During Combat...

[Nusku]

Accumulations of recent damage could also represent a penalty to spellcasting, whether from a spear through the head or something else. "Combat casting" would kick in as a way to compensate for the penalties accrued by the environment and events around you, such as trying to cast a healing spell in a sandstorm with both of your legs broken because you fell off the Shield Wall, or trying to throw a fireball at close range when you've just been run through with a spear.

[Lakota]

Accumulations of recent damage could also represent a penalty to spellcasting, whether from a spear through the head or something else. "Combat casting" would kick in as a way to compensate for the penalties accrued by the environment and events around you, such as trying to cast a healing spell in a sandstorm with both of your legs broken because you fell off the Shield Wall, or trying to throw a fireball at close range when you've just been run through with a spear.

Does the accumulation of recent damage factor in to one's skill at combat, weapons, or other mundane skills currently? Are you willing to penalize mundane classes as well?

I think limiting mages and their ability to cast due to melee combat is simply not the answer. They are limited enough as is in combat.

[Tisiphone]

Does the accumulation of recent damage factor in to one's skill at combat, weapons, or other mundane skills currently? Are you willing to penalize mundane classes as well?

I like this idea.

[fourTwenty]

Accumulations of recent damage could also represent a penalty to spellcasting, whether from a spear through the head or something else. "Combat casting" would kick in as a way to compensate for the penalties accrued by the environment and events around you, such as trying to cast a healing spell in a sandstorm with both of your legs broken because you fell off the Shield Wall, or trying to throw a fireball at close range when you've just been run through with a spear.

I kinda like this, though it should be reallyreally hard to cast that fireball. It should reflect your skill in general, your skill in that spell, your skill in "Combat Casting", position standing/sitting, the amount of damge hp/sp you've already taken, and how hard you just got hit. And also reeling should stop any casting and fuck any casting in progress, you know, cause your reeling. I like the idea that I can run this 'gicker through and he still might light my ass on fire, I just don't want it to be easy because the first time I see it done my PC's gonna be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over there peeing himself and checking his junk every ten minutes.

[Nusku]

We've talked about making environment factor a lot more into the game than it does now. A dark alley should be easier to hide in than a brightly-lit but empty street. A windy day should be harder to shoot in than a calm one. It's a lot harder to ride a mount when you've just been shot with a trio of arrows in the back, a crossbow bolt through the arm, and been hit in the head with a sling stone for good measure. How much of that we'll be able to capture remains to be seen, but certainly if being stabbed in the gut makes it harder to cast, you bet it also makes it harder to parry. I wouldn't even mind seeing location-specific penalties - taking a wound to the arm making it harder to fight, taking a wound to the leg slowing your movement, etc. It's all theoretical at this point, but it's on our minds, at least.

[fourTwenty]

We've talked about making environment factor a lot more into the game than it does now. A dark alley should be easier to hide in than a brightly-lit but empty street. A windy day should be harder to shoot in than a calm one. It's a lot harder to ride a mount when you've just been shot with a trio of arrows in the back, a crossbow bolt through the arm, and been hit in the head with a sling stone for good measure. How much of that we'll be able to capture remains to be seen, but certainly if being stabbed in the gut makes it harder to cast, you bet it also makes it harder to parry. I wouldn't even mind seeing location-specific penalties - taking a wound to the arm making it harder to fight, taking a wound to the leg slowing your movement, etc. It's all theoretical at this point, but it's on our minds, at least.

I'm diggin' this line of thinking.

[AmandaGreathouse]

We've talked about making environment factor a lot more into the game than it does now. A dark alley should be easier to hide in than a brightly-lit but empty street. A windy day should be harder to shoot in than a calm one. It's a lot harder to ride a mount when you've just been shot with a trio of arrows in the back, a crossbow bolt through the arm, and been hit in the head with a sling stone for good measure. How much of that we'll be able to capture remains to be seen, but certainly if being stabbed in the gut makes it harder to cast, you bet it also makes it harder to parry. I wouldn't even mind seeing location-specific penalties - taking a wound to the arm making it harder to fight, taking a wound to the leg slowing your movement, etc. It's all theoretical at this point, but it's on our minds, at least.

I love this. So much. The main thing I dig about the coffeemud codebase is that it takes wounding to specific areas into account, possibly resulting in amputation of them if enough damage is done. Seriously though, this would rock. I can't wait to see what comes of this line of thinking.

[Lakota]

I kinda like this, though it should be reallyreally hard to cast that fireball. It should reflect your skill in general, your skill in that spell, your skill in "Combat Casting", position standing/sitting, the amount of damge hp/sp you've already taken, and how hard you just got hit. And also reeling should stop any casting and fuck any casting in progress, you know, cause your reeling. I like the idea that I can run this 'gicker through and he still might light my ass on fire, I just don't want it to be easy because the first time I see it done my PC's gonna be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over there peeing himself and checking his junk every ten minutes.

This is relevant to the discussion, so don't take this the wrong way. I'm curious as to how much karma you have accrued thus far. Would you be willing to indulge me?

Secondly, have you ever played a long-lived mage? Do you enjoy playing mages?

Nusku, I am glad to see that you are taking other factors into account as well. If this is fleshed out for mundanes/magickers alike, it could definitely make things more harrowing in terms of combat/casting.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I really like these ideas, Nusku. I want to see environmental factors in, certainly.

[fourTwenty]

I kinda like this, though it should be reallyreally hard to cast that fireball. It should reflect your skill in general, your skill in that spell, your skill in "Combat Casting", position standing/sitting, the amount of damge hp/sp you've already taken, and how hard you just got hit. And also reeling should stop any casting and fuck any casting in progress, you know, cause your reeling. I like the idea that I can run this 'gicker through and he still might light my ass on fire, I just don't want it to be easy because the first time I see it done my PC's gonna be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over there peeing himself and checking his junk every ten minutes.

This is relevant to the discussion, so don't take this the wrong way. I'm curious as to how much karma you have accrued thus far. Would you be willing to indulge me?

Secondly, have you ever played a long-lived mage? Do you enjoy playing mages?

Nusku, I am glad to see that you are taking other factors into account as well. If this is fleshed out for mundanes/magickers alike, it could definitely make things more harrowing in terms of combat/casting.

I'm aware of which of these are and are not already factoring into the game. As well as most of what the mages can and cannot already do. I'm being intentionally vague and misleading to try and keep some of the illusion and mystery of magick from being stripped away. It's this myth and mystery that makes magick so scary and fun and interesting to newer players(and me cause there still is a lot to discover(Ilove it)) as they discover more about Arm.

Along this line of thinking though, because I do see what you're getting at. I would be interested to know certain people's preferences for playing magickers, particularly those who are more outspoken about making them more powerful and not toning them back in the least. And to answer your question, my view is a little biased as a player who prefers a mundane PC to a magicker. In all frankness, being a mage makes the game way to damn easy, it cuts out almost all semblance of struggle and striving to keep going for me.

At heart I'm just a pure and simple gamer. I love games of all kinds. And in that air I feel that magick/mundane need some sort of balance. And if it can't be balanced by RP(Which is what I would prefer) and rarity(Hey maybe its just me, not going there) then it should be balanced code wise. And I'm really digging Nusku's line of thinking, about having many different factors affect casting (as well as mundane combat)

[NoteworthyFellow]

At heart I'm just a pure and simple gamer. I love games of all kinds. And in that air I feel that magick/mundane need some sort of balance. And if it can't be balanced by RP(Which is what I would prefer) and rarity(Hey maybe its just me, not going there) then it should be balanced code wise. And I'm really digging Nusku's line of thinking, about having many different factors affect casting (as well as mundane combat)

The only problem with this line of thinking is that Armageddon isn't a "gamer" game--that is to say, it isn't supposed to be a competition.  This isn't World of Warcraft or Warhammer Online or even Team Fortress 2, and at its core, it really isn't about coded balance, because it isn't about that sort of competition.  Rather, it's about simulating a world, and if the world is made to have powerful, scary magick, then balancing it codedly with non-magick abilities would, frankly, miss the point entirely.  In fact, magick would suddenly cease to be scary entirely, and we'd end up with a situation like any hack-and-slash MUD out there where a magicker is simply another class, not something special.

I personally favor coded changes that don't weaken or strengthen magickers (perhaps making it harder for them to reach insane heights of power, but not making it harder for them to be competent) but, at the same time, give a coded reason to foster the fear that the documentation states is there.

[BuNutzCola]

Regular hits shouldn't interrupt spells.

However, I am VERY fond of reeling hits cancelling casting. (They already might, can't remember, it's been a long while since I wiggled fingers in game.)

[fourTwenty]

At heart I'm just a pure and simple gamer. I love games of all kinds. And in that air I feel that magick/mundane need some sort of balance. And if it can't be balanced by RP(Which is what I would prefer) and rarity(Hey maybe its just me, not going there) then it should be balanced code wise. And I'm really digging Nusku's line of thinking, about having many different factors affect casting (as well as mundane combat)

The only problem with this line of thinking is that Armageddon isn't a "gamer" game--that is to say, it isn't supposed to be a competition.  This isn't World of Warcraft or Warhammer Online or even Team Fortress 2, and at its core, it really isn't about coded balance, because it isn't about that sort of competition.  Rather, it's about simulating a world, and if the world is made to have powerful, scary magick, then balancing it codedly with non-magick abilities would, frankly, miss the point entirely.  In fact, magick would suddenly cease to be scary entirely, and we'd end up with a situation like any hack-and-slash MUD out there where a magicker is simply another class, not something special.

I disagree with this completely. I think Armageddon is -the- gamers game. I feel it's the height of all RPG's. And say what you want, it is still a game. People log on to have fun and pass time. I have said -many- times that I do think magick should easily kick the shit out of mundane skills, but I also think magick should be a whole lot rarer than it is(or seems right now). My point is, it becomes no fun(remember its a game) to play a mundane if the majority of people are playing magickers. By the time you end up getting things going, forming relationships, and really starting to advance you get killed in 4 seconds. This is okay once in a while and even extremely fun when it's done right (by a player who no longer plays Arm because of an extremely lame death). But it will not be okay or fun if it keeps happening repeatedly.

I don't think magick ability should be codedly balanced with mundane ability (but I do think mundanes should have some small chance of surviving) However, as more and more mages are played they would need to be toned down a little otherwise it's gonna start sucking to play a mundane (When you know that at 50 days played 40% of the playerbase can still PK you anytime they want for anything they want. There have been many many great ideas to help keep mages decently rare. Ideas such as, the more mages of an element alive the weaker all mages of that elements power, addictive magicks, markings, backfires, etc etc etc (there's a -lot- of these floating around) I'm sorry but magick either needs to be Rare/WTFBBQKITTEN-BOOM-Powerful! or not as rare/not as powerful either.


And to keep this from being a total derail. Would not Warriors in a world full of Magick eventually develop some way of fighting off mages. I mean, they're Warriors, their main (and nearly only usefull skills) involve fighting.

[NoteworthyFellow]

I have said -many- times that I do think magick should easily kick the shit out of mundane skills, but I also think magick should be a whole lot rarer than it is(or seems right now). My point is, it becomes no fun(remember its a game) to play a mundane if the majority of people are playing magickers.

Well, okay, I can agree with all of this.  Keep in mind, of course, that the majority of players are not playing magickers.  The staff have said repeatedly that the current balance between magickers and mundane characters is just fine.  I agree that if the majority of characters were magickers, however, mundanes would feel pretty useless--but that isn't the case, and I don't think it ever will be.

There have been many many great ideas to help keep mages decently rare. Ideas such as, the more mages of an element alive the weaker all mages of that elements power, addictive magicks, markings, backfires, etc etc etc (there's a -lot- of these floating around) I'm sorry but magick either needs to be Rare/WTFBBQKITTEN-BOOM-Powerful! or not as rare/not as powerful either.

I don't really agree that some of those are good ideas, especially not the "the more elementalists of an element, the weaker that element is" idea.  I don't want all Krathis trying to hunt down every other Krathi in some Highlander-esque battle for supremacy.  But I agree with you: magick should be rare and powerful.  The not as rare/weaker option is not what Armageddon is about, and it's what I'm hoping won't happen in Reborn.

And to keep this from being a total derail. Would not Warriors in a world full of Magick eventually develop some way of fighting off mages. I mean, they're Warriors, their main (and nearly only usefull skills) involve fighting.

That depends on if it's possible.  Keep in mind that magick is reality-bending, unnatural craziness: in a lot of cases, there really is no way to cope with it other than get the fuck out of the way, or counter with some reality-bending, unnatural craziness of your own.  The problem is that, once you give mundanes a reliable way to kill magickers, magickers become much less scary.  A way to survive more reliably, sure, I can agree with that (the recent changes to sleep and paralysis are a step in that direction), but not necessarily a way to more reliably win.

[fourTwenty]

I have said -many- times that I do think magick should easily kick the shit out of mundane skills, but I also think magick should be a whole lot rarer than it is(or seems right now). My point is, it becomes no fun(remember its a game) to play a mundane if the majority of people are playing magickers.

Well, okay, I can agree with all of this.  Keep in mind, of course, that the majority of players are not playing magickers.  The staff have said repeatedly that the current balance between magickers and mundane characters is just fine.  I agree that if the majority of characters were magickers, however, mundanes would feel pretty useless--but that isn't the case, and I don't think it ever will be.

That would depend on what each staff members interpretation of "just fine" is. And I've noticed a huge influx recently of magickers. Granted, most of these wont live past 3 days, but it still sucks to see. I don't think mages will ever become the majority because then Arm would become completely unplayable, but I would be intrested to know what the current percentage of Magicker/Mundane PC's are out there.

There have been many many great ideas to help keep mages decently rare. Ideas such as, the more mages of an element alive the weaker all mages of that elements power, addictive magicks, markings, backfires, etc etc etc (there's a -lot- of these floating around) I'm sorry but magick either needs to be Rare/WTFBBQKITTEN-BOOM-Powerful! or not as rare/not as powerful either.

I don't really agree that some of those are good ideas, especially not the "the more elementalists of an element, the weaker that element is" idea.  I don't want all Krathis trying to hunt down every other Krathi in some Highlander-esque battle for supremacy.  But I agree with you: magick should be rare and powerful.  The not as rare/weaker option is not what Armageddon is about, and it's what I'm hoping won't happen in Reborn.

Okay, I actually think that would kick ass and lead to some excellent RP and plot hooks, however that is completely and totally a matter of opinion. We are in total agreement on the bolded part.

And to keep this from being a total derail. Would not Warriors in a world full of Magick eventually develop some way of fighting off mages. I mean, they're Warriors, their main (and nearly only usefull skills) involve fighting.

That depends on if it's possible.  Keep in mind that magick is reality-bending, unnatural craziness: in a lot of cases, there really is no way to cope with it other than get the fuck out of the way, or counter with some reality-bending, unnatural craziness of your own.  The problem is that, once you give mundanes a reliable way to kill magickers, magickers become much less scary.  A way to survive more reliably, sure, I can agree with that (the recent changes to sleep and paralysis are a step in that direction), but not necessarily a way to more reliably win.

I think knocking down an arrow with a sword or a poison that paralyzes you instantly on contact counts as reality-bending craziness. I also think you may be a bit hung up on "Winning", that's not what the game's about. But I also think that if my 50 day warrior wants to ride through the desert he can feel a little safer about it than normal. If I've spent my entire life on a harsh, magick-filled world training my martial skills I'm pretty sure that at some point I'd develop a way of knowing that if that stupid feck gets in my face I'm gonna beat his ass to the point where he needs to flee and therefore I can cry and reveal how scared shitless I really am and run my ass back home. Magick is kinda like a gun, if you do it from over there without me seeing you then I'm pretty fucked but if you walk up and stick it in my face I'm going to break you.

[Dalmeth]

Does the accumulation of recent damage factor in to one's skill at combat, weapons, or other mundane skills currently? Are you willing to penalize mundane classes as well?

I like this idea.

I don't, and it is mostly on the NPC side of things that really discourages me.

[Yokunama]

Does the accumulation of recent damage factor in to one's skill at combat, weapons, or other mundane skills currently? Are you willing to penalize mundane classes as well?

I like this idea.

I don't, and it is mostly on the NPC side of things that really discourages me.

Me either. The last thing we need is making the combat code more complicated for newcomers and in general.

[NoteworthyFellow]

I think knocking down an arrow with a sword or a poison that paralyzes you instantly on contact counts as reality-bending craziness. I also think you may be a bit hung up on "Winning", that's not what the game's about. But I also think that if my 50 day warrior wants to ride through the desert he can feel a little safer about it than normal. If I've spent my entire life on a harsh, magick-filled world training my martial skills I'm pretty sure that at some point I'd develop a way of knowing that if that stupid feck gets in my face I'm gonna beat his ass to the point where he needs to flee and therefore I can cry and reveal how scared shitless I really am and run my ass back home. Magick is kinda like a gun, if you do it from over there without me seeing you then I'm pretty fucked but if you walk up and stick it in my face I'm going to break you.

I shouldn't have used the word "win," but I define that as far as "winning the battle," i.e. killing the magicker.  If you wish to define "winning the battle" as "surviving," then yes, I agree that it should be easier for a mundane to survive if a magicker wants them dead; I do not think it should be easier for mundanes to kill magickers, however.  It's no fun to be helplessly killed (which is why I agree with the changes to sleep and paralysis to make them much less of a death sentence), but keep in mind that for a lot of magicker characters, being engaged in melee combat is a "flee or die" situation.

Most magick doesn't work at a range--in the vast majority of cases, whoever is casting is going to be in the same room as the target, especially for offensive spells.  This means that the caster is in easy melee range, and there's no casting time on an opening melee attack.  For the majority of magickers, being engaged in melee combat is a "flee or die" situation.  This is why I don't feel that it should be easier for mundanes to kill magickers.  I'd like to reiterate, though, that I do agree that a magicker wanting your mundane dead should be less of a guaranteed death sentence, unless we're talking 50-day Krathi vs. 50-day Warrior.

I don't know about you, but seeing a 50-day Warrior kill a prepared (i.e. full mana, defensive spells cast, etc.) 50-day Krathi solo would make me start to wonder whether magick is really special at all, or just a different, flashier way of dealing HP damage, which is what I was getting at with the MMORPG references earlier.

[fourTwenty]

Does the accumulation of recent damage factor in to one's skill at combat, weapons, or other mundane skills currently? Are you willing to penalize mundane classes as well?

I like this idea.

I don't, and it is mostly on the NPC side of things that really discourages me.

Me either. The last thing we need is making the combat code more complicated for newcomers and in general.

I like it. Getting bashed in the head with a mace a few times should really make your swordwork a little sloppy. However, I think it would also kick ass that once you reach a certain lack of HP (near death or something) certain classes should get a dodge bonus. To represent a Warriors lust for the battle or an Assassins escape plan.

[NoteworthyFellow]

Does the accumulation of recent damage factor in to one's skill at combat, weapons, or other mundane skills currently? Are you willing to penalize mundane classes as well?

I like this idea.

I don't, and it is mostly on the NPC side of things that really discourages me.

Me either. The last thing we need is making the combat code more complicated for newcomers and in general.

I like it. Getting bashed in the head with a mace a few times should really make your swordwork a little sloppy. However, I think it would also kick ass that once you reach a certain lack of HP (near death or something) certain classes should get a dodge bonus. To represent a Warriors lust for the battle or an Assassins escape plan.

I think we start getting a little away from reality, at this point.  If your body is torn and ragged, after a point, it doesn't matter how angry or quick-witted you are.

I'd rather the idea not be implemented at all than to have situations like that.

[fourTwenty]

I think knocking down an arrow with a sword or a poison that paralyzes you instantly on contact counts as reality-bending craziness. I also think you may be a bit hung up on "Winning", that's not what the game's about. But I also think that if my 50 day warrior wants to ride through the desert he can feel a little safer about it than normal. If I've spent my entire life on a harsh, magick-filled world training my martial skills I'm pretty sure that at some point I'd develop a way of knowing that if that stupid feck gets in my face I'm gonna beat his ass to the point where he needs to flee and therefore I can cry and reveal how scared shitless I really am and run my ass back home. Magick is kinda like a gun, if you do it from over there without me seeing you then I'm pretty fucked but if you walk up and stick it in my face I'm going to break you.

I shouldn't have used the word "win," but I define that as far as "winning the battle," i.e. killing the magicker.  If you wish to define "winning the battle" as "surviving," then yes, I agree that it should be easier for a mundane to survive if a magicker wants them dead; I do not think it should be easier for mundanes to kill magickers, however.

Complete agreement.

Most magick doesn't work at a range--in the vast majority of cases, whoever is casting is going to be in the same room as the target, especially for offensive spells.  This means that the caster is in easy melee range, and there's no casting time on an opening melee attack.

This needs to be fixed, Magickers should be able to reek a little havoc without being in melee range.  

For the majority of magickers, being engaged in melee combat is a "flee or die" situation.

I think this is the way it should be for -most- magickers. I think they should stay the feck outta melee combat. However, in order for this to be fair or fun in any way for players who prefer mages the above fixes to range and shit needs to be addressed.

I don't know about you, but seeing a 50-day Warrior kill a prepared (i.e. full mana, defensive spells cast, etc.) 50-day Krathi solo would make me start to wonder whether magick is really special at all, or just a different, flashier way of dealing HP damage, which is what I was getting at with the MMORPG references earlier.

Again, completely agree. 50 day Krathi vs 50 Day warrior, Krathi ought to blow his ass out of the sand without breaking a sweat (And a Krathi is the one mage I think should receive legitimate melee skills).

[fourTwenty]

Does the accumulation of recent damage factor in to one's skill at combat, weapons, or other mundane skills currently? Are you willing to penalize mundane classes as well?

I like this idea.

I don't, and it is mostly on the NPC side of things that really discourages me.

Me either. The last thing we need is making the combat code more complicated for newcomers and in general.

I like it. Getting bashed in the head with a mace a few times should really make your swordwork a little sloppy. However, I think it would also kick ass that once you reach a certain lack of HP (near death or something) certain classes should get a dodge bonus. To represent a Warriors lust for the battle or an Assassins escape plan.

I think we start getting a little away from reality, at this point.  If your body is torn and ragged, after a point, it doesn't matter how angry or quick-witted you are.

I'd rather the idea not be implemented at all than to have situations like that.

Adrenaline is a motherfucker. Especially if you think your about to die.

[NoteworthyFellow]

Again, completely agree. 50 day Krathi vs 50 Day warrior, Krathi ought to blow his ass out of the sand without breaking a sweat.

I think maybe we've just been arguing over misunderstanding one another, then.    We seem to be pretty much in agreement.

[fourTwenty]

Again, completely agree. 50 day Krathi vs 50 Day warrior, Krathi ought to blow his ass out of the sand without breaking a sweat.

I think maybe we've just been arguing over misunderstanding one another, then.    We seem to be pretty much in agreement.

Argument where? I was under the impression we were having a lively discussion about a game we apparently both enjoy immensely

[NoteworthyFellow]

Again, completely agree. 50 day Krathi vs 50 Day warrior, Krathi ought to blow his ass out of the sand without breaking a sweat.

I think maybe we've just been arguing over misunderstanding one another, then.    We seem to be pretty much in agreement.

Argument where? I was under the impression we were having a lively discussion about a game we apparently both enjoy immensely

True, true.