.
Thank you thank you thank you. :)
Being a good leader starts with reading The Prince, but that's a story for another time. ;)
Quote from: Archbaron on February 04, 2009, 12:57:43 AM
Being a good leader starts with reading The Prince logging in, and ends with not being a douche.
ftfy
Quote from: Synthesis on February 04, 2009, 01:03:28 AM
Quote from: Archbaron on February 04, 2009, 12:57:43 AM
Being a good leader starts with reading The Prince logging in, and ends with not being a douche.
ftfy
Thank you.
this whole player driven clan thing didn't really work out for CAM. I hope with more oversight from immortals such a lack of PC leaders can be remedied quickly instead of left to stagnate. If its mostly going to be up to PC leaders, there needs to be plans for when they don't do their job/don't login, etc.
(don't get me wrong, if they are a bad leader ICly that's great. it can be dealt with ICly. but for AFK pc leaders? ones on haitus? clans with lots of folks but no one with the time to be leader? what then?)
Along with the concern of the above post, is the concern about clans with leaders who are lower-ranking leaders. Their clan docs are pretty clear that they don't have as much authority to do certain things, therefore pretty much requiring the IC presence of their clan superior NPCs at least "often" if not "regularly."
In other words, clan leader PCs need someone IC to report to, unless they are high enough ranking that they are authorized to make House-wide decisions on their own. Joe Junior Nenyuk Agent in Allanak probably doesn't have the authority to agree to giving Muk Utep's Legionairres a permanent 10% discount on all their housing needs in Tuluk. But Sue Senior Nenyuk Agent probably does.
Quote from: Synthesis on February 04, 2009, 01:03:28 AM
Quote from: Archbaron on February 04, 2009, 12:57:43 AM
Being a good leader starts with reading The Prince logging in, and ends with not being a douche.
ftfy
I think it's possible to be a good leader and be a douche.
Quote from: Agent_137 on February 04, 2009, 03:36:30 AM
I hope with more oversight from immortals such a lack of PC leaders can be remedied quickly instead of left to stagnate. If its mostly going to be up to PC leaders, there needs to be plans for when they don't do their job/don't login, etc.
This is also a concern of mine.
Posted by: Agent_137
this whole player driven clan thing didn't really work out for CAM. I hope with more oversight from immortals such a lack of PC leaders can be remedied quickly instead of left to stagnate. If its mostly going to be up to PC leaders, there needs to be plans for when they don't do their job/don't login, etc.
Absolutely this could be an issue. I think this is something that needs to be realised. This is not just a change for staff, but for players too. It may be that some clans do not work at certain times. That the lack of leadership causes people to move on, move out and so on.
Obviously staff are not going to just ignore the clans and give them no love or attention, but we are putting some responsibility for your fun back on you, the player. There does needs to be plans for when a leader doesn't do their job or login, I suggest that much of that planning can be done ICly. There should be work done in game to flesh our ranks, have a chain of command, communicate goals and objectives etc. Staff can assist the way we do now, when we see a gap we put out a call to fill a role. We won't be assisting by loading up the boss and telling you all what to do, but you may find us there with that merchant who has orders that desperately require certain tasks, or that noble that throw some sid at the byn to get a job done. We'll also make sure that there are ways to get around things such as requiring that leader to log in so you can be released instead of having to wait for that never appearing leader.
The staffing change is also a reflection of our move towards Armageddon 2 where there will be less of the virtual and many clans or towns will rise and fall based on the actions of their players. I hope that this will work, this game is about the players and one bit of feedback we often receive is that the players want to be more central to the story, and that they want to make their stories work, not just fill out the rank and file of some huge unending plotline. This is an experiment, and we will be assessing it, and we will be asking players for feedback along the way.
Quote from: Nyr on February 04, 2009, 08:33:23 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on February 04, 2009, 01:03:28 AM
Quote from: Archbaron on February 04, 2009, 12:57:43 AM
Being a good leader starts with reading The Prince logging in, and ends with not being a douche.
ftfy
I think it's possible to be a good leader and be a douche.
(http://i.photosleeve.com/static/resize/CCA292F0-5691-11DD-A5FD-F5F4D212D7CE.jpg?d=0)
Quote from: Adhira on February 04, 2009, 11:38:44 AM
The staffing change is also a reflection of our move towards Armageddon 2 where there will be less of the virtual and many clans or towns will rise and fall based on the actions of their players. I hope that this will work, this game is about the players and one bit of feedback we often receive is that the players want to be more central to the story, and that they want to make their stories work, not just fill out the rank and file of some huge unending plotline. This is an experiment, and we will be assessing it, and we will be asking players for feedback along the way.
That sounds.. awesome. A game where the whole world moves along to player actions would be the game of my dreams.
I'm amazed and grateful for how quickly I've seen this take effect IG.
Not to tow the party line here, but I had a brief bit of interaction last night and though it consisted of only one emote and two other minor bits in the middle of nowhere, it -did- add a helluva lot more flavor to the happenings than what I'm used to.
Please, keep that up. Random or not so random animation of the surrounding world on a semi-regular basis would be cause for more personal glee than several hardcore, imm ran plots.
Out of general curiosity... is there a list of which staffers are assigned to which areas of the game?
Quote from: Nyr on February 04, 2009, 08:33:23 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on February 04, 2009, 01:03:28 AM
Quote from: Archbaron on February 04, 2009, 12:57:43 AM
Being a good leader starts with reading The Prince logging in, and ends with not being a douche.
ftfy
I think it's possible to be a good leader and be a douche.
Definitely possible.
It depends on how much respect or fear they're able to wield, which serves well enough as an alternative.
Quote from: Mood on February 04, 2009, 09:38:15 PM
Out of general curiosity... is there a list of which staffers are assigned to which areas of the game?
http://www.armageddon.org/general/staff.php
Sekret links are the bomb.
Yeah, I just about crapped my pants laughing at a certain Immstigated event earlier today. ;D
What will the regulations be for Imms interacting with shady type characters? Will the Imms be restricted from reporting the actions of PCs that were not reported by the VNPC population? Will they have free reign to report any and all pick-pockets to the local PC militia and templars?
Thank youuuuu.
Quote from: Delstro on February 04, 2009, 11:43:00 PM
What will the regulations be for Imms interacting with shady type characters? Will the Imms be restricted from reporting the actions of PCs that were not reported by the VNPC population? Will they have free reign to report any and all pick-pockets to the local PC militia and templars?
Staff will follow the same criteria that we have for them now, which is the same as applied to all characters 'shady' or not. I don't think this question applies to the new method of staffing.
It seems like a positive change to me, and I wish I had more time to play and check it out right now.
I do have a concern about the move to all player run content. It seems to me that the player base will never be enough to fully and consistently flesh out a population, everywhere at once.
If the staff are moving away from controlling their clans and leaving more power in the hands of players, won't that exaggerate the current fluctuations in the player base even more? It makes sense to me that if Fale has no players for three months, the staff would still ensure that the organization continued virtually and was ready when players showed up, rinthers that decided to squat in the estate would be evicted, parties would still be (virtually) held, and during the council meetings they'd do whatever it is they do.
Placing all the power on players seems like it'd be really unstable and imbalanced. A large portion of the game is always going to be virtual, 40-90 players at peak simply can't flesh out an entire world.
That said... I can see the advantages too, and like I said, I wish I had more time to check it out.
Few questions about this, still sort of iffy on it, myself.
"Staff will no longer be animating the 'big boss' and senior NPCs of the clans for report ins and general catch ups. When a player needs information from the higher ranks of the house this will, in general, be given via email. "
Wouldn't this necessarily destroy any suitable relationship from being formed between the character of that Merchant or Noble House with their own superior? One of the most interesting aspects of such a position, I felt, is being a part of a bigger organization, that there were things occurring within such an organization that my character lacked the control to manipulate or understand. This was generally shown in regard to a superior, who also provided as a primary example as what to do and what not to do. That individual achieved their rank for a reason, and provides at the very least an example to follow. I am not sure how well this is going to translate with individuals who never played Nobles or Merchant Families before, unless they are constantly being told what they're doing is wrong (when they are doing something wrong) in a 'letter' from their superior, which might lead to a negative approach to the role.
How much influence can a PC have before it's the cut-off point? Can a player still hope to gain one of those 'big boss positions' and keep their character without having to store?
What presently happens to on-going plots that were previously 'Imm-coordinated'? Are these now in the hands of the player, are they going to have some sort of conclusion, or is it now a clean-slate?
I am glad to read the comments regarding the Staff's random animation, and it's clear this is obviously having an impact, just a few questions that had been bugging me.
Thanks.
It makes sense to me that if Fale has no players for three months, the staff would still ensure that the organization continued virtually and was ready when players showed up, rinthers that decided to squat in the estate would be evicted, parties would still be (virtually) held, and during the council meetings they'd do whatever it is they do.
I think I mentioned in the original post that the structures, houses and general makeup of society will remain. For instance though we dont' staff House Sath we always count it in to our factoring of Allanak society. Though House Nenyuk is closed for play if people want to rent property it's always House Nenyuk that the answer comes from, and we certainly would react if people were trying to take over that estate and make it their own. The virtual world is still there, but the roleplay is focused at the level the players are at. If they escalate RP in a way that affects that next level up then staff will be there to react as appropriate.
How much influence can a PC have before it's the cut-off point? Can a player still hope to gain one of those 'big boss positions' and keep their character without having to store?
This is not something I can give a black and white, absolute answer on, there will be circumstances where promotion is possible. However, these kinds of promotion have to be assessed against the game world. This is no different to now, we make those assessments when looking at promotions. Sometimes it can be detrimental to player and the game world to let them rise too far. Certain roles carry great restrictions, these restrictions would mean that a player is effectively left without any RP.
What presently happens to on-going plots that were previously 'Imm-coordinated'? Are these now in the hands of the player, are they going to have some sort of conclusion, or is it now a clean-slate?
As I mentioned there is still a need for the staff to have an overview of the world and a sense of direction, purpose and theme. Plots that have been ongoing will not just suddenly cease to exist. What the players are doing with these will be a major factor. There's no point a storyteller having a plotline set up if no one is interested in playing it, and they'd rather do something else. We will always, however, be making sure that stories progress and succeed or fail in a way that makes sense for the gameworld.
You mentioned the example that superiors gave other players - there will still be these examples. The superiors aren't just going to disappear, but yes, it is likely that the sponsored role players may see less of these npc than they used to. Instead our time is going to be spread around more. We think there are other ways for people to see role models within their clans, and we are hoping to show that through different types of animations. I acknowledge that the senior npc is often a great moment, but sometimes, somethings got to give. I'm hoping that we can manage to get the balance right.
I was -already- seeing less of the clan NPC superior, before these changes were made. I really REALLY miss those interactions and due to the nature of my role in the clan, would be extremely disappointed if this resulted in my only "higher up" interaction be relegated to e-mail, and not game play.
I know that I won't be spending -more- time e-mailing. I already do plenty of that, and I'm not playing Armageddon: The E-mail Game.
This is just leaving me with a very uncomfortable feeling right now.
I know that the NPC superior interactions are going to be missed. The fact of the matter is that not only was a large amount of staff time spent animating these seniors for a small group, a lot of what happened in these animations were in fact things that had already been covered in emails. So, we may still animate those seniors, but we won't be spending 2 hours going over ground that is already known.
We also need to make sure that we share the love. Both on behalf of players, and staff. We want to make sure that staff are able to use their time to effect the game in the best way possible. At the same time we want to make sure that staff are able to have fun. Sometimes that fun may be animating the NPC senior for you, but more often than not it's going to be playing another type of role.
Finally, what we notice is that many players rely on their NPC seniors to direct their play. Part of this is because in the past we may have used the seniors to do this. We want players to choose their own direction, we don't want them sitting around waiting for 3 weeks, a month, sometimes longer to get that animation so they can finally get something signed off and do something. It is far more efficient for us to send an IC answer via email to many things, than to try and schedule in the animation time to get things done.
I understand that you don't wish to play the email game, we're not asking you to spend more time emailing. We're asking that you understand when you say "I need to ask my NPC senior how much sid I should exchange for a cart load of dung" we're going to reply to that via email, rather than in game.
Hurrah!
Waiting for staff/player playtimes to line up so I can tell/ask my NPC superior something that I've already emailed the staff I was going to tell/ask them was probably the single most frustrating aspect of clan PC life for me.
Also love the idea that we'll see more animations of lower-level NPCs. I feel that far too often clan players forget to consider their virtual peers as much as their NPC superiors. I think having animated junior nobles, aides of virtual nobles, maids, slaves, members of other guard/soldier/hunter units, etc pop up will help people get a better feel for the virtual world around them.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on February 05, 2009, 11:38:49 AM
Waiting for staff/player playtimes to line up so I can tell/ask my NPC superior something that I've already emailed the staff I was going to tell/ask them was probably the single most frustrating aspect of clan PC life for me.
Quadruple this for off-peakers. I've played a noble, Templar, Byn Sarge and Guild boss and in each of those roles I was lucky to get 1 NPC superior animation a month. Not knocking the staff but that's just the way things went due to conflicting playtimes. It was quite frustrating sometimes to get the go-ahead for certain things and more often that not I'd wind up agreeing a course of action over email in the end after much wasted time and effort on both sides. I much prefer the change of focus as outlined above.
It's a good move by the staff. While it may not be the best thing for -all- players (as some have brought up), I think this'll improve the gameplay overall, which, IMO is the better alternative.
It's just a matter of time and seeing the results of this.
GL to you leaders for the plots you generate for the near future. We haven't had a real HRPT in a while now. ;D
Quote from: Adhira...Staff instead will be concentrating on facilitating the stories that players are creating. The overall goal is that gameplay happens at a level that is accessible to players, allowing them to feel a very real part of the action.
Another goal with the change is to move the focus of Storytellers from the administrative side of running clans, to the story oriented side. With a Highlord in charge of each group we hope that much of the admin work can be relieved and with dedicated HL's for each group decisions can get sign off at the team level.
The overall aim of this is to see STs out there animating every day, because they –want- to, to see plots and stories that reflect what players are interested in and want to achieve and staff supporting what you all are doing.
I guess I have the question as to how much will the world change, along with the stories that are created.
If someone has an idea to "burn" a tavern down, can we?
If someone wants to create a shop, can we?
But, more than just yes and no, what I would really enjoy is examples as to how the immortal staff would like us to go through with our stories and plots that we create.
I would really like concrete, step-by-step instructions, because I'm kinda slow. I would give my forever thanks if some "correct procedure" as to how to make these plots come alive within the game world. These are some examples that I had:
- a plot of a creation of a hunting clan, with a storehouse and NPC guards
- a plot of a creation of a new shop, with an NPC seller.
- a plot of a destruction of a current shop or building
I do realize there are many many ways to go about creating this sort of things, and some ways are more productive than others. Since the focus is shifted to the storylines that the players create, how do we, as players, best go about to create these stories. I'm really just looking for a simpler, step-by-step instructions, both In-Game and Out-Of-Game, so I can follow them in a directed way to be more productive along with the staff, rather than against what the staff wish to see happen with the creation of room objects / npcs / items.
Sorry if I'm confusing.
As far as world changes it's going to depend on what you want to achieve. Some of it will be possible, some of it will not. Really the best way to figure that out is to communicate with your clan staff. Be aware that sometimes theyre not going to tell you if something will work, they're just going to tell you... sure, go ahead, work towards it, try it. Why is that? Because otherwise no one would try anything, and even though something might not succeed other things might happen along the way, it's all about RP, right?
To tackle some of your examples for instance:
- a plot of a creation of a hunting clan, with a storehouse and NPC guards
While we have changed aspects of staffing one thing that has not changed is the information Sanvean put out a while ago with regards to staff support for new clans. We will not be supporting player created plans with building, npcs and the like. This is something that we wish to move towards, but it is unlikely to happen till Armageddon Reborn.
a plot of a creation of a new shop, with an NPC seller.
I would say that in general the rulling of above applies. However in some instances this may happen through existing clan structures. It is something that would need to be planned out lIC, staff would need to be updated and at the end of it all a Highlord has to sign off on the project. One thing to note is that many players have gone about this kind of thing in recent times and been told ... yes, but it will be virtual. This could still be the case in many instances.
- a plot of a destruction of a current shop or building
Again, this could happen. But staff would want to be informed at each step of the way and also be available to witness said destruction. Simply sending a log saying.. Hi we RP'd burning down Tek's Tower and killed the NPC Templars that came to stop us, can you eliminate that from game... will not suffice. We want to make sure that the effort was thought out properly, we want to be able to represent the NPC an vNPC population. If all such things happen, then yes, there is a chance and a way to destroy buildings and so on, in game.
At the end of the day my instructions for any player endeavours, especially those with larger scale yearnings is involve your staff. Every single player in the game now has a person or group they can contact. Independants fit into a clan group also so ... while unclanned, they have assigned staff. Communicating with staff, setting up RPT dates so staff can observe and considering your npc and virtual surroundings are all good steps to take towards progressing your stories.
Wow, I just experienced this yesterday, off-peak. It was just for three minutes, but I loved it, made me see them as more than just NPCs. And it cuts out a lot of the loneliness when playing off-peak :)
Then again, I did experience an animation once before, but didn't realize that the guy was a NPC at all. That too was very enjoyable.
Has anyone noticed much of a difference from before yet? Now that the initial oo's and ah's are over with.
Quote from: Semper on February 18, 2009, 06:37:04 PM
Has anyone noticed much of a difference from before yet? Now that the initial oo's and ah's are over with.
I have. I've seen random shopkeeps/barkeeps animated, much more than they used to be. Also other animations.
It's been great. Huge difference.
Remember to thank those masochistic staff.
Thanks, masochistic staff!
I remember a long long time ago. My elf wandered into a place he should not have and became cursed.
An evil spirt kept following my character around doing bad things to him like starting random barfights int he tavern and having cockroaches bite him in his sleep. It is one of my favorite arm expieriences.
I recently saw some little things, and its effect on fleshing-out the world is immeasurable. Even the -tiniest- animation or imm-stigated occurence fills things out tremendously. I like it!
A little note here... Back in my very first days of Armageddon, my young Byn Runner bumped into a Byn Lieutenant. I had no idea that it was an animated NPC till later. In that single immteraction, I learned the sheer awesome power of responsibly using vNPCs. It was just a minor thing, but it still stands out as a prime example in my mind to this day. I didn't know about staff kudos back then, and I never wrote emails to the staff at the time, either. It's probably not too late to send 'em in, but the pertinent details are fuzzy in my mind. So, here's a vague, all-encompassing kudos to the staff-at-large. You guys are awesome for helping to make this great game work.
Quote from: Zoltan on February 18, 2009, 11:17:45 PM
I recently saw some little things, and its effect on fleshing-out the world is immeasurable. Even the -tiniest- animation or imm-stigated occurence fills things out tremendously. I like it!
A little note here... Back in my very first days of Armageddon, my young Byn Runner bumped into a Byn Lieutenant. I had no idea that it was an animated NPC till later. In that single immteraction, I learned the sheer awesome power of responsibly using vNPCs. It was just a minor thing, but it still stands out as a prime example in my mind to this day. I didn't know about staff kudos back then, and I never wrote emails to the staff at the time, either. It's probably not too late to send 'em in, but the pertinent details are fuzzy in my mind. So, here's a vague, all-encompassing kudos to the staff-at-large. You guys are awesome for helping to make this great game work.
When I started playing, one of the staff at the time animated a shopkeeper and sent a room echo to respond to my very insignificant actions. Once I even got a couple sid out of a virtual crowd after begging. It was small and infrequent, but unbelievably encouraging.
That experience encouraged me enormously and is probably part of what kept me excited about the game. It kept me thinking, emoting, and having fun, and reminded me that they
are watching, even when you think you're alone.
i haven't seen anything but i don't play every day and i often fail to emote when alone so i'm probably pretty boring to watch most of the time. :( I use think alot though!
Anyone feel like nothing's changed? (No offense to my staffers).
EDIT: To be more specific --
Have you, as a player, noticed this difference? If so -- Are your interactions with staff mainly through email, or IG?
Have you as a staffer noticed a difference in your workload? If so -- Is it easier for you now to interact through email? Do you do it often?
Armageddon is a game where we are supposed to take the vNPC population heavily into consideration, but problems arise when we need support, conflict, or information from that VNPC population and cannot get it due to a lack of staff involvement or (perhaps unique to my case, due to disagreements over clan documentation and history interpretation) an evident refusal of staff to get overly involved. Either way, I often get a sense of being forced to "go my own way", and have to constantly agonize over whether I am correctly representing the realities of the vNPC population.
I notice a tendancy of the staff to show only one side of a situation. I would like to humbly suggest that they make more of an effort to display a well-rounded view of the plots they get involved in; one of the strengths of PC-led plots, I feel, is that there are so many facets, and so few ultimate right-or-wrongs. For every enemy or negative viewpoint, try to show a more positive side or a supporter. I believe that would aid PCs involved in staff-created plots in feeling less like they are being constantly, mercilessly cut down, and more like they are being presented a multi-facted challenge.
I also feel that the staff rotation has ultimately been a detriment, because you get staff coming aboard who are thrown into the mix without knowing much if any of the clan and it's current characters' histories, resulting in players who feel as if history's being re-written under their feet, and staff who are frustrated because their efforts, despite being creative, involved, and inspired, are argued with by players who now feel shafted and/or confused. Yes, without as-frequent staff rotation you will still have this problem, but it would be mitigated due to the fact that they are on-board for a much longer term, and hopefully, the staff member proceeding them will be more able to assist them in getting acclimated, since they have more time to do so.
I enjoy not spending an IC day or so reporting to my NPC superiors, though sometimes IC/OOC details in emails can fall into the gray area (I mean its hard to tell how much of the responses in emails are from clan bosses and how much is from clan staff) I think it is a good change overall, though.
I saw a few of the "random" NPC animations each week at first but not-so-much anymore.
These are always quite enjoyable.
Edited to add: I have had seen nothing but OOC support and IC support or chastisement (depending on the situation) for the player ran plots I have been involved in.
My interactions with "clan superiors" have been completely and totally replaced by e-mail. I find this disappointing. I accept that this is the way it is, and I deal with it. I'm glad that the staff is so responsive with e-mail, and they're doing a great job at other kinds of animations. I definitely do get other types of interaction with NPCs, and it is absolutely positively appreciated.
But, I miss roleplaying an interaction with a superior. It feels very...lonely. Like my character is "the" boss and has no one to turn to, when in fact, she's only middling on the clan's food chain and has a few ranks worth of superiors above her. Having even a once-monthly interaction would be awesome, even if it's just a superior saying "hey, I remember you, we're related somehow. Well, gotta run, toodles!"
Quote from: Reiloth
Have you, as a player, noticed this difference? If so -- Are your interactions with staff mainly through email, or IG?
I haven't noticed much of a difference in email response - I get regular responses from the storyteller level, which I am grateful for. Decisions that require a highlord+ I have been waiting on for months. Since they're not high-priority, I haven't raised a fuss, but it does require patience...
IC interaction has gone from minimal to zero, which suits me fine, unless I need an animation, in which case it can be aggravating. I haven't managed to schedule a single animation since the change, and I've only requested one, which I gave up on after about a month.
Also, I rarely agree with Lizzie, but I completely and totally agree with her above post (edit: evidently, only as I interpreted it).
It is a fine line. Give PCs authority who have proven they are capable of it, sure - that part I'm grateful for - but when those PCs realize that their place is only in the middle of the food chain and they are used to seeking guidance from their bosses, it is a lonely place to suddenly hear little but "do what you want." What they want to do is work with their superiors, and they can't really do that without having at least something to go off of.
Edit:
This isn't to say that we can't pursue our own plots; far from it.
To use a hypothetical example, your high-ranking aide wants to negotiate X for B purpose between two noble houses. X negotiation has the potential to impact the clan's entire direction, if W and Y or especially Z happens, so your aide wants to know what Lord Poobah thinks. Your are told "Lord High Poobah has nothing to offer." You the player are left feeling mildly confused and/or abandoned, because in all previous incarnations, Lord Poobah always had an opinion or a suggestion, even if it was "go right ahead, Minion 2343."
You aren't sure whether it means that Lord Poobah approves of your character enough to give them free reign, is tired of being pestered by your character, or just doesn't give a shit... because you have no IC context to go off of.
That's what I'm talking about.
I should clarify, I -am- getting responses "from the clan superiors." But the responses are coming via e-mail. It feels sterile, and contrived, to react ICly to something you get via e-mail. "The house would tell you, this - about that subject." I guess what I'm saying, is I'd rather the House NPC tell my PC "this, about that subject," in the game. At least sometimes. I haven't had any of that, since this change in February.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on May 20, 2009, 08:02:56 PM
I saw a few of the "random" NPC animations each week at first but not-so-much anymore.
These are always quite enjoyable.
Same... in my current clan I've only had this once in the few months I've been in. I have other/better things to do, though, than sit around waiting for random animations.
I got two animations. Both of which were awesome.
I saw some major animations when it first happened, both of which caused my death. They were realistic and expected, which is nice, but I died, which wasn't nice.
i've gotten 2 or three randoms, and two requested animations. And since I've been indie for this entire period, i feel pretty good.
lizzie, don't be so bitter about sharing the wealth, ok?
I haven't seen much of a difference, to be completely honest. E-mail's merely replaced most of the face-to-face with npcs. I am not really sure that's a positive or negative thing, as interaction with one's superior can always lead to fun (i.e. plotting their untimely demise). At times there seems to be a general sense of a complete lack of direction, but I don't feel that's necessarily the Imms fault. We're still in a transition period from particular players who were used to having a plan set out for us to someone throwing us the steering wheel and giving free reign. It sounds nice on paper, but there are going to be a few which steer into the nearest wall without having a clue.
The only bitter note I have is the abandonment of previous plots, which becomes kind of repetitive with a long-standing character. Especially with imm-rotations, it seems kind of difficult for another imm to come in, pick up the plot and keep a particular story-line going with the same things in mind that the previous imm did. I mean, it's nice to leave things open-ended and not have a cut and dry conclusion, but just once I'd like to see the efforts put in actually result in something concrete, rather than fade into obscurity. It does wear a player down, over time, and the unfortunate fact is that it inevitably effects your character's motivation. But, I suppose this is merely my own observation and opinion - I am not really sure how others feel on that particular matter.
Now, I tend to chew off some ambitious shit when I decide to actually e-mail the staff. There have been some quiet complaints, many kudos, fun, intrigue and excitement I've had with the staff. I've never seen a really seen a long stretch of time without Imm interaction.
Then again, (give me some mercy here I started playing at twelve) - I used to be that guy that imms would jump into an animation to ruthlessly murder one way or another for doing something ridiculous, spamming or just shitty roleplaying with a bit of power-gaming involved way too often each day. Lately, I've been trying to feel out my characters and interact with the world around much more in-depth, and more than once since, I've I got a response by just wishing up ; "Hey, this is happening here, would be really nice to see some animation to further the plot..." So, I can't complain about staff involvement from a day to day basis. That said, I feel like a d-bag every time I DO wish up, and there is no known response.
That's where the e-mail comes into play for me. Normally, I'll have a plot I'm trying to bring to light when I e-mail, or I've done something really naughty IG to someone's house or something they should know about, or I'm clanned and sending in updates. However, I will say, I can't stay away from the north for this reason. Recently, aside from any huge RPT's in the south, I've found it next to impossible to get much interaction. Maybe thats just me.
I wasn't reporting to NPCs before the change, so I didn't notice any difference on that front.
Before the change, I'd never had a random NPC interaction and I'd had one wish for an animation answered. Some minor stuff handled over e-mail.
After the change, I've had a handful of random interactions and every wish for animation has been answered fairly quickly and always enjoyably. I generally don't require much interaction from staff, but I find that my e-mails and requests are always answered promptly. Except for this one insane idea that I sent in ... but I even said in the e-mail that they didn't have to respond. :D
Edit: Oh, and the random animations have been great. Though one, I think, was related to a big plot and I just had no idea how to follow up on it (I don't think I was supposed to, though). I've seen some great NPC conversations/interactions and one hilarious mount interaction.
I don't think my character even has a boss. If I do, I've never met him/her, don't know his/her name, or what's expected of me.
Eh?
Quote from: Decameron on May 20, 2009, 11:06:49 PM...the abandonment of previous plots, which becomes kind of repetitive with a long-standing character. Especially with imm-rotations, it seems kind of difficult for another imm to come in, pick up the plot and keep a particular story-line going with the same things in mind that the previous imm did. I mean, it's nice to leave things open-ended and not have a cut and dry conclusion, but just once I'd like to see the efforts put in actually result in something concrete, rather than fade into obscurity. It does wear a player down, over time...
I think this is my main problem, right here, if we add in the fact that the clan reality changes a bit, as well, with each rotation, depending on the new staff's viewpoints. Meaning the player has to re-adjust, to another new "reality" that is slightly different from the former, each time the clan staff changes over. I'm not sure there is a solution to this, but extending the time period a staff member spends with one clan might help.
There are times when I feel like I'm shouting into a black hole, and that is not really very fun.
Got a lot of animations for a few weeks when the policy was implemented, during a big RPT I was involved in as well, they were absolutely fantastic. Had a few wished for animations after that with clan PCs, which were required for specific purposes... but no random ones since the first few weeks of the new policy.
As someone who hasn't played in a clan, I've seen absolutely no change.
I saw a metric ton of animations before the change. Since then, I've seen precisely none.
That's just an observation, by the way. I'm happy either way.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 22, 2009, 05:10:11 AM
As someone who hasn't played in a clan, I've seen absolutely no change.
i think it might help if you communicate with your indie staff a little.
Quote from: a strange shadow on May 20, 2009, 08:18:14 PM
It is a fine line. Give PCs authority who have proven they are capable of it, sure - that part I'm grateful for - but when those PCs realize that their place is only in the middle of the food chain and they are used to seeking guidance from their bosses, it is a lonely place to suddenly hear little but "do what you want." What they want to do is work with their superiors, and they can't really do that without having at least something to go off of.
Edit:
This isn't to say that we can't pursue our own plots; far from it.
To use a hypothetical example, your high-ranking aide wants to negotiate X for B purpose between two noble houses. X negotiation has the potential to impact the clan's entire direction, if W and Y or especially Z happens, so your aide wants to know what Lord Poobah thinks. Your are told "Lord High Poobah has nothing to offer." You the player are left feeling mildly confused and/or abandoned, because in all previous incarnations, Lord Poobah always had an opinion or a suggestion, even if it was "go right ahead, Minion 2343."
You aren't sure whether it means that Lord Poobah approves of your character enough to give them free reign, is tired of being pestered by your character, or just doesn't give a shit... because you have no IC context to go off of.
I can identify with this so much. Sometimes it's hard to get past the feeling that NPC clan bosses have become unseen, uninterested, and uninvolved in the affairs of any PC.
For me, "do what you want" doesn't feel empowering or liberating, without some kind of parameters to work within. I
know I can't do just anything without support from clan staff. The idea for job descriptions, mentioned early in this thread, would help with this, I think.
Still, I think email works great for dealing with reports. I didn't seen NPC meetings all that useful for that even before, most of the time. I find it easier, and quicker, to provide context in an email, more often than not. The amount of animations I've seen since the change is probably about the same as before, just not with NPC bosses.
So I don't think it's a bad change at all, on the balance. I just think it put clan leaders in a somewhat difficult position, and it'll take some more time to get used to it.
The following point of view only applies to a single storyteller (me) and is not the view of staff:
Initially when this change came aboard at the same time we were taking on new staff. This can account probably for a vast amount of the random animations as new staff have a few things to learn and are not yet familiar with all of the characters and their plotlines. Without the knowledge and experience of having been on staff, I think for a new staffer it is easier to do random animations, but after that experience is built there is a shift toward more focused animating.
A few tips on how someone is more likely to get me to animate something:
- Give me something to work with. When players are moving about it is really hard and sometimes jaring to hop into an npc they might just walk right past. The more a player interacts with the world around them the more easily a staff member can then interact with the player. Pay attention to the npcs and vnpcs around you and role play with them regardless of if there is staff around and you'll probably see them come to life a little more.
- Wish up whenever you're doing something that you feel the staff would want to know about, that the virtual world should react to. A great example is if you are sneaking into someplace you don't belong, traveling through enemy terroritory.. Ect. Additionally email your clan staff ahead of time so they can know what's going on when and have time to prepare.
- You always have clan staff. Even if you are independant there is a team whose job it is to watch out for you. Know who your clan staff is and keep them updated on what is going on. There are a lot of characters and it can be hard to pay attention to every one, especially if they are not emailing.
Anyway, those are my tips and views on the matter. This is by no means an official post. Thank you.
I've noticed an appreciable increase in animations, echoes, etc.
I like the change.
I personally love doing animations and echoes, especially random ones that add just a touch of flavor to whatever is going on. However, you have to keep in mind some things when considering how often these things happen. Watching PCs and animating NPCs is not the only thing the staff does. We also:
*Process requests sent through the request tool. Reimbursements, kudos, complaints, special applications, skill changes, description changes, questions, and so forth. Some requests take longer than others to process.
*Answer emails. Some staffers get totally swamped with tons of emails to answer, if they have a large and active clan, or if they have some players in their clans who simply send lots of emails for whatever reason. This is part of the reason why now, someone keeps an eye on emails that go for a certain amount of time unanswered, to give us a little kick in the ass to say "Hey, this needs to be taken care of!"
*Build items/NPCs/rooms/areas. Depending on what is getting built, and how much of it is getting built, this can be a very long and tedious process. Sometimes, it requires enough concentration that we have to block out the rest of the mud world so that we can focus on it, get it done, and get it done right. That isn't even touching new bits of code that get added in by the code gods.
*GMH staff has the responsibility of loading up items for sale by PC merchants and agents. Depending on what sort of items are requested, how many of them are requested, and how vague or specific the requests are, this can either be very time consuming, or very quick and painless. There are TONS of items in the game, and two keywords that one might think would bring up exactly what they want right away could potentially yield a huge list of similar items that has to be waded through in order to find the right one. (This is also why some reimbursement requests take a while to get processed.)
Availability of staffers also fluctuates, which can cause certain staffers who were doing those things to be doing them at other times of the day. We staffers also don't get to communicate with other about things in real time due to availability and playtimes, so we have to resort to slower email conversations that can gunk up the process of getting decisions made.
Concerning the rotations of staff, yes, it sucks to be stuck in a position with a character who's been doing things, and you suddenly have a new staffer who has no idea what's going on. I've been in that position as a player myself. That doesn't make it suck any less for us. I've recently been rotated to a totally different area of clans, and I'm still catching up on everything that's going on. You can't expect new staff to immediately know everything that is going on in your clan as soon as they switch in. Sending them emails outlining your PC and their doings, as well as any plots they've been pushing is immensely helpful in getting your new staff brought up to speed, and helps to prevent the ball from getting dropped. Yes, it sucks for a long lived PC where you would end up doing this multiple times, but if that's what it takes to keep things going for you, then that's what you should do.
We aren't trying to screw anyone over, we really aren't. We want you to have fun and get into trouble and die awesome deaths. We just can't be there 24-7 to do everything that needs to be done, as much as we would like to.
Totes. I res'd this thread more to check in on how everyone's percieved this large change to the way staff interacts with PC's, especially leaders towards the top of the food chain (Nobles, Agents, Templars) who no longer have PC to NPC interaction In Game.
It was in no way meant as a jab towards the staff -- I think you guys are doing a good job. I think ASS (A strange shadow) has some good points in her posts as well.
I believe Arm would benefit from a grey area as far as staff interaction and IC events being translated through email. Instead of saying "We will not be animating your superior NPC's anymore", it might be more encouraging to say "Not as often as before."
While it is definitely tedious for staff, and players, to have higher up meetings that just 're-cap' what can be, or already was, sent in an email...In fact, such situations are -perfect- for emails and leaving it at that...I don't think the staff should cut higher up NPC animation entirely.
It's nice to plot against your boss, or disagree with -their- ideas that go against what your PC wants. While I love having the mentality of "Be the change you want to see"...I'd also like the game world to breathe, instead of feel like there's an OOC cuttoff that your PC can't get past, or acknowledge IG.
"I'll have to ask my boss about that." just has a different connotation now, I suppose.
EDIT: To add -- I meant to finish by stating a PC can't have an actual relationship with their boss now. They can't feel they hate them, that they want to work with them, that they want to off them, or that they could do their job better. Now it is much harder to seperate what an IMM feels and thinks should be happening IG from an NPC boss. It feels much more like an IMM now, for obvious reasons.
To immortals -- Do you still take the boss NPC's personality and foci into account? Have you considered this loss of personality to clan edicts and decisions?
With the exception that 2 NPC's -might- have been Imm animated over the course of the past 3 RL months, I'd say that my perception of imm interaction IC and watchful oversight has decreased. Heck, I don't even know who my clan imms are, though that's on account of my own laziness.
Now, I'm probably just delusional, but I get the feeling that there may be things happen behind the scenes in response to some of my character's actions, that affect my character in a way I like much better than overt, immortal intervention. No longer am I looking over my shoulder for an imm praise or correction. Now I play a character who looks to the people immediately around him rather than some NPC avatar. Now everything just works out ICly in a way that feels much more natural. It feels like karma.
What I have noticed is an amazing amount of effort being put into modifying old code and build new code and that has made the play of 1.Arm a lot of fun. It is really awesome. I don't know if this comes to any changing in the staff protocol or assignments, but I hope the changes keep rolling.
What Reiloth said in his last post, reflects -exactly- how I've been feeling. I totally love the random animations, the occasional clan NPC that pops up to toss a wrench in the gears of clan living..the occasional noble npc who comes for a visit to the tavern and spread a rumor or offer a gift..
but I'd give up -most- of that..in exchange for occasional visits from my character's boss.
(most, because I still love those un-boss things!)
It has been my experience that animated "boss" npcs usually squash any plans your pc has.
Underling npcs animated usually support plans your pc has.
Highly relative.
So what Eloran? No one's saying they want an imm-animated NPC to go along with their ideas. They're saying they want boss NPC interactions. Or, at least some of us are.
Quote from: Lizzie on May 22, 2009, 09:57:27 PM
So what Eloran?
So what? I enjoy having my ideas supported by npc colleagues as opposed to being shot down by bosses, that's what.
Quote from: Lizzie on May 22, 2009, 09:57:27 PM
No one's saying they want an imm-animated NPC to go along with their ideas.
I never said anyone was. I was making an observation.
Quote from: Lizzie on May 22, 2009, 09:57:27 PM
They're saying they want boss NPC interactions. Or, at least some of us are.
That's fine and dandy. I just personally prefer interactions with npcs that are on my level.
Quote from: Eloran on May 22, 2009, 09:36:32 PM
It has been my experience that animated "boss" npcs usually squash any plans your pc has.
Underling npcs animated usually support plans your pc has.
Highly relative.
I want an NPC boss to squash my idea. That gives me direction, and tells me what i'm doing wrong, or rather, what I can do that will appease my boss, and still get my shit done. I want to have something superior to my PC to either look up to, loathe, fear, or distrust. It's not very Zalanthan to feel like you're at the top of the food chain.
Are you NPC underlings going along with your idea because they agree with it, or because they know it's stupid and want you to feck up so they can get your job?
Quote from: Reiloth on May 22, 2009, 10:02:20 PM
That gives me direction, and tells me what i'm doing wrong, or rather, what I can do that will appease my boss, and still get my shit done.
In my experience, a lot of times bosses would chop down my ideas because they might conflict with their own progress in the clan's chain of command.
Quote from: Reiloth on May 22, 2009, 10:02:20 PM
I want to have something superior to my PC to either look up to, loathe, fear, or distrust. It's not very Zalanthan to feel like you're at the top of the food chain.
Valid point, but I don't think you need boss npcs to accomplish this. There are other ways. Perhaps you could look up to, loathe, fear, or distrust a PC superior or nemesis?
Your superiors not wanting you to do something is a LOOOOOONG way from you not actually being able to do it.
Quote from: Reiloth on May 22, 2009, 07:24:50 PM
To immortals -- Do you still take the boss NPC's personality and foci into account? Have you considered this loss of personality to clan edicts and decisions?
We absolutely consider the NPC boss that something is reported to and their reaction. Their personality and their viewpoints have a definite input in to what reply people get in emails. We also try to represent the overall feeling that the house would have on something while letting players know that they have the power to action things
As far as loss of personality goes - yes, there is some disconnect with regards that the npc bosses are now much more a faceless entity than before. We do still animate senior npcs if the staff member feels it's needed, what we aren't doing is logging in to have that recap meeting with underlings. We found that many players often sat waiting for that meeting for direction or to be told what to do. For most staff in game when looking at their clans they may have around 40 or so pcs to 'look after'. Not animating the bosses for the 4 - 8 leader pcs in that group as often as before means that they have the time to observe and add input and flavor for the rest of that group.
The system isn't perfect, and as one of the other staffers said we don't have the manpower to keep up with all the random interactions people want. There are definitely areas that we need to improve on, and we will likely be looking at the current system and reviewing it in a couple of months time.
Note - One of our other reasons for moving to this system is that based on feedback over the years, and feedback we had for Arm 2 players wanted a much more malleable world where they could have more influence, and they could get to the top of the food chain. The premise of Arm 2 is that it's a much more player driven world, which means creating the stories, making the changes and deciding the direction is done by players. This system is, in part, an experiment for us all to see how things might lean with players being the top dogs. Obviously due the to the restrictions and overhead that our huge virtual world has it's not ideal, there are still limitations, but it has been helpful in providing some insight as to where guidance is needed, where we should be stepping back, and where we need to step up.
Quote from: Adhira on May 22, 2009, 10:16:04 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on May 22, 2009, 07:24:50 PM
To immortals -- Do you still take the boss NPC's personality and foci into account? Have you considered this loss of personality to clan edicts and decisions?
We absolutely consider the NPC boss that something is reported to and their reaction. Their personality and their viewpoints have a definite input in to what reply people get in emails. We also try to represent the overall feeling that the house would have on something while letting players know that they have the power to action things
As far as loss of personality goes - yes, there is some disconnect with regards that the npc bosses are now much more a faceless entity than before. We do still animate senior npcs if the staff member feels it's needed, what we aren't doing is logging in to have that recap meeting with underlings. We found that many players often sat waiting for that meeting for direction or to be told what to do. For most staff in game when looking at their clans they may have around 40 or so pcs to 'look after'. Not animating the bosses for the 4 - 8 leader pcs in that group as often as before means that they have the time to observe and add input and flavor for the rest of that group.
The system isn't perfect, and as one of the other staffers said we don't have the manpower to keep up with all the random interactions people want. There are definitely areas that we need to improve on, and we will likely be looking at the current system and reviewing it in a couple of months time.
Note - One of our other reasons for moving to this system is that based on feedback over the years, and feedback we had for Arm 2 players wanted a much more malleable world where they could have more influence, and they could get to the top of the food chain. The premise of Arm 2 is that it's a much more player driven world, which means creating the stories, making the changes and deciding the direction is done by players. This system is, in part, an experiment for us all to see how things might lean with players being the top dogs. Obviously due the to the restrictions and overhead that our huge virtual world has it's not ideal, there are still limitations, but it has been helpful in providing some insight as to where guidance is needed, where we should be stepping back, and where we need to step up.
Thanks for the response Adhira.
I totally think the re-cap meetings IG between NPC leaders and their underlings were...Kind of redundant. I think emails, from what i've seen, have worked -very- well for that sort of thing. It really helps not having to arrange a pointless meeting between a staff member, who's obviously busy, and a player, who's obviously busy as well.
With that out of the way though -- Should we expect to see that random bump in with our bosses, from time to time?
There are some great relationships that I remember from even a year ago or so, where the boss NPC, even though animated sparsely, really -FELT- like a PC. They'd stop by, when they knew that the PC's they were asking for weren't online, just so underling A tells boss B "Hey, Soandso was looking for you". And that'd be enough to make them gulp. Y'know? There isn't a sense of that anymore.
The thing about these NPC's is that it's -impossible- for your PC to become their rank. If you do, you have to store. So -- If they don't like you, it makes you nervous. If they like you, you feel confident. If they are lazy, you feel jealous or uncaring of what they say. If they are gloating pigs, you talk shit about them behind their backs. Not across the boards, of course, but just sample 'emotions' that I feel are entirely missing now. We can't get to know our bosses. And it isn't really the same when you get an email that says "Well, In game, this would have happened." It seems more like a narrartive than actual interplay.
In essence -- Thumbs up to no more senseless animations just for the sake of covering it IG. Emails cover this nicely.
Thumbs up, also, to various random NPC animations of varying importance, ranging from beggars to bar-owners, to PC's superiors.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on May 22, 2009, 10:14:44 PM
Your superiors not wanting you to do something is a LOOOOOONG way from you not actually being able to do it.
Not when your Superiors are 100% NPC's, which also implies that they are 100% staff run. Thusly -- Certain plots, that require the staff to complete (Usually a HL, if you are considering projects like building, destroying, or something along those lines) are impossible without their help / intervention.
On a whole -- I agree. 90% of plots I have run in leadership roles just involve other PC's. There's no real reason to have to go through IMM's for those kinds of things. If anything, those other PC's have to involve their clan's staff to load items or something of that sort. A festival, for instance, can happen with very little encouragement or intervention from the staff -- This allows the staff to enter the festival as 'seasoning', rather than the concrete foundation of the entire RPT. A war, on the other hand...Unless it's going to be a brawl between two orginizations in the streets or wilds, just PC's...Well. That'd require quite a bit of staff attention. Dig?
Everything Reiloth said.
- the lass in front of ASS
I feel a lot of times that I should do >change ldesc is standing here, a big yellow exclamation point above her head.
Without my bosses giving me expectations, I'm just a quest dispenser and babysitter. And before anyone says to play a character and not a leader, take into consideration that one's character may be ambitious and requires a goal to proceed, and one's own subordinates may be the same way.
Quote from: Niamh on May 22, 2009, 03:54:12 PMI've recently been rotated to a totally different area of clans, and I'm still catching up on everything that's going on. You can't expect new staff to immediately know everything that is going on in your clan as soon as they switch in.
In my eyes, this is the perfect argument against staff rotation. I know you guys aren't trying to screw anyone over; I realize the challenges inherent in staffing over a playerbase that can act like a herd of insane tregils, and the complications which arise when trying to respect and work with established characters, especially if they are long-standing and multi-faceted - I realize that. That is why I think rotation should happen less often.
Consider that when you finally do get a handle on your "clan area" - it'll be time to move on. Does that feel conducive to efficiency? Armagedon's documentation and storylines are rich and deep, and the clans and the characters who populate them are no exception. Tackling an entire area of clans, learning them well enough to take them over with confidence, and then moving on in a mere six months seems highly unrealistic. It's a classic case of trying to stuff too much knowledge and learning into too short of a time, especially when considering that Armageddon is a hobby.
Perhaps this view is because I am more of a "long-haul" sort, but it's one that I think is legitimate and tempered with experiencing these situations over and over. I like situations that are rich, deep, and believable, and it's hard to accomplish that with only surface knowledge.
To answer Reiloth's question about NPCs: I do my best to take that into consideration, to try to find out before animating a "boss" NPC what this NPC is like. The NPCs that I've built myself for various things all have a little something about their personalities in their backgrounds - something I did to help out any other staff who would be animating them to know what they're like, and hopefully to help keep consistency among how the NPCs are roleplayed. As a player, I found it frustrating and jarring to have an NPC (especially a "boss" type) suddenly acting differently than they were before, so as staff, I try not to let that happen if I can help it.
In response to ASS: I have been rotated twice since I came on staff a little over a year ago, and the only areas I didn't have to play catch-up in when I switched were independents, because they aren't a clan in the same sense, and Bards, because I didn't rotate away from them during the first changeover. I can't speak for other staff, but I personally would rather pick one group and stick with it, because it would help keep consistency and such.
Suggestion for rotations, since this seems to be a part of the perceived problem (I say perceived, because not everyone feels this is a problem at all):
You got an average of 3 IMMs per clan, currently, give or take a few on the right side of the decimal point. So we'll use that as the example. Adhira, Nyr, Olgaris on clan A, B, and C. Adhira, Niahm, Thistle on clan D, E, and F.
Adhira's on all of these clans, so she'll be the trusty "informations person." She'll do the intitial animations when/as needed, with each of the appropriate other clan IMMs watching whenever they're available to do so. That way, they will see, rather than get an e-mail, exactly how these particular NPCs get animated. How they act, who they're pals with, who they're all business with, etc.
Nyr and Thistle have had the most opportunity to watch, so they become the 2nd-runner animators. Eventually, Adhira stops animating, and lets Nyr and Thistle do all of it, after a little while of observing to make sure they're not twisting these NPCs and making players go HUH?
Time for clan rotation. Adhira is moved on, Nyr and Thistle are now first-runner animators for their clan. Olgaris and Niahm become second, and Senga and Shaloooooooonsh come on board. Nyr and Thistle do their thing for awhile, until Olgaris and Niahm are comfortable doing it without close observation. Then Nyr and Thistle are rotated out, and Senga and Shalo(x74)nsh are second to Olgaris and Niahm.
In this way, there IS continuity. You will always have at the forefront, someone who is -already- familiar with the NPCs and their interactions with the players. There will be overlapping most of the time, because the first and second animators -both- work with the same NPCs, and have learned from each other. Neither is "stuck" being the only one who can handle it, for more than a week or so while the scond is getting used to it. And when one leaves, the other can easily pick up where the first left off, because they've already been doing it for a couple of weeks.
In summary, there needs to be a continual overlapping of NPC animations by staff members, plus the rotation of only -one- staff member in and out of each clan at a time.
Shure.
In theory, Lizzie, that's how it should work.
In practice - it doesn't seem to work at all.
The theories on rotations are nice, the reality of trying to run the administration side of things are a little different. Here's some background on why we rotate, and an explanation of how the current rotation system is intended to work. Warning, this is going to be long.
Staff Duties
Firstly, there is a difference between STs, HLs and OLs. OLs are head admin, they're deciding on the direction of the game, they resolve issues that other staff can't, they make the major game decisions and sign off on the big stuff.
HLs are the adminsitrators of the game, the 'middle management'. HLs may be on a clan but animations and storylines are not their priority. The HL is there to provide the continuity, oversight, guidance, sign off on ST projects and questions. The STs are the ones who make the game great by facilitating stories, and working with the players.
The recent model we have adopted is a group management model. When you have a group, such as the GMH group, you will find one HL and (at the moment) 2 STs. There isn't a lot of 'give' in there for those unexpected situations that force us to look at where staff are placed. So, while this clan group has 3 staff, only 2 are going to be running npcs etc in game, with HLs there as back up for major events, or to pick up the shortfall if a ST goes on a vacation.
Rotations
Rotations can be frustrating for all concerned, but they are a necessary overhead to managing this game. Staff members come and go, activity drops off, people resign, staff ask for less of a workload, a change in scenery. Other issues come up. Longevity of a staff member on a clan can be good, it can also have it's issues. Staff can become apathetic or overly protective, clans become stagnant and change can be hard to implement.
Recently Niamh was moved, this was to fill a gap where a clan had one active HL, and one ST who needed to go on a short hiatus, not rotating someone on to that area would have been a disservice. At the same time, we needed to look at where Niamh had come from, this meant we rotated another ST off GMH and put them in that spot. This was necessary to keep clan levels at a bare minimum. These rotatoins happened sooner that we'd have liked, and is not something we like to do often.
The Current Process
Our current process for rotating staff is based on our group system. One of the intentions of the group system is that we have more 'crossover'. The HL oversees all the clans in their group, read all the emails, builds up a good knowledge base. As far as the STs go each group chooses their own method for running the clans. For example the two groups I oversee, GMH and Southern Noble and Templarate are 'all in' affairs. Everyone gets the emails and works on every clan. Other groups are different, people might be assigned to a specific clan, for example Olgaris take the byn, but once again everyone is in on all the emails so that they know what's happening in the other parts of the group and can step in or give advice as needed.
Our intention with rotating is that the HL remains the same. HL swaps can occur, but the timeframes will be longer between shifts. For clan groups we like to rotate one ST off and leave one of the existing STs behind. This is to help with the continuity issues, and so that the new staff have time to catch up on things while the existing staff covers the workload. With rotations our aim is to keep an ST on a group for at least a year, before they're rotated off. This means we can, if needed, rotate every 6 months, shifting the longest serving ST off and keeping the one that's been there for 6 months.
That's the intended process, as already noted, events often transpire that cause alterations to the plan and staff swaps before they're needed.
At the end of it all I'd like to acknowledge that we staff do not use our time as efficiently as we could. The processes aren't perfect, there are often gaps, and things fall through the cracks. This isn't intentional, we do want to do a good job, but the fact is that we are working with a volunteer staff whose time, focus and energy is theirs to donate as they please. We try to manage this as best we can by putting in place systems and structures to support the game, players and staff. We do review what we are doing, we have made changes where we think things can be better and I see this as a continual process as we try and meet the needs of game, player and staff members.