Armageddon General Discussion Board

For the longest time I have been unable to hold an apartment IG. When I rent one, it invariably takes no more than three RL days (normally less than one) before it gets robbed. This has happened perhaps a dozen or two times in a row, from tenements to the most expensive building in the city, and it's starting to really tick me off. Most recently my character spent many weeks' worth of coin to rent an apartment, I go to bed, and when I wake up everything of any coded value is gone. For the past year or so, I don't remember having any apartment for a RL week straight without seeing it robbed in one way or another. Has anyone had better luck?

It's not that I want an impenetrable bastion of safety and privacy, this is Zalanthas after all a good deal of uncertainty is expected. Still, I feel that this really limits character development in certain ways, and likely has an influence on how much people are willing to buy from other players and merchant houses as well. It's just a portion of the game that is rendered more or less unplayable for me.

I think the problem stems from four things:

1) The lockpick skill is so simple and without any real risk. It can be a little troublesome to first find out where to acquire picks, and they're somewhat expensive as well, but beyond that there's no real challenge. Picking a door doesn't invoke the crime code, take any amount of time, alert the landlord, leaves no trace other than the door being unlocked, and the majority of the game's apartment doors take little skill to succesfully bypass this way.

2) Magickers of various types have access to some apartments by means of spells, and there's generally no stopping them from helping themselves to what they can access.

3) Anyone with the sneak and hide skills can rent an apartment, leave without losing the key, wait for it to run out and then go back a while later to empty it at their leisure. They can keep doing this for as long as they like. Some players have been known to specifically collect apartment keys for this purpose.

4) Just about everything can be sold because NPC merchants care little about the quality, condition and origin of an item as long as it falls into the category of items they're coded to deal in. Burglars and opportunitists thus tend to take everything they recognize as being sellable.


edited title for amgiuity

Maybe we need more observant apartment minders?

Completely agreed.  Apartments are worthless as storage.  Only good for mudsex and assassinating people (when you're done having mudsex with them).

I've said before that burglary, as a profession, is broken and perhaps the lockpick skill should be removed.

I can imagine a few systems to make it more balanced, they require more intelligent NPC behavior than we generally see in Arm 1.0.

I think it'd be cool to be able to rent a guard at a lot of the apartments, a guy who stands just inside the door with a sword and a decent scan skill.

It'd be something at least.  Wouldn't do much, I guess, to anyone with maxxed stealth skills and given the ease of notching sneak and hide there's no shortage of people with ghost-like abilities in this area.  It would at least stop the robbing of heavy items that make you fail hide, or stop being hidden.

Renting a guard could even be something that Borsail or some rich merchant did - renting out guard slaves.

Or! We could expand on burglary entirely, and introduce other methods of locking doors other than brittle wooden locks with little wooden springs.

I don't see why picking a lock doesn't invoke crim-code.... It should. I've always thought it did.

Quote from: roughneck on December 28, 2008, 12:42:49 PM
Renting a guard could even be something that Borsail or some rich merchant did - renting out guard slaves.

I actually support this idea. Perhaps at least on the higher rent apartments, you can pay an extra, say, 100 'sid a month or something, to have a vNPC or regular NPC guard stand by your door. I don't see it going into the current code any time soon, but I think it would be a nice idea.

Perhaps if they see someone trying to pick the door, they cry thief and you get crimmed... maybe make it a bit more difficult for thieves, or at least make them THINK before picking every door in an apartment building (Which, I would think, SOME vNPC would notice it at some point and at least tell the landlord. Perhaps next time you get your key, they say that "the man with shifty eyes was seen in and out of your apartment recently. If you would like to add them to your list, please let me know."

I think that the hallways of large apartments should be busy enough with vNPCS to have crimflags that way only the most talented burglars can get in (which excludes like 90% of the problem). I mean, it's unrealistic to crouch in front of a door and pick it for an IG 20-30 minutes and not expect anyone to come by, especially in the hallway closest to the foyer.

I also think that the guard man should walk up and down the halls every IG day to lock all the doors. What I've noticed is that although a burglar will break in and steal things, it's your neighbors who rip it bone dry.

Just some thoughts.

Quote from: Archbaron on December 28, 2008, 12:56:43 PM
I think that the hallways of large apartments should be busy enough with vNPCS to have crimflags that way only the most talented burglars can get in (which excludes like 90% of the problem). I mean, it's unrealistic to crouch in front of a door and pick it for an IG 20-30 minutes and not expect anyone to come by, especially in the hallway closest to the foyer.

I also think that the guard man should walk up and down the halls every IG day to lock all the doors. What I've noticed is that although a burglar will break in and steal things, it's your neighbors who rip it bone dry.

Just some thoughts.

Eh, we want to make burglary harder for them, yes.... But not nerf them entirely.

But then again, as it was said, it's not that hard to notch up sneak and hide.

Quote from: Archbaron on December 28, 2008, 12:56:43 PM
I also think that the guard man should walk up and down the halls every IG day to lock all the doors. What I've noticed is that although a burglar will break in and steal things, it's your neighbors who rip it bone dry.

QFT and it's an awesome idea. I would like that. Alot.

I think this was in another discussion before but it's really unrealistic to have someone break into your house and practically carry off everything - bed included. You'd think a burgular would just take a quick inventory - Steal what he Needs, first (Food, water, coin) then steal his Wants if he has enough room. Not steal all three chests and the bin, the bed and the coatrack.

I mean. What the hell? Learn how to roleplay.

Thee magickers are the real problem here if you ask me.

Quote from: UnderSeven on December 28, 2008, 01:09:09 PM
Thee magickers are the real problem here if you ask me.

I'm inclined to agree, considering that the door has often remained locked despite the theft, though it's hard to say for certain since you're normally not there to witness it. There was a recent code change to allow burglars to relock a lock, but it happened a lot before that as well, and besides I don't think most regular burglars bother with that considering the time, trouble and risk of breaking picks.

Quote from: brytta.leofa on December 28, 2008, 12:07:54 PM
Maybe we need more observant apartment minders?

They all scan, and are 'observant' in direct proportion to the expense level of the building.  In some cases they have maxed scan, but in no case are they gimpy scanners.  I don't see how we can make them more observant.

Quote from: Good Gortok on December 28, 2008, 11:10:04 AM

3) Anyone with the sneak and hide skills can rent an apartment, leave without losing the key, wait for it to run out and then go back a while later to empty it at their leisure. They can keep doing this for as long as they like. Some players have been known to specifically collect apartment keys for this purpose.

I am working on a solution to this problem that does not involve making tons of new key objects.

Burglars in my opinion are very sad. Compared to other guilds, the 'only' thing they're good at is .. picking doors. The rest is either subpar, or not really even close to usefulness compared to the skills of other mundane guilds. If burglars were something 'more' then a gimped assassin, if burglars could show their mastery in other ways then robbing a whole 'city' clean. I'm sure there'd be less emphasis on burglarizing from that guild.

Quote from: Dar on December 28, 2008, 02:08:34 PM
Burglars in my opinion are very sad. Compared to other guilds, the 'only' thing they're good at is .. picking doors. The rest is either subpar, or not really even close to usefulness compared to the skills of other mundane guilds. If burglars were something 'more' then a gimped assassin, if burglars could show their mastery in other ways then robbing a whole 'city' clean. I'm sure there'd be less emphasis on burglarizing from that guild.

QFT.  Just get rid of burglars.  Assassins and pickpockets are the only two rogue classes we need.  Burglary as a profession is ridiculous.

Quote from: Dar on December 28, 2008, 02:08:34 PM
Burglars in my opinion are very sad. Compared to other guilds, the 'only' thing they're good at is .. picking doors. The rest is either subpar, or not really even close to usefulness compared to the skills of other mundane guilds. If burglars were something 'more' then a gimped assassin, if burglars could show their mastery in other ways then robbing a whole 'city' clean. I'm sure there'd be less emphasis on burglarizing from that guild.

As someone who plays the burglar class regularly (the class, mind you, not the profession) I can attest that it is actually a useful guild. They're moderate thieves with the ability to peak, unlike even the thief subguild, and can hold up combat rather well against assassins and rangers (and with a bit of training, even warriors). They also make great spies because they're coupled with the listen skill, unlike assassins. You just have to be creative with them. Use your skills to infiltrate or lurk around or steal or do something that strikes people as original. The burglar guild has a unique set of skills that fit my playing style, and probably the playing styles of others.

Bottom line, getting rid of burglars isn't going to stop all apartment theft.

Quote from: Archbaron on December 28, 2008, 02:25:23 PM

Quote from: Dar on December 28, 2008, 02:08:34 PM
Burglars in my opinion are very sad. Compared to other guilds, the 'only' thing they're good at is .. picking doors. The rest is either subpar, or not really even close to usefulness compared to the skills of other mundane guilds. If burglars were something 'more' then a gimped assassin, if burglars could show their mastery in other ways then robbing a whole 'city' clean. I'm sure there'd be less emphasis on burglarizing from that guild.

As someone who plays the burglar class regularly (the class, mind you, not the profession) I can attest that it is actually a useful guild. They're moderate thieves with the ability to peak, unlike even the thief subguild, and can hold up combat rather well against assassins and rangers (and with a bit of training, even warriors). They also make great spies because they're coupled with the listen skill, unlike assassins. You just have to be creative with them. Use your skills to infiltrate or lurk around or steal or do something that strikes people as original. The burglar guild has a unique set of skills that fit my playing style, and probably the playing styles of others.

Bottom line, getting rid of burglars isn't going to stop all apartment theft.

Burglars only have one skill that Assassins dont, and it's not listen.

Quote from: Dar on December 28, 2008, 02:38:20 PM

Quote from: Archbaron on December 28, 2008, 02:25:23 PM

Quote from: Dar on December 28, 2008, 02:08:34 PM
Burglars in my opinion are very sad. Compared to other guilds, the 'only' thing they're good at is .. picking doors. The rest is either subpar, or not really even close to usefulness compared to the skills of other mundane guilds. If burglars were something 'more' then a gimped assassin, if burglars could show their mastery in other ways then robbing a whole 'city' clean. I'm sure there'd be less emphasis on burglarizing from that guild.

As someone who plays the burglar class regularly (the class, mind you, not the profession) I can attest that it is actually a useful guild. They're moderate thieves with the ability to peak, unlike even the thief subguild, and can hold up combat rather well against assassins and rangers (and with a bit of training, even warriors). They also make great spies because they're coupled with the listen skill, unlike assassins. You just have to be creative with them. Use your skills to infiltrate or lurk around or steal or do something that strikes people as original. The burglar guild has a unique set of skills that fit my playing style, and probably the playing styles of others.

Bottom line, getting rid of burglars isn't going to stop all apartment theft.

Burglars only have one skill that Assassins dont, and it's not listen.

It's more like 6 skills, but the class is still retarded.

What if we set all/most of the PC doors on very high pick  (compete w/ the succurity guards around)
and then have more NPC doors where the rooms are loaded by the IMMs  for PC burglars?

You could also outlaw keys all together.  I mean, if each landlord's way of doing business is to collect a key... then it should be very suspicious if Amos is carrying around keys.

Quote from: My 2 sids on December 28, 2008, 03:03:16 PM
What if we set all/most of the PC doors on very high pick  (compete w/ the succurity guards around)
and then have more NPC doors where the rooms are loaded by the IMMs  for PC burglars?

You could also outlaw keys all together.  I mean, if each landlord's way of doing business is to collect a key... then it should be very suspicious if Amos is carrying around keys.

I like this.

Quote from: Synthesis on December 28, 2008, 02:46:07 PM

Quote from: Dar on December 28, 2008, 02:38:20 PM

Quote from: Archbaron on December 28, 2008, 02:25:23 PM

Quote from: Dar on December 28, 2008, 02:08:34 PM
Burglars in my opinion are very sad. Compared to other guilds, the 'only' thing they're good at is .. picking doors. The rest is either subpar, or not really even close to usefulness compared to the skills of other mundane guilds. If burglars were something 'more' then a gimped assassin, if burglars could show their mastery in other ways then robbing a whole 'city' clean. I'm sure there'd be less emphasis on burglarizing from that guild.

As someone who plays the burglar class regularly (the class, mind you, not the profession) I can attest that it is actually a useful guild. They're moderate thieves with the ability to peak, unlike even the thief subguild, and can hold up combat rather well against assassins and rangers (and with a bit of training, even warriors). They also make great spies because they're coupled with the listen skill, unlike assassins. You just have to be creative with them. Use your skills to infiltrate or lurk around or steal or do something that strikes people as original. The burglar guild has a unique set of skills that fit my playing style, and probably the playing styles of others.

Bottom line, getting rid of burglars isn't going to stop all apartment theft.

Burglars only have one skill that Assassins dont, and it's not listen.

It's more like 6 skills, but the class is still retarded.

Oh god, I'm sorry. You're right. I forgot the main steal/peek ones. So yeah ... but they're mostly inconsequential, some you have to basically abandon.

Quote from: My 2 sids on December 28, 2008, 03:03:16 PM
What if we set all/most of the PC doors on very high pick  (compete w/ the succurity guards around)
and then have more NPC doors where the rooms are loaded by the IMMs  for PC burglars?

You could also outlaw keys all together.  I mean, if each landlord's way of doing business is to collect a key... then it should be very suspicious if Amos is carrying around keys.

That would take burglars and toss em into a single player game. One of burglar's 'uses' in organizations, is to get into other people's apartments with a 'non robbing' goal in mind.

Quote from: Good Gortok on December 28, 2008, 11:10:04 AM
3) Anyone with the sneak and hide skills can rent an apartment, leave without losing the key, wait for it to run out and then go back a while later to empty it at their leisure. They can keep doing this for as long as they like. Some players have been known to specifically collect apartment keys for this purpose.

To me, this sounds like a lack of responsibility on the player's behalf.

Quote from: Archbaron on December 28, 2008, 02:25:23 PM
Bottom line, getting rid of burglars isn't going to stop all apartment theft.

The goal here isn't to remove apartment theft. There needs to be something in place to keep people moderate what/where they steal from. From experience, I have found out that most burglars do not take a few items and ditch the scene. For some reason, they keep taking -everything- from the apartment with little regard for who might notice them (vNPCs, NPCs, and PCs).

It wouldn't be so bad if there was some sort of recognized burglar tithe.

For example, one of those stone hands that can serve as a container of sorts. The recognized procedure is to leave it by the door with some coin (or maybe a gem or two). If a burglar comes in, he or she takes the tithe and leaves a personal token of some sort (maybe a Kruth card) to let other burglars know the tithe's been paid for the next few weeks. And stays hands off of the other possessions.

Something along those lines.

I doubt many would adhere to something like that.

I think this would be a different discussion if characters could hire guards, pay protection money, upgrade their locks, purchase locked and/or trapped containers, or simply keep the hours that a normal person in the world would.  As it is, not having a reasonably safe place to unpack or store goods shortcircuits quite a few merchant activities.  Try doing research with expensive materials in combination and losing them mid test, or having to replace your toolbox more than once.   

I know there are IC solutions to burglary, and I've seen some of them enacted.  Perhaps this will be self correcting over time.

I don't think the issue is the code. The issue is with the players.

It's Armageddon. If you're paying 100 'sid for a shitty room...expect someone to break in and take anything that looks good. Expect the lock to be shitty, too. Soldiers have better things to do than watch -your- door and make sure no one takes -your- stuff. If you pay more, you get a better lock.

I realize there are some players out there completely wiping out apartments. But there are also some really well played ones, as well. I've seen them. Someone who will come in, take a few things of worth, and just mess up your place.

To me, it sounds like something needs to be done about the current round of burglars in game. Or, don't keep precious things in your apartment. It's a level of trust, anyways. None of my characters have -ever- left anything they couldn't live without in their apartments. In Armageddon...you shouldn't really have a great deal. Especially not more than you can carry.

Just my two cents.

Probably the usual thing will happen. People will get fed up and stop renting apartments or putting anything in them. The current crop of burglars will find there's nothing left to steal and die off or retire. After a while, people will start feeling safe enough to leave things around again. And so it goes.

I am the one who's been robbing you blind!! HAHAHA.


Not really, but I have played quite a bit of burglars in my time, and I'd like to add a few ideas/suggestions.

For players.
1. Live in a shitty apartment, leave your door unlocked, and put everything in a shelf/cupboard/hearth. Most thieves that I've seen will walk right by it, after -maybe- sticking their head in to look around. The only problem I see with this, is you'll most likely have the people who live with you rob your apartment.
2. If you don't like that, you could always pay the local crime lord (and there always is one) to stop being robbed or kill the person who's been robbing you. They'll most likely know who it is since it's their job to know where the criminals are. The only problem I can see with this is shilling out the extra coin, or possibly just not knowing who the local crime lord is.
3.Poison a lot of food, or buy a lot of poisoned food. (many of my chars died to this simply because I didn't think it was realistic for them to sit and stare at a piece of fruit and wonder if it's poisoned, only one of my char's has been so paranoid) Just don't forget which food is poisoned, yeah?
4.Neighborhood watch.

emote points at ~figure, glaring.
say (with a harsh grumble, reaching for ~shortsword) I don' 'member your ass at the last meetin'!! Who the fuck are ya'?

Seriously, I think that could work, playing times could definitely make this hard, but just one char keeping an eye on the tenants could really help -everyone- out. So, 6 people keeping an eye on the tenants could help the city out by narrowing down exactly who the burglars are.
5. Ask for a day off, or get the kids a babysitter, and sit down, in front of your door, just waiting for their ass, maybe you could bring some friends along too. 90% of most burglars just don't knock before they begin picking, so when the door swings open, crack them over the skull.
6. Put some dye on your door-handle, and catch them red-handed.



For staff.
I doubt that the staff has a problem with burglars, but if you're looking for a solution to make players happy I have a couple ideas that might -help-, but not necessarily fix things.

1. Amos invents a new lock. Requires two lock-picks in hand to pick, and may break both while being picked.
2. A way to bar the door from the inside, (i believe that's been suggested somewhere on the GDB), because, realistically, every apartment is not going to be empty just because the players are not on. The VNPC population must be scared out of it's wits by the cloaked figures that randomly enter rooms.
3. Please, by god, please, make some rooms just damn near impossible to enter by picking the lock. I've wanted for so, so long to have to scramble up the side of a wall, and climb in through a window. -That- would be just fucking fun to roleplay, and dangerous to fail.
4.Put an NPC in unrented apartments that virtually lives there. PC burglar comes in looking to collect on deathtaxes, and gets whacked by NPC badass, because NPC's don't like being robbed either.
5. Kill the GDB, I'm pretty sure that will cut down on most every complaint.


IMHO, these are good suggestions, mostly, and though I know someone will find many many faults with them, I think the best thing that can be done is be thankful for the stress and antagony, because very often, I find myself with -nothing- to complain about, and having to make up virtual things like sickness or VNPC prejudice to occupy my time get's rather boring and complicated.

Quote from: Kevo on December 28, 2008, 04:55:27 PM
I am the one who's been robbing you blind!! HAHAHA.


Not really, but I have played quite a bit of burglars in my time, and I'd like to add a few ideas/suggestions.

For players.
1. Live in a shitty apartment, leave your door unlocked, and put everything in a shelf/cupboard/hearth. Most thieves that I've seen will walk right by it, after -maybe- sticking their head in to look around. The only problem I see with this, is you'll most likely have the people who live with you rob your apartment.
2. If you don't like that, you could always pay the local crime lord (and there always is one) to stop being robbed or kill the person who's been robbing you. They'll most likely know who it is since it's their job to know where the criminals are. The only problem I can see with this is shilling out the extra coin, or possibly just not knowing who the local crime lord is.
3.Poison a lot of food, or buy a lot of poisoned food. (many of my chars died to this simply because I didn't think it was realistic for them to sit and stare at a piece of fruit and wonder if it's poisoned, only one of my char's has been so paranoid) Just don't forget which food is poisoned, yeah?
4.Neighborhood watch.

emote points at ~figure, glaring.
say (with a harsh grumble, reaching for ~shortsword) I don' 'member your ass at the last meetin'!! Who the fuck are ya'?

Seriously, I think that could work, playing times could definitely make this hard, but just one char keeping an eye on the tenants could really help -everyone- out. So, 6 people keeping an eye on the tenants could help the city out by narrowing down exactly who the burglars are.
5. Ask for a day off, or get the kids a babysitter, and sit down, in front of your door, just waiting for their ass, maybe you could bring some friends along too. 90% of most burglars just don't knock before they begin picking, so when the door swings open, crack them over the skull.
6. Put some dye on your door-handle, and catch them red-handed.



For staff.
I doubt that the staff has a problem with burglars, but if you're looking for a solution to make players happy I have a couple ideas that might -help-, but not necessarily fix things.

1. Amos invents a new lock. Requires two lock-picks in hand to pick, and may break both while being picked.
2. A way to bar the door from the inside, (i believe that's been suggested somewhere on the GDB), because, realistically, every apartment is not going to be empty just because the players are not on. The VNPC population must be scared out of it's wits by the cloaked figures that randomly enter rooms.
3. Please, by god, please, make some rooms just damn near impossible to enter by picking the lock. I've wanted for so, so long to have to scramble up the side of a wall, and climb in through a window. -That- would be just fucking fun to roleplay, and dangerous to fail.
4.Put an NPC in unrented apartments that virtually lives there. PC burglar comes in looking to collect on deathtaxes, and gets whacked by NPC badass, because NPC's don't like being robbed either.
5. Kill the GDB, I'm pretty sure that will cut down on most every complaint.


IMHO, these are good suggestions, mostly, and though I know someone will find many many faults with them, I think the best thing that can be done is be thankful for the stress and antagony, because very often, I find myself with -nothing- to complain about, and having to make up virtual things like sickness or VNPC prejudice to occupy my time get's rather boring and complicated.

I endorse everything here.

Quote from: dustbunny on December 28, 2008, 04:32:49 PM
I don't think the issue is the code. The issue is with the players.

It's Armageddon. If you're paying 100 'sid for a shitty room...expect someone to break in and take anything that looks good. Expect the lock to be shitty, too. Soldiers have better things to do than watch -your- door and make sure no one takes -your- stuff. If you pay more, you get a better lock.

I realize there are some players out there completely wiping out apartments. But there are also some really well played ones, as well. I've seen them. Someone who will come in, take a few things of worth, and just mess up your place.

To me, it sounds like something needs to be done about the current round of burglars in game. Or, don't keep precious things in your apartment. It's a level of trust, anyways. None of my characters have -ever- left anything they couldn't live without in their apartments. In Armageddon...you shouldn't really have a great deal. Especially not more than you can carry.

Just my two cents.

First of all, the type of apartment doesn't seem to make much of a difference. In fact, it seems to me that burglars aspire to break into the most expensive apartments possible with the reasonable assumption that someone who can afford a place like that will have things worth stealing. I've had apartments in every block in both cities and there hasn't been much difference in the frequency of theft, partly, I suspect, because actual burglary with lockpicks doesn't actually account for the vast majority of it. Also because becoming skilled enough to best all but the strongest (and rarest) locks doesn't take a terribly long time.

Secondly, I don't agree with the notion that Zalanthans generally don't own any more than the proverbial shirts on their backs. Maybe in the desert and the absolutely poorest quarters of the cities, but I'm pretty sure just about anyone who can afford an apartment also has a fair amount of belongings: clothes, tools, utility items, cards and other games, food and water for at least a few days at a time. It's also a matter of playability as you're fairly limited in what you can do if you have only what you can carry, and as mentioned, many players probably refrain from using merchants as much as they would if they knew they could have some degree of certainty that they'd keep their things. Currently, the only thing that keeps apartments from being utterly without purpose is that the basic furniture such as beds, ovens and couches usually can't be picked up.

It's a matter of playerbase mentality. If the code allows it, some will do it even if at the expense of everyone else. I don't think this can be helped without eliminating the problem entirely. I remember reading an old post by Sanvean berating players for stealing the couch out of the Bard's Barrel, and apparently the only way to avoid this was to make it no_take. I don't want burglary to be impossible, but evidently the current system is too easy to abuse, or has too many burglars in proportion to the number of apartments, that it more or less ruins that aspect of the game.

Bribe your local authority to strategically place enforcement.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on December 28, 2008, 04:10:59 PM
It wouldn't be so bad if there was some sort of recognized burglar tithe.

For example, one of those stone hands that can serve as a container of sorts. The recognized procedure is to leave it by the door with some coin (or maybe a gem or two). If a burglar comes in, he or she takes the tithe and leaves a personal token of some sort (maybe a Kruth card) to let other burglars know the tithe's been paid for the next few weeks. And stays hands off of the other possessions.

Something along those lines.

Find out IC

Quote from: Marauder Moe on December 28, 2008, 12:38:32 PM
Completely agreed.  Apartments are worthless as storage.  Only good for mudsex and assassinating people (when you're done having mudsex with them).

This.

Quote from: Vanth on December 28, 2008, 01:23:01 PM

Quote from: brytta.leofa on December 28, 2008, 12:07:54 PM
Maybe we need more observant apartment minders?

They all scan, and are 'observant' in direct proportion to the expense level of the building.  In some cases they have maxed scan, but in no case are they gimpy scanners.  I don't see how we can make them more observant.

You can't. Because most any burglar worth their salt has not only max stealth abilities, but most likely a very well known set of gear that further offers their stealth a tremendous boost, far beyond anything that can boost scan (and which is much rarer anyways).

And in any case, the problem, 3/4th of the time has to do less with that local kleptomaniac burglar with 20,000 sids in the bank, as it does with one or two magicker sorts.

Apartments.  A great place to go to die if you're tired of playing your character.

Think of it like sticking a giraffe in a hole.

Apartments need to have their locking mechanisms revamped, I've thought this for a long time ever since my first burglar lived past 10 days.  I think if the lockpicking system had a makeover there would more reason to use apartments as more than just a place to mudsex or kill another player.  This of course should take place in Arm 2, rather than in the current incarnation imo.

There was a good post made by Betaal in a thread I posted a while back which was focused on locks (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,31166.0.html):

Quote from: Betaal on June 08, 2008, 12:09:09 PM
I believe there are several different levels at which the play of the burglar should be addressed.  The current day burglar has created an all-or-nothing situation with their victims.  Either goods are locked behind completely inaccessible storerooms in completely inaccessible GMH compounds, or they are a free-for-all for nearly any burglar with enough time on their hands.  Issues that contribute to this are a lack of relationship between picks and locks, a lack of tools for a burglar to employ his/her skill in different ways, a lack of potential entries, and a lack of limitations/consequences on one's movement.

> Lack of relationship between picks and locks.

I agree with the OP that it would be nice to have both a variance of locks and a variance of picks that go along with a burglar's level of skill -- and not only a vertical scale in way of lock and pick quality, but lateral movement in types of locks that are used and what tools are required to bypass them.  That might create a little more fun for the burglar if they have to carry a suite of tools because they never know what kind of lock they might come up against.

> Lack of tolls for a burglar to employ his/her skills.

When I say tools, I don't necessarily mean lockpicks.  I'm referring more to ways that he/she can use their skills and knowledge to infiltrate even guarded or visible doors.  Ways to distract guards which temporarily removes their "guard" status on the door.  Using the new adverbial commands Morgenes has posted about, perhaps it will be possible to quietly pick a lock, so that your PC is visible, but perhaps other NPC's/PC's will not see them picking the lock unless they are actively watching them.

> Lack of potential entries.

There should be more freedom in Arm 2.0 to allow for multiple entries including windows and rooftops.  However, simply because they exist doesn't mean that they will be easily accessible or everyone will fit into them.  There may be a benefit to having a small and thin burglar if wriggling through holes is something they prefer to be doing.  Many of these would also require fairly frequent use of the climb skill.

> Lack of limitations/consequences.

There's little consequence to breaking into an apartment once the job is done.  The PC/NPC that might ICly be sleeping within that chamber has 0% to do anything about it.  The surrounding NPC's rarely react in any realistic way once you are past their initial guard.  (i.e. They won't let you in, but they'll certainly let you out dragging a couch and 2 bulging bags worth of somebody's goods.)  It'd be interesting if these choke points or access areas checked for your key on your way in and out, especially if you had a large amount of goods.  And one way to combat avoiding them might be to have weight have a significant consequence on one's ability to sneak/hide.  This may limit how much a potential burglar can manage to haul out of a building, forcing them to choose (more realistically) what pieces they really want to take with them instead of just loading up everything and dragging it to their apartment.

> Other limitations.

It wouldn't be fair to simply give burglars even more methods and abilities to barge into chambers and steal what they want, so it would probably be a good idea to represent some of the other ideas that have been suggested on the forums.  The ability to bar a door from the inside, making it near impossible to enter quietly, would offer some PC's some peace of mind.  Also the potential for there to be some kind of IC reaction to a burglar's presence within a building/home when the PC/NPC isn't represented physically, but is registered as there ICly.

There are many aspects of burglary in general that should be addressed in Arm 2.0, and I'll certainly do my part in attempting to make my settlement comprised of the elements I can control in this equation -- implementing multiple entries into some buildings and homes, creating guard patterns/rotations that give players a chance to infiltrate larger organizations and/or buildings, and a three dimensional area so they can choose multiple methods of travel around a certain area of the settlement.

That isn't to say I plan to make it easy, but that I'll plan to make it interesting.

Quote from: Clearsighted on December 28, 2008, 06:54:50 PM
And in any case, the problem, 3/4th of the time has to do less with that local kleptomaniac burglar with 20,000 sids in the bank, as it does with one or two magicker sorts.

How can you possibly know whether it's magickers 3/4th of the time or not?

Quote from: Whoa Nelly on December 28, 2008, 08:19:07 PM
Apartments.  A great place to go to die if you're tired of playing your character.

Think of it like sticking a giraffe in a hole.

:D

What if you could bolt or bar the door from the inside to make it impenetrable. This way, if you log out in your apartment, it can't be picked (since there's a bolt/bar across the inaccessible end).

These bolts would be automatically opened when the rent expires.

This would encourage people to quit out in their homes, make people more vulnerable to being tailed perhaps, but certainly it would make burglarizing the home much more risky, as essentially you'd have to do it when the tenant is AWAKE and IN GAME, or at least NOT AT HOME.

Now you have a situation where the burglar may have to have help, one person to go into the apartment, and the other to keep an eye on the guy who owns it. You'd have to figure out who that is, of course, and set up some kind of warning system.

Right now you have solo-buglar x robbing places when there's 11 people online, and largely avoiding any kind of threat of interaction from PCs or staff. Lets change that.

-KIA

Quote from: KIA on December 28, 2008, 09:08:13 PM
Right now you have solo-buglar x robbing places when there's 11 people online, and largely avoiding any kind of threat of interaction from PCs or staff. Lets change that.

-KIA

I couldn't agree more.

I've always agreed with that, and it is such a simple fix.

Even if I've never had much of a burgler problem myself.

Barring doors was suggested a long time ago, and the problem is this: what happens when the person barring the door never bothers to log in again? A whole room or building effectively is removed from the game.

NOTE: not all rooms with lockable doors are for rented apartments.

EDIT: also, what happens to shared living space? You go home and bar the door and your wife suddenly can't get in?

Quote from: KIA on December 28, 2008, 09:08:13 PM
What if you could bolt or bar the door from the inside to make it impenetrable. This way, if you log out in your apartment, it can't be picked (since there's a bolt/bar across the inaccessible end).

These bolts would be automatically opened when the rent expires.

I like and dislike this idea. Mainly, because this will allow certain guilds to go all around the world freely, and 'still' have an impenetrable place of storage and rest somewhere, simply due to their ability to ignore doors ... or laws of physics.

Quote from: KIA on December 28, 2008, 09:08:13 PM
What if you could bolt or bar the door from the inside to make it impenetrable. This way, if you log out in your apartment, it can't be picked (since there's a bolt/bar across the inaccessible end).

This idea has potential.


Also, to clarify, I love guild_burglar.  I just dislike skill_lockpick.  Burglars are a great guild, they just need to be called "rogue" or something rather than burglar.

Quote from: Salt Merchant on December 28, 2008, 09:32:23 PM
Barring doors was suggested a long time ago, and the problem is this: what happens when the person barring the door never bothers to log in again? A whole room or building effectively is removed from the game.

So?

Quote from: Dar on December 28, 2008, 09:34:48 PM
I like and dislike this idea. Mainly, because this will allow certain guilds to go all around the world freely, and 'still' have an impenetrable place of storage and rest somewhere, simply due to their ability to ignore doors ... or laws of physics.

Benefits of apartments with a bar on the door:
- more people spending coin on rent
- more people spending coin on items for decoration
       - more interactions for House crafters
       - more interactions for indies
- more players feeling 'attached' to zalanthas
- more realism
- more neat places to go/see (since these places will feel inhabited)
- more excitement for burglars
- a greater emphasis on RP skill/cunning for burglars

Drawbacks:
- a few powerful players will have a nice perk

QuoteBarring doors was suggested a long time ago, and the problem is this: what happens when the person barring the door never bothers to log in again? A whole room or building effectively is removed from the game.

Quote from: KIA on December 28, 2008, 09:08:13 PM
These bolts would be automatically opened when the rent expires.

Quote from: Wolfsong on December 28, 2008, 09:40:53 PM

QuoteBarring doors was suggested a long time ago, and the problem is this: what happens when the person barring the door never bothers to log in again? A whole room or building effectively is removed from the game.

Quote from: KIA on December 28, 2008, 09:08:13 PM
These bolts would be automatically opened when the rent expires.

NOTE: not all quit-safe rooms with lockable doors are for rented apartments.

EDIT: also, what happens to shared living space? You go home and bar the door and your wife suddenly can't get in?

Quote from: Salt Merchant on December 28, 2008, 09:42:34 PM
NOTE: not all quit-safe rooms with lockable doors are for rented apartments.

I'm pretty sure this thread is about apartments and safety.

Quote
EDIT: also, what happens to shared living space? You go home and bar the door and your wife suddenly can't get in?

This is trickier. 

Maybe have two apartment types.

Room 1) A small crappy room with a crappy lock
Room 2) A small crappy room with a big bar for the door

If you want to get snuggly with a roommate, rent room #1.  If you want your own room that, while you are sleeping, you can bar the door, rent room #2.

Let an actual key bypass the bar?  It would be as though the roommate weren't there at the time.

Quote from: Thunkkin on December 28, 2008, 09:45:23 PM

Quote from: Salt Merchant on December 28, 2008, 09:42:34 PM
NOTE: not all quit-safe rooms with lockable doors are for rented apartments.

I'm pretty sure this thread is about apartments and safety.

True, but it would seem a bit odd to only be able to bar apartment doors.

Get rid of burglars altogether.

Merge their skillset with pickpockets, change the class name to "Scumbag" and be done with it.

Make lockpicking branch from steal (makes about as much sense as some of the other branch schemes out there), so that experienced scumbags learn how to burglarize.

This will have the added benefit of making the pickpocket class marginally more useful, because they're currently practically restricted to inventory griefing.

P.S.  Allowing doors to be barred so that they can only be burglarized when the owner is currently logged in will make playing a burglar untenable for off-peakers.  Either that, or there will be one burglar/nomad during off-peak times who will travel the world to burglarize the 2 apartments in each city that actually belong to people who are logged in.

Quote from: KIA on December 28, 2008, 09:08:13 PM
What if you could bolt or bar the door from the inside to make it impenetrable. This way, if you log out in your apartment, it can't be picked (since there's a bolt/bar across the inaccessible end).

These bolts would be automatically opened when the rent expires.

This would encourage people to quit out in their homes, make people more vulnerable to being tailed perhaps, but certainly it would make burglarizing the home much more risky, as essentially you'd have to do it when the tenant is AWAKE and IN GAME, or at least NOT AT HOME.

Now you have a situation where the burglar may have to have help, one person to go into the apartment, and the other to keep an eye on the guy who owns it. You'd have to figure out who that is, of course, and set up some kind of warning system.

Right now you have solo-buglar x robbing places when there's 11 people online, and largely avoiding any kind of threat of interaction from PCs or staff. Lets change that.

-KIA

I love this idea, I think it has potential. Robbing while the player is online would be much riskier and provide more role-playing.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on December 28, 2008, 09:46:07 PM
Let an actual key bypass the bar?  It would be as though the roommate weren't there at the time.

If a key can be used to get past a barred door, why couldn't a lockpick be used?

It's not going to make sense.  It would be a playability fix to compensate for the fact that the person who would virtually occupy the apartment can't open it up for their roommate.

How does this fix the problem with supernatural raiders?

How would it affect mundane burglars who make an OOCly responsible living off the PC apartments available?

I'm not going to comment about supernatural raiders because... you're not supposed to talk about magick specifics on the GDB!

As for burglars, responsible or otherwise, they'll just have to work smarter.  Either risk having a tenant walk in on their pilfering (at which point they need an escape plan), or identify a tenant specifically and strike at times you know they won't be coming home (or a time you've ensured they won't be coming home), just like burglars IRL.

Quote from: Vanth on December 28, 2008, 01:23:01 PM

Quote from: brytta.leofa on December 28, 2008, 12:07:54 PM
Maybe we need more observant apartment minders?

They all scan, and are 'observant' in direct proportion to the expense level of the building.  In some cases they have maxed scan, but in no case are they gimpy scanners.  I don't see how we can make them more observant.

Ah, okay.  My main experience IG was with one in a less-prosperous neighborhood.

None of them will stop a PC with reasonable stealth skills. You're almost guaranteed to be good enough to sneak past without failure long before you're good enough to pick the locks.

I again think that burglary should be expanded upon entirely..... Locks and picks are entirely too common. Barring and bolting should be the mainstay, considering the technology of Zalanthas. Hell, I'm kinda surprised that the cheapest apartments have anything more than a guard to begin with.

Instead of starting with pick, burglars should get a skill that deals mostly with getting past simple devices like bars and bolts, and then branch pick. Give them a much slower speed of progression too.

I'd be in favor of giving burglars more places to steal from. More than just PC apartments.

Quote from: Jingo on December 29, 2008, 04:20:04 PM
I'd be in favor of giving burglars more places to steal from. More than just PC apartments.

This, more than anything else. Burglars, if surviving off their class strengths, are forced to rely almost entirely on PCs.

But they'd still rip off PC apartments, because they know that's where more money's gonna be.

If they have too little to gain from robbing other-than-pc-apartment places, they'll never be robbed, and if they have -alot- to gain from robbing these places, then they'll just get rich and fat off of essentially free shit every reboot.

The same is not true for rangers, pickpockets, etc, etc?

I do agree there should be more risk inherent. I've suggested somewhere at some point that thieves have a chance to be crim-flagged when trying to pick a door lock, if they are not successfully hidden when they're doing so.

Actually, I don't think Burglar guild is as cookie cutter as you assume it is now.  Yes, it used to be so, but pick lock skill got nerfed, now it costs to fail at a door.  I had a character who got the pick skill, and he lost about 1.5k coin without opening a single door (true, I was not aware of the change on pick skill so maybe it could be less if I heard of the change) Still, advancing in skill is costy for burglars at the moment.

Also, the number of "trainable" doors have decreased.  (The numbers I give you now will date more than a RL year, I am not sure if anything changed since) About 4 years ago, you could find NPC apartments, which were basically empty but the doors were locked and you could practice your skill.  Plus, testing your skill would cost virtually nothing.  Now almost all of those apartments are gone (doors are not locked anymore I think) and testing your skills can cost quite a lot.  So the PC burglars are severely limited I believe, when you compare it to a few years past.

That being said, I noticed last year that it was much simpler to steal anything through supernatural means.  Much more effective, with much less chance to get caught, with little restriction on skill requirement (basically, acquiring the necessary skills seems simpler than training the pick skill) and to be honest, not as costy as mundane means (at least that is what I observed).  If there is a burglary problem, there is a very good chance your mundane burglars are not responsible of it.  And I think, burglar guild is restricted enough, it will be crippling to nerf them anymore.

If you hire an NPC guard, your apartment is burglar proof.  While barring the door of your apartment sounds reasonable, when you log off, your character is still going through everyday errands virtually, so s/he is still leaving the apartment and the door should not remain barred until you log back in.  The addition of extra locks is the most reasonable idea that I have seen, but IG locks are very expensive.  Back in the day when Nenyuk had PC agents, I remember purchasing 5 locks for 20k.  So a lock is about 4k worth (and it was not the perfect lock, I am telling you).

While you want to keep your stuff safe for playability reasons, burglars also need to survive and their playability is as important as yours.  Moreover, if there is a burglar problem, I think it is most likely due to supernatural means.  There is very little you can do against it.

The funny thing is that the RL time of night when most burglars operate is when most of the RL players are asleep in their beds, yet at the same time, the IC time of night, (late at night, before dawn etc) that they usually operate, is when the PCs should be in their apartments.

Quote from: Vanth on December 28, 2008, 01:24:55 PM
I am working on a solution to this problem that does not involve making tons of new key objects.

I have an idea that doesn't involve new key items, but would require new lines of code.  How about we use an ambiguous sdesc and main desc for keys and then assign a random, 5 digit number to both the door and key (all unseen to the players) when a new person rents an apartment.  This would be kind of like a passkey kind of thing.  Techincally this would ICly mean that locks are changed after a tennant moves out.  We could assume that Nenyuk has hundreds in stock and that they are rotated through service in three phases: use, maintenance, and storage.  If the player has their key stolen it will still work until someone else rents the room and the locks are changed or until the landlord issues a new lock and key (for a nice fee) to the present tennant.

I don't know if this is the case or not, but...

It would seem to me a good group to keep an eye on the robbery situation should be the Guild.  Obvously, petty thieft happens from time to time... but, (and maybe this is an Imm thing) if we're having wave after wave for huge PC robberies... maybe the Guild needs to step in and control the situation.   I would think they'd function much like the GMH where if an independent makes enough disturbance... they have to address the problem.

Quote from: My 2 sids on December 29, 2008, 09:07:13 PM
I don't know if this is the case or not, but...

It would seem to me a good group to keep an eye on the robbery situation should be the Guild.  Obvously, petty thieft happens from time to time... but, (and maybe this is an Imm thing) if we're having wave after wave for huge PC robberies... maybe the Guild needs to step in and control the situation.   I would think they'd function much like the GMH where if an independent makes enough disturbance... they have to address the problem.

Heh. Find out IC :)

Quote from: My 2 sids on December 29, 2008, 09:07:13 PM
I don't know if this is the case or not, but...

It would seem to me a good group to keep an eye on the robbery situation should be the Guild.  Obvously, petty thieft happens from time to time... but, (and maybe this is an Imm thing) if we're having wave after wave for huge PC robberies... maybe the Guild needs to step in and control the situation.   I would think they'd function much like the GMH where if an independent makes enough disturbance... they have to address the problem.

Um... Tuluk? Not EVERYONE lives in Nak.

Red Storm has apartments and I'm -guessing- that the SandLord would have a few things to say about the Guild coming in and "controlling" any kind of "situation."

Also...I've had several apartments in the past few years that I've been playing, and I only know of two that were actually broken into with things stolen. Maybe y'all are just picking really crap-lock apartments, in buildings where every noob burglar uses for practice, so it's more likely that you'd be *someone's* success story?

Some buildings I've rented in have the locks picked every damned day. But...there are several buildings, and even in those buildings that get broken into constantly, some of those doors are -never- unlocked. They're also rarely available for rent, but you can get lucky once in awhile :)

I think if you have the tinker subclass you should have the option of adding another lock to a door.

Quote from: Lizzie on December 29, 2008, 10:23:47 PM
Maybe y'all are just picking really crap-lock apartments, in buildings where every noob burglar uses for practice, so it's more likely that you'd be *someone's* success story?

*cough* Or maybe there are a couple of players acting unreasonably, stealing from the same apartments, day after day after day, without any sort of repercussions for their actions.

I'M TOTALLY JUST SAYING....

It does not take prophet like me to predict that if peasants got locked apartments, they would demand locked chests and chastity belts too.

Instead of playing along with XXI century consumers staff should have killed all sources of common PC income. Work for water and, maybe, some food.
Nothing to store, nothing to steal. It's a win-win and should cease all complaints.

Let's see if economical model for Arm 2.0 will be any good to support whatever theme they have in mind, because harsh desert world has proven itself unplayable.

In the meanwhile, guild burglar should be given a new name, if people take the name of the class literally.

Quote from: Doppelganger on December 30, 2008, 05:49:35 PMIn the meanwhile, guild burglar should be given a new name, if people take the name of the class literally.

That's not really fair. Classes exist for a reason; warriors fight, rangers range, pickpockets steal, and assassins... well, okay...

While Armageddon's beauty lies in the flexible array of character concepts and stories, it doesn't change the fact that the class you choose decides what your character is good at, and players shouldn't be made to feel inferior because they play to those strengths.

Quote from: Doppelganger on December 30, 2008, 05:49:35 PM
staff should have killed all sources of common PC income. Work for water and, maybe, some food.

We're playing ArmageddonMud, not CaveMud.

Look at pretty much any civilization in history the size of Allanak or Tuluk and you'll find they had a system of coinage and it was the main medium of exchange.

Quote from: a strange shadowThat's not really fair. Classes exist for a reason; warriors fight, rangers range, pickpockets steal, and assassins... well, okay...

While Armageddon's beauty lies in the flexible array of character concepts and stories, it doesn't change the fact that the class you choose decides what your character is good at, and players shouldn't be made to feel inferior because they play to those strengths.

Guys, if you want a class that's better than burglars, do propose it. If lockpick is an instrument of evil, remove it.
If you can't play the class, that's understood, just move along and leave it to those who can.

Quote from: Salt MerchantLook at pretty much any civilization in history the size of Allanak or Tuluk and you'll find they had a system of coinage and it was the main medium of exchange.

Money should exist, but I do not see where your average peasant fits the history of civilization. The castes that should have money also have means to stash and protect their wealth. If you don't have means, you should have relieved of the money as well, one way or another.

Hell knows what else you godless commies would come up with once you get a locked chests. Democracy? Health care? Human rights?

Care to tone it down a bit? I don't want to be singed by the coming flames.

I think representing the NPC population in terms of housing, even if it -is- simple tenements, would make the burglar class a lot more viable and a lot less a thorn in the side of the PC population.

Also, making both the burglar -and- merchant guilds unviable does nothing to help, Doppelganger. Unless you want to make playing a mundane give even less variety in guild choices. I mean, god forbid I should have a place to securely (or even semi-securely) stash the things my merchant makes. Or that a burglar be able to make a living off the NPC and VNPC populations in large part. You know, because the 70 or so players in the 90 or so apartments must make up the majority of the world and so forth.

Quote from: AmandaGreathouseAlso, making both the burglar -and- merchant guilds unviable does nothing to help, Doppelganger.

Both guilds existed long before apartments.

Quote from: Doppelganger on December 30, 2008, 06:16:01 PM
Money should exist, but I do not see where your average peasant fits the history of civilization.

A peasant was an agricultural worker that subsisted on a small plot of land. Commoners inside the city of Allanak are not peasants. From what I can tell, they're mostly skilled tradespersons and retail merchants and live in a more sophisticated environment than small land holders did. To top it off, PCs tend to be exceptional commoners.

I shouldn't tell you this, but I'm working on a new krathi spell that should be in game soon.

It's going to be called "Meld Obsidian."

Unfortunately it will only be useful once, because the instant that it is cast all the obsidian coins in the world will meld together. This large hunk of melded obsidian created will be completely worthless everywhere in the world. The Templarate in the south would be willing to pay a million coins for it... but they won't have any coins. Kind of like a catch 22. This is part of the End of the World plot. Sorry for the spoiler.

Quote from: Doppelganger on December 30, 2008, 09:08:29 PM

Quote from: AmandaGreathouseAlso, making both the burglar -and- merchant guilds unviable does nothing to help, Doppelganger.

Both guilds existed long before apartments.

That's not entirely what I meant. What are you going to trade? For what? That's what I meant.

I read this halfway through page 3, so if someone else mentioned this then I guess I'm just repeating them, sorry!

In regards to door barring and roommates. One room apartment = one door = one bar. Two room apartments = two rooms = two bars... You get the idea. If you're sharing one room and are constantly barred out, bitch at the person barring (or try to arrange that you room with someone sharing similar playtimes so it doesn't happen often). If you have a bigger place where you can have your own room, bar your own door and leave the front door open. True, a burglar could still pick it and get the goodies in the livingroom, but they might not make off with all your clothing/personals.

I think that with things the way they're coded in the game now, making it possible to bar most (if not all) apartment doors would be a real kick in the nuts to people that play the Burglar class responsibly. The idea of making common apartments these impenetrable fortresses of solitude just irks me. I mean, I myself have suffered a burglar or two that's stolen absolutely every item and bit of furniture in my PC's apartment, so I know it can suck. But I know what it's like trying to make a living with a burglar PC, one who's isolated by both playtimes and IC necessity. If I had to wait for people to be logged in so I could do my thing, my last (and favorite, besides current) character would have been completely unplayable. And I don't mean just because he wouldn't be making coin.

Believe it or not, there's a lot of character development that can take place during these "solo raids". One of my fondest memories with that PC was when he went southside to "work" and found himself in an apartment that clearly housed a family. Now, I was doing a lot of short and off-peak playtimes back then (almost a year ago, now). Yeah, there was probably little risk of someone logging in on him or otherwise getting into the apartment. But moments like that were some of my favorite and most fulfilling in Arm, period. You know, piecing together other people's lives by looking over their belongings, ruminating on the life and possible family he was letting slip through his fingers even as he was robbing -that- family of their valuables, food and water. It was awesome, and fun as hell. He would've been a very, very boring character to me if those rooms would have been effectively cut out of the game by an insurmountable bar on the door.

I like to think I played that character well. By the time of his death, he was a really sneaky bastard, and he seemed to be getting quite skilled with the lock pick. I burglarized the -shit- out of the Commoners' Quarter. But I made an effort to show restraint, and to not twink out. I -never- stole a big piece of furniture. It was always just loose coin, small valuable items, cures and (occasionally) food items. And I -know- I'm not the only player to have shown this kind of restraint.

I think making apartments completely safe (or rather, much more safe than they already are) from mundane burglars because of code abuse by another player or two is almost a punishment for those that enjoy the class, and play it responsibly. So, big thumbs down from me on barring a room until code is implemented to let me break that fucking door down.

I would like to see something else then, possibly a random chance to be crimflagged if you've broken into an apartment where someone has quit out and not left it. If it is only a chance, that always allows for the possibility of them being gone. But also allows for the possibility of you busting in on their virtual selves. Or their virtual selves unlocking the room, looking in and seeing you, and then running like hell while waying the nearest soldier about it.

The random crimflagging thing doesn't seem so bad. The only thing is that it -sucks- to have every soldier in the citystate on your ass. The randomness of this kind of thing would almost make advance planning (besides an escape route) moot, because even your best laid plans and sneakiness don't matter in the face of a random dice roll.

The flip side of the coin is that many players, myself included, are not going to provide you with those interesting homes to look through until the situation changes.  Or at least, the perception of the situation needs to change.  I've never rented an apartment because it never appealed to me to carefully work on collecting and decorating (an activity I would normally love and be obsessed with) when everything is going to disappear randomly.  My characters, for very reasonable IC reasons, feel the same way.  If getting robbed meant a few of my valuables - even my most valuable valuables - vanished, I'd rent an apartment.  But the knowledge that my rug, crappy vase, etc. is going to vanish ... yeah, no thanks.  I'm not going to waste my OOC and IC time and money on that.

I think perhaps the issue is somewhat blown out of proportion. I held an apartment in Nak for a few rl months with plenty of decoration, personal effects and what not.  There were a couple times I found the door unlocked, but never had what I'd call a problem.

Which isn't to say that others haven't had issues, but just that the gloom and doom is getting a little carried away.

Quote from: staggerlee on December 31, 2008, 01:44:59 PM
I think perhaps the issue is somewhat blown out of proportion. I held an apartment in Nak for a few rl months with plenty of decoration, personal effects and what not.  There were a couple times I found the door unlocked, but never had what I'd call a problem.

Which isn't to say that others haven't had issues, but just that the gloom and doom is getting a little carried away.

In other places, burglar is a real-world-time weekly occurrence. 

I think the BIGGEST problem is the people who take everything, as many people have said.


Because this has become such a problem, maybe make burglar a karma class? Or make it a class that is ALWAYS watched, to make sure they're not twinking out?

I think it's pretty rare that burglars actually take everything from an apartment. This thread really seems to blow everything out of proportion. We are watching. Always. Like Big Brother only scarier because we don't only ruin one life, but every subsequent one attached to an account. If you think you've been the victim of twinkish burglarizing, send in a player complaint through the request tool.

We are contemplating a small change to the way that apartments work that will cut down on one aspect of twinkishness. And it isn't my "meld obsidian" spell. Overall, however, apartments provide the amount of security that they are supposed to.

Quote from: tortall on December 31, 2008, 02:56:20 PM
I think the BIGGEST problem is the people who take everything, as many people have said.

:nods
True enough. I suppose I wouldn't get as pissed off if they hadn't literally stolen everything. Even a nice little cock-roach I tucked in a corner for decoration...

If it were a crime to get caught leaving an apartment complex you didn't rent out of, carrying heavy stuff like tables out would make it easier for you to get caught just because of the normal stealth penalties from encumbrance.
Legit guests of renters (people visibly following an entering or exiting renter) would get a temporary "leaving is okay" flag, removed upon leaving with or without the renter.

Here is B's opinion on Apartments and Safety.

You'd think that since apartments came into being that we'd be happy enough to have the barrier of a door.. with a LOCK on it. Maybe I'm just old skool, but it seems to me that the newer batch of players shure luv their safety and privacy, and the safety of gear whether on one's person or in the place they keep their STUFF (Carlin RIP) is paramount. I've noticed over a long time of playing, that nothing pisses players off more then losing their STUFF. Even before apartments were widely available so that any 0-day rinther could walk into Allanak and purchase the apartment of their last character (to keep all their STUFF), it was pickpockets who needed to get nerfed and/or removed. I remember, cuz I was there.

So in my not so humble opinion, Burglars are needed to absolutely destroy and despoil that sense of security and what is "yours". It's what Burglars do. Since the apartments came into being for any person to come along and gather a mountain of STUFF, independant characters have increased in number, mudsexxx skills have increased, and tavern backroom rentals have plummeted, but weep not for the barkeeps, because it made every Burglar Class character smile. Sure, additional security measures for your 900 sid living space with multiple rooms, working fountain and mirror-paneled fur bed would be great, but then your probably a noble, and have full-time guards at your beck and call. If you are actually just some commoner filth, let the Templarate do their job.. if they feel like it. Bribe soldiers, be resourceful. Buglars nowadays are useful, have alot of opportunity to do what they do, and an equal amount of peril should they be discovered. Commoners and Uppity sorts that don't pay hand-over-fist in some way have a chance to lose their precious stuff.

On another note:
If burglars are being too ridiculous in robbing beds and other cumbersome furniture, then get involved and notify the imms to it and see if it wasn't an episode of abuse. Someone must have seen the dood who robbed your shag-carpeted bed.. or did they? We must remind ourselves that we don't know the whole story, so we can't know if a great heist was pulled on our STUFF.

So to you burglars out there, I think you're doing a great service in ripping people off, and any elf would be proud of you. Go on with your bad selves.

And to you non-burglars out there.. you know what must be done. To elves. AND burglars.

It seems to me that under the current system once a lock is picked anyone and multiple people can simply walk in and help themselves.  I mean, it could be the burglar was role-playing well (only taking a few items) but then an opened, unlocked door invited other PCs to walk in and slowly the room got picked clean.  By the time you log in, everything is gone and there is that player feeling of WTF?

Maybe a picked lock can have a timer on it so it relocks?  (Say the landlord noticed and had it replaced)   That way if one burglar is picking the place clean the IMMs can hopefully trace it to one twinking player and deal with the situation.

Quote from: My 2 sids on January 01, 2009, 10:25:12 AM
It seems to me that under the current system once a lock is picked anyone and multiple people can simply walk in and help themselves.  I mean, it could be the burglar was role-playing well (only taking a few items) but then an opened, unlocked door invited other PCs to walk in and slowly the room got picked clean.  By the time you log in, everything is gone and there is that player feeling of WTF?

Maybe a picked lock can have a timer on it so it relocks?  (Say the landlord noticed and had it replaced)   That way if one burglar is picking the place clean the IMMs can hopefully trace it to one twinking player and deal with the situation.

Every responsible burglar locks the door behind them. That gives it a chance for the owner to not 'notice' the theft, and choose against camping at the apartment, hoping for burglar's return/or similar precautions. And ofcourse it prevents other freeloaders from stealing the stuff the burglar wants to pick up next week.

Quote from: Dar on January 01, 2009, 02:02:41 PM
Every responsible burglar locks the door behind them. That gives it a chance for the owner to not 'notice' the theft, and choose against camping at the apartment, hoping for burglar's return/or similar precautions. And ofcourse it prevents other freeloaders from stealing the stuff the burglar wants to pick up next week.

Is this a new thing? You didn't used to be able to re-lock doors with a lockpick.  If so, it's very cool.

Quote from: Archbaron on December 28, 2008, 12:56:43 PM
I also think that the guard man should walk up and down the halls every IG day to lock all the doors. What I've noticed is that although a burglar will break in and steal things, it's your neighbors who rip it bone dry.

I still think this one solution would be enough. Posted in the first page of this thread.

Yeah, you can still get broken into and your neighbors still have a chance to pick you clean but atleast there is some assurance that your apartment won't stay unlocked for an in-game week before you log back in.

All these other ideas of "barring" your room or getting personal guards is retarded. Your going to bar yourself into your room? What are you? Twelve years old or something? This is Armageddon. Dangerous shit could be anywhere. Even the confines of our little "bar-safe" apartment. Hell, I feel more safe in the open then I do in enclosed areas.

Quote from: Gunnerblaster on January 01, 2009, 02:51:17 PM
Even the confines of our little "bar-safe" apartment. Hell, I feel more safe in the open then I do in enclosed areas.

There's something unspeakably creepy about a quiet clan compound with none of your mates logged on.

Quote from: Medena on January 01, 2009, 02:26:50 PM
Is this a new thing? You didn't used to be able to re-lock doors with a lockpick.  If so, it's very cool.

Quote from: Skill_Pick
This skill will allow your character to unlock objects or doors that are locked (if successful). Passersby don't always appreciate folks picking the locks on doors, so this skill ought to be used with caution.

Very skilled individuals can even relock doors and objects with this skill.

Quote from: Ourla on January 01, 2009, 03:56:26 PM

Quote from: Medena on January 01, 2009, 02:26:50 PM
Is this a new thing? You didn't used to be able to re-lock doors with a lockpick.  If so, it's very cool.

Quote from: Skill_Pick
This skill will allow your character to unlock objects or doors that are locked (if successful). Passersby don't always appreciate folks picking the locks on doors, so this skill ought to be used with caution.

Very skilled individuals can even relock doors and objects with this skill.

Yes, it is a new thing. It was introduced some time last year, I think.

Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on December 30, 2008, 07:15:32 PM
I think representing the NPC population in terms of housing, even if it -is- simple tenements, would make the burglar class a lot more viable and a lot less a thorn in the side of the PC population.

So to be fair, then, should we also create NPC burglars to rob your apartment if one of the PC burglars hasn't gotten around to it yet?

Or should we let the NPC population burgle the NPC population, and let the PCs do the same for each other?

Quote from: Vanth on January 02, 2009, 07:54:43 PM

Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on December 30, 2008, 07:15:32 PM
I think representing the NPC population in terms of housing, even if it -is- simple tenements, would make the burglar class a lot more viable and a lot less a thorn in the side of the PC population.

So to be fair, then, should we also create NPC burglars to rob your apartment if one of the PC burglars hasn't gotten around to it yet?

Or should we let the NPC population burgle the NPC population, and let the PCs do the same for each other?

By that logic, we should have NPC hunters to hunt the NPC animals, and players should be allowed to app scrabs and duskhorn.

P.S. That actually sounds like a lot of fun.

Quote from: Synthesis on January 02, 2009, 07:58:27 PM

By that logic, we should have NPC hunters to hunt the NPC animals, and players should be allowed to app scrabs and duskhorn.

That is what 9 karma is for.

Quote from: Vanth on January 02, 2009, 07:54:43 PM

Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on December 30, 2008, 07:15:32 PM
I think representing the NPC population in terms of housing, even if it -is- simple tenements, would make the burglar class a lot more viable and a lot less a thorn in the side of the PC population.

So to be fair, then, should we also create NPC burglars to rob your apartment if one of the PC burglars hasn't gotten around to it yet?

Or should we let the NPC population burgle the NPC population, and let the PCs do the same for each other?

Say 1 in 20 PCs is a burglar.

Say Allanak has 500,000 people. Applying the same ratio implies there are 25,000 operating burglars in Allanak.

A whole army must take to the streets at night. Does it sound reasonable?

say 1 in 10 PCs is an assassin. Let's assume to get good, an assassin needs to backstab 200 times. (Figure taken off the ceiling, holds none at all resemblence to ... anything real). Does it mean that Allanak is a graveyard because assassins killed everyone, trying to practice?


Stop operating figures that have no particular meaning or reasoning, or possibly even foundation.

Quote from: Dar on January 02, 2009, 10:59:59 PM
say 1 in 10 PCs is an assassin. Let's assume to get good, an assassin needs to backstab 200 times. (Figure taken off the ceiling, holds none at all resemblence to ... anything real). Does it mean that Allanak is a graveyard because assassins killed everyone, trying to practice?


Stop operating figures that have no particular meaning or reasoning, or possibly even foundation.

Vanth presented a reasoned argument based on PCs vs NPCs and I responded to it. So butt out, please?

To my understanding, we play the exceptions of Zalanthas, and not average Amos streetsweeper (Some people even play that, but that's besides the point), so comparing the PC and NPC and VNPC populations won't really lead anywhere. Not to say that there aren't any NPC or VNPC assassins and burglars, but again, besides the point.  ;)

Back to apartment security! ;D

/derail pls. :3

Quote from: Qzzrbl on January 02, 2009, 11:21:14 PM
To my understanding, we play the exceptions of Zalanthas, and not average Amos streetsweeper (Some people even play that, but that's besides the point), so comparing the PC and NPC and VNPC populations won't really lead anywhere. Not to say that there aren't any NPC or VNPC assassins and burglars, but again, besides the point.  ;)

Back to apartment security! ;D

/derail pls. :3

It's what I was getting at. If you assert that my example is ridiculous, then so too is Vanth's, because implicit to Vanth's assertion is that the ratio of PC burglars to the PC population and rentable apartments (absurdly high and the real problem here) is mirrored by the ratio of NPC burglars to NPC population and apartments and so reflects "reality" (namely every apartment or dwelling in the city being cleaned out lock, stock and barrel on a regular, even periodic, basis).

I think NPC residents and hired NPC guards will take care of the problem a great deal. Yes, you'll still get robbed, but if there are more targets, burglars will likely err to the side of ripping off the NPC more than the PC.

It won't solve the problem. It'll just help it.

The original "tenement" had only a few PC inhabitable, empty rooms, intended for Nenyuk to rent out.  The rest of the rooms had NPCs in them.  Including one room with an aggro NPC, at least as it was submitted.  The problem with it was that it wasn't dynamic enough.

With the apartment code, perhaps 1 or 2 rooms should be "rented out" to NPCs, that rotate which room it is they are renting.  So you don't know where they are.  NPC's could do fund and interesting things like:

-a militia or templar aide npc that auto crim flags anyone it sees entering "its" room.
-an afraid commoner that panics and flees
-a scripted NPC that goes to the doorman, loading up an NPC guard.  Guard progresses to the room, and at that point flags aggressive.  Script to unflag it and de-load.
-a hidden, backstabbing, not too interested in being disturbed NPC.
-an NPC couple in the throws of mudsex.  Just copy some PC's sessions for an emote script.
-a really rich NPC merchant with a really badass guard
-an NPC with a script to close and lock the door behind the intruder.  Then let the Cthulu-like nightmare begin.
-a scripted, wandering guard in the hallway.  Script would have it move and look into adjoining rooms.  If person in rentable room is not the renter or added to rent and if such a person is not in the room, move and attack said person.

How about wandering NPCs head home for the night/midday?

Quote from: Twilight on January 05, 2009, 05:57:32 PM
-a militia or templar aide npc that auto crim flags anyone it sees entering "its" room.
-an afraid commoner that panics and flees
-a scripted NPC that goes to the doorman, loading up an NPC guard.  Guard progresses to the room, and at that point flags aggressive.  Script to unflag it and de-load.
-a hidden, backstabbing, not too interested in being disturbed NPC.
-an NPC couple in the throws of mudsex.  Just copy some PC's sessions for an emote script.
-a really rich NPC merchant with a really badass guard
-an NPC with a script to close and lock the door behind the intruder.  Then let the Cthulu-like nightmare begin.
-a scripted, wandering guard in the hallway.  Script would have it move and look into adjoining rooms.  If person in rentable room is not the renter or added to rent and if such a person is not in the room, move and attack said person.

Wonderful idea.  Wonderful.

Quote from: Twilight on January 05, 2009, 05:57:32 PM
The original "tenement" had only a few PC inhabitable, empty rooms, intended for Nenyuk to rent out.  The rest of the rooms had NPCs in them.  Including one room with an aggro NPC, at least as it was submitted.  The problem with it was that it wasn't dynamic enough.

With the apartment code, perhaps 1 or 2 rooms should be "rented out" to NPCs, that rotate which room it is they are renting.  So you don't know where they are.  NPC's could do fund and interesting things like:

-a militia or templar aide npc that auto crim flags anyone it sees entering "its" room.
-an afraid commoner that panics and flees
-a scripted NPC that goes to the doorman, loading up an NPC guard.  Guard progresses to the room, and at that point flags aggressive.  Script to unflag it and de-load.
-a hidden, backstabbing, not too interested in being disturbed NPC.
-an NPC couple in the throws of mudsex.  Just copy some PC's sessions for an emote script.
-a really rich NPC merchant with a really badass guard
-an NPC with a script to close and lock the door behind the intruder.  Then let the Cthulu-like nightmare begin.
-a scripted, wandering guard in the hallway.  Script would have it move and look into adjoining rooms.  If person in rentable room is not the renter or added to rent and if such a person is not in the room, move and attack said person.

Excellent ideas (so long as care is taken not to make burglary impossible).

Quote from: Thunkkin on December 28, 2008, 09:45:23 PM

Quote from: Salt Merchant on December 28, 2008, 09:42:34 PM
EDIT: also, what happens to shared living space? You go home and bar the door and your wife suddenly can't get in?

This is trickier. 

Maybe have two apartment types.

Room 1) A small crappy room with a crappy lock
Room 2) A small crappy room with a big bar for the door

If you want to get snuggly with a roommate, rent room #1.  If you want your own room that, while you are sleeping, you can bar the door, rent room #2.

Some of the bigger apartments have two rooms.  In those places you could get the best of both worlds by having a regular lock on the front door, and a bar on the inner chamber door.  That way you have some security, but if you collect a tonne of junk, you are going to have to store some of it in the less secure outer room. 


Another option is apartments that have more than one exit.  Like if your room has a regular front door, and then a ladder and trap door that leads up to the roof (flat roof space is a valuable open air sitting/sleeping area durring hot, clear weather), and a window with a latching shutter.

• The front door locks and can be barred.  It is big enough for any PC to walk through (including half-giants or cendi, as the case may be).  You can easily maneuver through it while dragging or carrying a chest or any other large but movable furniture.  There should be a small but significant chance of "the neighbours" noticing you picking the lock, and notifying the crime code.
  
  
  
• The trap door to the roof has a lock, but not a bar.  (Or possibly a bar but not a lock, if  there is some coded way for bars to be foiled.  Or perhaps just a lower quality lock than the main entrance.  In any event, it is less secure than the front door.)  It is possible to get through the roof from other roofs or from the ground using some sort of acrobatic skills like climbing and jumping.  Due to the fact that it is only intended to provide basic roof access and is reached via ladder,  it is not big to push large items through, nor is it large enough for half-giants, cendi, or anyone who is heavily encumbered.  Since there is little or no legitimate through traffic on roofs, the chance of a "bystander" alerting the authorities (crime code) is quite low.
  
  
  
• The shutters on the window latch or have a crappy lock.  A latch would be better, because installing a key lock on the outside of your window shutters is asinine.  A latch could work almost exactly like a lock, it is mainly a cosmetic difference.  With appropriate tools (for example a slender lever, or some sort of small hook attached to a thin, strong line, or perhaps even regular picks) and skills, the latch can be finessed from the outside.  Anyway, there is some possibility of getting the shutters open from the outside.  Getting to the window requires a climb (either up from the ground or down from the roof, depending on terrain) because even first floor windows tend to be placed high on the wall in hot climates to encourage heat loss.  Desert windows also tend quite small, either short or narrow, to minimize the amount of dust and heat that enters through them, so you have to be on the small side to wriggle through them, perhaps not more than 7 stone in weight.  You also can not be more than moderately encumbered.  The lock on the shutters isn't that tough, but hanging off a wall fiddling with the shutters from the outside is an innately suspicious activity, so if anyone notices you it will be obvious that you are up to no good.  The chance of activating the crime code here is fairly high, and increases the more time you spend on the wall.
  
  
  
• For bonus points, have the room unlit.  It will be lit by ambient light from the hallway if the hall door is open.  It will be lit by sunlight if the trapdoor or shutters are open, but only during the day.  Other than that, if you want a light in the room you need to provide a candle or lantern that you pay for yourself (there could be a built in lantern, but it will run out of oil and need to be refilled at your own cost like a normal lantern).  This will encourage cheapskates to open their shutters once in a while, and will provide a minor financial drain for people who are living the high life and want too keep their rooms brightly lit all day and all night.  It would also increase realism, and give PCs who enjoy decorating their rooms with candles and lanterns a reason to do so.   :) 

(http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p104/AngelaChristine_2006/mudroof.jpg)
(http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p104/AngelaChristine_2006/rooftop.jpg)(http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p104/AngelaChristine_2006/roofkuala.jpg)



A barred door shouldn't be impenetrable though.  At the very least a strong person should be able to Bash it off its hinges.  The average door simply is not built to withstand a battering ram or a determined half-giant.  Smashing a door down should be very noisy, and have a very high chance of alerting law enforcement.  Some people have no finesse, and simply go for the smash and grab.  Making doors smashable would also ensure that the local law enforcement officials can break into a room in an emergency, without needing staff assistance.  Smashing a door breaks the door, the lock, or both, and it will not function properly until it is repaired.

Quote from: Thunkkin on December 28, 2008, 09:45:23 PM

If you want to get snuggly with a roommate, rent room #1.

He he, apartments have special rooms for that sort of occasion. Rent it for varied number of days for varied amount of coins.

Quote from: helpfilesSkill Pick                                                        (General)

   This skill will allow your character to unlock objects or doors that are
locked (if successful). Passersby don't always appreciate folks picking the
locks on doors, so this skill ought to be used with caution.
   Very skilled individuals can even relock doors and objects with this
skill.

Syntax:
   pick object
   pick object relock
   pick exitname
   pick exitname direction
   pick exitname relock
   pick exitname direction relock


Examples:
   > pick chest

   > pick door

   > pick door north

   > pick chest relock

Notes:
   Some type of lock picking device is required, and must be equipped.

   Doors have difficulty levels based on the complexity of the lock. If
your character's skill isn't high enough, the message should be quite
explicit.

Delay: before

See also:
   lock, unlock

As a courtesy, please?

I don't know what you people are talking about... but my last two characters kept all their money in their apartment instead of using the bank and I was never robbed.  I must be lucky. :D

Oh, and Salt Merchant, your example IS comparing apples to oranges.  Do you go around assassinating VNPCs?  How about pickpocketing them?  How about hunting them?  How about protecting someone with your Bynner buddies from them when on the way to Luir's?  No.  VNPCs are environment.  You interact with them through emotes only, not in coded ways.  So go ahead and emote at VNPC burglars and VNPC housing, but you'll have to have PC apartments and PC burglars interact with each other.  And before you say something about NPC instead of VNPC, sure, go ahead and make NPC housing... but if you do that, we'll also need NPC burglars.  You can't pick which part of a concept to include or deny.

Them's my two cents.

i agree that ICly there should be ways to throw enough sid at the problem to make it go away for all but the most epic of burglars.

i.e. the good suggestions of renting by yourself so you can bar the door, or npc guards, or whatever.

But to me the most frustrating thing about this is the play time issue. It's like trying to assassinate someone's char. You can't exactly PM their player for ideal play times.

maybe each apartment should have an OOC sign that the player can set with his playtimes. And any burglars caught stealing outside that timespan would get a tally mark on their account. Enough tallymarks and you lose karma.

heh. maybe even a similar solution for assassination.

Um, I wasn't whining about being robbed.  I was upset that they left the damn door open.

Quote from: Ampere on March 03, 2009, 02:19:58 PM
Um, I wasn't whining about being robbed.  I was upset that they left the damn door open.

oh maybe they were just a noob burglar. It only makes sense to close and lock it back in the hope that the person won't even notice they were robbed, and submit a request for item replacement. :D

Quote from: Agent_137 on March 03, 2009, 01:55:25 PM
maybe each apartment should have an OOC sign that the player can set with his playtimes. And any burglars caught stealing outside that timespan would get a tally mark on their account. Enough tallymarks and you lose karma.

Imagine a circle of apartment buildings -- arranged like a clock as each building has a time frame in which it is vulnerable. The player chooses the building closest to his own play time, increasing the likelihood that he or a neighbor will be on hand to potentially foil any burglary attempts.

Embarrassingly enough, I don't know whether or not pick breaks hide/sneak. It should.  Additionally, it should be exceptionally difficult to hide in certain enclosed spaces, with hefty bonuses granted to anyone scanning that area. (cramped corridors, small apartments, small backrooms in bars, small offices and other meeting chambers.)