Apartments and safety

[Salt Merchant]

staff should have killed all sources of common PC income. Work for water and, maybe, some food.

We're playing ArmageddonMud, not CaveMud.

Look at pretty much any civilization in history the size of Allanak or Tuluk and you'll find they had a system of coinage and it was the main medium of exchange.

[Doppelganger]

That's not really fair. Classes exist for a reason; warriors fight, rangers range, pickpockets steal, and assassins... well, okay...

While Armageddon's beauty lies in the flexible array of character concepts and stories, it doesn't change the fact that the class you choose decides what your character is good at, and players shouldn't be made to feel inferior because they play to those strengths.

Guys, if you want a class that's better than burglars, do propose it. If lockpick is an instrument of evil, remove it.
If you can't play the class, that's understood, just move along and leave it to those who can.

Look at pretty much any civilization in history the size of Allanak or Tuluk and you'll find they had a system of coinage and it was the main medium of exchange.

Money should exist, but I do not see where your average peasant fits the history of civilization. The castes that should have money also have means to stash and protect their wealth. If you don't have means, you should have relieved of the money as well, one way or another.

Hell knows what else you godless commies would come up with once you get a locked chests. Democracy? Health care? Human rights?

[Jingo]

Care to tone it down a bit? I don't want to be singed by the coming flames.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I think representing the NPC population in terms of housing, even if it -is- simple tenements, would make the burglar class a lot more viable and a lot less a thorn in the side of the PC population.

Also, making both the burglar -and- merchant guilds unviable does nothing to help, Doppelganger. Unless you want to make playing a mundane give even less variety in guild choices. I mean, god forbid I should have a place to securely (or even semi-securely) stash the things my merchant makes. Or that a burglar be able to make a living off the NPC and VNPC populations in large part. You know, because the 70 or so players in the 90 or so apartments must make up the majority of the world and so forth.

[Doppelganger]

Also, making both the burglar -and- merchant guilds unviable does nothing to help, Doppelganger.

Both guilds existed long before apartments.

[Salt Merchant]

Money should exist, but I do not see where your average peasant fits the history of civilization.

A peasant was an agricultural worker that subsisted on a small plot of land. Commoners inside the city of Allanak are not peasants. From what I can tell, they're mostly skilled tradespersons and retail merchants and live in a more sophisticated environment than small land holders did. To top it off, PCs tend to be exceptional commoners.

[Olgaris]

I shouldn't tell you this, but I'm working on a new krathi spell that should be in game soon.

It's going to be called "Meld Obsidian."

Unfortunately it will only be useful once, because the instant that it is cast all the obsidian coins in the world will meld together. This large hunk of melded obsidian created will be completely worthless everywhere in the world. The Templarate in the south would be willing to pay a million coins for it... but they won't have any coins. Kind of like a catch 22. This is part of the End of the World plot. Sorry for the spoiler.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Also, making both the burglar -and- merchant guilds unviable does nothing to help, Doppelganger.

Both guilds existed long before apartments.

That's not entirely what I meant. What are you going to trade? For what? That's what I meant.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

I read this halfway through page 3, so if someone else mentioned this then I guess I'm just repeating them, sorry!

In regards to door barring and roommates. One room apartment = one door = one bar. Two room apartments = two rooms = two bars... You get the idea. If you're sharing one room and are constantly barred out, bitch at the person barring (or try to arrange that you room with someone sharing similar playtimes so it doesn't happen often). If you have a bigger place where you can have your own room, bar your own door and leave the front door open. True, a burglar could still pick it and get the goodies in the livingroom, but they might not make off with all your clothing/personals.

[Zoltan]

I think that with things the way they're coded in the game now, making it possible to bar most (if not all) apartment doors would be a real kick in the nuts to people that play the Burglar class responsibly. The idea of making common apartments these impenetrable fortresses of solitude just irks me. I mean, I myself have suffered a burglar or two that's stolen absolutely every item and bit of furniture in my PC's apartment, so I know it can suck. But I know what it's like trying to make a living with a burglar PC, one who's isolated by both playtimes and IC necessity. If I had to wait for people to be logged in so I could do my thing, my last (and favorite, besides current) character would have been completely unplayable. And I don't mean just because he wouldn't be making coin.

Believe it or not, there's a lot of character development that can take place during these "solo raids". One of my fondest memories with that PC was when he went southside to "work" and found himself in an apartment that clearly housed a family. Now, I was doing a lot of short and off-peak playtimes back then (almost a year ago, now). Yeah, there was probably little risk of someone logging in on him or otherwise getting into the apartment. But moments like that were some of my favorite and most fulfilling in Arm, period. You know, piecing together other people's lives by looking over their belongings, ruminating on the life and possible family he was letting slip through his fingers even as he was robbing -that- family of their valuables, food and water. It was awesome, and fun as hell. He would've been a very, very boring character to me if those rooms would have been effectively cut out of the game by an insurmountable bar on the door.

I like to think I played that character well. By the time of his death, he was a really sneaky bastard, and he seemed to be getting quite skilled with the lock pick. I burglarized the -shit- out of the Commoners' Quarter. But I made an effort to show restraint, and to not twink out. I -never- stole a big piece of furniture. It was always just loose coin, small valuable items, cures and (occasionally) food items. And I -know- I'm not the only player to have shown this kind of restraint.

I think making apartments completely safe (or rather, much more safe than they already are) from mundane burglars because of code abuse by another player or two is almost a punishment for those that enjoy the class, and play it responsibly. So, big thumbs down from me on barring a room until code is implemented to let me break that fucking door down.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I would like to see something else then, possibly a random chance to be crimflagged if you've broken into an apartment where someone has quit out and not left it. If it is only a chance, that always allows for the possibility of them being gone. But also allows for the possibility of you busting in on their virtual selves. Or their virtual selves unlocking the room, looking in and seeing you, and then running like hell while waying the nearest soldier about it.

[Zoltan]

The random crimflagging thing doesn't seem so bad. The only thing is that it -sucks- to have every soldier in the citystate on your ass. The randomness of this kind of thing would almost make advance planning (besides an escape route) moot, because even your best laid plans and sneakiness don't matter in the face of a random dice roll.

[Thunkkin]

The flip side of the coin is that many players, myself included, are not going to provide you with those interesting homes to look through until the situation changes.  Or at least, the perception of the situation needs to change.  I've never rented an apartment because it never appealed to me to carefully work on collecting and decorating (an activity I would normally love and be obsessed with) when everything is going to disappear randomly.  My characters, for very reasonable IC reasons, feel the same way.  If getting robbed meant a few of my valuables - even my most valuable valuables - vanished, I'd rent an apartment.  But the knowledge that my rug, crappy vase, etc. is going to vanish ... yeah, no thanks.  I'm not going to waste my OOC and IC time and money on that.

[staggerlee]

I think perhaps the issue is somewhat blown out of proportion. I held an apartment in Nak for a few rl months with plenty of decoration, personal effects and what not.  There were a couple times I found the door unlocked, but never had what I'd call a problem.

Which isn't to say that others haven't had issues, but just that the gloom and doom is getting a little carried away.

[Halcyon]

I think perhaps the issue is somewhat blown out of proportion. I held an apartment in Nak for a few rl months with plenty of decoration, personal effects and what not.  There were a couple times I found the door unlocked, but never had what I'd call a problem.

Which isn't to say that others haven't had issues, but just that the gloom and doom is getting a little carried away.

In other places, burglar is a real-world-time weekly occurrence. 

[tortall]

I think the BIGGEST problem is the people who take everything, as many people have said.


Because this has become such a problem, maybe make burglar a karma class? Or make it a class that is ALWAYS watched, to make sure they're not twinking out?

[Olgaris]

I think it's pretty rare that burglars actually take everything from an apartment. This thread really seems to blow everything out of proportion. We are watching. Always. Like Big Brother only scarier because we don't only ruin one life, but every subsequent one attached to an account. If you think you've been the victim of twinkish burglarizing, send in a player complaint through the request tool.

We are contemplating a small change to the way that apartments work that will cut down on one aspect of twinkishness. And it isn't my "meld obsidian" spell. Overall, however, apartments provide the amount of security that they are supposed to.

[Chettaman]

I think the BIGGEST problem is the people who take everything, as many people have said.

:nods
True enough. I suppose I wouldn't get as pissed off if they hadn't literally stolen everything. Even a nice little cock-roach I tucked in a corner for decoration...

[Iota]

If it were a crime to get caught leaving an apartment complex you didn't rent out of, carrying heavy stuff like tables out would make it easier for you to get caught just because of the normal stealth penalties from encumbrance.
Legit guests of renters (people visibly following an entering or exiting renter) would get a temporary "leaving is okay" flag, removed upon leaving with or without the renter.

[Mr.B]

Here is B's opinion on Apartments and Safety.

You'd think that since apartments came into being that we'd be happy enough to have the barrier of a door.. with a LOCK on it. Maybe I'm just old skool, but it seems to me that the newer batch of players shure luv their safety and privacy, and the safety of gear whether on one's person or in the place they keep their STUFF (Carlin RIP) is paramount. I've noticed over a long time of playing, that nothing pisses players off more then losing their STUFF. Even before apartments were widely available so that any 0-day rinther could walk into Allanak and purchase the apartment of their last character (to keep all their STUFF), it was pickpockets who needed to get nerfed and/or removed. I remember, cuz I was there.

So in my not so humble opinion, Burglars are needed to absolutely destroy and despoil that sense of security and what is "yours". It's what Burglars do. Since the apartments came into being for any person to come along and gather a mountain of STUFF, independant characters have increased in number, mudsexxx skills have increased, and tavern backroom rentals have plummeted, but weep not for the barkeeps, because it made every Burglar Class character smile. Sure, additional security measures for your 900 sid living space with multiple rooms, working fountain and mirror-paneled fur bed would be great, but then your probably a noble, and have full-time guards at your beck and call. If you are actually just some commoner filth, let the Templarate do their job.. if they feel like it. Bribe soldiers, be resourceful. Buglars nowadays are useful, have alot of opportunity to do what they do, and an equal amount of peril should they be discovered. Commoners and Uppity sorts that don't pay hand-over-fist in some way have a chance to lose their precious stuff.

On another note:
If burglars are being too ridiculous in robbing beds and other cumbersome furniture, then get involved and notify the imms to it and see if it wasn't an episode of abuse. Someone must have seen the dood who robbed your shag-carpeted bed.. or did they? We must remind ourselves that we don't know the whole story, so we can't know if a great heist was pulled on our STUFF.

So to you burglars out there, I think you're doing a great service in ripping people off, and any elf would be proud of you. Go on with your bad selves.

And to you non-burglars out there.. you know what must be done. To elves. AND burglars.

[My 2 sids]

It seems to me that under the current system once a lock is picked anyone and multiple people can simply walk in and help themselves.  I mean, it could be the burglar was role-playing well (only taking a few items) but then an opened, unlocked door invited other PCs to walk in and slowly the room got picked clean.  By the time you log in, everything is gone and there is that player feeling of WTF?

Maybe a picked lock can have a timer on it so it relocks?  (Say the landlord noticed and had it replaced)   That way if one burglar is picking the place clean the IMMs can hopefully trace it to one twinking player and deal with the situation.

[Dar]

It seems to me that under the current system once a lock is picked anyone and multiple people can simply walk in and help themselves.  I mean, it could be the burglar was role-playing well (only taking a few items) but then an opened, unlocked door invited other PCs to walk in and slowly the room got picked clean.  By the time you log in, everything is gone and there is that player feeling of WTF?

Maybe a picked lock can have a timer on it so it relocks?  (Say the landlord noticed and had it replaced)   That way if one burglar is picking the place clean the IMMs can hopefully trace it to one twinking player and deal with the situation.

Every responsible burglar locks the door behind them. That gives it a chance for the owner to not 'notice' the theft, and choose against camping at the apartment, hoping for burglar's return/or similar precautions. And ofcourse it prevents other freeloaders from stealing the stuff the burglar wants to pick up next week.

[Medena]

Every responsible burglar locks the door behind them. That gives it a chance for the owner to not 'notice' the theft, and choose against camping at the apartment, hoping for burglar's return/or similar precautions. And ofcourse it prevents other freeloaders from stealing the stuff the burglar wants to pick up next week.

Is this a new thing? You didn't used to be able to re-lock doors with a lockpick.  If so, it's very cool.

[Gunnerblaster]

I also think that the guard man should walk up and down the halls every IG day to lock all the doors. What I've noticed is that although a burglar will break in and steal things, it's your neighbors who rip it bone dry.

I still think this one solution would be enough. Posted in the first page of this thread.

Yeah, you can still get broken into and your neighbors still have a chance to pick you clean but atleast there is some assurance that your apartment won't stay unlocked for an in-game week before you log back in.

All these other ideas of "barring" your room or getting personal guards is retarded. Your going to bar yourself into your room? What are you? Twelve years old or something? This is Armageddon. Dangerous shit could be anywhere. Even the confines of our little "bar-safe" apartment. Hell, I feel more safe in the open then I do in enclosed areas.

[brytta.leofa]

Even the confines of our little "bar-safe" apartment. Hell, I feel more safe in the open then I do in enclosed areas.

There's something unspeakably creepy about a quiet clan compound with none of your mates logged on.