I don't mean to write yet another 'roleplay in Tuluk is about subtlety' thread - but well over half my time in this game has been devoted to this often misunderstood and sometimes maligned city - this isn't an attempt to say how it should be played, but a few suggestions that I've learned to help carry the day.
First, what makes a Tuluki... Tuluki?
The culture of Tuluk is not, as some people say, "happy bunny tree-huggers". Tuluk is founded on a tribal culture - tribal cultures tend to have different values and ideals than that non-tribal based societies. These particular aspects of tribal culture could be described as:
Strong hierarchy with semi-permeable boundries: The caste system in Tuluk is not as rigid as some people seem to think that it is. Yes - sexual relationships between castes are unthinkable (see: Tuluki Roleplay docs) but friendships - often strong ones, can be developed. The key to this (this is the semi-permeable boundry part) is the strong hierarchy. Tuluk is founded on tribal cultures - these cultures revere and idolize their elders. However, this relationship is vastly different than southern relationships. Chosen can be reasoned with, bargained with, schemed with - they can be involved with your character on a meaningful, personal level. It's like a very polite young person having a debate with a parent - the interaction is absolutely one of respect, but differences of opinion are possible. Not because they are noble but because you believe that they are better. In the end, however, the noble will always win out, unless they are swayed to the commoner's opinion. Because they are better.
Like any hierarchical system, respect is of great concern. Not just upward-caste respect, but inter-caste respect also. Its important to note that respect does not always mean deference, though it can. What I mean by this is - if you are a no-name grebber, you need to show respect to those who are your betters, even in the Commoner caste. This shows that you are one of the 'in-crowd' - someone that can be counted on to perceive social status correctly, interpret it, and elicit the proper response. Being a part of this 'in-crowd' is how you gain entry to plots in Tuluk, because the LAST thing your plot-giver wants is to be embarrassed by someone who makes a social faux pas, lowering their own social status.
Isolationism:Tuluk, much more than Allanak (that I remember), is able to foster an 'us against them' mentality. If you consider that Tuluk is made up of a series of urbanized tribes, this makes more sense. Traditions are guarded jealously, followed without question. Outsiders are distrusted - though not openly. To get over this distrust requires a pseudo relationship - the partisan system. The commoner isn't sure that the noble can represent his interests, but the noble convinces him that he will represent his concerns fairly. The noble isn't sure that the commoner can provide the support that the noble needs, but they agree to 'feel each other out'. The partisan system is too often used as a supplement to House employees, I believe - its not being used (as I feel it should) to evaluate the level of trust between two parties.
Friends and enemies:The politeness of Tuluk is often mistaken for everyone getting along. True, this sometimes happens, but Tuluk is a place where the old adage, "keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer" holds true. Remember that, with tribal roots, Tuluki society fears and distrusts outsiders. Outsiders being other Houses, sometimes the Templarate, sometimes unaffiliated commoners. Because of this innate distrust of motive, no word or action is taken at face value. This is the root of the 'subtlety' that everyone talks about in Tuluk. It's not being about being subtle.
Imagine you are sitting across from someone that you believe may or may not be an enemy. They may or may not want to cast you down, destroy all your careful planning, and take your assets for their own. They are an outsider - not from your House, and an unknown quantity. You're unsure of their strength, and their own position on matters. Your task, then, is to give away as little as possible while gaining as much as possible. How do you do this? That is what people commonly refer to as 'Tuluki subtlety'. Its not actually subtlety at all - its attempting to outwit someone you believe may have designs on something you consider your own.
Rules:Like most tribal societies, Tuluk has a definite ruleset for formalized rituals for resolving conflict and determining station. This is the fabric of Tuluki society - the caste system, the power base, and the rules of ritualized combat. Combat is Tuluk is played out in assassinations and thievery, in slander and rumor. Because these stringent rules affect the strong hierarchy so much, they MUST be followed in public. In Tuluk, the way to KEEP face is to make every appearance of following every rule (this is mostly for Chosen and above) and having absolute faith in the Sun King. Having said that the way to GAIN face is to USE those rules to your advantage - circumventing them where you can to accomplish your goals.
For instance - instead of assassinating someone in the city, which requires a license, have it done outside the city by a third party. Instead of responding to an insult, appear to be above it while having a bard compose a song to your steadfast courage, and how you are often unfairly wronged because of how much you care about the common people. The point of the rules of Tuluk is not to prevent you from doing what you want - its to force creativity in working around the rules to accomplish it without anyone being able to prove you did it.
Implicit rank versus explicit rank:Unlike Allanak, the way to spot a power player in Tuluk is when they appear to have less rank than they actually do. Generally, the highest ranking individuals in an interaction will make some attempt to lower themselves to the lower ranking individual's station - because it is not necessary to explicitly state one's rank. It is understood by the lower ranking person that the upper is still above them, only making a gesture of rapport generation. The easiest way to slight someone in Tuluk is to equate your social standing with them while it is not actually so if you're of lower rank, or if you're of upper rank, to not make some kind of friendly gesture towards the lower ranking individual to know that its acceptable for them to talk to you. Basically, a snub.
Brutality:The last thing that makes a Tuluki Tuluki is the idea of brutality. When it is time to strike - strike. Don't hold back. Tribal warfare is harsh, short-lived, and decisive. There are no permanent allies, and no permanent friends, either. You use people for your own gain, except those that are in your House or tribe.
These are the things that make playing in Tuluk different for people, in my opinion. It took me well over a year to understand some of the above - and I still get it wrong, sometimes.
Now... what are Tuluki characters LIKE?
Those characters that have a distinctly Tuluki feel, rather than a generic feel, I feel have the following properties:
Traditions: Tuluki characters are strongly rooted in tradition, culture and family. I don't mean culture like the Poet's Circle necessarily - I mean having their own distinct words, phrases, and ideas that reflect their tribal past. There are differing degrees of this. You can play someone who is completely urbane who disdains these traditions (but will still recognise that they have them) or you can go the complete opposite, to someone whom the guards will barely let into the gates.
Faith: Unlike Allanak, Tuluk's people are generally well-disposed towards the Sun King and the Templarate in general. Faith and devotion run rampant not because of fear, but of love, desire and trust. People honestly, deeply believe that Templars are better than they are. Chosen are better than they are. That the Sun King is wise, and nearly all-knowing, and that he is a benevolent figure in people's lives. This gives Tuluki characters a completely different feel from Allanaki ones.
Fear: Because of its tribal roots, characters have a fear of being not a part of the group. People want to be included (note that this contrasts the isolationism of Tuluk, we're talking about on a character-level here) and they want to be seen as worth something. Many of the best characters I've seen were motivated by fear of being cast out, and let that social peer pressure get them into a lot of situations.
There's more than this, but man I'm tired. These are only my thoughts and what my past experience has shown me to be true most of the time. I see roleplay in Tuluk as challenging and rewarding, especially from the social perspective, once you finally 'get it', and completely different from Allanak.
Overall, I think this post is excellent. I do disagree somewhat with this section?
Quote from: helix on September 25, 2008, 06:34:44 AMFaith: Unlike Allanak, Tuluk's people are generally well-disposed towards the Sun King and the Templarate in general. Faith and devotion run rampant not because of fear, but of love, desire and trust. People honestly, deeply believe that Templars are better than they are. Chosen are better than they are. That the Sun King is wise, and nearly all-knowing, and that he is a benevolent figure in people's lives. This gives Tuluki characters a completely different feel from Allanaki ones.
I think the portrayal of Allanaki faith is a little misleading. Many Allanakis
do love their Highlord, though they often fear him as well. They also believe (or, at least, should believe) that Templars are simply inherently better than they are.
Your post has convinced me that my next character needs to be in Tuluk, though. I've never had a Tuluki who lived long enough for my tastes, so I feel like I never gave it a fair shake, even though I've always loved the concept of Tuluk.
This reminds me of bits I've read about Japanese culture, especially in business. The man doing the talking is not the boss.
Quote from: helix on September 25, 2008, 06:34:44 AM
Faith: Unlike Allanak, Tuluk's people are generally well-disposed towards the Sun King and the Templarate in general. Faith and devotion run rampant not because of fear, but of love, desire and trust. People honestly, deeply believe that Templars are better than they are. Chosen are better than they are. That the Sun King is wise, and nearly all-knowing, and that he is a benevolent figure in people's lives. This gives Tuluki characters a completely different feel from Allanaki ones.
I personally think the faith comes largely from a greater emphasis on the application of the law. Everyone has their place, everyone has their limits, and if anyone does push them, the Faithful, the hand of Muk Utep, comes down on them hard. This goes for the Chosen as much as any commoner.
That, in my mind, is why Tuluki enjoy, "subtlety." It's when you uphold the law, both from the Faithful and the more vague social conventions, and still manage to get your way that you gain respect.
Hmmm. I don't really disagree with most of what you've put here, helix, but...well...I have a slightly different perspective.
About tribalism: Yes, Tuluk's roots are "tribal." (Technically, so are Allanak's.) But for most people in Tuluk, and most of the noble houses, that heritage goes back over 1000 years. So, IMO, tribalism is not the single most influential force in Tuluk that shapes everything.
What else is shaping Tuluk? In a word: History. Especially recent history. Examples:
-- The caste system - Was born out of the Allanaki occupation, which still is within memory for some NPCs/VNPCs/PCs. The semi-permeable boundaries you see did -not- exist before Allanak occupied Tuluk, and the nobles had to go into hiding and be sheltered by the commoners. Prior to the occupation, it's my understanding that the attitudes of Tuluki nobility and roleplay thereof were much more similar to Allanak. The mutual respect and dependence between noble and commoner in Tuluk therefore is NOT based on tribalism, but actually on very recent history.
-- The patronage system - Has nothing to do with tribalism. It also is a product of the Allanaki occupation. Patronage rose up afterward as a method of representing the loose filial bonds between nobles and commoners which occurred during the occupation. Patronage is (at least in part) a representation of the commoner's interests, by the noble; a statement from the noble to the partisan and others that "I've got this one's back."
-- Subtlety - I do very much disagree with your take on Tuluki subtlety. It really IS about being subtle. This is another tradition that is a direct result of the Allanaki occupation; when Allanak was in town, it was vital to the survival of the oppressed Tulukis (and vital to the survival of the Rebellion) that Tulukis be able to communicate with one another in ways that the Nakkis couldn't detect, AND Tulukis had to learn to hold their tongues enough to not get deaded by the Nakkis. Subtlety was a method of subversion and rebellion, a way to strike at the enemy in unpunishable ways, and that is what it still is.
What I don't see in Tuluk, nearly often enough, is nobles and templars and bards being the absolute exemplars of subtlety that they should be. Nobles should be sitting in the Sanc insulting each other (maybe truly insulting, perhaps just jesting) so that other players can overhear and get clued in. Bards should be performing subtly derisive works aimed at targets within current Tuluki society, but I think I'm the only bard player I've ever seen do this.
-- Rules and Traditions - Aren't for working around, they're for working with. Killing someone outside city walls isn't very artful, IMO, and I don't think your typical Tuluki would think it is either. Yeah, you can get away with it more easily, but where's the glory and status in that? Status comes from pulling off an artful deed, having everyone know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you did it, and yet having guilt be unprovable. Status doesn't come from merely getting the job done. Rules in Tuluk are certainly "tribal" in origin, insofar as Tuluk is just an extremely tradition-minded society. Tradition is good. Non-tradition is bad. Therefore the rules are good, because they are tradition. Therefore circumventing them IS bad.
-- Competence and hard work - Another effect of the Nakki occupation was, as it pushed Tuluk toward the brink of extinction, to inspire in the populace a very serious understanding that everyone, EVERYONE, had to pull their weight. This included templars and nobles; gone was the idea that nobles could sit around and be useless. While in hiding in the shelter of the commoners, the nobles learned to hunt and work with their hands, and many have kept up these pursuits since the liberation. Nobles are also very often schooled at Poets' Circle, so they are well-versed in Tuluki society overall, and have spent a lot of time hanging out with commoners. They are comfortable with commoners. (Mostly. I've met NPC nobles who definitely weren't, heh.) Additionally, all the noble houses have some kind of real, solid work that they do for the city--above and beyond governorship of qynar. This is totally unlike Allanak--there are no "party" houses in Tuluk, everyone is doing real work.
-- Faith - Yeah, I think a lot of Tulukis have it, and I've always played my Tulukis at least mostly that way. Minimally, on the surface, Tulukis should be professing faith to some extent. (Though the pressure to be "more faithful than thou" always kind of rankles me.) Though, analytically speaking, I'm not sure that faith is THE motivating factor for most Tulukis. Disappearances are not unheard of, and templars are freakin' scary. Fear is also a huge factor. Fear is not simply about not being part of the group, it's about wrong thinking and wrong doing, which everyone knows DO lead to disappearances. (Also, I have to chime in for Allanak. There are plenty of Highlord-lovin' Nakkis, too. Playing it either way in either city is A-OK.)
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 25, 2008, 01:35:59 PM
(Also, I have to chime in for Allanak. There are plenty of Highlord-lovin' Nakkis, too.
And (derailing! sorry!) sometimes for very good, practical reasons. It's not just superstition, and I suppose this is true for Northies, too.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on September 25, 2008, 01:50:13 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 25, 2008, 01:35:59 PM
(Also, I have to chime in for Allanak. There are plenty of Highlord-lovin' Nakkis, too.
And (derailing! sorry!) sometimes for very good, practical reasons. It's not just superstition, and I suppose this is true for Northies, too.
In my experience, it's really important for templar PCs to inspire the faith/fear that's appropriate for the culture. Both north and south. They should do it differently, with the style that's right for their city, but they should be doing it. (And no, I don't mean just by saying "Walk in His light/shadow." * That ain't enough.)
I was fortunate enough to have awesome interactions with a well-played Tuluki Lirathan on my first Tuluki PC, and a well-played Nakki blue robe on my first real Allanaki PC, that really showed me how faith/fear interplay and can be done in those locations.
* "Walk in His shadow," IMO, has a wonderful implication both of protection and threat. Shadow is shade, protection from the heat, but also implies that Tek is looming over you and ready to stomp you if needed. "Walk in His light" has similar connotations: Light is illuminating and helpful, and yet when you're in the light, they can -see- you...and everything you're doing wrong. Thus, both faith and fear, in both cities.
Edited to add: The above is why I don't really like "Walk in His radiance" so much as a greeting/parting in Tuluk. Radiance doesn't have the same faith/fear factor, to me. It just sounds pretty unambivalently beneficial.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 25, 2008, 01:35:59 PM
About tribalism: Yes, Tuluk's roots are "tribal." (Technically, so are Allanak's.) But for most people in Tuluk, and most of the noble houses, that heritage goes back over 1000 years. So, IMO, tribalism is not the single most influential force in Tuluk that shapes everything.
It isn't, that's correct. But its still a large part of it - but its a large part of Tuluk's general flavor and traditions. Its also a part that, in my opinion, doesn't get touched on very often.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 25, 2008, 01:35:59 PM
-- The caste system - Was born out of the Allanaki occupation, which still is within memory for some NPCs/VNPCs/PCs. The semi-permeable boundaries you see did -not- exist before Allanak occupied Tuluk, and the nobles had to go into hiding and be sheltered by the commoners. Prior to the occupation, it's my understanding that the attitudes of Tuluki nobility and roleplay thereof were much more similar to Allanak. The mutual respect and dependence between noble and commoner in Tuluk therefore is NOT based on tribalism, but actually on very recent history.
That, unfortunately, is before my time and there's not really any place where things like that are recorded - except for long-time players, that information becomes lost rather easily. But, I didn't mean to imply that tribalism was the root of the caste system, my point was simply how tribalism could enhance it.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 25, 2008, 01:35:59 PM
-- The patronage system - Has nothing to do with tribalism. It also is a product of the Allanaki occupation. Patronage rose up afterward as a method of representing the loose filial bonds between nobles and commoners which occurred during the occupation. Patronage is (at least in part) a representation of the commoner's interests, by the noble; a statement from the noble to the partisan and others that "I've got this one's back."
Again - I'm not pointing to it and saying its roots are a thousand years old. I'm saying, essentially, that a lot of Tulukis are an insular and paranoid lot - why? Distrust of outsiders. I understand how it came about and how it was developed, but I see it being used in-game as more of an extension of House employees rather than the representational process or the feeling out process that it was meant to be. A partisan relationship isn't nearly so rigid as its sometimes represented in-game. Its both a feeling out process and a measure to gain trust - on both parts of the equation. I'm not trying to say (in any of this stuff) where it comes from, only what its actually used for.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 25, 2008, 01:35:59 PM
-- Subtlety - I do very much disagree with your take on Tuluki subtlety. It really IS about being subtle. This is another tradition that is a direct result of the Allanaki occupation; when Allanak was in town, it was vital to the survival of the oppressed Tulukis (and vital to the survival of the Rebellion) that Tulukis be able to communicate with one another in ways that the Nakkis couldn't detect, AND Tulukis had to learn to hold their tongues enough to not get deaded by the Nakkis. Subtlety was a method of subversion and rebellion, a way to strike at the enemy in unpunishable ways, and that is what it still is.
"Imagine you are sitting across from someone that you believe may or may not be an enemy. They may or may not want to cast you down, destroy all your careful planning, and take your assets for their own. They are an outsider - not from your House, and an unknown quantity. You're unsure of their strength, and their own position on matters. Your task, then, is to give away as little as possible while gaining as much as possible. How do you do this? That is what people commonly refer to as 'Tuluki subtlety'. Its not actually subtlety at all - its attempting to outwit someone you believe may have designs on something you consider your own."
You said, essentially, what I said - except you based it in the occupation. Its not enough to say, "Tulukis are subtle." How? Why? How Much? What are their thought processes? Too much of Tuluk's culture is - and I don't mean this in a bad way - in older player's minds, and not somewhere on paper.
The difference is - I've no idea how Tuluk was before the occupation (as, again, these things aren't recorded anywhere) so I'd assumed the subtlety had always been there. If it wasn't, then I retract the statement about why its there - but the fact that it is there still remains, and I think the thought process is still the same.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 25, 2008, 01:35:59 PM
-- Rules and Traditions - Aren't for working around, they're for working with. Killing someone outside city walls isn't very artful, IMO, and I don't think your typical Tuluki would think it is either. Yeah, you can get away with it more easily, but where's the glory and status in that? Status comes from pulling off an artful deed, having everyone know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you did it, and yet having guilt be unprovable. Status doesn't come from merely getting the job done. Rules in Tuluk are certainly "tribal" in origin, insofar as Tuluk is just an extremely tradition-minded society. Tradition is good. Non-tradition is bad. Therefore the rules are good, because they are tradition. Therefore circumventing them IS bad.
On this... I think we'll just have to disagree. Brytta brought up Japan - that's really a very good comparison. Rules are in-place to keep the Commoners in line. The Chosen's quickest way to increase face is to show that they understand the letter of the rules, and can act within and around them where necessary. That is what makes an 'artful' move. You do something that may be 'against' the rules, but you do it in such a way that you are following the rules without question. That is 'artful' - not hiring someone to kill some guy in an apartment with terradin.
Quote from: helix on September 25, 2008, 02:14:52 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 25, 2008, 01:35:59 PM
About tribalism: Yes, Tuluk's roots are "tribal." (Technically, so are Allanak's.) But for most people in Tuluk, and most of the noble houses, that heritage goes back over 1000 years. So, IMO, tribalism is not the single most influential force in Tuluk that shapes everything.
It isn't, that's correct. But its still a large part of it - but its a large part of Tuluk's general flavor and traditions. Its also a part that, in my opinion, doesn't get touched on very often.
I agree with you on that. Tribalism is something that could stand to be represented better within Tuluk, by those who are actually Tuluki citizens...rather than merely by characters who've taken the nomad subguild for its benefits and yet claim no true affiliation to the city. (I'm really somewhat sick of seeing "tribal lites" in Tuluk.)
Quote from: helix on September 25, 2008, 02:14:52 PMQuote from: Gimfalisette on September 25, 2008, 01:35:59 PM
-- The caste system - Was born out of the Allanaki occupation, which still is within memory for some NPCs/VNPCs/PCs. The semi-permeable boundaries you see did -not- exist before Allanak occupied Tuluk, and the nobles had to go into hiding and be sheltered by the commoners. Prior to the occupation, it's my understanding that the attitudes of Tuluki nobility and roleplay thereof were much more similar to Allanak. The mutual respect and dependence between noble and commoner in Tuluk therefore is NOT based on tribalism, but actually on very recent history.
That, unfortunately, is before my time and there's not really any place where things like that are recorded - except for long-time players, that information becomes lost rather easily. But, I didn't mean to imply that tribalism was the root of the caste system, my point was simply how tribalism could enhance it.
I'm not really a long-time player. (I think I've only been playing a little longer than you have.) I didn't play in old Tuluk either. I -think- that I learned this stuff either through the docs, or through marko's many wonderful posts on Tuluk. If you haven't read all his posts, go search for them and read up. Marko taught me so much, both through his posts and through roleplaying with him.
Quote from: helix on September 25, 2008, 02:14:52 PMQuote from: Gimfalisette on September 25, 2008, 01:35:59 PM
-- The patronage system - Has nothing to do with tribalism. It also is a product of the Allanaki occupation. Patronage rose up afterward as a method of representing the loose filial bonds between nobles and commoners which occurred during the occupation. Patronage is (at least in part) a representation of the commoner's interests, by the noble; a statement from the noble to the partisan and others that "I've got this one's back."
I see it being used in-game as more of an extension of House employees rather than the representational process or the feeling out process that it was meant to be. A partisan relationship isn't nearly so rigid as its sometimes represented in-game. Its both a feeling out process and a measure to gain trust - on both parts of the equation. I'm not trying to say (in any of this stuff) where it comes from, only what its actually used for.
Yeah, I agree with you there. Partisans aren't employees, they're indies with extra status and clout due to their relationship to the noble. It should be much more fluid than it's usually played.
An additional note is that I really hate to see bards of the Circle take on actual employment with houses, either noble or GMH. Bards should be anti-rigidity, IMO. They should consider taking a "job" that's not barding to be -beneath- them, because they are bards. Yeah, that makes it a little tougher to scrape together rent money, and there's no free food or water...but that's a good thing. That means bards have to learn to survive by BARDING.
Quote from: helix on September 25, 2008, 02:14:52 PMQuote from: Gimfalisette on September 25, 2008, 01:35:59 PM
-- Subtlety - I do very much disagree with your take on Tuluki subtlety. It really IS about being subtle. This is another tradition that is a direct result of the Allanaki occupation; when Allanak was in town, it was vital to the survival of the oppressed Tulukis (and vital to the survival of the Rebellion) that Tulukis be able to communicate with one another in ways that the Nakkis couldn't detect, AND Tulukis had to learn to hold their tongues enough to not get deaded by the Nakkis. Subtlety was a method of subversion and rebellion, a way to strike at the enemy in unpunishable ways, and that is what it still is.
You said, essentially, what I said - except you based it in the occupation. Its not enough to say, "Tulukis are subtle." How? Why? How Much? What are their thought processes? Too much of Tuluk's culture is - and I don't mean this in a bad way - in older player's minds, and not somewhere on paper.
The difference is - I've no idea how Tuluk was before the occupation (as, again, these things aren't recorded anywhere) so I'd assumed the subtlety had always been there. If it wasn't, then I retract the statement about why its there - but the fact that it is there still remains, and I think the thought process is still the same.
I'm very certain subtlety is an outgrowth of recent history.
So let's talk about subtlety and the why, how, when, etc.
Why? Subtlety has a few potential goals: 1. Insult your enemies without them knowing it or, minimally, being able to accuse you of doing it. It's a form of stress relief and combat. 2. Raise your own status by accomplishing this; it's like counting coup on an enemy. When you succeed, it's a victory. 3. Communicate to your allies without being detected or accused by the enemy. Sometimes this is to transfer information, sometimes you're just wanting them to notice you're counting coup.
How? Subtlety takes many potential forms. Verbal subtlety - wit, insults, adages, riddles, songs, poems. Physical subtlety - Communicating through gesture or touch or look. Political subtlety - the art of bribery, the art of meetings, the art of using minions for various purposes, the art of the deal.
How Much? There's a time and place to be subtle, and a time and place to be unsubtle. Sometimes the person you're trying to communicate too just doesn't get it, and you might need to be a little more blatant. Or, talking to an ally or making a deal behind closed doors, dropping the subtle is good there too, and often very appreciated. Subtlety should ALWAYS be present in public situations, simply because it's the true dance of Tuluk. It's fun, it's entertaining, it's good RP when it's done well. It's a game.
Thought Process? Tulukis are paranoid and fearful underneath it all. It's important not to show your true hand, or the strength of it. Subtlety is a cover, an approach method, a way of testing, a way of mastery, a way of victory. In essence, it's a guerilla tactic descended from the Rebellion.
If you'd like, I'll try to dream up some examples of subtlety and not-subtlety. I'm not sure if my explanations are really hanging together well, but subtlety is one of those things that I know it when I see it ;)
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 25, 2008, 02:39:13 PM
If you'd like, I'll try to dream up some examples of subtlety and not-subtlety. I'm not sure if my explanations are really hanging together well, but subtlety is one of those things that I know it when I see it ;)
I
don't see what you did there.
Quote from: Nyr on September 25, 2008, 02:51:21 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 25, 2008, 02:39:13 PM
If you'd like, I'll try to dream up some examples of subtlety and not-subtlety. I'm not sure if my explanations are really hanging together well, but subtlety is one of those things that I know it when I see it ;)
I don't see what you did there.
Ha! Subtlety in Tuluk? I never noticed any!
It seems to call for a lot of use of the 'think' command and conspiring to arrange public affairs to turn out in a particular way, which I'm all for. Carefully controlled public image is kind of fun, as contrasted to southern nobility's displays of untouchable power.
I love conspiring.
The hunched, hairy manservant says in northern accented sirihish "M'lord, I have a cunning plan."
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 25, 2008, 01:35:59 PM
-- Subtlety - I do very much disagree with your take on Tuluki subtlety. It really IS about being subtle. This is another tradition that is a direct result of the Allanaki occupation; when Allanak was in town, it was vital to the survival of the oppressed Tulukis (and vital to the survival of the Rebellion) that Tulukis be able to communicate with one another in ways that the Nakkis couldn't detect, AND Tulukis had to learn to hold their tongues enough to not get deaded by the Nakkis. Subtlety was a method of subversion and rebellion, a way to strike at the enemy in unpunishable ways, and that is what it still is.
THIS, OH GOOD GOD THIS!!!
Quote from: staggerlee on September 25, 2008, 03:01:00 PM
Ha! Subtlety in Tuluk? I never noticed any!
I've seen it. Recently, even. There are some issues, though.
--
When whoever you're being subtle at just doesn't get it, the subtlety fails. Not due to lack of skill on the subtle player's part, but due to lack of skill or simple documentary knowledge on the receiver's part. I've seen this happen twice within the last week. It behooves every noble, templar, and bard in Tuluk to read, re-read, and read again the documentation, and posts on this forum, until they can live and breathe it. Every system grokked fully. If you can't tell me the meaning of a Tuluki caste or status tattoo off the top of your head, you fail. Got it?
--
People are afraid of trying the subtle. Maybe it will fail. But maybe it won't! Please please please do just try more often. We all need the practice.
--
At its most basic, subtlety is just subtext. If an additional meaning can be read in your words, you've succeeded. Don't make subtlety out to be more complicated than it really is.
Fictitious ExamplesTo a bard, after they play a song you think sucks: "Such delicate, uncalloused hands you have. Why, it's almost like you've never touched an instrument at all."
To a noble peer you think is a fool: "Your mind is delightful, Amos, unfettered as it is by the burden of age."
How to woo a Tuluki girl: She admires a rival's pretty jewelry. You somehow get the rival disappeared, and bribe a templar to give you the jewelry. Give jewelry to girl, get girl.
How to bribe a Tuluki templar: Get a pretty box. Inside the box put some item that would be of particular interest to that particular templar--maybe they have a stamp collection and you found a rare one for them. Also inside the box is a nice fat sack of coins. Present the gift as "a token of appreciation for all your service." You're so smooth, you get status-props from everyone.
I could kind of go on and on, but I don't want to spill all my best sekrets ;)
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 25, 2008, 03:22:50 PM
Quote from: staggerlee on September 25, 2008, 03:01:00 PM
Ha! Subtlety in Tuluk? I never noticed any!
I've seen it. Recently, even. There are some issues, though.
*cough* Think about that one again, without taking it at face value. ::)
I'm sure there is some amount of subtlety and politicking going on.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 25, 2008, 03:22:50 PM
-- When whoever you're being subtle at just doesn't get it, the subtlety fails.
I guess I'm still rusty.
Quote from: staggerlee on September 25, 2008, 03:27:15 PM
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 25, 2008, 03:22:50 PM
Quote from: staggerlee on September 25, 2008, 03:01:00 PM
Ha! Subtlety in Tuluk? I never noticed any!
I've seen it. Recently, even. There are some issues, though.
*cough* Think about that one again, without taking it at face value. ::)
I'm sure there is some amount of subtlety and politicking going on.
I'm an idiot :-[
Honestly, I don't think I'm all that good at subtlety. But I do try.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 25, 2008, 03:28:19 PM
Honestly, I don't think I'm all that good at subtlety. But I do try.
Sorry I was being a smartass, that didn't contribute much. :)
The examples look pretty sharp. It's hard to put into practice than it is on paper, and it's like playing a pc with a higher wisdom than you. Nobles in Tuluk would be trained in birth for these things, and we're just poor imitators trying to play the part. I know it'd take me a whole lot of practice to get it down.
Another tip on how to play subtlety: Don't expect to be able to do it off-the-cuff, necessarily. When I'm playing in Tuluk, I actually think ahead of time about how I might insult so-and-so the next time I see them. And of course, if I'm playing a bard and a performance is demanded which will have some kind of political text/subtext to it, I put a LOT of time in beforehand crafting it.
So yeah, it takes practice and preparation to do it decently. (For me at least. I think marko was born subtle, the jerk :( )
If subtlety involves inside jokes, the "behoovement" of every player who does the GAME a FAVOR by taking on a difficult role to memorize a few dozen docs, and being able to manipulate plots that no one who "isn't in on it" never gets to see, then I retract my previous high opinion of Tuluk. In addition, I find it amusing that Gimf has issues with "tribal lites" in Tuluk.
Edited to add: Fortunately, I don't believe for one second that subtlety is all about all that, and I still have a high opinion of Tuluk. Though the whole "tribal lite" thing still gives me a tickle.
I be nay e'en tryin' t' understand Tuluk anymore, looks like only Gimfalisette an' this so called "Marko" guy knows how t' do 't right :P
And, yah, tribal lites? Screw you too.
By "tribal lites" I mean people who take the nomad subguild, aren't part of a coded tribe and/or haven't done any background for themselves as tribals, and aren't Tuluki citizens. The ones who, when you ask them what tribe they're from, they stare at you blankly, and it's clear they haven't really thought about the role. I've seen dozens of this type in Tuluk during my course of play there.
Misinterpret much, guys?
Quote from: Lizzie on September 25, 2008, 03:49:05 PM
If subtlety involves inside jokes, the "behoovement" of every player who does the GAME a FAVOR by taking on a difficult role to memorize a few dozen docs, and being able to manipulate plots that no one who "isn't in on it" never gets to see, then I retract my previous high opinion of Tuluk.
Part of playing a sponsored role in any clan is actually working on embodying that role within the game. Yes, it's hard, but that's why the roles are sponsored roles.
And I have no clue where you're getting this idea about inside jokes.
Actually I find your whole tone offensive and unnecessary.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 25, 2008, 03:55:35 PM
By "tribal lites" I mean people who take the nomad subguild, aren't part of a coded tribe and/or haven't done any background for themselves as tribals, and aren't Tuluki citizens. The ones who, when you ask them what tribe they're from, they stare at you blankly, and it's clear they haven't really thought about the role. I've seen dozens of this type in Tuluk during my course of play there.
Creatin' a "virtual" tribe an' havin' t' explain 't t' every sea dogs an' land lubbers ye meet an' answer a chestfull o' questions about 't brings a lot more headaches an' pains than jus' answerin', "I be from so an' so, they's all dead, now."
I don't blame 'em wi' th' nomad subguild if they don't want t' spend an hour havin' t' explain the'r virtual non-existant an' non-coded tribe t' swabbies who always get a kick at embarassin' an' shamin' players on accoun' o' they haven't
spent hours devlopin' a virtual tribe an' family.
Arr.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 25, 2008, 03:55:35 PM
And I have no clue where you're getting this idea about inside jokes.
It looks like confusion between secretive, exclusive, scheming ic groups and some kind of ooc exclusiveness. But I don't want to misrepresent her argument.
Behooved sure is a great word though. ;)
I've seen some really awesome play from Tulukis lately.
Hey, I've missed threads like this! Good post, even if I don't necessarily agree with all of it.
Quote from: helix on September 25, 2008, 06:34:44 AM
Isolationism:Tuluk, much more than Allanak (that I remember), is able to foster an 'us against them' mentality. If you consider that Tuluk is made up of a series of urbanized tribes, this makes more sense. Traditions are guarded jealously, followed without question. Outsiders are distrusted - though not openly.
My experience has been that Tuluk has been a more open and welcoming society than Allanak. In Allanaki, racism and prejudice is everywhere, it is overt, and it smacks you straight in the face or knives you in the guts. Rinthers, breeds, elves, dwarves, northerners, Kuraci, gypsies, and even human tribals get ostracized everywhere. Most of the noble houses won't hire any of them, the few that do are usually special exceptions. Tuluk isn't completely free of racism or prejudice, but I noticed a lot less of it when I played there.
QuoteImplicit rank versus explicit rank:Unlike Allanak, the way to spot a power player in Tuluk is when they appear to have less rank than they actually do. Generally, the highest ranking individuals in an interaction will make some attempt to lower themselves to the lower ranking individual's station - because it is not necessary to explicitly state one's rank. It is understood by the lower ranking person that the upper is still above them, only making a gesture of rapport generation. The easiest way to slight someone in Tuluk is to equate your social standing with them while it is not actually so if you're of lower rank, or if you're of upper rank, to not make some kind of friendly gesture towards the lower ranking individual to know that its acceptable for them to talk to you. Basically, a snub.
Very true. Notice the ranks of the templars in Allanak are much easier to tell than in Tuluk -- in fact I couldn't tell you what the differences between a normal Lirathan and a High Templar Lirathan and a Precentor's uniforms are, despite having played in Tuluk for a long time with one of my characters. Nobles in Tuluk are also lots less overt about their rank and position and duties. I'm sure influential bards and commoners would all emulate this too.
QuoteFaith: Unlike Allanak, Tuluk's people are generally well-disposed towards the Sun King and the Templarate in general. Faith and devotion run rampant not because of fear, but of love, desire and trust. People honestly, deeply believe that Templars are better than they are. Chosen are better than they are. That the Sun King is wise, and nearly all-knowing, and that he is a benevolent figure in people's lives. This gives Tuluki characters a completely different feel from Allanaki ones.
Strongly disagree. Being faithful and trusting of Tektolnes is entirely possible and common in Allanak. I also think it's just as common and acceptable to play a Tuluki and be terrified of Muk Utep, believing him a tyrant sorcerer king, and be terrified of Tuluki Faithful, too. In both cities, believing that the nobility are better than you is a given.
So out of curiosity I went back to read some of Marko's posts.
This one in particular I thought could stand to be repeated:
Quote from: marko on August 11, 2006, 01:44:29 PM
Quote from: jcarterMy problem with Tuluk is that there's an idea there where everyone has to be refined, clean, and socially graceful. Lower class just isn't in the vocabulary up there. If you play a rough and tumble, dirty, and gruff character, it's like you're out of place.
I'm not sure if this is still the case. I've met a variety of characters in Tuluk who weren't refined or clean and they fit Tuluk's theme perfectly. I think the "need" to do the refined and polite thing is the first response people have towards Tuluk's culture and then, as it is explored they realize they can still be a "gritty" (just had to use that term) hunter type who is fairly rough and tumble and gruff and still fit the environment.
I'd put this as part of the growth cycle for Tuluk.
Course, I should probably add that rough and tumble does not mean pulling weapons out in public, threatening people in public, or attacking others in public - those are all very much against the law and there are other mechanisms in Tuluk for handling being upset with someone. Specifically assassination or using thieves. Also, note the public aspect - in private... that's a whole other ballgame.
And a thread on patronage for those who haven't seen it yet, I think patronage needs more lovin' from the players:
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,22298.msg236210.html#msg236210
I would actually think that things like fashion would become more important in Tuluk. And by fashion I do not mean everyone dressing in silks, or even refer exclusively to clothing.
For example if someone digs clay for a living, then they might dress in clean, nice clothing to go out to the bar and speak as properly as they're able. However, it would be rather gauche for them to wear silks and try to speak like and act like a noble.
Being polite and careful socially isn't necessarily the same as always being nice or sneaky. It's also about knowing your place, and acting appropriately to your social role. You can still sit around and laugh with the boys and slap each other on the back telling rude jokes, but do it in the appropriate social setting. Likewise, wearing silks from head to toe when you're a forager might seem like it's tacky and in poor taste.
But maybe somebody that knows Tuluk better than I am can tell me if I'm off base here.
Quote from: staggerlee on September 25, 2008, 05:58:34 PM
I would actually think that things like fashion would become more important in Tuluk. And by fashion I do not mean everyone dressing in silks, or even refer exclusively to clothing.
Fashion is important in Tuluk, but it's not supposed to be the same aggressive arms-race type thing as Allanak does. Colors are slower to change, the styles themselves are traditional, and the garb is comfortable.
Silk costs only 25% of what it costs in Allanak, due to the fact that all the silk in the Known World -comes- from Tuluk. So silk should be a more common type of material; commoners can wear silk but probably shouldn't wear it head-to-toe, and they should wear simpler styles. Higher-ranking commoners and nobles should wear more fancy styles with lots more floaty layers, more elaborate embroidery, more elaborate lace. The distinction is made in the quality and artfulness of the garment versus simply its material.
Quote from: staggerlee on September 25, 2008, 05:58:34 PMFor example if someone digs clay for a living, then they might dress in clean, nice clothing to go out to the bar and speak as properly as they're able. However, it would be rather gauche for them to wear silks and try to speak like and act like a noble.
I agree with that, but I don't think the important point is to speak "properly." I think the important things to do are: 1. Speak respectfully of authority and your betters, and 2. Avoid taboo topics, such as magick, or leering at an upper-caste individual. Other than that, swear away, drop your Ns, tell dirty jokes, talk about sex, get drunk, etc. Be as gritty as you want if you're doing the first two points.
The Sanctuary really IS a "sanctuary"; AFAIK it was built to be a gathering place for everyone in Tuluki society during the Rebellion or...after the destruction of Tuluk or something. It's not Trader's Inn North. It's got a stripper, after all.
And the Tooth--that's where you go if you want to watch non-human stripping ;)
Speaking of sex in Tuluk, you all have looked at the statue that's in the intersection near the Sanc, right? I love that statue so much.
Quote from: staggerlee on September 25, 2008, 05:58:34 PMBeing polite and careful socially isn't necessarily the same as always being nice or sneaky. It's also about knowing your place, and acting appropriately to your social role. You can still sit around and laugh with the boys and slap each other on the back telling rude jokes, but do it in the appropriate social setting.
I pretty much feel like any setting in Tuluk is OK for that kind of thing. If you're telling a joke about Nakki sexual habits, maybe the Chosen wants to hear it too; why not? Maybe if you're in the Sanc, rather than the Tooth, you want what you're saying to be a little more artful or subtle, because the Sanc is really a stage for that kind of thing. But if your character isn't the particularly subtle type, then that's fine too.
Not everyone has to be subtle all the time, or even capable of being so. EXCEPT, for the most part, I really feel like nobles, templars, and bards need to be on the subtle game, as I've said before, because they are the role models for the PC population.
Quote from: ale six on September 25, 2008, 04:46:47 PM
My experience has been that Tuluk has been a more open and welcoming society than Allanak. In Allanaki, racism and prejudice is everywhere, it is overt, and it smacks you straight in the face or knives you in the guts. Rinthers, breeds, elves, dwarves, northerners, Kuraci, gypsies, and even human tribals get ostracized everywhere. Most of the noble houses won't hire any of them, the few that do are usually special exceptions. Tuluk isn't completely free of racism or prejudice, but I noticed a lot less of it when I played there.
Its welcoming in that there's less prejudice, as I think Tuluk is more of a melting pot than Allanak (more sentient beings within arm's reach). It is isolationist in that - while the beings themselves can be welcomed, they are not trusted. Outsiders - anyone not 'from' Tuluk and the general surrounding area - are extremely distrusted. This distrust - like everything else in Tuluk is implicit in interactions, rather than explicit.
Quote from: ale six on September 25, 2008, 04:46:47 PM
Strongly disagree. Being faithful and trusting of Tektolnes is entirely possible and common in Allanak. I also think it's just as common and acceptable to play a Tuluki and be terrified of Muk Utep, believing him a tyrant sorcerer king, and be terrified of Tuluki Faithful, too. In both cities, believing that the nobility are better than you is a given.
I think this is one that I'd rather get a historical note on before I said anything - I don't think many people recognise or consider him as a sorcerer king. And... I've yet to see him portrayed as anything but benevolent to his populace - what he does to his enemies is another matter entirely. But I'd like to know how this has been in the past, and if anyone has any differing experiences on this.
I have found on occasion that it's rather fun to be un-subtle in response to someone else's subtlty.
Not everyone can get away with that. Nor can you get away with it with everyone, as it could be viewed as insulting in return.
There are a lot of complex levels in Tuluki society. It's like one of those flip books that let you choose the top, middle and bottom. Each picture has a set that matches perfectly, but by mixing them around you get interesting (and sometimes hilarious) results.
The docs in several places are pretty clear in their usage of the term sorcerer kings to describe Utep and Tektolnes. Also, in the past (pre-occupation, maybe even pre-destruction of Old Tuluk), Utep's templars used magick. As far as how he's portrayed, that's entirely up to his templarate, but if you live in Tuluk and see the Faithful disappearing people and not telling you why, or live under the 'subtle oppression' they put down, I think you'd have plenty of reason to be afraid.
Quote from: helix on September 25, 2008, 07:05:57 PM
I think this is one that I'd rather get a historical note on before I said anything - I don't think many people recognise or consider him as a sorcerer king. And... I've yet to see him portrayed as anything but benevolent to his populace - what he does to his enemies is another matter entirely. But I'd like to know how this has been in the past, and if anyone has any differing experiences on this.
I don't think it's black-and-white in either Allanak or Tuluk. I think that fear in Allanak (with an undertone of worship) should be the most common attitude, and faith/love in Tuluk (with an undertone of fear) should be the most common attitude there. I would say that these attitudes are supported/reinforced by recent in-game events which the VNPC populace probably would have heard about at least to some extent.
But I also think it's OK to be anywhere on the fear-faith spectrum in either city-state, as long as your character's got a reason. Above is what I think the current norms are.
Quote from: ale six on September 25, 2008, 07:11:59 PM
if you live in Tuluk and see the Faithful disappearing people and not telling you why, or live under the 'subtle oppression' they put down, I think you'd have plenty of reason to be afraid.
I think really all Tulukis should fear the templarate and Muk to some extent. But it's more like fearing your dad; you know he loves you and wants the best for you, but he's not going to hold back on whipping you when you need it. Yes, Muk is benevolent, but only to a point.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 25, 2008, 07:18:37 PM
Quote from: ale six on September 25, 2008, 07:11:59 PM
if you live in Tuluk and see the Faithful disappearing people and not telling you why, or live under the 'subtle oppression' they put down, I think you'd have plenty of reason to be afraid.
I think really all Tulukis should fear the templarate and Muk to some extent. But it's more like fearing your dad; you know he loves you and wants the best for you, but he's not going to hold back on whipping you when you need it. Yes, Muk is benevolent, but only to a point.
Absolutely perfect example.
This whole thread is good; thought-provoking. Most of what I would say has been said, though.
It seems to me that some people learn by reading the docs and other people learn by playing and immersing themselves and then referencing the docs to clarify things. I'm this sort of player. I've also really only played in Allanak. I'm new-ish to the game and I'm still figuring Allanak out but I've begun to feel comfortable in the culture there. For this reason, the idea of playing in Tuluk is really intimidating to me. I learn best by playing and observing, but it seems like Tuluk is a place where I need to learn and memorize a good deal of information before successfully jumping into it.
So - a question to the Tuluk experts. What is a good first role for someone who has never played in Tuluk before? What role/background would allow them to be from Tuluk but yet not simply a "bad player" when they make mistakes about Tuluki culture?
Quote from: garbanzo on September 25, 2008, 07:31:10 PM
So - a question to the Tuluk experts. What is a good first role for someone who has never played in Tuluk before? What role/background would allow them to be from Tuluk but yet not simply a "bad player" when they make mistakes about Tuluki culture?
Amos from the Warrens, who's spent all his time helping his mom make small wood carvings, but of course he's never ventured outside the city himself, there's halflings and other scary stuff out there. But finally Amos decides he really wants to learn something of the world, so he goes to get a job as a hunter with a GMH. Ranger/woodworker. Then spend free time hanging out at the Sanc and the Tooth and learning stuff. Maybe trade with a bard of the Circle to get etiquette lessons in return for something you might be able to provide with your skills. Voila...you'll be Tuluk-knowledgeable within a couple RL months.
Or...warrior/something and join the Legions, after leaving the Warrens.
P.S. Everyone makes mistakes in Tuluk at first. EVERYONE. It is OK.
My noob mistakes in Tuluk included:
-- Fainting from use of the Way in front of two separate PC templars on the same RL day.
-- Insulting a Kadian agent (higher social status than my PC) by making him wait for a meeting.
-- Taking the wrong patron in a time of war and making my PC look like she was disloyal to Tuluk.
-- Unintentional, well-meaning abuse of the rumor board.
And more I can't even think of right now.
Then later my character died to an NPC mob while I was hunting. See? All those mistakes, and most characters in Tuluk still die to dumbass hunting accidents :)
I wouldn't worry too much about it garbanzo. You don't need to memorize a lot of stuff. It helps I guess, but it isn't necessary. It's pretty common to start playing in Tuluk as someone from the Warrens. The Warrens is the section of the city containing mostly poor people, "working-class" commoners, and similar. Some may be families who have one or more members serving a noble house (the gardener's mate and their kids, the cleaning lady's son and his mate, etc), some of them have grown up there and live there and rarely ever leave, and make their earnings scrapping (or grebbing as it's called in Arm) for their meager living. And everything inbetween.
The warrens is south of the "main" part of the city, as shown on help map tuluk in game, or in the help files. Your character would have a general idea of what's outside the warrens, and would definitely be familiar with the Tembo's Tooth, which is a Kurac-run bar at the northernmost edge.
There's some "what your character would know" on the main website, the search engine built in to the main page will give you a lot of links to things about Tuluk. The only things I would really REALLY urge...is for you to learn about the caste tattooes - make sure you add yours while you're in the Hall of Kings, in their appropriate body locations...
and keep your browser open so you can tab to the help files instead of having to deal with in-game help files scrolling your screen while a templar is waiting for you to explain why you are standing in his way :)
This thread makes me want to give Tuluk a good solid chance with a long lived PC.
Brandon
Those of you thinking about giving Tuluk a real try, I have a little warning. This is what I found, your mileage may vary. Coming up from playing Nakis and Kuracis, I found I hated Tuluk at first. My first couple of weeks I rolled my eyes and sniffed indignantly and vowed that everything I read on the boards was true.
My point isn't that Tuluk's charm is elusive and you need to be super smart and dedicated to find it. I'm saying that can be elusive, and you don't want to give up on it too quick, if you don't get sucked in immediately.
It's also very likely you will be sucked in immediately.
Quote from: Barzalene on September 26, 2008, 08:50:06 AM
Those of you thinking about giving Tuluk a real try, I have a little warning. This is what I found, your mileage may vary. Coming up from playing Nakis and Kuracis, I found I hated Tuluk at first. My first couple of weeks I rolled my eyes and sniffed indignantly and vowed that everything I read on the boards was true.
My point isn't that Tuluk's charm is elusive and you need to be super smart and dedicated to find it. I'm saying that can be elusive, and you don't want to give up on it too quick, if you don't get sucked in immediately.
It's also very likely you will be sucked in immediately.
It might simply be an acquired taste.
I'll liken it to dark. I hated the stuff for a long time, only tasting the bitterness of it, so I stuck to milk chocolate for the instant gratification. And damn, do I still love milk chocolate: it has a smoothness of texture that dark chocolate just can't match. But, I also learned to love dark chocolate after giving it just one last try. What changed? I learned to appreciate the more subtle aspects of its flavor, and now I can't get enough of it.
Well, I can't get enough of
any chocolate, but you get the idea and that probably makes the comparison even more apt, given the appellation "Crackageddon."
For what it is worth, I am enjoying myself in Tuluk right now and I just switched to a timezone seven hours off my usual. People are still around and stuff is still happening, player run events are cropping up all over recently and I love it.
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on September 26, 2008, 10:55:22 AM
It might simply be an acquired taste.
I was a pretty die-hard Tuluk-only rah-rah after I made my first character there and really got into things. It took me a few characters after that to really give Allanak a try...but then guess what...now I love Allanak too.
I wish everyone would give both places a solid, open-minded try.
I think what really works for me when I've got a new place I want to try is to identify a PC within that environment who looks like they'd be fun to play alongside, then create a character concept angled toward interacting with that particular PC. My theory about getting sucked into plots and fun is
still that it's PC relationships that really count; and if you've identified a PC who seems to be involved and you can tag along for the ride, you'll get a lot of fun out of it too.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 26, 2008, 12:02:38 PM
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on September 26, 2008, 10:55:22 AM
It might simply be an acquired taste.
I was a pretty die-hard Tuluk-only rah-rah after I made my first character there and really got into things. It took me a few characters after that to really give Allanak a try...but then guess what...now I love Allanak too.
I wish everyone would give both places a solid, open-minded try.
I think what really works for me when I've got a new place I want to try is to identify a PC within that environment who looks like they'd be fun to play alongside, then create a character concept angled toward interacting with that particular PC. My theory about getting sucked into plots and fun is still that it's PC relationships that really count; and if you've identified a PC who seems to be involved and you can tag along for the ride, you'll get a lot of fun out of it too.
I've yet to give Tuluk a really fair shake myself, but I've made a vow that my next character will be Tuluki.
Some of my favorite Tuluk-playing moments have involved innocuous insults followed by some random chick at the bar waying you to observe, "I can't believe you just said that to him." Makes me feel like a million bucks when I get it right.
Mostly, it's incredible to have a society in which there are norms, rules, and traditions to play from, which really can create inter-societal Allanak/Tuluk mishaps. It's so worryingly fun, and I appreciate helix's attempt to have people look at Tuluk's long history rather than stopping with the start of the Occupation.
Could I pull out helix's comment about the semi-permability of the castes? When I started digging into Tuluk's cultural docs, I had three things that jumped out as keys to Tuluki culture:
1. The faith in Muk (and Muk's "style" of leadership)
2. The cordiality between the noble/common castes.
3. The focus on strict castes
One of the things that has helped me define Tuluk is the dicotomy between a happy relation between castes and the impermability* of their boundaries. Sweethearts that they are, they'll give you a way to jump caste (a la, the Hlum), but provided you follow the rules. The procedures. Heck, there's even ways to kill people, provided you license for it. It's one of my favorite parts of Tuluk - that cold, bureaucratic control, with one example including the strict adherence to caste.
* I may have just made up that word.
Just an add-on thought to what Rairen posted about Hlum nobility...
I like that the existence of Hlum nobility highlights the point that in Tuluk, the worth/hard work of a person really does matter. This is a huge contrast with Allanak; in Allanak, nobles are nobles and they're better simply because they're nobles, Tekdamnit. In Tuluk, nobles were and still are literally "Chosen" by Muk because they are better, based on merit.
I'm not saying either system is better; I think they're both good and flavorful and right. I just love that they're different.
I'm a new player and I've tried Nak, I liked it there as well, but recently I decided to give Tuluk a shot, at first I missed 'Nak alot because it was all I knew from when I began playing here but I'm beginning to warm up to Tuluk and have found people to be quite helpful and keep you from wandering aimlessly depending on the situation you find yourself in. One thing I have found myself loving is the noble/commoner interaction.
So I have to say from a newbie standpoint and having tried Allanak and now Tuluk out at an early stage that I like them both for their different kind of roleplay and interactions.
:)
I'd never played in Tuluk, ever, when my PC got shanghaid there.
I've come to deeply appreciate the place and the RP.
Quote from: Kiri on September 26, 2008, 04:01:28 PM
I'd never played in Tuluk, ever, when my PC got shanghaid there.
Getting shanghaid is another valid way to get your PC to Tuluk and have plenty of IC reason for being completely clueless about the culture.
For newbies, how that
usually happens is that you get hired on as a hunter or crafter or merchant in Allanak by Salarr or Kadius, then they transfer the PC to Tuluk. You could potentially even request a transfer, if your PC has wanderlust and wants to "see the world."
For them who wants t' give Tuluk a good try, I'd say this be th' perfect time t' do so! Don't wait till we be havin' nay Chosens again an' that th' city be empty t' do 't, give 't a fair chance while everythin' (almost!) t' make Tuluk what be supposed t' be available.
(subtle arrr)
What's with the pirate talk?
Quote from: spicemustflow on September 26, 2008, 07:03:08 PM
What's with the pirate talk?
They missed ITLAPD (http://www.talklikeapirate.com/howto.html) by a scant margin.
I've played only a few Tuluki's, and I have to point out that all my Tuluki's ended up either leaving the city, or being stored.
I'd like to see some form of poorness, grunge, grit, turmoils of a horrible commoner life played out... everytime I've visited that seems to have been lacking. Which... is why I hardly play there and prefer Allanak.
Quote from: Attana on September 26, 2008, 08:07:13 PM
I've played only a few Tuluki's, and I have to point out that all my Tuluki's ended up either leaving the city, or being stored.
I'd like to see some form of poorness, grunge, grit, turmoils of a horrible commoner life played out... everytime I've visited that seems to have been lacking. Which... is why I hardly play there and prefer Allanak.
I think it's a valid criticism. I'm trying to think about what I've found there lately that relates to that, and to make a comparison to Nak, but, I'm kind of drawing a blank.
People do bring some of what Attana asks about into the main proper of Tuluk from time to time. Unfortunately, the main tavern is described as being clean, and in good shape, and -not- the type of place "those people" would hang out at, or be welcomed at. And the other taverns just aren't visited enough by any of the "nicer" people...so there is still that huge gaping chasm between the grunge, and everyone else, and the grunge are either driven out, disappeared out, or get stored out of Tuluk.
I often see grunge in Tuluk.
I usually am the grunge in Tuluk. It's a lot of fun.
The thing about the grunge in Tuluk is, it often gets swept under the rug. Everything stated above about appearances, strict castes, and in general the 'mindset' of Tulukis indicates that the true grunge pretends it doesn't exist somehow; be that voluntarily segregating their social interactions (moving in different circles than those lucky enough to be able to put on a semblance of cleanliness), or other IC-sensitive ways. "Grunge," as it has been termed, is very much in Tuluk, but outre (forgive my lack of accentuation) grunge is not, because it requires what amounts to tribal interaction.
When I've tried to play grungy roles in Tuluk, I was ICly treated like a child and I was retarded. Living off the players was also a no go as it was too easy to get food/sex/raw goods than to pay a nominal fee. Not cool.
Nearly all of my Tuluki characters, save for one, were grungy. Go to the commoner warrens sometime... you'll see grunge in the form of NPC's. The grunge is there and I'd like to see it represented by more players rather than everyone tending to go straight for the clean-cut blemish free bardic loving folk, is all I'm saying. I detest walking around Tuluk and seeing nothing but clean characters, with meticulously kept nails and hair and clothing, speaking like a well-educated noble rather than the commoner they are. Tribal mindset or inclination to cleanliness be damned, you're still a commoner, that of which more than likely doesn't have access to a bath to wash yourself within everyday, and more than likely don't have the 'sid to purchase your own water in such huge amounts as to make your own makeshift tub and water. - Let alone have anywhere -near- the resources the nobles do to be educated - even if there is a sense of cordiality between both castes.
One of the things that draws me to 'Nak is the massive amounts of nitty gritty, scar holding folks. To me it's a -true- representation of how a Zalanthan, no matter what city-state they're from, should look like. 'Nakki characters tend to portray the danger that this world really is more convincingly, as opposed to characters that I've been around and RPed with in Tuluk. Not to say that they're not there, and being played, just that I haven't encountered it there in my years of playing.
Things there today, are a far cry from what I first saw four years ago with my first ever character, but then again, that was a time when the Byn was active and with a good core of northern based folk. I'd like to actually see it active once again, to give a place for those "segregated" by the constraints of what's perceived to be the norm in the form of good looking, non-grungeified people, a place to go and gather and prove that those who play in the Tuluki area of the known world can be and do grunge again.
There is a distinguishable difference in cultures between 'Nak and Tuluk. And out of both of them, the happy, tree hugging hippies of the north just don't cut it for me. Though, I dig the whole be subtle about it concept, Tuluk is afterall the "artistic" city where the subtlety displayed in acts from insult to murder is applauded and cheered as an accomplishment and show, if everyone is being properly subtle about their likes and dislikes in those around them, and putting on a cheerful face about it... yes, you do come off as the happy, tree-hugging hippies of the north. It's the lure of the dangers of 'Nak, that are far more enticing to me. It doesn't take much to make a character in Tuluk and live out a long shelf life, whereas in 'Nak it takes real balls to brave a walk from one tavern to the next. Shit, it takes balls to even idle in the common dormitory of the Gaj.
All of this to not to say, however, that Tuluk isn't a city-state with awesome RPers and an equally awesome history. - I'm fairly certain of the latter, and hopeful about the former (don't kill me please, I make my judgments on not having visited much lately). It's all just my opinion and reasoning behind my preferring to not play there. I could just be biased because my first ever character was in 'Nak, and most of my proceeding characters were based in, on and around 'Nak. Then again, it could be because of the level of completely badass RP I see in 'Nak these days. I'm not adverse to giving Tuluk another go around, though I don't see it happening in the near future. Either way ...
/endrant
Editted to add: I admit, I didin't even read the entirety of the original posters post, or any of the extraordinarily long posts, written after. I mostly skimmed because reading that much about one subject bores me to tears. - With that said, feel free to skim or even skip over my post.
Quote from: Attana on September 27, 2008, 02:58:55 AM
stuff
This wasn't intended as a, "You should play in Tuluk!" post. This is a, "If you already play in Tuluk, here are some things to think about!" post.
And currently, I think the level of grit in Tuluk is remarkably high. There's plenty of non-perfect characters in Tuluk, and I think that trend has been on a steady decline in the past year or so.
Something I've noticed....
Get a drunken 'Nakki in any one of Tuluk's taverns, and the subtlety just melts away. The only difference between the scene in Tuluk and Allanak was that nobody would brawl. :(
Though maybe it's changed in the time I haven't been up there. -shrug-
On another note, it's amazing how many Tulukis know so much about 'Rinth. I can think of only running in to one character up there that couldn't identify the accent and mistook me for a funny talking member of a funny talking tribe.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on September 27, 2008, 06:01:15 AM
Something I've noticed....
Get a drunken 'Nakki in any one of Tuluk's taverns, and the subtlety just melts away. The only difference between the scene in Tuluk and Allanak was that nobody would brawl. :(
Though maybe it's changed in the time I haven't been up there. -shrug-
OMG. Best social experiment ever (or, er, one of them.) From what I've seen, any sort of drunk person (north, south, or tribal) causes interesting effects on the Tuluki norm.
Quote from: Attana on September 27, 2008, 02:58:55 AM
Nearly all of my Tuluki characters, save for one, were grungy. Go to the commoner warrens sometime... you'll see grunge in the form of NPC's. The grunge is there and I'd like to see it represented by more players rather than everyone tending to go straight for the clean-cut blemish free bardic loving folk, is all I'm saying.
That
was a long post.
I wanted to take issue with one thing. Even the grungy ones should love that bardic crap. Maybe they like their art grungier, but they should love their bards. That doesn't mean you the player has to enjoy it, or that your pc has to love every bard indiscriminately. In fact the more you like something the more discriminating you become.
Sorry to derail on a small point, but I think it's an important one. Think about it; there are people in America, that when you say, what kind of music do you like they'll airily say, oh anything, but rarely will someone say, I don't like music. And the more they like music the more likely they are to have really strong stylistic preferences.
Sorry to nitpic there. And if we want to argue bards (again) we should probably do it in another thread. My point is not liking art music in Tuluk is like having a Naki who thinks those Area shows are just too violent.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on September 27, 2008, 06:01:15 AM
On another note, it's amazing how many Tulukis know so much about 'Rinth. I can think of only running in to one character up there that couldn't identify the accent and mistook me for a funny talking member of a funny talking tribe.
There's been a huge influx of Allanaki refugees over the last few IG years. Word travels. I'm not from Great Britain but I'd recognize Liverpool in an accent when I heard it.
And a great many of the PCs currently there travel. I don't find it so surprising.
Quote from: helix on September 27, 2008, 05:20:08 AM
This wasn't intended as a, "You should play in Tuluk!" post. This is a, "If you already play in Tuluk, here are some things to think about!" post.
And currently, I think the level of grit in Tuluk is remarkably high. There's plenty of non-perfect characters in Tuluk, and I think that trend has been on a steady decline in the past year or so.
I never said it was and I never said it wasn't. To all of that. - I was remarking on what I've myself encountered in the form of certain aspects of Tuluki Roleplay, which I also pointed out wasn't much lately.
Quote from: Barzalene on September 27, 2008, 10:44:23 AM
I wanted to take issue with one thing. Even the grungy ones should love that bardic crap. Maybe they like their art grungier, but they should love their bards. That doesn't mean you the player has to enjoy it, or that your pc has to love every bard indiscriminately. In fact the more you like something the more discriminating you become.
And my post never mentioned a Tuluki not liking that
bardic crap. :P I completely agree that Tuluki's would love their bards, it's a part of their history after all. I've even once or twice encountered one or two -very- well played bards in Tuluk, was about three or so years ago, that
I enjoyed.
Quote from: Attana on September 26, 2008, 08:07:13 PM
I've played only a few Tuluki's, and I have to point out that all my Tuluki's ended up either leaving the city, or being stored.
I'd like to see some form of poorness, grunge, grit, turmoils of a horrible commoner life played out... everytime I've visited that seems to have been lacking. Which... is why I hardly play there and prefer Allanak.
I just started my first Tuluki PC since the pre-occupation time, and I tried to go the poor route... After spending 2-4 hours looking around Under Tuluk and the Warrens, I gave up trying to find "poor" clothes and went shopping in the GMH and tribal markets.
Now my PC really is poor, 'cause everything there cost about 100 'sid, but he's got some great... hunter gear. Then I saw the price of food and I realized that my PC will have to get a job or take up hunting/scavenging to survive.
Is there any coded support for "poor" roles in Tuluk that I just completely missed?
Quote from: Haze on September 27, 2008, 06:22:13 PM
Is there any coded support for "poor" roles in Tuluk that I just completely missed?
Clay grebber! Check around the Commons. There are also some cheap clothes in the Warrens, I think...but don't remember exactly.
Quote from: Attana on September 27, 2008, 06:21:42 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on September 27, 2008, 10:44:23 AM
I wanted to take issue with one thing. Even the grungy ones should love that bardic crap. Maybe they like their art grungier, but they should love their bards. That doesn't mean you the player has to enjoy it, or that your pc has to love every bard indiscriminately. In fact the more you like something the more discriminating you become.
And my post never mentioned a Tuluki not liking that bardic crap. :P I completely agree that Tuluki's would love their bards, it's a part of their history after all. I've even once or twice encountered one or two -very- well played bards in Tuluk, was about three or so years ago, that I enjoyed.
Sorry I misunderstood.
Alright.the rest of you, as you were. Move along. Nothing to see here.
Moved all of the derail to another thread. It's slightly related, but really, Tuluki roleplay is about more than one tavern.
Hah, Helix had the post dead-on, I think.
What I love about it is even though i love tuluk, I'm always the guy that's so capable people wish he had some political tact and was subtle. Because, well, I'm just not. Not in RL, and never IG. 3/4 of my characters worth even remembering have been in tuluk, but I'm always fucking shit up because that's just what I feel like I'd do. Like, if someone says something I don't like up north, it's just downhill for them unless they have a stronger position than me. I have a tendency to piss off nobles and superiors, and I love it. because if EVERYONE was subtle, well... Tuluk just would be, subtle. I like stirring shit up. What can I say? I know desertman does too.
In fact, I was thinking me and desertman were gonna make two unsubtle half-giants and just run around being so unsubtle that nobody in tuluk was subtle anymore. Because if I hear about how subtle tuluk is much more, I'm gonna take the subtle straight to allanak, and just subtle shit up.
The tribal market in Tuluk is really surprisingly nice. Whichever staffer handled it did a really good job..It has its own separate stable, tavern, places to get water or food. Obviously, since its a tribal 'market' there are plenty of places to buy or sell. It's entirely possible to live in there and not see the rest of Tuluk. No bards or Chosen seem to go there. The NPCs provide great atmosphere.
It really made Tuluk bearable for me, RP wise.
It would make sense to keep the 'grunge' off to the warrens, out of the way. People who insist on looking too miserable or downtrodden might be disappeared just so that the State could save face. Perhaps Tuluk -seems- wealthier on average because there is social pressure for it to seem that way (and seem a lot of other ways). I've always imagined that a very high value is put on looking better than you truly are if you're not doing so great, and muting things down a little if you are doing very well. The center is that great black hole of social conformity that you either disappear into, or get disappeared for not toeing the line.
Subtlety in Tuluk? Secrets. Secrets. Secrets.
Here is the classic Tuluki dilemma:
You find out your father is a magicker. No one else knows. Do you:
a) Cover it up, pretend you don't know and hope that no one finds out?
b) Turn him into the Templarate and risk them (and potentially others) knowing you had an abomination in the family?
c) Hire someone to kill him and risk that they find out and tell god knows who?
d) Kill your own father yourself and risk being disappeared for conducting an unregistered assassination or breaching the trust of your family or tribe?
e) Undergo a self-imposed exile from Tuluk?
If you witness a magickal event, you know you mustn't talk about it. You have to pretend this traumatic thing never happened. If you report it, maybe they'll think you're in league, or maybe they'll disappear you because you have too much knowledge now of magick.
Of course, magick here is the obvious 'I'm fucked' scenario, but there are many many more, and a Tuluki can live a life of silent fear through no direct fault of their own! Add the astounding reputation Tuluk has for spying on its own citizens and its citizens spying on one another, all the time, and keeping some of these deadly secrets can become a seriously pathological cultural phenomenon.
That's the Tuluk I love to see.
KIA
Holy shit. Everyone read what KIA said.
He hit the nail on the head.
Don't go crying to the Legion because something got stolen. Not only is it -not- a big deal if you couldn't catch them, but they are going to think you are just a whiner, and disappear you to save face.
READ WHAT KIA SAID.
Quote from: KIA on November 25, 2008, 01:59:18 AM
It would make sense to keep the 'grunge' off to the warrens, out of the way. People who insist on looking too miserable or downtrodden might be disappeared just so that the State could save face. Perhaps Tuluk -seems- wealthier on average because there is social pressure for it to seem that way (and seem a lot of other ways). I've always imagined that a very high value is put on looking better than you truly are if you're not doing so great, and muting things down a little if you are doing very well. The center is that great black hole of social conformity that you either disappear into, or get disappeared for not toeing the line.
Subtlety in Tuluk? Secrets. Secrets. Secrets.
Here is the classic Tuluki dilemma:
You find out your father is a magicker. No one else knows. Do you:
a) Cover it up, pretend you don't know and hope that no one finds out?
b) Turn him into the Templarate and risk them (and potentially others) knowing you had an abomination in the family?
c) Hire someone to kill him and risk that they find out and tell god knows who?
d) Kill your own father yourself and risk being disappeared for conducting an unregistered assassination or breaching the trust of your family or tribe?
e) Undergo a self-imposed exile from Tuluk?
If you witness a magickal event, you know you mustn't talk about it. You have to pretend this traumatic thing never happened. If you report it, maybe they'll think you're in league, or maybe they'll disappear you because you have too much knowledge now of magick.
Of course, magick here is the obvious 'I'm fucked' scenario, but there are many many more, and a Tuluki can live a life of silent fear through no direct fault of their own! Add the astounding reputation Tuluk has for spying on its own citizens and its citizens spying on one another, all the time, and keeping some of these deadly secrets can become a seriously pathological cultural phenomenon.
That's the Tuluk I love to see.
KIA
Tuluk is all the bad parts about Germany and Russia's past, combined into one.
And the 'good' parts of Rome and America.
And the artsy-fartsy parts of Europe.
Quote from: Reiloth on November 25, 2008, 03:28:06 AM
Tuluk is all the bad parts about Germany and Russia's past, combined into one.
And the 'good' parts of Rome and America.
And the artsy-fartsy parts of Europe.
So it is sort've like Quebec?
I think KIA made some very good points about how what it means to be subtle in Tuluk.
Quote from: KIA on November 25, 2008, 01:59:18 AM
Of course, magick here is the obvious 'I'm fucked' scenario, but there are many many more, and a Tuluki can live a life of silent fear through no direct fault of their own! Add the astounding reputation Tuluk has for spying on its own citizens and its citizens spying on one another, all the time, and keeping some of these deadly secrets can become a seriously pathological cultural phenomenon.
That's the Tuluk I love to see.
It's the inherent, brilliant flaw with Tuluk. So, so much fun to get into the mindset. So frickin' hard to let other people in on what you're doing, when you're acting as part of a seriously pathological cultural phenomenon (emphasis on pathological).
Quoted for how delightfully -and accurately - it was described. ;D
In relation to the current angle of the thread, the new guy feels the paranoia factor is definitely there. Doing something bad will make you feel eyes everywhere. I think this is an accurate assessment of Tuluk.
Tuluk also seems to follow the cultural model of Romans on the principle of good/bad. If a person who was 'good' all their life does something 'bad' (i.e. a prominent agent of house Uppitysmuchnuck turns out to be a MAGICKER!?!?!) that person was always bad, and doing good things to hide their badness. There is no pardon for badness. This model is cool, by the way, from a role play perspective, because modern culture often tries to use dogma to convince you otherwise.
New guy's view in relation to the OP.
The partisan system seems to be pretty strong. A lot of people who on meeting 1, were quite cold, by meeting 5 agreed on a 'safe' activity, and by meeting 10 are more or less willing to work on a understood basis.
Interaction between castes is very, VERY VERY character dependent. Some commoners have turned their nose up at me while other nobles have chatted and shared some brewsky. But yeah, nobles are better. Everyone knows that. ;D
I like Tuluk. The design is beautiful to read. It is interesting to explore. The mentality of a citizen can be fascinating. The walk through the city is endless. It is... just so very boring to rp. At least for me. I think it is the subtlety and quietness that gets it for me.
For example, in any of those disappearances: (this is a very crappy example)
Bard A offends Noble B.
Noble B hires Assassin C.
Assassin C kills Bard A.
End of story.
Or the even worse case, (for me):
Bard A did something to offend Templar D.
Templar D disappears Bard A.
End of story.
No one would chat about it. No one would even ask where Bard A has gone to. In most cases, most rp pretending nothing happened and Bard A never existed. If I am Bard A's acquantaince, my questions will not be answered and there will be forever silence. If I am the bard's best friend, I will be too scared to breath a word and still there will be forever silence. It does not seem to spread much rp. The result of the disappearance strengthens the background and adds nothing to the everyday rp that I can see. (people disappearing is hardly new)
Sure there would be a lot of internal rp that make for excellent solo rp. I enjoy solo rp too, at times. But... I want to interact and share my character's moments with other interesting characters. That is why I rp on a MUD instead of writing a book by myself.
Everything has to be super nice on the outside. It would take months, if not years, to develop relationships/friendships that hold enough trust to share those horrifying moments which make for stunningly fun rp. On average, few people can actually keep characters alive for long enough to enjoy it. The same fun can be rewarded with much less effort in other areas of the game.
Tuluk has many layers, but most of the time it is very difficult to dig through all these layers and bypass the average 'fetch this' plot, 'kill that animal' plot, or Tek forbid, 'write a song/story' plot. (I am one of those who cannot stand performances of any kind. But I always try to appreciate the bard's ooc effort, so I just switch off oocly to read, turn back in a hour or two to catch the bard finishing and rp how absolutely overjoyed/moved my char is, or explain that 10 minutes inactivity is me being stunned by brilliance).
So after all that, here is my question: what is the trick for you all who enjoy Tuluk to get immersed into the plots and fun /quickly/? (Say, in a couple of weeks of rp?) How do you see pass the thin veil (or thick fog) of niceness/inactivity to find the gems?
Hmm, there is a lot I'd like to say to try and answer your question Melody, but it's difficult to figure out where to begin, and how best to put it into words.
To keep things simple, and try to avoid rambling; I think that the best way to quickly get involved in deeper plots and go beyond the casual "Hi how are you" bar RP ... is to create the plots yourself.
In most cases, I think that because of the high number of new characters who seem to go just as quickly as they came, the players and staff running the plots are hesitant to rope a person in and give them a vital part of a story until that person has shown that they can keep their character around for a bit without dieing/storing or just not logging in anymore.
Rather than waiting for people to notice that you have been hanging out at the sanctuary for a RL month, and obviously aren't going anywhere anytime soon, I would suggest that you come up with some goals for your own character and start using other characters to try and acheive them. Make the goals far reaching, requiring many small steps to get there. The "go kill that animal" plot you mentioned isn't such a drag if there is something to follow it up afterwards, and tie it into a larger story.
In doing this, you'll probably also notice that people will take note of your activity, and as such, start to involve you in their own stories as well. It's all a big chain reaction, the more activity you generate, the more activity you'll start to see in everything and everyone around you :)
To be honest, I think that this applies to anyone anywhere in the game, not just Tuluk, but this is the recipie that's worked for me. Hope it helps.
Quote from: Melody on December 22, 2008, 08:48:32 AM
For example, in any of those disappearances: (this is a very crappy example)
Bard A offends Noble B.
Noble B hires Assassin C.
Assassin C kills Bard A.
End of story.
Or the even worse case, (for me):
Bard A did something to offend Templar D.
Templar D disappears Bard A.
End of story.
To me, this is one flaw with the role-play. Too many PCs "disappear" and suddenly "disappear" is as flat as "kill" of 'nak. The "mask" becomes too thin... no real layers have a chance to develop.
The truth about bards and artisans -- they can weild lots of power.
Noble A offends Noble B
Noble B hires Bard 1 to mock Noble A and promote Noble B
Now everyone treats Noble B well and Noble A poorly
Noble A decides to hire Bard 2 to drag down Bard 1's name and in doing so, Noble B
Just goes on and on...
Quote from: My 2 sids on December 22, 2008, 10:55:58 AM
To me, this is one flaw with the role-play. Too many PCs "disappear" and suddenly "disappear" is as flat as "kill" of 'nak. The "mask" becomes too thin... no real layers have a chance to develop.
Sorry, but ... I couldn't understand what you were trying to say here ???
I believe he is saying that "disappear" is suddenly synonymous with "kill", and there is no longer that layer of "Oh, well maybe they're just out on an extended hunt."
What 2sids said is correct though. Hire a bard to talk up Noble B, and degrade Noble A. If they are -good- RPers, they aren't going to hire an assassin just because a bard told a story. Otherwise, they shouldn't be nobles. Bards are the KEY to political power, and I REALLY wish people exercised it more.
Quote from: My 2 sids on December 22, 2008, 10:55:58 AM
To me, this is one flaw with the role-play. Too many PCs "disappear" and suddenly "disappear" is as flat as "kill" of 'nak. The "mask" becomes too thin... no real layers have a chance to develop.
We equate a PCs absence to death OOCly... when ICly they could be in hiding, out on a trip, having sex in their partners apartment, or just hates you and doesn't want to see you.
If you are seeing disappearance as death, more that likely it is YOU and not your PC. PCs die all the time. I have a friend who had the misfortune of going through FIVE yesterday.
More than likely, even if PCs ARE disappearing without a trace it is more than likely storage or good old hunting deaths.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on December 22, 2008, 01:15:43 PM
Quote from: My 2 sids on December 22, 2008, 10:55:58 AM
To me, this is one flaw with the role-play. Too many PCs "disappear" and suddenly "disappear" is as flat as "kill" of 'nak. The "mask" becomes too thin... no real layers have a chance to develop.
If you are seeing disappearance as death, more that likely it is YOU and not your PC. PCs die all the time. I have a friend who had the misfortune of going through FIVE yesterday.
Wait. What? Someone went through five PCs in one day? They'd have to be dying immediately after their two hour grace period was up.
I had three in one day once... a long lived PC died, then my next one dies shortly after my respawn time was up... my third one lasted six hours.
I quit playing for a few months after the third death in one day and missed the gith invasion. :(
Quote from: musashi on December 22, 2008, 09:44:16 AM
To be honest, I think that this applies to anyone anywhere in the game, not just Tuluk, but this is the recipie that's worked for me. Hope it helps.
Although that is true, start plots, have fun, be interesting. I can have no problem with it in, say, Allanak, or even Red Storm. At week 1 I am getting to know people, at week 4 I can be in the thick of plots. But I think I need to adopt a very different style in Tuluk to have fun. I don't know what I am doing wrong with Tuluk. Maybe I just have to become nicer irl to play in Tuluk? Or does my character designs lack a certain spark that attracts Tuluki people to trust them? (trouble is my middle name, I have to tone down?) It is just wrong when my char can be in Tuluk but all the plots my char involved in are in elseworld and I am having a long distance relationship with the plots. How do you become involved in Tuluk?
Or maybe it is just not meant to be? :(
I believe that as long as you can manage to keep your characters alive for a decent amount of time, and are actively engaging other characters, and involving people in some kind of activity above and beyond bar RP, things should just fall into place ...
Can you be more specific about the nature of the problem you're having? Or why the above isn't working?
I think the inherent problem in your situation, Melody, is that you are seeking trust in order to become fully involved in the deep seeded plots of Tuluk.
Instead, I would suggest asking people if they need help with any of their projects. Have lofty goals. Have mundane, day to day goals. Become parts of clans in the city, and spend your time obeying/disobeying orders from your superiors. Approach Nobles and ask if they need a Partisan. Approach several nobles, and watch as a behind-the-scenes bidding war occurs.
Trust is not easily given in Tuluk. Tulukis are very similar to elves in this respect. Of all the characters I had in Tuluk, even after knowing another character for maybe 30 days played, whenever they invited me over to an apartment I didn't have the key to, I consciously IRL and IG thought "There is a chance that they were hired to kill me, or hired to take me to their apartment so someone else could kill me". The fact that assassination is an 'artform' in Tuluk makes people hesitant to walk into a closed space with someone else, in my opinion. People do not want to get very close to others, because the longest lived characters in Tuluk have been around for long enough to see half of their friends die or get disappeared. It is a long road, but a rewarding one.
Tuluk is not nearly as black and white as Allanak. And to be honest, I have seen more 'subtle behind the scenes' shit happen in Allanak than Tuluk at times. Especially in the 'rinth. A lot of Tuluks plots and 'storylines' have taken years to develop, and are hard to cash in on at day one.
As musashi has put:
-Be public, and assert who your character is, whether they be a criminal, a lumberjack, a bard, or a merchant house employee.
-Create friendships, and create enemies. If someone is saying something you disagree with, try to make fun of them in a complimentary way. Start spreading rumors about them -- Blame them for things that you've done that look bad. Say someone is overforesting -- It was obviously Amos, the stupid lumberjack who brags about how much wood he brings in every day. Is it true, neccesarily? No. But it serves your own means to an end.
-Approach Nobles and Templars about potential partisanship. When you are a partisan, you can pretty much carry on with your day to day without having to adhere to a training schedule, or a quota you have to fill for say House Kadius. Instead -- You have specific plots your Noble or Templar assigns you with, a tithe to pay perhaps from any commission you do outside of your relationship, and maybe they'll even pay for your rent. Every partsian situation is different, multi-faceted, and really drives forward the political 'games' of Tuluk on a discreet level. Say Noble A notices Noble B has quite a few Partisans, and is getting quite a bit done because of all the people he/she has on their 'team'. Noble B might concentrate his efforts on turning some of those partisans against Noble A, or paying them to mess up their jobs, or mess up other fellow partisan's jobs. Noble B might, in turn, have a very popular bard as a Partisan, and instructs the bard to spend most of their time slandering Noble A's name, or choice partisans in their employ.
-Try to seek surface level friendships, instead of 'I would die for you, and guard you while you sleep' friendships. In a world of murder, corruption, and betrayal, that level trust should be -very- difficult to find, regardless of where you are from. Instead -- Find your drinking buddies, the guy you have a spice addiction with, the whore you've taken a liking to but still charges you, and the kid who looks up to you because you got a scar a long time ago from an ax-wound. If there aren't any of those characters around, play them.
Reiloth put it into words much better than I could have.
Quote from: Reiloth on December 23, 2008, 12:43:32 AM
Staffs
Thank you for the help, everyone.
Given the subtlety in Tuluk, I find the deep seeded plots do need some measure of trust before it can be rped out. But anyway, having gone pass 4 irl months for my character, I still find myself in the shallow end of plots in Tuluk. My character has enemies, friends, acquantainces, drinking buddies, shopping buddies, whatever buddies, connections, spies, criminal links, lawful links, and everything else in between. They just don't happen in Tuluk!
I can't seem to make it work. Maybe it is just not meant to be. :( I dunno what I am doing wrong, I must be lacking something essentially Tuluki. I will go read the doc for the 100th time...
Make your own ;D
I've noticed a LOT of people dying in Tuluk recently, thus it means plots are now taking longer, since even those little people can be important.
That being said, there's also a LOT of awesome new chars that I've seen about. So, it's kinda in a limbo land right now.
Quote from: Melody on January 12, 2009, 05:17:18 AM
Quote from: Reiloth on December 23, 2008, 12:43:32 AM
Staffs
Thank you for the help, everyone.
Given the subtlety in Tuluk, I find the deep seeded plots do need some measure of trust before it can be rped out. But anyway, having gone pass 4 irl months for my character, I still find myself in the shallow end of plots in Tuluk. My character has enemies, friends, acquantainces, drinking buddies, shopping buddies, whatever buddies, connections, spies, criminal links, lawful links, and everything else in between. They just don't happen in Tuluk!
I can't seem to make it work. Maybe it is just not meant to be. :( I dunno what I am doing wrong, I must be lacking something essentially Tuluki. I will go read the doc for the 100th time...
How big of a goal do you have for your character, whether or not you think s/he can accomplish it, and how will you go about accomplishing it? (rhetorical question) That usually helps to get into the larger plots, if not start them.
A genuine question though. What are the deep seeded plots you are thinking about? If it's the overturning of Houses or destroying secret cults, those would naturally take quite a time. Slandering Nobles and their partisans can be done in a couple days, (again, depends on the players and their times IG). I think it would be easier to answer your question if the expectations you had were clear. And most likely, from the sounds of it, it's just that there's a lack of dedicated players in Tuluk to develop your network of relationships there.
I only take issue with the part at the very bottom.
There is not a lack of dedicated Tuluki characters around in my opinion. I can think of no less than 16 active players who have had their characters around for more than a couple months IRL, and are on at least every other day as far as I've been able to see. And a good chunk of those people are folks in positions of power/influence within the city, so I think that the chance for good interaction is deffienently there.
There is not a lack of dedicated Tuluki players.
Make your own plots. Create the conflict you want to see. Tell that half-elf his mother was a whore, and his father was an elf. Tell that unafilliated commoner you think her titties look nice, and you would like to fondle them in broad daylight. Tell Clint he jipped you on your glass of wine, and owes you another one. Interact with vNPC family members. Interact with PC family members.
Don't sit at a table by yourself.
Don't be afraid of approaching people, unless you have reason to, or it is a character flaw that you are a reject of society (Have fun!)
To get ahead in life, in Tuluk: blame everyone else for your own faults, and claim all of the reward for their hard work.
Quote from: Reiloth on January 13, 2009, 12:17:41 AM
To get ahead in life, in Tuluk: blame everyone else for your own faults, and claim all of the reward for their hard work.
I try! Really I do! But everyone else claims the rewards first!
I want them dead, but I can't afford it. Its hard to get a bounty on Muk Utep. For some reason, Tek just doesn't need 'sid I guess.
Quote from: Clearsighted on December 22, 2008, 09:26:54 PM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on December 22, 2008, 01:15:43 PM
Quote from: My 2 sids on December 22, 2008, 10:55:58 AM
Cool Stuffz!
Stuffz!
More Stuffz!
I went through four in one day. Was amazing how quickly I kept getting approved. I got one them approved before I could log into my mail after sending it in.
Was a rather sad day... Just kept getting some lame crap happen.
Bulllllllllshit. You suicided.
I'd have to try my hardest to die even twice in one day, and I normally play like a god damned masochist on heroin.