... I believe that we should lose our LISTEN status.
... I believe we should lose our SCAN status.
... I believe we should lose our GUARD status.
... I believe we should lose our WATCH status.
... I believe we should lose our CONTACT status.
... I believe we should lose our BARRIER status.
... I believe we should lose everything and concentrate on fighting.
... I believe we should be forced to WATCH our primary fighting target
... ... I believe if we FLEE, we lose our newly-set WATCH status.
Wouldn't that be awesome, and more in-line with certain events?
This make sense to me...
Yes it'd be awesome.
Sounds good. I was a little hazy on the losing guard status thing but ... you know ... if you're trying to guard a merchant, and someone attacks you instead, then another person rushes out from the flank and attacks the merchant while you're busy ... yeah, makes sense, although of course ideally I'd like some kind of skill check to place a coded difference between a 105+ day PC and a new one.
Replace "During combat" with "Upon being hit."
Screeching a blood-curdling war-cry, the chubby, tousle-haired infant attacks you!
Quote from: brytta.leofa on October 24, 2008, 02:06:41 PM
Replace "During combat" with "Upon being hit."
Screeching, the spindly, tousle-haired child attacks you!
Well. Perhaps.
You could be focusing more on NOT BEING HIT than pushing the child away.
Does the first hit of combat nearly always succeed?
Quote from: mansa on October 24, 2008, 02:08:37 PM
Does the first hit of combat nearly always succeed?
Totally depends on the skill of the parties involved.
Revised upon reflection: your chance of losing these should depend on
(1) how close your attack came to hitting you, and
(2) the damage potential of the strike.
It should not be an all or nothing off/on situation, but based on skill rolls and chance.
Quote from: a strange shadow on October 24, 2008, 03:13:25 PM
It should not be an all or nothing off/on situation, but based on skill rolls and chance.
Quote from: mansa on October 24, 2008, 01:42:51 PM
... I believe that we should lose our LISTEN status.
... I believe we should lose our SCAN status.
... I believe we should lose our GUARD status.
... I believe we should lose our CONTACT status.
... I believe we should lose our BARRIER status.
Done
Quote from: mansa on October 24, 2008, 01:42:51 PM
... I believe we should lose our WATCH status.
This already happens (or should) unless it's the person you're fighting
Quote from: mansa on October 24, 2008, 01:42:51 PM
... I believe we should lose everything and concentrate on fighting.
Not sure what you mean by this.
Quote from: mansa on October 24, 2008, 01:42:51 PM
... I believe we should be forced to WATCH our primary fighting target
... ... I believe if we FLEE, we lose our newly-set WATCH status.
I don't believe it should force you to watch them, you can if you want. Hence I won't do the sub-bullet either.
Quote from: mansa on October 24, 2008, 01:42:51 PM
Wouldn't that be awesome, and more in-line with certain events?
I do think these ideas have merit, so as stated above, the ones marked done will happen with our next reboot.
In addition to these, we have talked over some other ideas and made the following other changes:
If you are under the affect of a magical sleep, you will wake up and be able to fight, however you will have a penalty to your maximum stun applied.
If you are under the affect of a paralysis affect (mundane or magical) you will have a chance to break out of it, but you will be slowed down based on the original affect.
An overall reduction in the duration on both sleep and paralyze affects.
A full post of these changes is forthcoming.
Moar-jeans:
Some people have it set up in their mud client so that you will automatically watch someone you are fighting. I'd like to be able to do that, but I use GMUD as my client and I don't have any macros / aliases / triggers.
I think it would be cool if there was a coded way to watch whoever I'm fighting automatically, or, in the very least, have it toggleable for people who don't want to autowatch someone they are fighting.
Also, as per the waking up. I'm glad that you wake up with less stun than normal. It's very smart, and letting the STUN status come into affect with other things. Well done.
(http://www.worth1000.com/entries/3500/3713_w.jpg)
Quote from: mansa on October 24, 2008, 03:47:13 PM
Some people have it set up in their mud client so that you will automatically watch someone you are fighting. I'd like to be able to do that, but I use GMUD as my client and I don't have any macros / aliases / triggers.
I think it would be cool if there was a coded way to watch whoever I'm fighting automatically, or, in the very least, have it toggleable for people who don't want to autowatch someone they are fighting.
This seems like a reasonable request, I'll consider it if I have time.
Are we sure guarding should be a part of this? My understanding is that while actually fighting, a guard doesn't intercept any more attacks against their charge. Afterwards, though, I think they should return to vigilance. Particularly for NPC guards.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on October 24, 2008, 03:59:25 PM
Are we sure guarding should be a part of this? My understanding is that while actually fighting, a guard doesn't intercept any more attacks against their charge. Afterwards, though, I think they should return to vigilance. Particularly for NPC guards.
I suppose that's fair, pulling back the guard change.
Please take a look at shortening listen/scan delay and consider making them toggled status with no delay, e.g, "You are now trying to listen" "You are now scanning the area for threats" with the appropriate code checks each time there is a chance.
Otherwise that particular change is rather ... unpalatable. No, extremely unpalatable.
It has a serious effect on the efficiency of those classes who rely on their senses to survive combat encounters.
Quote from: a strange shadow on October 24, 2008, 04:05:41 PM
Please take a look at shortening listen/scan delay and consider making them toggled status with no delay, e.g, "You are now trying to listen" "You are now scanning the area for threats" with the appropriate code checks each time there is a chance.
Otherwise that particular change is rather ... unpalatable. No, extremely unpalatable.
It has a serious effect on the efficiency of those classes who rely on their senses to survive combat encounters.
I'll look at it.
Perhaps listen and scan could be suppressed while fighting but will resume once combat ends?
Quote from: Marauder Moe on October 24, 2008, 04:11:05 PM
Perhaps listen and scan could be suppressed while fighting but will resume once combat ends?
I feel like you should have to recenter yourself and scan/listen again after a fight, so I'm leaving that as is. However the annoyance of the 'status' of scan/listen being delayed is something that probably should be fixed.
Guarding is not a skill that should cease with fighting. As far as I know, you have a chance to still intercept attacks against your charge even while you are fighting. I hope this is left as is, because guarding is not just a passive talent, it is also an active talent.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on October 24, 2008, 04:16:47 PM
Guarding is not a skill that should cease with fighting. As far as I know, you have a chance to still intercept attacks against your charge even while you are fighting. I hope this is left as is, because guarding is not just a passive talent, it is also an active talent.
As I noted later, guard was changed back to the way it was. Which is not as you expect. You can not intercept an attack from someone if you are actively fighting.
Hmmm. Well, if you can't you should be able to. It should be penalized per opponent you have, but you should be able to try.
In any case, that's fine.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on October 24, 2008, 04:16:47 PM
Guarding is not a skill that should cease with fighting. As far as I know, you have a chance to still intercept attacks against your charge even while you are fighting. I hope this is left as is, because guarding is not just a passive talent, it is also an active talent.
Rescue?
Quote from: Morgenes on October 24, 2008, 03:42:10 PM
If you are under the affect of a magical sleep, you will wake up and be able to fight, however you will have a penalty to your maximum stun applied.
If you are under the affect of a paralysis affect (mundane or magical) you will have a chance to break out of it, but you will be slowed down based on the original affect.
OMG fucking thank you!
It has long irked me that getting put to sleep is an auto-death sentence. At least now there's a chance that having a spear shoved through my gut will make me wake up.
Quote from: fourTwenty on October 24, 2008, 04:23:34 PM
Quote from: Morgenes on October 24, 2008, 03:42:10 PM
If you are under the affect of a magical sleep, you will wake up and be able to fight, however you will have a penalty to your maximum stun applied.
If you are under the affect of a paralysis affect (mundane or magical) you will have a chance to break out of it, but you will be slowed down based on the original affect.
OMG fucking thank you!
It has long irked me that getting put to sleep is an auto-death sentence. At least now there's a chance that having a spear shoved through my gut will make me wake up.
I think this more accurately shows the difference between sleep and paralysis. With sleep, I think it makes perfect sense that getting hit should wake you up; with paralysis, it's only a
chance that you'll snap out. As much as I like magickers being powerful (for atmosphere and to foster real fear of magick), I will admit that there is absolutely
nothing fun about being forced to sit there completely defenseless, unable to even emote, as you're killed.
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on October 24, 2008, 04:25:23 PMAs much as I like magickers being powerful (for atmosphere and to foster real fear of magick), I will admit that there is absolutely nothing fun about being forced to sit there completely defenseless, unable to even emote, as you're killed.
I agree completely.
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on October 24, 2008, 04:25:23 PM
I will admit that there is absolutely nothing fun about being forced to sit there completely defenseless, unable to even emote, as you're killed.
The look command is your answer!
look gicker (with big pleading helpless-eyes)
look (as if trying to sear the memory of this place into her mind)
(Hey, it's better than not being able to emote at all.)
Quote from: Gimfalisette on October 24, 2008, 04:29:22 PM
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on October 24, 2008, 04:25:23 PM
I will admit that there is absolutely nothing fun about being forced to sit there completely defenseless, unable to even emote, as you're killed.
The look command is your answer!
look gicker (with big pleading helpless-eyes)
look (as if trying to sear the memory of this place into her mind)
(Hey, it's better than not being able to emote at all.)
I've actually got a rather humorous story involving this sort of look-emoting that'll have to wait another six months or so to be told.
Some comments:
"listen on" should return zero delay, if you are already listening. Currently, it returns a delay, whether you are listening or not. If I -want- to listen (which is usually the only time I use the listen command in any way shape or form) then I don't want to check the status, and I don't want my listen to shut off, just because I typed "listen." So I -only- use "listen on," unless I am actively attempting to turn it off. Delay sucks when it's already running.
About paralysis and combat - now that the psionic skills no longer work when you are in combat with someone...well if you are paralyzed, you're obviously not fighting back. You're not capable of doing -anything- other than watching your opponent kill you. The only thing you -have- is your mind, which - since you aren't capable of doing anything else, you should be very free to focus on. Could the psionic skills that non-psionicists have on their skills list, remain useable, IF you are paralyzed, for these reasons?
I would just like to say that, to any of the imms reading this, including The Codemaster of Badass (Morgenes... duh) that I am -incredibly- impressed at the speed and response of the changes. I'm sure there will end up being tweaks to what has been done, but the effect on the world, and on the player base, is massive.
Can I send like, a giant staff kudos? If I have to I will use the Player Request Tool and get banned for sending so damn many. =)
Over all things are looking better.
Quote from: Riev on October 24, 2008, 05:25:07 PM
Can I send like, a giant staff kudos? If I have to I will use the Player Request Tool and get banned for sending so damn many. =)
Send one staff kudos that just lists a bunch of staff on it and why you looooooooooooove them. That's what I do.
Quote from: mansa on October 24, 2008, 04:21:23 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on October 24, 2008, 04:16:47 PM
Guarding is not a skill that should cease with fighting. As far as I know, you have a chance to still intercept attacks against your charge even while you are fighting. I hope this is left as is, because guarding is not just a passive talent, it is also an active talent.
Rescue?
Not the same thing. That is trying to save your charge after you have failed guarding them. I think that you should have a chance to see and intercept more than one attacker, taking penalties for each foe that you currently face.
Quote from: Morgenes on October 24, 2008, 03:42:10 PM
If you are under the affect of a magical sleep, you will wake up and be able to fight, however you will have a penalty to your maximum stun applied.
If you are under the affect of a paralysis affect (mundane or magical) you will have a chance to break out of it, but you will be slowed down based on the original affect.
What about poisons that do the same two things? Should they not be in line with magicks, or weaker, since magick is magick? Or are we going to progressively make magick less scary as we prepare for Arma 2?
Quote from: Agent_137 on October 25, 2008, 12:58:15 PM
Quote from: Morgenes on October 24, 2008, 03:42:10 PM
If you are under the affect of a magical sleep, you will wake up and be able to fight, however you will have a penalty to your maximum stun applied.
If you are under the affect of a paralysis affect (mundane or magical) you will have a chance to break out of it, but you will be slowed down based on the original affect.
What about poisons that do the same two things? Should they not be in line with magicks, or weaker, since magick is magick? Or are we going to progressively make magick less scary as we prepare for Arma 2?
I think they are. I edited for clarity
Quote from: Agent_137 on October 25, 2008, 12:58:15 PM
Quote from: Morgenes on October 24, 2008, 03:42:10 PM
If you are under the affect of a magical sleep, you will wake up and be able to fight, however you will have a penalty to your maximum stun applied.
If you are under the affect of a paralysis affect (mundane or magical) you will have a chance to break out of it, but you will be slowed down based on the original affect.
What about poisons that do the same two things? Should they not be in line with magicks, or weaker, since magick is magick? Or are we going to progressively make magick less scary as we prepare for Arma 2?
I believe:
Quote from: Morgenes on October 24, 2008, 03:42:10 PM
If you are under the affect of a magical sleep, you will wake up and be able to fight, however you will have a penalty to your maximum stun applied.
If you are under the affect of a paralysis affect (mundane or magical) you will have a chance to break out of it, but you will be slowed down based on the original affect.
Though I can't account for nonmagical sleep, I believe voluntary sleeping, and sleeping from being knocked unconscious, already return to wakefulness upon being attacked.
Quote from: Tisiphone on October 25, 2008, 01:34:29 PM
Though I can't account for nonmagical sleep, I believe voluntary sleeping, and sleeping from being knocked unconscious, already return to wakefulness upon being attacked.
I'd say find out IC, but that's rather sadistic. You will not wake from being attacked while you are knocked unconscious due to a drop in stun points. If you had typed 'sleep', you will wake up. This change makes the sleep spell work like non-magical sleep when it comes to being attacked while sleeping.
I'm impressed with this line of changes.
Quote from: Sephiroto on October 25, 2008, 04:21:20 PM
I'm impressed with this line of changes.
It's Morgenes at work - that's kind of a given. ;) Seriously, though, the responsiveness of this thread has been scary-fast.
Quote from: mansa on October 25, 2008, 01:33:57 PM
I think they are. I edited for clarity
yea, woops. lol reading.
GO MORGENES GO!
Seriously, good stuff!
Wow that was fast. Impressive.
Quote from: mansa on October 24, 2008, 01:42:51 PM
... I believe that we should lose our LISTEN status.
... I believe we should lose our SCAN status.
For certain reasons, I do not believe that these two things should be broken when in combat.
Since when do you completely STOP listening or paying attention to your surroundings in the real world? Do you all of a sudden become deaf and vision becomes limited/impared when engaged in a battle? Constantly, you are precieving the world around you, even if you are sitting at your computer reading this argument that may or may not have an impact on the game. Some people may have stronger abilities of perception than others, but you do not lose all of them when you are in a fight.
Not only that, theres a couple of guilds that rely on these skills during combat.
Quote
Ranger
A ranger possesses two primary abilities: to know where she is at all times and to stalk and kill prey (to feed herself). Because of the emphasis on these two things, rangers are sometimes greatly sought after as companions in the desert--halfling rangers are even a vital part of halfling culture, serving as guides and advisors.
Ranger skills involve hunting persons or animals, exceptional powers of observation, a strong aptitude for archery, and some moderate skill with weapons. Exceptional rangers are able to move silently and remain unseen in the wilderness, detect sounds from far away, work with poisons, and parry enemy blows. Rangers are also able to rescue friends from deadly situations, bandage serious wounds, and have a well-known rapport with animals and can ride beasts of burden from the beginning. While apparently an astonishing array of abilities, rangers are far poorer at combat than warriors, and their skills with poisons and healing powers are actually quite modest.
Rangers are usually the second easiest persons to employ, next to warriors. Any traveler would be a fool to neglect to take a ranger along as a guide, and good rangers can make large sums of money in this profession. In addition, rangers are excellent scouts and spies, able to eavesdrop without being noticed--good rangers can even act as assas- sins. If nothing else, rangers are superior hunters and can typically feed themselves in such places as the Grey Forest (q.v.), and can bring back skins of animals to sell.
Oh? My scan and listen should break after I fire a warning shot at something lurking in the bushes? I think not.
-------
Quote from: mansa on October 24, 2008, 01:42:51 PM
... I believe we should be forced to WATCH our primary fighting target
Bad idea. There are plenty instances where you will encounter more than one opponent.
Quote from: Yokunama on October 28, 2008, 08:35:15 PM
Oh? My scan and listen should break after I fire a warning shot at something lurking in the bushes? I think not.
Note that this is not the way the code is written. It will drop when you enter melee combat.
Quote from: Morgenes on October 28, 2008, 08:42:47 PM
Quote from: Yokunama on October 28, 2008, 08:35:15 PM
Oh? My scan and listen should break after I fire a warning shot at something lurking in the bushes? I think not.
Note that this is not the way the code is written. It will drop when you enter melee combat.
Thats good to know, but I know that a couple of guilds lost a lot during combat with these changes.
Quote from: Yokunama on October 28, 2008, 08:50:27 PM
Thats good to know, but I know that a couple of guilds lost a lot during combat with these changes.
If you have specifics that you would like to discuss off list, feel free to email me.
Quote from: Yokunama on October 28, 2008, 08:35:15 PM
Since when do you completely STOP listening or paying attention to your surroundings in the real world? Do you all of a sudden become deaf and vision becomes limited/impared when engaged in a battle? Constantly, you are precieving the world around you, even if you are sitting at your computer reading this argument that may or may not have an impact on the game. Some people may have stronger abilities of perception than others, but you do not lose all of them when you are in a fight.
Not only that, theres a couple of guilds that rely on these skills during combat.
How can you read lips of people when you're fighting someone?
How can you overhear people in the next room, when your pulse is pounding as you're fighting someone. Remember, you can't quit out after a fight, because you're too excited!
How can you see a blur, or an expert assassin hiding behind a bar, when you're too busy fighting the soldiers?
A fight superimposes itself on your skills. A fight is a distraction. A fight requires concentration. I'm even for dropping any large items you may be carrying, in a fight!
No, in a fight, you can still hear people shout and talk in the room. That doesn't disappear.
No, during a fight, you can still see people in the room. That doesn't disappear.
Yes, the ability to see hidden / invisible people during a fight is welcome, but not necessary. The ability to hear a beast coming from another room away is also nice, but not necessary.
Scan and Listen do not add anything to combat skills. They add to observing the world around you.
Quote from: Yokunama on October 28, 2008, 08:35:15 PM
Ranger
A ranger possesses two primary abilities: to know where she is at all times and to stalk and kill prey (to feed herself). Because of the emphasis on these two things, rangers are sometimes greatly sought after as companions in the desert--halfling rangers are even a vital part of halfling culture, serving as guides and advisors.
Ranger skills involve hunting persons or animals, exceptional powers of observation, a strong aptitude for archery, and some moderate skill with weapons. Exceptional rangers are able to move silently and remain unseen in the wilderness, detect sounds from far away, work with poisons, and parry enemy blows. Rangers are also able to rescue friends from deadly situations, bandage serious wounds, and have a well-known rapport with animals and can ride beasts of burden from the beginning. While apparently an astonishing array of abilities, rangers are far poorer at combat than warriors, and their skills with poisons and healing powers are actually quite modest.
Rangers are usually the second easiest persons to employ, next to warriors. Any traveler would be a fool to neglect to take a ranger along as a guide, and good rangers can make large sums of money in this profession. In addition, rangers are excellent scouts and spies, able to eavesdrop without being noticed--good rangers can even act as assas- sins. If nothing else, rangers are superior hunters and can typically feed themselves in such places as the Grey Forest (q.v.), and can bring back skins of animals to sell.
First Bold - Desert Storm Walk
Second Bold - Scan
Third Bold - No Combat Skills.
Quote from: Yokunama on October 28, 2008, 08:35:15 PM
Quote from: mansa on October 24, 2008, 01:42:51 PM
... I believe we should be forced to WATCH our primary fighting target
Bad idea. There are plenty instances where you will encounter more than one opponent.
Watch doesn't turn off, 'Look Room', nor does it turn off echos and emotes that another opponent may do.
However, some peoples clients autowatch their primary target. And I want to have the ability to do that, without having to modify my client. Yes, I want it toggle-able, for people who don't want to autowatch someone.
Doesn't watch automatically shut itself off on ANOTHER target, if you're currently in a fight, with the current code? YUP
http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?skill_watch
Fighting someone who you are not watching will stop all watching.
Quote from: Morgenes on October 24, 2008, 03:42:10 PM
If you are under the affect of a magical sleep, you will wake up and be able to fight, however you will have a penalty to your maximum stun applied.
Might I suggest an echo to the affected along the lines of:
You feel a little woozy.Quote from: Morgenes on October 24, 2008, 03:42:10 PM
If you are under the affect of a paralysis affect (mundane or magical) you will have a chance to break out of it, but you will be slowed down based on the original affect.
Might I suggest an echo to the affected along the lines of:
You feel sluggish.
I am very impressed with these changes.
I am fine with these changes, but I swear to Dog if I get this....
You attack a blur!
A blur flees!
(Your scan that you used to see the blur has now went down)
Someone utters an incantation!
You are engulfed in a huge fireball and die like a little bitch.
(Magicker knew your scan went down so just came right back in the room and zapped you)
Or...
You attack a blur!
A blur flees!
You scan the area.
(Delay)
Someone utters an incantation!
You are engulfed in a fireball and die like a little bitch!
(Magicker knew you would be under scan lag and so just came right back in the room and zapped you)
I can see magickers seriously abusing the fuck out of this. Its going to be shit-silly simple to just fucking kill mundanes now, as if it wasnt before.
All they have to do is, flee, and come right back instantly, they will catch the mundane with no scan at all, or even better, in the middle of a scan delay.
The mundane will be fucked, no matter what.
Scan/listen need to have little to no delay. Scan should not break hide.
Those changes will undo the nerfing these changes inflicted on mundane rangers and assassins vs, well, everything.
I'm not sure magicker classes were ever meant to be balanced to mundane classes. That situation is fabricated anyway, panicking about scenarios before they ever happen is kind of silly.
Quote from: Desertman on October 29, 2008, 05:07:45 PM
I am fine with these changes, but I swear to Dog if I get this....
You attack a blur!
A blur flees!
Edit: On second thought, this was a little IC to ask.
Desertman, I'd appreciate it if you'd edit that quote of mine.
Quote from: Fathi on October 29, 2008, 05:12:40 PM
Quote from: Desertman on October 29, 2008, 05:07:45 PM
I am fine with these changes, but I swear to Dog if I get this....
You attack a blur!
A blur flees!
Edited.
Edited again.
Quote from: staggerlee on October 29, 2008, 05:11:12 PM
I'm not sure magicker classes were ever meant to be balanced to mundane classes. That situation is fabricated anyway, panicking about scenarios before they ever happen is kind of silly.
I agree, magickers shouldnt be balanced to mundanes. That point alone might make the fact that magickers could kill mundanes with no effort now moot. So I give you that.
For the sake of arguement...
I didnt notice a panick point. I was just presenting a concern of mine. No panick involved.
Also, I agree that scan/listen should not offer any delay.
Edit. ;)
I think scan not breaking hide is a more important change than scan and listen losing their delays--scan and listen having long delays gives mundanes a disadvantage, but not being able to look around for hidden stuff when you are very good at hiding yourself just plain does not make sense.
I also think that all guilds should have scan to a certain low degree, but that's another argument for another day.
Edit: Ha, beat me to it, Rogue.
Quote from: Desertman on October 29, 2008, 05:07:45 PM
I am fine with these changes, but I swear to Dog if I get this....
You attack a blur!
A blur flees!
(Your scan that you used to see the blur has now went down)
Someone utters an incantation!
You are engulfed in a huge fireball and die like a little bitch.
(Magicker knew your scan went down so just came right back in the room and zapped you)
Or...
You attack a blur!
A blur flees!
You scan the area.
(Delay)
Someone utters an incantation!
You are engulfed in a fireball and die like a little bitch!
(Magicker knew you would be under scan lag and so just came right back in the room and zapped you)
I can see magickers seriously abusing the fuck out of this. Its going to be shit-silly simple to just fucking kill mundanes now, as if it wasnt before.
All they have to do is, flee, and come right back instantly, they will catch the mundane with no scan at all, or even better, in the middle of a scan delay.
The mundane will be fucked, no matter what.
Didn't we decide that we'll be auto-watching the person we attack? If that's the case then Desertman's argument is bogus. If we attack a magicker who is invisble and start auto-watching them then we shouldn't need to scan to see them. We should still see them as a blur.
I'm not sure. If this is the case, and watch does indeed still see a "Blur" even if your scan isnt on, then you are right, my arguement is bogus.
BUT, seeing as how neither of us know how that little bit of code works for certain, for the time being, it has no "bogus factor".
Quote from: a strange shadow on October 29, 2008, 05:10:23 PM
Scan/listen need to have little to no delay. Scan should not break hide.
Those changes will undo the nerfing these changes inflicted on mundane rangers and assassins vs, well, everything.
Seconded. Especially the not breaking hiding...
Personally, I always watch blurs or shadows after spotting them so that I don't lose track of them. Just because you catch sight of them doesn't mean you can track their every moment as you're scanning the entire area.
You have a pretty good point that we should worry over, Desertman. If the code doesn't change to include an auto-watch on our targets than this advice should help.
I think that "battlefield awareness" is a BIG part of fighting. That means noticing the little guy sneaking around your flank without making much noise. A lot of times, it means noticing him before-hand, and realizing that he's far inferior to you as an opponent, and that eventually he'll be making his move when he thinks you aren't paying attention because that's his only chance. The majority of your focus might be on the huge guy with the polearm in front of you, but you cannot defeat him with a dagger sticking out of your ribs. You keep your eyes on that little guy -- you pay attention to him -- your awareness encompasses him and the threat he poses to you.
A great fighter doesn't tune out the rest of the world when he's in a fight. He takes it all in and assesses every variable. He's ready for anything, and he's paying attention to anything that might effect the outcome of the fight. The person that gives their full attention to one opponent dies quickly.
I'm not sure I agree with this change at all. I was on board for the changes to psionics, but limiting mundane skills doesn't seem very realistic to me from both a real world perspective or game balance. Right now it will be entirely possible, and probably frequent, to spend more time "becoming aware" of your surroundings than actually fighting your opponents. I don't think trading a few blows should make you blinded and deaf to everything going on around you.
You're not blinded or deaf. Again, you're fighting for your life. If you want to remain hypersensitive and hyperaware, don't get into the fight. Stand back, watch, and listen.
My character has scan and listen and I like this change, even if it gimps that character in comparison with the way the skill was.
Quote from: Sephiroto on October 29, 2008, 06:48:04 PM
You have a pretty good point that we should worry over, Desertman. If the code doesn't change to include an auto-watch on our targets than this advice should help.
The idea actually hit from the opposite end of the spectrum.
Because of code knowledge that some people have, they sometimes have a tendancy to hide/sneak and attack magickers, then flee, hide/sneak, attack...over and over and over again, simply because of this certain code knowledge that they have.
Now, imagine a magicker suddenly being able to do the equivelant on a mundane, but with fireballs/bolts of lightening as weapons instead of wooden swords.
Holy OUCH!
So, in a way something similar to this has already been abused in the past, I just dont want to see "THIS" abused in the same way, because this code feature being abused would be exponentially more drastic in regards to PK's on mundanes.
Quote from: Sephiroto on October 29, 2008, 07:11:08 PM
You're not blinded or deaf. Again, you're fighting for your life. If you want to remain hypersensitive and hyperaware, don't get into the fight. Stand back, watch, and listen.
My character has scan and listen and I like this change, even if it gimps that character in comparison with the way the skill was.
I'm not sure that I'd attribute the world "hyper" to either of those. You're not a superbeing with super powers -- you're a relatively mundane person with a keen eye and a good ear. You need and use those abilities to fight with, to stay aware of the combat and most importantly how it might be changing.
It sounds like you're just trying to blindly agree with this because you think liking getting gimped proves something. My character may have scan and listen as well, but I won't always. I'll still disagree with this change long after I've left them behind.
Either skill is open to a wide interpretation as to what exactly it entails. I guess the deal here is that each requires a large amount of concentration. By this logic, I want listen and scan to be mutually exclusive. By your own arguments, if you're doing both of these "active" skills, you shouldn't be able to look and hear at the same time. By this same argument, using contact or barrier should also interrupt these skills. You just can't concentrate on more than one thing at a time.
I think it's melee combat that causes interruption to your life, rather than concentration.
Why don't we have these things break when struck by a reasonable blow instead? Something like 'lightly' or whatever is after that.
A sort of middle of both ends approach?
Combat, Barrier, Listen, Scan, Watch, Crafting, Casting...
Pick only one and exclude absolutely everything else.
I think this was a good idea for a fix that was taken just a little too far.
Casting should be interrupted.
Quote from: Desertman on October 29, 2008, 05:07:45 PM
stuff
How about there being a timer on hide that for x seconds after ceasing combat, you cannot rehide or become invisible?
Quote from: Qzzrbl on October 29, 2008, 07:55:00 PM
Quote from: Sephiroto on October 29, 2008, 07:41:07 PM
Casting should be interrupted.
Best idea so far....
I disagree. It's the best idea
ever. It's somewhat silly that their terrifying elemental incantations are not affected by the flurry of combat, but glancing over our shoulder is.
1. I think scan should have its skill significantly -reduced- during combat, but not always auto-shut. So for example:
You're a ranger. You have max scan. You're trying to hunt, you're a damned good fighter for a ranger, and you're wearing decent armor. You spot a goudra. You approach the goudra, you hit the goudra. HARD. It has absolutely no chance to hit you back, because this particular goudra is totally outmatched by the rangerly awesomeness that is you. You could hit this puppy with your eyes closed while reciting Shakespeare, hopping on one foot, and drawing a pretty picture of a flower with your off-hand, and having a full-bore Way conversation with a defiler threatening to pick his teeth with your finger bone, all at the same time.
I can't fathom why your ranger would not be able to notice the greth sneaking past the fight. Your ranger doesn't -have- to pay attention to what he's doing, in this particular fight. Two hits with a single blade and that goudra is down for the count. So maybe he won't see a -third- animal sneaking past in hiding...because he has to pay -a little- attention to what he's doing...
Maybe it should be based on how well or badly matched you are against your opponent, plus how good your scan skill is.
Listen I have no problem with, being changed. Scan though, I can see -lots- of situations in which it makes sense to continue running.
Quote from: Sephiroto on October 29, 2008, 07:41:07 PM
Casting should be interrupted.
Doesn't 'reel' accomplish this already?
And if not it really should.
Quote from: LittleLostThief on October 29, 2008, 07:05:43 PM
I think that "battlefield awareness" is a BIG part of fighting. That means noticing the little guy sneaking around your flank without making much noise. A lot of times, it means noticing him before-hand, and realizing that he's far inferior to you as an opponent, and that eventually he'll be making his move when he thinks you aren't paying attention because that's his only chance. The majority of your focus might be on the huge guy with the polearm in front of you, but you cannot defeat him with a dagger sticking out of your ribs. You keep your eyes on that little guy -- you pay attention to him -- your awareness encompasses him and the threat he poses to you.
A great fighter doesn't tune out the rest of the world when he's in a fight. He takes it all in and assesses every variable. He's ready for anything, and he's paying attention to anything that might effect the outcome of the fight. The person that gives their full attention to one opponent dies quickly.
I'm not sure I agree with this change at all. I was on board for the changes to psionics, but limiting mundane skills doesn't seem very realistic to me from both a real world perspective or game balance. Right now it will be entirely possible, and probably frequent, to spend more time "becoming aware" of your surroundings than actually fighting your opponents. I don't think trading a few blows should make you blinded and deaf to everything going on around you.
This is where I was going to go to with my post, but I did not have enough time. "Battlefield awareness" also includes keeping your eyes open for advantages in the area. If you could corner your opponent or move to terrain that would give you the upper hand, you'd have a better chance of winning.
Actually, I think listen and scan should be functional to some degree -- Their ability to detect hidden/invisible things or people. Limiting their abilites to detect or listen to well-hidden figures in the distance while in combat would be nicer than having the two broken.
Not only that, there are some things in the game that you will never see (they never become visible) without listen and scan, but they can attack you. If you or the attacker flee, your scan and listen is broken, thus leaving you vulnerable.
I'm ok with scan and listen breaking, but would prefer it if:
a) Watching something that is hidden allows you to keep an eye on it even after you are no longer scanning. (and you can't watch and scan at the same time anyway, right?)
b) There was no delay for turning scan and listen on and off. I'd also like for scan to be a toggle skill the way listen is.
Quote from: musashi on October 30, 2008, 02:08:39 PM
a) Watching something that is hidden allows you to keep an eye on it even after you are no longer scanning. (and you can't watch and scan at the same time anyway, right?)
Try this IC and see, I think you might be surprised.
Quote from: Morgenes on October 30, 2008, 02:21:00 PM
Quote from: musashi on October 30, 2008, 02:08:39 PM
a) Watching something that is hidden allows you to keep an eye on it even after you are no longer scanning. (and you can't watch and scan at the same time anyway, right?)
Try this IC and see, I think you might be surprised.
You can't watch in a direction and scan.
Quote from: Yokunama on October 30, 2008, 03:52:18 PM
Quote from: Morgenes on October 30, 2008, 02:21:00 PM
Quote from: musashi on October 30, 2008, 02:08:39 PM
a) Watching something that is hidden allows you to keep an eye on it even after you are no longer scanning. (and you can't watch and scan at the same time anyway, right?)
Try this IC and see, I think you might be surprised.
You can't watch in a direction and scan.
Technically you can not watch and scan at the same time. However, you can watch someone you have spotted with scan, and you won't loose them.
Yay!
Even if they leave the room?
Quote from: Morgenes on October 30, 2008, 04:17:06 PM
Quote from: musashi on October 30, 2008, 04:03:12 PM
Yay!
Even if they leave the room?
yes
Well, this makes my day. Wicked posh.
Now, if you are watching someone, and you attack them, will you stop watching them?
No.
Quote from: Desertman on October 30, 2008, 05:32:30 PM
Quote from: Morgenes on October 30, 2008, 04:17:06 PM
Quote from: musashi on October 30, 2008, 04:03:12 PM
Yay!
Even if they leave the room?
yes
Well, this makes my day. Wicked posh.
Now, if you are watching someone, and you attack them, will you stop watching them?
no
Scan/listen after every fight is starting to get super annoying. Imagine the added spam after group combat.
Possible to just dampen the effects while fighting and have them resume as usual afterward?
Quote from: a strange shadow on October 30, 2008, 07:42:25 PM
Possible to just dampen the effects while fighting and have them resume as usual afterward?
Good idea.
Morgenes ... you're cool :)
I am happy that the insta-death spells have been re-balanced. It always sucked being a victim to them, and I felt cheesy using them. At least now there's a chance. 8)
Quote from: Clearsighted on October 29, 2008, 08:09:57 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on October 29, 2008, 07:55:00 PM
Quote from: Sephiroto on October 29, 2008, 07:41:07 PM
Casting should be interrupted.
Best idea so far....
I disagree. It's the best idea ever. It's somewhat silly that their terrifying elemental incantations are not affected by the flurry of combat, but glancing over our shoulder is.
This would nerf magickers beyond belief. Please, please, PLEASE do not do this.
Quote from: a strange shadow on October 30, 2008, 07:42:25 PM
Possible to just dampen the effects while fighting and have them resume as usual afterward?
It'd be far more better to have the effects of scan and listen lowered to some degree and restored to normal after your character is out of combat. I don't believe that anyone focuses on one person that much to tune out every possible other danger that could present themselves at any given time (traps, other sneaky/invisible agressors in the area, and etc.).
Quote from: Mood on October 31, 2008, 01:24:40 PM
Quote from: Clearsighted on October 29, 2008, 08:09:57 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on October 29, 2008, 07:55:00 PM
Quote from: Sephiroto on October 29, 2008, 07:41:07 PM
Casting should be interrupted.
Best idea so far....
I disagree. It's the best idea ever. It's somewhat silly that their terrifying elemental incantations are not affected by the flurry of combat, but glancing over our shoulder is.
This would nerf magickers beyond belief. Please, please, PLEASE do not do this.
QFT. There is a big difference between casting a spell and actively fighting someone off. Its bad enough that magickers are probably worse at combat that a 7yr old Noble's Aide, but if we can't cast while fighting, every single magicker will cease to exist. We -usually- have to be unarmed, which means no weapons or shields to defend ourselves. Don't do this, I beg any and all in power.
Quote from: Riev on October 31, 2008, 02:52:17 PM
Quote from: Mood on October 31, 2008, 01:24:40 PM
Quote from: Clearsighted on October 29, 2008, 08:09:57 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on October 29, 2008, 07:55:00 PM
Quote from: Sephiroto on October 29, 2008, 07:41:07 PM
Casting should be interrupted.
Best idea so far....
I disagree. It's the best idea ever. It's somewhat silly that their terrifying elemental incantations are not affected by the flurry of combat, but glancing over our shoulder is.
This would nerf magickers beyond belief. Please, please, PLEASE do not do this.
QFT. There is a big difference between casting a spell and actively fighting someone off. Its bad enough that magickers are probably worse at combat that a 7yr old Noble's Aide, but if we can't cast while fighting, every single magicker will cease to exist. We -usually- have to be unarmed, which means no weapons or shields to defend ourselves. Don't do this, I beg any and all in power.
Agreed. This would cripple all magickers in encounters vs. -anything- that attacks them. That is an absolutely terrible idea. It's about as good of an idea as having anyone who attacks a magicker just simply fall over dead.
Quote from: jhunter on October 31, 2008, 03:06:58 PM
Quote from: Riev on October 31, 2008, 02:52:17 PM
Quote from: Mood on October 31, 2008, 01:24:40 PM
Quote from: Clearsighted on October 29, 2008, 08:09:57 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on October 29, 2008, 07:55:00 PM
Quote from: Sephiroto on October 29, 2008, 07:41:07 PM
Casting should be interrupted.
Best idea so far....
I disagree. It's the best idea ever. It's somewhat silly that their terrifying elemental incantations are not affected by the flurry of combat, but glancing over our shoulder is.
This would nerf magickers beyond belief. Please, please, PLEASE do not do this.
QFT. There is a big difference between casting a spell and actively fighting someone off. Its bad enough that magickers are probably worse at combat that a 7yr old Noble's Aide, but if we can't cast while fighting, every single magicker will cease to exist. We -usually- have to be unarmed, which means no weapons or shields to defend ourselves. Don't do this, I beg any and all in power.
Agreed. This would cripple all magickers in encounters vs. -anything- that attacks them. That is an absolutely terrible idea. It's about as good of an idea as having anyone who attacks a magicker just simply fall over dead.
+1 magickers suck at melee combat enough as it is. If people don't like the fact that magick users tend to go invisible and hit you with a spell then run now ... imagine what it would be like if that was the only recourse you left for them to do.
How about a compromise.
I'll agree with this idea if one has to close a distance before attacking at melee.
No more of this HAI I'M COMPLETELY ACROSS THE ROOM BUT I CAN TYPE KILL AND BAMF TO MELEE.
Quote from: Mood on October 31, 2008, 01:24:40 PM
Quote from: Clearsighted on October 29, 2008, 08:09:57 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on October 29, 2008, 07:55:00 PM
Quote from: Sephiroto on October 29, 2008, 07:41:07 PM
Casting should be interrupted.
Best idea so far....
I disagree. It's the best idea ever. It's somewhat silly that their terrifying elemental incantations are not affected by the flurry of combat, but glancing over our shoulder is.
This would nerf magickers beyond belief. Please, please, PLEASE do not do this.
Yes. This is very, very,
very bad. People get annoyed that all magickers do is run around invisible and cast insta-death spells, right? How would this help
at all?
No, no, and triple no on this idea. I'd try to be constructive, but I'm not sure I can be with this one. I could
live with it if manonfire's idea is implemented as well, but think of the implications that would have for raiders and the like.
Plus, I'm pretty sure casting
can be interrupted by damage already, it's just not a 100% chance.
Everyone spoke for me. No to melee cancelling out a cast. Thank you.
I have this idea rattling around in my head that it might be interesting in Arm 2 if there was a skill available to casters that represented "casting under less than ideal conditions." Casting while seated, in combat, and so one would be influenced by, basically, how good you are at getting the job done when you have to improvise a little.
Quote from: Nusku on November 01, 2008, 12:35:33 AM
I have this idea rattling around in my head that it might be interesting in Arm 2 if there was a skill available to casters that represented "casting under less than ideal conditions." Casting while seated, in combat, and so one would be influenced by, basically, how good you are at getting the job done when you have to improvise a little.
This is kinda cool. Though there should be some mundane way of screwing up a casting. To represent the reality that I cant actually shove a spear through your head in one shot.
Accumulations of recent damage could also represent a penalty to spellcasting, whether from a spear through the head or something else. "Combat casting" would kick in as a way to compensate for the penalties accrued by the environment and events around you, such as trying to cast a healing spell in a sandstorm with both of your legs broken because you fell off the Shield Wall, or trying to throw a fireball at close range when you've just been run through with a spear.
Quote from: Nusku on November 01, 2008, 12:56:38 AM
Accumulations of recent damage could also represent a penalty to spellcasting, whether from a spear through the head or something else. "Combat casting" would kick in as a way to compensate for the penalties accrued by the environment and events around you, such as trying to cast a healing spell in a sandstorm with both of your legs broken because you fell off the Shield Wall, or trying to throw a fireball at close range when you've just been run through with a spear.
Does the accumulation of recent damage factor in to one's skill at combat, weapons, or other mundane skills currently? Are you willing to penalize mundane classes as well?
I think limiting mages and their ability to cast due to melee combat is simply not the answer. They are limited enough as is in combat.
Quote from: Lakota on November 01, 2008, 01:15:17 AM
Does the accumulation of recent damage factor in to one's skill at combat, weapons, or other mundane skills currently? Are you willing to penalize mundane classes as well?
I like this idea.
Quote from: Nusku on November 01, 2008, 12:56:38 AM
Accumulations of recent damage could also represent a penalty to spellcasting, whether from a spear through the head or something else. "Combat casting" would kick in as a way to compensate for the penalties accrued by the environment and events around you, such as trying to cast a healing spell in a sandstorm with both of your legs broken because you fell off the Shield Wall, or trying to throw a fireball at close range when you've just been run through with a spear.
I kinda like this, though it should be really
really hard to cast that fireball. It should reflect your skill in general, your skill in that spell, your skill in "Combat Casting", position standing/sitting, the amount of damge hp/sp you've already taken, and how hard you just got hit. And also reeling should stop any casting and fuck any casting in progress, you know, cause your reeling. I like the idea that I can run this 'gicker through and he still might light my ass on fire, I just don't want it to be easy because the first time I see it done my PC's gonna be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over there peeing himself and checking his junk every ten minutes.
We've talked about making environment factor a lot more into the game than it does now. A dark alley should be easier to hide in than a brightly-lit but empty street. A windy day should be harder to shoot in than a calm one. It's a lot harder to ride a mount when you've just been shot with a trio of arrows in the back, a crossbow bolt through the arm, and been hit in the head with a sling stone for good measure. How much of that we'll be able to capture remains to be seen, but certainly if being stabbed in the gut makes it harder to cast, you bet it also makes it harder to parry. I wouldn't even mind seeing location-specific penalties - taking a wound to the arm making it harder to fight, taking a wound to the leg slowing your movement, etc. It's all theoretical at this point, but it's on our minds, at least.
Quote from: Nusku on November 01, 2008, 01:39:05 AM
We've talked about making environment factor a lot more into the game than it does now. A dark alley should be easier to hide in than a brightly-lit but empty street. A windy day should be harder to shoot in than a calm one. It's a lot harder to ride a mount when you've just been shot with a trio of arrows in the back, a crossbow bolt through the arm, and been hit in the head with a sling stone for good measure. How much of that we'll be able to capture remains to be seen, but certainly if being stabbed in the gut makes it harder to cast, you bet it also makes it harder to parry. I wouldn't even mind seeing location-specific penalties - taking a wound to the arm making it harder to fight, taking a wound to the leg slowing your movement, etc. It's all theoretical at this point, but it's on our minds, at least.
I'm diggin' this line of thinking.
Quote from: Nusku on November 01, 2008, 01:39:05 AM
We've talked about making environment factor a lot more into the game than it does now. A dark alley should be easier to hide in than a brightly-lit but empty street. A windy day should be harder to shoot in than a calm one. It's a lot harder to ride a mount when you've just been shot with a trio of arrows in the back, a crossbow bolt through the arm, and been hit in the head with a sling stone for good measure. How much of that we'll be able to capture remains to be seen, but certainly if being stabbed in the gut makes it harder to cast, you bet it also makes it harder to parry. I wouldn't even mind seeing location-specific penalties - taking a wound to the arm making it harder to fight, taking a wound to the leg slowing your movement, etc. It's all theoretical at this point, but it's on our minds, at least.
I love this. So much. The main thing I dig about the coffeemud codebase is that it takes wounding to specific areas into account, possibly resulting in amputation of them if enough damage is done. Seriously though, this would rock. I can't wait to see what comes of this line of thinking.
Quote from: fourTwenty on November 01, 2008, 01:20:19 AM
I kinda like this, though it should be reallyreally hard to cast that fireball. It should reflect your skill in general, your skill in that spell, your skill in "Combat Casting", position standing/sitting, the amount of damge hp/sp you've already taken, and how hard you just got hit. And also reeling should stop any casting and fuck any casting in progress, you know, cause your reeling. I like the idea that I can run this 'gicker through and he still might light my ass on fire, I just don't want it to be easy because the first time I see it done my PC's gonna be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over there peeing himself and checking his junk every ten minutes.
This is relevant to the discussion, so don't take this the wrong way. I'm curious as to how much karma you have accrued thus far. Would you be willing to indulge me?
Secondly, have you ever played a long-lived mage? Do you enjoy playing mages?
Nusku, I am glad to see that you are taking other factors into account as well. If this is fleshed out for mundanes/magickers alike, it could definitely make things more harrowing in terms of combat/casting.
I really like these ideas, Nusku. I want to see environmental factors in, certainly.
Quote from: Lakota on November 01, 2008, 02:10:55 AM
Quote from: fourTwenty on November 01, 2008, 01:20:19 AM
I kinda like this, though it should be reallyreally hard to cast that fireball. It should reflect your skill in general, your skill in that spell, your skill in "Combat Casting", position standing/sitting, the amount of damge hp/sp you've already taken, and how hard you just got hit. And also reeling should stop any casting and fuck any casting in progress, you know, cause your reeling. I like the idea that I can run this 'gicker through and he still might light my ass on fire, I just don't want it to be easy because the first time I see it done my PC's gonna be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over there peeing himself and checking his junk every ten minutes.
This is relevant to the discussion, so don't take this the wrong way. I'm curious as to how much karma you have accrued thus far. Would you be willing to indulge me?
Secondly, have you ever played a long-lived mage? Do you enjoy playing mages?
Nusku, I am glad to see that you are taking other factors into account as well. If this is fleshed out for mundanes/magickers alike, it could definitely make things more harrowing in terms of combat/casting.
I'm aware of which of these are and are not already factoring into the game. As well as most of what the mages can and cannot already do. I'm being intentionally vague and misleading to try and keep some of the illusion and mystery of magick from being stripped away. It's this myth and mystery that makes magick so scary and fun and interesting to newer players(and me cause there still is a lot to discover(Ilove it)) as they discover more about Arm.
Along this line of thinking though, because I do see what you're getting at. I would be interested to know certain people's preferences for playing magickers, particularly those who are more outspoken about making them more powerful and not toning them back in the least. And to answer your question, my view is a little biased as a player who prefers a mundane PC to a magicker. In all frankness, being a mage makes the game way to damn easy, it cuts out almost all semblance of struggle and striving to keep going
for me.
At heart I'm just a pure and simple gamer. I love games of all kinds. And in that air I feel that magick/mundane need some sort of balance. And if it can't be balanced by RP(Which is what I would prefer) and rarity(Hey maybe its just me, not going there) then it should be balanced code wise. And I'm really digging Nusku's line of thinking, about having many different factors affect casting (as well as mundane combat)
Quote from: fourTwenty on November 01, 2008, 02:46:28 AMAt heart I'm just a pure and simple gamer. I love games of all kinds. And in that air I feel that magick/mundane need some sort of balance. And if it can't be balanced by RP(Which is what I would prefer) and rarity(Hey maybe its just me, not going there) then it should be balanced code wise. And I'm really digging Nusku's line of thinking, about having many different factors affect casting (as well as mundane combat)
The only problem with this line of thinking is that Armageddon isn't a "gamer" game--that is to say, it isn't supposed to be a competition. This isn't
World of Warcraft or
Warhammer Online or even
Team Fortress 2, and at its core, it really isn't about coded balance, because it isn't about that sort of competition. Rather, it's about simulating a world, and if the world is made to have powerful, scary magick, then balancing it codedly with non-magick abilities would, frankly, miss the point entirely. In fact, magick would suddenly cease to be scary entirely, and we'd end up with a situation like any hack-and-slash MUD out there where a magicker is simply another class, not something special.
I personally favor coded changes that don't weaken or strengthen magickers (perhaps making it harder for them to reach insane heights of power, but not making it harder for them to be competent) but, at the same time, give a coded reason to foster the fear that the documentation states is there.
Regular hits shouldn't interrupt spells.
However, I am VERY fond of reeling hits cancelling casting. (They already might, can't remember, it's been a long while since I wiggled fingers in game.)
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on November 01, 2008, 10:59:53 AM
Quote from: fourTwenty on November 01, 2008, 02:46:28 AMAt heart I'm just a pure and simple gamer. I love games of all kinds. And in that air I feel that magick/mundane need some sort of balance. And if it can't be balanced by RP(Which is what I would prefer) and rarity(Hey maybe its just me, not going there) then it should be balanced code wise. And I'm really digging Nusku's line of thinking, about having many different factors affect casting (as well as mundane combat)
The only problem with this line of thinking is that Armageddon isn't a "gamer" game--that is to say, it isn't supposed to be a competition. This isn't World of Warcraft or Warhammer Online or even Team Fortress 2, and at its core, it really isn't about coded balance, because it isn't about that sort of competition. Rather, it's about simulating a world, and if the world is made to have powerful, scary magick, then balancing it codedly with non-magick abilities would, frankly, miss the point entirely. In fact, magick would suddenly cease to be scary entirely, and we'd end up with a situation like any hack-and-slash MUD out there where a magicker is simply another class, not something special.
I disagree with this completely. I think Armageddon is -the- gamers game. I feel it's the height of all RPG's. And say what you want, it is still a game. People log on to have fun and pass time. I have said -many- times that I
do think magick should easily kick the shit out of mundane skills, but I also think magick should be a whole lot rarer than it is(or seems right now). My point is, it becomes no fun(remember its a game) to play a mundane if the majority of people are playing magickers. By the time you end up getting things going, forming relationships, and really starting to advance you get killed in 4 seconds. This is okay once in a while and even extremely fun when it's done right (by a player who no longer plays Arm because of an extremely lame death). But it will not be okay or fun if it keeps happening repeatedly.
I
don't think magick ability should be codedly balanced with mundane ability (but I do think mundanes should have some small chance of surviving) However, as more and more mages are played they would need to be toned down a little otherwise it's gonna start sucking to play a mundane (When you know that at 50 days played 40% of the playerbase can still PK you anytime they want for anything they want. There have been many many
great ideas to help keep mages decently rare. Ideas such as, the more mages of an element alive the weaker all mages of that elements power, addictive magicks, markings, backfires, etc etc etc (there's a -lot- of these floating around) I'm sorry but magick either needs to be Rare/WTFBBQKITTEN-BOOM-Powerful! or not as rare/not as powerful either.
And to keep this from being a total derail. Would not
Warriors in a world full of Magick eventually develop some way of fighting off mages. I mean, they're Warriors, their main (and nearly only usefull skills) involve fighting.
Quote from: fourTwenty on November 01, 2008, 03:00:33 PMI have said -many- times that I do think magick should easily kick the shit out of mundane skills, but I also think magick should be a whole lot rarer than it is(or seems right now). My point is, it becomes no fun(remember its a game) to play a mundane if the majority of people are playing magickers.
Well, okay, I can agree with all of this. Keep in mind, of course, that the majority of players are
not playing magickers. The staff have said repeatedly that the current balance between magickers and mundane characters is just fine. I agree that if the majority of characters were magickers, however, mundanes would feel pretty useless--but that isn't the case, and I don't think it ever will be.
Quote from: fourTwenty on November 01, 2008, 03:00:33 PMThere have been many many great ideas to help keep mages decently rare. Ideas such as, the more mages of an element alive the weaker all mages of that elements power, addictive magicks, markings, backfires, etc etc etc (there's a -lot- of these floating around) I'm sorry but magick either needs to be Rare/WTFBBQKITTEN-BOOM-Powerful! or not as rare/not as powerful either.
I don't really agree that some of those are good ideas, especially not the "the more elementalists of an element, the weaker that element is" idea. I don't want all Krathis trying to hunt down every other Krathi in some
Highlander-esque battle for supremacy. But I agree with you: magick should be rare and powerful. The not as rare/weaker option is not what Armageddon is about, and it's what I'm hoping won't happen in Reborn.
Quote from: fourTwenty on November 01, 2008, 03:00:33 PM
And to keep this from being a total derail. Would not Warriors in a world full of Magick eventually develop some way of fighting off mages. I mean, they're Warriors, their main (and nearly only usefull skills) involve fighting.
That depends on if it's possible. Keep in mind that magick is reality-bending, unnatural craziness: in a lot of cases, there really
is no way to cope with it other than get the fuck out of the way, or counter with some reality-bending, unnatural craziness of your own. The problem is that, once you give mundanes a reliable way to kill magickers, magickers become
much less scary. A way to
survive more reliably, sure, I can agree with that (the recent changes to sleep and paralysis are a step in that direction), but not necessarily a way to more reliably
win.
Quote from: fourTwenty on November 01, 2008, 03:00:33 PM
I have said -many- times that I do think magick should easily kick the shit out of mundane skills, but I also think magick should be a whole lot rarer than it is(or seems right now). My point is, it becomes no fun(remember its a game) to play a mundane if the majority of people are playing magickers.
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on November 01, 2008, 03:17:23 PM
Well, okay, I can agree with all of this. Keep in mind, of course, that the majority of players are not playing magickers. The staff have said repeatedly that the current balance between magickers and mundane characters is just fine. I agree that if the majority of characters were magickers, however, mundanes would feel pretty useless--but that isn't the case, and I don't think it ever will be.
That would depend on what each staff members interpretation of "just fine" is. And I've noticed a huge influx recently of magickers. Granted, most of these wont live past 3 days, but it still sucks to see. I don't think mages will ever become the
majority because then Arm would become completely unplayable, but I would be intrested to know what the current percentage of Magicker/Mundane PC's are out there.
Quote from: fourTwenty on November 01, 2008, 03:00:33 PMThere have been many many great ideas to help keep mages decently rare. Ideas such as, the more mages of an element alive the weaker all mages of that elements power, addictive magicks, markings, backfires, etc etc etc (there's a -lot- of these floating around) I'm sorry but magick either needs to be Rare/WTFBBQKITTEN-BOOM-Powerful! or not as rare/not as powerful either.
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on November 01, 2008, 03:17:23 PM
I don't really agree that some of those are good ideas, especially not the "the more elementalists of an element, the weaker that element is" idea. I don't want all Krathis trying to hunt down every other Krathi in some Highlander-esque battle for supremacy. But I agree with you: magick should be rare and powerful. The not as rare/weaker option is not what Armageddon is about, and it's what I'm hoping won't happen in Reborn.
Okay, I actually think that would kick ass and lead to some excellent RP and plot hooks, however that is completely and totally a matter of opinion. We are in total agreement on the bolded part.
Quote from: fourTwenty on November 01, 2008, 03:00:33 PM
And to keep this from being a total derail. Would not Warriors in a world full of Magick eventually develop some way of fighting off mages. I mean, they're Warriors, their main (and nearly only usefull skills) involve fighting.
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on November 01, 2008, 03:17:23 PM
That depends on if it's possible. Keep in mind that magick is reality-bending, unnatural craziness: in a lot of cases, there really is no way to cope with it other than get the fuck out of the way, or counter with some reality-bending, unnatural craziness of your own. The problem is that, once you give mundanes a reliable way to kill magickers, magickers become much less scary. A way to survive more reliably, sure, I can agree with that (the recent changes to sleep and paralysis are a step in that direction), but not necessarily a way to more reliably win.
I think knocking down an arrow with a sword or a poison that paralyzes you instantly on contact counts as reality-bending craziness. I also think you may be a bit hung up on "Winning", that's not what the game's about. But I also think that if my 50 day warrior wants to ride through the desert he can feel a little safer about it than normal. If I've spent my entire life on a harsh, magick-filled world training my martial skills I'm pretty sure that at some point I'd develop a way of knowing that if that stupid feck gets in my face I'm gonna beat his ass to the point where he needs to flee and therefore I can cry and reveal how scared shitless I really am and run my ass back home. Magick is kinda like a gun, if you do it from over there without me seeing you then I'm pretty fucked but if you walk up and stick it in my face I'm going to break you.
Quote from: Tisiphone on November 01, 2008, 01:16:36 AM
Quote from: Lakota on November 01, 2008, 01:15:17 AM
Does the accumulation of recent damage factor in to one's skill at combat, weapons, or other mundane skills currently? Are you willing to penalize mundane classes as well?
I like this idea.
I don't, and it is mostly on the NPC side of things that really discourages me.
Quote from: Dalmeth on November 01, 2008, 03:52:56 PM
Quote from: Tisiphone on November 01, 2008, 01:16:36 AM
Quote from: Lakota on November 01, 2008, 01:15:17 AM
Does the accumulation of recent damage factor in to one's skill at combat, weapons, or other mundane skills currently? Are you willing to penalize mundane classes as well?
I like this idea.
I don't, and it is mostly on the NPC side of things that really discourages me.
Me either. The last thing we need is making the combat code more complicated for newcomers and in general.
Quote from: fourTwenty on November 01, 2008, 03:41:21 PMI think knocking down an arrow with a sword or a poison that paralyzes you instantly on contact counts as reality-bending craziness. I also think you may be a bit hung up on "Winning", that's not what the game's about. But I also think that if my 50 day warrior wants to ride through the desert he can feel a little safer about it than normal. If I've spent my entire life on a harsh, magick-filled world training my martial skills I'm pretty sure that at some point I'd develop a way of knowing that if that stupid feck gets in my face I'm gonna beat his ass to the point where he needs to flee and therefore I can cry and reveal how scared shitless I really am and run my ass back home. Magick is kinda like a gun, if you do it from over there without me seeing you then I'm pretty fucked but if you walk up and stick it in my face I'm going to break you.
I shouldn't have used the word "win," but I define that as far as "winning the battle," i.e. killing the magicker. If you wish to define "winning the battle" as "surviving," then yes, I agree that it should be easier for a mundane to
survive if a magicker wants them dead; I do
not think it should be easier for mundanes to kill magickers, however. It's no fun to be helplessly killed (which is why I agree with the changes to sleep and paralysis to make them much less of a death sentence), but keep in mind that for a lot of magicker characters, being engaged in melee combat is a "flee or die" situation.
Most magick doesn't work at a range--in the vast majority of cases, whoever is casting is going to be in the same room as the target, especially for offensive spells. This means that the caster is in easy melee range, and there's no casting time on an opening melee attack. For the majority of magickers, being engaged in melee combat is a "flee or die" situation. This is why I don't feel that it should be easier for mundanes to kill magickers. I'd like to reiterate, though, that I do agree that a magicker wanting your mundane dead should be less of a guaranteed death sentence, unless we're talking 50-day Krathi vs. 50-day Warrior.
I don't know about you, but seeing a 50-day Warrior kill a prepared (i.e. full mana, defensive spells cast, etc.) 50-day Krathi solo would make me start to wonder whether magick is really special at all, or just a different, flashier way of dealing HP damage, which is what I was getting at with the MMORPG references earlier.
Quote from: Yokunama on November 01, 2008, 03:55:32 PM
Quote from: Dalmeth on November 01, 2008, 03:52:56 PM
Quote from: Tisiphone on November 01, 2008, 01:16:36 AM
Quote from: Lakota on November 01, 2008, 01:15:17 AM
Does the accumulation of recent damage factor in to one's skill at combat, weapons, or other mundane skills currently? Are you willing to penalize mundane classes as well?
I like this idea.
I don't, and it is mostly on the NPC side of things that really discourages me.
Me either. The last thing we need is making the combat code more complicated for newcomers and in general.
I like it. Getting bashed in the head with a mace a few times should really make your swordwork a little sloppy. However, I think it would also kick ass that once you reach a certain lack of HP (near death or something) certain classes should get a dodge bonus. To represent a Warriors lust for the battle or an Assassins escape plan.
Quote from: fourTwenty on November 01, 2008, 04:00:02 PM
Quote from: Yokunama on November 01, 2008, 03:55:32 PM
Quote from: Dalmeth on November 01, 2008, 03:52:56 PM
Quote from: Tisiphone on November 01, 2008, 01:16:36 AM
Quote from: Lakota on November 01, 2008, 01:15:17 AM
Does the accumulation of recent damage factor in to one's skill at combat, weapons, or other mundane skills currently? Are you willing to penalize mundane classes as well?
I like this idea.
I don't, and it is mostly on the NPC side of things that really discourages me.
Me either. The last thing we need is making the combat code more complicated for newcomers and in general.
I like it. Getting bashed in the head with a mace a few times should really make your swordwork a little sloppy. However, I think it would also kick ass that once you reach a certain lack of HP (near death or something) certain classes should get a dodge bonus. To represent a Warriors lust for the battle or an Assassins escape plan.
I think we start getting a little
away from reality, at this point. If your body is torn and ragged, after a point, it doesn't matter how angry or quick-witted you are.
I'd rather the idea not be implemented at all than to have situations like that.
Quote from: fourTwenty on November 01, 2008, 03:41:21 PMI think knocking down an arrow with a sword or a poison that paralyzes you instantly on contact counts as reality-bending craziness. I also think you may be a bit hung up on "Winning", that's not what the game's about. But I also think that if my 50 day warrior wants to ride through the desert he can feel a little safer about it than normal. If I've spent my entire life on a harsh, magick-filled world training my martial skills I'm pretty sure that at some point I'd develop a way of knowing that if that stupid feck gets in my face I'm gonna beat his ass to the point where he needs to flee and therefore I can cry and reveal how scared shitless I really am and run my ass back home. Magick is kinda like a gun, if you do it from over there without me seeing you then I'm pretty fucked but if you walk up and stick it in my face I'm going to break you.
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on November 01, 2008, 03:58:45 PM
I shouldn't have used the word "win," but I define that as far as "winning the battle," i.e. killing the magicker. If you wish to define "winning the battle" as "surviving," then yes, I agree that it should be easier for a mundane to survive if a magicker wants them dead; I do not think it should be easier for mundanes to kill magickers, however.
Complete agreement.
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on November 01, 2008, 03:58:45 PM
Most magick doesn't work at a range--in the vast majority of cases, whoever is casting is going to be in the same room as the target, especially for offensive spells. This means that the caster is in easy melee range, and there's no casting time on an opening melee attack.
This needs to be fixed, Magickers should be able to reek a little havoc without being in melee range.
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on November 01, 2008, 03:58:45 PM
For the majority of magickers, being engaged in melee combat is a "flee or die" situation.
I think this is the way it should be for -most- magickers. I think they should stay the feck outta melee combat. However, in order for this to be fair or fun in any way for players who prefer mages the above fixes to range and shit needs to be addressed.
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on November 01, 2008, 03:58:45 PM
I don't know about you, but seeing a 50-day Warrior kill a prepared (i.e. full mana, defensive spells cast, etc.) 50-day Krathi solo would make me start to wonder whether magick is really special at all, or just a different, flashier way of dealing HP damage, which is what I was getting at with the MMORPG references earlier.
Again, completely agree. 50 day Krathi vs 50 Day warrior, Krathi ought to blow his ass out of the sand without breaking a sweat (And a Krathi is the one mage I think should receive legitimate melee skills).
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on November 01, 2008, 04:02:27 PM
Quote from: fourTwenty on November 01, 2008, 04:00:02 PM
Quote from: Yokunama on November 01, 2008, 03:55:32 PM
Quote from: Dalmeth on November 01, 2008, 03:52:56 PM
Quote from: Tisiphone on November 01, 2008, 01:16:36 AM
Quote from: Lakota on November 01, 2008, 01:15:17 AM
Does the accumulation of recent damage factor in to one's skill at combat, weapons, or other mundane skills currently? Are you willing to penalize mundane classes as well?
I like this idea.
I don't, and it is mostly on the NPC side of things that really discourages me.
Me either. The last thing we need is making the combat code more complicated for newcomers and in general.
I like it. Getting bashed in the head with a mace a few times should really make your swordwork a little sloppy. However, I think it would also kick ass that once you reach a certain lack of HP (near death or something) certain classes should get a dodge bonus. To represent a Warriors lust for the battle or an Assassins escape plan.
I think we start getting a little away from reality, at this point. If your body is torn and ragged, after a point, it doesn't matter how angry or quick-witted you are.
I'd rather the idea not be implemented at all than to have situations like that.
Adrenaline is a motherfucker. Especially if you think your about to die.
Quote from: fourTwenty on November 01, 2008, 04:08:45 PMAgain, completely agree. 50 day Krathi vs 50 Day warrior, Krathi ought to blow his ass out of the sand without breaking a sweat.
I think maybe we've just been arguing over misunderstanding one another, then. ;) We seem to be pretty much in agreement.
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on November 01, 2008, 04:25:03 PM
Quote from: fourTwenty on November 01, 2008, 04:08:45 PMAgain, completely agree. 50 day Krathi vs 50 Day warrior, Krathi ought to blow his ass out of the sand without breaking a sweat.
I think maybe we've just been arguing over misunderstanding one another, then. ;) We seem to be pretty much in agreement.
Argument where? I was under the impression we were having a lively discussion about a game we apparently both enjoy immensely ;)
Quote from: fourTwenty on November 01, 2008, 04:30:41 PM
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on November 01, 2008, 04:25:03 PM
Quote from: fourTwenty on November 01, 2008, 04:08:45 PMAgain, completely agree. 50 day Krathi vs 50 Day warrior, Krathi ought to blow his ass out of the sand without breaking a sweat.
I think maybe we've just been arguing over misunderstanding one another, then. ;) We seem to be pretty much in agreement.
Argument where? I was under the impression we were having a lively discussion about a game we apparently both enjoy immensely ;)
True, true. ;D
Has anyone dropped the idea that because of fight or flight, or some other natural reaction to extreme circumstances, that mages might actually become more powerful? Or they might fire off a random spell in defense? I don't know the nature of how magic works in arm, but this seems like a possibility to me.
Quote from: Dalmeth on November 01, 2008, 03:52:56 PM
Quote from: Tisiphone on November 01, 2008, 01:16:36 AM
Quote from: Lakota on November 01, 2008, 01:15:17 AM
Does the accumulation of recent damage factor in to one's skill at combat, weapons, or other mundane skills currently? Are you willing to penalize mundane classes as well?
I like this idea.
I don't, and it is mostly on the NPC side of things that really discourages me.
As long as this were applicable to NPC's as well, I really see no problem?
Hasn't the poison bug been fixed so that NPC's are affected by taints now? I was under the impression they were susceptible now in similar fashion. Could the code not be worked to reflect both sides properly?
I'm not saying we -should- implement this, but if we are going to go down this path, we need all our 't's' crossed and 'i's' dotted.
Quote from: Lakota on November 02, 2008, 10:50:47 PM
Hasn't the poison bug been fixed so that NPC's are affected by taints now? I was under the impression they were susceptible now in similar fashion.
Per http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,29388.0.html (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,29388.0.html) NPCs are affected by poison.
Thought so!
MUAH!!
That's me kissing you..in a totally cool, platonic way. I mean...<.<